Los Angeles Red Users group

[Shane V8F]

I saw a thread several days ago about Red owners in LA getting together to establish some sort of quality level structure for pricing out the Red for rental. I have not been able to find the thread again, but would like to talk with interested individuals. It would be great to have a list of owners in Los Angeles and other areas to be able to bounce work off of.

One of my companies deals with remote camera cranes. It used to be a great business, but because of the relative cheap price of the cranes, the market was flooded with them. We use to get an established rental rate for the gear, but so many people have multiple crane arms that they basically give them to the producers for less and less. It is very hard to compete with these individuals that have several arms.

This hurts the whole industry. I don't want to see this happen to the Red camera rentals. Because of the relative cheap price of the camera there is going to be several companies that have several cameras. They will be forced to rent them out for less than rate card just to keep them working all the time.

This is going to happen unless we can create some sort of agreement with Red owners to keep the price fixed at a certain rate. This doesn't mean you can't help out a shoot in need, but the deal needs to make sense.

We tried to do this with the cranes but people didn't listen. Now the rental market is run by a few large companies, and the rest get to pick up the leftovers.

I HOPE THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN WITH THE RED!

You have been warned!

I would like to join other Red users in Los Angeles to try and keep the Red value as high as possible for as long as possible.

Maybe if we set up a referral system that would work like this it may keep the quality high:

1. Data base of owners in the area. and posted schedules
2. Base low limit price, with exceptions. Members of this referal site agree to not rent gear out for less then a certain price unless approved by X amount of users of the site.
3. A Referral commission will be paid to the other Red owner passing the job along.
4. A small fee to keep name on the referral site. This fee would be to pay for the website, and keep it updated.

Just a thought, but one that should be considered.

V8F

P.S. Does anyone know how many Red's are reserved for the Southern California area?

[Rick Darge]

I am all for beginning the list right here

1) Richard Darge, Los Angeles, Red #363

[Cail Young]

Mmm, price-fixing. Tread carefully.

[Ben Feuer]

Price-fixing is illegal.

I had heard about that situation with the crane arms from a guy named Johnny London on a shoot a while back. It does sound really disappointing. I think that the best we can do as RED owners and users is try to offer a sufficient guarantee of quality and reliability that we remain an attractive option even if some places undercut on price.

[Shane V8F]

I never said anthing about price fixing. I just suggested a base minimum with options, you could always charge more. Think of it as the union base minimum labor rate, but for equipment rentals. Going lower than the base price has to be taken on a job to job basis. As long as it makes sense and keeps the quality of Red high you should take the job. Giving a 2 or 3 day rental week when a production wants the camera for three months, go for it.

Trust me, if RED is everything I know it will be, Producers are going to want to use it for their productions. They will pay for it at whatever rate is established, but they will always go after the lower price deal when it comes to gear rentals.

I have no idea what the base price should be, but I would think if they want to shoot 4K it should be at least around what you would pay for an F900 or Vericam. If you are shooting SD the price could be lower for the rental. Just a thought.

Lets face it, most of the industry doesn't take the Red camera seriously. They will pay huge money for a Viper, Genesis or the like, but a camera coming from the owner of a Sunglass company is not going to be taken seriously. We as owners and users have to establish the quality of the camera from the very first delivery. We do this by not giving the camera away for rental. Enough big DP's are already in the Red corner, they will help legitimize the camera. All it takes is one blockbuster shot using the Red, and the industry will be knocking down the doors to get their hands on the camera.

Look what has happened to all the other expensive editing systems like Avid since Final Cut Pro came out at such a low price point. Now every Tom, Dick, and Harry that can read a manuel and push buttons can be an editor. It doesn't make them a good editor, but they have the ability to cut video. A good editor used to make $120 an hour, now there are guys that will cut shows for $20 or less an hour, and use their own gear.

I just don't want to see this happen with Red. Red has a great low price point for what it is. It just opens the doors for every T,D,&H to buy one.


V8F

[Noah Kadner]

Shane-

Sorry but setting a "base minimum" is exactly price-fixing. That could happen perhaps in a socialist country but in the U.S. it's not legal in any way shape or form. It's not about what's fair it's about what the market will bear. And also sorry you don't like Avid's monopoly on editing was broken by Apple(and a lot of other NLE's) but that's also how it goes.

At $17K Red was clearly created with free market in mind and *not* setting some artificial prices to protect rental houses, other camera manufacturers or whatever it is that motivates you. Clearly not the interests of filmmakers because we all just love to pay the maximum artificially high price to get our hands on new cameras. Instead Red is more likely to force rental houses to offer better service and compete more strongly. And yes some of them will go out of business. That's how it's supposed to work...

And besides, your idea is just plain unworkable. What possible legal enforcement would this *agreement* have? If one single rental house decided to undercut the fixed price the coalition fails. And with good reason because it has no reason to exist in a free-market economy.

Noah

ps- I'd say with the sunglass crack this thread is not long for this forum as it falls squarely into the field of the hecklers. Perhaps you should have read this thread first:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58

[Ralph Oshiro]

Hmmm . . . well I have a few opinions on this subject.

I understand Shane's motivations, and if successful, this would potentially benefit many small, "independent," owner/operators. However . . .

1. First, lemme just get this formality out of the way: technically, price-fixing, even among individuals, is illegal.
2. However, labor unions negotiate rates for "independent" craftspeople. These independent craftspeople are in competiton for the same employers. Why is it okay for organized labor to engage in "price-fixing" wages?
3, Take a look at the case history under "price-fixing." Standard Oil. Alcoa. American Tobacco Company. Microsoft. AT&T. These are hugely different players involved in market dynamics of hugely different scales.
4. Even though I agree with you in spirit, Shane, I'm sorry, but no matter how well-intentioned (for owner/operators, at least) your system is, it simply isn't practical. That doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about it (although by the strict letter of the law, we can't).

All owner/operators can hope for is for some sort of "gentlemans' agreement" (and yes, technically, that is price-fixing) about what is "too low." Don't we all already do this for our current established rates? Don't we all know people who are just starting out, who have no idea what to charge? And we tell 'em, well, you shouldn't do 'X' for less than "$350/day." That's technically price-fixing, isn't it? Well, it happens every day, and it's simply a part of freelancing. We all know about what our rates should be in our respective markets, and when someone drastically undercuts those rates, it does cost people jobs. All I'm saying, is that, this is not a black and white issue. It's a gray area. Most, if not all, of us participate in collusion to some degree as freelancers--it's just the way it works. Oh by the way, what IS legal is "price leadership." Say for example, Big Time L.A. Rental company charges $XXX/day for RED. Well, we can all charge the same rate--we just can't tell each other (shhhh!).

P.S. Oh, I almost forgot! The main reason I meant to post in this thread was to talk about a Los Angeles RED Users Group--to have fun and share knowledge. I'm totally up for that!

[Finner]

ps- I'd say with the sunglass crack this thread is not long for this forum as it falls squarely into the field of the hecklers. Perhaps you should have read this thread first:


Give me a break Noah.

Do you for a second think Jim does not know he faces an up hill battle in gaining respect from all the "camera old boys" companies out there. A bunch have been bad mouthing Jim from the start. I think this probably just pumps up Jim and his team more to prove people wrong. Jim did not get to where he is without building a thick enough skin that Shanes comments (which are nothing more then stateing the obvious) would do nothing to effect a bussiness man as big as Jim.

As far as price fixing goes legally what Shane mentions is not even close to that area. Price fixing is a law set in place to keep multiple company monopolies from happening and even if a group of companies are found to do this it just takes one company to sell or rent the exact same product for 1 penny less for price fixing not be proved. So I really doubt everyone with a red camera in LA will join what Shane mentions here and cause a price fixing dilema. Many companies have set prices and products have manufacturers recomended sales price on their product and no one cries "price fixing". A basic rental standard price is a great idea Shane and no where close to treading on the area of price fixing but like many mention it just takes a few people to lower their price to make everything fall apart. At least if a bunch of you come to a decision on a general rental price it will be much more difficult for producers to play you against each other which is the biggest threat a larger market like LA will face.

[Casey Green]

If anyone is interested, I've started a forum that is mainly catering to L.A. based Red enthusiasts and users, but open to everyone. Can't get enough? Stop on by!

www.CaseyGreen.tv

I am a member of the local 695 Union of Video and Sound engineers and hope to attract many of my fellow colleagues to look at the Red One.

I plan on renting a Red on some projects in the not too distant future, if my directing aspirations come to fruition.

hope to see you stop by...

[Noah Kadner]

Give me a break Noah.

Do you for a second think Jim does not know he faces an up hill battle in gaining respect from all the "camera old boys" companies out there. A bunch have been bad mouthing Jim from the start. I think this probably just pumps up Jim and his team more to prove people wrong. Jim did not get to where he is without building a thick enough skin that Shanes comments (which are nothing more then stateing the obvious) would do nothing to effect a bussiness man as big as Jim.

As far as price fixing goes legally what Shane mentions is not even close to that area. Price fixing is a law set in place to keep multiple company monopolies from happening and even if a group of companies are found to do this it just takes one company to sell or rent the exact same product for 1 penny less for price fixing not be proved. So I really doubt everyone with a red camera in LA will join what Shane mentions here and cause a price fixing dilema. Many companies have set prices and products have manufacturers recomended sales price on their product and no one cries "price fixing". A basic rental standard price is a great idea Shane and no where close to treading on the area of price fixing but like many mention it just takes a few people to lower their price to make everything fall apart. At least if a bunch of you come to a decision on a general rental price it will be much more difficult for producers to play you against each other which is the biggest threat a larger market like LA will face.

So fixing a high rental price is how Red will gain legitimacy because high price equals high quality? That's kinda silly. For most smart DP's, high quality=high quality. Thankfully Shane does not control the market...

-Noah

[Rick Darge]

Lets talk rates..

RedOne + 320GB magazine + rail system of some sort for support = roughly $20K

Most rental houses charge 5-10% of the total cost so i would expect at least $1000 a day for this package, $750 the lowest - Anything lower and the market will flop to people renting out this camera for dirt cheap just to get a job - As red shooters, we have to offer quality and professionalism to oust our competition - The shooter should be just as important as the camera, always factor that into your price

[Finner]

So fixing a high rental price is how Red will gain legitimacy because high price equals high quality? That's kinda silly. For most smart DP's, high quality=high quality. Thankfully Shane does not control the market...

-Noah

I did not mention anything about a high price or did Shane. All that was talked about was a fair price. If you want to buy a red and rent it for $50 a day go ahead, no one is stopping you. For others though that want to re-coup some of their costs and risk we need to make some money. Like I have mentioned before though rental will be determined by supply and demand.

More then likely I see things going down like this. At the begining demand will become fairly high and supply will be low so rental will probably be at quite a high percentage compared with the actual cost of the camera. This will make the early adopters a quite a bit of money. In turn this will get a lot more people interested in getting in the game as they crunch numbers and in time rental price will go way down as supply goes way up. A "fair" rental price for a red has nothing to do with its cost and everything to do with demand. I think every owner should try and make as much as possible at the beginning because rental prices are bound to drop over time.

[Roxco]

If anyone is interested, I've started a forum that is mainly catering to L.A. based Red enthusiasts and users, but open to everyone. Can't get enough? Stop on by!

www.RedCamCentral.com

hope to see you stop by...

Your post may be pulled from here shortly as was my post offering an email based Yahoo forum - Red-LA.

Some of us prefer email to online for technical support/discussions, but I also understand Jarred or whoever is defending his/her turf.

Rosco

P.S. Here's my link so he/she can pull both of these posts: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Red-LA/

[Shane V8F]

NoahK, If you read my post, I never said that I was not a beliver in Red. Why would I be on the list to buy one if I thought it was not going to be great.

I have been working in Hollywood for over 20 years, and know the industry is name driven. Once a piece of equipment is established as working good, the industry latches on to it and doesn't want to change over to anything new. They are pretty locked into Sony / Panavision.

There are a few big filmmakers out there with vision, and are willing to take chances with new gear. Do you think the HD 24P rollout would have happened as fast as it did if George Lucas wouldn't have shot Star Wars II with F900's? Film purists were very negative toward HD until that happened, most still are. HD had been out for years before Lucas tried it.

Maybe I should not call it a base minimum, but an OSRP (Owners Suggested Rental Price). As Finner said, all companies have an MSRP for product, and try to sell it for as close as possible to MSRP. Is that illegal? I doubt anyone will be able to score a Red camera any lower than the MSRP. Is that price fixing?

I agree with Finner, it will all come down to supply and demand. It is the same thing that happened with the cranes. Once the market was flooded the rental price dropped. The only advantage as an owner operator is to be able to offer the client something more. As an O&O you have an advantage over a rental house that just rents the cameras. You have your expertise that goes along with the package. The more experienced and better craftsperson you are the more you will be able to charge for your package.

NoahK, I don't know if you work in LA, but believe it or not higher prices generally does get you more respect. This goes along with not only rentals, but also with labor. Would a Director be taken seriously, if he was making as much as a PA. We all know who works harder on the set. It doesn't make sense, but in most situations it's true. Everytime I've had to cut my rate on a shoot, I've had to work twice as hard and get a lot of grief from the client. When the rates are higher you get a lot more respect. The quality of the work for both jobs are the same, it's just, you get more respect on the higher paying job.

If we want to break Red into the big time, we have to compete with the big camera manufactures that are already locked in the industry. If Red is percieved as a toy, by the industry, this will never happen.

Please don't read me wrong by my posts. I love Red, and have a lot ridding on it's success in the industry. I am just a little Jadded by all my years in this town. I have witnessed many good products and ideas come and go because they were not taken seriously. Red has to be so ingrained in the industry before the other camera companies catch up, that there will be no reason for productions to switch to another format other than Red. Look what Apple did with the iPod. It was so intrenched as the number one mp3 player that by the time the Zune came out nobody wanted one. They both do the same thing, but people like the ipod. I am not sure but I think the Zune is cheaper.

I know there is no way to enforce a price, but if we had a list of owners and could have those owners pass jobs around to each other. This would be great. Red owners could post Jobs they are unable to do on a website, other Red owners could contact the production companies to get the job. Just a thought.

The crane manufacture I use, has a web site that lists all the crane owner operators. It also gives where they are located around the world. I do get calls from time to time from this site.

We have an advantage of being able to talk about these topics, and try to figure out a solution before the camera is delivered.

V8F

P.S. Can't we all just get along? It's up to us and the RED to make this all work!

[Shane V8F]

rgdfilmsRED, Are you saying $750 - $1000 including your labor as a shooter? If it is for camera package only what should be included with the camera and storage (Audio, Sticks, lights)?

[Ralph Oshiro]

What I've found to be a successful formula in the past, is to take Big Time Rental Company's daily rate, and use that as a "standard." I'll often knock off $50 or $100 from that rate to effect a perceived discount. This is not price-fixing, it's totally legal, and it's what most of us will probably end up doing anyway. Clients don't balk, because when you tell them, "Well, Big Time Rental Company charges $XXX," they go, "okay." Because they know they're typically getting a higher level of customer service from an owner/operator than from a large rental house, and that if Big Time Rental Company charges that rate, it must be a fair market rate.

[Ralph Oshiro]

I know there is no way to enforce a price, but if we had a list of owners and could have those owners pass jobs around to each other.Shane, I think that's an EXTREMELY valid goal for The List. I often get asked for jobs that I cannot do, and I often refer work to other shooters. Someone just the other day asked if I knew of an HDW730 or F900 owner/operator they needed to hire. Maybe the next set I visit, the DP will ask, "Hey, do you know where I could rent five RED ONEs for three months?"

[Blaine Golden]

What I've found to be a successful formula in the past, is to take Big Time Rental Company's daily rate, and use that as a "standard." I'll often knock off $50 or $100 from that rate to effect a perceived discount. This is not price-fixing, it's totally legal, and it's what most of us will probably end up doing anyway. Clients don't balk, because when you tell them, "Well, Big Time Rental Company charges $XXX," they go, "okay." Because they know they're typically getting a higher level of customer service from an owner/operator than from a large rental house, and that if Big Time Rental Company charges that rate, it must be a fair market rate.Makes a lot of sense, Ralph. :cool:

[Ken Corben]

I'm just wondering how current tape based clients will react to, "well I need to run the 4K RAW footage I just shot for you thru my redcine software before I deliver a portable hard drive to your editor...might be a little tough with most clients to start, no?

[Ben Feuer]

I wouldn't think so - a lot better than "well, there's this 50 lb RAID array, you have to take it with you everywhere".

@Ralph - Does your undercut by 50-100 strategy include yourself as a shooter? Do you vary rates depending on what you're asked to do on set?

[poppe]

I'm not to interested in this price thing you all are talking about, but me still not able to afford a Red Camera would still love to come to the group meetings so that when I'm done saving up I can get it, and know a whole lot about it.

[Greg]

I am in Santa Monica. I am # 1050 so projected date I will get mine is September or October.

I have SD 302 3 channel mixer
Schoeps mic with MK41 cap
1 Sennheiser wireless system (plug plus body back and one reciever)
1 handleld mic
1 DVX100A
1 DVX100B
8ft Kessler crane
tripod
2 kino flo 4 banks
2 kino flo parabeam 200
1 - 1k fresnel
1 - 250 watt fresnel


I also am a photographer
I shoot digital with Nikon D200
I have lots of strobes and softboxes.

I bust my ass and can often do the work of several people. I dislike being on set and standing around 90% of the time so only accept work where I can have lots of duties and be kept busy.

I must be paid and also paid for any equipment I use on the shoot.

-Greg
310 980 0239
admin@badmac.com

[Holosynthetic]

In the coming months I wanted to put together an acting reel, something a little out of the ordinary. If anyone wanted to help me make it by contributing lighting equipment, black screens for a backdrop, boom mics, etc. I would be most appreciative, along with allowing you to use my RED camera in future projects free of charge.

-Vincent

[Ralph Oshiro]

In the coming months I wanted to put together an acting reel, something a little out of the ordinary. If anyone wanted to help me make it by contributing lighting equipment, black screens for a backdrop, boom mics, etc. I would be most appreciative, along with allowing you to use my RED camera in future projects free of charge.

-Vincent

Vincent:

Since I'm reservation-holder #1148, and you're reservation-holder #510, that sounds like an attractive offer! Give a call when you get it! Also, you're welcome to list your RED gear in my online database of RED owners in the soon-to-be-launched, RED411.net site!

Best regards,

Ralph Oshiro
818-535-4743

[Ken Corben]

Wow, that's a great offer form a seasoned lighting DP/operator like Ralph - your new reel will really look fab! What the hell is an actor doing with RED reservation #510?

Just kidding, I know you are also a filmmaker - go get 'em.

[Holosynthetic]

well the reel would be relatively easy to set up, considering it would all take place in an all black environment. My reasoning for this is that all to often an actor will use their environment to make their character more believable, I however want to deliver a character without distractions or other actors. If I can't make you believe in my character in a raw situation, then adding in an appropriate environment won't do anything but mask the problem.

The setup however would include 10-15 different characters, non scripted, purely improv.

what am I doing with RED #510?...hoping to skip the casting couch ;)

[Jim McKinney]

Clients don't balk, because when you tell them, "Well, Big Time Rental Company charges $XXX," they go, "okay." Because they know they're typically getting a higher level of customer service from an owner/operator than from a large rental house, and that if Big Time Rental Company charges that rate, it must be a fair market rate.

I disagree with this assertion, unless it's a low quality Rental Company. Actually, the Big Guys can offer much better customer service in many cases because they have more resources to offer. "You want a full set of Ultra Primes or an Innovision lens with that Red? Sure, no problem. How about a Dutch Head or a set of those special filters? Oh, a grip bashed the camera by mistake? No problem, we'll send another Red out." The Red Camera is $17K. It's accessories could easily go over $100K.

That puts us owner/operators at a big disadvantage. It can also put your reputation as a d.p. at risk if something goes wrong with your camera. A lot of producers and directors have a higher comfort level going through a reputable rental house.

Owner/operators will have to work hard to build and maintain the confidence of their clients. One big opportunity for this user group is to share information as well as equipment and accessories.

Jim McKinney

[Koa M. Stone]

hey this sounds pretty cool-la red user group. I haven't posted much but hello, I can imagine this group is going to be the largest. I hope I don't get buried by all the talented people out here. Count me in for RED camera tests in la, or if you need an assistant...

~Koa

[Shane V8F]

Does anyone have an idea on how many people living in Southern California, pre ordered a RED?

[Jim McKinney]

Cinegear Expo this year. Any word that the RED might be there?

-Jim McKinney

[TJXCam]

Red said NO to Cinegear. Lame.

[Steven Parker]

I'm not sure we'll be able to set an "OSRP" -type base price, probably we'll need to do as Ralph and set our prices acording to the rental houses in town - and some rental houses here are very excited about Red...

I think demand will dictate the rates but the camera's too versatile for a standard rental structure. Will a client who needs (and understands) 1080 want to pay as much as the client who needs (and understands) 4K? Do we just shoot 4K and down-rez it for them? And who pays for that RedCine time then?

But I am totally into a LA group... find a B-body, get (or be) a RedCine tech, refer people for jobs you can't take... sounds great to me.

Steven Parker, Los Angeles, #1037 (Sept/Oct - I hope!)

[mdo]

Does anyone have an idea on how many people living in Southern California, pre ordered a RED?

I guess we'll start to find out once the user's group comes together. Anyone want to step up to the plate to run it? I can help out with some of the administration.

Also, I'm curious if there are any Red registration holders in the vicinity of Century City.

[Albert Cheng]

Yeah, I'm pretty close to Century City. You too? I often walk over their in the mornings for exercise.

[mdo]

One of my major clients is in the area. Ping me at mdobpgmr@yahoo.com and let's chat.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Cool. I'm sure there will be a ton of people in L.A. who have REDs coming.

When people say the rental prices for the RED will go "way down" after a while, I'm wondering what exactly that means. I mean, for instance, if one has a full set of accessories (a few zoom lenses, a prime set, etc.), a great tripod, good matte box, on-set laptop for capturing and logging, a backup RED camera body in case of failure, etc. etc., I would assume you could still get a fairly good amount of money per day from a package like that? I consider fairly good anything above $1,000, and that seems a bit low to me, but if that was worst case scenario for all that equipment, it wouldn't be world's end.

[David Mullen ASC]

I've heard that Clairmont Cameras has ordered ten RED cameras, so once they get them and decide on a rental price, I'm sure the smaller rental places will probably use that as a guide and offer the same thing slightly cheaper. Otherwise, it is going to be a bit of chaotic for awhile in the rental market regard ing the rental prices as the cameras stagger in to different people. So for the first six months or so, I'd expect some wild variations.

But I'll take a wild guess without any real facts to back it up (!) and guess that the major rental houses will probably rent the RED body in the $700/day range, so with a few necessary accessories (like a recorder) it will be more like $1000/day, which puts it in the Varicam rental range. 3-day week rental on a $700/day body is $2,100, so 9 weeks of rental, you'd pay for the body.

Beats renting the Sony F23, which will probably be a $3000/day rental. But despite what some people think, there are plenty of orders for the F23 coming in -- Clairmont has already bought and received three of them.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

mine will be 450 a day for the body with one 350gig drive, 2 batteries and charger.
$600 with evf, grips, rail, handle (basically body, recorder, production pack, another 350gig harddrive) another 2 batteries and charger.

$750 a day with all of the above plus nikon lens set, redrock mattebox, redrock follow focus,

[Tom Lowe]

I'm in OC.

Hopefully Clairmont and Able and some other houses will have REDs with data ports and RAID arrays to rent for people who want to overcrank at 4K.

[Mark Allen]

mine will be 450 a day for the body with one 350gig drive, 2 batteries and charger.
$600 with evf, grips, rail, handle (basically body, recorder, production pack, another 350gig harddrive) another 2 batteries and charger.

$750 a day with all of the above plus nikon lens set, redrock mattebox, redrock follow focus,

Well, when I need to rent a second camera, I think I know who I'm calling. :)

I think the first few months of RED rentals until the cameras get out to the 500's or so will be a bit chaotic and varied base on supply/demand.

I have reservation 89 and my co-workers are arguing whether we should rent it at all for the primary concern of "What happens to our production if it is broken on a production prior to ours?" Valid question.

[Steve Gibby]

I'll only rent #8 with me in the package as either DP, cinematographer, DIT, or along as simply security for the camera. My martial arts training will come in handy!

With #700 I'll have the same policy. I maintain my production equipment real well. I've found that others don't have that committment when they're using rented equipment. If I'm there on the set with my stuff I'll make sure they take care of it as I would - or they won't use it.

BTW - I'm based by San Luis Obispo (at Pismo Beach) on the Central Coast for lifestyle purposes (love it!), but when I'm not globetrotting for production work, I'm in the L.A. area an average of two or three days a week. I also fly out of L.A. for my national and international production work. My production partner, Ken Corben ("Sharkguy"), lives in L.A. and we have an office in L.A.

I'd like to be considered a member of the L.A. RED Users group.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Well, when I need to rent a second camera, I think I know who I'm calling. :)


for sureee.
call me up when in need. Ill even cruise on set and be a grip if needed for a small small nominal fee. (as long as my camera is being rented)

www.digitalcinemacameras.com

[David Ronan]

Don't know if anyone has time to take this to the next level, but I bought the domain name lareduser.com which I presently have redirected to the Red User Forum for LA Red users. Anyone want to make it its own site? I just wanted to reserve the name to keep it within our users.

I am presently located in the SF Bay area although I still keep an apartment in LA. I think I'd feel most comfortable renting out my camera package with a DIT, especially up here. Since I'm #1166, much ground work will have already been laid by the time my camera's on the market.

David

[Sam Druckerman]

LA Red user group?

I'm in.

As far as renting, I plan to go out with my camera or send a tech out with it as part of a package. I'm going to off set the cost of my Red package by renting, so I can buy more lenses, etc.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

So i posted on another thread.. but Would like to formally post the idea here!
Who would be down for a 1ce to 2ce a month breakfast club?
We would meet.. eat..and discuss the camera functions. We can learn from each other about new things found about our beloved Red One. any issues can be resolved with the help of fellow users. We can either call it Red Breakfast Club..
Or Red Users anonymous... but it would just be a real life forum accompanied by deliciousness and mimosas

[CalicoIce]

Hey guys I live in Vegas but would it be ok if I come down for the meets?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

who wants to make a website for this breakfast club?

[Rodney Recor]

Hello, Fellows.

I want to introduce myself to you. I am a picture producer and digital production consultant in Los Angeles. (I also have a home in North Carolina, so I have attempted to start a REDuser group there.) I am very excited about RED Digital. I have several feature projects that I'm developing that I hope to use the RED workflow to produce and I have several friends that have ordered a RED.

I would like like to join you, and I would like to make a website for "this breakfast club". I have developed many websites, some for the rich and famous in Hollywood, and I would be delighted to contribute in that way to this group. I only recently joined REDUser.net. I wanted to be sure that I was knowledgeable enough about the subject matter before jumping into this with you experts.

I have aleady written to a couple of you already about this, but I want to let you alll know about a web page that I have just put online, The Digital Cinema Information Base.

The first function on the website is a RED Owners list. The purpose of the list is to establish a place where producers like myself can easily find and contact RED owners, users, RED DPs, and other knowledgeable technicians like yourself. I predict that when producers realize the full potential and benefits of using RED, the demand for people like you will be significant. I feel that this owners list can be important in assisting and supporting RED production.

Please go to the database at www.rodneyrecor.com/Digital, take a look at what I've begun, and please enter yourself into the list if you like. As you use the database, I welcome your input and suggestions for how it can be improved or modified to suit users like yourself. Feel free to send me your feedback, comments and criticisms.

Thank you!

[CalicoIce]

Thats awesome thanks for the site info. If you guys need help with a site let me know thanks. I have server space available. For free.

[Russ McDonald]

To all of the L.A user group.

First and formost I want in.

ABOUT FEES

I was budgeting for my next feature, so I was looking to do this in 4k because of the need for integration for digital Efx. I searched high and low. The cost for a two camera shoot with the technologies currently available was over 9000.00 a day (based on a three day week with all the bells and whistles) and that doesn't include the full staff to shoot.

I will never tell anyone what to charge, but Zakaree your worth way more than that brother.

The revaluation is here, if the nearest alternative to our services is what I was quoted above. Than a 1000 dollors a day is crack whore money.

We at this stage don't really know what the true cost of the workflow is, data management, output, there's no spool of exposed negative or tape stock to cover your ass here. One bad drive and your screwed, as a producer your camera is 1/80th of my film's day cost. And if it screw's up guess who I'm coming after to pay for my re-shoot. If you can't pay for it I assure you, your camera is going home with me, and then-some.

Will Red be accepted by the feature film community? The answer is they don't have a choice. We will be providing super 35 results at a minimum of 60% of a conventional film budget. Not are we saving them big money. We are providing additional ancillary markets of distribution to the Producers, and Studios.

Someday 4k will be hanging on walls of living rooms all over the US, 4k players, the 4k network, and Netflicks4k.com. That future is as certain as the a setting Sun. The clients who use are services are in the position to exploit those emerging markets at vary minimal addition cost. Those of you who think I am a crazy man look no further than your own dvd collections.

We are providing a raw source that will make these people huge money. We should price accordingly, and they will pay. There is enough big hitters out there who want to use it, this isn't some 1080p piece of crap. My Grandma has that hanging on her wall for Christ sake. The point I'm trying to make here is this, work smart not hard.

I remember this story about two DP's sitting at starbucks, lets call them Chuck and Larry. Larrys bragging about how he's booked for twenty days this month at 300 a day. Chuck say's. "Wow that's great." His friend nods his head and asks. "How about you man, what your month look like" Chuck tells him the hard truth. "Only 5 days this month". Larry shakes his head "What are you charging a day?" Well I gave them a deal at 3000 a day." Who would you rather be a Chuck or Larry....

Remember we are not competing with the local cable company for Sam's house of bargains TV commercials, or ACME's widget training video. We can get 1080 and HDV for 300 a day for that.

I look forward to meeting and talking to all of you. Oh great and grad members of the most influential user group that this community will ever have.

Feel free to contact me personally with your point of view.

[Shane V8F]

Very well said, you are obviously someone that has many years working in this crazy business. I know, as you do, that if you have a product or skill the producers need on their production, they will always have the money to pay for it. It is not that I want to take advantage of a situation, I feel that the price should be set according to the demand. My fear is that with so many REDs on order the demand will be short lived. The only thing we can hope for is that RED owners will not shortchange themselves and the camera by giving it away just to get a job. If everyone charged a fair market price for their rentals the producers would have to pay the rate to use the camera.

I have seen it over and over again in the industry. Once there is an abundance of a product the price always drops. I understand that, I just hope we can keep the price up for as long as possible. I would hate to see guys renting their RED package out for what we pay to rent an SDX-900 or even an HVX-200. I see this as a real possibility in the next few years.

The Sony F-23 4K camera costs $250000 and has the same picture quality as the RED, I doubt any rental houses owning this camera will be giving any big breaks on the rental any time soon.

If RED owners keep the rental at a fair market value, the industry will respect the camera more and will not look at it as a toy. If you work in Hollywood you will know what I mean.

How many times have you done a job for top dollar and the producers respect you, and your day is usually a cake walk. On the other hand, how many times when you given a producer a large discount because they say they have no money, for a job, and you end up working twice as hard and the producers usually treat you like shit. This attitude goes for rentals as well. If the producers are paying top dollar for a product, the feel they are getting something special.

I don't want to "Price Fix" the RED camera rentals, but I would like owners to agree to a range that we agree to stay in.

If we created a network with the LA RED User group, and could bounce around RED jobs to one another this would keep the cameras working. I know people get greedy and want every job the can get, but with a little patience we could all come out ahead.

As RED owners we are put in a very special place, we own a piece of equipment that the producers really want to use. Trust me the producers will try every trick to con us into renting the gear as cheep as possible. Once the price drops, it will be almost impossible to get it back up again.

I know I am venting my frustrations, but I just feel very strongly that done right we could turn our RED investment into a very profitable business.

Thanks,

Shane
Video8film Productions

P.S. We should try to get a contact list together soon. REDs are going to ship any day, so we do not have much time to get organized.

[Russ McDonald]

Weather you agree with Shane or not, our group is going to set the tone for everybody else. There are allot of fish in this pond. What we do here will have ripple effects. I'm looking at a rental bid for an Arri 535 just the body is 1100 a day. The Viper is 1700 without a lens 1200 dollars for a field recorder and baby producers are lining up.

Take Gibby for example, the guy is making time available for everybody else to get a head start. he doesn't have to that. He is well within his right to be an LA asshole, but he's not. If you could get him and his rig for 2000 a day. You would kill yourself to get that deal. It's more than a piece of gear. I'm telling you we can get 2500 a day with an operator for 4k production. Every day of the week and twice on sunday.

You know maybe we should do what the free Masons did. No Price minimums. We just set a standard of quality production principles, that set us professionals apart from the bottom feeders. So when we say you get what you pay for it means something.



THIS IS A FEATURE FILM CAMERA, NOT YOUR UNGLE BUCKS CAMCORDER.

Look at it this way. When you shoot a Super35mm film, you put in the can just over an hour of footage a day. To process, Telecine, and sound sync for dailies. is a minimum of 2000 a day. We haven't even gotten to Datacine-ing for digital manipulation. You do that for a 28 day shoot that's a cool 56000 dollars. Plus you have a 24 hour turn around see what you've shot.

Hiring one of us at a 2500 a day, at a three day rate per week. Translates into the company getting at net savings of 26000 dollars, and you haven't even shot a frame yet. Not to mention the time savings.

Tell you what, let me negotiate all your feature deals I'll get you what your worth....

I'm sorry I don't mean to be heavy handed it was late as I was typing, it was Friday, and I was buzzed. No more drunk posting I promise

[Betsy Moore]

Shane wrote: "I don't want to "Price Fix" the RED camera rentals, but I would like owners to agree to a range that we agree to stay in." That's like saying "I don't want to date fat girls; but I only want to date girls over 400 pounds." Even if price fixing wasn't illegal and immoral, the hard fact is even though Adobeone shouts "THIS IS AFEATURE FILM CAMERA, NOT YOUR UNCLE BUCKS CAMCORDER" well my Apple computer with Final Cut is a feature film editing system and a fine one but it only cost me 6000 dollars to put together and I can't charge what they used to charge when non linear systems costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Technology moves on, the price of coffee goes up while the costs of microchips and digital cameras and hard drives etc. goes down, that's how it goes. And thank God for that by the way, I don't want to miss out on the next "Once" just because a cabal of camera owners got greedy and priced some gifted starving artist out of a fair deal. I'm all for commerce but when your ideas of commerce start to hurt the art, it's time to do everyone a favor and move into selling air conditioners in stead.

[Shane V8F]

I was working in the OC and thought I would pay the Red offices a visit. I've had some questions about my Red order that I wanted to talk to someone at Red about. My questions were mainly about what type of storage option should I order and how much. I am setting up a Red package to use for myself, and to also use as a rental unit.

I met with Brian over at Red, he was very kind to sit down with me for about an hour and go over all my options.

I told him I was on a budget, and what I planned to do with the Red. He made me a spread sheet with my costs, and was very helpful in explaining my options.

THANKS BRIAN, I am no longer confused.

I just wanted to say that things look a whole lot different when you sit down and do the numbers on the camera.

I got a quote from Brian that ended up being:
$27,000

I still need to buy the following for my package:
Lens', Matte-box, HD Monitor, Cables, Tripod, Cases, Mac Tower, and Redundant Storage.

This added equipment will send the price of the Red package up an additional:
$50,000 to $60,000 depending on what kind of deals I can make.

This my friends ends up making the Red package an $80,000 investment.

It puts it in the same class as the F-950 as far as price, not quality. I don't see O&O's of those packages giving them away for a few hundred dollars a day.

Because the Red has a different work flow than a traditional tape camera, the initial investment will be much steeper. I am tired of hearing how cheep the Red is. Yes it is a fantastic deal for the quality, but if you think you can spend $17,500 and get a working package you are very mistaken.

I would like to make a comment to Betsy. The reason they call it an Entertainment Business is because it is a "business". I love the craft of film making as much as the next guy, but I also understand we work in an industry that tries to make a profit. If you can find someone to give me the $80 thousand for my Red as a donation, I would be more than happy to help out student filmmakers, and independents. If I am spending that kind of money on a "business" investment, I have to try and make a return on my expenditures.

What if a CEO of a car rental company told his stockholders that he was going to rent their cars at a loss just because he wanted to help out people who could not afford to buy a car. What do you think would happen to the stock, and the company.

I think I will take a wait and watch stance in regards to the Red rental market. I have a couple of months left till I get mine. I have a gut feeling that LA is going to be quickly saturated with Red cameras. When this happens, as with all products, when the supply becomes greater then the demand. the rental prices will fall.

As O&O's we will have only a short time to recoup our investments. I have no idea how short it will be, but think about this. The Red is basically a very advanced piece of technology, and with all technology their will always be a competitor that comes out with a simular product, that works better and is less expensive. Lets just hope it is not like computers where every 6 months a new better piece of equipment comes out, on average.

[bradvr]

In the coming months I wanted to put together an acting reel, something a little out of the ordinary. If anyone wanted to help me make it by contributing lighting equipment, black screens for a backdrop, boom mics, etc. I would be most appreciative, along with allowing you to use my RED camera in future projects free of charge.

-Vincent

Vincent - We have all of the gear you requested including editing if needed. If we can help drop me a line. We are RED reservation holders 15 & 16, but can always use extra cameras :biggrin:

Brad

[Rodney Recor]

Hello, Gang.

I still like Zack's idea for a "Breakfast Club". I suggest once a month.

How about September's breakfast on Friday morning, September 21, 8am?
I have the resources to get the info about it onto the web. I'll post meeting dates, times, locations, and resulting notes about it on the DCGA website.
( wwww.rodneyrecor.com/RED/DCGA )

If you're interested, please rsvp to say you're coming and suggest a place.
rodney@dixiemedia.com

[Gianny Trutmann]

Great Idea I'am in just let me know the date and location

[Russ McDonald]

Do you guys want to do this on a weekday or weekend. I will take on the responsibility for the planning. Please PM if you want to come, with your name, address, phone, and personnel emails.

[Rodney Recor]

OK, Adobeone.

The planning and organizing is all yours. Tuto and myself are in so far.

Any day is OK with me. Just tell me when and where, and I'll be there. Set the date and time and keep me up to date with what you work out, and I'll post it on the DCGA website as I said. ( www.rodneyrecor.com/RED/DCGA )

I'll email you separately with my and Tuto's email address.

[Russ McDonald]

How is the Sat. the 29th

Any suggestion on what you guys would like to take away from the get together.

[itzawrap]

I saw a thread several days ago about Red owners in LA getting together to establish some sort of quality level structure for pricing out the Red for rental. I have not been able to find the thread again, but would like to talk with interested individuals. It would be great to have a list of owners in Los Angeles and other areas to be able to bounce work off of.

One of my companies deals with remote camera cranes. It used to be a great business, but because of the relative cheap price of the cranes, the market was flooded with them. We use to get an established rental rate for the gear, but so many people have multiple crane arms that they basically give them to the producers for less and less. It is very hard to compete with these individuals that have several arms.

This hurts the whole industry. I don't want to see this happen to the Red camera rentals. Because of the relative cheap price of the camera there is going to be several companies that have several cameras. They will be forced to rent them out for less than rate card just to keep them working all the time.

This is going to happen unless we can create some sort of agreement with Red owners to keep the price fixed at a certain rate. This doesn't mean you can't help out a shoot in need, but the deal needs to make sense.

We tried to do this with the cranes but people didn't listen. Now the rental market is run by a few large companies, and the rest get to pick up the leftovers.

I HOPE THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN WITH THE RED!

You have been warned!

I would like to join other Red users in Los Angeles to try and keep the Red value as high as possible for as long as possible.

Maybe if we set up a referral system that would work like this it may keep the quality high:

1. Data base of owners in the area. and posted schedules
2. Base low limit price, with exceptions. Members of this referal site agree to not rent gear out for less then a certain price unless approved by X amount of users of the site.
3. A Referral commission will be paid to the other Red owner passing the job along.
4. A small fee to keep name on the referral site. This fee would be to pay for the website, and keep it updated.

Just a thought, but one that should be considered.

V8F

P.S. Does anyone know how many Red's are reserved for the Southern California area?
V8F,

Your post about rental rates makes a lot of sense. This problem is always what happens when the market gets "saturated" with an item that becomes a commodity.

We experienced this with Beta SP in the early 90's in Chicago. First off there were not a ton of rental packages around in the late 80's, so my partner and I bought a nice package with the right bells to make nice looking Beta SP, not just run and gun ENG stuff, but special videography for high end clients. We were able to charge a fair rate, pay off our notes, pay for upkeep and additional items for the package. We always took it out ourselves and shot for our clients. It was not a general rental item. We did not want to be a "rental" company but a company providing DP/OP and gear together as a package.

Within a few years, but after we'd been paid for, more and more people bought gear and flooded the market. Fortunately for us, we were able to compete with lower rental rates becasue we were paid off. So all the whores out there could rent for cheaper and cheaper and we just kept up by lowering our rates accordingly.

I hate playing that game. I believe we have to teach the client what the difference between "price" and "value" are. Price is what they pay, value is what they get. Our job as professionals is give them high value at a fair price and that price should be in line with the value.

Too many look only at the bottom line and granted out here in LA there are plenty of resources from which to choose so with that said I'm willing to explore your ideas and see what can be done toward the goal of creating a community of owners or owner/operators who can raise the standard of quality and establish a fair workable rate structure for the new camera system.

Feel free to email me with your thoughts.

Cheers!

[david farland]

Any suggestion on what you guys would like to take away from the get together.

You mean besides an extra stamp on a starbuck coffee card and cheque stub which reads: Adobeone - $1000!

[dino g]

i hate to break this to you, and i have said this in one other area of this board, as a trained economist, turned producer, now a proud red owner, i do not want to rain on your parade, but some have suggested that we engage in a price fixing scheme. under current anti-trust laws (which are from the early 20th century and not well enforced at this time (read business friendly republicans)), this type of activity could get those individuals involved in the conversation put into a small 6 x 6 room with a toilet and a small stinky bed. i strongly suggest (again based on being forced to read volumes of case studies on the sherman act, the per-se doctorine, clayton act, robinson-patman act, blah blah blah [check http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Jan/1/241454.html if you want to read up] to refrain from this type of discussion and move on to talking about making our bodies and gear available to eachother when we have a shoot that requires multiple bodies.

having said all of that, i picked up my camera today and i am in love. but we are willing to allow very qualified individuals to rent it and or other red owners to sub-rent it, again, to qualified individuals whom are in need of a second package.

[Rodney Recor]

I have followed the discussion here about prices and value with regard to your rental and use rates for your new REDs. So far, I have stayed out of that conversation. Price-fixing in any way is, as has been mentioned repeatedly, not allowed. I have these "two cents" to offer on the subject, for what it's worth.

I started my own Hollywood career 41 years ago. I started as a DP. I loved film. I still do. At the time I came to Hollywood, film was the only moving picture medium available and there were only three Film Schools on the planet. During my early career, I had my own 16mm equipment, and I got a lot of work because of that. Sometime I made a lot of money, and sometimes I didn't. I don't think it had anything to do with my camera. Although my heart is still very fond of using a film camera, I became a producer circa 1980 and have been one almost exclusively since then. I have produced film and video projects, witnessing and appreciating the differences, values and tech advances in both media over the years. Now there is digital, and I am very excited to use it.

There are "good" producers and there are "bad" producers. We all certainly know well that many of us want only to spend as little money as possible to make a show. I personally, pride myself in being a "good" producer. I define that as believing that everyone should receive a fair day's pay for an outstanding day's work. When I produce a picture, either union or non-union, I pay union minimum wages to everyone in the unit. I accept the union agreements to be the "fair" determination of a solid day's pay. I pay for people, not equipment. I shall always pay only whatever I must to get the equipment that I need.

I am very enthusiastic about producing my next project using the RED. I will want to get it for the lowest price. If you are a RED owner, and your RED only comes with you attached to it as DP. then you had better impress me as being the DP that I want. Only then, will I consider paying whatever your equipment rental demands may be. Otherwise, I'll find the lowest price for the RED. That's economics. That's called competition. It's the truth.

I like to work with friends. But, I do not hire friends who are not also oustanding in their craft. I am not at all concerned about how many RED cameras "flood" the market, and I recommend that you boys and girls not be concerned with that either, but only with how many outstanding, excellent, artistic, friendly, knowledgeable, outgoing, easy-to-work-with, terrific, creative, concerned-about-detail, perfectionst and remarkable DPs, editors, and other craftspersons "flood" the market. That's the market that I shall be shopping in.

In conclusion, I want to say to all of my new Red owner friends that, I wish you all make good earnings with your REDs, but I hope that you all bought them because they are a fantastic new camera that will change EVERYTHING, and because you WANT them.

kindest regards,
Rodney

[Rodney Recor]

How is the Sat. the 29th

Any suggestion on what you guys would like to take away from the get together.

All I really want to have after our meeting is a few new friends that are excitind to work together using the RED. I want to come away from breakfast just remembering the ideas that everyone has about digital.

Rodney

[Russ McDonald]

This rental discussion has been covered to the nth degree on the "what would you rent it for thread" (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3719) Great information there.

But as Dave has pointed out this thread is now, really all about my needs....

I'm kidding, I would like do a little more than just have breakfast, but that needs more people than just me, Zack, Rodney, and Tuto.

[CalicoIce]

Any meet up dates I'm new to L.A?

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I ordered a second RED body today, so hopefully this thing will rent well ;)

[Steven Parker]

I'm kidding, I would like do a little more than just have breakfast, but that needs more people than just me, Zack, Rodney, and Tuto.

Count me in - when & where?

[Shane V8F]

I would very much like to get together soon. The Reds are out and now is the time to network with each other and bounce work back and forth.
Let me know when and where

[Russ McDonald]

Saturday the 29th of september

Please PM with your contact info.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

La? Oc?

[Russ McDonald]

I'm trying to do more than just breakfast, so no location has been picked yet I'm leaning towards LA. I'm thinking about a 3 to 4 hour event.

I need input, When I put stuff together I tend to go big, there may even be gift bags you would have to declare to the IRS. So I look forward to your suggestions.

[Shane V8F]

It would be great to have a RED 1 on hand and a FCP system so we could look at the work flow. Anyone with a RED want to bring it?

[Sam Druckerman]

Hmmm, the 29th?

I hope to get #81 on the 28th.....

I'd like to come, but I might be busy that day!

[red31]

I would love to come but i will be out of the state.

but, any LA based Professional whom is on a Working Set/Stage/Location with a Professional Crew, let me know with a PM and i'll come by the set and give you a taste of red31.

[Russ McDonald]

Hello my friends, things a shaping up nicely I have to push the date, but believe me you'll be glad. More on Thursday......

Help request:

Need a good hot meal truck, they have to make kick ass food. All you pros if you had a great movie set breakfast I want the guys number, PM me.

"Why do we need such a truck Adobeone?" you're saying to yourself. It's a surprise.

[bradvr]

If you push the date then I can be there! Yippee. More importantly, if you push the date then we can offer our facilities to all. We have plenty of space, tech stuff, camera support and yes, if one our Red's are not on a job I will set one up. We also have FCP here for workflow review. BH

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/3760_1189816827.jpg
June workshop at our Orange County facility with Red and Apple.

[Russ McDonald]

Guys and ladies I need to know how many people want to come, I got like seven people. So I need you to PM me if you want to attend. So I can make it work.

[Brook Willard]

I should be able to go...

[Neil Duffy]

I'd like to go...

[John Tissavary]

I'll come, most likely with my wife and my biz partner.

cheers,

jt

[Gianny Trutmann]

Do are we in for Thursday, 27, what time? and where

[Neil Duffy]

What time and place is the LA users group RED meeting breakfast at? I live in Santa Monica.

[Russ McDonald]

The date has been pushed because of cool stuff is in the works, thursday I will let everyone know.

[Neil Duffy]

When are we going to have the LA REDuser meeting? Would anyone want to organize one with me? We could do it at the Santa Monica public library - get a large conference room? Sometime in October.

[Michael Grugal]

Is the LA Red User meeting today?

[Russ McDonald]

I'm sorry my friends but I had to take the gig that came my way, I can not do the LA user group breakfast on the 13th of October. I can do it on the Sat the 27 of October. If some one else wants to take the lead and organized sooner get together Please PM me.

[CalicoIce]

Hey guys I know this guy in Beverly hills has a nice office in the 1901 building off of avenue of the starts maybe we can host something there? Let me know if interested and I will pitch it to him. But we need a red camera there? I believe 2oth century foxs office is in that building too.

[Neil Duffy]

Is there still a LA RED USERS group meeting this month?

[david farland]

The date has been pushed because of cool stuff is in the works, thursday I will let everyone know.

what's the cool gig were you had to let down the founding fathers?

I've still got this image of you hopping back fences with a pillow case full of handy cams.

spill........parole denied?


Cheers,
Dave,

[CalicoIce]

Anyone shooting or anything going on. I want to see one of these babies in action?

[Greg David]

The house is just under the Hollywood sign so should not be too difficult to find for anyone. I don't have an open floorplan so the house is not ideal for very large groups but I do have one large room that would comfortably fit around 20 seated people plus a speaker. If we used the back of the house and the patio we could fit around 30 people.(I would need someone to provide some chairs) And of course if all the people did not have to be in one area then we I would think 40 - 50 would be cool.

Parking would not be a challenge if most of the cars were full. Perhaps some people could park down the street and get rides from other guests.

My camera is not here for 2 more months so someone else is going to have to provide that detail :)

[Häakon]

I can't believe I hadn't seen this thread earlier... there are just way too many topics on this site!

I would, of course, love to attend as well, and if the stars are in alignment I'll have my camera next Friday. I'm more than happy to bring any additional gear or accessories that anyone may find helpful.

[Neil Duffy]

Are we still having a LA user group meeting this month?

Neil

[RED,BLUE&GREEN]

SHANE:

I won't worry about a price just yet. Being almost 1200 on the list means the you long way away from the rental biz. By the time you take delevery of your camera... the large chip Panasonic and the preview of the Sony will be out..which will affect pricing. Probably around $700 for 32,000 dollar camera...before lens. Thats what the rental houses will charge. Simms should take delevery before you ...so look to them for a rental ballpark.

Once we get a Red up and running...( ie most of the bugs out..software working...) Then expect delevery. Like you.... Im glad im not one of the first hundred or so prototype cameras!!!

Things worth waiting for take a long, long time.

[Russ McDonald]

what's the cool gig were you had to let down the founding fathers?

I've still got this image of you hopping back fences with a pillow case full of handy cams.

spill........parole denied?


Cheers,
Dave,

So I come back to find this... The first question I have is. How did he know...? I gaffer taped the handy cams together, so they wouldn't make noise...

Plus I'm getting PM "What about the LA users breakfast...."

Well here are some answers.

First.
After my successful Handy Cam crime spree... I had to take a consulting gig, the mortgage was due... That gig created an opportunity that led me to someone.

I had been after this person for some time. I just couldn't get through the door. I wanted this person as a Co-creator for a TV series, I'd been in development of for a while... That door opened and I ran through it. So I've been writing like a madman... As things get more concrete. I will let you guys know first.

As of this moment, it will be shot exclusively Red. I will be shooting the pilot in 4k. The episodes will be in 2k so all of you Directors out there will be able to over-crank. I don't want to put camera limits, when I hire one of you.

La User's Breakfast.
I let every one know that because I had to take a consulting gig. That I couldn't put the thing together until after that. If anyone else wanted to do it sooner let me know. I will help as much as I can... (pra-phrasing the post)

I would love to do one but you guys need to do some communicating. I asked for some help... Shane the man stood up and hooked us up with a way to do the breakfast part. Had a good lead on FCP demos from you guys too, but that was it. I had a total of 7 RSVP's.

I talked to Panavision about hosting the event, It looked like they were going to step up. They had some valid concerns, and wanted reasonable assurances from us. I could not give them what they needed, timing of the event was a big one. It just fell through.

Panavision was fantastic throughout the whole thing. I started at the top, and when it was clear that is wasn't going to happen. I got the call from the top. Not some assistant. So I expect them to be treated fairly on this issue.
They have been a class act, and have not close the door to us in the future.

This is what I think we should do.

I am busy. So i need big time help

We need a location.

It needs to be able to accommodate a hot meal catering truck, and tables.

We need a place that we could screen some 35mm transfer from the stuff that has already been done and posted here. "I Know some guys"

I would like to get somebody from apple.

The guys from Scratch will step up and bring in a demo, and answer questions. We just need a suitable place.

The above was what I was going to do. If we can make it happen great.
I can help. If you want something smaller I'll be there. I'm just slammed.

Cheers.

[Shane V8F]

OK so I had my first shoot with the Red Camera, and after some lens control issues, non the fault of Red, we had a marvelous shoot. The Red was mounted to a camera Jib that was mounted to a Shotmaker camera truck. The camera performed flawlessly and the pictures were incredible.

I worked with some of the Red Ninja guys, and they were great. I hope they will send me some footage soon.

I am sure jazzed and can't wait till I get my own camera.

I am looking forward to getting together with all of the local LA guys. I had some good chats with the Red Ninjas and they have the same ambitions as I do to keep the quality of the Red camera up high, and to deliver a great service to producers in the motion picture industry. We should all keep this in mind when we get our Reds.

Thanks,

Shane
V8F Productions

[Neil Duffy]

So...is there going to be a meeting? How can I help get this meeting off the ground? PM me.

[HamillianActor]

So I've just reserved my body and basic production pack and I'll be moving to the LA area next month. Surely I won't have my Red for a long, long while, but I'd still love to meet fellow users and learn everything I can before I get mine.

[juan]

Hello Abu,

My name is Juan Elgueta, im writing from Chile and i have a small production company. I'm looking to buy a red camera, but first or meanwhile, due to my location in the world, i would like to have the oportunity to participate only as a viewer or assistant in some shootings with the red so i can get and understanding and know how of the camera and it's processes. Also at a level of post production, downloading material etc. I have work with digital cameras and film cameras for the last 10 years. I can work almost in every field of the business, and i'm willing to do it for free just to have teh chance to get close to a red camera before I buy it or menawhile i wait it's delivery.
I know this has nothing to do with your statement but I don't have many choices and the online course doesn't convince me. If you can help me, i would really apreciate and who knows maybe later, I could be a helping hand for you. I studdy film in new york and my english is very good.
Thanks in advance ,

Juan Elgueta
juan@resolucion.cl

[Dan McCain]

Any meetings this month? I would like to join this group.

[Shane V8F]

The LA user group has not been very active, and I believe this needs to change. RED is now delivering up to 500 cameras this month, and the number will continue to grow very rapidly now that the RED is coming out of its Beta form. I believe that LA will be the most saturated market for the RED, and if we are to keep the RED camera a respectable piece of rental gear we need to get together and create some standards as far as camera package, price, and service. I have my RED now and have know idea were to price the package for rent.

The Entertainment Industry needs to see RED as a better quality alternative to what they are using now. Not just a cheep piece of gear that non professionals have bought and are looking to score a quick buck. This will not happen if we don't start talking to one another. At this point it has already become a free for all, there are already owners out there putting their packages out for incredibly low rates, and without any supervision. We live in a free market society and they are free to do that, but after waiting so long for my RED, I would really like to see the RED market keep a high a standard for as long as it can. Come on people, there is a huge demand for the RED at this time, so I do not see why we are so eager to give crazy low rental rates just to be the guy to take the job away from everyone else. I have been in this town long enough to know that being known as "that guy" doesn't always get you very far. It may work for awhile, but the big players on the studio projects will never respect you. They will think your gear is "CRAP."

Lets try to get as many LA guys and gals that own the RED together, and start an open dialogue with one another that can help us establish a package and rate that will be agreeable as a starting point. I am not saying you can't negotiate a lower or higher rate on a project per project bases. I just would like to have some kind of established starting point.

"NO I AM NOT TRYING TO PRICE FIX ANYTHING", so please stop accusing me of that. I just want to keep a standard as high as possible for as long as I can for a piece of gear I spent a lot of money for.

Lets try to come up with a starting price point for a very basic RED package:

RED body
RED Basic Production pack
4 RED Batteries and Charger
RED AC Power supply

All other equipment should be priced as a piece by piece line item.

I know that there will be different rental rates for the RED around the world. Some will be lower and some will be higher depending where you live. I have already found this to be true with my searches on the internet. Southern California rates from different companies look to be all over the place.

Its time to start talking with one another about these issues.

What do you guys think about this proposal in the Los Angeles area?

Thanks,

Shane
Video8film Productions

[Dan McCain]

I would like to attend meetings simply to meet and network with other red owners, for collaborations, referrals etc. Who was responsible for setting this up and did any meetings ever take place?

[Shane V8F]

As far as I know no meeting have taken place yet. It is very difficult to organize a get together. Because the cameras a shipping much faster now, we really should try to get together and introduce ourselves, and try to work together and make this a good experience.

Shane

[Ralph Wong]

I agree that there should be the largest concentration of RED cameras in the Los Angeles area. However, I have not heard of a single meeting or get together with people who actually own it around here. What gives? I already received a confirmation email from RED saying I need to pay soon. I would definitely like to see the camera in some sort of operation before I actually pay the full balance of $17,500. Is there anything that will happen soon?

[MikeHedge]

EVS in Burbank might want to host a get together... that would be neat... keep me posted...

[BigLu]

I don't see price fixing, I see the potential of someone or small location degrading the value of the camera in their rental rates. Dropping their rates so low it is unreal and devalues the cameras rental prices across the board.
So for someone to have the courage to speak up and begin a conversation on how can we come up with a way to possibly keep the value closer to a similar like camera rather than let things get to low...
.
Well im for it, understand it, and support it.

Thank you for bringing up the topic before someone rents the camera for something hurtful like lets say $200.00 per day.
which can only hurt the entire RED movement.

please don't cheapen the camera.
Don't get me wrong, im not saying price fix im saying can this be done in a supportive way?

If it can what are some positive steps?

[bryanheath]

The Red camera is going to establish its own average rental price depending on the geographic market. Just like all gear there will be people trying to get a premium and not renting their gear out much and those that lowball and drive prices down. There is nothing you can do to change market forces.

[Shane V8F]

The Red camera is going to establish its own average rental price depending on the geographic market. Just like all gear there will be people trying to get a premium and not renting their gear out much and those that lowball and drive prices down. There is nothing you can do to change market forces.


What we can do is offer a better service and experience for the price of the rental. I for one know that on quality projects production is not going to want to mess around with a RED owner that does not have a track record.

The RED camera package is by no means the cheep camera everyone thought it was. By the time it is all said and done, you will have an investment similar to an F900. You will have a much better camera and more accessories for the price though.

I agree that the market will determine the value of the camera, and the O&O will be an added value to the kit. If he / she has a good package and knows their stuff, it will justify a hire rate for the RED.

Lets just hope the amount of experts out weigh the hobbyists, when it comes to RED O&O's.

Shane

[juan]

Hello , My name is Juan Elgueta and I have a production company called imaginachile.com. I`m writing this message cause I bought a red camera a few months ago and I´m looking to have the chance of attending some shooting with the red camera in California. Just to gain some expertise and to start learning before I recieve the camera. I have work on sets before and I can be as invicible as you want me to be and also a helping hand if it`s rbe a requiered. I`m not looking for a job or get paid , but i could be a second camera assistant anytime. So i ask any owner of red camera that can give me a hand, to do so. I have the idea of going to California on september , so please if any red ownwer has a shooting schedule during september I would really apreciate if you let me know. Beside I can be a really good contact for you in Chile, a country with cheap production values and landscape you only get to see in a movie.
Hoping to hear from somebody soon,

Juan Elgueta
juan@parafina.cl
569 5325220
562 7934523-3348589
www.imaginachile.com

[Igor Ridanovic]

Hola Juan,

I'd encourage you to attend one of our monthly RED User Group Los Angeles meetings. Watch this section of the forum for the August meeting announcement. You can PM me if you'd like me to add your email to the mailing list.

[BigLu]

Hey Juan im shooting a commercial and 2 music videos this month.
You are welcome to come by if your in town.

Ive emailed you.

good luck

[Bmoreshaun]

Hey guys,
I'm helping sponcer the Elevate Film Festival in Los Angeles this year. It'll be a star studded event in front of 7000 people at the Nokia Theatre(used to be at the Kodak, but this year has out grown the venue). I have sent them a basic RED Package to shoot 4 of the 20 films being shown there this year. They have the equipment and have the first shoot planned for this Thursday, but they still need a technician. Just someone who knows the RED enough to help them through 1 or as many of the shoots you can be available for. They can offer great advertising campaign for your company for donation of time. (Add in the program, link from their website www.elevateexperience.com and your company logo on every film you help with on the big screen in front of 7000 people, many of them being industry professionals. Plus some public praise). Please e-mail me or call if you can help. Thanks

Shaun-

Shaun Crawford-
crawfordmultimedia@mac.com
310-295-2RED
540-660-4252

[Meltzer17]

Noah,

I think you are missing the point a bit. The Los Angeles market, specifically, is over-saturated. There are people who have equipment who are really good at what they do. There are people that own equipment because they think it will get them work. I do not know which category you fall into. The point is that if you undervalue your product you make it harder for everyone else. It becomes a race to the bottom. Then you are renting your $50K-100K camera package for $300 a day. That is not a good investment. They don't call it show business for nothing. It's mostly about money and then a little bit about art. If you just have tons of cash and don't care that is a whole other issue. At some point the RED will be THE CAMERA to shoot and if you treat it that way eventually people will come around. It's quantum physics. I hope this doesn't come off to negative, but I have seen this way to much. Don't undervalue yourself or your gear. It's you working against your best interests!

[RollrCoastr]

Hello all!

I hope i'm in the right thread for this.

I have a question regarding the fees for permits and insurance for filming outdoors in Los Angeles.

Does any of you have somewhat of an indication on what it would cost for a day to get a permit and to get it insured?

Can you use this insurance on multiple locations on one day?

Pardon the ignorance, but i'm from Europe :)
Thanks in advance!

[Igor Ridanovic]

Hello all!

I hope i'm in the right thread for this.

I have a question regarding the fees for permits and insurance for filming outdoors in Los Angeles.

Does any of you have somewhat of an indication on what it would cost for a day to get a permit and to get it insured?

Can you use this insurance on multiple locations on one day?

Pardon the ignorance, but i'm from Europe :)
Thanks in advance!


The wrong thread but... here: http://www.eidc.com/

[Shane V8F]

Noah,

I think you are missing the point a bit. The Los Angeles market, specifically, is over-saturated. There are people who have equipment who are really good at what they do. There are people that own equipment because they think it will get them work. I do not know which category you fall into. The point is that if you undervalue your product you make it harder for everyone else. It becomes a race to the bottom. Then you are renting your $50K-100K camera package for $300 a day. That is not a good investment. They don't call it show business for nothing. It's mostly about money and then a little bit about art. If you just have tons of cash and don't care that is a whole other issue. At some point the RED will be THE CAMERA to shoot and if you treat it that way eventually people will come around. It's quantum physics. I hope this doesn't come off to negative, but I have seen this way to much. Don't undervalue yourself or your gear. It's you working against your best interests!

I totally agree, I believe the tides may be changing with the way the industry sees the RED 1. There seams to be a shift toward higher end work on the RED. It is a shame so many owners undervalued their investment, I believe there will be a whole lot of abused cameras out there shortly, and the ones that fought to keep rates up, may have not rented out there gear as much, but I bet the gear is in way better shape.

Lets hope that the new year brings higher profile projects to the ones that know what their gear is worth.