Dear Jim: Why no native edit for Avid as in FCP? [Archive]

Anthony Gratl

10-24-2007, 08:03 PM

While I understand that licensing the red raw codec to everyone under the sun probably isn't the best idea, especially in the beginning, I'm not understanding why Red Digital Cinema Company isn't licensing the Red Raw codec to Avid Technologies Inc, a company that revolutionized the post production industry. There are a hell of a lot of avid systems out there, including in my shop, where, in conjunction with my Red Camera, I'd like to be able to natively offline edit the beautiful 4k footage that I shoot in Avid Media Composer. I've worked as an editor for over a decade, and I attest to the fact that FCP holds nothing to Avid in terms of intuition between computer and operator, and that allows for some of the technical elements of editing to flow wonderfully, giving more attention to the emotional craft of editing.

So with all due respect Jim, why, if the goal as you stated (in the aintitcoolnews thread) is to allow independant filmmakers to shoot and then process and edit at home, isn't Red licensing the codec to Avid to facilitate doing this natively, instead of forcing us to form discussion groups to create workarounds? Will this change in the not-so-distant future?
Thanks for your time and consideration.

By the way, just saw my first Red camera demo. Amazing footage. Amazing camera. I'm very excited to receive mine. Thank you for the efforts. It is a revolution unfolding.

Jeff Kilgroe

10-24-2007, 09:22 PM

Evin Grant

10-24-2007, 09:23 PM

Anthony Gratl

10-24-2007, 09:42 PM

How do you know that RED hasn't licensed to Avid???

There have been numerous threads covering this same topic, but no definitive answers. You're also jumping to some pretty big conclusions.
Although I don't have the white paper from Red sitting in front of me, Jeff, unless told otherwise by someone from Red Team, my understanding is that Red has not licensed to Avid. I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I didn't make any. What I did is ask a question based on my understanding of the situation. If I'm wrong, and Avid has been licensed to develop their systems to natively edit Red raw code, I'm happy to be wrong.
And by the way, various threads have had postings in them from Avid people who have been told by Red that the codec is not available to be licensed to them.

IMO, this is more of a question for Avid than it is for RED. Why not ask Avid when they will have native support for REDCODE. After all, it's their software and they have to develop it, not RED.

...The same can be said for other NLE and post software.

Well, I believe you're mistaken on that. If Red refuses to allow a license for their proprietary codec to be released, no company is allowed to use it, thus eliminating the ability for other NLE's to edit Red raw natively. So far, only Apple's FCP and Assimilate's Scratch have that license. So it doesn't work how you're describing it.

Hence my question to Jim.

Anthony Gratl

10-24-2007, 09:47 PM

You assume Avid is interested. Look how long it took them to support P2 and DVCPro-HD. Why should Jim invest in solutions if the company isn't going to come to the party.

Jeff, you beat me by a split sec.

Evin, I know Avid is interested. They've posted on this site that they've tried to establish a relationship. Jim doesn't have to invest into the R and D of Avid in order for Avid to make their software natively compatible with Red raw. Jim collects money, or at the very least, grants them the rights for free, for allowing them to do it, although I highly highly doubt that, especially with the hot ticket he knows and everyone else knows he's holding. It's his choice, and his codec to sell. Not the other way around.

Hence my question to Jim.

Mike Prevette

10-24-2007, 10:02 PM

Anthony Gratl

10-24-2007, 10:16 PM

I don't get the problem. Avid has always been and Offline/Online type workflow.
Doesn't matter if you shoot digibeta, hdcam or 35mm you always have to transcode into an avid codec to edit it, then online back to the original. No reason why you couldn't do that right now with redalert>avid>scratch.

_mike

Well, transfers from digi, hd, and 35mm are a totally separate animal. And very simple solutions exist for those transfers back to an online suite.
Right now there is no native support in Avid for Red raw codec, as there is for MXF and a host of other codecs. My understanding of the situation is that Red isn't licensing the raw codec to avid or anyone else, outside the aforementioned apple and assimilate, thereby forcing everyone to find workarounds in order to take the raw codec and transfer it into something that avid can read. So it's not as simple as just going from redalert to avid. You need a workaround in order to get there, and then you need to convert footage files in order to get the compatibility. And then once you're done you need to reconvert the files in order to get them through the finishing stage. If there was native support than you wouldn't need these workarounds.

Jeff Kilgroe

10-24-2007, 10:54 PM

I'm puzzled as to why we have to have yet another thread on this topic....

Jim has stated just recently that they are talking to other people / companies about supporting REDCODE. The exact post may have been lost with the site crash, but if I find it, I'll reference it.

Evolve, why would you assume that nothing has been licensed or no arrangements have been made simply because there is no formal announcement or whitepaper? Seems silly to me. By that same logic, I can say that since I haven't seen any official press release from Avid stating that REDCODE will be integrated, this means that Avid simply isn't interested in doing such a thing.

They've posted on this site that they've tried to establish a relationship.

Really? Where? Link please. I'm on this site quite a bit and don't recall any certifiable entity from Avid on here making such a claim.

The camera is brand new. The firmware, software and even hardware are still in flux. This has to have some impact on integration into other software packages. Perhaps RED isn't ready to openly license or distribute CODEC information to more than a couple key developers who jumped onboard very early? (Apple, Assimilate) Perhaps other software companies are only now starting to show interest since the camera is no longer "a scam" or "vaporware". There are many sides to this issue and pieces in this puzzle. Given the current state of the camera and number of units shipped, it's entirely too early to jump to any conclusions.

I'd like to see RED support in Avid's tools myself... But I won't allow assumptions to fall to either side of the fence until I see official statements from RED and/or Avid. And judging by the number of threads on this very topic and no direct response from the powers that be, I would guess that there is nothing for them to report at this time.

Michael Morlan

10-24-2007, 11:09 PM

As I recall from the last thread covering this subject, RED has very limited bandwidth and doesn't want to integrate with everyone knocking on their door while RED Raw codec and all the companion hardware/firmware/software are still in flux.

M

RivaiC

10-24-2007, 11:29 PM

Sanjin Jukic

10-24-2007, 11:39 PM

RED is FCP thing.

AVID always wanted to work with film.

And they've got it long ago.

In the age of Digital Cinema Apple is going to win.

Apple has a deal with RED and AVID not.

That's must be clear for now.

AVID guys/girls should have a copy of FCP installed on their Macs too.

Bruce Allen

10-24-2007, 11:39 PM

Agreed, Avid support of the Red codec would be best.

As a stopgap measure, Avid needs to make their software able to import timecode from Quicktimes ASAP. They will need to do this anyway if they're going to support the Red codec.

This would allow you to create DNxHD files with timecode from your Red Quicktimes. Should be good enough for
a) high-budget feature work (do HD offline at 36mbps DNxHD, finish / DI on high-end system - eg Scratch, lustre, Quantel, etc).
b) broadcast work (do HD offline at 36mbps, online at 220mbps DNxHD, or skip the whole online-offline process if you want).

Anyone who thinks that Avid is going to go away and that we must all use Final Cut Pro is dead wrong because for many people Final Cut Pro is still lacking in workflow and interface in some respects. This trumps all.

Media Composer is very popular among top editors for many reasons. If you want a top editor to work on your Red project, chances are you're going to want to give them the chance to do their best work, and that means them doing their edit on the system that suits them best.

To be fair, Avid DS is also lacking.

Maybe this should be moved to the Avid workflow thread?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

RivaiC

10-24-2007, 11:46 PM

Hi Bruce, could you elaborate more in regards of interface and workflow being lacking ? I would love to hear your opinion.

I don't want any flame apps debate here as i know some people prefer the way FCP works and some prefer AVID and highly subjectives.

Sanjin Jukic

10-24-2007, 11:50 PM

Anyone who thinks that Avid is going to go away and that we must all use Final Cut Pro is dead wrong because for many people Final Cut Pro is still lacking in workflow and interface in some respects. This trumps all.

Media Composer is very popular among top editors for many reasons. If you want a top editor to work on your Red project, chances are you're going to want to give them the chance to do their best work, and that means them doing their edit on the system that suits them best.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce,

what are you talking about?

You know very well that Walter Murch Academy Award Film and Sound Editor using FCP for years and that his last job was editing of "Youth Without Youth" - Francis Ford Coppola's first film in ten years.

Maybe Walter Murch is not top editor for you?!!!

READ ABOUT IT>>>

Digital Discoveries: The Post Pipeline for Coppola's Youth Without Youth (http://www.videography.com/articles/article_15355.shtml)

Dominic Cochran

10-25-2007, 12:45 AM

Bruce,

what are you talking about?

You know very well that Walter Murch Academy Award Film and Sound Editor using FCP for years and that his last job was editing of "Youth Without Youth" - Francis Ford Coppola's first film in ten years.

Maybe Walter Murch is not top editor for you?!!!

READ ABOUT IT>>>

Digital Discoveries: The Post Pipeline for Coppola's Youth Without Youth (http://www.videography.com/articles/article_15355.shtml)

What are YOU talking about? He said AMONG top editorS. He didn't say every single top editor. And saying Avid=Film and FCP=Digital is kind of silly. They are both fine tools, but what Bruce said is true, Avid IS more popular in the high-end film AND digital world and is still the industry standard, for now.

It would be great to be able to edit Redcode natively in Avid, no one can deny that! How could that be anything but good?

Gavin Greenwalt

10-25-2007, 01:04 AM

The number of theatrical feature films edited on Avid so dramatically dwarfs FCP the comparison can hardly be made.

That doesn't mean one is better than another... I'm just saying while names are being dropped. Let's not forget practically every other editor alive who uses Avid for feature film editing.

It's not a market to scoff at.

Me. I like the Avid. It's fast. Unless Avid can deliver RED at the performance etc I've come to expect from them I'll leave the boggy 'online' RED editing to FCP.

Sanjin Jukic

10-25-2007, 01:07 AM

AVID is a corporate editing software/hardware trap.

You need a lot of money to invest in AVID Media Composer workstation.

It's not for an ordinary indie movie maker.

Apple knows best and also AVID knows it well.

Different tools for a different market.

And AVID addicts are not going to get a part of RED cake soon.

So

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!

Evin Grant

10-25-2007, 02:21 AM

Sanjin Jukic

10-25-2007, 02:32 AM

Native REDCODE support in FCP is on a way.

Tomorrow finally you'll get LEOPARD (http://www.apple.com/) and the rest is coming up after that.

"4K REDCODE™ RAW video can be opened directly in the upcoming release of Final Cut Studio 2.
Additionally, REDCINE™ can export files to the Apple ProRes Codec 10-bit codec for broadcast quality production."

http://www.red.com/skin/img/news/finalcut2.jpg

LINK 1>> (http://www.red.com/en_US/pages/finalcut)

"The Red Digital Cinema Camera Company is committed to building a high-performance digital cinema camera
that performs like a 35mm camera with the convenience of pure digital. Their RED camera is slated to deliver 4K digital
files at up to 60 frames per second with advanced post-production workflows. For Final Cut Pro editors it will mean faster
access to extremely high-quality content and greater flexibility in dealing directly with digital, without the need to match back to film."

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/ted_red_apple.jpg

LINK 2>> (http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/partners/cameras.html)

Columbus

10-25-2007, 04:08 AM

I think we need to have the option to edit offline in Avid even if it's takes a little longer to transcode to dnxhd. So the only thing that is stopping us is not being able to keep the same timecode as the red files when importing the quicktimes in to avid. I believe avid resets every clip to a 01:00:00:00 timecode. So if avid can't or won't change this we need to come up we a work around. I can suggest a couple of options.
Once files are in Avid modify each clip to match the timecode of original red files. Very laborous and timeconsuming.
Another workaround, have an option in redcine to make a copy of all clips restiping timecode to start at 01:00:00:00 in order match avid timecode.
Or option three everybody to continually email avid to ask them to keep timecode when importing quicktimes and then maybe it will happen.

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 05:48 AM

Evolve, why would you assume that nothing has been licensed or no arrangements have been made simply because there is no formal announcement or whitepaper? Seems silly to me.
For the second time now, Jeff, I didn't assume anything. It's a valid question. All mention to this point is about FCP workflow and how great it is. And I'm frankly not interested in working in FCP. It has been stated on the board that only Apple and Assimilate have been licensed. So I'm not drawing any crazy conclusions here man.
I asked the question as to whether or not Red raw codec was going to be licensed to Avid. And if that's silly to you, maybe you shouldn't respond to the thread, although you inexplicably also state that you would like to see Avid integrated. I'm liking YOUR logic here Jeff. It's, how do you say, ummm..not so good.

I can say that since I haven't seen any official press release from Avid stating that REDCODE will be integrated, this means that Avid simply isn't interested in doing such a thing.
Sorry? You really believe that?
In addition, my question is in regards to whether or not Red raw codec will be ALLOWED BY RED TO BE INTEGRATED INTO THE AVID WORKFLOW. Not the other way around. I, with all due respect to your pov, would assume that Avid wants to be part of the digital evolution. Not that they don't.

NOTE: I inadvertently erased my quote that Jeff had inserted here. It was
"They've posted on this site that they've tried to establish a relationship"
To which Jeff responded:
Really? Where? Link please. I'm on this site quite a bit and don't recall any certifiable entity from Avid on here making such a claim.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4756&page=2

Post #12.
I'd appreciate the benefit of the doubt before you try to condescend. I'm also on this site quite a bit. And there haven't been any threads that I've seen directly addressing this issue. So maybe I'm missing something. Until then, the question is quite valid.

Hence it's direction to Jim.

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 05:53 AM

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 06:02 AM

AVID is a corporate editing software/hardware trap.

You need a lot of money to invest in AVID Media Composer workstation.

It's not for an ordinary indie movie maker.

Really? That used to be the case with Avid. No longer at all

Apple knows best and also AVID knows it well.
This is just plain bs.

Different tools for a different market.
See my previous comment

And AVID addicts are not going to get a part of RED cake soon.
That's must be clear.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!
I haven't heard that from Red. And if so, I'd like to know why. This isn't a flame op against FCP. Everyone who wants to use it can. I like Avid. So why not licence them the Raw codec?

Hence the question to Jim.

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 06:07 AM

All of you guys seem to be missing one important thing...

Recode doesn't even run natively in FCP yet! Yes they have announced that it will, and I actually dropped files into a Beta timeline of FCP6 at NAB but at this moment you cannot cut an .R3D file in any version of FCP. And until that at least happens, somewhere outside Red headquarters I think all the bithcing about Avid support is pointless.

Sorry Evin, that's not important. It's been announced, which means it will happen. There is no bitching here. I just asked a simple question of Jim.

Is Red raw codec going to be licensed to Avid so that we can edit natively in avid?

RivaiC

10-25-2007, 06:08 AM

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 07:03 AM

yeah, this thread supposed to be in washroom. Why didn't i think of that. It's funny to see people keep posting in the forum and don't bother to call RED instead. You want to ask Jim ? Well, call Jim, altho i'm pretty much sure Sean will be taking the call.

Well, good luck

Frankly Rivai, you're not really pushing the thread forward, and you're a bit of a rude bully wannabe. I don't want to call Red. I'm aware of this thing called a telephone.
So thanks for not contributing anymore to this thread.

And so I started this with a simple question in mind.
I'd like to know whether or not the raw codec will be licensed from Red to Avid.

RivaiC

10-25-2007, 07:20 AM

Evolve, with polite i told you. Red has chime in in such discussion previously. Everybody has no clear answer on this. That is why i'm saying such discussion has been discuss for so many times without knowing when or will it be supported.

So i'm sorry of being a bit rude to you. I clearly don't understand why you don't want to call RED and find out. Reduser is clearly an independent forum and you can't expect them to reply.

Looking at this thread, you are not getting a single reply from red also. So if you aware of the telephone thing and don't want to use it and find out yourself. Up to you. I never bully you anyway. Can't help if you feel it that way. Make your own decision. Such thread would never have a satisfying conclusion based on your argument and it's never pushed forward either.

Peace

Gavin Greenwalt

10-25-2007, 07:41 AM

AVID is a corporate editing software/hardware trap.

You need a lot of money to invest in AVID Media Composer workstation.

It's not for an ordinary indie movie maker.

Apple knows best and also AVID knows it well.

wtf mate? Total FUD.

First off Media Composer isn't required in fact I've never used. Xpress Pro and FCP cost practically the same and in my experience requires significantly LESS hardware than FCP. In order to get RT performance out of FCP you practically need a top of the line 4ghz dual proc monster. I've edited multiple streams of DV on an athlon 1200 with a single 7200RPM hard drive. HD required a bit more of course but not much!

Sure you won't get 4k in Avid. But you can't get 4k 12bit RGB in FCP either so both ways you're effectively working offline.

Sean

10-25-2007, 07:50 AM

A lot of us are hoping for a world where Redcode is licensed to Avid and Premiere too. Apple loves to keep as much of their world as proprietary as possible (DRM anyone?). And frankly so does Avid! Then again, maybe it's just a matter of time. Maybe Red felt it was important to get one NLE up and running first instead of spreading themselves too thin. I don't know. Obviously, the people at Red, Avid and Apple know what the deal is, but they're all staying quiet on the subject. Avid seems to be particularly reticent to say anything in the forums or on their website about this.

RivaiC

10-25-2007, 07:58 AM

exactly why all of us hope and wait. When the time comes, it comes. It's either you have or you don't. Red clearly said that they're interested to make red as widely supported as possible.

What's going on behind the scene. Nobody knows.:spidy:

Kevin Halverson

10-25-2007, 08:17 AM

...Maybe Red felt it was important to get one NLE up and running first instead of spreading themselves too thin...

This seems to be the voice of reason in this thread.

RED has such a large task ahead of them and a good number of their development people are clearly 'mac fans' that its no surprise where they put their initial efforts. Clearly, for any third party to do the work that is necessary, they need a stable target to develop around; despite all the good things that this camera currently does. Stability isn't there.

It has been said that support for the "Three A's" of the NLE world (Adobe, Apple, Avid) is their intent. I see no reason not to accept that this is their plan, but realize that this camera and its post support tools are works in progress. Its good to keep them informed of our collective needs, but I strongly suggest that keeping it in a positive and productive frame and not accusatory will yield better results for all of us that will not be going the FCP route.

Jeff Kilgroe

10-25-2007, 08:28 AM

So I'm not drawing any crazy conclusions here man.

Perhaps not crazy conclusions... But conclusions that, at this time, can not be substantiated.

"I'm not understanding why Red Digital Cinema Company isn't licensing the Red Raw codec to Avid Technologies Inc"

"unless told otherwise by someone from Red Team, my understanding is that Red has not licensed to Avid"

"So far, only Apple's FCP and Assimilate's Scratch have that license"

I asked the question as to whether or not Red raw codec was going to be licensed to Avid. And if that's silly to you, maybe you shouldn't respond to the thread

No, it's not silly to me. That is a perfectly valid question and I would like to know the answer to that question too. ...But you didn't ask that question in your initial post. You asked why REDCODE has not been licensed to Avid. The title you chose for this thread is "Why no native edit for Avid as in FCP?". I was just saying that there is no way to confirm that it has or has not been licensed until we get an official statement one way or another. In the end, the ball is going to be in Avid's court so to speak... For now, we don't know the situation and there's some decent evidence to show that the only hold-up on RED's end (if any) is that they simply don't have the software ready.

I'm still of the opinion that this is a question better asked of Avid. As in do they intend to provide native REDCODE support? They may have to wait on RED to officially release a licensing package or SDK, but that does not mean they can't have the intention or have an open dialogue with RED at this time.

Sorry? You really believe that?

No, I don't believe that... Did you actually read my post? I was saying that using the same form of logical deduction you have, I could make an assumption in a different direction -- Avid not being interest, for example.

I want to believe that Avid is interested.

I do thank you for posting the link, I do recall it now. But it's hardly any official statement. It's a quoted email that another REDUSER received and we are left to speculate about what it really tells us. How much has changed in the meantime? How much information was that person at Avid really allowed to share in an email? Does the email even accurately reflect any situation? I'm taking it at face value -- "Red is not currently licensing its REDCODE RAW format" -- and that may simply reflect the current stage of development. It does not mean that Avid and RED are not working on these issues... Possibly even together. After all, this email did say that Avid and RED are working together.

Jeff Kilgroe

10-25-2007, 08:34 AM

I also want to reiterate what Evin said. Currently, there is no native support for REDCODE in Final Cut Pro either. It's been announced and it has been demonstrated at NAB and possibly a few other trade shows. We still don't know exactly how and when this is going to arrive.

Apple has been on-board with RED for quite some time, they believed in what RED was doing. Much of the rest of the industry largely regarded RED as vapor or even a scam. How many of them are now only just starting to express interest in supporting RED? This isn't going to happen overnight and I have a hunch that many software vendors have only taken notice since RED started shipping production cameras.

The best way to pursue Avid support for RED from a customer perspective is for anyone interested in such a thing to call or email Avid regularly and inquire about when they will offer REDCODE integration.

Sean

10-25-2007, 08:37 AM

The original question is worth asking, however. But whether we get an answer in the near future is a complete unknown.

Sanjin Jukic

10-25-2007, 08:42 AM

wtf mate? Total FUD.

First off Media Composer isn't required in fact I've never used. Xpress Pro and FCP cost practically the same and in my experience requires significantly LESS hardware than FCP. In order to get RT performance out of FCP you practically need a top of the line 4ghz dual proc monster. I've edited multiple streams of DV on an athlon 1200 with a single 7200RPM hard drive. HD required a bit more of course but not much!

Just learn more about AVID solutions and compare with Apple FCS 2 packages.

Do research.

Then you could say what is FUD.

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 08:57 AM

Evolve, with polite i told you. Red has chime in in such discussion previously. Everybody has no clear answer on this.
Rivai, first off, you weren't polite. You wanted to puke. So at least own it. And Jim has the answer to this question. Not any of us. That's why I'm asking him.

That is why i'm saying such discussion has been discuss for so many times without knowing when or will it be supported.
So i'm sorry of being a bit rude to you. I clearly don't understand why you don't want to call RED and find out. Reduser is clearly an independent forum and you can't expect them to reply.
I haven't read of any discussion with participation from Jim that answers the question. Which is why I asked it.
As to Reduser being an independent forum, that's a ridiculous notion. The owner works at Red.

Looking at this thread, you are not getting a single reply from red also. So if you aware of the telephone and don't want to use it and find out yourself. Up to you. I never bully you anyway. Can't help if you feel it that way. Make your own decision. Such thread would never have a satisfying conclusion based on your argument and it's never pushed forward either.
Peace
I'd like a simple answer on the forum, not over the phone Rivai. And I'm not getting a single reply from Red, at least in part because some responses seem to want to tell me that it's a useless question. And I'm not making an argument either, I'm asking a simple question. So if we stop this bickering style debate, and let Red respond, hopefully there will be an answer forthcoming.

Will Red raw codec be licensed to Avid so that it can be edited natively?

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 09:05 AM

By the way, I'll be calling avid and seeing what's going on on their end. Between Avid and Final Cut Pro, we have the two dominant offline systems on the market. So it behooves us to ensure that both platforms are useable, instead of switching to the one that is native. Someone mentioned Apple's compulsion for proprietariness (is that a word?). And it concerns me.
So the question needs to be asked of Red.

RivaiC

10-25-2007, 09:17 AM

pm you

reduser.net is independent forum, at least that's what sean told me. Anybody wants to clarify on this ?

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 09:21 AM

...But you didn't ask that question in your initial post. You asked why REDCODE has not been licensed to Avid. The title you chose for this thread is "Why no native edit for Avid as in FCP?". I was just saying that there is no way to confirm that it has or has not been licensed until we get an official statement one way or another. In the end, the ball is going to be in Avid's court so to speak... For now, we don't know the situation and there's some decent evidence to show that the only hold-up on RED's end (if any) is that they simply don't have the software ready.
There is no licensing agreement between Avid and Red!!!!! That's why we don't have an official statement!!!!! And the ball is not in Avid's court! It's in Red's, because their codec is proprietary!!! So they can choose who gets to incorporate it into their NLE workflow!!!!That's why I'm asking the question.

And what's the decent evidence about software readiness and it's relationship to the red raw codec licensing agreement with Avid?

I'm still of the opinion that this is a question better asked of Avid. As in do they intend to provide native REDCODE support? They may have to wait on RED to officially release a licensing package or SDK, but that does not mean they can't have the intention or have an open dialogue with RED at this time.

Well, sorry I think you're incorrect. They can only provide native REDCODE support if Red lets them. My question isn't for Avid. This isn't an Avid forum. It's a Red forum. That's why my question is directed to Jim at RED.

No, I don't believe that... Did you actually read my post? I was saying that using the same form of logical deduction you have, I could make an assumption in a different direction -- Avid not being interest, for example.
I never made any logical deduction about licensing agreements. I'm assuming, and I'm not being bold here, that Avid would want to be part of the cutting edge in digital imaging technology. The post that you asked me to dig up clearly indicates interest from Avid.
So your deduction and reasoning, and subsequent analogy, didn't flow down the same path mine did.

I do thank you for posting the link, I do recall it now. But it's hardly any official statement. It's a quoted email that another REDUSER received and we are left to speculate about what it really tells us. How much has changed in the meantime? How much information was that person at Avid really allowed to share in an email? Does the email even accurately reflect any situation? I'm taking it at face value -- "Red is not currently licensing its REDCODE RAW format" -- and that may simply reflect the current stage of development. It does not mean that Avid and RED are not working on these issues... Possibly even together. After all, this email did say that Avid and RED are working together.

I'm asking if there will be an official statement!!!! On the subject of official statements though, we did, however, receive one from Apple, stating that FCP will allow for native editing, using the Red raw codec that they have licensed from Red. Given that FCP and Avid dominate the post production industry, the lack of an offical statement from Red in regards to Avid bears asking the following question to Jim Jannard, the man with the answer:

Will Red raw codec be licensed to Avid so that we can edit Red Footage natively in Avid?

Jiri Bakala

10-25-2007, 09:26 AM

Here is a prime example what is a problem with this forum: a man asks a simple question and a bunch of people who don't have any answers flood the thread with opinions and flames. And the thread goes nowhere. Well done... again.

Anthony Gratl

10-25-2007, 09:32 AM

Yup. Which is why I keep posting the same question at the bottom of each post. I've told myself that it's a little creative exercise to thread it in, and so, without further delay, ladieeeees and gentlemen, boys and girls, in the centre of the big Red tent thread discussion you're in, we have a question for the ringmaster Jim Jannard, from Torontoooooo:

Will Red raw codec be licensed to Avid so that we can edit Red footage in Avid natively?

Jeff Kilgroe

10-25-2007, 09:59 AM

It seems that we all agree to disagree, even though we share the same interests in the same base issue.

On behalf of all interested parties, not even necessarily those interested in Avid support, let's try this again:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5478

Robert P. Hogue

10-25-2007, 10:20 AM

I wonder why AVID hardly up to date on latest stuff, not to mentioned their Nitris. Honestly, i think it's ridiculous if everyone has to knock on RED door. And to be honest, if i have to see another thread for such request, i will puke. This topic had been discuss to death !

Give a break.

True AVID revolutionized the post-production industry, but in the last few years, they have stagnated. Apple has caught up, and surpassed them in most respects, and they now have them on all fronts with Final Cut Server, and Color - which was a $25,000 application. They have a better network/SAN system that is not limited to Final cut, but can be used for business, science, you name it as well. Pro Tools has also floundered under their leadership - Logic Pro, Nuendo has surpassed pro-tools's capabilities, and now Apogee has stepped up to the plate to provide DSP cards (Symphony) that will work with Logic, Nuendo, etc.

I know very early on that AVID was not a believer in the RED camera, while Apple embraced the project early on. Panavision is also very much out there to discredit RED, rather than tapping into a lucrative market to rent their lenses. But now that Jim has unleashed his RED camera, it's gonna be hell to pay for those who did not support him. I guess they say you snooze, you lose.

Sanjin Jukic

10-25-2007, 11:03 AM

Borzoifilms,

well said.

Totally agree.

Lucas Wilson

10-25-2007, 12:37 PM

True AVID revolutionized the post-production industry, but in the last few years, they have stagnated. Apple has caught up, and surpassed them in most respects, and they now have them on all fronts with Final Cut Server, and Color - which was a $25,000 application. They have a better network/SAN system that is not limited to Final cut, but can be used for business, science, you name it as well. Pro Tools has also floundered under their leadership - Logic Pro, Nuendo has surpassed pro-tools's capabilities, and now Apogee has stepped up to the plate to provide DSP cards (Symphony) that will work with Logic, Nuendo, etc.

Woah... easy there... I admire both Final Cut and Media Composer for what they did and have done with the industry.

But don't get crazy - Apple is certainly catching up in many areas and has made an awful lot of great moves in recent years in the DCC market. But compare the install base for Unity vs. Final Cut Server. I don't even think Final Cut Server is publically released yet. And there are thousands of Unity and LANServe installs out there, serving seriously mission-critical customers like entire broadcast infrastructures, and feature film infrastructures. How many XSAN/XRAID infrastructure-level broadcast installs are there? I promise you it's nowhere near as many or as sophisticated as Avid's offerings.

ProTools floundering? Okay... let's list the number of top10 albums recorded and mixed on ProTools vs. Logic. How about major studios? Front of House installs? M-Pro boxes? Also... ProTools has a *much* wider install base on the Mac than on PC. So what are you actually saying? That only Apple software is viable for Apple hardware?

You can't just throw stuff like this out there without backing it up. I love my Tower. I love FCS2... and you can talk opinions all you want. But every once in awhile the Fact Police has to jump in. :)

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Kevin Halverson

10-25-2007, 04:18 PM

... and you can talk opinions all you want. But every once in awhile the Fact Police has to jump in. :)

Lucas
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ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Well said Lucas!

There seem to be many here that have elevated support for one hardware platform or another to an irrational level. Really, there just tools to do work. Its the quality of the work that you turn out that should matter, not the tools used to accomplish the task.

Be passionate about what you do, not the tools you use... unless of course, you too are just another tool.

Sanjin Jukic

10-25-2007, 04:38 PM

Lucas Wilson

10-25-2007, 04:52 PM

Lukas, unfortunately you are just a little player with the Assimilate Scratch in overall post-production industry.

If you are valuable for the digital media industry quite enough probably Apple would buy SCRATCH at the beginning like they did it with Shake and Final Touch.

A big fish eates a smalll fish, and that's a rule.

So don't worry so much about Apple, they will take over all of that anyway very soon!!!

...and this has what to do with the number of Avid and Apple seats in high-end DCC SAN infrastructures?

Also, as long as we're talking icthyology, big fish do eat little fish. Unless they get viral rot, fester, and die.

Lucas
------
Little Player with a Big Stick
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Joel Kaye

10-25-2007, 05:40 PM

Lukas, unfortunately you are just a little player with the Assimilate Scratch in overall post-production industry.

That wasn't called for - give it a rest 3rd man.

A close friend of mine is an editor at a major news network. He loves his FCP at home, but at work it's all AVID. He's been an instructor for both apps. He'll be the first to tell you FCP is a long ways from being able to service a busy newsroom as well as AVID can. When you get into the high end it's not about a couple million dollars this way or that... it's about 24/7 uptime and speed. AVID is a very fast editor and works well. More importantly, their on site service, networking and media management are significantly ahead of anyone else.

SalaTar

10-25-2007, 06:41 PM

5D was the small fish, and was..

"The liquidation of 5D Solutions Ltd. assets was triggered after 5D elected to close their worldwide offices on Friday, October 11th 2002. As part of their external communications, 5D also announced that it had terminated all remaining staff and that, due to financial difficulties, it would be liquidating the company's assets.

During the liquidation process Discreet had discussions with several of the founding members of 5D interested in acquiring 5D's key image-processing and plug-in technology through a newly created company known as Speedsix Software. As these technologies are of great value to many of Discreet's customers, Discreet decided early to fully support Speedsix in their future endeavors. Given Discreet's continuing interest in building and acquiring technologies that can improve their customers' ability to create, Discreet has purchased some of the remaining technology assets.

Discreet did not have any interest in purchasing the 5D Solutions Ltd. business, but only selected assets that contained innovative technologies that were of strong interest for its own product development plans. These assets included technologies related to the former Cyborg and Commander products. Discreet is now evaluating the exact integration of these technologies into the Discreet product line. "

Thus Cyborg is now Speedsix,ASSIMILATE

And Apple tried to buy but missed the bid...this time they may not

Lukas, unfortunately you are just a little player with the Assimilate Scratch in overall post-production industry.

If you are valuable for the digital media industry quite enough probably Apple would buy SCRATCH at the beginning like they did it with Shake and Final Touch.

A big fish eates a smalll fish, and that's a rule.

So don't worry so much about Apple, they will take over all of that anyway very soon!!!