Reopen stage 2 due to delays

[Ivan G]

I really would like to upgrade to the MX now that Epic is pushed back once again. Is anyone else that currently owns the M sensor feel the same?

[Scott Miller]

Sorry, nope:)

[Elsie N]

I really would like to upgrade to the MX now that Epic is pushed back once again. Is anyone else that currently owns the M sensor feel the same?
Or maybe allow someone with an un-executed R-1 M purchase a new R-1 with MX sensor for the price of the original R-1 with old MX upgrade price. Then, when Stage 3 rolls around the customer could trade in their old R-1 with M sensor for a Stage 3 Epic X. That way, no Epic X customers' delivery schedules are interrupted and RED continues to send new R-1s out the door.

Just looking for a middle ground here.

[Antonio Forjaz]

only Jim can decide that....but, there was a time for decisions, and those that made the decision to put down the USD 5K months ago (like me) should not be harmed because some did not make the correct decision when they had the same opportunity as us.

[Stephen Lovett]

I agree Antonio,

There was no more certainty about release dates back when the original deadline was reached. And we've all had 5k on account at RED securing that decision.

Everybody had the same opportunity.

I'm sorry some are unhappy with their decision, but there is no reason to reopen this issue.

Particularly given that I'm unaware of any information that indicates that "Epic has been pushed back once again"

We've been given more upgrade options that have every been provided by any other camera company. We need to quit bugging RED to give us yet another better deal.

Just one mans opinion,

Steve

[Tim Whitcomb]

EPIC is going to be EPIC, I'd be kicking myself too if I had not thrown down $.
CAN NOT WAIT to have 5K @120FPS and 4K Full DEBAYER MASTER for our DI PIPELINE.

[John Marchant]

Not everyone is in the same boat - being stage 3.5 (by a matter of a few days), I still decided to suck it up and upgrade to MX. It is a shame that when EPIC arrives I'm not going to get anything extra back for the MX upgrade, but Jim makes the rules...

[Ivan G]

I agree Antonio,
Particularly given that I'm unaware of any information that indicates that "Epic has been pushed back once again"

Just one mans opinion,

Steve

If it wasn't pushed back I wouldn't have started this thread.

[Alexander Alexandrov]

"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." - Jim

[Antonio Forjaz]

"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." - Jim

one of the best quotes ever....and we all should know this one by heart

[Ivan G]

"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." - Jim

Exactly! So reopen stage 2

[Jim Retar]

I'm assuming Ivan (and others) would be happy to go to the end of the stage 2 queue, so what is the problem?

RED get another MX sale, they have another R1-MX in the field showcasing their tech and also don't have an R1-M on the way to be traded for stage 3.

I don't see a downside.

[Elsie N]

I'm assuming Ivan (and others) would be happy to go to the end of the stage 2 queue, so what is the problem?

RED get another MX sale, they have another R1-MX in the field showcasing their tech and also don't have an R1-M on the way to be traded for stage 3.

I don't see a downside.
The problem with that is that those with Stage 3 cameras (disclaimer: I'm both Stage 2 and Stage 3) would likely be pushed further back in the line for getting our Stage 3 camera.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have to agree with Elsie. The window for Stage-2 has passed. It was a short opt-in period to see who was both able and serious. To re-open the queue now would introduce new issues/concerns I think. Stage-2 was a litmus test of sorts to gauge initial production quantities, I'm sure. That's why anyone who ducks out of Stage-2 loses their upgrade option. They can have their money back, but their camera remains executed and they go to the back of the line, just as if they bought their RED One today. So mucking about with the existing Stage-2 group seems like a bad thing to do... IMO.

If RED does decide to re-open Stage-2, then I think they should make it more of a Stage-2.5 thing. After Stage-2 / before stage-3... Probably not quite as good a deal as Stage-2, but you still get to keep your RED, etc.. But there's still the concern for those who have decided on Stage-3. Who may view this as a chance for a bunch more people to jump the line ahead of them. As Elsie points out.

[Luis Ismael]

I will board on a stage 2.5 and keep my R1.
Come´on RED :)

[Matthew Rogers]

I don't think it's fair to those of us who plucked down $5,000 earlier this year to re-open stage 2. RED has always been about if you take a gamble, then it pays off. To re-open stage 2 says to those of us who put down money, that we could have waited to see how things play out. Now, if RED in stage three offered people to keep their cameras for so much $$$, then I'd be okay with that. But there shouldn't really be any line jumping in stage three if you want to keep your camera.

Matthew

[Tony Lorentzen]

Opening up Stage-2 wouldn't exactly be fair to those of us that fought to find the funds for the deposit in time before july 1st. The Stage 2.5 might be a good idea, though. Not too sure Stage-3'ers would think so tho ;-)

[Jim Retar]

What's all this "it is not fair on us" talk? .... surely if it was deemed good by RED, it is good for you?

To keep it very fair... Maybe those that opted in to a "stage 2.5" keep their serial # position as it would have been for stage 3. Basically, they are still stage 3 in terms of delivery... just get the stage 2 deal?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I kinda like Matthew's suggestion. When a customer's number comes up for Stage-3 delivery, which should be by serial number and original delivery date, then give them the option of trading in their RED or paying a bit more to keep it. I don't know if RED would go for it, but that seems fair to me.

Either way, Stage-2 was, is and still should be the best deal going and that's why it was a limited time offer.

[Elsie N]

What's all this "it is not fair on us" talk? .... surely if it was deemed good by RED, it is good for you?

To keep it very fair... Maybe those that opted in to a "stage 2.5" keep their serial # position as it would have been for stage 3. Basically, they are still stage 3 in terms of delivery... just get the stage 2 deal?
Or better yet (vis a vis what's in my best interest) move them to the back of the Stage 3 line. They get to upgrade to MX, they get to keep their MX R-1, but they wait a little longer for their Epic.

EDIT: That is actually NOT in my best interest because if I were to decide to MX my current M sensored Stage 3 R-1, it would be better if I kept my place in the Epic line. But I've already said what I think is fair so I won't go back on that.

[Maz Mawlawi]

only Jim can decide that....but, there was a time for decisions, and those that made the decision to put down the USD 5K months ago (like me) should not be harmed because some did not make the correct decision when they had the same opportunity as us.

I am not sure I understand how this would "harm you" if stage 2 was to be re-opened.... It's not like you're gonna lose this money or anything like that...

[Michael Hastings]

I kinda like Matthew's suggestion. When a customer's number comes up for Stage-3 delivery, which should be by serial number and original delivery date, then give them the option of trading in their RED or paying a bit more to keep it. I don't know if RED would go for it, but that seems fair to me.

Either way, Stage-2 was, is and still should be the best deal going and that's why it was a limited time offer.

Agreed with the only addition being that it would be nice if red would announce something like that now - I.e make it definite and how much - so that people could make an easier decision on whether or not to upgrade to mx.

Disclaimer: doesn't make any diff to me - I'm already stage 2

[Scott Miller]

Those of us who committed are in the first group to get our cameras. Although it is speculation, we will also have a narrow window of exclusivity for rentals and shooting projects before the market becomes "saturated" as the Red-M is now.

So, in short, we committed so we could earn money. If Jim opens it up, which is his right, we will possibly loose money.

Again, this is what some of us hope. AFAIK, I might be the only Epic i my city/market for rent. I may be worng, but I know that only a few opted in, and of those, most are not interested in renting out... I am.

[Matt Coats]

It's not like you're gonna lose this money or anything like that...

That is exactly what would happen. The initial financial investment means we are the first ones with the new camera. The new camera the general public will be freaking out about. And being the few people in the WORLD that have one, that lets us charge a premium for it. If everyone has one, that day rate is significantly cut... therefore delaying my plans of outfitting my stealth yacht with lasers.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Those of us who committed are in the first group to get our cameras. Although it is speculation, we will also have a narrow window of exclusivity for rentals and shooting projects before the market becomes "saturated" as the Red-M is now.

So, in short, we committed so we could earn money. If Jim opens it up, which is his right, we will possibly loose money.

Again, this is what some of us hope. AFAIK, I might be the only Epic i my city/market for rent. I may be worng, but I know that only a few opted in, and of those, most are not interested in renting out... I am.

lets say i have an epic now, it would never influence your market, because i am at the other side of the globe and would be busy doing stuff here.
no reason not to open stage 2 again inmho.
for Red it makes absolutly sense.
next year a lot of the stage 3 reds will be 3-4 years old, they wouldnt have to take them back.
additionaly they would sell a lot more mx sensors, plus they would get 10k more per customer.in total this would be 15k plus more money for Red comparing to their stage 3 customers.

[Jim Retar]

I see your point about rentals... but surely stage 3 will kick in, regardless? Thus, saturating the market at the same rate.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

+a lot would add a ssd module to their RED
+ the money that would come from the assecoires like
v-mount plates etc. ( things you replace once in a while because you mantain the cam)

still, i understand your POV

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I think it would be fair to give stage 3 people the option of keeping their R1s for a fair amount (that RED would decide - obviously), but reopening stage 2 would not be right.

[Scott Miller]

Cüneyt,

I might be on the other side of the planet, but what about the 2 or 3 people in Berlin that committed when it was offered, and now their market will get further diluted. You are probably not the only Red owner in your market.

Again, up to Jim & team, not us. We can offer suggestions and wants, they tell us what we can have:)

[Elsie N]

Wouldn't it be funny if the first Epics started shipping in a few days? :blink: :party:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Cüneyt,

I might be on the other side of the planet, but what about the 2 or 3 people in Berlin that committed when it was offered, and now their market will get further diluted. You are probably not the only Red owner in your market.

Again, up to Jim & team, not us. We can offer suggestions and wants, they tell us what we can have:)

we have around 40-50 reds in berlin...and still actually its not enough to satisfy the market :)

although i have my own red, on a average feature there are 3 reds needed.

[KETCH ROSSi]

Stage 2 is gone and done with, it should stay at that!

Stage 3 should IMO be given the opportunity to keep their R1, and just pay the 17.5k instead, plus the already agreed $10,500 balance, and this was already discussed and they told us, that when time comes it would be considered.

[Norbert Niederacher]

I really would like to upgrade to the MX now that Epic is pushed back once again. Is anyone else that currently owns the M sensor feel the same?

+1

Its up to Jim not us. We can offer suggestions, he tell us what we can have. But it would be a great solution.

[Elsie N]

... now that Epic is pushed back once again...
Ivan, I know the prevailing mood on REDuser is that the Epic has been pushed back, but I can't seem to find an announcement anywhere. Is this just your feeling or is there evidence?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Wouldn't it be funny if the first Epics started shipping in a few days?

Not funny, that would be AWESOME! Every day I hope that it will be the day.

[Elsie N]

Not funny, that would be AWESOME! Every day I hope that it will be the day.
Agreed Jeff. I was just thinking that Jim sounded like he was apologizing for past delays and not anything current. I think this might be what I would do if I was about to unleash the first lot of Epics. And since the HDRx™ appears to be a firmware item (they've been using it in some form so apparently there's no hardware glitches) they could release working Epics without it if the first firmware version is viable. This is just a hope (and a way of creating rumor buzz:Yawn:)

[Dominic Cochran]

It's funny how people who used to clamor for the total democratization of filmmaking suddenly want to create the same sort of exclusivity and protected market they formerly protested. #imstage2 #lovefilmANDred #animalfarm

[Tim Whitcomb]

Not funny, that would be AWESOME! Every day I hope that it will be the day.

I will be amazed if any (fully functioning) Stage 2 EPIC-X ship before NAB 2011 and Im in the first 100. This shit is a lot harder than they thought and they still have a ton of features to enable. I see TATTOO least another 3 to 6 months easy... especially when you add FCC delays, which are totally out of RED's control.

I mean did any of us think the RED CF Reader would be delayed this long?

April is only 150 days away... with millions of lines of code... do the math.

[Elsie N]

April is only 150 days away... with millions of lines of code... do the math.
But that implies they haven't written any code.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

April is only 150 days away... with millions of lines of code... do the math.

It's more like 177 days actually ;-)
(I did the math)

[Terry VerHaar]

...


April is only 150 days away... with millions of lines of code... do the math.

I have to admit, it amazes me the extrapolations that can be made from unrelated comments. Jim said there were 7 (I think, but it doesn't matter) million lines of code. So now we are to believe that they haven't written them or haven't debugged them or are going to start over or...huh?"

To avoid the re-igniting "the great Tattoo debate" I won't use the "T" word but remember, there are several working Epic prototypes out there shooting - with however many lines of codes that already work. There is no math; just guesses

[Ivan G]

Those of us who committed are in the first group to get our cameras. Although it is speculation, we will also have a narrow window of exclusivity for rentals and shooting projects before the market becomes "saturated" as the Red-M is now.

So, in short, we committed so we could earn money. If Jim opens it up, which is his right, we will possibly loose money.

Again, this is what some of us hope. AFAIK, I might be the only Epic i my city/market for rent. I may be worng, but I know that only a few opted in, and of those, most are not interested in renting out... I am.


Jim has mentioned before that Epics will ship in larger quantities then Red One cameras in the past. So for those that think they're going to make a fortune with Epics because they dropped a deposit early on you might be disappointed. I have a feeling it will go much faster. Jim continuously states that Red has been adapting to the game and beyond, so I think production is one as well. But then again who knows!

[Tim Whitcomb]

I have to admit, it amazes me the extrapolations that can be made from unrelated comments. Jim said there were 7 (I think, but it doesn't matter) million lines of code. So now we are to believe that they haven't written them or haven't debugged them or are going to start over or...huh?"

To avoid the re-igniting "the great Tattoo debate" I won't use the "T" word but remember, there are several working Epic prototypes out there shooting - with however many lines of codes that already work. There is no math; just guesses

Hi Terry, UNRELATED COMMENTS ? Millions of Lines of CODE and delays are not related? Are you serious? or kidding? (i notice you are sarcastic often)

Look, i want my EPIC's yesterday... but you arent reading BETWEEN THE LINES, This program is just a much bigger project than they thought and they still dont have FCC approval on a RED Station that shipped months ago. BOMB EVF is still trying to get caught up with back orders... and then you remember there are LOTS of factors outside of RED's control. Suppliers, FCC approvals, etc etc.

INTERNALLY> Lots of kinks to work out with the EPIC's in the wild... (still haven't released footage of 5K at 120 FPS) , SSD just added. mass production tooling changes take TIME, if they are still adding boards, then they haven't finished tooling. Not sure they can mass produce any of the modules until they LOCK the EPIC form factor (they added 1/2 inch or so) still tweaking HDRx and on and on.

Im talking about Stage 2 here... and I have ZERO inside information, but Im GUESSING... that the earliest we will see EPIC STAGE 2 will be NAB with Scarlet following in the Summer. One year from target.. (3 years to develop a camera is prettu standard, and this is an EXTRAORDINARY) camera.

This is where I ALONE am re-setting MY EXPECTATIONS. if its earlier than that, then GREAT.

Oh, and Mark P getting his EPIC does not count as shipping :001_tongue:

[Terry VerHaar]

@Tim -my only point is this: No one, not you, me, anyone, knows exactly where they are in the testing of Epic. So, to suggest that Jim's comment about how many lines of code are in Epic means that there will be a delay is the highest form of speculation.

You may be right. But just as easily, you may be wrong. The reason I care is that it seems like a whole lot of people on this forum like to pick up on the theme of "It will never ship." or "It'll be here at NAB 2012." and this is just plain FUD. It's from this type of speculation that you get the ridiculous EOSHD blog and all the blatant lies. I'd like to counteract that by pointing out where there are specific bits of real information, and where there are nothing more than interpretations.

[Tim Whitcomb]

@Tim -my only point is this: No one, not you, me, anyone, knows exactly where they are in the testing of Epic. So, to suggest that Jim's comment about how many lines of code are in Epic means that there will be a delay is the highest form of speculation.

You may be right. But just as easily, you may be wrong. The reason I care is that it seems like a whole lot of people on this forum like to pick up on the theme of "It will never ship." or "It'll be here at NAB 2012." and this is just plain FUD. It's from this type of speculation that you get the ridiculous EOSHD blog and all the blatant lies. I'd like to counteract that by pointing out where there are specific bits of real information, and where there are nothing more than interpretations.

Only speaking for my OWN expectations... and for the record. I HOPE TO HELL TO BE PROVEN WRONG... but I wont be disappointed if thats the new estimate. April seems optimistic, given how complicated this project is.

I dont post FUD Terry. Like other customers who are disappointed, I know JIM and JARRED want to ship more than all of us combined want to buy one...
and I just dont want that desire to ship influencing the schedule. THis is a MAJOR PURCHASE for a lot, if not ALL of us. I want it as CLOSE TO PERFECT as possible (like M-X is today) before I get my STAGE 2 email...

They don't have enough info today for a new ship estimate announcement. THAT AINT FUD. That's a FACT.

[Terry VerHaar]

...


GThey don't have enough info today for a new ship estimate announcement. THAT AINT FUD. That's a FACT.

Here we agree. But to suggest that there will be a lengthy delay, based on anything that has been said, is pure speculation.

[rod bradley]

I think the Red crew has enough to deal with without re-opening, changing around or having to deal with the complexities of dealing with a huge number of human beings with egos and differing expectations and situations. They set up a more than generous framework. You did it or you didn't buy in. The early faith gamblers get a fantastic deal and every one else gets a great deal. Just as in the beginning.

Sorry to say that sometimes reading these begs and pleas for more more and please adjust the whole framework to my personal situation reminds me of that no good deed goes un-rewarded.

Jim himself wants to see the first Epics start to go out this year. Everyone hopes they make it. And I suspect they will.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think the Red crew has enough to deal with without re-opening, changing around or having to deal with the complexities of dealing with a huge number of human beings with egos and differing expectations and situations. They set up a more than generous framework. You did it or you didn't buy in. The early faith gamblers get a fantastic deal and every one else gets a great deal. Just as in the beginning.

Sorry to say that sometimes reading these begs and pleas for more more and please adjust the whole framework to my personal situation reminds me of that no good deed goes un-rewarded.

Jim himself wants to see the first Epics start to go out this year. Everyone hopes they make it. And I suspect they will.

whats the beg?
please let me spend more money?
wish people had such begs for me :)