cf card reader...?

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

What CF card reader can I use to transfer from RED CF card? I know it needs to be fast, but can a normal USB 2 readser be used, or does it have to be specific.

Reason I ask is I might be borrowing one next week, I did post this a few days ago but got lost in the meltdown :cold:...

I have a SanDisk Extreme but it is USB 2...

THX

[Justin Kirchhoff]

rumor has it most owners are using firewire 800 readers....extremely fast. that's what i suggest. you may want to PM one of the owners, like OffHollywood and ask them.

[S. Um]

If you don't have time constraints, then any card reader can be used.

[Noah Kadner]

We're still on the road so we got a Targus USB-2 at Radio Shack- works like a charm. Of course we will be getting a nice Firewire 800 when we have a chance.

Noah

[Steve Gibby]

On location/set, we've been using Lexar Firewire800 Pro readers to a FW800-equipped MacBook Pro laptops, with excellent speed and consistent results. They're stackable, so for larger projects we have two of them stacked at our data station, output to separate laptops and raided drives.

Link: http://www.lexar.com/readers/pro_udma_reader.html

Early on, we also used two different SanDisk readers (Extreme and Multi Reader), with mostly good results, although we did have a SanDisk Extreme give us some apparent problems on one project.

I'd suggest you buy two readers and two sets of cables, and take them both + extra cables on each shoot.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

On location/set, we've been using Lexar Firewire800 Pro readers to a FW800-equipped MacBook Pro laptops, with excellent speed and consistent results. They're stackable, so for larger projects we have two of them stacked at our data station.

hi
Are they compatible with PC and MAC desktop computers ?

[Steve Gibby]

hi
Are they compatible with PC and MAC desktop computers ?

I would guess that the Lexar FW800 reader is compatible with any PC or Mac that has FW800 or FW400 capability. That said, keep in mind that RED Alert! is currently just compatible with Mac, so even if you download the files to your PC, you won't be able to currently process them with RED Alert!. When REDCINE is available, it will be compatible with PC and Mac.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

I would guess that the Lexar FW800 reader is compatible with any PC or Mac that has FW800 or FW400 capability. That said, keep in mind that RED Alert! is currently just compatible with Mac, so even if you download the files to your PC, you won't be able to currently process them with RED Alert!. When REDCINE is available, it will be compatible with PC and Mac.

Thanks Gibby i am Using Mac NOW

[I Bloom]

I went into Tekserve our local pro mac retailer in NYC, to pickup a CF reader last week. The sales person told me that the fastest CF card is still slower than Firewire 400. It didn't make any sense to me, and I wanted to see if anyone could explain this too me.

IBloom

[Kevin Lang]

Does anyone know if this will work or if it is any faster?
http://www.delkin.com/products/connect/adapters/

[Kevin Halverson]

Can't comment on the express card version, but I have been using a PCMCIA one and can read an 8GB card in just over 3 minutes.

[Paul Leeming]

I'm going to test some of those sub-notebooks with built-in CF readers to see how they stack up before I take delivery of my first Red. Combined with something like the dual simultaneous backup option of the Century KD25/35MA it should provide for a very portable on set backup solution:

http://www.visceralpsyche.com/misc/web_images/century_kd25_35ma.jpg

I'll be sure to post results when I do.

Cheers,

Paul

[Harmonica]

Can't comment on the express card version, but I have been using a PCMCIA one and can read an 8GB card in just over 3 minutes.

I'm considering going with a PCMCIA reader for my powerbook G4. What brand/model is your adapter and your computer, khmuse? Does anyone have any thoughts on this cheapy (http://mxflash.stores.yahoo.net/readpcmciacfsd.html)?

[PaulClements]

I actually had a look at this thread yesterday and was thinking the same about pcmcia cards Harmonica! All the ones I looked at seemed fairly slow, though most of them were only CFI rated. This one might be a bit fast since it is suited to CFII. At that price, it's worth a try surely. Let us know what it's like.

Also from all the CF readers I've looked at the one that Gibby talked about earlier in this thread seems like one of the better ones. The Lexar Firewire 800 Stackable. Basically you can work from a few CF on one computer as they each piggyback.

Paul

[Kevin Halverson]

I'm considering going with a PCMCIA reader for my powerbook G4. What brand/model is your adapter and your computer, khmuse? Does anyone have any thoughts on this cheapy (http://mxflash.stores.yahoo.net/readpcmciacfsd.html)?

I really don't think that the brand of the adapter is going to make any difference at all as they are effectively a passive form factor adapter, the buss speed of the host is really all that will effect the throughput. My testing was done on a several year old HP notebook (Pavilion 4000 series), which is nothing special at all.

[Greg M]

Does anyone know if this will work or if it is any faster?
http://www.delkin.com/products/connect/adapters/

It works fine
The only problem I have with it is when inserting cf cards you push in and that releases the Express card from the slot. So you have to hold the card while inserting the CF which is a pain. I prefer the Lexar 800, although it is bulkier and uses the very stiff 800 cable.

Lexar 800 is about 3 min to copy an 8gb card
Delkin Express is about 4 minutes

[Alexander Nikishin]

I've been using the Sandisk Extreme usb2 reader with no problems.

Offloads a card in 8 minutes flat.

I also just ordered the Sandsik 400/800 card reader from Best Buy online for $90.

I think it's good to have both usb2 and fw options though incase the offloading station doesn't permit the latter.

[Chuck T.]

SanDisk (Extreme Firewire): Small, Rugged Build, Good Cables, 8GB <3min.
Works great...!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/446772-REG/Sandisk_SDDRX4_CFR_Extreme_FireWire_CompactFlash_C ard.html

[Deanan]

We've used the Lexar800 reader the most and that's the one I trust the most.
I'm currently testing out a expresscard 34 reader on the mac that is true pci-e and not usb over expresscard like the Delkin. It's faster than the Lexar one but not by much. The advantage is that you are not reading and writing over fw800. It also seems to mount the card really fast.

The disadvantage is that it's easy to eject the card reader from the slot.

[Harmonica]

I really don't think that the brand of the adapter is going to make any difference at all as they are effectively a passive form factor adapter, the buss speed of the host is really all that will effect the throughput. My testing was done on a several year old HP notebook (Pavilion 4000 series), which is nothing special at all.

Thanks, khmuse. I don't really know anything about PCMCIA CF card adapters, but I was a little shocked at how "affordable" it is.

Are there any arguments as to why it would be better to go with an external vs. a pcmcia reader, besides the fact you could use it with a desktop as well?

[RCFisher]

Well CF readers have several issues. First using a PCMCIA reader is slow, only 16 bit, Try finding a 32 bit PCMCIA or they also call them PC Card readers. It does make a difference! I shoot a lot of stills and did some testing a few years ago what I found out was that with slow cards of the time it took 11 min to download a card (2GB) with a PCMCIA 16 bit reader, using a PC Card reader, 32 bit, same card took 5 min to download. With the new Fast IDE, 200-300X, cards a 32 bit reader is even faster since the data rate is limited by the speed of the CF card. The new Lexar FW800 card reader use this newer tech and are fast! I have an older FW400 Lexar CF reader and it's fast but not quite as fast as the new ones. Also the newer CF cards 300X i think have a data rate of around 40-45MB/sec which doesn't saturate the FW bus but even faster cards will come and they will. I have had several FW CF card readers and I have been the happiest with the Lexar FW400 model I have, need to get the newer one though soon!

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We've used the Lexar800 reader the most and that's the one I trust the most.
I'm currently testing out a expresscard 34 reader on the mac that is true pci-e and not usb over expresscard like the Delkin. It's faster than the Lexar one but not by much. The advantage is that you are not reading and writing over fw800. It also seems to mount the card really fast.

I would definitely be interested in that EC34 CF reader -- is it readily available somewhere? I'm mostly interested because that would allow the FW800 bus on the MBP to be occupied by just an external drive system. But more than likely, I'll be doing EC34 to eSATA and reading from the FW800 reader.

[Deanan]

I would recommend using the lexar fw800s for serious work until
you know that these are reliable. I've only used this one for a few
days and so far it seems good:

http://www.mobileplanet.com/p.aspx?i=151648

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks, Deanan. I'll have to keep an eye on that one. For $50 it may just be a handy addition to have.

[Harmonica]

Well CF readers have several issues. First using a PCMCIA reader is slow, only 16 bit, Try finding a 32 bit PCMCIA or they also call them PC Card readers. It does make a difference! I shoot a lot of stills and did some testing a few years ago what I found out was that with slow cards of the time it took 11 min to download a card (2GB) with a PCMCIA 16 bit reader, using a PC Card reader, 32 bit, same card took 5 min to download. With the new Fast IDE, 200-300X, cards a 32 bit reader is even faster since the data rate is limited by the speed of the CF card. The new Lexar FW800 card reader use this newer tech and are fast! I have an older FW400 Lexar CF reader and it's fast but not quite as fast as the new ones. Also the newer CF cards 300X i think have a data rate of around 40-45MB/sec which doesn't saturate the FW bus but even faster cards will come and they will. I have had several FW CF card readers and I have been the happiest with the Lexar FW400 model I have, need to get the newer one though soon!

Thanks, RC. Actually, the system profiler on my PB G4 says "pc card." I just thought that was Apple's way of saying "PCMCIA." So this means I'm 32 bit? Hot dog!

[Kevin Halverson]

Here is an interesting standalone device, can't tell if its limited to file formats that it supports or if it will just move files to the HDD.

http://www.adorama.com/ICDHCS80.html?emailprice=t&sid=1194631112891133

The speed isn't bad (>25MB/s) and the price seems very reasonable.

[Evin Grant]

We've been using the San Disk FW800 readers with great sucsess.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/446772.jpg
We can simultainiously offload one 8GB card to two drives in under five minuets with these puppies as long as they are all on FW800.

[Dominic Jones]

I went into Tekserve our local pro mac retailer in NYC, to pickup a CF reader last week. The sales person told me that the fastest CF card is still slower than Firewire 400. It didn't make any sense to me, and I wanted to see if anyone could explain this too me.

IBloom
Thought I'd pick up on this since no-one else seems to have done...

I don't know the max speeds of 300x CF cards precisely (or the exact Red ones for that matter), but given that the guys (and gals!) at Red had to test various cards to find any with suitable sustained write rates, and given that Redcode RAW @ 4K is around 27MB/s, that would seem to suggest that the max write rates of the fastest CF cards are somewhere in the region of 30-35MB/s (currently).

Usually read rates are a little faster than write rates, so the max read rates might be about 40-45MB/s (this is assuming a similar read/write relationship to HDDs holds true - I'm not very up on CF media).

Now, FW400 is, obviously, 400Mb/s = 50MB/s, but that's a theoretical maximum. FW is pretty good with overheads though, compared to USB/Ethernet/etc, and on my FW400 drives that are RAID-0 (so can sustain > 50MB/s reads) our Blackmagic Speedtest utility reads a transfer rate of around 40MB/s - so that looks like about the maximum real-world performance of FW-400.

So he may just be right, but if the connection is faster than the CF reads, it's not by much - given that CF speeds will undoubtedly go up, it may be worth getting a FW-800 reader for future proofing alone. You might even see a slight increase in transfer speeds over FW-800 now, with the very fastest media...

QED!

EDIT: Just thinking about it from a sales-person's point of view, assuming the above educated guesswork is in the right ballpark, then if you go by quoted numbers alone (i.e. you use the theoretical max bit-rate of FW-400 as your threshold), I can easily see why someone would come to the conclusion that your man in Tekserve came to - even if it's not quite right in real-world terms.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I have used both FW400 and FW800 CF Readers and the 800 is much faster. While Firewire may be a better mousetrap than Ethernet or USB in terms of overhead it still has some.

My non-scientific (haven't broken out a stopwatch) real world experience leads me to believe that with FW800 the percentage of throughput eaten up by overhead still leaves enough bandwidth to allow the maximum transfer rate the CF card can give you. With FW400 the bus architecture (in common implementation on a MacBook Pro for example) does present a noticeable bottleneck.

The other plus is that FW800 connectors are more robust than FW400 and in the field that counts. Just sayin'

[Dominic Jones]

Ah, interesting - cheers for the input mate.

As is probably pretty obvious, my calculations were definitely in the realm of the back-of-a-fag-packet field (fag=cigarette, for our American friends - before you get worried!) - I'll take your real-world experience over that, any day.

And totally agree re: connector benefits - can't tell you haw many times I've had to "save" disks by opening them up and tweaking the FW-400 pins.

I wonder what the sustained read speed of 300x CF is then - any insight on that Blair?

[Brent J. Craig]

I'm using the SATA CF reader mentioned earlier in the thread. Tested sustained read speed on Red 8GB cards is 43 MB/s, meaning I can dump a card a good bit faster than the camera can shoot it.

Dominic - when something is rated at 300x, it means 300 times the speed of a single-speed cdrom drive. Since the original cdroms and audio CDs transfer 150 kB/s, 300x that = 45000 kB/s = 44 MB/s.

I am very curious to see how the SATA reader will work when even faster CF cards come out. Will they max out the SATA bus or is there some other limiting factor?