Do we need to change the way we shoot?

[jimhare]

I was watching some Genesis test footage last week projected in 2k with a group of scary talented folk. Every time the camera panned, I could see anything with a distinct vertical line break up like crazy. Almost like there were reversed fields in an interlaced environment.

And I'm not just talking about jerky movement, there were distinct horizontal bands that seemed to be moving at different rates, but only in the fine detail.

I asked if anyone planned to change their shooting approach to avoid these issues but everyone in the room said they thought it looked great and didn't see a problem. These guys shot Chronicles of Narnia and Lord Of The Rings, and we were sitting in Animal Logic's theatre at FOX, where they made Happy Feet, so I wasn't about to disagree with them! I was too busy bowing at their feet and trying not to look stupid.

But I couldn't believe we were looking at the same image! Maybe it's from my former life as an encoder, scrutinising the fine detail during movement, that my eye is pulled to it, but I thought it was obvious and unacceptable.

Is it just me or is this a widespread issue? I haven't seen enough RED footage, particularly at large sizes, to tell.

Jim Hare

[Sanjin Jukic]

Genesis is HD and RED is 4K.

All I can say at the moment when RED staart to hit the market that
Panavision, Sony, Panasonic and Viper are running for their money.

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I think your crazy, both of you quite frankly..

1. I've seen plenty of films shot on the Genesis, f900, viper and f950 to think that their plenty fine.
2. Red isn't scaring any of those people most of them can't even be bothered to find out any details on the red camera let alone start "running for their money"
3. I'm not changing the way I shoot for anyone Red or no Red, Unless of course your supposed to shoot red the way I already shoot.

[Michael Stanmore]

I sure hope the digital thing isn't going to cause me problems. Because I sure as hell am not putting my life savings into a camera I can't even PAN with!!!

[Mark L. Pederson]

#1. set your light meter to 320
#2. shoot it like film
#3. keep shooting - like film
#4. drink a cold beer - watch your footage ... and smile

[Jim McKinney]

Hey Jim. I'm curious as to how close you were to the screen? Were you unusually close?

[Cail Young]

And I'm not just talking about jerky movement, there were distinct horizontal bands that seemed to be moving at different rates, but only in the fine detail.

This sounds suspiciously like an HD-level scaler not being quite up to the task of scaling a picture. Do you watch Rove on Sundays? Watch Peter Helliar's "petespace" segment - when they do the scaling to put Pete in the little box in the graphic, there's a similar bad tearing effect - is it the same?

[Graeme Nattress]

When I saw Panavision project their Genesis footage at Cinegear, I didn't see any of the issues you mention. It sounds like someone else has screwed up somewhere....

[Michael Stanmore]

One thing will be important... the servers and other equipment that is screening films in the cinema will need to be top notch and running with horsepower to spare. No-one needs frames dropped or digital breakup or any other of these sorts of digital problems because some twit at the cinema isn't keep the hardware in good nick.

[Jim McKinney]

#1. set your light meter to 320
#2. shoot it like film
#3. keep shooting - like film
#4. drink a cold beer - watch your footage ... and smile

I like the sound of that! Ditch that monitor.

[virtual-one]

The Genesis had that problem by superman to

[Christian Edwards]

These guys shot Chronicles of Narnia and Lord Of The Rings, and we were sitting in Animal Logic's theatre at FOX, where they made Happy Feet, so I wasn't about to disagree with them! I was too busy bowing at their feet and trying not to look stupid.



mate you don't need to making an impression..... you're a soon to be red owner! fuck panavision!... their one of the reasons you haven't been able to make films like this yourself

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Actually Panavision, at least in america is more than happy to let students etc use their gear for free. There's some kind of system up or at least there was where you could apply for use of panavision gear to use on your film I can't remember exactly how it works but blaming Panavision for not being able to make films is full of shit.

[Jiri Bakala]

mate you don't need to making an impression..... you're a soon to be red owner! fuck panavision!... their one of the reasons you haven't been able to make films like this yourself

Very professional...

[Christian Edwards]

sorry you're taking that statement out of context.id just rather see more ownership over the shoot of a production rather than leasing the ability to .i don't mean to be "unprofessional" or declare that such company's never do their bit for film in general i just get a bit annoyed with the monopolizations of an artistic medium

[Eryc Tramonn]

mate you don't need to making an impression..... you're a soon to be red owner! fuck panavision!... their one of the reasons you haven't been able to make films like this yourself

Hahahaha. I guess anything is possible. I'll shoot the next 2001 in my apartment...by myself. Danny Boyle has nothing on me, and my RED.

I'm being facetious - for those that don't get the joke.

[Michael "Dorkman" Scott]

sorry you're taking that statement out of context.id just rather see more ownership over the shoot of a production rather than leasing the ability to .i don't mean to be "unprofessional" or declare that such company's never do their bit for film in general i just get a bit annoyed with the monopolizations of an artistic medium
How can he take your statement out of context when he quoted the whole thing?

It's one thing to like the idea of what RED is doing as opposed to a company like Panavision. It's another to get all righteous about "monopolization" as if Panavision made you lose your home and family.

I mean, come on, how many people saying "Fuck [so-and-so]" on these boards have WORKED with so-and-so? How many people so wildly excited about the "death of film" have actually shot on film?

Does EVERY thread here have to devolve into "Fuck whatever the actual topic is, RED RULES WOO!" I hope not. I'd like to actually, you know, TALK about some of these topics instead of just dismissing them in manic bouts of cheerleading.

[Mike over Matter]

I mean, come on, how many people saying "Fuck [so-and-so]" on these boards have WORKED with so-and-so? How many people so wildly excited about the "death of film" have actually shot on film?

You are so right! Don't get me wrong; Im looking forward to the arrival of RED on the scene. But still, being 'old school' having shot on all kinds of film possible, I still can't help feeling sad about the inevitable "death of film". That's my heart thinking... (not the wallet) :waaa:

edit: offtopic huh 1 post, what happened with the rest??

[Christian Edwards]

How can he take your statement out of context when he quoted the whole thing?

It's one thing to like the idea of what RED is doing as opposed to a company like Panavision. It's another to get all righteous about "monopolization" as if Panavision made you lose your home and family.

I mean, come on, how many people saying "Fuck [so-and-so]" on these boards have WORKED with so-and-so? How many people so wildly excited about the "death of film" have actually shot on film?

Does EVERY thread here have to devolve into "Fuck whatever the actual topic is, RED RULES WOO!" I hope not. I'd like to actually, you know, TALK about some of these topics instead of just dismissing them in manic bouts of cheerleading.

out of context in regards for how it was intended ,which was directed and in reference to the original post by jimhare,
not as a topic itself. sorry about the loose language.weather or not i had worked with film or panavision is irrelevant ....look at the cost to print film ,its as if, unless you are a major corporation how are you able to afford to shoot on film
"yeah sure its great but i had to sell my house and family to print it "

its like i need to put a disclaimer at the end of every reply post so as to avoid being politically incorrect or in the event of being taken far to seriously ...maybe i should tone things down a bit so as not to "thread on any toes"

[Steve Gibby]

#1. set your light meter to 320
#2. shoot it like film
#3. keep shooting - like film
#4. drink a cold beer - watch your footage ... and smile

That's one field workflow...and we've shot a fair amount that way with RED #8.

But alternately we've been doing extensively for the past two months, in 4k and more recently in 2k, this field workflow:

#1. Make sure your flange focal distance is calibrated correctly (the newly announced PL mount should make this even easier).
#2. Shoot it like video, don't use a light meter, use the 100IRE zebra in RED One to set exposure, protecting for the highlights, and focus visually using the 2x image magnification button on the side of RED One - using no tape measure at all.
#3 Keep shooting - like video - a WYSIWYG electronic camera
#4. Drink water...and watch your footage...and smile.

RED One's flexibility and utility are amazing...the camera can be as complicated or as simple as you want to make it. No matter what your background is, or whether you do cine style, EFP style, and what field workflow you're comfortable with, you can find a comfort zone in working with RED One. I do both a film style and TV/video style field workflows, depending on the project needs, and RED One affords me that flexibility.

[Rocco Schult]

How can he take your statement out of context when he quoted the whole thing?...
Does EVERY thread here have to devolve into "Fuck whatever the actual topic is, RED RULES WOO!" I hope not. I'd like to actually, you know, TALK about some of these topics instead of just dismissing them in manic bouts of cheerleading.

Wise words my friend. Cannot have been put any better.

[Greg Voevodsky]

By the way, it's very hard and competitive for film students to get a FREE Panavision "rental." Otherwise, Panavision would be out of business with all the LA film students. Oh, and just cause you get the camera, don't forget the $1.00 a foot or second for film: neg, development, print. :-)

And having shot 35mm film on an Arri... doing 1 minute takes at $100 a take with actors forgetting their lines at 3am in the morning, I won't be morning the death of film one bit... when 4k takes over - kinda like optical prints.

Likewise, when I started non-linear editing - I couldn't wait to take the old flatbead and moviola out to the gun range and execute those #@%$#$ - they loved to nibble on my film - only to have the projector eat it good at a screening. Oh, I wish I had some weird line nobody can see in a digital projection.

And for the Aussi - don't become politically correct, that's why we love your country and this forum... it's like shrimp on the barbie... a bit spicy.

[IAN SUN]

That's one field workflow...and we've shot a fair amount that way with RED #8.

But alternately we've been doing extensively for the past two months, in 4k and more recently in 2k, this field workflow:

#1. Make sure your flange focal distance is calibrated correctly (the newly announced PL mount should make this even easier).
#2. Shoot it like video, don't use a light meter, use the 100IRE zebra in RED One to set exposure, protecting for the highlights, and focus visually using the 2x image magnification button on the side of RED One - using no tape measure at all.
#3 Keep shooting - like video - a WYSIWYG electronic camera
#4. Drink water...and watch your footage...and smile.

RED One's flexibility and utility are amazing...the camera can be as complicated or as simple as you want to make it. No matter what your background is, or whether you do cine style, EFP style, and what field workflow you're comfortable with, you can find a comfort zone in working with RED One. I do both a film style and TV/video style field workflows, depending on the project needs, and RED One affords me that flexibility.

That is very comforting to hear Giggy, having had a chance to work with some R3D files I totally agree. RED is looking like a better investment everyday!

[Finner]

Panavision has always treated me like gold and I can not say enough good things about them. If you had a good relationship with Panavision in the past I do not see renting gear as a problem. I have already done it for a red shoot. Now you may not get as good a deal on the equipment as you would if they rented you body and all. Overall Panavision is a bussiness and a very good one at that they are there to make money.

If you have no past relationships with panavision or other rental companies good luck just walking in and leaving with $200,000 worth of glass and accesories. It's not like a thrifty car rental outlet.

[jimhare]

Hey Jim. I'm curious as to how close you were to the screen? Were you unusually close?

I was about 7 meters from the screen, and the screen itself was probably about 5 meters diagonal. It's the preview screen at Animal Logic.

Pretty sure the playback source was D5.

Jim

[jimhare]

This sounds suspiciously like an HD-level scaler not being quite up to the task of scaling a picture. Do you watch Rove on Sundays? Watch Peter Helliar's "petespace" segment - when they do the scaling to put Pete in the little box in the graphic, there's a similar bad tearing effect - is it the same?

I always thought that was intentional to make it look like a web clip! No, not really like that, more like interlace breakup.

No one else seemed to even notice it so it must just be me.

Jim

[jimhare]

When I saw Panavision project their Genesis footage at Cinegear, I didn't see any of the issues you mention. It sounds like someone else has screwed up somewhere....

Very well could be. That's why I asked on the day if it was inherent, and if so, would anyone shoot differently. I was most amazed that no one else seemed to notice it. I believe I'm unusually forgiving when it comes to picture, but it jumped off the screen to me.

Not looking to stir anything up here, I honestly want to know what it was!

Cheers,

Jim

[jimhare]

mate you don't need to making an impression..... you're a soon to be red owner! **** panavision!... their one of the reasons you haven't been able to make films like this yourself

Good on'ya Khristian! I understood what you meant.

Cheers,

Jim

[Christian Edwards]

Good on'ya Khristian! I understood what you meant.

Cheers,

Jim
Thanks Jim, i knew you would ,it must just be my careless Australian dialect;-)
did you get the chance to seeing a red shoot in action with panavision and animal logic at fox, i read something about this on the anzrug ?

[number6]

That's one field workflow...and we've shot a fair amount that way with RED #8.

But alternately we've been doing extensively for the past two months, in 4k and more recently in 2k, this field workflow:

#1. Make sure your flange focal distance is calibrated correctly (the newly announced PL mount should make this even easier).
#2. Shoot it like video, don't use a light meter, use the 100IRE zebra in RED One to set exposure, protecting for the highlights, and focus visually using the 2x image magnification button on the side of RED One - using no tape
measure at all.
#3 Keep shooting - like video - a WYSIWYG electronic camera
#4. Drink water...and watch your footage...and smile.

RED One's flexibility and utility are amazing...the camera can be as complicated or as simple as you want to make it. No matter what your background is, or whether you do cine style, EFP style, and what field workflow you're comfortable with, you can find a comfort zone in working with RED One. I do both a film style and TV/video style field workflows, depending on the project needs, and RED One affords me that flexibility.

You probably have no idea how this makes me feel. While not being intimidated by the prospect, I have wondered how much of my time would be spent becoming a camera master. Now I know that I can still get something out that is respectable without constantly having to think about the camera.

It sounds as though shooting with RED can be more about lens and to a lesser degree, lighting. And while this is probably not an out-of-the-box video camera, it appears it is also not a "mainframe computer" out-of-the-box camera.

Thanks for the clear-headed post... (must be the water)

[Steve Gibby]

You probably have no idea how this makes me feel. While not being intimidated by the prospect, I have wondered how much of my time would be spent becoming a camera master. Now I know that I can still get something out that is respectable without constantly having to think about the camera.

It sounds as though shooting with RED can be more about lens and to a lesser degree, lighting. And while this is probably not an out-of-the-box video camera, it appears it is also not a "mainframe computer" out-of-the-box camera.

Thanks for the clear-headed post... (must be the water)

Thanks number6. Glad that first-hand insight helped you...

For a more in-depth view of my take on RED One usage, see the thread I opened this morning entitled: "Impressions of RED #8"

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5495

[number6]

Thanks number6. Glad that first-hand insight helped you...

For a more in-depth view of my take on RED One usage, see the thread I opened this morning entitled: "Impressions of RED #8"

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5495

Been there, read that, liked it!

[jimhare]

Thanks Jim, i knew you would ,it must just be my careless Australian dialect;-)
did you get the chance to seeing a red shoot in action with panavision and animal logic at fox, i read something about this on the anzrug ?

Hey Khristian,

Yes I did! It was fantastic. I read about it at the last minute and spoke to Mike. It was 3 times oversubscribed but Mike invited me as his personal guest. Nice guy! Shooting and watching the RED footage with those talented guys was a great learning experience for me. Also got to get some important workflow questions answered, most of which have since appeared on the user list.

Jim :innocent: