raid vs flash

[Christian Edwards]

What are the pros and cons of both drives?

[Häakon]

The advantage to the RED-DRIVE (raid) is that it's huge - 320GB - which means long recording times (2 hours+ in 4K), and relatively cheap per GB.

The main advantage to shooting to the compact flash cards is that they're solid state so they have no moving parts. This means they aren't prone to losing footage due to vibration, shock, or extreme temperatures like a hard drive might. The cards are also much smaller, which means a lighter setup and reduced footprint. The downside is a significantly reduced recording time (about 4 minutes per 8GB card), and a higher price per GB.

[Christian Edwards]

do the drives read and write at the same speeds ie:would it be quicker to dump from one as opposed to another? What memory size is the red flash drive ?
ps. cards are cool ....better than filmstrips

[PaulClements]

do the drives read and write at the same speeds ie:would it be quicker to dump from one as opposed to another? What memory size is the red flash drive ?
ps. cards are cool ....better than filmstrips

The RedDrives use Firewire800 and USB2, likelyhood is if you are backing up from compact flash using a laptop or even to a desktop or raid system you will be using Firewire800 or USB2 anyway. So there is very little difference other than the amount of data you will be backing up from either.

Paul

[Christian Edwards]

The RedDrives use Firewire800 and USB2, likelyhood is if you are backing up from compact flash using a laptop or even to a desktop or raid system you will be using Firewire800 or USB2 anyway. So there is very little difference other than the amount of data you will be backing up from either.

Paul
thanks paul i was thinking it would be determined on the capture method just wasn't quite sure as to the effectiveness as compared to each other as a physical drive system when reversing the data flow. seems kinda stupid now i think about it

[Chris Kenny]

The RedDrives use Firewire800 and USB2, likelyhood is if you are backing up from compact flash using a laptop or even to a desktop or raid system you will be using Firewire800 or USB2 anyway. So there is very little difference other than the amount of data you will be backing up from either.


Well... a couple of laptop drives in a RAID 0 configuration should be able to sustain higher throughput than a CF card.

[Christian Edwards]

The advantage to the RED-DRIVE (raid) is that it's huge - 320GB - which means long recording times (2 hours+ in 4K), and relatively cheap per GB.

The main advantage to shooting to the compact flash cards is that they're solid state so they have no moving parts. This means they aren't prone to losing footage due to vibration, shock, or extreme temperatures like a hard drive might. The cards are also much smaller, which means a lighter setup and reduced footprint. The downside is a significantly reduced recording time (about 4 minutes per 8GB card), and a higher price per GB.
is the drive raided 0+1 ?

[Chris Kenny]

is the drive raided 0+1 ?

It's just a two-drive RAID 0. (Can't be 0+1 without at least four drives.)

[Curran Giddens]

Compact Flash Pro's
cheaper
onboard
lightweight
available now

Compact Flash Con's
less capacity
removes RAW port option
less throughput

Flash Drive Pro's
higher capacity (96GB)
retains RAW port option
higher throughput

Flash Drive Con's
expensive
heavier
not yet available

[Manuel Wenger]

For downloading files from CF Card to your Macbook, take a look at this

http://www.delkin.com/products/adapters/expresscard34/

I got it a week ago, and use it now for my digital camera, the speed is amazing, and the good thing is, o don´t block my firewire or USB connection.
I hope it can also read RED formated CF Cards.

Manuel

[Curran Giddens]

As long as both the RED Flash Drive and the RED Drive are shipping by the first week in December, I'm going to skip the Compact Flash card option. This will keep the RAW port option available for when the RED RAID is shipping. It may be a hassle in certain situations to use the RED Drive while the Flash Drive is offloading. Anyone else not getting the CF card module?

[HD Hildebrand]

Also, battery consuption of Red Drive should be a consideration.

The thing about Red Drive and CF combo is you can keep shooting with CF if the drive is still offloading.

[PaulClements]

As long as both the RED Flash Drive and the RED Drive are shipping by the first week in December, I'm going to skip the Compact Flash card option. This will keep the RAW port option available for when the RED RAID is shipping. It may be a hassle in certain situations to use the RED Drive while the Flash Drive is offloading. Anyone else not getting the CF card module?

Everything I've been hearing is that producers and insurers aren't keen on harddrive based solutions. By comparison solid state media is being widely accepted as a safe storage device. Panavisions solid state unit for the Genesis was produced especially for this purpose. This is my main reason for going the CF route.

Paul

[Zack Birlew]

I'm hoping the RED Flash Drive is available by the time I get my RED. I know Jim has said how unpopular the RAW port option has been but I'm also among the few that absolutely needs the RAW Port instead of the other flash options. Seeing as how mine's been delayed until December 30th now, I'm hoping some more stuff pops up by then! :tongue:

[Curran Giddens]

Everything I've been hearing is that producers and insurers aren't keen on harddrive based solutions. By comparison solid state media is being widely accepted as a safe storage device. Panavisions solid state unit for the Genesis was produced especially for this purpose. This is my main reason for going the CF route.

Paul

I know the solid state media has greater acceptance, but I can't afford to buy TWO Flash Drives at $4,500 each at the moment. I also want to get a RED Drive to record two hours of non-stop 4k live concerts.

For my own use I will just try to make sure the Flash Drive is not in the process of offloading when it is needed for a critical shot. If it isn't a critical shot and the Flash Drive isn't available, I will just use the RED Drive.

[donatello b]

if we are mentioning media that isn't currently available ( red raid , red drive)
lets throw in the Red 1.8 SATA flash 32gigs at $600 ... 4 4gig CF would be $800 ..

http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/85

[Larry McKee]

if we are mentioning media that isn't currently available ( red raid , red drive)
lets throw in the Red 1.8 SATA flash 32gigs at $600 ... 4 4gig CF would be $800 ..

http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/85

Yeah, I've been thinking about replacing the RED Drive with that for documentary work. If my math is right, the 32GB unit would hold about 80 min. at 2K. Should be plenty for just about any interview.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

For downloading files from CF Card to your Macbook, take a look at this

http://www.delkin.com/products/adapters/expresscard34/

I got it a week ago, and use it now for my digital camera, the speed is amazing, and the good thing is, o don´t block my firewire or USB connection.
I hope it can also read RED formated CF Cards.

Manuel

It will read them - shouldn't be a problem.. It's not very fast according to their product page though. Only 20MB/s. That's not even fast enough to download your footage off the card in real-time.

[Christian Edwards]

I'm supposing people need to figure out what media storage devices best suits them, their field and their budget. It's a hard call without a fully functional camera yet to gamble on which device option will best suit....I'm hoping by the time my camera has been released all storage options and acquisition formats have been as well. I'd rather not be a Ginnie pig.Id love to be able to buy all options and cover all my bases but i guess at the moment its a little from column A. and a little from column B. and try not to hold off to long in the mean time.It would be interesting to hear other peoples Red setup options any why they chose it.
decisions decisions decisions

[Damien Molineaux]

if we are mentioning media that isn't currently available ( red raid , red drive)
lets throw in the Red 1.8 SATA flash 32gigs at $600 ... 4 4gig CF would be $800 ..

http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/85

Actually 300x CF cards (like the Red ones) are at 8GB for $200, so that's 32GB for $800 vs the SATA flash at $600, yet the SATA flash isn't available yet and 300x 16GB CF cards may be out before they are. And, I would be surprised if they cost more than $300, which would put them on par with the virtual SATA solution. Also, I know that if I run out of CF cards and don't want or can't erase the ones I have for some reason, there are a number of stores in town (here in Geneva) where I can purchase 300x CF cards, and that will be the case in any large enough city around the world. Not to forget 32GB 300x CF cards are expected early 2008. CF cards are a tried and proven technology, widely used and with a high demand. We are sure to see capacity continue to grow and prices continue to drop.

As to holding off for the Raw Port module, I wouldn't hold my breath. I'd say it's still some time away, so if you're ordering a camera and it isn't available yet, I would get the CF module in any case, it's just one more option. You'll have to send back your camera to Red to instal the Raw Port module in any case, so it's not like because you have the CF card module you won't be able to instal the Raw Port module later.

Cheers,
Damien

[Curran Giddens]

As to holding off for the Raw Port module, I wouldn't hold my breath. I'd say it's still some time away, so if you're ordering a camera and it isn't available yet, I would get the CF module in any case, it's just one more option. You'll have to send back your camera to Red to instal the Raw Port module in any case, so it's not like because you have the CF card module you won't be able to instal the Raw Port module later.

Cheers,
Damien

But what do you do with the CF card module once you get the RAW port module installed? I guess it's only $1,300 for the CF module and four 8 GB cards. I could probably even sell it to another camera owner who is just getting their camera built, and have RED install my CF module in the the buyer's camera instead of a new one.

[Dave Blackham]

What is the maximum frame ratte that each device can capture ie Red Drive Red Raid Red CF card ?

thanks,

Dave

[PaulClements]

What is the maximum frame ratte that each device can capture ie Red Drive Red Raid Red CF card ?

thanks,

Dave

4K @ 30fps and hopefully 2K @ 100fps for RedDrive, RedDriveFlash and Compact Flash.

For the RAW port and Raid it's 2540p/4K @ 60fps, 2K is an unknown theoretically 200fps or more, though I'm not sure if they intend to open up 2K via rawport.

Paul

[Curran Giddens]

I think 2k (windowed) @ 120fps is intended for the RAW port. 200 would be sweet!

[Brent J. Craig]

How do you think productions will feel about being able to shoot high speed, but at half the resolution, twice the effective focal length?

In 15 years of shooting commercials in 35mm, I have never done a shoot where we switched to 16mm to be able to achieve a higher frame rate. Will people buy it?

[David Mullen ASC]

Switching from 4K to 2K isn't really analogous to switching from 35mm to 16mm, which have different grain structures/sizes, not just different resolutions. For commercials airing in SD, even HD, I don't think you are going to see much of a hit in resolution going to 2K for slow-motion shots; afterall, 35mm theatrical features often have 2K visual efx shots cut into them. On the big screen, you can see the change in resolution but it's subtle.

I watched a reel of "Spider-Man 2" with Mike Most, which was a 4K D.I. with 2K visual efx, and what I noticed was not that the 2K efx shots looked softer, but that they were more visibly sharpened compared to the 4K non-efx live-action. But I was really looking at the frame to see the difference, and this was on the big screen of the Aero Theater.

[tj williams]

2K RGB right David?

[Kevin Lang]

For downloading files from CF Card to your Macbook, take a look at this

http://www.delkin.com/products/adapters/expresscard34/

I got it a week ago, and use it now for my digital camera, the speed is amazing, and the good thing is, o don´t block my firewire or USB connection.
I hope it can also read RED formated CF Cards.

Manuel

Wow that is sweet! Do you know if they have made anything for the P2 Cards yet?

[Paul Leeming]

The ExpressCard adaptor is listed as having a maximum speed of 20MB/s so USB2.0 or FW400/800 will actually be faster. But it's still a good solution for freeing up slots on a laptop.

Paul

[Dave Blackham]

Wow that is sweet! Do you know if they have made anything for the P2 Cards yet?

Only the Duel Adaptor, it works fine. Could be faster but quite usable. The big issue with the PCMCIA P2 stuff is it has to go in to a PCI bus unless your using the overpriced P2 card products.

Some of the new CF stuff is very fast so hopfully we will see a more open standard to storage devices in future, RED seem to be going that way which is good news.