Request: Please make SSD the default module

[Shawn Nelson]

From what I've gathered:
-Red drives and Red Ram are EOL and no more are to be made
-Red 16gb CF is the last Red CF to be made
-SSD is the only media fast enough to be used on Epic's HDR and high speed data modes.

In light of these developments, it seems that it makes no sense to ship the EpicX brain with CF being the default module. That used to make sense, back when there was going to be a 64gb card (which was killed off without explanation).

Unless I'm missing something here, it seems SSD for Epic is the ONLY choice, with CF only good for Red1 and Scarlet.

[Tai Wah Lim]

I second that. Lim

[Jeff Kieffer]

Triple that.
J

[Martin Weiss]

Quadrophonia that ;)

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

fifthioplihopola that!

[noah newtown]

or buy 2-3ssd´s for x.xxx$ and get a "free upgrade"!

[Eren Ozkural]

Wait, the 64gb CF cards have been axed?
Bummer.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Even with 64GB CF, it is questionable whether they could support even 5:1.

[David Battistella]

Thanks with this useful post with pertinent information Shawn. It probably saved me going through reams of noise.

I wonder what the extra cost will be. Too bad teh CF card is obsolete for future RED products.

Oh well.

David

[Jay A. Kelley]

Well I think we need to know the new price of the Epic if this is going to be the default module on it.

I'm sure we were not all expecting them to just put it on there and keep the price the same... Right?

Jay

[David Battistella]

I'm sure we were not all expecting them to just put it on there and keep the price the same... Right?

Jay


I don't know. Did anyone know about this when the stage 2 deposit happened?

I am sure they will offer it as an "extra" at an "upgrade" price.

RED does what is fair. They are holding our money and I know they respect their customers.

Most of us will pay whatever they ask.

David

[Paul Leeming]

Jay, it should probably be the same or similar price to manufacture as the CF side module. Without knowing specifics, I'd hazard a guess that the root interface internally is probably still SATA as with the Red One. The added base cost of the physical module over that of the Red One is due to the buttons, LEMO monitor connector and wiring etc as Jarred mentioned a while ago.

So making it the default would actually not mean any necessary increase in price over the CF option, unless the Red SSD receptacle somehow uses much more expensive hardware than the CF receptacle.

As I posted in a previous poll thread, I too would like to see the SSD side module be the default shipping module with Epic Stage 2 and the CF module offered as an option. It just makes sense!

Cheers from Tokyo,

Paul

[Meryem Ersoz]

yes, please.

[Vance Colvig]

Will there still be a 16 pin RedRaid connector available so I can use my hard drives externally if I wish? Hope I have that option.

[Michael Hastings]

Jay, it should probably be the same or similar price to manufacture as the CF side module. Without knowing specifics, I'd hazard a guess that the root interface internally is probably still SATA as with the Red One. The added base cost of the physical module over that of the Red One is due to the buttons, LEMO monitor connector and wiring etc as Jarred mentioned a while ago.

So making it the default would actually not mean any necessary increase in price over the CF option, unless the Red SSD receptacle somehow uses much more expensive hardware than the CF receptacle.

As I posted in a previous poll thread, I too would like to see the SSD side module be the default shipping module with Epic Stage 2 and the CF module offered as an option. It just makes sense!

Cheers from Tokyo,

Paul

I agree that it shouldn't be that much more expensive to build. Also it pretty much guarantees that we'll be purchasing some SSD media. Maybe
Red could figure out the sweet spot for the media sizes - i.e. which size gives them and us the most bang for the buck - and offer a combo upgrade price that includes some media and would make it a little more palatable to those that are on the fence, as far as staying with CF initially for cost reasons.

[Matt Uhry]

I agree - sounds like CF will not be very operationally useful on the Epic so why bother ? If the greater volume and simplified product line of SSD only saves Red a few ducats perhaps they could pass some of that savings on to us ? Win - Win.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Red hatever you do: Please please please don´t delay Epic to implement SSD drive, I´d rather get it 2 months earlier with the CF drive, and then change. We need to get Epic into the real world!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Red hatever you do: Please please please don´t delay Epic to implement SSD drive, I´d rather get it 2 months earlier with the CF drive, and then change. We need to get Epic into the real world!

No delays needed for SSD. That's what RED has been shooting on for the past couple months!

As I see it, the only reason to not buy the SSD option with Epic would be if your budget was too restricted to allow for it. Anyone buying Epic is going to want the ability to record on SSDs -- otherwise they can't really use the camera, IMO.

I believe it has already been said that the SSD side module can be purchased in place of the CF side module -- but it does seem it's more expensive.

There was a media module planned that would allow for connecting RED Drives or RED RAM units to the camera. However, I don't know how truly viable that module will be. I guess it remains to be seen what record modes and data rates the current Drives/RAMs can support on Epic.

[KETCH ROSSi]

I'm all up for this as well, BUT....

Don't think is going to happen..

You are requesting something that is an additional $2,500, or possibly $2,000 with out the CF Module included, this is way too much to ask of RED, and don't think Jim would consider a Change of Price, as this will be could be taken by many as an increase of price point for the System.

Secondly, I'm sure there will be plenty which still will choose to go the CF Route instead, for more then on reason.

Personally I wil be upgrading all my cameras, both Epic and any Red One I might keep, as it simply makes no sense to me to stay with CF cars, even so I have other Still Cameras that will continue to make use of them.

[Michael Hastings]

No delays needed for SSD.
I believe it has already been said that the SSD side module can be purchased in place of the CF side module -- but it does seem it's more expensive.


Feel like sticking your neck out and explaining why the SSD module would or would not be significantly more expensive than the same CF module (say $50 or $100 at manufacturing cost)? I don't know enough about the electronics to be certain, but it seems like you are pretty well up on that stuff.

I see esata external docks for $30 dollars - all inclusive. Also see CF to 1.8" SSD enclosure adapters for $40 or so, so having a hard time seeing where the big cost difference would be. And it seems like if this is the case the cost difference to go to SSD side module instead of CF module would be fairly small in the quantities it would be as the default and could easily be made up in the price of the proprietary media.

PS question to RED, would the CF to 1.8" adapters allow CF media to be used in the SSD module?

[tillHavis]

Here's why I think SSD should be the default option for Red - Please bear with me as it affects Epic as much as Scarlet buyers.

HDRx is out of the bag !!!
What was once only a concept is now a reality and I think Red are looking at it as a major selling point.
Which it is !
The problem is people have budgeted based on the prices given in November, especially the Scarlet market.
Adding an extra 1,000 to the price may be a bridge too far for many. Although Jim has said everything is open to change I think he's too decent to add 1,000 to the price of the Scarlet, especially when customers have waited patiently and have been loyal to the brand.

However not adding HDRx would mean cameras like the Panasonic AG-AF100 and others can claim a bigger market share when released, hitting them hard straight off would give Red the dominant share of the market.

Lets be honest apart from the 4/3 sensor, Scarlet (the fixed in particular) is a better spec camera and has more features including a huge resolution difference.

But HDRx really is the ace up Reds sleeve; it has so much potential in the area of FX, keying and especially the Scarlet market where extra DR is always needed for Eng, Documentary and Low budget filmmaking.

So what has this got to do with making SSD the standard option ? EVERYTHING !

Not adding HDRx would be a missed opportunity, and a chance to deal a killer blow to their competitors - So how does this affect Epic ?

Scarlet will need a new designed board - this should not be an issue as most of the work has been done on Epic. Problem is HDRx™™ will prob need a SSD to function to its full potential.
This means either adding HDRx light to the Scarlet and using CF cards ( I think this would be a missed opportunity) or else offering full HDRx with an SSD option.

The problem is this will cost ?

My solution would be to make SSD the default option, offer a SSDrive plus Module and a 1.8" Reader for a great price and have the same standard for Epic and Scarlet.

Make the CF reader the second choice option, and do away with it on the fixed so you can pass on the savings.

As HDRx looks like it will need a SSD to work to it full potential maybe Red should bite the bullet and go for it. This scenario depends on Red not having committed heavily on CF Card technology and buying SSD's in large enough quantities to offer them at an attractive price.

Either way SSD's are the way of the future, getting on board now may mean taking a hit, but the reward could be huge down the line. Prices of SSD's are set to drop before the end of the year and manufacturers will step up to the mark.
Being the first company to offer them as standard on all their cameras would put Red in a pretty dominant position

This is just my take on things; please feel free to disagree.

[Hrvoje Simic]

With HDRx option in mind, it would be a good time to mention storage requirements:

5:1 or 10:1 HDRx = roughly 100MB/s
= 6 GB per minute = 360GB per hour

2.5:1 or 5:1 HDRx = roughly 200MB/s = 1GB for each five seconds
= 12 GB per minute = 720GB per hour

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Feel like sticking your neck out and explaining why the SSD module would or would not be significantly more expensive than the same CF module (say $50 or $100 at manufacturing cost)? I don't know enough about the electronics to be certain, but it seems like you are pretty well up on that stuff.

If we're talking about the little bits and pieces to actually assemble the module, I can't imagine manufacturing costs would be much, if any, more. But we don't' know what all goes into the different modules.

On the RED One, the side CF module attached to an internal SATA cable. On the Epic / Scarlet we may have something different. What if it's a high-speed bus connection similar to PCIe and then the host controller is incorporated into the module? That could change the dynamics significantly.

That said, I don't think the real cost is in the board or components to support the SSD itself. For example, I think the 1.8" unit for the RED Station is still $250 -- the same as the CF and power units and most of that cost is from the milled aluminum housing.

On the cameras, there seems to be more -- the Epic module has additional boards in it to support interface buttons, two user programmable, and a monitor board. As I understand how monitor output on Epic works, each module processes the signal from the brain, so a monitor module or monitor port on the side media module or rear module, can have it's own output resolution, look/LUT, etc..

Until we all start getting our hands on the final product it's hard to say just what goes into what. And there's also associated manufacturing and quality control costs, R&D expenses to cover...

[Andrew Walker]

Shawn's idea is the only thing that makes sense with CF cards not being upgraded anymore. I would like to shoot on SSD. I also think it would be rather weird for RED to have a CF card interface on Epic when they aren't going to really support that format anymore. Plus it seems like Epic is designed for SSD. Guess we'll just have to see if RED does the right thing.

[Eren Ozkural]

Even with 64GB CF, it is questionable whether they could support even 5:1.

I was planning on getting 4 alongside the Scarlet 2/3". That would of been a powerful way of recording for long periods in remote locations with out carrying hand fulls of cards. Oh well. We should get a price reduction at some point.


...or a niftier hat ;)

[Deanan]

Shawn's idea is the only thing that makes sense with CF cards not being upgraded anymore. I would like to shoot on SSD. I also think it would be rather weird for RED to have a CF card interface on Epic when they aren't going to really support that format anymore. Plus it seems like Epic is designed for SSD. Guess we'll just have to see if RED does the right thing.

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

[Michael Hastings]

That said, I don't think the real cost is in the board or components to support the SSD itself. For example, I think the 1.8" unit for the RED Station is still $250 -- the same as the CF and power units and most of that cost is from the milled aluminum housing.

On the cameras, there seems to be more -- the Epic module has additional boards in it to support interface buttons, two user programmable, and a monitor board. As I understand how monitor output on Epic works, each module processes the signal from the brain, so a monitor module or monitor port on the side media module or rear module, can have it's own output resolution, look/LUT, etc..

Thanks, Jeff - your point about the red station module is well taken, and kind of what I was thinking. As far as the other stuff on the side module, certainly that is much more expensive but would be the same on either a CF or SSD so should be a wash.

Again, I'm not opposed to a small upcharge, and I think SSD is the only thing that makes sense now, but I think the increase should be small enough to allow it to be the default without freaking people out and it seems like $250 and $500 should be easily doable from both ends.

I think either it would cover the additional costs and/or payoff in increased SSD sales initially and be absorbed in the price of the media over time as well since RED basically will have a monopoly on the SSD modules. (and I'm not griping about that, it may have seemed like that when I used to talk about being frustrated at not even being allowed to test third party CF cards but that was less about price and more about the fact that 32 and larger sizes existed which some of us needed, and RED had no workable alternative. With the SSDs, RED already has the larger sizes covered.)



CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

But CF is kind of silly since they are small and essentially technically obsolete before Epic even ships - the year or more of delays with Epic basically means the time window where CF made sense has passed.

[Shawn Nelson]

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

Jarred posted that the 64gb cards should be forgotton. Are you saying that instead 64gb cards are proceeding as ever before?

Even if so, the post still stands and I hope the "default CF slot" gets scrapped asap. Unless you can also say the CF cards are going to be able to do all the data rates needed. Can you provide a compelling reason to stay with CF as the default option? From my perception, CF is NOT the way forward on Epic. Though I posted this thread to have my perception changed if need be.

[tillHavis]

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

I dont think CF cards are going anywhere soon, they are a great tool, but capacity and transfer wise they are more limited than SSD,
and the 64gb CF card which is sure to be necessary for HDRx has been a long time coming,

Panasonic faced the same problem with their P2 cards when they failed to get them to the marketplace fast.
Despite what Panasonic say their sales were affected by the high price point. Even their core market Broadcast, was reluctant to fork out.
Now we can see their cards are limiting them to certain transfer rates and resolutions as they have invested heavily in the format

I'm sure the CF card will have a place in Red's future but the question for me is; whether it is better to go with a format (SSD)
(before any new cameras are released) that is sure to have the capacities and transfer rates to sustain development into the future.


I really hope Red opts for the SSD route, it would avoid certain headaches down the line. Now is the time to get it right and insure that future developments are, in most regards covered.
The last thing I'm sure Jim or the Red team want to hear is I wish we had included full HDRx in the Scarlet and gone for SSD's

My 2 Cents

[David Battistella]

I have not been on here for a while.

RECAP:

SSD MODULE IS between 2-2.5K?
CF Module ships with EPIC?

Shawn is asking RED to make the default module the SSD Module and forget about CF?


Why not just ship the EPIC with CF, which we can still use and just ask people to buy and install the SSD module at the time of purchase or make it swappable?

David

[Vinit Borrison]

not to mention the "known" problem with the FW ports on the red drives which has cost us thousands of dollars in repairs.... really wish this was rectified, but it seems the same FW board was put back in all the drives.... should have some kind of grace on these ssd modules....

[Andrew M.]

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

Deanan, unless there will be a revolution in the CF cards speed it will not take HDRx stream speed, will it?

[PatrickW]

CF cards have NOT been killed. We're still moving forward the same as before with CF cards.

Will there be a dual CF card module that can record to 2 CF cards in a Raid 0 setup to increase recording performance?

[Ryan E. Walters]

CF Cards may not have been killed, but only having a 16GB CF card, not making higher capacities, and the CF cards not being fast enough to really support recording on the Epic is not really an "option" IMO. It is a bit like selling a hybrid car without the electric engine and advertising that it can get 100 MPG. The car is drivable as a gas only, but to do what it is advertised as doing, and really what it was meant to do, the buyer has to pay extra to get the electric engine ...

I get that the team at Red has figured out that CF cards are not really a viable option for EPIC. (Amount and rate of the data being too high.) And I applaud them for moving to SSD's. I think that is a great move as it allows for a better road map going forward. However, back in May when I put down my $5,000 towards Stage 2, CF cards, the current Red Ram, and the Red Drive were all viable options, and 64GB CF cards were coming down the pike (or so I thought). It is now just about October, the camera is still not released (with no release dates in sight), and we are essentially being told that the only real recording "option" is to spend an extra $2,500 on an SSD module? I think that those of us who have put down our money early should get something out of the deal ...

Just my $0.02 anyway. I know Red will do the right thing as they have shown time and time again that "they are customers too". I just hope that it is not a bate and switch thing for those of us who have already put down money.

[Steve Wake]

So if RED is moving forward with CF and 64 GB is out, does that mean they are skipping all the way up to 128GB CF? That would make me and I think a lot of future Scarlet 2/3 owners extremely happy.

[Albert C Martin]

So if RED is moving forward with CF and 64 GB is out, does that mean they are skipping all the way up to 128GB CF? That would make me and I think a lot of future Scarlet 2/3 owners extremely happy.

If by 128GB CF you mean SSD, then yes.

[Steve Wake]

CF means CF. For me, that means no extra investment in SSD module (at least not for awhile), record time of over 1 hour (non-HDR) and hopefully, enough speed to record 2/3 HDR files. Even 100GB rating with the other 28GB used for proprietary firmware and over-provisioning would work for me. I'm thinking of Scarlet 2/3 here, not Epic.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks, Jeff - your point about the red station module is well taken, and kind of what I was thinking. As far as the other stuff on the side module, certainly that is much more expensive but would be the same on either a CF or SSD so should be a wash.

That seems to make sense... But what if RED is attempting to recover their R&D costs via the modules, therefore a larger premium, and they do this so they can keep the media itself as cheap as possible? I know there's a lot of whining over the SSD costs and comparisons to off-the-shelf SSD prices. But the reality is that if the new RED SSDs can deliver the required performance in an SLC package that works under all conditions and doesn't degrade over time, then they're worth every penny. Not to mention that the RED SSDs are 1.8" and most mainstream SSDs are 2.5", so the off the shelf models are not cramming as much into the same amount of space.

[Michael Hastings]

That seems to make sense... But what if RED is attempting to recover their R&D costs via the modules, therefore a larger premium, and they do this so they can keep the media itself as cheap as possible? I know there's a lot of whining over the SSD costs and comparisons to off-the-shelf SSD prices. But the reality is that if the new RED SSDs can deliver the required performance in an SLC package that works under all conditions and doesn't degrade over time, then they're worth every penny. Not to mention that the RED SSDs are 1.8" and most mainstream SSDs are 2.5", so the off the shelf models are not cramming as much into the same amount of space.

I can see the logic there, but I'm promoting the idea that if they do that they are likely to be tempted to just continue with the side CF production - which I think for the most part is a mistake - it's time has past. I understand your point about the side module having other circuitry, but I would hate to think that we will be stuck with what amounts to a $3000 side CF module (just a guess allocation of the portion of the epic price tied up in the side media module) because RED wants to sell the few hundred they already have made when we could have a $3500 side SSD module. Defaulting to the SSD side module will mean the lowest possible cost and solidify the media that makes the most sense for the data rates this camera will be using in its most common modes. Whatever that CF module is worth, it will be immediately a throwaway/complete waste for most of us.

(I'm sure the side CF is already worked out by now - so pretty much no cost to offer it as an option - some of the stills oriented crowd may want it so they can probably eventually sell whatever might be in inventory, but most of those are going to be at least several thousand cameras down the line, or new buyers that are even farther.)

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

CF Cards may not have been killed, but only having a 16GB CF card, not making higher capacities, and the CF cards not being fast enough to really support recording on the Epic is not really an "option" IMO. It is a bit like selling a hybrid car without the electric engine and advertising that it can get 100 MPG. The car is drivable as a gas only, but to do what it is advertised as doing, and really what it was meant to do, the buyer has to pay extra to get the electric engine ...

I get that the team at Red has figured out that CF cards are not really a viable option for EPIC. (Amount and rate of the data being too high.) And I applaud them for moving to SSD's. I think that is a great move as it allows for a better road map going forward. However, back in May when I put down my $5,000 towards Stage 2, CF cards, the current Red Ram, and the Red Drive were all viable options, and 64GB CF cards were coming down the pike (or so I thought). It is now just about October, the camera is still not released (with no release dates in sight), and we are essentially being told that the only real recording "option" is to spend an extra $2,500 on an SSD module? I think that those of us who have put down our money early should get something out of the deal ...

Just my $0.02 anyway. I know Red will do the right thing as they have shown time and time again that "they are customers too". I just hope that it is not a bate and switch thing for those of us who have already put down money.

They've already given you an incredible deal with the upgrade program and somehow they're screwing you by giving you what they promised which was a CF module. I don't have an early camera do the upgrade and I'd happily take the generous upgrade with the CF because I can use all the CF cards I already own.

In fact I think Red should take away your upgrades for bitching about the free stuff they're giving you. Starting with Shawn :)

[Mike Gross]

Yeah, it is like saying you upgraded from the chevette to the corvette for $10k and you're pissed that the racing brakes and tires didn't come stock with the car.

[Shawn Nelson]

They've already given you an incredible deal with the upgrade program and somehow they're screwing you by giving you what they promised which was a CF module. I don't have an early camera do the upgrade and I'd happily take the generous upgrade with the CF because I can use all the CF cards I already own.

In fact I think Red should take away your upgrades for bitching about the free stuff they're giving you. Starting with Shawn :)

Your last smily face makes it hard to know whether you are serious at all. First, no one is bitching. This is called positive customer feedback (nearly everyone on this thread is derided as "kool aid drinking fan boys" elsewhere, so if I get that other places then get called "bitching" over here, then I'm going to start flaming.

It seems like you just decided to shit on this thread without reading the full context. Back when Red announced Epic (like 2+ years ago) CF made sense. On the last big announcement of Epic (almost a full year ago) CF was still viable. Now that Red has changed course, I'm merely letting them know that as a paying customer (news alert, Im not getting a free Epic), that I would LIKE Epic's default config to reflect the company's new direction with media (since they EOL'd several things, see the opening post). Judging by almost everyone's post, a lot of people strongly agree with me. Who knows, maybe Red already did what we've asked (it'd make sense, it's the most obvious thing to do) and this entire thread is irrelevant. Notice there's been no reply from Red other than a short and hard-to-decipher one-liner from Deanan.

Now I did post and continue to post in a humble and open spirit, so if my questions are incorrectly based, then I welcome an official response to set the record straight. If 64gb Red cards are still coming, and can do HDRx™ and 5k 120fps, then maybe a default SSD isnt needed at all.

[Shawn Nelson]

Yeah, it is like saying you upgraded from the chevette to the corvette for $10k and you're pissed that the racing brakes and tires didn't come stock with the car.

Not you too Mike, you're a cool dude, and that's a horribly mocking analogy that fails on every.last.point. and does nothing to elevate the conversation to useful commentary.

[Shawn Nelson]

alright, whatever. I'm just politely creating commentary, summarizing what i've heard, engaging in something besides useless speculation. Red knows I'm not "bitching" and that I'm about as pro-Red as it gets (and I actually own a Red and have given Red an obscene amount of money, I own almost everything Red has ever made). So I welcome more people to chime in on a technical level why they agree with my OP or why they disagree. I also hope Red will announce why these comments are good, unfounded or not feasible or whatever. Lastly, I hope Red isn't upset by this thread and appreciates customers politely engaging them on these boards, as has been the tradition for years now. Cheers.

[Mike Gross]

Just sayin... The tone of the thread does sound like previous threads which are all gimme gimme gimme. Of course I'd love the SSD for free but I'm not expecting it. I'd like a Pro I/O module as default also and the shoulder mount too and batteries and a rocket and a mac pro. Hell, gimme a 2nd AC too because the RPPs don't come with autofocus :)

[Shawn Nelson]

Mike, cost (or lack thereof) was never brought up by me. That'd be up to Red, I made a technical request.

Twitter to the rescue!! Michael Schmidt on Twitter posted this recent video of Ted seeming to say Red is going to do what this thread requests!!!
http://www.vimeo.com/15112636 go to the 00:43 to hear

[Kevin Wild]

I'm with you, Shawn. I hope RED does re-look at some of these deals. I don't get the negative responses at all. With RED always changing everything, these pricing packages and the packages themselves have to stay fairly liquid, too...especially with all that happens between the announcement and delivery.

So, I'm all for an Epic that doesn't have things that I'll immediately take off and put on a shelf to collect dust the very day I buy it. If you're delivering "latest & greatest" technology, than let it be that. SSD module makes much more sense to bundle. Even if it's a little more, that's fine. I just don't want to be shipped something that I don't even need.

Which brings up another old point about the non-Pro audio module. I believe that was the same deal and I'm not sure it was totally resolved. If everyone is ordering the Pro Audio module, let's not waste the materials, cost, shipping, etc. if 99% of the buyers get the higher end one.

I think RED usually does things VERY intelligently and does listen, so I think feedback like this is useful to them. Hopefully they listen...I don't want CF nor do I want the non-pro audio module!

[Shawn Nelson]

I'm with you, Shawn. I hope RED does re-look at some of these deals. I don't get the negative responses at all. With RED always changing everything, these pricing packages and the packages themselves have to stay fairly liquid, too...especially with all that happens between the announcement and delivery.

So, I'm all for an Epic that doesn't have things that I'll immediately take off and put on a shelf to collect dust the very day I buy it. If you're delivering "latest & greatest" technology, than let it be that. SSD module makes much more sense to bundle. Even if it's a little more, that's fine. I just don't want to be shipped something that I don't even need.

Which brings up another old point about the non-Pro audio module. I believe that was the same deal and I'm not sure it was totally resolved. If everyone is ordering the Pro Audio module, let's not waste the materials, cost, shipping, etc. if 99% of the buyers get the higher end one.

I think RED usually does things VERY intelligently and does listen, so I think feedback like this is useful to them. Hopefully they listen...I don't want CF nor do I want the non-pro audio module!

Thanks Kevin! Glad to see a post that doesnt involve a few barbs :-)

Good point on the non-pro audio module. Epic, by design, is a pro camera. So why are there ANY non-pro modules? How useful would they be? Maybe I'm missing something. Jim did say that we can just pay some unknown 'upgrade' fee to get the pro module, thats what I intend to do.

As for pricing, I'd like to point out that Red hasn't announced any pricing since Nov 2009, so I fully expect a final shakeup prior to shipping (remember, Jim said to expect changes), the world has changed. Maybe certain things went up, maybe some things are cheaper, maybe everything is cheaper, hard to say. We'll see.

[Michael Hastings]

Just sayin... The tone of the thread does sound like previous threads which are all gimme gimme gimme. Of course I'd love the SSD for free but I'm not expecting it. I'd like a Pro I/O module as default also and the shoulder mount too and batteries and a rocket and a mac pro. Hell, gimme a 2nd AC too because the RPPs don't come with autofocus :)

To be clear, I'm not asking for it for free, I'm with shawn (Edit: and Kevin) and asking that they make it the default so it could be like say $300-500 more - doesn't need to be $2500 or whatever - since it will be probably very little hard cost over the CF version and they can amortize whatever R&D over ALL of the Epics and not have us spend ANOTHER $2500 or more and have a useless side CF module.

And further, I really want it to be a replacement for the side CF, with the viewfinder and start buttons, etc. - so we can keep it as small as possible rather than having to stack another module on and keep the original side CF.

I don't think I've ever done an all caps before, but I think this is extremely important so let me restate:

I'M NOT ASKING FOR FREE, I'M ASKING FOR THEM TO DO THE SENSIBLE THING GIVEN THAT IT WILL BE A YEAR OR MORE PAST INITIAL TIMING AND THE CURRENT STATE OF TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY AND THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE METHOD AS WELL AS BEST TECHNOLOGY IS TO MAKE SSD THE DEFAULT AND CHARGE AS LITTLE AS THEY THINK THEY CAN FOR THE UPGRADE TO APPEASE THOSE (NOT ME) THAT MIGHT FEEL THEY WERE BEING UPSOLD.

Edit: The only people that can really have a gripe are those that did stage2 so already gave a deposit (like me) and I don't think those are the type that are right on the edge of this financially, so won't mind some upcharge. Again, the upcharge I will mind is being stuck with an expensive (essentially obsolete) side CF and then having to buy the SSD module.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

To be clear, I'm not asking for it for free, I'm with shawn (Edit: and Kevin) and asking that they make it the default so it could be like say $300-500 more - doesn't need to be $2500 or whatever - since it will be probably very little hard cost over the CF version and they can amortize whatever R&D over ALL of the Epics and not have us spend ANOTHER $2500 and have a useless side CF module.

I'm with you too, Michael. I'm sure there will be a price premium, and I'm sure we haven't seen all the pricing details for Epic yet anyway. I want to believe that the majority of Stage-2 customers are going to want the side SSD module rather than the CF module and will also want the Pro I/O module rather than the basic one that is to be included in the kit.

It has been 11 months since the big Epic stages announcement and nearly 6 months since Stage-2 notifications went out and deposits were collected. I'm sure plenty has changed since then. Things we know that have changed since then, that will definitely impact Epic's production and pricing, have already come to light. Such as Epic being produced 100% here in the USA. Perhaps the pricing on the SSD module isn't that out of line and the $500 side CF module no longer applies, but yet is still going to offer it as part of the kits because that's what they originally quoted... Anyway, that all falls into the realm of wild speculation. But something tells me that no matter how all the pricing details work out, Stage-2 and Stage-3 customers are going to get the deal of a lifetime and I'm betting that Stage-4, open market, customers will not only be buying the Epic without the included modules, but could very well be paying a higher entry price too. Once again, all speculation...

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

I agree with mr Hastings. I am absolutely willing to pay extra for the SSD sidemodule, but
$2500 seems a bit high, unless we are paying the penalty of 2500 pieces of CF modules all ready produced?
Through my lens it is not very Jim Jannard-like to pass on these kind of R&D expenses to the costumers as we go?
To me Jim seems like a true american businessmann, but one with a an overwhelming passion for our craft and our machines.
This is obviously just pure guesswork from my side...Lets see what happens..

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The R&D was just speculative as it pertains to costs. Obviously there is R&D here and those costs have to be recovered somewhere. However, that is only one component to the overall pricing strategy. I guess that what I have been trying to say is I doubt the $2500 is price-gouging the customer or out of line in any way. I'm sure there is a logical reason for the price in contrast to the side CF module originally being quoted as $500.

Looking back on things, I can see a lot of possibilities here, but for now I'm done speculating. I'm going to wait and see how it all unfolds. RED has always treated their customers fairly and I don't see any reason for that to change with an SSD module.

As for SSD being a default option or a standard package option, I fully expect that to happen. After all, the RED team has been shooting with SSDs for a couple months now. It's the only way, at this time, to utilize Epic's full capabilities.

[Raphael Varandas]

100% agreed... with you guys.

[Kevin Wild]

I'm getting "greener" as I grow older and it pains me to think of the associated environmental waste that would result from sending out hundreds or thousands of hunks of metal that are just being set aside due to a dated "default package" deal. Hopefully that doesn't happen.

[David Battistella]

In Shawn's defense.

From what I have read here, Shawn is a very early adopter of the RED system. He is also not a rental house, a major corporation, or spending someone elses' money.

So if Shawn expresses a concern that could affect the bottom lines, he really is looking out for himself as a customer and there is nothing wrong with that.

Many want to jump to RED's defense or claim Shawn is whining. I don't think RED is exactly hurting as a company or getting ready to shut their doors. They have been fair, given away a lot of freebies, but where would they be without a loyal customer base.

RED's relationship with the customer is very much classic parent child. (RED being the parent). Many of these threads seem like this is like asking dad for the keys to the car on Friday night, and that is how things are, reduser is one of the best lines of communication to "dad".

So it really ain't Shawn being a fanboy.

David

[Ryan E. Walters]

Very interesting turn of directions, it seems it is a no win situation either -

1. You praise Red for all they do and bring up no counter points, and then get labeled a fanboy. (Which is not helpful, as even a company as great as Red is not perfect.)

or

2. You bring up a valid concern, comment, critique, and you get labeled as a whiner, complainer, etc. (Which is not helpful either ...)

Never did I say give me something for free- nor do I think that is what Shawn is saying. I'm fine with paying some kind of cost- however, an $2,500 added cost seems exorbitant to me ... any way, I agree with what Michael says here:


I'M NOT ASKING FOR FREE, I'M ASKING FOR THEM TO DO THE SENSIBLE THING GIVEN THAT IT WILL BE A YEAR OR MORE PAST INITIAL TIMING AND THE CURRENT STATE OF TECHNOLOGY HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY AND THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE METHOD AS WELL AS BEST TECHNOLOGY IS TO MAKE SSD THE DEFAULT AND CHARGE AS LITTLE AS THEY THINK THEY CAN FOR THE UPGRADE TO APPEASE THOSE (NOT ME) THAT MIGHT FEEL THEY WERE BEING UPSOLD.

Edit: The only people that can really have a gripe are those that did stage2 so already gave a deposit (like me) and I don't think those are the type that are right on the edge of this financially, so won't mind some upcharge. Again, the upcharge I will mind is being stuck with an expensive (essentially obsolete) side CF and then having to buy the SSD module.

[Antony M]

As I see it, the only reason to not buy the SSD option with Epic would be if your budget was too restricted to allow for it.


That is certainly one reason. And that is the camp I am in.


Anyone buying Epic is going to want the ability to record on SSDs -- otherwise they can't really use the camera, IMO.


Anyone? Please don't generalise. There is far too much of that on this forum already :-)

I am buying an Epic (paid deposit ages ago), but I will NOT be recording on SSDs. At least not for the immediate future.

[Elsie N]

@Antony

I don't think anyone is suggesting that shooting on CF is not an option... just that the SSD should be the default since most will be using it and CF will be the optional "default".

[IAN SUN]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to jump on Shawn, for making a most reasonable request.. He has put his money on RED and no doubt will continue to do as will I and others would like to invest our money as efficiently as possible.

Other than responding to obvious trolls, there is no need to get our baggies in a twist jumping to RED's defense. There is way too much pilling on happening here. It is does not help RED, it is counterproductive.

As heavily invested as we are in RED gear, and the legacy that comes with that, those of us who have plunked down our money have a direct financial interest in RED's ongoing viability. That means making a profit on gear it sells. No one who has demonstrated their seriousness by dopositing substantial amounts of money is asking for free stuff.

[Shawn Nelson]

Antony and Elsie,
I believe the 16gb cards are of insufficient speed to take advantage of many of Epic's higher bit rates. So using CF would be to seriously throttle your Epic.

[Ryan E. Walters]

Antony and Elsie,
I believe the 16gb cards are of insufficient speed to take advantage of many of Epic's higher bit rates. So using CF would be to seriously throttle your Epic.

From what I understand, that is the case- the 16GB CF cards are limited to the current red code rates (28 & 36, with some 42 use). And at these rates, it would be better suited for use with the Red One or the forth coming Scarlet. It doesn't make any sense to me to be included with the Epic. Can you drive in 1st gear? Sure, but that is not how it was meant to be driven ...

[Elsie N]

Antony and Elsie,
I believe the 16gb cards are of insufficient speed to take advantage of many of Epic's higher bit rates. So using CF would be to seriously throttle your Epic.
I agree Shawn, but I also understand Antony's need to shoot CF initially before moving up to the SSDs.

personally, I'm in your corner wanting the SSD module to be the default... while hoping for a little discount love from RED for not getting the CF module.