Great news! A Production Hold.

[Jannard]

We are on a Production Hold. But this time, we think you will appreciate it.

1. We are implementing a new daughter board to the sensor. The result is increased dynamic range and reduced noise (incredible as that may seem) over serial numbers 1-100 with no downside. This improvement affects all frame rates at or below 25fps. This is a major breakthrough for RED and I am sure will be of great benefit to all camera owners.

2. We have developed a new stainless steel PL mount system that is user adjustable, stable and does not use shims. It is as close to a religious experience as a lens mount gets.

3. We are taking time to enable more features and stabilize the firmware. We have a few more bugs than we like with each new build. The firmware should be finished about the same time we execute the new daughter board and PL mount.

We will retrofit all shipped cameras (1-100) with these changes at our expense then begin production again.

We have a production line fully operational that is stocked with parts ready to go as soon as we can implement these improvements. The cameras affected most are 101-200.

We made the decision today to hold production so we have the fewest amount of cameras to retrofit. I do not have a new confirmed schedule, but will post one as soon as we know exactly where we stand. It is most likely that 101-200 will begin shipping November 30th and 201-600 will begin shipping December 10th.

We believe we can make all these changes with this minor schedule impact even though the fire generated ash has contaminated our clean rooms and will take a week to fix. The fires still rage here and ash is everywhere.

We appreciate your patience. These changes and additions will greatly increase the capability and convenience of the RED ONE for all users. This is a perfect example of the RED ONE becoming a "next generation" camera for all our users without any additional cost.

Jim

[Brook Willard]

I'm so excited about the lens mount...

Glad to hear that you guys are safe there.

[Jarred Land]

The lens mount upgrade alone is worth the hold.. its that bad ass.

[JoshBertrand]

Sounds great! If I have to read another thread about collimation and shims my eyes are going to fall out!

I can't believe you are getting MORE dynamic range! That's red-iculous!

[number6]

Hot diggety doG!

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Great too hear, I have no problem waiting for an even sweeter deal. Also glad to hear that the lens mount is beeing improved!

Stay safe in the heat!

[Brook Willard]

Alright, initial wow-factor has passed... how the hell did you guys engineer a shim-free mount? I have some theories... what's the secret?

[Thom Steinhoff]

I, too, was getting very worried about collimation and shims. As much as I want the camera NOW, I have to say I am happy about this hold.

[Rick Darge]

How long will it take you guys to fix up 1-100?

[Jannard]

Just in case you are wondering why our clean rooms are contaminated...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_fire.jpg

[Shawn Nelson]

Fantastic!!! Gosh these sound great. Thanks Jim.

[jbeale]

I look forward to seeing test results from the new and improved system! It is surprising to hear of an improved dynamic range, since I thought the performance was already close to the best you could do with a 12-bit system.

[G.A. Kokes]

Interesting,

Why does the board change only affect frame rates of 25 and lower?

Thanks,
G

[Matthew Rogers]

This must be really important, since Jim bolded the entire post! Sounds like really good upgrades and worth the delay.

Matthew

[Wade McDonald]

Delays happen. No worries.

I'm really glad to hear about the improvements, and appreciate the notice. Stay safe, y'all. We can make do with film for a few more months.

W

[Charles Adams]

Same here, I was concerned about swapping lens mounts.

Jim & Red Team, do the improvements on the PL mount also find their way to the Nikon mount or not related?

I'm also assuming that the Nikon mount, EVF, and Red Drives will also probably start to ship sometime after December 10, correct?

Thanks for the updates!

[Chris Gearhart]

Cool. I see you guys are indeed kicking ash.

[Kenn Michael]

I was beginning to wonder why I hadn't heard anything about setting up my invoice for cam pickup next week! :biggrin:

RED will have to exist in my dreams for just a few more weeks!

Glad everyone is safe from the fires. Sucks about the clean room, but congrats on being able to make an already amazing camera more amazing!

[jbeale]

Why does the board change only affect frame rates of 25 and lower?
I have no idea, and Red may not want to describe all their secrets, but it's fun to speculate. My guess is the new technique is akin to multiple read-outs from the sensor, which takes more time of course, so it will only work at slower frame-rates. I know there is something called "correlated double sampling" which reduces sensor read-out noise. Or maybe a new A/D chip with lower internal noise has recently come on the market, but it has a slower max. clock rate, so they have to fall back to the older chip for > 25 fps.

Regardless of the design details, there is always a trade-off in A/D hardware between speed and precision / noise level. At audio frequencies you can get about 22 bits of precision out of the best "24-bit" converters, whereas at video frequencies (1000 times higher) 14 or 16 bits is the best I've seen advertised, and the last few of those bits may be noise anyway. Even within a given A/D device, when you look at the specs you will often see lower accuracy and/or worse noise performance when it is run at the maximum speed.

[Greg M]

Excellent news Jim, I am very excited about the revised PL mount!!

Hope everyone at Red is safe and your homes are not in harms way.

[Jarred Land]

Same here, I was concerned about swapping lens mounts.

Jim & Red Team, do the improvements on the PL mount also find their way to the Nikon mount or not related?


Thanks for the updates!

yes...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Jim.

Great news.

No problem for any delay.

Keep safe in that fire disaster.

[Andrew M.]

I have no idea, and Red may not want to describe all their secrets, but it's fun to speculate. My guess is the new technique is akin to multiple read-outs from the sensor, which takes more time of course, so it will only work at slower frame-rates. I know there is something called "correlated double sampling" which reduces sensor read-out noise. Or maybe a new A/D chip with lower internal noise has recently come on the market, but it has a slower max. clock rate, so they have to fall back to the older chip for > 25 fps.

You think about this:
http://www.imec.be/esscirc/ESSCIRC2002/presentations/Slides/C04.03.pdf

I rather see two frames taken at different shutter angle equal to two or 4 stops and combined.

[dvpixl]

Jim & Red Team, do the improvements on the PL mount also find their way to the Nikon mount or not related?


yes I had the same question. Shim free means no hassle when changing from Pl to Nikon or any other?

[dvpixl]

yes...


ok...

[I Bloom]

The lens mount upgrade alone is worth the hold...
Tell me about it:turned:

This is all really great news. Keep it up.

IBloom

[Steve Sherrick]

1. We are implementing a new daughter board to the sensor. The result is increased dynamic range and reduced noise (incredible as that may seem) over serial numbers 1-100 with no downside. This improvement affects all frame rates at or below 25fps. This is a major breakthrough for RED and I am sure will be of great benefit to all camera owners.

This is great and the type of thing that I'm willing to hold out for. I continue to be disappointed with other camera systems when it comes to dynamic range and noise. If you can improve on your original design without a huge increase in size of the camera, then I'm happy.


2. We have developed a new stainless steel PL mount system that is user adjustable, stable and does not use shims. It is as close to a religious experience as a lens mount gets.

Also very cool. I was getting concerned about some of the reports about the mount.


3. We are taking time to enable more features and stabilize the firmware. We have a few more bugs than we like with each new build. The firmware should be finished about the same time we execute the new daughter board and PL mount.

Get rid of most of the bugs by Dec 10 and I'm happy.


We will retrofit all shipped cameras (1-100) with these changes at our expense then begin production again.

No disgruntled Red owners, that's a good thing.


We have a production line fully operational that is stocked with parts ready to go as soon as we can implement these improvements. The cameras affected most are 101-200.

We made the decision today to hold production so we have the fewest amount of cameras to retrofit. I do not have a new confirmed schedule, but will post one as soon as we know exactly where we stand. It is most likely that 101-200 will begin shipping November 30th and 201-600 will begin shipping December 10th.

A few more days is no big deal.


We believe we can make all these changes with this minor schedule impact even though the fire generated ash has contaminated our clean rooms and will take a week to fix. The fires still rage here and ash is everywhere.

How bad was the ash damage? Did it affect production cameras? Hope you guys get by with the least amount of damage out there. Those fires look quite intense. Our thoughts are with those who are being put in harm's way.


We appreciate your patience. These changes and additions will greatly increase the capability and convenience of the RED ONE for all users. This is a perfect example of the RED ONE becoming a "next generation" camera for all our users without any additional cost.[/B]

Well, by sweetening the pot with even better features, it makes the wait a bit easier. We just had a baby girl, so we've got our hands full for a while. A small delay on the camera is a minor inconvenience at the moment. Just means I don't get to shoot 4K home movies right away.

Thanks Jim!

Steve

[Ronnie Silos]

new daughter board to the sensor - INCREDIBLE!


new stainless steel PL mount system that is user adjustable, stable and does not use shims - When do you guys sleep???


taking time to enable more features and stabilize the firmware - More time for me to plan my Red projects!


We will retrofit all shipped cameras (1-100) with these changes at our expense - Kindness, commitment, integrity, generosity, honesty, .... Too bad we the farmers between the shells of this world (Han) are the only once experiencing this phenomenon!

Ronnie

[Jeremy Torrie]

Why would anyone looking to buy a digital cinema acquisition system want anything else? It's just stupid how good this package is becoming.

[Nathan Buxton]

first of all, amazing that you will already be retrofitting the old cameras (maybe you shouldnt have rushed them out the door :P) but thats good on you

second, i wish you the best of luck with those fires

[Jason Francois]

Everybody at RED/Oakley is relatively untouched and the camera will be even better.

Sounds like a win/win situation.

Thanks for the update and keep safe.

J.

[Steve Murray]

Great news!

Thank you for your & the entire RED team's most amazing dedication. No other company in this business would ever be so willing to not only perfect their product but to also upgrade it at the same time.

And for no charge.... You guys are doing great things.

Stay safe.

[S. Um]

Interesting,

Why does the board change only affect frame rates of 25 and lower?

Thanks,
G

I'm curious about the video improvements, too. Would there be a noticeable difference if you intercut low and high frame rate footage? Any chance of moving that threshold up to 30fps?

[luis bustamante]

Great news, even though this sets us back 4 more weeks, we fully understand and support your decision.

Stay out of the fire!

Warm regards from Mexico,

[gaoptimize]

Interesting,

Why does the board change only affect frame rates of 25 and lower?

Thanks,
G

My guess: They are sampling at 3X the frame rate, and varying the pre-amplification every 3rd frame, and using the lower amplification sample preferentially for the shadows (if more than black) and the higher amplification sample for the highlights (if less than white) and then registering them spatially to the center frame at the nominal pre-amplification.

This could potentially both reduce noise by temporal (pre-amplification adjusted) median filtering and increase the dynamic range. If they have a sufficiently powerful FPGA or DSP, it is a trick I would try.

-Tom

[MARNAR]

the smoke is so bad i quit smoking and now just breathe in the air by oakley factory

[IAN SUN]

Thanks Jim, those are improvements I can certainly wait for.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Just in case you are wondering why our clean rooms are contaminated...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_fire.jpg

Hope all red team will be fine away from fires.
What i like in photo is RED BUILDING is'nt ? it ?
if yes . i would like to say its Amazing DAZZLING building like REDCAMERA
it holds a creative people with very sense of art.:w00t:

[Rocco Schult]

don't know how you manage that while the world seems to burn around you.
BUT: great achievement. And seems there's a lot of stuff going on behind the curtain we didn't expect.
Skoal!

[PaulClements]

The adjustable mounts sound like an excellent addition. I look forward to seeing the improvements in dynamic range and reduced noise also.

Thanks as usual for the update.

Paul

[Karl H]

This is good news to me.

When compared to other HD cam's the noise level of Red at high ISO's is already very good. Compared to high end DLSR's however Red is a bit more noisy. So I think this is really good news. I don't know how much of an increase (or more accurately, reduction) we can expect, but I'm happy to wait a few extra weeks to find out.

Red are newcomers to the digital arena, so I think it's expected that they will learn, develop and change hardware/software on a more frequent scale. Someone like Canon have spent years designing sensors and optimizing them. I suspect in 6 months the Red team will find many other ways to improve picture quality, but you have to set the production line rolling at some point.

A 2 week delay is a non issue if it's a significant advancement to the image.

Any word that Birger will follow your design with their Canon Mount (maybe this is why they have been quiet?)

[Stephen Williams]

yes I had the same question. Shim free means no hassle when changing from Pl to Nikon or any other?

Hi,

Remember with or without shims the FFD has to be set within +/- 5 microns.

Stephen

[Mike Zinner]

Nice! I was a bit worried about the mount situation.

[Michael Hastings]

Any word that Birger will follow your design with their Canon Mount (maybe this is why they have been quiet?)

Will birger mount use same adjustment system?

Any chance you could give us more info on how it works? Is it like the P&S mount system or did you buy/license the P&S?

Would be nice since they already have all of these mounts available:

18431 PL-Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
18384 Panavision Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
18381 Nikon Moun P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
18382 Canon EF Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
22646 Canon FD Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
18383 Zeiss Contax Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
20506 BNC-R Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
18380 Leica R Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
22600 B4 Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System
22605 C-Mount P+S Technik Interchangeable Mount System

http://www.pstechnik.de/en/optics-ims.php

[Andrew Benz]

Wait a second... I have to wait another a week or two for a camera that I have "officially" waited for 13 months so...
a. the PL mount can be greatly improved for stability, user adjustability, and swapping mounts in the field.
b. new and improved daughter board to the sensor that increases dynamic range and reduced noise for all frame rates at or below 25fps.
c. more time to further enable, perfect and stabilize the firmware.
d. all this at no additional cost to the customer AND cameras 1-100 will be retro fitted at the expense of RED.

...And all this while the flames of hell are licking at your collective soles (feet that is say) and every other "cinematography" forum or list is trying to find new ways to skewer RED and paint all of it's customers as jackleg funksticks. Now, not that I give two shits, but it begs the question -How can anyone have such a visceral and verbal hatred of RED? (don't give me the bullshit about "the aggressive marketing"--- It takes serious man to pick up a bat for the first time and point where things are headed in any industry... Why the mock indignation when he cracks it out of the park and MAKES it so for everyone who wants to buy or rent his system?

It will be very interesting how this gets turned around by the supposed professionals that should know better on the "superior" forums.

Andrew "at least I do not talk out of both sides of my mouth depending on the forum" Benz

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Jim and RED staff...

doing this at no additional cost... wow.
IF there would be any sceptics still out there, they can't say anything about customer service!
I've emailed this thread to some other non-RED interested people (don't get me wrong, they are non-camera interested), just to show what a REAL company is that's COMPLETELY to the service of their customers, and delivering the best possible product...

Can't almost believe the genorousity of you guys... (I know I probably spelled that wrong...)

[Michael Hastings]

but it begs the question -How can anyone have such a visceral and verbal hatred of RED? Benz

They are just jealous that they don't have a reservation so can't get one for six months.

[I Bloom]

Wait a second... I have to wait another a week or two for a camera that I have "officially" waited for 13 months so...
a. the PL mount can be greatly improved for stability, user adjustability, and swapping mounts in the field.
b. new and improved daughter board to the sensor that increases dynamic range and reduced noise for all frame rates at or below 25fps.
c. more time to further enable, perfect and stabilize the firmware.
d. all this at no additional cost to the customer AND cameras 1-100 will be retro fitted at the expense of RED.

...And all this while the flames of hell are licking at your collective soles (feet that is say) and every other "cinematography" forum or list is trying to find new ways to skewer RED and paint all of it's customers as jackleg funksticks. Now, not that I give two shits, but it begs the question -How can anyone have such a visceral and verbal hatred of RED? (don't give me the bullshit about "the aggressive marketing"--- It takes serious man to pick up a bat for the first time and point where things are headed in any industry... Why the mock indignation when he cracks it out of the park and MAKES it so for everyone who wants to buy or rent his system?

It will be very interesting how this gets turned around by the supposed professionals that should know better on the "superior" forums.

Andrew "at least I do not talk out of both sides of my mouth depending on the forum" Benz

Just think about it in comparison to other companies. With RED a problem was identified less than one week ago. A solution has been implemented and set into motion.

All I can say is Bravo!

IBloom

[Harmonica]

Any word that Birger will follow your design with their Canon Mount (maybe this is why they have been quiet?)

Echo that for the Nikon Birger (mmmm, Nikon Birgers). Swapping mounts will still be a pain if the Birger is a weak link in the chain...

Fantastic news on the delay! I hope there's another major delay the week before my Red ships: a new configuration to enable 1000fps and a new, submersible body! :)

[Phil Becque]

Well I'm relieved to hear that all the RED folk are OK - phew - the pictures we're seeing can't be nearly as scary as looking outside the back of the RED factory!! Yikes!! We'll be sending you all 'protective forces' from the Becque household tonight when we say our evening prayers.

When you see so many people losing all they possess you can't help but wonder about the symbolic nature of a home on fire; one ancient source is the ‘Parable of the Burning House’, which appears in The Lotus Sutra, an instructional text based on the teachings of Buddha, who lived roughly 2,500 years ago. The setting for this parable is a rich man’s home which is engulfed by flames, while the wealthy father’s tiny sons play inside, unaware that the house is burning. Even when the father warns them, they are unable to understand what danger they’re in. The father must invent ‘expedient means’ to rescue them; he tells them that wonderful toys – goat, deer and ox carts – are beyond the gates. Each son, ‘emboldened in his heart’, rushes outside to safety. The Buddha goes on to say that

There is no safety in the threefold world;
it is like a burning house […]
constantly beset with griefs and pains
of birth, old age, sickness and death,
which are like the fires raging without cease.[2]

Living itself is the inferno: all mortals are trapped in the conflagration of themselves, and ignorant of how they burn. Our attachments to worldly things are the cause of much of our suffering.

On a personal note, I've direct experience of opening the door to my kitchen to find it filled with acrid smoke. We all got out of the house, phoned the fire department and sat in the car (it was XMAS night!) and wondered what would be left of house by the time the firemen had done their thing.

I remember thinking - we are all safe and unharmed that's all that's important - if we loose the house - so be it - we'll find somewhere else to live. In the end it was just a faulty dishwasher - so it was just a mild inconvenience. I'm as attached to my new Jag as the next man - but I did learn that sometimes "you just have to be prepared to let it go"

All the best, Phil

[I Bloom]

It would also be nice if there was a built in safety clip for the RED mount, in order to avoid problems with vibration loosening the mount.

http://www.cinematography.net/Pages%20DW/ArriPLMountSafety.htm

IBloom

[Michael Hastings]

.... I hope there's another major delay the week before my Red ships: ... a new, submersible body! :)

Hey that's my job!




PS

Any response to post #44:

Will birger mount use same adjustment system?

Any chance you could give us more info on how it works? Is it like the P+S mount system or did you buy/license the P+S?

[TimPipher]

Hope all red team will be fine away from fires.
What i like in photo is RED BUILDING is'nt ? it ?
if yes . i would like to say its Amazing DAZZLING building like REDCAMERA
it holds a creative people with very sense of art.:w00t:

Is this the RED building? If it is -- Wow. I always pictured the RED building as a little garage-type structure.

[Michael Hastings]

Is this the RED building? If it is -- Wow. I always pictured the RED building as a little garage-type structure.

I think Jim said in another post that that is the Oakley building.

[Tom Lowe]

Thanks for the update, Jim. Seems like the right decision for sure.

That fire pic you posted was shocking!

[Steve Gibby]

Is this the RED building? If it is -- Wow. I always pictured the RED building as a little garage-type structure.

Its the Oakley building, which is about 1/2 mile from the RED building. The RED building is smaller, with a customary business park design.

[Steve Gibby]

Great news RED!

I support the delay and upgrades 100%...much appreciated. Those are excellent upgrades to a camera that already kicks ass! The ass-kickin' factor will go even higher now...

Thanks guys...

[Graeme Nattress]

That's Oakley. RED is just down the road and round the corner. It's scary to see such places as you've been to visit them with all the ash, smoke and fire.

Graeme

[mdo]

We have developed a new stainless steel PL mount system that is user adjustable, stable and does not use shims. It is as close to a religious experience as a lens mount gets.

Another patent, perhaps?

Ref:


We have a few patents for the group to get by...

[Harmonica]

Hey that's my job!

Well, lenses will still need some sort of submersible enclosure, right? :)

[Jannard]

It would also be nice if there was a built in safety clip for the RED mount, in order to avoid problems with vibration loosening the mount.

http://www.cinematography.net/Pages%20DW/ArriPLMountSafety.htm

IBloom

Fixed with the new mount.

Jim

[Michael Schrengohst]

My new favorite saying:
"jackleg funksticks"

I thought Jim sold Oakley?

[Andrew Benz]

Just think about it in comparison to other companies. With RED a problem was identified less than one week ago. A solution has been implemented and set into motion.

All I can say is Bravo!

IBloom

Oh absolutely Ian... actually I was going to bring up 2 camera companys w/ examples but decided not to go there... it just does not seem sporting.

I have not even paid for my camera yet and it gets better every day. How the hell does that happen? I have paid for a few other camera systems and have had no such luck in getting minor things fixed for free (that was later in the first revision or two). I was even told that was the price that I payed for being one of the first... These actions by the RED team really go beyond anything that I have ever experienced before personally or professionally... it is too stunning for silence. :wink:

Ian on a side note thank you for your redwiki work and I really like your site/reel.--- Cheers - Andrew


My new favorite saying:
"jackleg funksticks"


Thanks RED Guy, please use it! I am full of I am full of insane colloquialisms. My sense of humor has served me well in the USAF and on many a set.:tongue:

I love odd word combinations like "funkstick" and "firewallet".:umm: :wink:

Cheers RED Guy,

Andrew

ps- Jackleg is a real word: jackleg |'jak,leg| noun informal an incompetent, unskillful, or dishonest person : [as adj. ] a jackleg carpenter.

You have to get a little more creative with funkstick...

[jbeale]

"jackleg funksticks" sounds to me like poor quality tripod. I have a few of those.

Oakley was sold, but maybe Red rents some space in their cleanrooms?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Obligatory statement:

Yay!!!! The new mount sounds badass.


paint all of it's customers as jackleg funksticks.

Heh. I should put that on a T-shirt.

"Proud to be jackleg funkstick #1110" :usd:

[Dexter Gregoire]

I'm happy with this delay. Any possible way when you are ready to start shipping to speed up production to about 600 units a month? There must be people looking for work out there in Cali.

[David Cubbage]

I am simply amazed how quick Jim and the Red team jump on problems and solve them as they surface. As an engineer, I can appreciate the manufacturing implications of producing a new adjustable PL mount in stainless steel; you have to admire the resolve of Red. And to top it all, a new board as well; after only 100 cameras in the field. Noise, what noise?
No wonder we become "fanboys", we can't help it when we get treated so well by Red.

Red is a dream to us; but a nightmare to others!

David

[Andrew Benz]

Obligatory statement:

Yay!!!! The new mount sounds badass.



Heh. I should put that on a T-shirt.

"Proud to be jackleg funkstick #1110" :usd:

LMAO. All it needs is a RED Buzzsaw emblem!:watsup:

Damn, Jeff... Now, I want one with my number on it! What a polite way to give the haters a middle finger.:bleh:

Cheers,

Andrew

[Graeme Nattress]

I appreciate that Jim, finally you realized that it has lack of dynamic range..... Take your time on improving, I sure don't want mine 'till everything are taken care. How about the heating issues?

Every camera under the sun has "lack of dynamic range". We've just been able to improve DR still further under certain conditions, and are putting a board in the camera to handle that. The DR of the camera as it is now is very respectable - you've seen the threads on measuring it, so no need to repeat that here.

Heating issues have not been around since we found that the temperature sensor was giving way too early a warning....

Graeme

[Casey Green]

Thanks for the update, Jim. Sounds well worth the wait. Also, good to hear you are all keeping safe.

One question:

Will these changes be implemented in time for the re-scheduled Nov. LART?

[Trevor Meier]

I'm #182.... and now one week before beginning shipping, another one-month delay... announced via the boards, with (still) no personal communication from RED.

I'm happy to get new features in the end but RED's lack of communication f's up my next three months. I had planned some showcases for the camera alongside what I'm doing... an interview with a nation's President, a personal short, a trip to Africa, a DI and filmout, demoing the footage for DP's in a grading theatre, and some NDA-covered projects... and let's not mention the bad timing for buzz or rental income for us earlier numbers.

I willingly signed up for a 'flexible' development schedule. I even planned 6-months of flex time into RED's original release dates... but that wasn't enough. And all I get from RED is a quick reply from Kelly saying "we'll let you know in a week." That was three weeks ago.

If you just hang out on this board, you get plenty of news. But anybody trying to do real work is getting shafted by RED's lack of communication.

I'm pissed... not by the new features or even really the delay, but by RED's ineffectiveness at communicating basic information to paying, working customers.

[Jiri Bakala]

Hey Trevor, calm down... Red is a new product and anybody who signed in has to be prepared for major changes and delays. Heck, it might have not even happen at all... Now, they have a major fire burning right behind their bulding, which could have (and still might) impact the delivery schedule even further. I am surprised that it hasn't yet. I wouldn't plan to use the camera until it's in my hands - and you should do the same.

Not to mention that they advertise that all the time:
"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."

[Charles Adams]

Trevor, isn't checking this forum easier or just as easy as checking an email account?

Jim and Red have been all over these boards with comments and announcements. Very easy to find latest updates and takes the same amount of time to check your email. You don't have to stick around or read any more posts than you need to. Just find those started by Jannard which are always at the top and have the most views.

Second, why would you schedule a camera that you do not yet have? Even though there is a shipping schedule, it was clearly and frequently said that things will slip and move and change. This is like telling a movie producer that you have Al Pacino on board with a script you wrote and will be ready to shoot when in fact you haven't even spoken to Mr. Pacino yet. Dangerous.

We all want our cameras - my colleague has a much earlier number than yours, in fact so close after the 100 mark it hurts - but unless I'm mistaken we only put down $1,000 for a deposit, for a right to reserve this camera. I would be more upset if we paid the full $17,500 amount plus accessories but we didn't.

You may request a refund plus interest at any time.

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

I'm not Trevor, but:


Trevor, isn't checking this forum easier or just as easy as checking an email account?
No. Not at all. An e-mail account can be synced to a personal handheld device, Outlook, or other mail tools, and is often checked by professionals during the day for all of their business purposes. To expect busy professionals to surf the web, seeking out information that should be coming to them directly is, I have to agree, a little absurd.


Jim and Red have been all over these boards with comments and announcements.
The operative word often being "all over". Jim's gotten better about creating a new thread for major announcements, but there's still often important information in unassuming threads, buried among the responses.


Very easy to find latest updates and takes the same amount of time to check your email.
As I mentioned above, the difference is that checking one's e-mail is something you would be doing ANYWAY. To be expected to check in on this site daily or even several times daily to find out information that should be sent out via mailing list (which they do have, I've gotten messages through it and been glad for them), that's a little unrealistic.


Second, why would you schedule a camera that you do not yet have? Even though there is a shipping schedule, it was clearly and frequently said that things will slip and move and change. This is like telling a movie producer that you have Al Pacino on board with a script you wrote and will be ready to shoot when in fact you haven't even spoken to Mr. Pacino yet. Dangerous.
But in the context of your analogy, he HAS spoken to Mr. Pacino, and Mr. Pacino signed a letter of intent and was ready to roll...then rescheduled...then rescheduled. Then rescheduled again.

And that's not even Trevor's beef, because Mr. Pacino has had perfectly good reasons to reschedule, and Mr. Pacino is still the best for the role. Trevor's beef is that Mr. Pacino has seen fit to announce his rescheduling in Variety, the Hollywood Reporter, and his personal blog, but not to drop Trevor a direct e-mail letting him know that he's said anything at all, let alone what he's been saying.


We all want our cameras - my colleague has a much earlier number than yours, in fact so close after the 100 mark it hurts - but unless I'm mistaken we only put down $1,000 for a deposit, for a right to reserve this camera. I would be more upset if we paid the full $17,500 amount plus accessories but we didn't.

You may request a refund plus interest at any time.
Don't hold up a straw man over this. We all want the camera, and he's not saying that the delays aren't acceptable or that the upgrades aren't beneficial. His objection is merely that important notices like this are posted to Reduser.net (many members of which aren't even reservation holders) and not to a mailing list that already exists (many members of which probably don't post here).

RED's policy of open and honest communication with the public is great, but to uphold that at the expense of your paying customers, by posting on a message board and not alerting the reservation holders directly, well, it's a little disrespectful. Because even if the deposit was only $1000, that's $1000 more than some of the people here were willing (or able) to wager, and for that kind of faith you'd think they at least deserve a small heads-up.

It wouldn't take that much more effort for someone to at least send out an e-mail saying there's an "important announcement" with a link to the thread. They've done it before.

I don't personally have a problem with the delays either, and I check Reduser fairly regularly so it's not that bad for me. But I can understand Trevor's frustration.

[Alexander Nikishin]

............. :waaa:

All I can say.

[Jannard]

I'm #182.... and now one week before beginning shipping, another one-month delay... announced via the boards, with (still) no personal communication from RED.

I'm happy to get new features in the end but RED's lack of communication f's up my next three months. I had planned some showcases for the camera alongside what I'm doing... an interview with a nation's President, a personal short, a trip to Africa, a DI and filmout, demoing the footage for DP's in a grading theatre, and some NDA-covered projects... and let's not mention the bad timing for buzz or rental income for us earlier numbers.

I willingly signed up for a 'flexible' development schedule. I even planned 6-months of flex time into RED's original release dates... but that wasn't enough. And all I get from RED is a quick reply from Kelly saying "we'll let you know in a week." That was three weeks ago.

If you just hang out on this board, you get plenty of news. But anybody trying to do real work is getting shafted by RED's lack of communication.

I'm pissed... not by the new features or even really the delay, but by RED's ineffectiveness at communicating basic information to paying, working customers.

I would be very happy to send you back your deposit with interest. Just let me know.

What part of "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." did you not understand? The decision was made today. I posted today. You responded today. Seems like effective communication to me?

Jim

[number6]

I would be very happy to send you back your deposit with interest. Just let me know.


Jim

Sounds like a man holding a ROYAL FLUSH! I'M sure not going to call.

[Craig Bowman]

Anyone in Canada should be thanking their lucky stars for these delays. Since the first one started back in May our dollar has risen more than ten cents and as of today was sitting above $1.03 U.S.

[Darren Orange]

The decision was made today. I posted today. You responded today. Seems like effective communication to me?

Agreed Jim!

[Charles Adams]

DorkmanScott, you've raised some excellent points. However, please consider my responses below:


No. Not at all. An e-mail account can be synced to a personal handheld device, Outlook, or other mail tools, and is often checked by professionals during the day for all of their business purposes. To expect busy professionals to surf the web, seeking out information that should be coming to them directly is, I have to agree, a little absurd.

No one is expecting this of anyone. But because we have only placed a reservation on this camera - and not actually purchased it for the full amount - to what extent is the manufacturer, Red, responsible to those who have placed a reservation? True, the camera has been a long time coming. True, we put some money down. But they have been open and frank from the beginning.

Is Red expected to handhold everyone? Does Sony tell you what their plans are a year from now? I would understand if we purchased the camera and we received bad service, but we have not purchased and we have not received bad service. In my opinion we're getting excellent service so far.


The operative word often being "all over". Jim's gotten better about creating a new thread for major announcements, but there's still often important information in unassuming threads, buried among the responses.

And important information for other products are frequently buried in manuals, in online tutorials, and on other websites. Sorry, but getting information is not always easy. You reserve a cutting edge camera from a company that has never produced a camera before, then get mad when information is not always easily available for this new technology?


As I mentioned above, the difference is that checking one's e-mail is something you would be doing ANYWAY. To be expected to check in on this site daily or even several times daily to find out information that should be sent out via mailing list (which they do have, I've gotten messages through it and been glad for them), that's a little unrealistic.

I agree with you here in some respects. Perhaps Red could have one of their customer sales representatives mail out to the reservation holders any major announcements like this one about the hold.

But you have to admit this is a new business model that Red is working with in the sense that they have been so open to communicate on a forum. And truthfully, it takes two minutes. Two minutes. Pull up Red in browser, check Red One. Any posts by Jannard? Nope? Move on.


But in the context of your analogy, he HAS spoken to Mr. Pacino, and Mr. Pacino signed a letter of intent and was ready to roll...then rescheduled...then rescheduled. Then rescheduled again.

And that's not even Trevor's beef, because Mr. Pacino has had perfectly good reasons to reschedule, and Mr. Pacino is still the best for the role. Trevor's beef is that Mr. Pacino has seen fit to announce his rescheduling in Variety, the Hollywood Reporter, and his personal blog, but not to drop Trevor a direct e-mail letting him know that he's said anything at all, let alone what he's been saying.

A-ha! But Mr. Pacino did not actually sign anything, and in this game, without that signature, then it is fair game. What Mr. Pacino did say was that "things change" and that he was interested but that he would have to see about his schedule. He would love to go to work for you but he only has a tentative date, which he has said so from the very beginning.

And as far as rescheduling via the trades, this is not true. Al Pacino has an agent. The agent talks on behalf of Mr. Pacino. Red has an agent. Reduser is Red's agent. These Reduser forums speak on behalf of Red and even better: unlike trades, they respond, and respond quickly. Check out Jannard's post above! Minutes after Trevor's...


Don't hold up a straw man over this. We all want the camera, and he's not saying that the delays aren't acceptable or that the upgrades aren't beneficial. His objection is merely that important notices like this are posted to Reduser.net (many members of which aren't even reservation holders) and not to a mailing list that already exists (many members of which probably don't post here).

RED's policy of open and honest communication with the public is great, but to uphold that at the expense of your paying customers, by posting on a message board and not alerting the reservation holders directly, well, it's a little disrespectful. Because even if the deposit was only $1000, that's $1000 more than some of the people here were willing (or able) to wager, and for that kind of faith you'd think they at least deserve a small heads-up.

It wouldn't take that much more effort for someone to at least send out an e-mail saying there's an "important announcement" with a link to the thread. They've done it before.

I don't personally have a problem with the delays either, and I check Reduser fairly regularly so it's not that bad for me. But I can understand Trevor's frustration.

I see your point. But only to a certain degree. I still think anyone who is unhappy should go buy a Sony instead then.

[Gabriel C.]

Jim,

I know you hate the delays too, but it does mess us up, even though we factor in the catch phrase. We just want your cinema altering product so dang bad! I'm not siding with Trevor, but I think he just wanted an email, and even if he's just here to vent, a little more personal communication for the people that will be affected wouldn't be a bad thing. I love getting emails from you guys :)

[Charles Adams]

Yeah, I can see how a combination email/forum route would work best as a way to bridge the divide of old/new:

Perhaps send email to reservation holders regarding major announcements, and Reduser forum for announcements and everything else.

Although, personally, I don't need an email and I think that to send too many emails would be too much coddling. Reduser is fine by me :biggrin:

[ChristopherKenworthy]

I would be very happy to send you back your deposit with interest. Just let me know.

What part of "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." did you not understand? The decision was made today. I posted today. You responded today. Seems like effective communication to me?

Jim

If he does, can I have his camera? (Always worth a try. We're shooting a feature in March. Two cameras are ordered, but it would be bliss to get one earlier than planned.)

[Mark L. Pederson]

Great stuff guys!!

ELVIS (#0006) and BOND (#0007) are looking forward to surgery.

Please stay safe - can't be fun breathing that air -

[Jannard]

Jim,

I know you hate the delays too, but it does mess us up, even though we factor in the catch phrase. We just want your cinema altering product so dang bad! I'm not siding with Trevor, but I think he just wanted an email, and even if he's just here to vent, a little more personal communication for the people that will be affected wouldn't be a bad thing. I love getting emails from you guys :)

We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim

[Jiri Bakala]

Did anyone notice that there are some - FIRES in California? This nickel and diming of emails or no emails is at this point really silly. Be glad that Jim made the announcement here... I would understand if he didn't and we just found in a week or so when (hopefully) everything will be back to a more normal state.

[Noah Kadner]

All that said, a specific "Red Official Communiques" or whatever forum that is read-only for major announcements and changes to the production schedule would be much appreciated.

[Jason Francois]

Can't please everybody apparently.

I say let some go un-pleased then and point out the door just for good measure. :)

I've been involved with a broad range of people and successful business folks and I've never seen a company communicate on the level that Jim does. I just can't wrap my mind around people complaining about lack of info and such.

Communication by it's nature is never perfect, but RED is doing an amazing job.

[Steve Gibby]

I've been involved with a broad range of people and successful business folks and I've never seen a company communicate on the level that Jim does. I just can't wrap my mind around people complaining about lack of info and such.

Communication by it's nature is never perfect, but RED is doing an amazing job.

Well said...I'll second that.

[damonbots]

My DSL/e-mail service has been sporadic with these Santa Ana's. Would it be too much for me to ask for updates by messenger pigeon? I'll leave my window open tonight just in case.

[Jason Francois]

Would it be too much for me to ask for updates by messenger pigeon? I'll leave my window open tonight just in case.

LMFAO!!!!! I just about swallowed my tongue.

[number6]

There are penguins in Antarctica who are going to bed hungry tonight and we are so self-absorbed that we complain about rot getting another *@$5@{&* email. No wonder penguins hate us.

[Michael Schrengohst]

This is why I HAVE NOT scheduled anything with anyone....
Why *uck yourself? Wait till you get the bloody camera
in-hand before becoming the next Stanley Kubrick!!

[Brian Ferguson]

My DSL/e-mail service has been sporadic with these Santa Ana's. Would it be too much for me to ask for updates by messenger pigeon? I'll leave my window open tonight just in case.

I was thinking about one of those owls from "Harry Potter" be a cool way to get mail.

[Jason Francois]

I was thinking about one of those owls from "Harry Potter" be a cool way to get mail.

I've got three of them, but they're unreliable. Bad eyesight or something.

[damonbots]

I was thinking about one of those owls from "Harry Potter" be a cool way to get mail.

Briferg,

I stepped out on the patio to have a smoke and I shit you not, a white owl flew over! Man, you guys are good!
It's pretty sad when my cigar smoke is cleaner than the air outside. It's been a devastating week for SoCal. Hope y'all are okay out there.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

We are on a Production Hold. But this time, we think you will appreciate it.

1. We are implementing a new daughter board to the sensor.

2. We have developed a new stainless steel PL mount system that is user adjustable, stable and does not use shims.

Jim

Just woke up and this good news: thanks for the update: FFD is as important as increasing the picture quality. The new PL mount is a MAJOR UPDATE if it realy works and let us control the FFD. Does angle shiming also can be controlled with the new mount? Hmm, that would be kind of magic. My RED 222 starts to be a perfect christmas present.

[Philip Powell]

The delay is totally cool with me. Seems totally worth it. And this is NOT a complaint, just a question. But as someone else asked, is the 25FPS is that an absolute ceiling rate? No chance for 29.97? It works great for PAL, but for our purposes, we will be delievering to NTSC often and while we can introduce pull down, it would be great if we didn't have to.

[Desert Rune]

the delay is cool with me too! :) Please keep adding new features as I can't wait to pick mine up in 2011.

[I Bloom]

Ian on a side note thank you for your redwiki work and I really like your site/reel.--- Cheers - Andrew


Much appreciated. That short that opens the reel just won a festival today so I'm feeling very proud ;)

[Martin Ludwig]

We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim

We didn´t got an email... maybe it was burned on the way out of the Red Office

[Martin Ludwig]

I would be very happy to send you back your deposit with interest. Just let me know.

What part of "Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..." did you not understand? The decision was made today. I posted today. You responded today. Seems like effective communication to me?

Jim
No Jim, I think this is not very fair - Trevor Meier is saying what many customers are thinking. The communication is not really effective. For example: there is a sticky post from zakaree saying - "Red will contact every customer 30days in advance" - this doesn´t happen - we know why. But maybe it would be helpful to correct this post. The problem is for some people (including me) that they are not able to be on the board too much time. I do it in the night, when the kids are in bed and all other is done.
I am sure most people have fully understanding about your policiy (me too) and are willing to wait to have a better camera.
But they all love better information - maybe a board with all announcements from Red, possible to read without scrolling and searching the board.
Most future RED user want to do business with the camera - and have own interests they have to discuss with their own customers. This is sometimes silly, if they know more because they have more time to watch the forum.
In this case we are in discussion with a production company, which was planning to shoot with a dutch Red from 6th novembre. A second camera was planned to come from us (to be delivered at 30th octobre). Two days ago we decide to cancel our offer to rent 2 RED´s - I had a big time wasting discussion with the production - at the end I was informed from the assistent that there is a production hold. I would love to know this earlier.

Nevertheless - we are drying all tears today - cross the fingers for the winds to change so the fire can go back to the desert.

[Dale Launer]

Sounds great. Would love a more reassuring lens mount. And you can't have enough dynamic range . Is this something you can talk about? Will you be able to turn it on and turn it off? Is this a frame averaging kinda deal?

Is there a rough idea when this would take happen? And how long the turnaround will be?

[RivaiC]

Honestly, i wouldn't dare to make promise to rent if i'm on your side. It's management. You still have to do trial and error after u get your camera. And i think it's not fair to fully blame on RED too. You know for the fact that RED is on progress in making changes. I don't mean anything, i just think you don't have "flaw plan" inside the plan.

To RED, i think it's a good idea for customers to have their own member access page to track on their schedule or checking on latest announcement, so that no more complaint like didn't get an email. I think this is something a must to do.

[Rick Darge]

This will be better for taxes the way I see it.

[Jesse Rosten]

I didn't get the email either. Could you possibly resend? Thanks.

[Sergi O Maudet]

We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim
Hi Jim,

I think there's something wrong in your email. We are holders of some reservations, including 166 & 167 and we did NOT receive any emails from red.

I somehow agree with Trevor. Why don't you email to reservation holders everytime you do an important post?

We cannot be all day looking for posts in a forum. Maybe you could put them in red.com as important notices to customers.

This forum is great if you have time to read it every day, but lots of us simply can't. We are a rental company, we of course haven't planned any shooting and we won't till we actually touch the cameras, made our own tests and are sure we are ready to support our customers, but we need to have detailed information of what's going on.

It wouldn't be that hard to email important notices.

Our company is so happy with the information we are receiving about the camera and we would wait another year if necessary.

We have lots of stocks from Sony and Panasonic. I am wondering, do all the people that is complaining about delays and bugs have ever pre-ordered from one of the big names? They always delay, they usually have bugs, some of them huge and sometimes they don't even tell you, you just find them and when you go to the support site, then you see their official bulletin stating there's a bug in the cameras.

[Jeff Coatney]

Considering the utter chaos these fires have created, I think its extraordinary that RED team held an engineering meeting, decided to place a hold on production to implement improvements, began the task of restoring the clean rooms, and informed everyone of these updates and all in one day. I'm impressed. If you've only seen the news coverage, you have no idea how these fires have impacted us out here, the fact that they keep toiling under a dark cloud (literally) to get these cameras out should be celebrated.

[Mark Mannschreck]

We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim

Whoa Jim... post 999.

Upside down that's...ummm... nevermind.

Sabbath RULES!

[Peter McCully]

Well, I can't speak for other reservees, but I am really amazed by the development of the camera. It's a bit like ordering a one-off piece of specialised, custom built scientific instrumentation and getting constant updates from the design team as they improve it and hone it's abilities. It's a bit like being NASA waiting for a new piece of the ISS to be delivered - wait a second, that was a bad analogy, it's way better than that!
But a few years ago I can remember thinking about what would be my ideal moving picture camera and what features it would have. Now, I can witness it's birth as I await the delivery of my unit. And I can can wait some more. Whatever it takes is ok by me Jim. I realise that the development of Red is going to be a continuing process, a continual evolution and ordering a camera is a commitment to that process.

P.S. Speaking of NASA, I wonder Jim, is it likely we will see a Red in space?

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

I see your point. But only to a certain degree. I still think anyone who is unhappy should go buy a Sony instead then.
Then you don't see my point at all.

Given how open the dev team is, I'm always surprised when something as simple as "please send an e-mail" gets met with defensiveness and even hostility. I thought they wanted to hear what could make our experience as Redusers better. Sure, we didn't pay for the whole camera up front, but then again we're not asking for personal phone calls from Jim every time something changes. Just a mass-email through a system that, by all appearances, already exists for that very purpose.

Now, Jim says that he sent such an e-mail, and I believe him. It must have gotten lost, though, since no one saw it, which is a problem worth fixing and wouldn't have been noticed if Trevor hadn't brought it up. And granted I'm no billionaire business genius, but it seems to me that "I sent an e-mail" should be the first and perhaps only thing necessary to say, instead of getting defensive and offering a refund. If we wanted a refund, we'd ask. What we want is the camera because we believe in it, and in Jim.

As pointed out above, the fact that RED is still improving the camera in the face of a fiery apocalypse says a lot about the company and their commitment to the customers. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, and in such a situation it's probably more than forgivable for someone like Jim to get terse when he is, in all fact, doing something beneficial for us and letting us know.

But the openness and honesty goes both ways in this process. RED keeps telling us we have to get used to it, and we do, but so do they. Neither side can have thin skin about these things. If there's a problem, RED tells us. If we're unhappy, we tell RED. If we're unhappy beyond repair, we'll ask for a refund. The fact that people are honestly expressing their frustration, at least when done so in a reasonable respectful manner, I only see as a good thing for the future of the relationship between RED and its customers. It will help RED stay in touch with the user base and avoid becoming another out-of-touch corporate entity, the likes of which these forums do so love to malign.

Again, this push-back doesn't affect me that much. I was expecting another slide, and this makes it more likely that I'll be able to buy my RED with a production budget on a film that will be down the tubes by the time the camera's ready, instead of my own pocket. I'm actually happy for the delay, in that regard. So I'm not "complaining" and I don't want it to sound that way.

We're all in this together, so let's try to both sides keep learning how a "revolution" like this works. There's no need to get defensive or offended. That's all I'm saying.

[Michael Brennan]

The adjustable lens mount is something a few of us have wanted, well done Jim and team!

A remaining obvious improvement which WILL happen sooner or later is a 14bit A/D.

Anyone hwo has been ignoring the advice of experienced users and has started scheduling Jobs with RED have only themselves to blame for any frustration.

Having said that the experience of other manufacturers is worth noting.
Thomson tend to design a product and make it to that spec and don't add incrimental improvements. They have said that they have to stop tweaking at soem point and make money out of the camera


Sony in the past tended to release the camera and keep tweaking until the money runs out and we are left with a half baked camera (albeit with more improvements than it was first launched).
Lately though they are testing for longer. XDCAMHD for instance.

Dont know how to characterise REDs approach, although the plan is for continuing upgrades to existing kit there will come a time when major componets need to be improverd or that a revised form factor will be desirable and so that a completly new camera will be the way to go, but I'd guess that this is a 3-5 years away.

But it seems to me that we are at the point soon (maybe three months) with RED where any delay caused by anything other than bug fixing raises the hackles of those who have been waiting the longest.

But as a bloke who has had the early adopter spirit beaten out of me over 25 years, I'd wait six months for;
*14bit AD
*a revised body so I can bolt a battery directly on the back (or an elongated one that runs down the body)or moving camera menue display to the side of the camera.
*Removable sensor block to form a remote head.


I'd be very pleasently surprised if these things would be on offer as cost effective upgrades to the existing camera.

Ive guessed/timed my delivery for March to hopefully coincide with revised features and most bug fixes to be implemented, until then I'm sitting on the funds of my recently sold 2/3 inch HD kit....


Mike Brennan

[Michael Stanmore]

Ha! By the time my camera #3000 or so arrives, it'll be so pimped up to the gills with features I won't know what to do with it. By then it'll be able to do 8 trillion frames a second at 4K with a hundred and two stops of latitude...With a PL mount that goes to the shoot by itself while the rest of the camera stays at home and puts it's feet up.

Awesome.

Stay safe out there.

Mik.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Then you don't see my point at all.

Given how open the dev team is, I'm always surprised when something as simple as "please send an e-mail" gets met with defensiveness and even hostility. I thought they wanted to hear what could make our experience as Redusers better. Sure, we didn't pay for the whole camera up front, but then again we're not asking for personal phone calls from Jim every time something changes. Just a mass-email through a system that, by all appearances, already exists for that very purpose.

Now, Jim says that he sent such an e-mail, and I believe him. It must have gotten lost, though, since no one saw it, which is a problem worth fixing and wouldn't have been noticed if Trevor hadn't brought it up. And granted I'm no billionaire business genius, but it seems to me that "I sent an e-mail" should be the first and perhaps only thing necessary to say, instead of getting defensive and offering a refund. If we wanted a refund, we'd ask. What we want is the camera because we believe in it, and in Jim.

As pointed out above, the fact that RED is still improving the camera in the face of a fiery apocalypse says a lot about the company and their commitment to the customers. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, and in such a situation it's probably more than forgivable for someone like Jim to get terse when he is, in all fact, doing something beneficial for us and letting us know.

But the openness and honesty goes both ways in this process. RED keeps telling us we have to get used to it, and we do, but so do they. Neither side can have thin skin about these things. If there's a problem, RED tells us. If we're unhappy, we tell RED. If we're unhappy beyond repair, we'll ask for a refund. The fact that people are honestly expressing their frustration, at least when done so in a reasonable respectful manner, I only see as a good thing for the future of the relationship between RED and its customers. It will help RED stay in touch with the user base and avoid becoming another out-of-touch corporate entity, the likes of which these forums do so love to malign.

Again, this push-back doesn't affect me that much. I was expecting another slide, and this makes it more likely that I'll be able to buy my RED with a production budget on a film that will be down the tubes by the time the camera's ready, instead of my own pocket. I'm actually happy for the delay, in that regard. So I'm not "complaining" and I don't want it to sound that way.

We're all in this together, so let's try to both sides keep learning how a "revolution" like this works. There's no need to get defensive or offended. That's all I'm saying.

Besides the fact that I think this move of RED (delaying a bit, making the camera a lot better for free) is great, I agree with this post.

The poster who got all the criticism DIDN'T say he was pist because of the delays (although he had maybe some annoyances about it)... he even said it was a good thing, considering the upgrade... he was ONLY pist about not getting a personal email, and instead, having to check trough publick forums...
I do think the hostility towards that post from members and - with all due respect - from Jim, was not correct.

If the RED Staff DID sent an email, then I think it's a bit normal that Jim got a bit pissed too, although I think he could have handled it better ("Trevor, didn't you get the email we sent? We sent an email to reservation holders...")...
I also think it's normal that considering the fires and chaos out there, Jim is maybe a bit (pardon the pun) hot-headed.

But as it is now: Jim sent an email, he was right.
But as it seems, the email didn't get delivered.
Trevor reacted, not knowingly.
Jim reacted, not knowingly.

But Trevor wasn't wrong...

[Hrvoje Simic]

If you just wrote "It's burning over here, you'll just have to wait, folks", no one would dare to argue. All the improvements are a great bonus.
We know you all are doing your best.

Hope everything turns out o.k. with the fire.

[Curran Giddens]

Much appreciated. That short that opens the reel just won a festival today so I'm feeling very proud ;)

Ian, congrats on winning the festival!

Looks like something I would definitely watch. :wink:

Which festival was it, btw?

[Michael Hastings]

Then you don't see my point at all.

Given how open the dev team is, I'm always surprised when something as simple as "please send an e-mail" gets met with defensiveness and even hostility. I thought they wanted to hear what could make our experience as Redusers better. Sure, we didn't pay for the whole camera up front, but then again we're not asking for personal phone calls from Jim every time something changes. Just a mass-email through a system that, by all appearances, already exists for that very purpose.

Now, Jim says that he sent such an e-mail, and I believe him. It must have gotten lost, though, since no one saw it, which is a problem worth fixing and wouldn't have been noticed if Trevor hadn't brought it up. And granted I'm no billionaire business genius, but it seems to me that "I sent an e-mail" should be the first and perhaps only thing necessary to say, instead of getting defensive and offering a refund. If we wanted a refund, we'd ask. What we want is the camera because we believe in it, and in Jim.

As pointed out above, the fact that RED is still improving the camera in the face of a fiery apocalypse says a lot about the company and their commitment to the customers. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, and in such a situation it's probably more than forgivable for someone like Jim to get terse when he is, in all fact, doing something beneficial for us and letting us know.

But the openness and honesty goes both ways in this process. RED keeps telling us we have to get used to it, and we do, but so do they. Neither side can have thin skin about these things. If there's a problem, RED tells us. If we're unhappy, we tell RED. If we're unhappy beyond repair, we'll ask for a refund. The fact that people are honestly expressing their frustration, at least when done so in a reasonable respectful manner, I only see as a good thing for the future of the relationship between RED and its customers. It will help RED stay in touch with the user base and avoid becoming another out-of-touch corporate entity, the likes of which these forums do so love to malign.

Again, this push-back doesn't affect me that much. I was expecting another slide, and this makes it more likely that I'll be able to buy my RED with a production budget on a film that will be down the tubes by the time the camera's ready, instead of my own pocket. I'm actually happy for the delay, in that regard. So I'm not "complaining" and I don't want it to sound that way.

We're all in this together, so let's try to both sides keep learning how a "revolution" like this works. There's no need to get defensive or offended. That's all I'm saying.

I love what the RED team is doing and all of the improvements to the camera. Kudos.

But the dorkman seems reasonable, too.

[number6]

We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim

From the man's oun mouth.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

From the man's oun mouth.

number6, please read the complete thread before replying.
Many people don't seem to have gotten their email, so something went wrong in the communication. That isn't RED's fault, but neither the fault of the customer.
Just a misunderstanding.

[Craig Schober]

We sent an email to 101-200 today before my post. 10 minutes after I made the decision. I don't know how to communicate any better.

Jim

thanks for the update and the improvements to the camera but i didn't receive any email either.

[Gunleik Groven]

If you just wrote "It's burning over here, you'll just have to wait, folks", no one would dare to argue. All the improvements are a great bonus.
We know you all are doing your best.

Hope everything turns out o.k. with the fire.

Me2

Cheers!

Gunleik

[number6]

number6, please read the complete thread before replying.
Many people don't seem to have gotten their email, so something went wrong in the communication. That isn't RED's fault, but neither the fault of the customer.
Just a misunderstanding.

Your right. I admit to not having read every post closely on this thread but I don't remember anyone in the 101-200 group other than Trevor not getting their email.

Initially my oun email client did not allow emails from RED into my inbox, but that is all resolved now.

I guess my point is that before going off on a company that is bustin' its butt to produce superior quality in its product, if one doesn't get an email he or she expects perhaps it would foster better manufacturer/customer relations to INQUIRE if an email was sent and if not, why not?

The only reason I comment is because I wake up in a cold sweat some nights wondering if the lack of appreciation of RED by its customers will cause them to say "Oh what the hell! Ship the cameras as is and let the whinin' bastards send them back for upgrades later on. Everybody start taking off at five like normal people. Screw these ungratefuls!"

I hate sending things back.

edit: just saw a post by Wigby that he didn't receive an email as well.

[Karbon Arc]

just read the news, great work Jim. Well worth the wait.

[Craig Schober]

I guess my point is that before going off on a company that is bustin' its butt to produce superior quality in its product, if one doesn't get an email he or she expects perhaps it would foster better manufacturer/customer relations to INQUIRE if an email was sent and if not, why not?


wait...so you want people to send red an email or call red asking if red sent an email? i don't think anyone expected to get an email today but jim did start this by saying emails were already sent out. it only goes to prove the point of customers complaining about communication problems.

no one is faulting red for delays and certainly no one is faulting red for improving the red one on their dime. it's just hard when you've been waiting over a year and you're next in the line for the ride and the attendant suddenly puts out the "ride under maintenance. come back later." sign.

[Andrew M.]

number6, please read the complete thread before replying.
Many people don't seem to have gotten their email, so something went wrong in the communication. That isn't RED's fault, but neither the fault of the customer.
Just a misunderstanding.

e-mail or not e-mail everybody got the news, this way or the other, 24 h rafter decision was made and way before the scheduled delivery time, so looks like very good communication. I really do not know where the problem is.
I think it is just the process of venting out impatience.

Think, only in 10 years 4K format will be on your cellphone camera…

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

e-mail or not e-mail everybody got the news, this way or the other, 24 h rafter decision was made and way before the scheduled delivery time, so looks like very good communication. I really do not know where the problem is.
I think it is just the process of venting out impatience.

Think, only in 10 years 4K format will be on your cellphone camera…

It's not impatience from my part, I haven't got a camera reserved.
And I absolutely *adore* the business model from RED, but I also think it's normal as a customer to get such a important news via email personally. I love the open communication on this board, but as some customers noted: not everyone is in a position of being able
to check these boards regularly.
And it seems that RED DID email people, but something went wrong, because already 3 or 4 people say they didn't got the email.
Again: not RED's fault, but not that of the complaining customer either.
If people complain about some communication confusement, it shouldn't be immediately attacked (by some members here), but
people should just think about it, and think how it can be even more improved (because, as already stated, RED is doing a pretty good
job in a very open communication with it's customers).
I applaud RED, but it's wrong that members who are complaining here with a sincere point, are just being attacked...

And you don't know if everyone has got the news...

So my intervience in this thread is just to support some of the views here stated, because some of them are bit too hostile received by some members here, while they do have a point.

[number6]

it's just hard when you've been waiting over a year and you're next in the line for the ride and the attendant suddenly puts out the "ride under maintenance. come back later." sign.

I know... I know... I put the blame for this squarely on O. A. Deming. He's the one who developed the idea of 'just-in-time' assembly where you ordered parts to arrive at a certain time and therefore did not have to keep them on hand; thus reducing cost.

Now as individuals we expect whatever 'part' of our assemblyline life that we have ordered to be there on time and if not, then WHY IS THIS NOT HERE FOR ME! Of course, we forget that the purpose of this is to make things less expensive for us, and therefore, if something goes awry, then that was the risk we agreed to when signing on.

That's life in the O. A. Deming world.

edit: thought perhaps I had better clarify to avoid any confusion that my reference to 'parts' for a 'just-in-time' assemblyline was not referring to RED's manufacturing process, but to the way we conduct our lives, as a rule. Not saying you DIDN'T get it... just sayin'

[Zack Birlew]

Well, shoot, if you're going to have less noise and more dynamic range at 25fps and lower, go ahead and figure out how to get the same thing for 26fps and above! :biggrin: I REALLY wouldn't mind that! <--- going to be RAW port purchaser

[Andrew M.]

It happens in my business a lot. People do get the message, long before it is due, but then they come and add oil to the fire that they didn’t get the e-mail.
Hey! Just by coming and communicating the fact that they didn’t get the e-mail long before the e-mail was due, proofs that they got the message.
With all this spam filtering and other disruptions sometimes it happens that e-mail doesn’t get through.

[number6]

It happens in my business a lot. People do get the message, long before it is due, but then they come and add oil to the fire that they didn’t get the e-mail.
Hey! Just by coming and communicating the fact that they didn’t get the e-mail long before the e-mail was due, proofs that they got the message.
With all this spam filtering and other disruptions sometimes it happens that e-mail doesn’t get through.

BINGO!

[msadauskas]

Thanks Jim. Good news for us. Lots of new features every month, KUDOS :)

[Justin Kirchhoff]

If someone is going to be be a baby about not getting an e-mail, maybe they won't be able to even handle the power of RED.

[Michael Schrengohst]

If someone is going to be be a baby about not getting an e-mail, maybe they won't be able to even handle the power of RED.

:w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

[Chris Parker]

Wow. Reading this thread makes me think.....

Jim should start a gang. He sure does have feverent support from all the REDheads. Someone posts a complaint about anything on here and they are immediately attacked by the pack.

I too fully support RED and this decision to hold production. I also love RED AND their business model. I wouldn't want it to change one bit.

But I think that people should still have the right to complain from time to time. Or does this warrant ridicule from the community? My favourite was the post that said 'maybe the guy who complained about the email thing can't handle the power of the RED in his hands.' Too funny. Yeah, maybe he can't handle the power of RED in his hands. Okay.

Keep up the good work. But even when things are tough, and you KNOW you are doing things that are 110% in the interests of the customer, you have to listen to the odd complaint. Sucks, but it is all part of it....

Anyways....have at me now, those of you who feel the need to attack a less-than-100% proRED post.....

P.S. It is only through hearing and trying to understand all those RED nay-sayers out there in the world (of which there is a lot, not on this board, but in real life....and I have made it my mission to convert as many of them as humanly possible) that RED will continue to flourish and prosper. By shunning criticizm, and ignoring it, the cause will not be helped.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Wow. Reading this thread makes me think.....

Jim should start a gang. He sure does have feverent support from all the REDheads. Someone posts a complaint about anything on here and they are immediately attacked by the pack.

I too fully support RED and this decision to hold production. I also love RED AND their business model. I wouldn't want it to change one bit.

But I think that people should still have the right to complain from time to time. Or does this warrant ridicule from the community? My favourite was the post that said 'maybe the guy who complained about the email thing can't handle the power of the RED in his hands.' Too funny. Yeah, maybe he can't handle the power of RED in his hands. Okay.

Keep up the good work. But even when things are tough, and you KNOW you are doing things that are 110% in the interests of the customer, you have to listen to the odd complaint. Sucks, but it is all part of it....

Anyways....have at me now, those of you who feel the need to attack a less-than-100% proRED post.....

P.S. It is only through hearing and trying to understand all those RED nay-sayers out there in the world (of which there is a lot, not on this board, but in real life....and I have made it my mission to convert as many of them as humanly possible) that RED will continue to flourish and prosper. By shunning criticizm, and ignoring it, the cause will not be helped.

Voila, you said perfectly what I meant here with my posts...
I love these boards, and I'm a big RED fanatic also - and like you, 'converted' many people - but the hostile approach to people who have complaints here is REALLY unprofessional.

To Andrew: Trevor said he would have wanted a mail. Jim said, on a bit of a rude way: 'mails have been sent'.
Then other people replied not having got the mail - and Trevor probably didn't get the mail also... Otherwise he wouldn't have complained about not getting a mail.
And if Trevor didn't got the mail because of the Spam filters (most likely cause), then it's not his fault that he complained about the communication. If he was wrong, he can apoligize later, but no need to attack him this way. (I'm not talking about you, you are
respectful, I'm talking about some other members here)
p.s. if I don't get every nuance of your post, Andrew, it's because English isn't my native language.

[John Allardice]

.......And if Trevor didn't got the mail because of the Spam filters (most likely cause), ...........
Doubt it was spam filtering, I (and others who posted about not receiving the e-mail) have recieved various emails from Red before with no problems...just not this one.
It's not surprising given the chaos that's engulfed So-Cal over the last few days, things can slip through the cracks when you're gazing out the office window at a mile-high plume of smoke & fire that's advancing on your current position.

[PaulClements]

Odd thread... So some people are upset that they didn't get an email about some information that they seem to have discovered regardless?

It's one thing being pissed that you have to wait a bit longer for your camera but given you're getting more bang for your buck I wouldn't beat that drum too hard. I'm all for complaining about something when the result is that whatever the issue is gets changed for the better, but it seems in this case that it's the opposite.

Paul

[number6]

But I think that people should still have the right to complain from time to time. Or does this warrant ridicule from the community?

Skipdivils... your post was well thought out and gracious. I only point out this one segment to ask "Is it not also the right of people to complain about the complainers?"

[Dexter Gregoire]

Whatever. The production Hold is on whether we like it or not.
Maybe we can convince Jim to send out more units after the production hold.
400 units a month, can 600 be possible?

More order packers, more employees.

[Ronnie Silos]

Doctor's are paged when there is an emergency Technicians are called late at night when there is an emergency. I'm only citing extreme examples of immediate notification. Here is a product that is still really being created and is evolving rapidly. I think really a post on this board is sufficient. A personal email could be overkill. If you made concrete plans for this camera and need 24 hours notice if anything changes with the schedule, you have made bad planning. Jim is passionate and that's part of what drive's Red and his success. You start your message with "I'm really pissed" and you will get a counter punch back from him because he is a winner. Red takes suggestions, complaints, and criticism on a daily basis. I think the problem here is - at this stage, asking for immediate (within 24 hours) notification when there is a delay, is over kill. There are different levels of notifications based on urgency.
Ronnie

[Andrew M.]

Presidents and Mad Scientists of any corporations are not trained to deal with the customers. Engineers are good designing the products accountants are trained to do accounting and Sales people are trained to sale, customer service is trained to deal with customers.
How many times I was told to shut up and never talk to customers again. I am just not trained to do customer service. I think RED doesn’t have customer service yet, trained and dedicated to deal with customers. I don’t think if RED has even sales department.
But I hope that Jim will still post here the bad news as well as good news and we all know by now who has long fuse and who has short.

[Ben Feuer]

143 here -

I didn't receive an e-mail. So you can add me to the 'missed' list, if there is such a thing.

Personally, I blame fire. All you people who talk about "fire is the cleansing cycle of nature" can stick it where, er, the flame don't burn (?). I WANT MY RED!

Wah.

[Dexter Gregoire]

More order packers, more employees.

We can call them Red-Packers.

[Steve G]

As a dop who works with lots of different hd cameras and sometimes even film, it is frustrating to see people who are not swept up with redigious fervour getting lambasted on these forums. All the top end cameras such as varicams, 900rs, genesis, d20's and reds have their place in this industry. Not one camera is good for all things. The red will not be good for observational documentaries or things with lots of hand held. At present, from the photos of peoples rigs, it does not look that ergonomic, and believe me, if you have to hand hold on any drama or doc for a day, this counts. Long term reliability and servicing/repair issues for "around the world use" have yet to be ascertained.

The stories that we film are more important than the technology we use. The way we choose to tell those stories and where that happens dictates what kit we should use. No camera is ever perfect for all projects, but from the choice that we have just now, we are well covered.

I really look forward to getting a chance to use the red camera, but I don't believe that it is the camera to slay all others.

steve gray
director of photography
london uk
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1034732/

[number6]

but I don't believe that it is the camera to slay all others.

steve gray
director of photography
london uk
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1034732/

Well, MY CAMERA CAN LICK YOUR CAMERA! That is, I think it can. I don't have my camera yet... theoretically speaking though.

[Steve G]

Sounds like a scene from a cronenberg movie

[number6]

Sounds like a scene from a cronenberg movie

apologies if I've plagiarized. Wasn't intentional.:blush:

[Steve G]

It was actually a tv that kissed james woods...

[number6]

It was actually a tv that kissed james woods...

A tv kissed the SHARK! gotta see that one.

[StephenCook]

These new upgrades sound fantastic. A shooters dream. But we camera assistants have a dream, too. My dream is of a red lens capable of a smooth, light touch focus pull. A red lens with witness makes. A red lens with more detailed footage makings so I don't have to sweat shooting at 50mm on the Variable prime.

I'm speaking only of the 18-50mm zoom. Have no experience with the other zoom or the Red primes.

When I throw on a ziess standard I remember how a 35mm lens is supposed to behave.

I love this camera. It makes pretty, eye-watering images. But if your going to sell your camera as a cine camera, you have to design it as such at every level. Who cares how great the glass looks if you have jerky focus pulls and your camera shakes when ever the assistant pulls focus because the barrel's so sticky.

I'm pulling focus with the Red in NC and the battery mount has just gone bad (we think) because it's made of cheap plastic and uses V-mounts instead of the anton bauer style. The camera has begun shutting down at the slightest shutter of the battery. We are forced to tape and ziptie the battery in place to avoid this. Battery changes now take two to three minutes.

Red has been kind enought to send us a new set of batteries and a new mount, as well as a new charger (it appears the terminals on the batteries have been damaged do to play in the connection or something). But it just seems like in the rush to get 4k on the market red has cut a lot of corners on the accessories. There's nothing different about the fresh mount being sent, as far as I know, so how am I to keep the same damage from occurring to the new mount. We're shooting a racing move, for crying out lound. The camera bumping and shaking quite a bit.

On a more posative note, I'm really getting into the myriad rigging options I have with red. And it does make sexy, sexy pictures. I might need a towel. Shooting a 2.35:1, so lovely.

[Chris Parker]

Odd thread... So some people are upset that they didn't get an email about some information that they seem to have discovered regardless?

It's one thing being pissed that you have to wait a bit longer for your camera but given you're getting more bang for your buck I wouldn't beat that drum too hard. I'm all for complaining about something when the result is that whatever the issue is gets changed for the better, but it seems in this case that it's the opposite.

Paul

Very good point.

[Chris Parker]

Skipdivils... your post was well thought out and gracious. I only point out this one segment to ask "Is it not also the right of people to complain about the complainers?"

hahaha. that is good. made me laugh out loud for sure. thanks.

[Trevor Meier]

My complaint is a pattern of lack of communication directly to reservation holders. Specific questions have been going unanswered for a long time. And now a snap change at the last minute that I would not have heard about if I didn't happen to come on the boards yesterday.

I'm happy for the new features. I'm unhappy that those of us next in line are going without information up to days before shipping, and then having things changed still without clear communication. I don't have time to sit on reduser waiting for news. If I'm next in line, I need real info directly from the source.

But... email sent, I'm sure RED gets the message. They're working they're asses off creating a revolutionary product, not to mention the fires, so I can cut them some slack.

Just the fact that I've been heard is part of what makes RED revolutionary.

[Charles Adams]

Then you don't see my point at all.

Given how open the dev team is, I'm always surprised when something as simple as "please send an e-mail" gets met with defensiveness and even hostility. I thought they wanted to hear what could make our experience as Redusers better. Sure, we didn't pay for the whole camera up front, but then again we're not asking for personal phone calls from Jim every time something changes. Just a mass-email through a system that, by all appearances, already exists for that very purpose.

Now, Jim says that he sent such an e-mail, and I believe him. It must have gotten lost, though, since no one saw it, which is a problem worth fixing and wouldn't have been noticed if Trevor hadn't brought it up. And granted I'm no billionaire business genius, but it seems to me that "I sent an e-mail" should be the first and perhaps only thing necessary to say, instead of getting defensive and offering a refund. If we wanted a refund, we'd ask. What we want is the camera because we believe in it, and in Jim.

As pointed out above, the fact that RED is still improving the camera in the face of a fiery apocalypse says a lot about the company and their commitment to the customers. I'm not saying anything to the contrary, and in such a situation it's probably more than forgivable for someone like Jim to get terse when he is, in all fact, doing something beneficial for us and letting us know.

But the openness and honesty goes both ways in this process. RED keeps telling us we have to get used to it, and we do, but so do they. Neither side can have thin skin about these things. If there's a problem, RED tells us. If we're unhappy, we tell RED. If we're unhappy beyond repair, we'll ask for a refund. The fact that people are honestly expressing their frustration, at least when done so in a reasonable respectful manner, I only see as a good thing for the future of the relationship between RED and its customers. It will help RED stay in touch with the user base and avoid becoming another out-of-touch corporate entity, the likes of which these forums do so love to malign.

Again, this push-back doesn't affect me that much. I was expecting another slide, and this makes it more likely that I'll be able to buy my RED with a production budget on a film that will be down the tubes by the time the camera's ready, instead of my own pocket. I'm actually happy for the delay, in that regard. So I'm not "complaining" and I don't want it to sound that way.

We're all in this together, so let's try to both sides keep learning how a "revolution" like this works. There's no need to get defensive or offended. That's all I'm saying.

DorkmanScott,

I do see your point, but what I said was to a certain degree only.

I even posted again immediately afterwards as shown here (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=100247&postcount=83) where I said that essentially a combination email/forum solution might be best for communication and for everyone, although for me this was not required. In other words, I agree that email would help, which is the gist of your post.

However, Trevor's post was not just "please send me an email". It was I'm Pissed. And that there was some suggestion of lost opportunities because of scheduling a camera that is not even widely available yet. When Jim posted his response, even his post was questioned as possibly a little too strong. And I cannot wonder myself about Trevor's?

Finally, I am not attacking anyone. But here is where I don't understand:


But anybody trying to do real work is getting shafted by RED's lack of communication.

As we've already established, there is NOT a lack of communication, just how and where to obtain it that is under question.

Gibby and Evin are working professionals. They visit the forums. Are they not doing "real work" as Trevor implies because they have time to visit the Red forums?

We all work too you know. I was not able to post again and read until now in fact because of work.

In summary, I believe email announcements for major changes should help. But cut me some slack too, how did all these people who've reserved Red find out about Red in the first place? At some point or another, from visiting first DVXUser then RedUser. It's not that hard.

[jbeale]

I'm unhappy that those of us next in line are going without information up to days before shipping, and then having things changed still without clear communication. I don't have time to sit on reduser waiting for news.

Jim says he emailed reservation holders S/N 101-200 with this news within 10 minutes of taking the decision, and then he posted it here. It is true that email is increasingly unreliable these days, when almost 90% of all email is spam. http://spamlinks.net/stats.htm#received-big-pc

I am just wondering, if you did not get the email, is that something within Red's control?

For myself, I have added this link ("Find Jim Jannard's posts") to my bookmarks: http://www.reduser.net/forum/search.php?do=finduser&u=9

I find this works very well, and it is no slower than checking my email.

[number6]

For myself, I have added this link ("Find Jim Jannard's posts") to my bookmarks: http://www.reduser.net/forum/search.php?do=finduser&u=9

I find this works very well, and it is no slower than checking my email.

Just did ditto. Thanks jbeale for the tip.

[Charles Adams]

My complaint is a pattern of lack of communication directly to reservation holders. Specific questions have been going unanswered for a long time. And now a snap change at the last minute that I would not have heard about if I didn't happen to come on the boards yesterday.

I'm happy for the new features. I'm unhappy that those of us next in line are going without information up to days before shipping, and then having things changed still without clear communication. I don't have time to sit on reduser waiting for news. If I'm next in line, I need real info directly from the source.

But... email sent, I'm sure RED gets the message. They're working they're asses off creating a revolutionary product, not to mention the fires, so I can cut them some slack.

Just the fact that I've been heard is part of what makes RED revolutionary.

Trevor,

I think overall your post was a good thing in the long run as we learn more about this new process.

Overall, I think we'd all like our cameras. I am going to bet that once we receive them, we will forget threads like this.

Anyway, hope you guys at Red stay on course. Despite the fires outside and on these forums :tongue:

[Gabriel C.]

Jim,

We all agree that you are doing an incredible thing, and a great job!!! I haven't had any issues as of yet, though I would like my camera asap ... I haven't had clients waiting for it because of your motto ... I'll get the camera, and be thrilled, when it comes. I'm just trying to translate what I think some of the people on the boards are saying. I wonder if RED has thought of any better modes of communication, or if there is perhaps some other reason why so many people talk about not getting the email from RED.

Maybe a sticky post that people can bookmark that has a biweekly or weekly update or something. I don't claim to have the solution, I'm just a lowly filmmaker, but it does seem some people want what is already great communication to be fabulous.

I'm dealing with the fires as well, so I know what you are going through. It's F@#$ing crazy around here. Thank god the weather today is more temperate.

Best ... and thanks,

Gabe

[Thor Wixom]

Honestly...

I'd rather have Jim & Co. spend their time perfecting the camera than sending emails.

-Thor

[Andrew M.]

STICKY is the way to go.
Do we have already one under announcements?

And I mean any announcements, upgrades, changes, new things etc.

Quick check and here it is:
http://www.red.com/en_US/pages/production_hold
Was posted 25-th I think Asian time, as far as I know where the web is maintained, so yesterday evening.

Again, repeat of this in the Sticky here will be appreciated

BTW did you put your name here?
http://www.red.com/email_announcements

[Steve Gibby]

All the top end cameras such as varicams, 900rs, genesis, d20's and reds have their place in this industry. Not one camera is good for all things. The red will not be good for observational documentaries or things with lots of hand held. At present, from the photos of peoples rigs, it does not look that ergonomic, and believe me, if you have to hand hold on any drama or doc for a day, this counts.

I disagree completely...

I took delivery of a RED One camera system almost two months ago (8/31), and since then I've done extensive hand held documentary style shooting with it. I have 30 years of mobile EFP experience, including extensive hand held experience on several hundred international and national television programs. See the pics I've attached for just a few examples of the many hand held/shoulder held EFP configurations of RED #8 I've been shooting with. The 2k footage shot in these configurations looks excellent. Right after shooting in the pictured configuration I could have quickly re-lensed and re-accessorized the camera for a S35mm cine-style production in 4k. Try doing both 4k RAW using S35mm and 35mm still lenses, and 2k RAW production, using a choice of S35mm, 35mm still, S16, or B4 2/3” lenses on your F900, Varicam, Genesis, or D20. Won’t happen.

The RED One camera is equally adept at cine style and EFP style production. Whoever claims it isn't is simply in tech-denial, is protecting their investment in legacy 2/3" camera systems, hasn't used a RED One camera system themselves, or if they have and still deny that, they limited skill sets, or just simply have a closed mind when it comes to RED One's actual utility range. It makes me smile when people tell me I can’t do what I’m already doing.

In the past two months my RED camera has been used for 3D, underwater, aerials, hand held, on various tripods, on jibs, on stabilization systems, by large film style crews, solo EFP, documentaries, nature, sports, commercials, features, extensive cine style, extensive EFP style, and on and on and on and on. I have pics of it in use on all those projects, with appropriate lens and equipment setups for each. Pics of many of my different RED One camera configurations have been posted right here on RED User.

Real world bottom line: With its scalability, flexibility, range of formats, array of lens types possible, and selection of accessories available, the RED One camera becomes what you lens and accessorize it to be for each project.

To get back on thread: These new improvements announced will further enhance the utility and flexibility of an already excellent RED One camera system - at no additional charge to us camera owners. Thank you very much RED.

[Fix]

now that looks a lot better than the other pics I have seen from your rig Gibby. I think you just sold me on that EFP configuration. It still looks like you should move that evf a tad forward though. Im just saying.

[Steve Gibby]

now that looks a lot better than the other pics I have seen from your rig Gibby. I think you just sold me on that EFP configuration. It still looks like you should move that evf a tad forward though. Im just saying.

Yes...as I posted on another thread, that day I only had the ability to mount the EVF on the top-left of the camera. If I would have had the left-front RED Cage piece that day, I could have mounted the EVF on that, thus lowering it a bit, and having the ability to move it forward. For that setup, a sliding shoulder pad system, and a longer EVF mounting arm would have polished off the setup. I would guess that if RED doesn't manufacture items like that, that a 3rd party manufacturer will quickly. Also that day, I didn't have a Fujinon multi-pin to 12v LEMO adapter and a cable extension, otherwise I could have powered up the zoom rocker for the Fujinon lens.

The setup you see in those pics weighed around 23 lbs - a good weight for a shoulder held rig.

Getting back to this thread subject: RED communicates better than any company I've done business with in my 30-year career. I couldn't be happier with their communication process. I realize that some are frustrated, but lets cut them some slack. They have a fire going down there, they have a small staff, they are jumping through hoops to satisfy their customers, and the price to performance ratio of their equipment is unheard of.

Lets everyone take a deep breath, re-group as the family we are, and give them the benefit of the doubt. OK?

[Mark Mannschreck]

Hey Gibby - have you seen this?

http://www.filmtools.com/camera-comfort-cushion-com.html

Unnecessary on 2/3" shoulder mount cameras but with the Red handheld it certainly helps...

[sbroock]

Yes...as I posted on another thread, that day I only had the ability to mount the EVF on the top-left of the camera.

Hate to post a comment that is off the original thread, but ...

You can unscrew that cap at the front of the handle extender and attach the arm in its place, allowing you to move the EVF forward.

See earlier post.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5128

-S

[Steve G]

Gibby, I have no investment in cameras, 2/3 rd tech or otherwise. I have everything else, and hire the body and lenses that are required for the job in hand. Looking forward to using the red (there are none in england as yet) but still do not think that one camera can ever, in these days of multi channel programming and production companies using different post solutions, be good for every job, in my experience anyway.........


Can you run a bars matt box with the 2/3 lens set up on your photos ?

[Steve Gibby]

Hey Gibby - have you seen this?

http://www.filmtools.com/camera-comfort-cushion-com.html

Unnecessary on 2/3" shoulder mount cameras but with the Red handheld it certainly helps...

I have seen pics of that...but haven't used it. I like the concept. I want one...

Thanks for the heads up on that Manny...

[Steve Gibby]

Hate to post a comment that is off the original thread, but ...

You can unscrew that cap at the front of the handle extender and attach the arm in its place, allowing you to move the EVF forward.

See earlier post.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5128

-S

Good point...that solution may work OK.

In run 'n gun work you're grabbing the handle constantly. If the EVF is mounted right on the handle it seems like it would be easy to bump when you pick up and carry the camera. Maybe not...

I think a longer mounting arm, mounted just on one single piece of the RED Cage on the left front corner of the camera may be the best solution. I'll try that and post the results on RED User sometime...

[Dan Blanchett]

Hey Gibby - have you seen this?

http://www.filmtools.com/camera-comfort-cushion-com.html

Unnecessary on 2/3" shoulder mount cameras but with the Red handheld it certainly helps...

Now that will probably come in handy for me. I threw the RED on my shoulder a couple weeks back and it was not very comfortable on my bony frame. Others with more "natural" padding may have a better experience. :turned:

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby, I have no investment in cameras, 2/3 rd tech or otherwise. I have everything else, and hire the body and lenses that are required for the job in hand. Looking forward to using the red (there are none in england as yet) but still do not think that one camera can ever, in these days of multi channel programming and production companies using different post solutions, be good for every job, in my experience anyway.........


Can you run a bars matt box with the 2/3 lens set up on your photos ?

If I get over to England sometime soon I'll post on RED User that I'm coming that way and you and others can check over RED #8.

IMO RED One is the closest to a "one camera for all needs" solution that has ever been made...by far.

Sure, those 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zoom lenses can be easily used with a matte box. I'd suggest a lightweight clip-on matte box to keep the weight/form factor down. Alternately, if the lighting isn't going to change constantly, they can be easily used with affordable screw on filters.

[Desert Rune]

Gibby, your shoulder-mount configuration looks beautiful!

[Steve G]

Look forward to seeing red 8 in uk. Never been that keen on using clip on matt boxes on video lenses due to focus issues I've had with lenses that have been used in that way. Quite a lot of weight by the time you have 2 4 x 5.75 filters..... Would be even worse in 2/4k.

Can you use bars matt boxes ?

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby, your shoulder-mount configuration looks beautiful!

Thanks...I'm diggin' it for sure!

Since receiving RED #8 on August 31, I've been using pushing the camera into every conceivable setup, lens combo, and production environment. What tweaks me is seeing exactly what the limits of use are for the camera, and commensurately how many different kinds of cool shots we can get. That's been my hallmark throughout my career - when networks wanted hard to get shots in difficult environments, that nobody else thought of or could get, they'd call me and I usually could get what they want...in the air, on land, or in water.

I don't see many limits to RED One...me and my crews are havin' fun out here pushin' this camera to its limits...

[Steve Gibby]

Can you use bars matt boxes ?

Yes you can...I believe you mean rods, right?

[Mark Mannschreck]

Now that will probably come in handy for me. I threw the RED on my shoulder a couple weeks back and it was not very comfortable on my bony frame. Others with more "natural" padding may have a better experience. :turned:

Yeah - the gel pad on the Red "shoulder dovetail" shouldn't be confused with standard wrap around shoulder padding on traditional shoulder mount vid cams! It's better than bare metal but if you're gonna hand hold for any length of time, the weight of the cam and size of the pad can bring some pain... especially if you've got any shoulder/back problems or are extra bony

[Finner]

I respect you a lot Gibby but not only do I think there is no such thing as a camera that can do all things but I also see a red as a poor choice for fast moving EFP work and a terrible choice for ENG work. The camera works slowly. Clouds come in and you need to change ND's -slow-, clouds leave and you need to change ND's -slow-. 8 gig cards only hold just over 4 minutes of footage -slow-, you need time to dump footage unless you buy 20 cards -slow-, getting footage ready to edit -slow-, audio there is no pots on the side of the camera to adjust on the fly -slow-. A sony or panasonic HD tape camera is faster at all these things and IMO better suited for fast moving EFP or ENG work.

I love the camera and think it is great but I just do not see it as a fast to use EFP/ENG camera.

By the way is LART locked in for NOV-17 & 18? I need to know that those dates are for sure before I buy flights. I am looking forward to LART and maybe you will be able to change my thoughts on the cameras do all ability then:biggrin:

[Steve Gibby]

I respect you a lot Gibby but I not only do I think there is no such thing as a camera that can do all things but I also see a red as a poor choice for fast moving EFP work and a terrible choice for ENG work. The camera works slowly. Clouds come in and you need to change ND's -slow-, clouds leave and you need to change ND's -slow-. 8 gig cards only hold just over 4 minutes of footage -slow-, you need time to dump footage unless you buy 20 cards -slow-, getting footage ready to edit -slow-, audio there is no pots on the side of the camera to adjust on the fly -slow-. A sony or panasonic HD tape camera is faster at all these things and IMO better suited for fast moving EFP or ENG work.

Ah howzit Finner…

Nobody is suggesting RED One for ENG work. See my RED One for EFP & ENG sticky on the RED EFP/ENG forum. The only effective RED One work for ENG (electronic news gathering) is a b-camera for filmic creative montages and promos – no fast turnaround work. There have been several firmware upgrades since you used my camera, so take my word for it, the camera works much faster now. Since I left Calgary I’ve been shooting extensively in outdoor environments with either screw on filters or clip on matte boxes – and the workflow has been plenty fast for mobile EFP work. 8 GB cards in 2k RC RAW, with its data rate of around 7mega bytes per second (1/4 the data rate of 4k/23.98) last as long as 27 minutes depending on the complexity of the scenes you’re shooting – its variable bit rate encoding. Getting footage ready to edit has been as simple as a FW800 dumpoff of the cards to RED Alert, and editing in FCP (in ProRes422 for EFP deliverables) – something we’ve been doing easily. I do a boatload more mobile EFP work than you do, for many more years now, even though you had use of my camera for 3 days once, I’ve been using it continually for almost two months now.


I love the camera and think it is great but I just do not see it as a fast to use EFP/ENG camera. :

See info above…


By the way is LART locked in for NOV-17 & 18? I need to know that those dates are for sure before I buy flights. I am looking forward to LART and maybe you will be able to change my thoughts on the cameras do all ability then:biggrin:

LART dates are for locked in…contact me offline on that. Gonna be fun…

:gun:

[Jarred Land]

I want to make a quick note we wont be doing upgrades on existing cameras until the end of November.

Thanks all.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for that clarification Jarred...

[Axel Mertes]

Just in case you are wondering why our clean rooms are contaminated...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_fire.jpg

Jim,

please,

don't go to the clean room again with the 'gar - its intention was not to provide you clean air for having a good smoke :)

Hey RED guys, keep going. I am quite sure I know what is coming with lense mount and the daughter board - and it once again proves you READ and HEAR what we are saying, during shows or on the board. EVEN if you don't directly reply...

Looking forward to take hands on that baby. Sounds to become a neat christmas present if nothing else happens.

One question remains:

How exactly is the order process being execute, ie. how do I get contacted, how is the final configuration placed etc. for us early birds?

Commenst from the shipped very early birds are very welcome to learn about the process, so I am prepared to when it hits me.

Cheers & good luck with everything,
Axel

[Joel Kaye]

I want to make a quick note we wont be doing upgrades on existing cameras until the end of November.

Thanks all.

Are you going to work through 100 upgrades before you start shipping 100-200? Or are are both things going to happen at the same time?

I'm kinda guessing the 100 cameras will straggle in at different times so it doesn't make a ton of sense to me that you'd wait for all of them to be done before shipping the next set of cameras.

As long as you're screwing with the camera toss some audio level pots on there. :whistling:

[Chris Parker]

As much as it pains me to wait longer for my camera, I am just getting more and more excited about the bad boy I will ultimately get. Go RED....do what you need to in order to get me this thing of beauty that you are perfecting....

[Neil Duffy]

I was not expecting the cameras until summer 2008. So this is all bonus to me. And that is great that you keep on improving the camera.

Neil
#529,#530

BTW, it is a lot easier to recall a 100 or 200 vs. a 1,000. A lot faster too. I have a hunch there might be another recall in the works as all the features get enabled. And (hopefully with any future recall) another improvement with the camera. We are pretty much on the bleeding edge of a revolution of an entire industry.

[Steve Gibby]

By the way is LART locked in for NOV-17 & 18? I need to know that those dates are for sure before I buy flights.

Finner, and other LART team member that read this message, please visit the separate LART web site and check out my new post there. I'm looking for input from the team on what I've posted...

Thanks...

[Rick Darge]

yea... Will you still ship 100-200 starting Nov 30 or are we looking at yet another delay? Because Jarred's post kinda contradicts Jim's. You said earlier you wouldn't start new production until the old units have been upgraded

[Evin Grant]

If Red waits for all the units in the field to stop working long enough to come in for a tune up (especially after the hold) it'll be 2010 before another camera ships. I think the process of upgrading will be done coincidentally with 101-200.

[Kenn Michael]

I hope so.... and I know you do too Evin.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

[Edited]

[Finner]

All I know is people have a lot better cameras comming to them sooner due to the hard work of the early camera owners.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Now a cynic would say that the reason RED is able to get to market so much faster is because this is still inside the normal development cycle only the beta testers aren't under NDA.

Any cynics around here that want to say that?

I hear what you are saying :wink: , but in this case the camera is being improved; there's nothing wrong with the dynamic range as it stands.. I'm pretty level headed about RED but in this case I must say that I'm very impressed that they are taking the time and money to improve the camera while we are all screaming to get ours asap and pointing out the many unforseen problems, bugs and improvements that need to be made to the existing setup. I get the impression that Jim and the RED team are a little obsessed with creating the perfect camera, and I can both fully empathise with that attitude and appreciate that we are therfore more likely to get a fantastic toy to play with :gun:

[Andrew M.]

If Red waits for all the units in the field to stop working long enough to come in for a tune up (especially after the hold) it'll be 2010 before another camera ships. I think the process of upgrading will be done coincidentally with 101-200.

Actually we were discussing this subject on our last RED meeting.
It will be wise for the first few hundred owners of RED to wait for 12 months or so before sending the camera back for update. There will be many improvements, some small that do not warrant recall and some major that RED will decide to officially announce.
Most companies will do many less important upgrades at the same time you do send the equipment for a major recall.

[McDiver]

In the spirit of Stu's DV Rebel book -- take advantage of what's around you! Is anyone at RED shooting footage of this? :)
1601

[Andrew Kimery]

That and they had to pay to be beta testers.

To be fair, they chose to pay to be beta testers knowing full well it could be an unpredictable ride and that they could bail out anytime and get their money back.


-A

[number6]

To be fair, they chose to pay to be beta testers knowing full well it could be an unpredictable ride and that they could bail out anytime and get their money back.


-A

And didn't they get like a $2500 credit or something? Pretty nice beta break!

edit: but still, it's better them doing the beta testing than me because I will get at least $2500 worth of information from them.

[tj williams]

Sorry about the fire and delays caused thereby.

As Seen from the perspective of #1150............

1. Would like any further hardware improvements to be part of RED2 which we will all pay to upgrade 2

2. Hoping plans are being made to expedite production line build rates, to make up for these sources of lost time.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Edit with apologies to any who might be offended.