Opinion on EVF. [Archive]

Steve Gibby

10-22-2007, 10:44 AM

There are a few EVF's being tested out there, but to my knowledge the EVF isn't shipping yet - word is we're close though.

I used Stuart English's RED EVF on RED #8 briefly at the Jackson Hole Wildlife Film Festival a few weeks ago. In a word: impressive. Those of you who have used an AccuScene EVF before will be relatively familiar with what the RED EVF can do - but IMO RED has done some excellent RED-friendly enhancements to the EVF.

I used the RED EVF in a mobile EFP setup on #8, with the RED 18-50 zoom in 4k RC RAW, and also with the RED B4 adaptor and a Fujinon 16x6.5 HD EFP/ENG zoom lens in 2k RC RAW. Thanks to Stuart for the brief loan of his EVF for my shooting.

My first impression? Very cool. I can't wait to get my RED EVF and put it to work. I've had very good results with the LCD also, but for the wide range of cine-style and EFP style productions I do, I need both the EVF and LCD, and both will be used extensively.

We should have an EVF to shoot with at the upcoming LART sessions, so look for our impressions of it. BTW...yesterday I started a new thread on the LART forum announcing the re-scheduled LART dates as November 17 (Saturday) and November 18 (Sunday). More details on the LART forum shortly...

The EVF rocks...

Kevin Lang

10-22-2007, 10:56 AM

I am very excited about the EVF, I saw the Accuview a couple years ago at NAB and loved it had to have it for our CineAlta.....then they told me the price it was like $18000 I then turned and walked away. Imagine cost more the Red body itself! I was very excited when I heard it was being used on Red.

S. Um

10-22-2007, 11:17 AM

The EVF rocks...

Gibby,

I know you didn't have the EVF for very long, but could you give us a quick run down of what you liked and didn't like about the EVF. And the LCD, for that matter.

Stuart English

10-22-2007, 11:27 AM

Clarification. The RED-EVF is not an Accuscene, but the point is - if you have previously had a demo of an Accuscene, you will find common design ideas. A key difference is that where the Accuscene was a stand alone device, the RED-EVF is a digital display system that is fully integrated with, and cannot operate independent of, the RED-ONE.

Advantages of the RED-EVF include - lower cost, SurroundView(tm) and user programmable control surface inputs back to the the camera

Steve Gibby

10-22-2007, 11:28 AM

Gibby,

I know you didn't have the EVF for very long, but could you give us a quick run down of what you liked and didn't like about the EVF. And the LCD, for that matter.

I'd be happy to post a quick summary of my initial impression of the EVF and a more in-depth impression of the LCD, which I've used extensively for seven weeks now. I'll do that later today - I'm slammed with a "To Do" list for my projects right now.

Thanks for that clarification Stuart. I didn't mean to imply that the RED EVF was an AccuScene, just that anyone who has used the AccuScene will have a rough idea of the build/usage/quality of the RED EVF.

Stuart English

10-22-2007, 02:32 PM

No problem Gibby. People keep asking thats all.

Can you post an images of the EVF in action at Jackson?

Alexander Nikishin

10-22-2007, 03:02 PM

Thom Steinhoff

10-22-2007, 03:11 PM

...user programmable control surface inputs back to the the camera

I like the sound of this. How does this feature work?

I always thought it would be cool to have a small 16x9 touch pad to instantly zoom the view to full resolution in relative XY location of the touch. Then, to allow you to slide your finger around to see a pixel for pixel view around the image.

Could this be the type of "control surface" you mentioned?

Stuart English

10-22-2007, 03:15 PM

Control surfaces mean - you have a rotary encoder and three push buttons - what do you intend to do with them?

HD-SDI and EVF / LCD out at the same time is being worked on. Meanwhile ou can push / pull the video between them.

Steve Gibby

10-22-2007, 05:58 PM

Can you post an image of the EVF in action at Jackson?

Absolutely...here's some pics of RED #8 in full non-hardlined EFP mode, sporting the RED EVF, RED B4 adaptor, and a Fujinon 16x6.5 HD EFP/ENG zoom.

The overall rig felt nearly identical in weight and balance to the mobile EFP camera systems I've used extensively for most of my career. What has impressed me is how RED One morphs into what you want it to be for each project, whether it be cine-style or EFP style.

With the EVF I seriously liked the SurroundView feature, the HD resolution (1280x868), the concept of user programmable buttons, having the camera data selectable for display above and below the frame, and many other features.

I only tested the EVF out for about a half hour, but it was more than enough to make me very stoked that I ordered one for RED #8. The range of shooting styles and genres I do calls for both the EVF and LCD.

BTW...the 2k RC RAW footage from that setup came out very good. The rig handled just how professional TV/video shooters are used to. I did all focusing manually (using the simple image magnification function of the camera), and nailed all exposure accurately by simply using 100 IRE zebra and protecting for the highlights. I didn't have the connector for the powered zoom rocker switch, that uses RED One's auxiliary 12v bus, but that would have completed the EFP style setup. Mobile EFP production with RED One is a reality folks...

Big thanks to Clark Dunbar of Mammoth HD for taking the pics and supplying them to me.

Jay A. Kelley

10-22-2007, 06:31 PM

Gibby,

How much does the 2K windows mode change the focal lenght.. I'm not looking for numbers as much as "did you really notice it, or was it a small change"

Jay

Steve Gibby

10-22-2007, 06:44 PM

Gibby,

How much does the 2K windows mode change the focal lenght.. I'm not looking for numbers as much as "did you really notice it, or was it a small change"

Jay

Small change...not a hindrance or annoyance at all.

tj williams

10-22-2007, 08:39 PM

Hi Gibby will the camera balance on your shoulder ie like Aaton? It looks like the shoulder piece does not come far enough back???

jimhare

10-22-2007, 09:10 PM

Stuart, when will both the HD-SDI feeds and the onboard LCD and EVF feeds be able to operate simultaneously?

I find the lack of being able to operate with the onboards while having a set monitor to be a serious issue.

My understanding is all outputs will be operational simultaneously very soon. This will be very useful.

Jim

Steve Gibby

10-22-2007, 09:39 PM

Hi Gibby will the camera balance on your shoulder ie like Aaton? It looks like the shoulder piece does not come far enough back???

The way I had it rigged, it was balanced pretty well. The Fujinon 16x6.5 lens used in the pic is pretty light for its size. The EVF weight is just about at the center of balance axis. I think a sliding-position shoulder pad system, and mounting the EVF at the center of balance, will help balance the rig with each possible lens/EVF/battery/ combination for shoulder held shooting.

Brook Willard

10-22-2007, 09:55 PM

...the HD resolution (1280x868)...

It's 1,280 x 848 if memory serves [which it very well may not... :)].

Nice to see that the RED holds its own in this EFP configuration.

S. Um

10-22-2007, 10:41 PM

Gibby,

Thanks for posting your impressions and the pictures. Looks like the Red One can be handled pretty much like any other EFP camera, which should boost its sales.

Did you try the LCD in the same shoulder mount configuration? Looks like it might be too close to your face to get a clear picture.

Vince Arvidson

10-22-2007, 10:45 PM

Gibby,

Thanks for all your efforts to supply info to the community as you are able.

I had a couple of questions:

Can you explain what SurroundView is?
Was getting the evf horizon parallel to the camera a challenge?

Thanks, Vince

Casey Green

10-22-2007, 11:23 PM

SurroundView(tm) is a RED Camera feature which allows the operator to see outside the frameline area of the image, much like Film Cameras can.

With the added resolution the RED One offers, Operators, DPs, Directors, etc. will be able to see outside the frame edges in the viewfinder, LCD, and other monitor outputs which is very useful.

One example is when the Sound Mixer can communicate to the boom operators when the microphones are nearing the frameline...

Jim Arthurs

10-23-2007, 05:43 AM

Was getting the evf horizon parallel to the camera a challenge?

Expanding on this question... how easy is it to make small adjustments with one hand to the EVF when on the arm?

I would think it's fairly heavy and the arm handle would need to be cranked down, which might make it hard to adjust without grabbing the handle with one hand and the EVF in the other...

Jay A. Kelley

10-23-2007, 06:09 AM

The fact that you can set up this camera as an EFP camera is a huge deal. This is major folks.

This camera will change everything.

And can you believe we're talking "only" 2K!!!!! That's friggin unbelievable

Jay

Mick van Rossum, NSC

10-23-2007, 07:14 AM

Steve Gibby

10-23-2007, 07:38 AM

It's 1,280 x 848 if memory serves [which it very well may not... :)].

Nice to see that the RED holds its own in this EFP configuration.

Good catch Brook...a typo on my part...vertical res of the EVF is 848, not 868

Yes, it's way cool that RED has included EFP capability. Here's some background and insight on that:

My input to RED at the very first RED One camera specifications meeting in December 2005 included both cine-style and EFP style recommendations. I work in a broad array of genres within those two styles. I jumped on the RED bandwagon in 2005 because I felt and hoped that RED One would be a scalable, flexible, and high utility camera system that could be re-setup quickly and easily for cine-style and EFP style production. I've fought since 2005 for RED One to retain its EFP capabilities. As you can see from the pics I posted, it has. I'm very happy about that...

Since receiving RED #8 seven weeks ago I've placed the camera in almost every kind of shooting genre possible, from large crew film style productions down to just me hiking miles into the wilderness to shoot nature footage. It's been used for 4k 3D, underwater, commercials, features, stock footage, sports, nature, documentary style, hand held EFP, POV, shoulder held EFP, jibs, stabilization systems, and on and on - all in the past seven weeks since receiving the camera.

Narrative cinema gets a lot of attention on RED User, and many on in this community may choose to ignore RED One's EFP capabilities, but RED One was conceived from the very beginning as a multi-use cine style and EFP style camera system - and I'm one of the ones who will truly maximize RED One's design and revenue generating capabilities. Non-hardlined EFP represents the single largest production percentage of the total of motion media projects worldwide each year - and consequently represents the single largest potential market for RED One.

IMO RED was very wise to include EFP capability in RED One. The days of people just limiting themselves to either cine style of EFP style are past. Today's technology, combined with yesterday's techniques, now erases the former dividing lines between cine-style and EFP style, and enables a much broader choice of projects we can do.

Stuart English

10-23-2007, 07:41 AM

I think there is room for improvement in the arm IMHO

We are always evaluating the components in the design for improvement, so user feedback such as this is welcome.

Here is an illustration of the EVF - showing Surround View and Frame Guides being adjusted

Steve Gibby

10-23-2007, 07:49 AM

Expanding on this question... how easy is it to make small adjustments with one hand to the EVF when on the arm?

I would think it's fairly heavy and the arm handle would need to be cranked down, which might make it hard to adjust without grabbing the handle with one hand and the EVF in the other...

It's not easy to make adjustments to the EVF position with one hand. The adjustable arm that I use for the LCD, and used for the EVF in the pics, was adequate to mount the EVF, but IMO better for use with the LCD than with the EVF. That said, I'm sure RED and 3rd party fabricators are aware of the need for a mount for the EVF that has the capability of quick and easy vertical and lateral adjustments to the EVF position relative to the camera and operator. Because I was time-challenged that day and didn't have the single RED Cage piece for the left-front of the camera body to mount the EVF on, I simply mounted the EVF on the top-left of the camera body. In reality, and with planning, the EVF can be mounted anywhere on the camera or on its accessories that have mounting holes - a significant improvement over traditional EVF mountings on cameras that are fixed in location and only have a vertical position adjustment.

The EVF seriously rocks. Once the mounting options are exploited that will complete the scenario.

Scott M

10-23-2007, 08:39 AM

IMO RED was very wise to include EFP capability in RED One. The days of people just limiting themselves to either cine style of EFP style are past. Today's technology, combined with yesterday's techniques, now erases the former dividing lines between cine-style and EFP style, and enables a much broader choice of projects we can do.

This is exactly why we bought one as well, the capability to bring a new level of consistent quality to the field/military environment with the ability for more if we want it..

Steve Gibby

10-23-2007, 08:44 AM

Did you try the LCD in the same shoulder mount configuration? Looks like it might be too close to your face to get a clear picture.

Here's some pics of the same rig setup using the LCD rather than the EVF. The LCD is mounted a bit higher than I would normally use it, something I could have adjusted easily before these pics were taken. Again, if I'd have had the one RED Cage piece for the left-front corner of the camera, I could have easily mounted the LCD much lower and farther forward. In these pics the LCD is far enough away from my eyes for me to see the image on it clearly.

When I shot in with this setup, all focus was easily achieved by sight by simply using the 2x image magnification button on the side of RED One, and exposure was quickly and easily achieved by using the 100 IRE zebra and simply protecting for the highlights. I shot 2k RC RAW @23.98fps and 72fps.

The LCD may not be optimum for a shoulder held EFP setup like that, but it is usable if you don't have the EVF. If the LCD was placed a bit farther away from my eyes, and I used an LCD hood to shade it, it could essentially be used the same as the EVF, but with less efficiency in that shoulder held setup. The LCD is excellent for a lot of uses. LCD resolution is 1024x600, but the EVF is 1280x848. Both show the camera data and menu navigation above and below the frame, although the EVF gives you the option of more camera data. BTW...because both show the menu navigation functions below the frame I rarely use the LCD on the back of the camera when navigating menus - all menu navigation is available to your eyes in the LCD of EVF.

I'll use both the LCD and EVF for the broad range of cine style and EFP style productions I do. Sometimes I'll use both simultaneously - a very cool feature that RED previously announced they intend to enable. Hopefully that will still be the case. When I have the EVF I'll still use the LCD widely for low angle, high angle, ActionCam, jib, POV, and many other uses.

I don't have the EVF yet, but I've used the LCD for a huge variety of shooting situations and genres in the last seven weeks, all with very good results. Again, I need both for what I do.

Thanks again to Clark Dunbar of Mammoth HD for taking the pics and supplying them to me.

Steve Gibby

10-23-2007, 09:01 AM

This is exactly why we bought one as well, the capability to bring a new level of consistent quality to the field/military environment with the ability for more if we want it..

That's great to hear, and it doesn't surprise me a bit. I'm a veteran (USAF), in fact a Viet Nam veteran, and I've already had preliminary talks with certain military entities for my production company to demo our RED One capabilities to them. They're very interested in RED One, obviously not for narrative cinema, but for the wide range of mobile EFP capabilities RED One has.

Veterans Day is coming up soon (November 11). Let me wish you in advance a very good Veteran's Day.

If you'd like, PM me to discuss my concepts of military applications for RED One. I'd be happy to continue an offline dialog on that.

Zach Hilton

10-23-2007, 09:18 AM

Thanks Gibby for all your information and opinions. I was debating on holding off on the EVF but I see now that it will be useful and allow me to broaden my horizons.

Paul Leeming

10-23-2007, 09:54 AM

Here is an illustration of the EVF - showing Surround View and Frame Guides being adjusted
Stuart, I think that's the first non-photographed view of the EVF info, so thanks for uploading it. Looks fantastic!

One thing I'd mention, just in case it hasn't been thought of (unlikely but you never know) - the frame guide number box currently selected (in your example shot it's 1.85 with a slider underneath) should probably be wide enough to accomodate future custom guides created and named by the users. Perhaps limit the guide overlay (PSD files?) name to 8 characters, but imagine scrolling past the Red presets to our own customised names and choosing them intuitively!

Outstanding stuff, keep up the good work!

Cheers,

Paul

jbeale

10-23-2007, 10:51 AM

Here is an illustration of the EVF - showing Surround View and Frame Guides being adjusted

That looks very nice! I'm sure images of any other viewfinder modes will find a very appreciative audience, as well.

S. Um

10-23-2007, 11:05 AM

Gibby,

Thanks for posting your impressions of the EVF and LCD. I'm trying to decide what to buy, so it's great to get first hand feedback from a knowledgeable source.

Stokestack

10-23-2007, 03:13 PM

Does that image in the EVF rendering simulate the color level in the real EVF? Looking at one of the prototypes at NAB last year, I remember being somewhat disappointed. However, I have no experience with high-quality electronic EVFs, and the indoor lighting conditions were poor.

Looking at that image, I think a lack of color was one of the things that bothered me. Why does that image lack color, and does the real EVF image lack it too?

Joel Kaye

10-23-2007, 04:30 PM

Looking at that image, I think a lack of color was one of the things that bothered me. Why does that image lack color, and does the real EVF image lack it too?

You've got to remember the RAW image is a very flat image. That's probably what's currently being sent to the monitor. In the future it might be possible to apply a color look to the raw footage and have it shown in the EVF.

The viewfinder itself is one of the best from all accounts so I'm sure it's capable of pretty decent color rendition. I'm more worried about the ability to tell focus. Focus and Framing are what I need the EVF for. B&W would be fine with me.

chuck colburn

10-23-2007, 05:30 PM

Camera viewfinders are for frame viewing and can be use for focusing if sharp enough. Thus I would prefer a hi-rez black and white image over any type of color one that might compromise resoultion.

Stuart English

10-23-2007, 05:46 PM

Camera viewfinders are for frame viewing and can be use for focusing if sharp enough. Thus I would prefer a hi-rez black and white image over any type of color one that might compromise resoultion.

Maybe I should just say that the RED design difference is that RED-EVF doesn't compromise resolution. There is a monochrome mode if you prefer that (sometimes I do) but its a color on / off choice not a hi / lo resolution choice.

Stuart English

10-23-2007, 05:53 PM

You've got to remember the RAW image is a very flat image. That's probably what's currently being sent to the monitor. In the future it might be possible to apply a color look to the raw footage and have it shown in the EVF.

Actually that isn't what is sent to the RED-EVF. The RED-EVF (and all the monitor ports) are supplied from the RAW data, but the feed is debayered, scaled, white balanced and has a REC 709 video gamma applied. So they are crisp, easy to read and display excellent color. Then "applying a color look" is exactly what it is doing right now. If we adjust R G B gains, saturation or other stuff then we would get looks equivelent to what you can see in REDALERT or REDCINE or the QuickTimes. i.e the same color as these:-

Joel Kaye

10-23-2007, 05:57 PM

That isn't what is sent to the RED-EVF.

Cool. I'm glad to stand corrected. :-) You got me sold.

Steve Gibby

10-24-2007, 07:13 PM

Gibby,

Thanks for posting your impressions of the EVF and LCD. I'm trying to decide what to buy, so it's great to get first hand feedback from a knowledgeable source.

Since I had the opportunity to start using RED #8 way back on August 31, and have also had the chance to be the first owner to do a number of technical tests - 3D, underwater, Birger Canon prototype, ActionCam, B4 adaptor, multiple 2/3" lenses - I've taken the opportunity whenever I've had the time, to post my impressions on RED User. I like to think that if the tables were turned, and you or someone else on RED User, had the same early-use chance I've had, that you'd also share your impressions with everyone here.

It's good karma...glad to help...

Stokestack

10-26-2007, 08:55 PM

The RED-EVF (and all the monitor ports) are supplied from the RAW data, but the feed is debayered, scaled, white balanced and has a REC 709 video gamma applied. So they are crisp, easy to read and display excellent color.

Thanks for the info, Stuart. So are we to infer that the example posted above does NOT represent the color as we'd see it by default in the EVF? Because that image is not naturally colored.

Häakon

10-26-2007, 10:37 PM

Here's some pics of the same rig setup using the LCD rather than the EVF.
I find that even in the "farthest away" position like you have it, the LCD is still much too close when attached with the RED arm to be viewed comfortably. Just my two cents.

Sam Druckerman

10-27-2007, 01:10 AM

I find that even in the "farthest away" position like you have it, the LCD is still much too close when attached with the RED arm to be viewed comfortably. Just my two cents.

Hi Haakon,

Did you see Evin's post & solution?

Here......

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5491

You can mount the LCD on the far end of your rod's with it :-)

Häakon

10-27-2007, 05:33 AM

Did you see Evin's post & solution?

You can mount the LCD on the far end of your rod's with it :-)
I did, there just isn't much space under the lens on the bottom set of rods to use that. Notice how he's got it mounted to the top (which is still much too close in a handheld situation) for this reason. On a tripod, it's great; as a run-and-gun solution, not so much.

To be honest, you can mount the LCD to your rods already just using a universal mount from RED and save yourself $150. The advantage to Evin's option is the quick release - which although I haven't seen function in person - looks like it could be handy. Then again, if the screen is still too close to the operator, it's a moot point. Really what we need is a longer, lightweight arm.

Stuart English

10-27-2007, 05:43 AM

Thanks for the info, Stuart. So are we to infer that the example posted above does NOT represent the color as we'd see it by default in the EVF? Because that image is not naturally colored.

Two comments: The first image I posted is certainly not flat or tinted green. Which was a comment from someone...Second: The three small images I posted are examples of what the EVF can display as color looks at this very moment. We just don't have the save / recall look file infrastructure in place, so at the moment you would not be likely to use that functionality.

Sam Druckerman

10-27-2007, 09:51 AM

I did, there just isn't much space under the lens on the bottom set of rods to use that. Notice how he's got it mounted to the top (which is still much too close in a handheld situation) for this reason. On a tripod, it's great; as a run-and-gun solution, not so much.

To be honest, you can mount the LCD to your rods already just using a universal mount from RED and save yourself $150. The advantage to Evin's option is the quick release - which although I haven't seen function in person - looks like it could be handy. Then again, if the screen is still too close to the operator, it's a moot point. Really what we need is a longer, lightweight arm.

You can use that Z rod mount on the bottom rods too, way out front, in front of everything including the FF, and a RED handle.... We did yesterday for a handheld set up. It was great.

LOL I remember telling Evin.... it's too bad we don't have a camera to post some pics of this set up on the board.

Maybe on a set tomorrow, we can take some snaps.

And yes, a longer light weight arm is a good idea..... and even better, make the connection to the camera and the LCD a quick snap on.

BOT

When I looked through the EVF on RED DAY, It was "LOVE at first Sight". :-)

mick doyle

10-27-2007, 10:13 AM

C.H.Haskell

10-27-2007, 11:49 AM

Ok before I mention my opinion just know that I have never worked with the RED EVF, but I have interacted with one etc and offer my 2 cents.

I feel if you financing a RED package and are on limited budget like myself and had to choose between the two..I would go with just LCD. I know its mainly a Dp choice but many of you are owner operators.

I also felt the EFV was a pretty huge attachment so if keeping a lower profile is a concern of yours then I would also go with LCD. I can manage the 3k for a EVF but I feel I would rather save that money and put it towards an even better Mac Pro set up (a must have IMO)...getting the EVF for when I really know I will need one.

Best

Joel Kaye

10-27-2007, 12:12 PM

I feel if you financing a RED package and are on limited budget like myself and had to choose between the two..I would go with just LCD.

Interesting. Is the LCD with a hood outdoors a workable alternative to the EVF?

C.H.Haskell

10-28-2007, 01:02 PM

I can only presume that its a workable solution Joelnet, given the RED EVF only came out last week so everyone including Pj and Soderbergh etc has been relying on the LCD. (correct me if I am wrong)

From what I also understand the LCD brightness has been improved (via firmware)...add a hood and you have a great outdoor solution (if that suits your style of course). Ever since I started doing this with a Martial monitor I find myself using EFV less and less.

I know some shooters just "Have" to have a EVF...but I am curious to what the RED EVF offers different then the LCD tool set wise?

Andrew Benz

10-28-2007, 02:53 PM

Question for Gabby,

How have you dealt with the ND issue. I see from the photos that you don’t have a matte box and filters and the red body unlike traditional ENG/ EFP cameras has no ND filters on board. I hope to use the camera for documentary work, a lot of shooting from the shoulder. Do you think the ND issues are going to be a big problem if you’re using the camera in an observational style? What other issues do you think see for someone using the camera in this way with either a PL or BL lens?

Thanks for all your insights so far.

Hi Mick,

I'm not Steve Gibby but I feel confident I can answer this since he has been kind enough to pass on the very same info to me.

Steve purchased (bhphotovideo.com) a variety of the circular, threaded, screw on type NDs. Though this is a work around and it takes more time than drop in NDs it is one of our few choices (no internal filter wheel) and certainly requires some forethought before shooting. Hope this helps Mick because I am in the same boat with you.

On the EVF... My main concern has always been my ability to position and adjust the EVF while the camera is on my shoulder. I think we all see those challenges given the set ups we have seen... But there is no need to throw the EVF out as an option if you find this too much to deal with in the field. The answer could be this future product from Element Technica...

Here is a quote from Stephen Pizzo/Element Technica,"We are working on a very configurable EVF mounting system. It will allow pivoting when tilting but can also be quickly locked into place for hand-held work. You can also set the amount of drag so that it stays where you leave it but can be easily re-positioned. It can be extended for work on a geared head and will be compatible with most standard eyepiece levellers. We will likely offer our own leveller as part of the EVF mounting system at some point."

here is a link to that page...http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5332&page=3&highlight=element

Hope this helps answer a few questions here.

Cheers,

Andrew

Rocco Schult

10-28-2007, 04:23 PM

..I feel if you financing a RED package and are on limited budget like myself and had to choose between the two..I would go with just LCD...I can manage the 3k for a EVF but I feel I would rather save that money and put it towards an even better Mac Pro set up (a must have IMO)...getting the EVF for when I really know I will need one.

Hi Haskell,

well, I'd go exactly vice versa (I ordered both in fact). You can buy any LCD with HDMI in and it should work with the REDs out... hopefully. (If not that particular one, maybe the 2nd next) - but you can't buy another EVF. And the EVF is important for work in sunlight, has better User interface I guess (it has the assignable buttons, higher res) and your DP will probably ask for it anyway. I even believe there are 1 or 2 features available only on the EVF, not on the LCD, don't remember which though.
And if you feel, you buy just any smaller mountable LCD for 800$ - its not the same and not so nicely integrated, but the EVF was one part that really made me happy when they announced it.

C.H.Haskell

10-28-2007, 09:27 PM

Steve Gibby

10-29-2007, 07:46 AM

I find that even in the "farthest away" position like you have it, the LCD is still much too close when attached with the RED arm to be viewed comfortably. Just my two cents.

That setup was assembled quickly on location in Jackson Hole without access to my grip kit. I also didn't have a left front RED Cage piece with me. If I had, I would have been able to do a lower mount of the LCD. At the distance my eyes were away from the LCD in those pics, my eyes could easily focus on the image and data in the LCD.

With more time and grip equipment I could have easily set the LCD up for better use - lower and slightly farther away.

I''ve been fully aware of the Element solution that Andrew mentioned in this thread. The guys at Element are friends of mine. I'll definitely test out their solution when it is available.

Steve Gibby

10-29-2007, 07:47 AM

Steve Gibby

10-29-2007, 07:57 AM

Interesting. Is the LCD with a hood outdoors a workable alternative to the EVF?

Yes and no. It can definitely be a workable alternative. The EVF in the pic was a loaner from Stuart English that I shot with for about an hour. I'll get my own EVF shortly. For two months now I've been shooting extensively with RED #8, using the RED LCD for nearly everything. See my "Impressions of RED #8" thread for details. A large portion of that shooting has been outdoors. Yes, IMO the RED LCD performs well everywhere, indoors and outdoors.

That said, the broad range of production genres and sub-genres me and my crews do, requires us to use both an EVF and an LCD. The LCD is crucial for high angle and low angle hand held, when using our ActionCam RED or other stabilizer, POV, etc. The EVF will be used in many other shooting situations. RED has said they intend to enable the simultaneous use of both the EVF and LCD, something that hasn't been enabled yet, but should be in the near future. There will be many times and productions when we will run both the EVF and LCD simultaneously.

Michael Schrengohst

10-29-2007, 07:58 AM

good points Rock...I have always been real excited about the EVF, just saying for those who are tight on budget, I dont see it has a must have to make your movie. By all means if you can afford it then of course the more accessories you have the more RED setups will be available to you. I would like to know more about the exclusive EVF features.

I don't see how anyone could shoot with just the LCD. I think once the EVF
is fully shipping and we get more user reports, it will be a must have.
You could rent most any LCD but you cannot rent just the EVF.

Steve Gibby

10-29-2007, 08:06 AM

Steve purchased (bhphotovideo.com) a variety of the circular, threaded, screw on type NDs. Though this is a work around and it takes more time than drop in NDs it is one of our few choices (no internal filter wheel) and certainly requires some forethought before shooting. Hope this helps Mick because I am in the same boat with you.

Thanks Andrew...that is one of the filter solutions for mobile EFP work that I've mentioned...and I've been using that as one of my solutions for mobile EFP work with RED #8 for two months now, so its not a question of "Will this work?" but rather a statement of "This is a workable solution".

Beyond screw on filters, a lightweight clip-on matte box and drop in filters is the other option. I've also been testing out this option, with good results.

Unless you're in an extremely rapid light changing workflow, indoors to outdoors rapidly, both of the above solutions are fully workable with a minimum of hassle. I've been using those solutions for two months now in extensive mobile EFP and cine-style work with RED #8, so they're not hypothesis, but rather reality.

Steve Gibby

10-29-2007, 08:12 AM

I don't see how anyone could shoot with just the LCD. I think once the EVF
is fully shipping and we get more user reports, it will be a must have.
You could rent most any LCD but you cannot rent just the EVF.

I do. Me and my crews have been shooting vast amounts of cine-style and EFP style production for the past two months using the RED LCD, with an occasional preview or client monitor on stationary projects. Shooting with just the LCD has its workarounds for certain types of shots for sure, but it is certainly workable by open minded and skilled professionals. In my previous post I mentioned that me and my crews will be using both the LCD and EVF continually. Then again, we don't just do narrative cinema, but rather a broad range of cine-style and EFP style production genres. See my "Impressions of RED #8" thread on the main forum for details.