Any word on the New Epic Option?

[Elsie N]

Quote:
EPIC... new option.
We will announce a new option for EPIC in the next few days.

Jim.

Any news about this? I could be doing other things than hanging out on REDuser waiting for the news to drop.

[Ivan Kovax]

Suspense. It is a wonderful thing, don't you think?

:)

[David Lagos]

I find myself checking back here every few hours to check if the news has dropped. It's good to know there's an entire gaggle of people anxiously waiting as well.

[Sven Seynaeve]

Please Jim, let us know what it will be.....

[Ivan Kovax]

I would seriously ROFLMAO if Jim simply posted, "...psych"

[Antonio Forjaz]

no news yet....

[sandro-bachmann]

I find myself checking back here every few hours to check if the news has dropped.

thats the reason, why jim is doing this, its called marketing :blush5:

[Frank Cueto]

Bah, announcing that they will soon announce something else is such a TEASE.

So its an announcement about a announcement that has no date even.

That said, man, I am sooo excited!!! I feel like a TEEN about to go on a date with a HOT girl for the first time.....

[Felix K.]

Actually, this sort of "hype" doesn't really get me anymore...

[Jim Retar]

A few RED days = A human month

Come on.... you should all know that by now!

[Peter Moretti]

A few RED days = A human month

Come on.... you should all know that by now!LOL! And two few RED days = a dog year.

[Graham_C]

thats the reason, why jim is doing this, its called marketing :blush5:


Is it really just marketing?..i`m not saying there`s not an element of that but i also wonder if it isn`t just Jim`s enthuisiasm bubbling over?

[Michael Hastings]

Is it really just marketing?..i`m not saying there`s not an element of that but i also wonder if it isn`t just Jim`s enthuisiasm bubbling over?

Kool-aid anyone? :)

Yes, it's marketing. And probably still smart and appropriate.

But it wears on you, too.

"C'mon people. Throw me a frickin' bone here ... Need the info... "

...

Oh and.BTW I'm introing a line of sharks with laser beams early next year.... :)

[Jay A. Kelley]

I'm with Michael on this one. I actually am trying to cut down on the amount of time I am here since all I want really is a release schedule, new about the stock issues, and the final pricing on Stage 2 upgrades to SSD drives.

So... I'm just waiting.. Cause I have no choice.

Jay

[Filip Orlandic]

The biggest news were always released around 9pm PST :)

[albert rudnicki]

I think Jim should not be permitted to post here anymore;)
causes deep scars...

[Shane Betts]

Jim Jannard - BANNED. Yeah, I don't think so.

Of course this is marketing hype but I fully believe that it's also generated by Jim's enthusiasm. Look at his multiple threads about RCX 351. The guy is having as much trouble containing himself as we are.

So, yeah, it both sucks and blows. Constantly reading these forums for news. But we do - as do the detractors and whingers - because we know something enormous is about to break (talking about Epic in general). Red will, of course, send out emails to all of those of us with a place in the line but resisting the call is impossible.

[David Lagos]

With how Jim has come through in the past with massive news that most of the time turns our intentions with Red products on their heads, I'll wait for the news to come out when its ready.

But to tell the truth, we've been spoiled. With what other company on any other occassion have we recieved news or even the announcement of news straight from the top?

Personally, I interpret having time between the tease and the actual news come out as a reflection of the excitement Jim has about his work. Meaning the dude has put in enough time and effort to not be able to resist sharing the good news, even if it'll take a while to fine tune any changes. In a sense, his excitement and his commitment to try and keep us as in the loop as he can is relatable to how excited an anxious we are to hear it.

In some wierd way, that makes Jim just another one of us, excited about what Red is doing and what the future holds.

[michael zaletel]

I'll tell you what...

If RED wanted to build a massive double-opt-in SMS marketing list, they could do it in about 2 days by promising to text message the EPIC and SCARLET news via SMS 1-hour prior to posting it on REDUSER.net. I know I would give up my cell phone number and permission.

If they want to be really progressive, they would register RedUser names to cell phone numbers and accept thread posts via SMS reply to the Recon SMS alerts.

-michael zaletel

[Jannard]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim

[Jesper Sichlau]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line.

Congratulations! :hurray:

[Martin Weiss]

Any update on how the production line is coming?

[Steve Das]

...While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this...

Seems like any time there is an exception or backstory involved in
a product...those become very valued and historical items as they
are set apart from all the others that follow. So think quite
a few might take up this new Epic offer.

[Jay A. Kelley]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim

I cannot speak for everyone, but I think the answer to this will be preceded by a question: How long until the line is set up and production units follow?

If you are talking 7-8 weeks Then I think (For most) the additional money would be hard to justify. But if you are saying longer (Such as delivery around NAB), then more people would take an interest in this.

Some will do it no matter what cause they have cash to burn. But most will need to know a rough release schedule in order to see if the gap between the hand built and "regular" production cameras justifies the cost.

My 2 cents

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

One more thing:

It's not just the camera... There is not status on anything else. What will come with this hand unit?
Monitor?
Are the REDMotes ready?
Mounting options? What lens mounts are ready?

In other words, what will come with the "hand built" units?

I dunno Jim.. The more I think about this... The more red flags it brings up.

This is such a complicated release, and there's so much I/we do not know. I think the better track right now is to stay with your origional plan. Release when ready. All of it (Well, not ALL of it, but you know what I mean)

Jay

[Mick van Rossum, NSC]

Assuming that it is a working camera (including modules etcetera) I think I'd pay a premium, but ofcourse it is important to know when would these "handreds" would be available; if these ship let's say in 2 months and the production line starts in 5 months I am pretty sure there are a lot of people with enough cash to invest since they know these handreds will be renting out like crazy in the first months with so few available. So basically rental houses would invest in these I guess.

Jim, I know and it is smart not to release shipping dates, but could you give us an estimate how much time at least it will take to set up a production line ? Otherwise, could you tell us "epics will for sure not ship before...."

anyway, it is very thoughtfull to think about options like these for costumers... My guess is that stage 2,3 etc will still apply ?

cheers

[Jeff Coatney]

My guess is 90 days till cameras roll off the line in quantity. Could be less, depending on how soon the process started.

[Elsie N]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.


Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim
I won't be buying one of the cameras, but I think it is a good idea to make and sell them to those who can. The more they are used, the more you learn and that can only help all of us in the long run.

Happy with this news... it gives me an idea where things are at present and helps me to know where to aim on my own "just-in-time" financial production line.

EDIT: I hope this would mean that a camera number is marked "executed" when someone opts for the hand-made camera. That means there would one less camera ahead of me on the production line. (I knew I could find a self-serving reason for supporting this idea if I thought hard enough!)

[Curran Giddens]

There would be no trade in allowance.


So this would be completely separate from our Stage 2 camera packages? I am thinking about it. Just hope it isn't too much more than $28k for the Brain.

[Curran Giddens]

EDIT: I hope this would mean that a camera number is marked "executed" when someone opts for the hand-made camera.

Noooooo!

[Elsie N]

Noooooo!
Heh, heh... Curran... Seriously? You would actually want 3 cameras!?

[Curran Giddens]

Heh, heh... Curran... Seriously? You would actually want 3 cameras!?

Actually, I would have to sell one. But the profit from it would help with the additional cost of the hand-built Epic.

[Elsie N]

Actually, I would have to sell one. But the profit from it would help with the additional cost of the hand-built Epic.
Privateer!!!! :ohmy: Camera Runner! (He blustered in mock disgust)
No camera hoarding... please!

[Gareth Gerrard]

Jim, how about hand-building the Scarlet's... Little less to do ;-)!!

Or you could do a RED workshop where customers fly over and hand-build there own cameras! I'd be well up for that... Love to get my hands dirty!

[Curran Giddens]

No camera hoarding... please!

Look at it as a completely separate line of cameras. And they would only be building them while waiting for the real production line to be stocked up with parts.

[Elsie N]

Look at it as a completely separate line of cameras. And they would only be building them while waiting for the real production line to be stocked up with parts.
Heh, heh, nice justification. But I think we should leave this in the hands of the rest of the Great Unwashed. Someone needs to do a poll. Maybe a simple one asking if (in theory) we are for or against the idea of releasing hand made cameras to those willing to pay the price. Then when the price of such a camera is revealed, another poll asking who will or will not participate. I would do such a poll but I can't find the poll button.

[JanneJansson]

Totally off topic. Here is a version of jim's avatar, with transparent bg.
http://sfe.se/jim-avatar.png

/Janne

[Jeremy Torrie]

We would do it -no question.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim

Depends how fast and how much. But I am 1000% interested in more cameras at a premium, specifically due to interest and demand for 3D.

I think what matters the most to make such a decision is having the "latest best guess" at when STAGE 2 will roll, etc. -

But ... yeah ... you are going to get a BUNCH of folks who will pay $$ to get them faster -

[Jim Retar]

pre-release Fixed Scarlet please.... money is ready and burning a hole!

[sandro-bachmann]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim

So is that the EPIC news, we were waiting for? thats it? :aureola:

[Greg M]

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim

Please start hand building #83:emote_happyhappy:

[Tony Lorentzen]

Are we talking about the option of buying a pre-ordered EPIC or buying totally off-queue? Meaning $28K + premium? So if I had the cash to buy one of these hand-built EPICs now - would I still be able to go Stage 2 later?

[KETCH ROSSi]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim


Depends how fast and how much. But I am 1000% interested in more cameras at a premium, specifically due to interest and demand for 3D.

I think what matters the most to make such a decision is having the "latest best guess" at when STAGE 2 will roll, etc. -

But ... yeah ... you are going to get a BUNCH of folks who will pay $$ to get them faster -


What Mark said Jim,

I will seriously consider this, especially so it could allow me to go back to Italy
with Epic-X in my hands, not that I'm not happy taking the Red One MX,
but you know what I mean ;)

Look forward to hear more!!


EDIT:


It seems that so much gets taken out of context so I'll put in my 2cents..


A) This is likely to be a similar deal to what was originally to be the TATTOO program, just that now will
be expended to more STAGE II original reserves.

B) This is not BESIDES Stage II, as it seems obvious that once you have taken the possibility of buying
a Hand Build Epic-X it will be EXECUTING one of your ORIGINAL Stage II Reservations.

C) TATTOO or Stage I was to be paid in full @ 28k and not the discounted Stage II deal of 19.5K and
for this I say it could be very fair to pay this and possibly some more for an early Hand Build Epic-X.

D) All the Above stil off course will depend on time line of getting the early Hand Build Epic-X vs. the
rest of stage II production cameras.

E) As Jim stated that this early Hand Build cameras will not be effecting the Production line of the
other Stage II cameras, I trust there should be no concern at all to those not entering the early opportunity to an Hand Build Epic-X.

[Antonio Forjaz]

Please give us a price, and I am sure you will be building many HANDMADE EPIC's very soon.

[C.H.Haskell]

I will Echo Mark and Ketch, I will pay a premium to get EPIC-X in my hands shooting now while you build production line. I think this option is very fair for the customer and the demand certainly exist so lets get this ball rolling shall we.

Oh I almost forgot to mention! Happy Turkey Day Jim and Redusers! Enjoy the holiday.

[Tim Morten]

No question that there will be some percentage of customers willing/able to pay a premium to get their cameras first. Given what some miguided people are paying for an Alexa, Red could double Epic's price and it would still be a bargain. Times being what they are though, there will be many who can't afford the premium - I am definitely in this latter category (and I'm grateful that Red is honoring it's original price, even if the delivery timeline remains uncertain).

- Tim

[Antoine Fabi]

Depends on price and how much time we would save compared to normal production line.

Antoine

[D Fuller]

I will Echo Mark and Ketch, I will pay a premium to get EPIC-X in my hands shooting now while you build production line. I think this option is very fair for the customer and the demand certainly exist so lets get this ball rolling shall we.


It's intriguing (depending on the amount of the premium) and assuming it records audio and that some of the modules are available -- say power, I/O, evf, and one of the 3 ways to control the camera? And at lease one of the sizes of SSDs.

Safe to say there is interest, but Jim, you've got to give us a little more detail before you're going to have a meaningful read of who will buy. I'm not so interested in paying a premium to have an Epic body on my desk that I can't really use for production because none of the other stuff is ready. I don't think you would propose that, but I'm not sure what you are proposing.

So have a great Thanksgiving! I'm looking forward to hearing more after the holiday.

[Meryem Ersoz]

I'm sure it will be priced out of my range, but I think it is really awesome that you're offering this option. Bring on the EPICs and silence the critics.

The more of these you can get in the field, the less you'll have to listen to the "not shipping" critique and the closer I will get to my production model. And we'll get feedback from the folks in the field.

My only question is - what about recording media? It seems like all of the other RED accessories will work with EPIC until the full EPIC line is released, but recording media continues to be a scarce commodity - what is the word on being able to meet demand on recording media for the release cameras?

[Michael Hastings]

I think this option is very fair for the customer ....



...snip
I dunno Jim.. The more I think about this... The more red flags it brings up.

This is such a complicated release, and there's so much I/we do not know. I think the better track right now is to stay with your origional plan.

Jay

I have been stewing about this for a few minutes. On the one hand I'm interested because I'd like a camera sooner rather than later.

But I have to disagree with Haskell - I think there are some serious fairness issues here.

And I have to agree with Jay. Lotta red flags.

Jim:

I don't want to get branded with the "bad attitude" stamp but a few weeks ago you said Epic was finalized in its major respects and "released for production". Well, honestly I thought that's where you would have been when you asked us for $5000 deposits on stage 2. I understand how getting the exact board and electronics design finalized can be hard to predict and have delays, but I'm having a harder time understanding how the manufacturing and assembly line stuff wasn't virtually completed quite a while ago.

But that's all water under the bridge. No, I don't want my deposit back, and no I don't want another camera - I want the camera I ordered, from the company I have been on board with and promoted since day one.

But before you start asking about altering the program, after you've taken those 25% deposits, it's time to lay out what's really going on:

A realistic `description of what you are doing in terms of mfg. facility and how long that is going to take; what's going on with these circuit boards - AFAIK board manufacturing is pretty straightforward from lots of suppliers with pretty short turnaround and usually the time it takes is more about lead time scheduling - if they can make a few dozen boards they can make hundreds in another day or two. Special lemo connectors can take awhile but you've known what those were for months. I thought you would be CNC machining body parts for all of the epics but even if the long range plan is casting, the additional cost to CNC is not that great in strict dollar terms or as a percentage of the price. Seems like you should have your own CNC capability, but if not there are dozens in your area. And how many man hours does it really take to handbuild one of these?

Maybe I'm mistaken because I've underestimated the complexity, if so then educate us a bit. I can't see how some better disclosure at this late date, so close to delivery and given the announcements the other players have already made, will really give away any big secrets to competitors.

As far as a new program, I think anything that dramatically changes the cost of entry or delivery order is unfair.

In particular a higher priced/no trade in/jump the line version just reeks of unfairness.

Here's my scenario for what might be reasonable and fair (no consulting fee, this one time :-) )

1) you lay out that it is going to be say 4-10 weeks (whatever you think it is) to get real production setup.
2) you estimate that you can make 10 to 20 (whatever it is) per week in the mean time. The prepro number will be limited to that max times the max estimate of weeks e.g. 15 units x 10 weeks = 150. Beyond that it is unfair to string the other people out, and you should just wait for full production.
3) You offer the stage 2 people to take their camera early (in order of original SN/delivery date) as one of these "handbuilts" for a $1000-$1500 (and $1500 is pushing it) premium on top of their $19500.

I'm not saying that $1000 will or won't cover the difference. I'm saying that it should either 1) cover it or 2) you should eat the difference as part of development and learning costs, goodwill and the PR value of getting it out or:

3) DON'T DO IT if 1 or 2 isn't acceptable. I'm sure many would buy outright at a high price, but regardless of whether some will go for it, it is abusive to the rest.


PS I had serious concerns about saying this at all/possible repercussions, but I think it needed to be said. Please take it in the spirit it is given. And Happy Thanksgiving to all the RED team.

[sandro-bachmann]

[QUOTE
3) DON'T DO IT if 1 or 2 isn't acceptable. I'm sure many would buy outright at a high price, but regardless of whether some will go for it, it is abusive to the rest. [/QUOTE]

I second that, :smilewinkgrin: good point brotha :thumbsup:

[Elsie N]

Michael and Sandro-bachmann have legitimate concerns, but I think by simply making this a handmade version for those in the Stage 2 line in place of... not in addition to, is where a fairness balance is achieved. That helps those of us unable to pony up the extra cash for a handmade model be a little closer to getting our cameras (depending on our place in line) when the production model is released.

[JD Holloway]

as for 1-2-3

1) I kinda have the feeling that its going to be more like 4 -10 months before we see an assembly line Epic. Thats why this is on the table.

2) I have a feeling they would be lucky to hand assemble 10 - 20 per month.

3) this makes some sense to me, price variable. (1000-1500 seems inexpensive though). Seems like a no-brainer.

It feels like the stage one option offered earlier doesn't it? What happened to those guys? This feels like their deal, not a stage 2 deal.

Tattoo Two? Ta-Too-Too?

I can sympathize with your need for more information regarding a timetable for delivery though. At least a best guess, Subject to Change
(trademark).

[Ryan E. Walters]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim


This is of interest to me, but before I decided one way or the other I would want to know the answers to the following:

1. What kind of price increase are we talking about?

2. Is this in addition to Stage 2 (Am I buying another camera) or can this be in replacement of my Stage 2 camera?

3. Will the other accessories ship with it? (The new LCD, Side SSD, 64GB SSD's, Batteries, etc.) Basically, will I have a fully working camera?

4. What is the estimated timeline for the production line being up and running, and when it is going, what is the number of Epics that will be shipping per month?

[JD Holloway]

omit

[Albert C Martin]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim

Wow ... awesome! Depending on the price count me in for as many as 5! Any limit on the order of these? haha Definitely looking forward to more info on this.

Opening our new facility in a matter of months so this may be a hugely beneficial option to pay more and have them now vs. hoping we get the production version in time.

Happy Thanksgiving Jim and everyone at RED ... go eat some turkey and relax for a bit :)

[Tonaci Tran]

I am very interested, just dying to know how much this will cost.

[Antonio Forjaz]

This is of interest to me, but before I decided one way or the other I would want to know the answers to the following:

1. What kind of price increase are we talking about?

2. Is this in addition to Stage 2 (Am I buying another camera) or can this be in replacement of my Stage 2 camera?

3. Will the other accessories ship with it? (The new LCD, Side SSD, 64GB SSD's, Batteries, etc.) Basically, will I have a fully working camera?

4. What is the estimated timeline for the production line being up and running, and when it is going, what is the number of Epics that will be shipping per month?

All very good points.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

Well, I'm definitely interested. But I'm probably too far down the line with my two Stage-2 reservations for it to be realistic for me.

You say there is no trade-in allowance? So I'm assuming that means these will be the full $28K Epic purchase price PLUS an additional premium to make it happen. OK, yes, I'm still interested in doing that for one of my cameras. RED #1110 specifically as that's the reservation I own in my name personally.

Timing is key though and I have to be realistic about how I'm budgeting for my upcoming Epic-X purchases. Most of what I have planned for my Epic-X cameras are all my own projects, but being first on the block, even in my market, is a huge deal.

So I guess the big questions are:

1> What will be the price of the hand-made units?

2> How long will it take to tool up the full production line? So how much time could we be potentially saving if we were one of the first to get the hand-made unit, compared to the first units rolling off the assembly line?

3> I hear the no trade-in allowance loud and clear. But what about delivery date priorities? Do they still factor into this in addition to RED camera #? If someone chooses this hand-made option, do they get upgraded delivery date priority in the future for taking the plunge?

4> How many of these hand-made cameras can you guys produce in a week?

[Tim Whitcomb]

I had serious concerns about saying this at all/possible repercussions.

I wish you had heeded those concerns somewhat Michael. While you made some good points., please remember RED is absolutely under NO OBLIGATION to even have a trade-in program. NO other camera company does, so please dont use words like UNFAIR. Subject to Change has been the Mantra - and Jim made it clear that they are still "working it out". Ive never seen them try to be unfair to anyone but themelves frankly.

Happy thanksgiving - I am extremely thankful for the RED TEAM and this VERY generous trade-in opportunity. Which needs to end as as soon as possible as logistically can only Imagine what a big brain and resource drain it is on RED.

The sooner they get to operate without that burden, the better RED service and offerings will be. And its already great. Just bumpy supply.

cheers

[Elsie N]

as for 1-2-3

1) I kinda have the feeling that its going to be more like 4 -10 months before we see an assembly line Epic. Thats why this is on the table.

2) I have a feeling they would be lucky to hand assemble 10 - 20 per month.



This is one point many are overlooking. I seriously doubt there would be more than 20-30 cameras machined and assembled before normal production begins. So this would affect very few since they will be going by number and that small a run would be gobble-gobbled up before the majority had a chance to participate. But if they make it Stage 2 replacement cams, then we all get some benefit of getting the early numbers out of the way... not to mention the benefit of them being beta testers.

[C.H.Haskell]

THere is a lot we dont know here...the way I see it is RED is only trying to get cameras in the hands of the people sooner then later. Whats unfair about that? Of course in my head I see this as a way for stage II folks (like myself) to pay a couple of k more to get one sooner then later...I could be dreaming, but if this was a scenario then sign me up.

[Harva Raj]

Bring on the EPIC PREMIUM already. $40k is a bargain!!

Just hope it's not on alpha mode...

[Michael Hastings]

I wish you had heeded those concerns somewhat Michael. While you made some good points., please remember RED is absolutely under NO OBLIGATION to even have a trade-in program. NO other camera company does, so please dont use words like UNFAIR. Subject to Change has been the Mantra - and Jim made it clear that they are still "working it out". Ive never seen them try to be unfair to anyone but themelves frankly.

Happy thanksgiving - I am extremely thankful for the RED TEAM and this VERY generous trade-in opportunity. Which needs to end as as soon as possible as logistically can only Imagine what a big brain and resource drain it is on RED.

The sooner they get to operate without that burden, the better RED service and offerings will be. And its already great. Just bumpy supply.

cheers

Where do you get your information? Other companies have had trade-in programs.

And no RED wasn't obligated INITIALLY to offer a trade in program - although it was the most practical way to actually follow through on the "obsolescence obsolete" mantra as I think even Jim has stated (not to mention mitigating frustration about the extremely long beta program) - but once you lay out the trade-in program, and take $5000 deposits and sit on them for another six months, then yes you do have some obligations - certainly MORALLY if not legally.

I'm excited about Epic. Now I'm getting upset. Happy Thanksgiving :sad:

[Jannard]

Where do you get your information? Other companies have had trade-in programs.

And no RED wasn't obligated INITIALLY to offer a trade in program - although it was the most practical way to actually follow through on the "obsolescence obsolete" mantra as I think even Jim has stated (not to mention mitigating frustration about the extremely long beta program) - but once you lay out the trade-in program, and take $5000 deposits and sit on them for another six months, then yes you do have some obligations - certainly MORALLY if not legally.

I'm excited about Epic. Now I'm getting upset. Happy Thanksgiving :sad:

Michael... we are not changing our program at all. Whether we offer these machined cameras or not has NOTHING to do with the timeline or pricing of production cameras. It actually helps us prepare for production. We don't have to do this, but "unfair" seems un-warranted.

Jim

[Tonaci Tran]

Hi Jim, if this does happen, will stage 2 reservation holders get priority?

[Antonio Forjaz]

Again, I think we should STOP guessing prices, and ley Jim do the maths and tell us how much

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If this does happen, will stage 2 reservation holders get priority?

I would hope so. :cool:

[Sven Seynaeve]

Could be nice , I really need some cameras asap aswell... Looking at the competition is no option I'd like to take. I want the Epics, and only the Epics,
so if you could build them and ask some or way more of it, it's still up to us to decide. If the timeframe stays the same for other stages, it's still fair.

In the first place , which other company did ever give you a full refund or some possibilities except selling your stuff and get some little discount because your a loyal client?

So if Jim can come up with a really fast and good solution for those who can't wait that's fine. Only thing, they have to work , but due to the fact that we have no real information on this except some footage and so from IBC, Ted and Tonaci and some other stuff, we can't be sure. So if all major concerns and possible big bugs or trouble has been figured out already , they should definately do this!!!!! But please update us asap...

[Sanjin Jukic]

What does it all mean?

If money is not problem than you could pay approximately between $60,000 to $120,000 for 100% handmade EPIC.

Not a bad deal...!!!

It's a great chance if you want to be making smart investment to earn fast cash with renting EPIC right now!

Have A Happy Thanksgiving!

[Shawn Nelson]

I'm conflicted about this idea. Jim, can we have a few questions? These are not 'gotcha' questions, just serious questions in my head as both an ardent Red supporter and as a professional engineer. Im dying to get this!

1. How many features has Epic completed wherein it was the Acam, used at least 10 hours a day for the duration (30+ days) of the shoot?
2. When you say 'no trade in allowance' I presume you mean no Stage 3, since Stage 2 fundamentally has no trade in. Is this correct? Would it effectively be Stage 2 + $?
3. How much extra $$ are we talking above Stage 2? Nearly every company in this field will give you free or reduced cost goods if you are a beta tester. Perhaps make the cameras the same cost but along with an understanding of rigorously contributing to these final crucial steps of the dev cycle?
4. Timeframe? Are you talking about December? January? Doing it in the next 30 days would be difficult. January is easier. And ditto to all the people asking how much this 'early' option means in shaving off the time.

Lastly, a general concern of mine is that I don't see how the camera process has been completed until production units are made and verified. Effectively you'd be selling prototypes? Once production is ironed out are these prototypes more or less robust?

Thanks! Please don't take offense to any of my questions, I only ask out of love and respect and REALLY looking forward to shooting my films on Epic :-)

[Jim Retar]

Just out of interest (Epic is out of my league, right now)

But how would the serial number work on these models? Straight into #1, #2, #3 etc or would they have names like the early RED ONEs.

It is interesting as, I imagine, these early models will have serious collector status.

[Jason Beckwith]

I say, "go for it!" . Even though I'm probably not financially able to take advantage of the deal, we are still in a free market economy, and the fact is that some have the money to take advantage of opportunities like this.

I was financially unable to get a Red in '06, even though I was at NAB. I saved up and got a high numbered camera. But, I watched the early adopters get opportunities that I could only dream of. I watched again as the MX upgrades rolled out slowly and the early R1-MX cameras were in high demand. Hopefully, Stage II should move me up in the line. There is a definite reason to pay a premium to get early access. I wouldn't begrudge that opportunity to others, just because I have yet to be successful enough to participate. With patience, and a lot of hard work, maybe I'll be able to take advantage of something like this in the future.

Really, I'm just happy to be in the game at all. The truth is that life is not fair. It's unrealistic to think that it is. Just watch animal planet... Life is meant to be a struggle!

Having said all that, i'd sure like to hear the answers to the common questions; how long until production Epics ship, how many hand made Epics could be expected before the line ramps up, and what is the full cost of a shootable hand-made Epic.

The answers to these questions may mean that someone with a high numbered camera, like me, doesn't even have a chance to get one one, even if the funds can be acquired. If so, no worries, that's just the way it is. It might actually be nice not to have to worry about it, follow along as the fortunate few dial in the workflow, bust the firmware bugs and get everything in order for us late adopters.

Like many here, I'm dying for my Epic. As long as this program doesn't delay mine, I'll do my best to be happy for those that get these. If this program goes forward, I make this appeal to the fortunate few; please share your experiences with the camera here, so that we can share your excitement, learn from your experiences and hit the ground running when we finally get ours.

I guess this just happened on a day when I'm feeling thankful for my family and everything I have in my life. As much as i envy the people that get these, I have no doubt that many envy my position as Stage II reservation holder. I hope you all have a happy thanksgiving.

[Adam C Lubkin]

If this "has NOTHING to do with the timeline or pricing of production cameras" then it seems clear to me that our stage-2 cameras will not be affected. In other words, this is an additional, optional line of Epic cameras. In that case, I'm all for it. I just hope I can afford it if my number comes up.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Just get as many working EPICs out the door, as soon as you possibly can. The rest is just noise. Seriously.

If there are limitations to the functionality or parts that aren't quite ready, just be clear and honest and open and straightforward about what these are.

All will be well.

RED has shown us a lot of love throughout this process - let's let them get this party started, as soon as possible, on terms that are favorable to them, making money from their technology and putting EPIC cameras to work sooner than later.

Can you imagine shipping EPICs by Christmas 2010 - that would kill!!!!!

Let the flags of the revolution unfurl.

[Elsie N]

Can you imagine shipping EPICs by Christmas 2010 - that would kill!!!!!


That would be great!!... as long as no elves were killed or injured in the making of that deadline.:smilewinkgrin:

[Dan Blanchett]

I need more information before weighing in conclusively, such as pricing, buying limits and estimated production schedule.

The timeline of production Stage 2 Epics is a bit of a concern at this point. If these jump-the-line, hand-built Epics could shorten the Stage 2 line, instead of being "in addition" to it, I would be more enthusiastic.

[Jannard]

This discussion has been picked up on the other thread...

Jim

[Antonio Forjaz]

:closed2ur0: