Delivery schedule, hand to mouth. [Archive]

Jannard

10-13-2007, 11:41 PM

Kevin Halverson

10-13-2007, 11:45 PM

While padding is certainly an easy way to beat the estimates, real and accurate information (even though it is subject to change) is by far better.

Daniel Reichenbach

10-13-2007, 11:50 PM

It's allways refreshing to read a JimQuote from time to time and to have a proof this way, that you are willing to do the best for your customers, so don't stop please.

explosive

10-13-2007, 11:53 PM

I guess the thing that has always nagged at my mind is that the delivery schedule is essentially the BEST CASE SCENARIO.

Which, lets face it, will never happen in reality in any business - we will always encounter challenges and delays along the way, especially when new at the game.

I do think the alternative you suggested would have worked if announced say 6 months ago... however we are far too deep in production to announce this kind of thing.

I think the only possible course of action is what you've been currently doing, keeping the best case scenario schedule, given the current info, and announce any further delays according to that.

Perhaps when releasing RED-MINI, and RED PROJECTOR, this new approach would work wonderfully, and may even afford you the opportunity to announce an EARLY RELEASE because of this buffer!

John Hunt

10-13-2007, 11:56 PM

I think Red's 'thinking out loud' approach is radically different, unique, maybe even a little eccentric in this industry.

Definitely refreshing, from my perspective.

But it requires customers to abandon the traditional consumer role to a certain extent and jump on board Red's crazy development train. I like that ride; even feel rather honored to be a part of it, but some won't get it and will bitch about it. But no matter how Red is run, someone will bitch about something. So please keep up the good work and continue to let us be a part of things as they happen - most of us get it, I think, and we appreciate the openness.

John Hunt

Corrado Silveri

10-13-2007, 11:58 PM

Go on Jim, please.
Truth is always the best thing to communicate, even if will appear uncomfortable.
Your efforts, your commitment, your willingness are great examples for all of us. (At least, for me...)
So, please, stay in touch.

Corrado.

IAN SUN

10-14-2007, 12:04 AM

I second explosive, we are too far gone down this road to turn back now. Announcing a three month push at this time (even if you beat it) would damage RED's credibility.
I would only do that if there is a preponderance of uncertainty related to suppliers, unresolved software issues or other things you cannot control.

WesG

10-14-2007, 12:04 AM

Much prefer your approach now Jim - it's honest.
Once you start padding the truth or not saying how it is, then we won't be able to fully trust anything you say.
Don't drop you open policy now, or we will all waste time second guessing what you really mean.

It's crazy for anyone to not have expected delays (at ever stage). Or set their expectation or book anything on the basis of a proposed schedule (particularily when it relates to new technology!!).

You've been up front and straight with us all the way, don't start manipulating you communications to pacify anyone - it will only cause you more grief in the long run.

Owen James

10-14-2007, 12:06 AM

Frustration with niggling posters is understandable... Allowing us to have a touch on the pulse of RED, is one of RED's greatest attributes. Jim, Your openness is a gift not an obligation... I hope posters will remember that.

JD Holloway

10-14-2007, 12:13 AM

I said once before,

Nobody remembers a late delivery.
Just a bad one.

Keep the communication flowing; keep us engaged.
99% of us will totally appreciate your challenges.
as for the other 1%...

sander kamp

10-14-2007, 12:56 AM

Looking back a three month safety period might have been good but by now we all have learned that things can go wrong and delays are to be expected. I agree with explosive that it could have been more clearly communicated that dates are a 'best case scenario' rather than 'subject to change'.

In general I would say: don't worry too much. There might be a few unhappy people with a loud voice but the majority of us is happy to witness up close the development of the camera, including all things that go wrong.

Jan Reiff

10-14-2007, 01:30 AM

jim,

you and your company should take the time they need to offer and ship the best camera possible. i prefer a shipping some weeks later to a shipping that has some trouble on board or is uncomplete because of timepressure.
i think the most of us think the same way.
the delivery shedule has not changed dramatically to the last ones, so i don´t understand why some people fall to panic attacks.

Darwin

10-14-2007, 01:31 AM

My camera will be ready when it's ready....As long as I have a couple weeks notices to put my funds together, I'm good! I would think most would like the up front and honest approach. Sometimes this board feels like some kind of bizarre game show.

Jan Reiff

10-14-2007, 01:43 AM

i have to add:

when i placed an order for the hvx200 (i was one of the first to that time), i waited 3-4 month more for it as it was announced. delivery was told for spring 2006 i think. i ordered 2005 in late summer. and there was no more information from panasonic. so i prefer the open philosophy of red actually more.

Peter McCully

10-14-2007, 01:45 AM

I'm happy to wait for when my camera is good and ready.

filip kovcin

10-14-2007, 01:56 AM

well, i think that everyone on this forum will be glad to receive the camera tomorrow.
but since red team is working hard to keep the schedule actual - i do not see the reason to change something...

but :)
if you want to be smarter then others :) - you can see that everything is already in the schedule. take a look: in delivery time there is word "begins". if you are lawyer (like in hollywood movies) - you may say to jim: cmon, jim - you just need to delivery ONE camera each month just to filfull the declaration, so you deliver JUST i.e. nr 101 (Serial numbers 101-200 Begins October 30th) just to start - and forget about the others. numbers from 102-200 may wait even two years... next month you deliver 201 etc. when you are finished with all cameras you will deliver them then. :)

please treat this just as a (bad probably) joke. but from the lawyer's point of you it looks to me that is everything is ok, since there is no word "ends" on certain camera number and certain date.

BUT - back to the main question - RED TEAM! just keep us informed. that's all what we need. we all love your approach, and i beleive, that - thanks to you - we are making HISTORY!

"That's one small RED for a man, one giant RED for mankind."

Sanjin Jukic

10-14-2007, 01:56 AM

If RED needs three months as a safety delay to fix "so many things that have gone wrong"
I would suggest to do "more conservative approach" and that means DELAY IT. This would
be good for the RED as a project and good for all of us as a future RED users. Also beyond that for our
customers and a movie audience in general. Let's make it the RED as better as possible and then
finally ship it.

Martin Jäger

10-14-2007, 02:04 AM

hej Jim,

please keep on informing like you did before!
to give people the feeling to be close to the process is much more
important then trying to make a few happy by not dissapointing them.
in the end the cam ships anyways when it ships - and not earlier.

Martin

LEON

10-14-2007, 02:04 AM

We have tried our best to keep everyone posted on an up-to-minute account of our delivery schedule.
We have been "talking out loud" in an effort to be as open as conceivably possible. Should we go back to a more conservative approach? I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.
Jim

I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A REGULAR, MAYBE WEEKLY, STATEMENT FROM YOU
EVERY MONDAY for instance to avoid the stress !
THANK YOU anyway for your extraordinary approach of relation to customers and moviemaking !

explosive

10-14-2007, 02:08 AM

I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A REGULAR, MAYBE WEEKLY, STATEMENT FROM YOU
EVERY MONDAY for instance to avoid the stress !
THANK YOU anyway for your extraordinary approach of relation to customers and moviemaking !

Would you also like a honey soy latte with that?

:)

Seung Han

10-14-2007, 02:14 AM

Thanks for listening to us about the time stamp issue. What more can we say? I guess this transparent process will get abused here and there and cause some stress on both sides. Still, what a great community Red has developed over a very short period of time. It speaks volumes about the company, the product, the business model, the leadership involved and the customers who appreciate it all.

I hope this type of innovation on all fronts creates a deep value which will outweigh any headaches.

Claus Mueller

10-14-2007, 02:39 AM

I like the conservative approach and can wait for my cameras when they are ready and well checked. Thanks for your open and honest discussion.

david farland

10-14-2007, 03:12 AM

Jim,
I think i'm speaking for everyone here when I emplore you to add 1 additional year to all outstanding delivery dates.....Please!!

umm,
Cheers,

Martin Drew

10-14-2007, 03:23 AM

I think openness is still the best policy, tell it how it is. Of course it can be a double edged sword and because of that I think sometimes there can be a temptation to present just the appearance of openness. If people see through that it can make them feel like they have been taken for suckers. Not good. Any delays honestly and openly presented seem to have been accepted very well here and I would think they would continue to be so.

M

Stacey Spears

10-14-2007, 03:37 AM

I appreciate the current approach and enjoy it when you post the schedule updates. I believe it will always be the ones next in line who are the most vocal. The closer one gets, the more anxious they become.

I also believe that getting those intial cameras out was an important step. No matter how much you test a product in house, and with a small group of beta testers, the first time an end user gets the product, they will run into something unexpected. Real scenarios are invaluable.

One approach is to start shipping in smaller groups, weekly. This way you can grow the shipping and support as the install base grows. 10 new customers in a week is a lot easy to manage than 50 or 100 new ones.

Frank Mirbach

10-14-2007, 03:41 AM

I think it´s best to keep your customers honstly informed as far as that is possible. It´s unique in the business and provides a certain "team" feeling with all of us. One kind of feels "belonging" to the process. Of course, people like us, who ordered already, would like to know more exactly when to expect their babys and a serial number for all ordered cameras would - strangely - make us all a bit proud, but I can fully understand that this is not possible at the given time. So keep up the good work and count on our patience.

Tai Wah Lim

10-14-2007, 04:01 AM

Jim, thanks for creating this camera and making even beta runs within such a short time.

As with all new product, let alone something that that was created from scratch, it is already a remarkable feat.

I will rather that we let the earlier batches go through a longer period of beta tests, get feedbacks, iron out supply chain shortfalls and come up with a "gold" release schedule for a full production unit. If it is another 3 months delay, than it is going to be a 3 months delay.

Red can deliver up to say the first 300 or 500 units for the beta testers and take a breather till a "gold" schedule can be released.

Lim

Andreas Fernbrant

10-14-2007, 04:35 AM

I'm with most of the people here.
If you need additional delay, go for it. It's better to deliver late then a unfinished product. Be open and honest about it like in the past.

There will always be people that voices a negative opinon to actions like that. But it seems like most of this community understands and needs your open and honest approach.

Keep it real;)

Gunleik Groven

10-14-2007, 05:00 AM

The deliveryschedules have always been somewhat vague, as I have read them, and are sort of the least important information to be able to discuss - as long as the cameras are actually delivered.

I have steated several times, that I'd rather be a betatester and get access to the images, than ending up in some sort of Kinetta situation.

What I think is god with the dialogue though, is the features discussion, as that is somewhat interesting as to which features are made accessible in whitch order.

I honestly believe that one year from now,, we will still see updates to the firmware enabling or refining features on the Red one, even announced features -;) But I don't mind. What keeps my peace of mind, though - is pretty much the dialogue.

The other thing I would love to see, is sample RAW footy for us to play and test workflow issues with.

That would make us much more prepared for what comes, than anything else.

Cheers!

Gunleik

Lauri Kettunen

10-14-2007, 05:00 AM

I hope this type of innovation on all fronts creates a deep value which will outweigh any headaches.

As always, Seung has a healthy attitude.

I wonder whether this forum appears as a whole bit like an infant in the eyes of the RED team. At least, I would not be surprised if Jim has at some point employed somewhat similar phrasing in persuading his kids to understand realities.

Taking into account that the single people in this forum are most likely professionals, one may ask, why this mismatch in communication; Given information, there's an immediate request for much more -some unintentionally with a bit biting tone.

In the end of the day I suspect the question is that this whole style of developing the camera is new, and as Seung implicitly says adopting the culture among the users is still in its infancies.

Perhaps the whole thing boils down to two things: Jim says, don't rely on building any business on RED until you have the camera and everything isready. On the other hand, we as the users can't resist of thinking of the competetive edge brought by the camera and the underlying workflow, and thus many rush straight adead in building their plans above the preliminary schedule.

Compare, when RED says there's a delay one may read it as a negative feedback. But, one may also read that it as a sign of devotion. When the schedule is changed, it simply means they have realized that they can't meet their own goals, and thus updated new information.

Wish Jim keeps informating us the same way as before, and the rest of us stay cool. Even it were June it's not that far ahead.

PaulClements

10-14-2007, 05:44 AM

Hi Jim,

One thing that has always struck me is the huge leap in productivity between camera 1-200 and then all of a sudden 400 in one month. I've always wondered how you'd be able to ramp up production without:

A) Bringing in a whole bunch more engineers that need training up

or

B) Sacrificing a part of the production line such as testing in order to get that many out

After all we'd be talking about 15 cameras being finished a day - that's a lot for a precision piece of equipment from a small team.

Personally I want the very best unit I can get and I don't want it to be flipped out of the factory. If that means making that run 5 cameras a day and having something that is tested to perfection I'd be more than happy to wait a few more months for it. No other professional will be interested in using a camera that comes with problems and I don't want to be trying to get them to use it.

Cheers

Paul

Brice Ansel

10-14-2007, 06:04 AM

100% agree with you Paul, and congrat for last night guys.
Brice

PaulClements

10-14-2007, 06:08 AM

Cheers Brice, and my commiserations for you mate... been there before and it isn't nice.

Paul

Christian Edwards

10-14-2007, 06:10 AM

Its not the destination but the journey
quality not quantity

tj williams

10-14-2007, 06:36 AM

Adrian T.

10-14-2007, 06:52 AM

Jim, please keep the current approach, we're used to it.

Jay A. Kelley

10-14-2007, 06:53 AM

Hi Jim!

I don't think the problem has been the openess. I think it's been the inconsistancy. Your communication on REDUser.net is sparatic and unpredictable, and this leads to an unknown that can cause stress.

The open policy is wonderful, but consistant updates (Even when you come online to say "Nothing has changed") would make all the difference.

My suggestion is this:

Make a list of all items RED is working on with release dates and text on any issues. Then have Jarred make is a sticky. Then pick a date and time and come online and update this list along with answering any concerns or issues at the same time or at least on the same day each week.

I believe this will allow the "open" policy to succeed better than it has.

I don't find the change in delivery dates to be the issue, I find the periods of silence to cause the most stress. People need some sort of predictability.

You can second guess your process with the three month pad, it's no better than what you are doing now. If you do, some things will be early, and some things will not, leading to the same situation we have now.

So we're looking for a "Presidential Forum Address" given once a week by the owner of RED. You'll update your delivery schedule, talk about any issues, and whatever else. I think this would change a lot of things for the better.

Of course I am NOT saying you should ONLY be on during that time, but it will be the one time that we can all depend on.

One more thing: Personally, if it were me, I would not do it on REDUser.net. I would have an update page on RED.com... Many are frustrated with going through the hundreds of pages on here.

Post your updates on RED.com and then we can argue about it on REDUser.net :)

Let me know what you think.

Jay

Mark Thorpe

10-14-2007, 07:05 AM

Don't listen to the hecklers mate, they're ten a penny. The real people here recognize and respect what it is you are trying to do and appreciate the fact that you are wiling to include them in that at such a personal level.

The positives here far outweigh the negatives.

Thanks for everything so far.
Cheers,
Mark.

PaulClements

10-14-2007, 07:14 AM

A. Live up here in HItec land.... Near Seattle.... maybe I know a few more engineering types.... are you hiring?

B. Jim's statement looks like the precurser of another push back, which is to be expected. With a delivery date of, Dec originally, I always hoped to have my camera in the Spring so I guess I pushed 3 months back on my own???

Sorry, I'm not trying to say that it's impossible or to heckle. I'm basically just advocating a push back in my mind. I'm all for a delay if it means that quality is going to be the most important aspect of Red's production is all.

Paul

David Cubbage

10-14-2007, 07:15 AM

You only have to look at all the fantastic footage the new camera owners, including yourself, have posted during the past few weeks to see that you have taken the right course.

David

combatentropy

10-14-2007, 07:40 AM

Jim,

You're not God, so you cannot predict the future. Anyone here who is disappointed when you don't is being unreasonable.

However, the normal human way of overcoming their inability to predict the future is to calculate how long it would take if everything goes okay. This is just math problem: rates, etc.

Then pad it by 25-100%, to account for the evil that is in the world. I guess that's what other companies do. Then you *probably* (again, you never know) will make the date. And if you finish ahead of schedule, hey, everyone says you finished early.

Of course, if you pad it too much, enthusiasm wanes. Like you could say 2010, but then not so many people would be talking about it already.

There's an online book about web development called Getting Rea (http://gettingreal.37signals.com/toc.php)l. It has some good yet radical advice, some of which could be translated to other industries. I have wondered if you have already read it, because you are following many of its principles.

Jon Schellenger

10-14-2007, 07:57 AM

Jim,

I know you guys are doing the best you can. You have made an amazing camera, and I love going back through the forum and watching the work people are posting. I have learned so much from everyone here!

My number is 1123 and I have already planned on it showing up sometime in the Spring (already padding everything by three months). I know you have said Dec / Jan, but I know how ramping up production can be. Honestly, I would really enjoy having a camera that has all bugs worked out. I agree with most people here who have posted: The camera will be ready when it is ready. Lets not rush and make mistakes.

In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy looking at some of the footage from cameras that are already out there. Everyone keep posting!

Jim Hoffman

10-14-2007, 08:03 AM

My expectations from you and your company are that you make the best product you can make and deliver the camera I was sold. (2 actually). I think you have a very innovative approach and refreshing company model. I look forward to info updates and am excited to receive my product. You've been clear all along about what you're trying to accomplish and the fact that schedules most likely will change. This so far has been very reasonable and fair. Offering a refund puts your money where your mouth is. I think people who are having a difficult time are very anxious to get the camera - thats a good thing. More info is better - but I also appreciate the idea that this is still a business and a company needs to focus on product development without revealing too much to their competitors.

Thanks - I look forward to my REDs.

Greg Syverson

10-14-2007, 08:24 AM

To lead without doubters and criticism is not leading at all. To lead with doubters an criticism is human and motivating. You are doing a great job! You have my respect Jim and Red Crew.

Keith Alan Morris

10-14-2007, 08:39 AM

Dont worry, be happy.

Its simple. You guys have always said, "Dates Subject to Change." If people still bitch, they weren't reading closely and therefore, too bad, so sad!

Mark Crabtree

10-14-2007, 08:53 AM

Jim,

I've been buying cameras since the late 70's and I've been thinking about the many communications I have had with the team leaders at Sony and Panasonic on the developement of their camera systems and how I have truly been part of the process to help them create camera systems that really serve the needs of the our entire production community and how they have been so open with me about their process, regularly letting me know what I should expect in terms of developement and delivery.

OH, WAIT JUST A MINUTE! I have NEVER had such communications! NO ONE from Sony or Panasonic, much less their team leaders, have EVER asked for my opinions or shared with me their process or updated me on their delivery esimates.

I've also been thinking about the many customers I have worked for over the years, and the many customers I work for now, and how some of them really "GET IT". Some of them appreciate that we try to make every project something to be proud of, and to deliver more than what they are paying for. They understand that we are human and sometimes it requires a little flexibility to get something done right. But some of them do not "GET IT". They only care about what they want, when they want it. These type of customers will never "GET IT" and they will always create problems because of their unreasonable "ALL ABOUT ME" attitude. My business only has about a hundred current customers. I can not imagine how many "JUST DON'T GET IT" customers I would have if I had 4,000 plus total people to deal with.

Your process is part of what makes your company so freaking amazing.
Please don't let the "JUST DON'T GET IT" people ruin it for the rest of us.

Finner

10-14-2007, 09:06 AM

Great idea Jim.

I am sooooo tired of hearing people bitch and whine as the release dates change. When I give an estimate to a customer on completion dates or even a simple how long will it take to get this scene I always pad it. I have found it to be one of the best ways to keep headaches and added stress out of my work day.

Just Pad your dates a bunch and then look like a hero when the cameras come earlier.

It still really perplexes me that some people are more interested in getting a camera now instead of getting a camera that is right.

Joe Vinson

10-14-2007, 09:17 AM

Hmm...

I have to admit it's frustrating, after the dates have been pushed back so many times (remember "first cameras delivered late '06"?), to hear you say "add three months." For those whose camera number is scheduled to come up in a month or two, that's an additional 150-300% wait.

I was also surprised by the rollout schedule -- how the plan went from 25 per month to 400 -- and wondered how in the heck you planned to accomplish such a feat.

For future products, I think you should adopt a more conservative (realistic?) approach to shipping dates. But we've gotten used to taking the good news with the bad around here, and I think we better just stay on that road for the Red One. We all agree that open, honest communication is best, and part of why we like your company so much.

So, ah, seriously... how much of a delay are we talking here?

number6

10-14-2007, 09:26 AM

We have tried our best to keep everyone posted on an up-to-minute account of our delivery schedule. That has always been the schedule we have internally of what we can do with the information we have at any given time. I'm wondering if that hasn't been a mistake.

There are so many things that can (and have) gone wrong, that maybe the best thing to do is to go to a more traditional way of forcasting? Take our internal forecasts, add three months as a safety, and then try to beat the schedule?

We have been "talking out loud" in an effort to be as open as conceivably possible. Should we go back to a more conservative approach? I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.

Jim
There is research out "there" that says if a person is interrupted, it takes an average of about 14 minutes or so to get back to being fully immersed in what they were doing. If you feel all of you get more work done by not coping with individual "desires" from reduser forum members, that's cool.

On the other hand, British General "Monty" Montgomery made sure the entire 8th Army, from the lowest ranks on up, knew the battle plan for the breakout against Erwin "The Desert Fox" Rommel at El Alemein. The British pushed the vaunted Afrika Corp all the way back to Tobruk.

All I'm sayin' is there's benefits to either approach you choose. But you sir, are the Red ******.... so LEAD, MADDOG IT! LEAD!

That is, if that's alright with you..... Sir.

Michael Mann

10-14-2007, 09:35 AM

I'd appreciate if you'd continue to talk out loud.

Ricardo Mehedff

10-14-2007, 09:51 AM

i'm with ya all the way!!

Michael Schrengohst

10-14-2007, 09:57 AM

There is research out "there" that says if a person is interrupted, it takes an average of about 14 minutes or so to get back to being fully immersed in what they were doing. If you feel all of you get more work done by not coping with individual "desires" from reduser forum members, that's cool.

On the other hand, British General "Monty" Montgomery made sure the entire 8th Army, from the lowest ranks on up, knew the battle plan for the breakout against Erwin "The Desert Fox" Rommel at El Alemein. The British pushed the vaunted Afrika Corp all the way back to Tobruk.

All I'm sayin' is there's benefits to either approach you choose. But you sir, are the Red ******.... so LEAD, MADDOG IT! LEAD!

That is, if that's alright with you..... Sir.

Heh Heh, that is why I encourage clients to come in while I edit
their project while the clock is running! I average 50% more billable
time by doing so. After the first few projects the clients "get it"
and tell me to just do it. I would much rather be busy all day
with projects without client involvement. I get way more done
and I can deliver on time and thus garner more projects. I know
how Jim feels.

Babu Kantamneni

10-14-2007, 10:46 AM

number6

10-14-2007, 10:54 AM

12 more posts before you hit 1000 mark Jim.
If you are big brother in our family of redusers and if we are hungry and you went out to hunt for breakfast(Pancakes or sausage biscuits or)and you are held up in traffic and the little ones are crying with hunger and some even saying they never liked their bigbrother (because you were slightly delayed) anyway:
"would you answer the cell phone from home?"
Babu

Babu... that's babel.

Mike Smith

10-14-2007, 10:57 AM

Jim,

For anyone who is actually listening to what you have said all along, it is well known that the dates you give are best case. And that is the right approach in my opinion. What I don't want is for you to pad the dates then tell me 2-3 months early that my camera is ready. Now I have to come up with the money much earlier than expected. Since this is a personal purchase for me, I need to know the EARLIEST I will need to have the cash available.

Those folks who are planning a big shoot the day after they're tentatively scheduled to take delivery are, at best, not very experienced in the industry. Those seeking a "competitive advantage" (someone actually said that in this thread somewhere), if that really is your motivation, why aren't you renting NOW? Why wait for your own camera? That competitive advantage goes away with time. If it really exists (does a real movie maker really care about such things?), it is at its peek now!

Babu Kantamneni

10-14-2007, 11:07 AM

Babu... that's babel.

Did you mean Babble?

C.H.Haskell

10-14-2007, 11:09 AM

So what are you trying to say Jim? ;)

Mike Smith

10-14-2007, 11:10 AM

...but to keep the whiney butts at bay, why not just e-mail directly reservation holders only with estimated dates? On this forum, merely tell everyone what camera number you have just delivered every so often with at most an extremely loose date for camera 1000, 2000, 4000 etc. - like 2000 sometime in spring/summer.

Michael Stanmore

10-14-2007, 11:50 AM

The old saying is true. The truth can hurt. Instead of lying to us and padding out the release schedule with a lot of possibly unnessary time, which would be as condesending as the rest of the business world...you're treating us like the big boys and girls we are and playing it straight. I applaud that thinking and hope it continues throughout the rest of the product line.

It's possibly those people who are buying to rent out that may have gotten themselves in a bit of a pickle by not allowing for any unforseeable delays in the delivery of their camera.

We're all aware that this is the first of a new line of products. We should hope for no delays, but plan for them on our end. It's the most basic consideration.

So in my opinion you keep on truckin' Jim and let us go on stressing. If we're stressing it only means we still care enough to stress. Don't coddle us.

Mik.

David Battistella

10-14-2007, 12:03 PM

Jim,

The approach has been amazing it just needs continuity. If I knew that sometime Sunday night Jim does a weekly or bi weekly update of the "State of RED", and it was front page on the website or here, then it would serve RED and the users best.

You get to condense a weeks worth of stuff into one brief blurb per week. The rest of the time you can use posts to probe and inquire.

Realize that many people check in here to see what YOU have posted because so much of it rests in your hands, so I think you would be doing the community a great service to provide an "official red update" at timed interval to lessen the amount of rumor and misinformation.

David
I've PM'd Jarred and Rob Lohman my suggestions on one type of sticky I feel could work in conjunction with a weekly update and it considers what users will need when you are past this phase and have many more users to deal with.

Craig Bowman

10-14-2007, 12:09 PM

Jim, are you getting the feeling that reduser.net has become the kids in the backseat asking "Are we there yet?" every five seconds?

I like the idea of a regular posting, but only once every two weeks. You guys need some time to work without interuption.

Personally I like information updates whatever it reveals. Knowing the truth is always better than knowing nothing.

I like rollercoaster rides. If everything went smooth all the time it wouldn't be as exciting!!

Casey Green

10-14-2007, 12:35 PM

I second the weekly (or perhaps bi-monthly) updates sticky thread which RedUsers can't comment on in that thread.

You might also update through other Red Forum sites. :)

pjletofsky

10-14-2007, 12:37 PM

Dear Jim;
Take the night off....go for a long walk....re evaluate, regroup, and re visualize the BIG picture. Trust your instincts, your gut....

How would you like to be respected if you were on the other side while balancing the harsh realities of developing new technolgy workflows, with the manufacturing, business, distribution issues and delays that inevitably arise?

You have assembled a dream team of talent, and brought us all this far, and we trust your judgements. We've seen the pictures. I personally think the new innovative 'business model' you are creating on how to develop and market RED is refreshing, and will be an example for the future for all of us. You make us feel part of the family.

I can be patient for the camera, but I can't wait for the movie, 'the making of RED'.

number6

10-14-2007, 12:54 PM

Did you mean Babble?

Yes, thanks. THAT was insightful. I am :poster_stupid:

Paul Hazlett

10-14-2007, 02:27 PM

I like the updates, its only when the updates become attempts at deception
have I found product updates annoying.

We have all dealt with manufacturerers that have buffaloed customers for one reason or another. Keep it real, if there is a problem let us know what it
is and how you are addressing it.

I believe you and your staff have done a great job at keeping me in the loop,
It makes me feel like more than just a customer and part of something bigger.

Keep on keepin on, thanks

Jay A. Kelley

10-14-2007, 02:56 PM

I was wondering if anyone liked my idea of weekly updates.. It just kind of died there, good to see it's been picked up and has some traction again.

I strongly believe that this dependability will solve most of what's going on right now.

Post

10-14-2007, 03:20 PM

Jim,

There is a saying that goes "No good deed goes unpunished". Since the very beginning of this project, Jim has been forthright, upfront, and honest. I’ve always admired a guy who always wants to do the right thing, regardless of how much he is criticized. I see Jim trying to do the “good dead” but getting punished in the process. It's like it's never enough.

The difficulty I see is that Jim and the team give us information about what they’ve done, how this will impact production and a possible slip in the shipping times and he ends up getting crucified with complaints. We’ve seen this played out several times on the board. I’d hate to see how many PM’s he receives in any given day…not to mention the fact that he has a camera and a company to build. I appreciate the fact that Jim has been willing to respond personally to some of the posts here on the board. I don’t know too many CEO’s /billionaires who have this level of commitment and openness with their customers. All the criticism would definitely lead one to be more conservative with what is posted and the frequency in which it appears. I’m sure the question “why do I do this” comes up often.

I understand that there may be delays. Stuff happens…it’s a part of life. Get used to it. Relax. The camera will come when it’s ready. Unfortunately, many of us are like children. When we don’t get our way….we pout, we stammer, we get ticked. It’s understandable to be a little disappointed when things don’t go as expected but let’s cut them some slack. This is an extremely difficult task Jim and the Red Team have undertaken. I don’t see anyone on the board stepping up to do the same thing.

The last thing that I want to point out is that each of us should glad that the world has a guy like Jim Jannard. He’s taken a leap into the unknown and each of us are privileged to be able to go along for the ride.

I’m often reminded of this quote by Theodore Roosevelt:

It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.

Each of us then, before we criticize, should think about where each of us would be without Jim and the Team at Red. How many of us would even have this type of opportunity within the next 5-10 years if it weren’t for their efforts. I applaud Jim’s willingness to take the leap, to be in the arena, to share information openly and to allow us to experience the “revolution” first hand.

Dee

KETCH ROSSi

10-14-2007, 04:11 PM

Well Jim,

if you know it will take 1 month, say it will take 3, then do it in 2, this way every one will say you are the best.

But I know you are not looking for this, your approche has been great to follow up and take inspiration by it, it was obvious from the begin that delay after delay would make many unhappy (not me, I undertsand).

My whish is that you continue the way you are doing it now, as for me is in line with your company radical approche to everything so far, so why change?

RED is not, and hope never will be, just one other company, it is a revolutionary company, so please, do continue to treated that way.

you can not (ever) make every one happy.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

Rocco Schult

10-14-2007, 05:28 PM

I was wondering if anyone liked my idea of weekly updates..

For me one question is (tentative or not), why is there a schedule at all ?
Everybody knew its tentative and all, so a professional shouldn't count on it, right ?
But what then is it for ? This is tease and denial. And boy that hurts. Let me on those wonderful...

Secondly I guess you may fear another delay may come and how to communicate it.

Please be open, tell us what happens, but don't give a schedule if it can not be met.
Paul asked, in other words though, how should the ramping should have happened and he's probably not the only one.

Theres a diference between being honest (what you say) and giving info (what we want!).
And the info - honesty in detail if you like - is pretty unspecific sometimes and occasional as Jay pointed out.

Keep it real, yeah, but don't give schedules if you can't.
And past shows, the schedule leads to misunderstandings.
If I can't plan, if nobody, not even you can, don't give one.
Give it when its nailed down.

Also, please let people work with the tools, some footage, so they can catch up a little bit of their timing. And maybe one or another gets his hands on somebody elses cam to produce some test footage himself and play with it along his way of waiting.

You've not given away too much control, you've left too much space for speculation.

Predictability, like Jay says, is the key.

Desert Rune

10-14-2007, 05:34 PM

Some people here have serious entitlement issues...

There's a really good reason why companies like Sony and Panasonic only release a product when it's ready and able to ship. Being transparent and "open" to your customers is not always the best policy.

C.H.Haskell

10-14-2007, 05:39 PM

As witnessed 1st hand. I second that Rune...although still spices things up and hopefully this method can and will remain stable.

Emanuel A.

10-14-2007, 05:40 PM

Being transparent and "open" to your customers is always the best RED policy. This has made RED.

Steve Sherrick

10-14-2007, 05:48 PM

Some people here have serious entitlement issues...
It's called a deposit. Some of us have been floating that money for some time. So, there is a bit of entitlement. But Jim understands that, and that is why he has been open about things, because people took a leap of faith and put their money down to support this ambitious project.

I think Jay Kelley is right on about updates needing to happen on the Red site. This forum, although a deep rooted community that Jim and the rest of Red are a big part of, is too informal for what I think many of us are looking for. A webpage on Red.com that updates things in a formal, honest manner, that is clear and concise. A place we can check in on a regular basis and get the latest reports on where things are with Red products. There's no deep threads to wade through, just facts. After a report, the conversation can continue on this forum, but getting the facts from Red directly will always be easy to find.

Jim, I for one do appreciate what you are doing and I have had no problem putting my faith in you guys. I just think the next step is to keep everything official on the Red site. Not only do we all get to check in, but others who are considering the camera purchase who may not know about this site can check in as well. I think it will work out best for you guys.

That's my opinion, and I know it's going to come under fire a bit, but keep in mind guys that I support this company wholeheartedly.

Steve

Bogdan Tyburczy

10-14-2007, 05:49 PM

Jim,

Keep us honestly informed - we like it so far. Don't switch RED to cold corporate entity.

Most of us understand how complicated the whole process is and we appreciate your efforts and openness.

Thank you.

Mike Smith

10-14-2007, 05:58 PM

For me one question is (tentative or not), why is there a schedule at all ?
Everybody knew its tentative and all, so a professional shouldn't count on it, right ?
But what then is it for ?
To give folks like me an idea when to have my cash ready. I want the earliest possible date that delivery might occur if all goes perfectly. That way I'm not caught out without my funds in place. I expect it will most likely be later than this since development rarely goes perfectly. Anyone depending on a delivery schedule for a product still under development is just begging for disappointment.

dvpixl

10-14-2007, 06:28 PM

All's good with me so far as well. I think Jim and Co are doing what they can and when they can in exchange for making a crazy machine affordable.

Hrvoje Simic

10-14-2007, 06:43 PM

No "conservative" approach. Ever.
Innovativeness would suffer.

RED modus operandi is unique.
People love that. You have a chance to prove that this model can work and set an example for others.
It won't be easy, but every new approach needs additional effort. The tougher it is, the greater the reward.
It all balances in the end. Always.

No turning back. Don't follow the rules.
Make new ones.

Because you can.

Just follow the vision.

Florian Stadler

10-14-2007, 06:55 PM

Jim

I'd rather have a camera with a properly collimated mount, a mount that is not sticky and all hardware and software kinks worked out then having it come in 2 months earlier. I would never put my reputation on the line with a partially working camera. There are numerous solid image acquisition systems out there for rent in the interim.

Respect

Mike Smith

10-14-2007, 07:37 PM

Jim

I'd rather have a camera with a properly collimated mount, a mount that is not sticky and all hardware and software kinks worked out then having it come in 2 months earlier.
You want all that, then you want it 2 months earlier as well?

Chris Forbes

10-14-2007, 07:53 PM

We have tried our best to keep everyone posted on an up-to-minute account of our delivery schedule. That has always been the schedule we have internally of what we can do with the information we have at any given time. I'm wondering if that hasn't been a mistake.

There are so many things that can (and have) gone wrong, that maybe the best thing to do is to go to a more traditional way of forcasting? Take our internal forecasts, add three months as a safety, and then try to beat the schedule?

We have been "talking out loud" in an effort to be as open as conceivably possible. Should we go back to a more conservative approach? I'd be happy to hear your thoughts.

Jim

Jim,

The problem with internet forums is that you can never tell how you should take something. On one hand this could be a genuine wide eye plea for input on you part, on the other hand this could be the nicest way I have seen to say "Shut the hell up, you whiny bastards". Most likely it is somewhere in between.

I hope that the transparency continues. I know the enormous stress you all are under to produce results. I have read some fairly insistent posts. But to put this in perspective take a gander at the development of the Sony XDCAM EX. Appeared at NAB under glass and then not a word, not a single syllable of new information until last month at IBC. Then with the first "release date" of Nov 1st the Sony fans are staring at the big blue wall hoping for any crack in the expanse. With less than 4 weeks till release they still don't have a price for the camera or know what it will ship with as far as accessories. Rumors abound, but the head of Sony is not posting on www.blueuser.net .

I hope that the "whiny bastards" don't win this round. Keep up the good fight.

:gun: Some of us have got your back. :gun:

Mark Thorpe

10-14-2007, 07:54 PM

I'll take mine when its ready. I'm gonna be working flat out til then and beyond on the latest project so no worries. Whenever its ready is fine with me.

Cheers,
Mark

I Bloom

10-14-2007, 09:15 PM

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yeah RED's got some great technology, but it's also this business style that you have developed and this relationship that you have been fostering with your customer base that seems to me to be the heart and soul of this phenomenon. In the long run your competitors may catch up with you technology wise, but they won't have the relationship with this community that you have created.

Watching this forum since January it seems like every time you give your customers insight into your project they reward you with information, oppinions and loyalty. Every time you keep them slightly in the dark they get annoyed and distrustful. (I think the recent thread about FUD regarding REDCODE support on different post production platforms is a good example.) Any step away from that openness is closing a door and treating us a little more like the other guys do. IMHO you should counterintuitively be even more open than you are... it seems like it has served you every time.

I think many of us are coming to understand the difficulty you must be having creating a production line that can manufacture hundreds of cameras in a month. Any disappointment I experienced initially from delays has been replaced by this calm understanding.

So for me it's a simple change in how the message is cast. Instead of publishing dates that end up appearing like some kind of promise, just give us as much information as you feel is healthy for your bussiness so that we can try our best to predict this delivery.

Even if the announced delivery dates are a best case scenario, it's still very valuable information, to know that "It may happen as early as such and such a date." From my point of view any information is a valuable favor that we can use to plan, even if we have to understand that the plan may be delayed.

The padding is not neccessary, that's a Panasonic/Sony move.

Warm Regards,
IBloom

Rick Darge

10-14-2007, 09:25 PM

I agree with ibloom..

I'd rather have dates slip than a 3-month vague buffer any day.

dvpixl

10-14-2007, 09:47 PM

Jim

I'd rather have a camera with a properly collimated mount, a mount that is not sticky and all hardware and software kinks worked out then having it come in 2 months earlier.

You want all that, then you want it 2 months earlier as well?

he meant THAN not THEN, methinks.

ChristopherKenworthy

10-14-2007, 09:51 PM

The current style of openess is best for Red users. I can see why it's difficult for a business such as Red; it makes you vulnerable to criticism, and to avoid that you could easily hide every delay behind a false schedule. I hope you keep going with the honesty. The more you tell us, the easier it is to keep financiers happy, for example. That's really important. One reason we're able to invest a fortune in a Red feature film, is that we get enough honest feedback to know where we stand.

Todd Anderson

10-14-2007, 10:14 PM

I say please take the time necessary to make everything 99.9% right. If it is another 3 months delay, so be it. This project would have taken years to come to fruition along some other channel, if at all. And especially at that price point. I think everyone is already spoiled in many ways.

The project has already been validated as a complete success even in its beta run. I don't think too many can argue otherwise. But take the time needed to get it right. It's not going to help anyone to have a product that is rushed.

And stop worry so much, Jim. It's going to kill you.

Mike Smith

10-14-2007, 10:30 PM

he meant THAN not THEN, methinks.
Ah yes. Got it.

Jason Ing

10-14-2007, 10:33 PM

Conservative? You? Jim? :)

Where would we all be if you thought like that? Cameraless... that's where.

Don't do it. Don't cave in to "them".

Don't stop the frank, open communication.

As far as all the comments and attitude that made you reconsider your "thinking out loud", it just comes with the territory. So don't let it phase you.

But for each whiner, naysayer, wet rag, and chicken little, there's a dozen customers who greatly appreciates your news... all of it, good or bad. You just don't hear them as much because the handful of "others" are professional whiners. Bottom line is, they're still going to wait in line like everyone else to buy the camera.

It's like a cross country, family bus ride. (Red or Bust). There's always a few who constantly whine, "Are we there yet?"

Let's not let them ruin the trip for everyone else.