Birger Mounts....update?

[Teague Kennedy]

Just wanted to revitalize the topic and see if someone from Birger would bite. My camera is just around the corner and I'd love a birger mount..... What is available? I guess that whole pre-production pricing thing just went away?

[Joel Kaye]

I guess that whole pre-production pricing thing just went away?

I bet he'll offer it when he gets an order page up. It is little disconcerting that the original order page was supposed to go up on July 6th or so. Hopefully we'll see it soon. I was planning on going with the Birger mount for mine.

[Bill Goehring]

(chanting)

Bir-ger. Bir-ger. Bir-ger. Bir-ger. Bir-ger...

[Joe Carney]

Just a quick question so I understand things...

The lenses I'm currently purchasing for my wifes' Canon Rebel Xti will work with the Birger adaptor? I think they are called EOS lenses, but not sure.

[Michael Hastings]

Just a quick question so I understand things...

The lenses I'm currently purchasing for my wifes' Canon Rebel Xti will work with the Birger adaptor? I think they are called EOS lenses, but not sure.

Yes EOS lenses are what birger was designed for, and the Rebel is good because the sensor is almost exactly the same size as RED so you will get the same depth of field, bokeh, etc. Try to buy some of the better lenses (L series are the best) to get the most out of your RED.

[Andrew M.]

Try to get this one, designed to work specifically with 21MP Canon.
Remember RED is 12 MP and if you really want to get all these pixels working for you, you need very good lenses.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=151&modelid=15670

[Dexter Gregoire]

I concure.
EF 14mm f/2.8L II USM would be my choice, it's new
and
EF 50mm f / 1.2L USM and
EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM makes it around $5000. Just want to make sure of the Mount.

[angendevenir]

14mm are very nice... butfor the aperture???

We can use auto aperture lens on Red... or we have to find this lense with manual aperture?

And for Nikon? We can use auto aperture lenses?

The 85mm at 1.2 are a beautifull lense... But with the conversion 35mm photo: an 21mm, an 75mm and a 130mm

Zeiss 85mm and 50mm are less expensive and better at all aperture(f2 to f22)
Also 35mm are beautifull
25mm average(for a Zeiss ;)
28mm come this year on Nikon and I hope best results that the 25mm
also an 40mm tilt focus

Maybe next years the 18mm and the 21mm(exist on contax)
oh1 15 mm exist also on contax... near 4000$ (too expensive, too wide)

Only the 40mm tilt focus are an new lense

www.photozone.de for see test of many of this lenses

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

the Birger mounts are designed to allow us to change the aperture on "auto aperture" lenses

[angendevenir]

Oh my! Big thing to know that.

nikon mouth make that also?

[Shawn Nelson]

I like the Birger guys, and am really excited about their product. But I wish they'd take a page from Jim's playbook and actually tell us how things are coming along. They must be having some problems to disappear like this without updates or order forms.

[S. Um]

Zeke,

Your wife will love you for spending so much money on her. :innocent:

[Michael Hastings]

I like the Birger guys, and am really excited about their product. But I wish they'd take a page from Jim's playbook and actually tell us how things are coming along. They must be having some problems to disappear like this without updates or order forms.

The new mount might have changed things. From what I know most of the issues were physical things, i.e. the change in connectors from Hirose (the broadcast standard) to LEMO, finalizing the physical mount for molding, etc. and that may have been dramatically altered by the incorporation of the new mount.

[Joel Kaye]

The new mount might have changed things. From what I know most of the issues were physical things, i.e. the change in connectors from Hirose (the broadcast standard) to LEMO, finalizing the physical mount for molding, etc. and that may have been dramatically altered by the incorporation of the new mount.

Maybe. I agree with Shawn though. An update every couple of weeks might be nice. What works, what doesn't. Has Nikon work begun or will it be many months following the Canon... etc.

Right now we're in a weird place if you want to use SLR lenses. RED will probably produce a Nikon mount first, but Nikon lenses focus backwards - which is weird. Birger will produce a Canon mount first but god knows if it's vaporware or not. I've never seen a successful focus test. He could hook it to any 35mm adapter as a proof of concept and post the results anytime.

The birger is the most intriguing product though. If you can use electronics to dial in senstivity that changes over the focus range, switch knob directions, use blue tooth AND take advantage of some Canon stabilization. Wow. That's a cool product.

[Michael Hastings]

\\Birger will produce a Canon mount first but god knows if it's vaporware or not. I've never seen a successful focus test. He could hook it to any 35mm adapter as a proof of concept and post the results anytime.
\

Proof of concept is that it has been working in other markets for several years. I'm not sure if people are aware but the Canon EOS version of the Birger mount is just a RED specific version of the mount they have sold in the industrial/scientific market for several years (the Nikon version is a new product). Main differences are direct mount to RED and the follow focus knob controls instead of handheld or pc control for the industrial product. In other words, the part that makes it hard for another company to make this type of mount is the electronics and software control they have had all along.

I have a pretty strong feeling that the holdup is feeling confident that the production mounts they make will work with the "production" version of RED. I suspect if Birger had put their mount out a month ago they would be sort of screwed now given the recent decision to change the mount (and I imagine RED gave Birger a heads up weeks ago - which would account for Birger's silence since they couldn't say anything due to NDA).

People need to realize that when you manufacture something that uses molded parts, or parts that have to be machined a few hundred at a time to be cost effective, you can't afford to make the final commitment until you are really sure no more last minute changes need to be made. Software changes are easy, hardware changes can get expensive.

I don't have any association with Birger, but we have been extremely interested since the beginning since for our underwater work the Canon EF-S 10-22 has been our primary focus (so to speak) for underwater lenses. Also, I actually had a RED with the Birger physical prototype on it in my hands over a month ago so I know it is not complete BS. I have talked to Erik a couple times and although there were things he couldn't discuss, I can tell you he seemed like a very sharp, pretty straight guy.

[Joel Kaye]

Proof of concept is that it has been working in other markets for several years. I'm not sure if people are aware

No I'm not aware. Post a link to a video of some rack focusing. Sounds like they may need to hire you to be their salesperson and marketing guru 'cause they clearly don't have one... and you're doing as good a job as anyone could. :-)

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Respect Aqua Video, I'm sure you are right.
Did you actually follow focus with the birger mount (turn the birger dial and watch the 10-22 change focus), ditto changing exposure..?
I agree that Erik has always seemed very straight in this forum. So why has he disappeared? Who was the last person to communicate with him and when was that? Anyone at RED care to pitch in??
At this stage, even a post from him saying that he is ok and that they are still intending to make the mounts would be reassuring.
Aquavideo, do you and Gibby still have that prototype?

[jbeale]

My understanding is the markets that Birger has been in before (industrial, scientific areas) deal with point to point focus motion, where the idea is simply "move from focus point A to focus point B as quickly as the motor can move". I believe the only area where slow focus moves (rack focus) are typically used is the cine world. So in a sense the hard part about electronics and software protocols is done, but as far as I know, a significant part (rack focus) remains to be demonstrated.

It's also interesting because the EOS lenses, being designed for still cameras, were never intended for rack focus cine applications, so the Birger folks are entering somewhat unexplored territory there. Not entirely, because EOS cameras do have a continuous-autofocus mode, but if there is a slightly "jittery" focus action, a still camera user might not notice what a motion picture user would. I am also wondering if the EOS lens motors will move in single-unit increments, which you want for a rack focus, or if "stiction" issues force you to move only in short jumps.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

yes, they are designed not to care how they get there but to get you focussed as fast and as silently as possible.
But tis all conjecture.. Erik was really confident months ago that the mount already worked really well wiith canon lenses, and back then he was showing off the follow focus unit

[Joe Carney]

Zeke,

Your wife will love you for spending so much money on her. :innocent:


I can see it now..
But Honey! You can use it too!!

[Michael Hastings]

Sounds like they may need to hire you to be their salesperson and marketing guru 'cause they clearly don't have one... and you're doing as good a job as anyone could. :-)

I'm really just trying to point out some of the issues. As a small manufacturer myself I know where a lot of the problem areas lie and I'm just saying that, given that RED has been making changes on the mount, it may be causing Birger to hold off finalizing as well. Given the uncertainty, as well as NDAs that they surely have with RED, it may just be that it is more appropriate to say nothing until it is clear - however frustrating that may be for all of us.

[angendevenir]

We can change the aperture with the nikon mount of the APS lenses and other auto-aperture lenses ???

[Lauri Kettunen]

It's also interesting because the EOS lenses, being designed for still cameras, were never intended for rack focus cine applications, so the Birger folks are entering somewhat unexplored territory there.

Thinking more precisely, not sure this fully holds water. It is possible to switch EOS-bodies and the EF-lenses to follow a moving object to maximize the precision of focus. And, after years of using EF-lenses with XL-series videocameras, think focusing with RED will not be a problem.

[KnightRule]

Try to buy some of the better lenses (L series are the best) to get the most out of your RED.

According to the test from The Digital Picture.com, the cheaper the lenses seem to out-perform the L-series lens significantly at every aperture.

Here's a link to a comparison of a Canon 50mm f1.8 II ($69.95) vs. Canon 50mm f1.2 L ($1329.00). (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=105&Camera=9&FLI=0&API=4&LensComp=403&CameraComp=9&FLIComp=0&APIComp=6) B&H prices.

[Mark Crabtree]

A lens with at huge maximum stop of 1.2 and great all around performance is a big challenge for lens designers. The idea of a making a 1.2 lens is for optimum use in low light situations. If you intend to use it for brightly lit scenes you will probably not get the same performance as from a slower lens. Slower lenses will have less flare and perhaps even more resolution. But when you want to shoot in low light the 1.2 is just the ticket.

[Mark Pugh]

Weren't the red team supposed to be working in association with Birger as Birger developed these mounts?

There's been no posts in this thread from anyone at Red regarding what's happened to Erik. Maybe no-one knows.

Maybe someone's taken over Erik to sell more of thier own lenses.
Maybe something more benevolent/ constructive is taken place.

If someone knows something, it'd be a bit cruel not to share a hint or two.

[Roberto B]

erik loves holidays.. he's used to post here when he's not in holidays.

[Mark Pugh]

He picked a strange time to take a holiday.
... and no "gone fishing" note on the door.

[angendevenir]

Go on http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/index.html for seen performance of Canon, nikon, tokina, tamron and ZEISS

I dislike the L serie except the 24mm and the 85mm. 24mm are bad on corner, but sometime we need an wide open aperture with deepfield.

[Steve Murray]

Still lenses: I think if you get 3 new lenses of any brand (same mm) and test them you will most likely get 3 different results. Especially wide angle and wide zooms.

I think that one should ignore still lens tests as they are only accurate to that specific lens which was tested.

Perhaps the Cine lenses will be more consistent, they should be, but I think you will find that every lens is unique and you should test your lenses and not go by online "tests".

You may get totally different results, I have.

[PaulClements]

Perhaps the Cine lenses will be more consistent, they should be, but I think you will find that every lens is unique and you should test your lenses and not go by online "tests".

This is what makes Cooke lenses so exceptional and highly regarded. Each lens is exact to another in colour and accuracy. Even Zeiss lenses are not made to such exacting degrees - They are however far more precise lens to lens than still lenses.

When doing lens conversions from still lenses the rehousing usually involves selecting the best optics from many of the same type of lens so that the final rehoused still lens is made up of the best parts with least distortion, CA etc... since each lens differs from one to another - sometimes slightly sometimes severely. This is one of the reason that rehoused lenses can often cost a lot.

Paul

[chuck colburn]

Hi Paul,

Where did you read that companies who rebarrel or rehouse lenses are slecting diiferent groups or singular elements to build new ones with?
I would like to read that article.

thanks,