Quicktime Reference [Archive]

Dave French

10-04-2007, 09:55 AM

Hi,

I just have a few questions I was hoping someone could help me out with.

1. Regarding the Quicktime Reference files that are created with Quick Red. Are these files suitable for online? What is the compression ratio of that file? Are all the reference files (2K, 1K, .5K, .25K) compressed the same amount or does the compression increase? I know Quicktime is a compressed file format but I'm not sure the amount of compression in your average Quicktime file and I'm also not sure if those Quicktime Reference Files would have the same kind of compression.

2. I know some people are taking their Red footage in Shake and converting to ProRes? I don't imagine ProRes can read the R3D file from the Red camera, so do they use the Quicktime Reference files in Shake and convert those to ProRes?

3. The outputs on the camera. Are the 4:4:4 out and the 4:2:2 out compressed images (like the quicktimes) ? I'm just curious what these are like as far as quality goes.

I appreciate any input. Thanks.

Dave

M Most

10-04-2007, 11:14 AM

Hi,

Regarding the Quicktime Reference files that are created with Quick Red. Are these files suitable for online? What is the compression ratio of that file?

A Quicktime reference file is only a pointer to the original data file. It has no compression or actual image data of any kind.

Chris Kenny

10-04-2007, 11:30 AM

1. The QuickTime reference movies are so called because no new data is actually created -- they're tiny files which simply reference the actual R3D files. As such, there isn't any additional compression on top of the REDCODE RAW compression that exists in the original footage. (QT, by the way, can support uncompressed in various formats.)

As far as quality goes, currently the QuickTime reference movies are essentially preview quality -- they're intended mostly for quick offline work. It sounds like Red plans to offer the ability to create QuickTime reference movies that provide higher quality data in the future, but these probably won't play back in real-time.

2. My understanding (which could be wrong, since I don't have my camera yet and don't have access to Red's software) is that currently people are generally producing ProRes from the QuickTime reference movies (don't need Shake for that; any app that can open an export QT movies can do it). But once once RedCine is out, it should be able to export to any QuickTime codec on the machine at whatever quality you want. In other words, you'll be able to export ProRes from a full-quality decode of the R3D, rather than just a preview quality decode.

3. Red doesn't actually record in 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 (see this thread (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5067)). Red footage recorded on-board is compressed about 12:1 with a proprietary wavelet compression algorithm called RECODE RAW.

Dave French

10-04-2007, 01:01 PM

So people are creating Pro Res media for online from preview quality Proxy files?

Doesn't seem right. Or am I missing something?

Dave

Dave French

10-04-2007, 01:03 PM

Or does it just use the R3D to create the Pro Res?

Dave

Chris Kenny

10-04-2007, 04:15 PM

There aren't really idependant proxy files. There's just the R3D... but it can be decoded at different quality levels. Decoding REDCODE RAW data at different quality levels is possible for two reasons.

First, REDCODE is a wavelet codec. Wavelet codecs make it computationally cheap to extract fractional resolutions. So, if you've got a 4096x2048 wavelet-encoded image, you can very easily pull, say, a 1024x512 image right out of it (without having to decode the full resolution data and scale it down).

Second, Red is capturing RAW bayer sensor data. (See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_sensor) for an explanation.) This data must be processed through a demosaic algorithm to reconstruct a normal RGB image. There are many algorithms that can be used for this, some being much more computationally intensive (and providing much better image quality) than others. When playing back REDCODE RAW data though the QuickTime reference movies, a very simple algorithm is used, which allows for real-time playback but doesn't deliver the best possible image.

(Red has said they'll offer better quality though QuickTime later. Right now the only way to get the best quality is to render out of RedAlert to DPX or TIFF. Or to render out through Assimilate's SCRACH product.)

Cüneyt Kaya

10-04-2007, 06:19 PM

chris, will you do a summary again in your blog ( or in this forum, so it turns yellow)?:
"that is raw...
raw means...
you can do this..."
you will use it here ( workflow)

vs.
How common HD works
"HD is...
HD can be 10 bit
Log / lin means
RGB/ etc is
you wil you it here...(workflow)

This was discussed in severel threads like
cineform 4k...
RGB/LUT/and ???
4:4:4

and i think avid has a good explanation of HD

Stephen Gentle

10-04-2007, 07:19 PM

So people are creating Pro Res media for online from preview quality Proxy files?

Doesn't seem right. Or am I missing something?

Dave

If people want to deliver on ProRes, I assume that they will create them from the RAW files in RedCine. Once Final Cut has REDCODE support though, I think that you'll be able to set that to full quality, and then export or transcode to ProRes there.

Chris Kenny

10-04-2007, 08:56 PM

chris, will you do a summary again in your blog

I'm actually working on a gigantic blog post giving a complete overview of RED, from the sensor to the desktop workflow. It will probably be up tomorrow (I think I'll have enough time to finish it tonight).

Edit: Post (http://www.indie4k.com/archives/66) is up. (Well, the first part.)

Rob Lohman

10-05-2007, 05:54 AM

I wouldn't say the QuickTime reference movies are preview quality. It depends on the material and your output resolution / format. I would say they are of a very good quality, but not ultra-high quality.

That will change in the near future...

Dave French

10-05-2007, 06:44 AM

Thanks for all the replies!

So will Pro Res media created from RedCine be better quality than Pro Res media created using a 2K Quicktime Reference file and doing the conversion in Final Cut? If Red is using a simple algorithm to create those Quicktime Reference files, does that affect the quality of the Pro Res file that Final Cut would create using those Reference Files to direct the extraction/comversion from the R3D file?

Thanks
Dave

Rob Lohman

10-05-2007, 07:29 AM

Depends on your footage Dave. As always, run tests yourself to see what works or doesn't work for you.

Dave French

10-09-2007, 08:21 AM

I don't have access to RedCine (is it even out yet?) so I'm unable to run tests.

Dave

Rob Lohman

10-09-2007, 03:34 PM

It's available when you get the camera. At that point you can run tests and compare. Sorry about the confusion.

Dave French

10-10-2007, 10:19 AM

So there is no information available about the image quality between the two methods?

Rob Lohman

10-11-2007, 02:47 AM

Sorry about the lack of information, some more is available in this post I made: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=96379#post96379

Basically the code is a high-quality one, but it does not yet do a proper down conversion, so you may see some aliasing / stair stepping.

But this depends on your footage, the quality needed, output codec & resolution and delivery format etc.

The highest quality at the moment is out of RED ALERT or REDCINE

HTH,

Mark Allen

10-20-2007, 02:15 PM

Rob - does this mean that if someone wnats to finish ProRes - which might meant he would want to skip an offline step and just start editing at prores -t hen they would want to make their first step Exporting everything out as tiff or DPX and then converting those (with QTpro or AE) to Pro Res files?

To make sure I'm being clear - it would mean NOT using the reference QT provided as the export source.

Correct?

Noah Kadner

10-20-2007, 04:42 PM

I've been looking at ProRes in FCP and cannot seem to get it to work without a gamma shift between paused and playback. I tried setting the Enable Final Cut Studio color compatibility switch in QuickTime player but this didn't seem to have an effect.

These are ProRes 2K created by first exporting 2K Tif from Red Alert then exporting to 2K ProRes in QuickTime Player.

-Noah

Michael Schrengohst

10-20-2007, 05:18 PM

I think you get the glitch in 2K - try a 1080p sequence and see if
you get the same result.

Noah Kadner

10-20-2007, 05:28 PM

Appears to be ProRes related- same clip sent to AIC in 2K works like a charm(well relatively speaking)- still a slight shift but nowhere near like the one in ProRes. The gamma shift is the same in 1K or 2K when using ProRes.

-Noah

Mark Allen

10-20-2007, 08:01 PM

Noah - I'm testing right now and not seeing a shift. I am aware of the shift you speak of though I've seen it before. I did a non prores format once in photoJPG and it was a bit of a nightmare with that - and it continued to be trouble.

It normally does this when you don't conform to what it wants.

I just ran through RedAlert to 4k tiff to 2k ProRes (using 444 color filtering and crop if necessary after squeezing to HD). Then just dropped into FCP

Noah Kadner

10-21-2007, 08:15 AM

Mark-

That might be my issue, I've been doing 2K tiffs. let me try again at 4K.

Noah

Noah Kadner

10-21-2007, 08:39 AM

UPDATE- still seeing the shift. My workflow is:

Load .R3D in Red Alert!
Profile in Rec 709 gamma.
Export to 4K TIF sequence
Open as Image Sequence in QuickTime Player.
Export as 2K ProRes HQ with Chroma Filtering.
Open in FCP.
Get gamma shift from pause to playback.

-Noah

Mark Allen

10-21-2007, 12:07 PM

It would be great if someone else could chime in here.

If you like post a 1 second clip on your server (or I will provide you a link to mine - just PM me) and I'll see if I'm seeing the same on your footage because right now I'm wondering about your FCP settings. There is a setting I believe which relates to this quality in still vs. playback.

Nick Shaw

10-21-2007, 01:51 PM

Rob Lohman

10-23-2007, 01:16 AM

Mark Allen

10-23-2007, 03:34 AM

My offer to examine a few seconds is still open. My gut says it's an FCP setting thing or the file is non standard geometrically (pixel aspect or stretch).

Noah Kadner

10-23-2007, 08:56 AM

Noah: just to be clear, if you export to ProRes and you see gamma shifts on pause / play then that is an issue with the ProRes codec and/or FCP (since you're no longer working with REDCODE).

Just making sure we're all talking about the same thing....

That's correct- however I don't see this shift with material derived from other sources to ProRes so there could be a relation in there somewhere.

Noah

Noah Kadner

10-23-2007, 09:06 AM

My offer to examine a few seconds is still open. My gut says it's an FCP setting thing or the file is non standard geometrically (pixel aspect or stretch).

Sure I can send the R3d- where to?

-Noah

Noah Kadner

10-23-2007, 09:16 AM

Do you still see the shift if all overlays (timecode, safety, range check etc) are switched off in the canvas?

There is a gamma shift quirk in FCP with some codecs which are not RT enabled. Since I believe ProRes is only RT enabled at standard video sizes, this might explain it. I'm not in my edit suite at the moment, so can't test it.

I did a version with all overlays off- same thing. Might be a graphics card issue as well. This is on my MacBook Pro though I see the same issue on a desktop machine which is a G5.

Noah

Noah Kadner

10-23-2007, 09:21 AM

Had a chance to do a recording here:

http://www.highroadproductions.com/red/fcp01.mov

First timeline is sent from 2K tiff to Apple Intermediate Codec. Second is to ProRes. And yes I'm running low on batteries.

Noah

Mark Allen

10-23-2007, 11:34 AM

Sure I can send the R3d- where to?

I PM'd you an FTP.

Kip Hewitt

10-23-2007, 08:11 PM

I did a version with all overlays off- same thing. Might be a graphics card issue as well. This is on my MacBook Pro though I see the same issue on a desktop machine which is a G5.

Noah

Hello fellas. Is the REDCODE Quicktime component compatible with a PowerPC G5 system, or do I have to be on an Intel machine to actually view my footage in Quicktime?

I have a new Mac Book here which works fine (though slow) and 2 beefed up G5's that I would love to be able to incorporate into my RED workflow. I have installed the QT Component but I am not able to get a picture. Is there something I'm missing?

Noah, are you able to view REDCODE footage on your G5?

Thanks.

Mark Allen

10-23-2007, 08:12 PM

Hi 99,

I think intel is required for redcode.

There is always the chance I'm wrong, so you might wait for a more official answer. But - there's the quick instant answer.

Kip Hewitt

10-23-2007, 08:28 PM

Hey Mark. Thanks for chiming in. Yeah, I was pretty sure that REDCODE was an intel only option too until I read Noah's post about his G5 working. Type O maybe? I hope not. I was really wishing to get a few more years out of these G5's.

If Quicktime can play Divx and Avi and whatever else, why not REDCODE?

CJ Roy

10-23-2007, 08:35 PM

Can't get my Quad G5 to view the QT proxies here either. Would love some sort of PPC compatibility.

Gunleik Groven

10-23-2007, 08:36 PM

Redcode is not Intel

RedCine (and I guess RedAlert) is...

G

Kip Hewitt

10-23-2007, 09:59 PM

Redcode is not Intel

RedCine (and I guess RedAlert) is...

G

So does that mean Quicktime on a PPC IS able to play REDCODE footage?

If the answer is yes, then do you have any idea why it is not working for me?

Thank you.

Mark Allen

10-23-2007, 10:21 PM

99... Did you install the redcode quicktime component into your Library > Quicktime folder?

Kip Hewitt

10-23-2007, 11:00 PM

Yes. I dropped it right into the Library/Quicktime folder. The same as I had done before on my MacBook Intel Laptop. Which works fine. But on my 2 PPC G5's I get nothing but a White screen and the old missing codec error message "Quicktime is unable to play this file type go to Apple.com to download..."

dino g

10-23-2007, 11:36 PM

redcode is mac intel only

redcine is windows xp only. and not available to anyone except a few high end post houses in hollywood/LA and nyc.

Mark Allen

10-23-2007, 11:51 PM

okay - so my original statement is true. I remember people saying you'd need an intel to run it.

I believe upon it's public beta release though, RedCine will also work on the mac intel machine.

Kip Hewitt

10-24-2007, 03:18 PM

I got in touch with the good folks at RED tech support today and they verified with me that Redcode will not currently work with anything but an Intel based mac.

But they did say that it was their goal for all computers to be able to view Redcode through Quicktime. Of course they couldn't say when that would happen but it's good news nonetheless.

I guess I can push off that $4K Mac Pro upgrade for another couple of weeks at least.