Impressions of RED #8

[Steve Gibby]

After two months of using the camera in a myriad of locations, styles, genres, and lens/accessory setups, one thing is very clear to me: the camera can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it (or need to make it) depending on the job at hand. It's equally at home surrounded by a huge crew of film style people armed with measuring tapes, light meters and grip - and a single person shooting mobile EFP style production. How do I know? Because RED #8 has been used widely at both these extremes - and every level in between.

I guarantee you that at this point there is nobody on the planet, including RED Team, who have put a RED camera in as many different setups, styles, genres, and field production workflows as me and my crews have with RED #8. Here's the usage list for RED #8 so far in real world productions:

Styles
Cine style (including film style), EFP (electronic field production)

Genres
Features, commercials, television, business media, educational, sports, documentary, stock footage, nature

Skill Sets
3D, aerials, underwater, jibs, tripods, stabilization units, shoulder held, hand held, POV, dollies, remote controlled helicopter

Field Workflows
Manual film style (tape measures, light meters, focus pullers, etc.), TV/video electronic style (WYSIWYG using RED’s electronics only as aids to exposure and focusing), every gradient in between these two extremes.

Lenses Used (multiple lenses of each type used)
S35 primes, S35 zooms, 35mm still, B4 2/3” HD

Resolutions
4k and 2k in every frame rate available for each


Summary
Since 2005 when I jumped aboard the RED train, I’ve viewed RED One as a Swiss Army Knife of a camera system. The good news to me: that exactly what a working RED One camera is. All of the above has been accomplished without all the capabilities of the camera even having been enabled yet! You can get as deep into menus as you want/need with RED One, and make it as complicated as you want/need. Conversely, anyone with a reasonable amount of film, TV/video, or DSLR still photo experience can shoot with RED One right out of the box if you simply have the aptitude to turn the camera on, navigate the menus, use the electronics, frame a shot, focus, expose correctly, manage your media (CF cards), and hit record. Using RED One isn’t rocket science…but you can make it so if you want to or need to for complicated projects. The core basics of using RED One are: set the camera up (lenses & accessories) for what you need on your project, focus accurately, and expose correctly. Focusing can be achieved by manual measurement/follow focus marks/focus puller, or alternately by using the electronic aid of simply using the 2x image magnification button on the side of the camera and sight focusing (flange focal distance or back focus must be accurate). When Graeme’s Magic Focus is fully enabled, that will add significantly to the electronic focus tool set available for RED One. Exposure can be set accurately by either using a hand held meter, or alternately using Red One’s electronics (zebra, histogram, etc.). For mobile EFP work, I’ve been easily sight focusing in 4k and 2k using the 2x image magnification, and easily achieving correct exposure for REDCODE RAW by simply using zebras and protecting for the highlights. Any DSLR shooter who has shot a lot of RAW on a CMOS sensor, and naturally has focused a lot in 35mm, will easily adapt to RED One, where you’re also shooting RAW and usually focusing 35mm lenses – you can even use your 35mm still lenses if you choose. Focusing 35mm cine lenses and using a FF will just take some practice.

RED One is not just a cine style camera – it’s also an EFP style camera. I knew that before I received RED #8, and I’ve proved that ever since (see usage lists above). RED One is not just a film style field workflow camera system – it can easily be an electronic TV/video field workflow style what-you-see-is-what-you-get (WYSIWYG) camera system. I’ve proved that in real world usage (see usage lists above). It’s fine if you just want to use RED One in a narrow niche or group of niches that it is capable of, but for me and my crews, we’ll use RED One in every possible scenario it is capable of – not to prove a point or for ego, but rather for the sake of expanding our skill sets, and because I’m also a businessman who can’t bring myself to bypass potential revenue that can be generated by this hyper-flexible, multi-capable camera system.

Using RED One isn’t rocket science – though you can make it so if you want to or need to.

Using RED One isn’t just for “experts” – though many experts will undoubtedly use RED One.

Using RED One can be very simple – with potentially excellent results.

Using RED One doesn’t require you to drill down through all the available menus, in fact you can successfully use RED One by using just a few of the menus necessary for what you’re doing.

Using RED One can be a cine style experience or an EFP style experience – whatever you need at the time.

Lastly…using RED One is way fun!!


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Hopefully the above insight I've provided will answer some practical use questions for some of you, and lay to rest the fears and prejudices of others. I work professionally in a broad range of cine style and EFP style environments. That said - RED One is the first camera system I’ve used in a 30-year career that can be lensed, accessorized, and utilized for basically everything I do (see the lists above) – and excel at each. As expected, there have been some early workarounds and bugs - which have been reported to RED - and RED is refining the cameras. RED One isn't and won't ever be a perfect camera system - that's an impossibility. But even partially enabled it is amazingly capable, and when it is fully enabled you can rest assured that me and my crews will be adding to the usage lists above and pushing the limits - of which RED One will probably have very few.

My hat is off in respect to the other early users of RED One cameras - you've cranked out some amazing images so far - let's all keep pushing the limits outward!

[Tom Lowe]

first.

[Jason Francois]

Somebody's been a busy boy. :)

Thanks for your take on the camera, it's inspirational to hear.

keep cranking.

J.

[Randall Nott]

Thanks, Gibby!

So much focus gets put here on cine-style shooting that the EFP potential gets overlooked. That said, what are the imperfections you are finding from the EFP side and what are your work-arounds?

[Babu Kantamneni]

Thanks Gibby.I was worried about my newby abilities and all the experts talk in Lingo on this I never heard of.
Now I feel I can also use this camera!
babu

[Gabicam]

My RED friends, I would like to know some info about the quality of the RED LENSES, specially the Zoom 18-50mm f 2.8, are them close to Zeiss?
Gabriel

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks, Gibby!

So much focus gets put here on cine-style shooting that the EFP potential gets overlooked. That said, what are the imperfections you are finding from the EFP side and what are your work-arounds?

For a summary of EFP style ideas, visit the EFP/ENG and RED forum on RED User
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8

Background
Electronic field production (EFP) style can actually be done using any of the lens types that RED One uses: S35, 35mm still, S16, and B4 2/3”. With media convergence there is often no clear dividing lines between cine style and EFP style. A lot of features, TV programs, and video productions use multiple shooting styles and thus multiple types of lenses and setups. In non-union environments large numbers of motion media industry workers are learning multiple camera usage skill sets. IMO to be successful and competitive in the near future, DPs, cinematographers, videographers, and camera operators will need spread their skill sets to match what technology is now (and will be) enabling. Many projects will be, and are now, calling for expanded camera skills that require shooters to change seamlessly between cine and EFP styles of production. Good progressive DPs and shooters, like David Mullen or Matt Uhry for example, can quickly and effectively switch between cine style and EFP style shooting. That places them in greater demand – and separates them from their peers. Those who don’t continually spread their skill sets and familiarity with equipment that enables them to do so, will eventually be out-competed in the job marketplace by those who do. Darwin was right – those who don’t evolve in skills will ultimately become professionally extinct.

An affordable, multi-genre, multi-style, flexible camera system like RED One not only fits into that paradigm, but in many ways enables and encourages it. It now makes sense to own a high-end camera system – not just rent one.

Specifics:

EFP with B4 2/3” HD zooms
B4 2/3” lenses used on RED One will require the use of a RED B4 adaptor. If you own a some quality B4 lenses, or have the ability to rent them, and do EFP production genres (or portions thereof) for which B4 lenses are the best choice for field workflow, then by all means use them. Good B4 lenses are expensive. I’ve used several on RED #8, ranging in cost from $26k up to $80k USD. The B4 adaptor spreads the image to cover 2k. The RED B4 adaptor I’ve been using is built well, the glass seems to be good, and causes no significant artifacts in the images. It does soften the image slightly, and I’d suggest using HD zooms on 1x magnification, rather than 2x magnification. 2x can soften the image further. For medium to small screen purposes the B4 2/3” image from REDCODE RAW 2k, with the RED B4 adaptor, and a good B4 2/3” HD EFP/ENG zoom are excellent. That’s not a setup I’d use for large screen productions though. The cool thing about using that setup on RED One is that RED One has 12v auxiliary power and RS232 buses, so you can power the zoom rocker switch when using those lenses. Traditional TV/video professionals will feel right at home with that setup, then they can also focus quickly using the 2x magnification button on the side of RED One, and set exposure quickly using RED One’s zebras, making sure to protect for the highlights. ND is a workaround, requiring either screw on filters, or use of a lightweight clip-on matte box and drop in filters. This B4 2/3” HD EFP/ENG zoom setup works quite well for a range of mobile non-hardlined EFP production genres.

EFP with other lens types (S35, 35mm still, S16, 2/3” cine)
Certain creative montages, cinematic aesthetic, shallow DOF shots in EFP productions can be shot with S35 cine and 35mm still lenses. Both will usually require the use of a follow focus and matte box. Large heavy lenses decrease EFP mobility though. 35mm still lenses are a workaround there. The emergence of 35mm adaptors for RED One, including the Birger adaptors, will enable a new range of affordable, mobile production with RED One. Many types of EFP productions can benefit from S35mm cine, 35mm still, S16 cine, and 2/3” cine lens use – again, the variables are: what you’re trying to shoot, mobility needs, budget, crew skill sets, and aesthetic needs of the shots. 2k shots using S35 and 35mm still lenses will look better than 2k shots using S16 and B4 2/3” lenses – S16 because the glass isn’t usually quite as good as 35mm, and 2/3” because it requires the use of more glass in the adaptor for use with a CMOS sensor like RED’s and spreads the image 6% from 1080 to cover 2k. Choose EFP lens type depending on the end use of the production you’re shooting.

EVF and LCD
To do a broad range of EFP shooting, the EVF is a necessity. Many shoulder held and tripod shots really call for the use of an EVF. That said, many other EFP shots call for the use of an LCD. Examples would be hand held high angel, hand held low angle, tripod ped high, stabilization system use, POV use, jib use, and many more. Me and my crews will use both the EVF and LCD regularly to do what we do.

CF
If the EFP shots you’re doing are in 4k, then a variable bit rate of around 27 Mbytes/s will limit 8GB card storage to around 5 to 7.5 minutes, depending on complexity of subject matter, and frame rate used. If you’re shooting EFP in 2k, then the storage on an 8GB CF card will vary between 20 minutes and as high as 27 minutes for less complex subject matter. A MacBook Pro and good FW800 (or 400) CF reader will allow you to dump off the data quickly. In 2k, with the storage itemized above, long-form EFP production with RED One is a reality now. When 16GB and 32GB cards are in use, even better.

Support
For mobile EFP, lately I’ve been using a Miller Arrow HD (Arrow 55 head) on single stage alloy sticks, with good results. Others may choose an O’Connor 1030HD or HDS, Sachtler, Cartoni, or Vinten. Once you get above $5k USD for a tripod system, it’s hard to find a bad head/sticks combination. Match it up to your EFP needs and you’re set. That said, keep your weight and mobility cine style needs in mind when you choose, because you’ll want a versatile tripod system if you do a broad range of EFP and cine style shooting. Comfortable shoulder pads are a must if you do a lot of shoulder held work. The RED shoulder pad is not an "all day" solution for comfort, so look for a 3rd party pad system for added comfort.



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Hope the above insight helps you in approaching your EFP productions with RED One. IMO the best shooters are the ones who can switch quickly and seamlessly between cine style and EFP style as projects demand – and an increasing number of productions demand both styles from crews. IMO the best directors and DPs are the ones who are facile in the demands of both cine style and EFP style production, and know when to shift gears to move over to either style on a production.

Hope this info helps you…

[Steve Gibby]

My RED friends, I would like to know some info about the quality of the RED LENSES, specially the Zoom 18-50mm f 2.8, are them close to Zeiss?
Gabriel

There have been a few threads on the lens test forum about the RED 18-50 since RED first shipped them. I've owned the RED 18-50 zoom since August 31, and used it extensively in the productions I itemized earlier on this thread.

Early on we projected the lens and found that it generated an apparent 200 lp/mm (line pairs per millimeter). If you're not familiar with what that means, in simple terms it means the lens resolves quite well. We also noticed little bending in the frame edges, and very little chromatic aberration (CA) generated.

In another recent test we shot a burst chart using the 18-50 zoom, output that chart to a 4k TIFF file, and projected that file onto a big screen using a Sony 4k projector. The results were an apparent horizontal resolution of 1,200+ lines. Those in the room agreed it was a very good burst chart - indeed one of the better ones they've seen.

After all the left-brained tests, the bottom line is how the images look in actual production. I'm happy to report that the images from my RED 18-50 zoom, shot in 4k RC RAW, and projected using a Sony 4k projector onto a big screen, are very crisp and clean.

IMO the performance to cost ratio for the RED 18-50 zoom are excellent. The images from the lens match lenses that cost significantly more. If I had to choose just one lens from my kit that I had to leave on RED One that would enable a wide range of quality images, the 18-50 would be that lens.

The 18-50 zoom is light (about 2.5 lbs), short (about 5"), and fits really well into a mobile cine or EFP workflow. By the way, it's a good lens to fly on a stabilization system setup.

Now, with the above in mind, the 18-50 zoom isn't a perfect lens - there's no such thing as a perfect lens. There is such a thing as real good lenses that don't have a lot of flaws. The 18-50 is one of those. It breathes slightly, and the lens barrel physically telescopes outward as you zoom. These are imperfections I can certainly live with - especially considering its high performance to cost ratio. This lens has very good glass and a decent housing.

Am I happy with the performance of my RED 18-50 CF zoom? Absolutely...

Does its performance to cost ratio ($6.5k USD) stand out? Absolutely...

Would I recommend the lens to others? Absolutely...

Is it a good enough lens to use for the big screen and naturally then for the small screen? Absolutely…

Is the RED 18-50 zoom close to Zeiss? Yes, some Zeiss, others not quite there. (LART should reveal more on this question)

Hope this helps...

[PaulClements]

Have you shot anything with the Canon mounts yet Gibby? It's been a while since you picked it up and I'm sure there are a host of people who have been eager to see footage of still lenses used on RedOne. I've not noticed anything posted as yet.

Paul

[Steve Gibby]

Have you shot anything with the Canon mounts yet Gibby? It's been a while since you picked it up and I'm sure there are a host of people who have been eager to see footage of still lenses used on RedOne. I've not noticed anything posted as yet.

Paul

We put a non-functional Birger Canon prototype on RED #8 for the pics I posted on RED User. We used it with #8 for measuring and designing the new water housings that Mike Hastings was/is making for us. The electronics were non-functional but we shot some quick manual footage with a Canon 10-22 zoom. Looked good, but we're not ready to post anything from that yet. We'll wait until we get the fully-functional Birger Canon prototype and then give it a full testing. Hopefully that will be soon and Erik Widding of Birger can join us. When I say "us" I'm referring to me and my production partner Ken Corben ("Sharkguy"), along with the associates of our new company (GibCor).

Personally I think the 35mm still lens results are going to be a pleasant surprise to a lot of people. Modern 35mm still lenses are naturally constructed and coated to dance weel with high megapixel CMOS sensors - like Mysterium. They should easily be able to resolve RED One images very well. The workarounds will be in the accessories that enable easy motion media work with them: Birger adaptors, good FF, good matte boxes, RED Grip, RED Motors, etc. If they can be made to easily and effectively function in the demanding environment of professional cine style and EFP style production, then they will be a very cool and affordable option for RED One users.

[Milan Nikolic]

Thanks Giby, it is very informative report and, as before, we all appreciate your work.

[TimPipher]

Gibby, I just want to thank you again for your wonderfully valuable posts. In the unlikely event I can ever be of service to you, you can be sure that I'd be honored to do it!

[JD Holloway]

Thanks Gibby,

Hopefuly you will be able to comment on workflow soon.
I'd love to hear what you think.

J.

[Steve Gibby]

Glad to help guys...

With all the projects I've been on since receiving #8, I've been slammed for time, so I post less here than before I got the camera.

When I do get a little time, I'm happy to share my input. I've learned a lot from the RED User community since it was formed last year, and its always a pleasure to give back to the community.

[Eryc Tramonn]

Glad to help guys...

With all the projects I've been on since receiving #8, I've been slammed for time, so I post less here than before I got the camera.

When I do get a little time, I'm happy to share my input. I've learned a lot from the RED User community since it was formed last year, and its always a pleasure to give back to the community.

Yeah Gibby, you're a wealth of knowledge, a veritable cornucopia of grey cells. And your willingness to share is greatly appreciated; the insight you've provided has definitely helped as I continue forming my opinion about the competing camera systems.

[Dave Dessel]

Steve,

Thanks again for another informative post. Sometimes I think I'd like to shoot 2K for the frame rate options, and longer recording times. Is it possible to use 35mm lenses for the shallow depth of field while recording 2K? A chart on Red's site seems to infer that this might not be not possible.

Best,

-Dave Dessel

www.daviddessel.com

[Jared VanLeuven]

Great review and insights Steve.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Any DSLR shooter who has shot a lot of RAW on a CMOS sensor, and naturally has focused a lot in 35mm, will easily adapt to RED One, where you’re also shooting RAW and usually focusing 35mm lenses – you can even use your 35mm still lenses if you choose. Focusing 35mm cine lenses and using a FF will just take some practice.



So you think a guy with 30 years photo experience and 25 years shooting film & video will have a problem? You are using a demo EVF? I was going for that
and will get the LCD later.

[Kevin Lang]

The pics I saw of the camera being used with the B4 mount and eng lens looks cumbersome at best. It's funny you put a 25-250 on a Pro35 with a Varicam and it looks cumbersome and then vice versa on the Red.

[Eryc Tramonn]

Yeah, I shoot stills and don't really see what the big deal is with motion capture.

I can't wait to get my RED so I can shoot under candlelight while walking into my subject that is ten feet away. This is the greatest point and shoot camera ever devised.

[Steve Gibby]

The pics I saw of the camera being used with the B4 mount and eng lens looks cumbersome at best. It's funny you put a 25-250 on a Pro35 with a Varicam and it looks cumbersome and then vice versa on the Red.

Cumbersome? The weight of the rig in the EFP setup in the pics below is 23 pounds, and the length and ergonomics are almost exactly the same as the myriad of the EFP/ENG camera systems I've used for decades professionally when I've shot EFP/ENG: Betacam, F900, Varicam, SDX900, HPX500, and on and on. In the B4 2/3" EFP configuration in my attached pics it also uses exactly the same lenses that those cameras use in an EFP configuration.

I followed the link on your signature to your web site. Basically every camera system you have pictured on your site looks more cumbersome than the RED One EFP setup in my pics.

I guess by now you can figure out that I don't understand where you're coming from with your cumbersome comment - much less agree with it. Perhaps you're just worried about RED's EFP capabilities eroding away the EFP market for the Varicams you own?

[jaadgy akanni]

I agree with you Gibby. There's nothing cumbersome about that setup. Looks quite nice and ergonomically sound to me. More power to you!

[mdo]

Thanks for again sharing your expertise. Very valuable info.

[Brice Ansel]

After two months of using the camera in a myriad of locations, styles, genres, and lens/accessory setups, one thing is very clear to me: the camera can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it (or need to make it) depending on the job at hand. Styles
Cine style (including film style), EFP (electronic field production)

Using RED One isn’t just for “experts” – though many experts will undoubtedly use RED One.

Using RED One can be very simple – with potentially excellent result.
It's good to read that! Coming from a professional like you, I'll take that for a serious encouragement to jump on that new techno without worying to much.
Thank you MR Gibby
Brice

[Kevin Lang]

Cumbersome? The weight of the rig in the EFP setup in the pics below is 23 pounds, and the length and ergonomics are almost exactly the same as the myriad of the EFP/ENG camera systems I've used for decades professionally when I've shot EFP/ENG: Betacam, F900, Varicam, SDX900, HPX500, and on and on. In the B4 2/3" EFP configuration in my attached pics it also uses exactly the same lenses that those cameras use in an EFP configuration.

I followed the link on your signature to your web site. Basically every camera system you have pictured on your site looks more cumbersome than the RED One EFP setup in my pics.

I guess by now you can figure out that I don't understand where you're coming from with your cumbersome comment - much less agree with it. Perhaps you're just worried about RED's EFP capabilities eroding away the EFP market for the Varicams you own?

Actually after seeing these pics I have changed my mind! The EVF makes the differance, the pics I saw earlier was with the lcd which looked very uncomfortable.

[Andrew M.]

Steve, thanks a lot for all your info, also you write very well and clear with lot of conviction.
I mentioned it before but I will repeat, you should write a book. Just collect all your writings and give it to someone to smooth it out.
Even better you and David Mullen together should write “Digital movie making for artists and professionals”
Thanks! again for your valuable info, we do really appreciate, even more, knowing how busy you are.
Andrew

[Kevin Lang]

I guess by now you can figure out that I don't understand where you're coming from with your cumbersome comment - much less agree with it. Perhaps you're just worried about RED's EFP capabilities eroding away the EFP market for the Varicams you own?

Man sorry I was not meaning to attack you it was a observation, as far my concern about the Red eroding away the EFP from the Varicam I would welcome that as I have made a significant investment in Red and the Varicam is paid for.

Now as far as the Red taking over EFP I think that is going to take a considerable amount of time as I am sure you have seen the EFP/ENG market is slow to change especially a tapeless camera.

[Steve Gibby]

Now as far as the Red taking over EFP I think that is going to take a considerable amount of time as I am sure you have seen the EFP/ENG market is slow to change especially a tapeless camera.

I produce/direct/shoot programs and series that air nationally on 12 different broadcast and cable networks - and several of them have contacted me recently (not vice versa) about me coming to their headquarters to demonstrate RED #8 for them and brief them on how I think RED One can be integrated into their productions - something I have a lot of answers for. There are not enough hours in the day for me right now, but I'm in the process of scheduling those meeting with several networks. IMO RED One will make inroads into the network EFP market faster than most people think. EFP style production is the largest single portion of motion media production worldwide each year - and IMO consequently the largest single potential market for RED One.

I'm also an annually invited judge for multiple national Emmy awards competitions - Sports, Primetime, Daytime, and others. As I judge the shows, direction and camera work for those Emmy Awards, I've noticed a distinct increase in the past four years in the use of digital acquisition for certain shows, montages, and segments that reflect filmic, cinematic production values - and many of those are winning the awards. These are EFP genre that are increasingly looking for 35mm-quality values, but want to (and usually do) shoot digital. IMO RED One will nail this market demand...

I'm a 30-year veteran of national television production - and I think it is going to surprise even many of the other TV veterans how fast RED One makes inroads particularly into the non-hardlined EFP production market - and the market for commercials, business media, etc.

ENG is a different story. Legacy investments in ENG equipment will me milked to their bitter end - but ENG isn't RED One's market - but EFP is.

-----------------

In spite of all the EFP things said above, I also work extensively in cine style production. RED One can easily be re-lensed and re-accessorized for cine style of EFP style, thus to me there are very few limits on what types of projects I can contract with my RED One cameras. If others see tighter limitations in RED One usage, IMO they haven't seriously analyzed RED One, don't have the experience or motivation to venture out into other genres, or they're wearing a union straightjacket that won't allow them to even touch another part of the camera they're working with - much less spread their skill sets out to other skill sets, crew positions, production styles, geographical areas, and genres/sub-genres of production.


-----------------


The timeworn cliché "Thinking outside the box" needs to be goosed into hyperdrive when brainstorming what's possible with RED. Re-read the equipment/skill set/style/genre lists of the productions me and my crews have already done with RED #8 in less than two months. In that same time, many of the other early camera adopters have simply shot narrative cinema "inside the box". That's fine, if that's what turns them on. But my crews and me push the limits on EFP style and cine style productions. That's what tweaks us. There is no area of RED One capability we don't intend to push to its limits. To each their own...

I don’t know you Klang, but hopefully you do some cool work and are seeking to expand your horizons. You'll really enjoy your RED's! Their capabilities will give you a lot of fresh ideas for projects. :biggrin:

[Kevin Lang]

I don’t know you Klang, but hopefully you do some cool work and are seeking to expand your horizons. You'll really enjoy your RED's! Their capabilities will give you a lot of fresh ideas for projects. :biggrin:

Obviously I have gotten off on the wrong foot with you! I simply made a rash comment about a pic I saw and then openly stated I was in the wrong! I agree with what you are saying you dont have to sell me I already bought 2 of these F'n things I am simply making conversation on how the market is slow to change!

[Darwin]

Steve,

Thanks again for another informative post. Sometimes I think I'd like to shoot 2K for the frame rate options, and longer recording times. Is it possible to use 35mm lenses for the shallow depth of field while recording 2K? A chart on Red's site seems to infer that this might not be not possible.

Best,

-Dave Dessel

www.daviddessel.com

Hello Dave,

I'm not Steve...But I will answer your question. Yes and NO.. With a 35mm lens you can record both 2k windowed and scaled, when scaled is offered (not yet available) No, you will not get the same depth of field in windowed 2k because you are using a smaller center portion of the sensor. In affect windowing reduces the size of the sensor. Now 2k scaled.. Yes, you get all the benefits of 4k only so far as your shallow depth of field, cause now your using 4k worth of sensor. It's more to do with the size of the sensor then the glass you use..Hope that helps.

[TimPipher]

when scaled is offered (not yet available)

Does anyone have a sense as to where the scaled capability falls in RED's priority list? In other words, what's your guess as to when will it have 2K scaled capability?

To me it seems important because it would allow me to save some serious money by cutting down on the number of zoom lenses I'd need.

[Steve Gibby]

Obviously I have gotten off on the wrong foot with you! I simply made a rash comment about a pic I saw and then openly stated I was in the wrong! I agree with what you are saying you dont have to sell me I already bought 2 of these F'n things I am simply making conversation on how the market is slow to change!

Naw...everything's cool...

My last long post wasn't really pointed at you at all, but rather just to help inform some of the less experienced guys who may read it as to what the possibilities with RED One are.

The market has been historically slow to change, but IMO RED One will help bring about a more rapid change than we've usually seen.

Enjoy your RED cameras...

[Tim Lüdin]

Hi Tim
Very good point. A lot of people around me ask the same question. For many, its a deal breaker. If RED can make 2K work in scaled mode it would be da bomb.

I'm also checking out used super 16 lenses because of the windowed thing. RED is getting more and more expensive.
But don't get me wrong. It's still cheap for what you get.

100fps in scaled 2K scaled mode. That would rock.

Cheers
Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Steve, thanks a lot for all your info, also you write very well and clear with lot of conviction.
I mentioned it before but I will repeat, you should write a book. Just collect all your writings and give it to someone to smooth it out.
Even better you and David Mullen together should write “Digital movie making for artists and professionals”
Thanks! again for your valuable info, we do really appreciate, even more, knowing how busy you are.
Andrew

Thanks for those kind words Andrew. Much appreciated...

David Mullen is an acquaintance of mine who I respect highly. I'd enjoy team writing with David. BTW, a while ago I invited him to join our L.A. RED Test (LART) team, and he accepted the invitation. Hopefully his busy production schedule will allow him to attend the testing sessions. His expertise would enhance the testing for sure.

[Steve Gibby]

2k scaled would seriously rock...

I've voiced my support for it since it was first mentioned by RED. That said, I also voiced my support for an alternate RGB build that could be loaded into the camera quickly via firmware.

Coding firmware builds is expensive and time consuming, but the ability to have either a RAW profile or an RGB profile loaded into the camera, depending on the project at hand needs, would be amazing.

We'll see...

I wouldn't guess at a timeline for RED introducing scaled 2k. They've got a ton on their plate already...but I'd guess scaled 2k is somewhere on their radar...but no guess on timeframe for it...

[Tim Lüdin]

Yeah Gibby

I think so too. RED will surely want to make 2K scaled happen but it will take some more time. Maybe summer next year.
But with stuff like that, Sony and Panasonic will have to get their act together faster than they realy want.

Cheers
Tim

[Steve Gibby]

Clarifications:

B4 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zoom lens use is a small portion of our overall field workflow. When a small screen project calls for 2k origination for higher frame rates, and a B4 2/3" HD zoom is the most appropriate lens set up for that project, we use it.

That said, when a project is for the big screen, and lower frame rates (30 fps on down) are acceptable for what we're shooting, we use 35mm cine primes and zooms. If we need higher frame rates (example: for slo-mos), and the project is destined for the big screen, we use 35mm cine primes and zooms and shoot in 2k. A 2k image from a cine prime or zoom, or for that matter a 35mm still lens, will look somewhat better than a 2k image from a B4 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zoom, simply because you need to introduce more glass in the form of the B4 converter to spread the image to cover 2k. The image looks good - but not as good as 2k shot with 35mm glass.

Of the overall volume of shooting we do, I'd say that 80% of it is with 35mm glass, cine & still (coming soon). The remainder is shot using a RED B4 adaptor/2/3" HD EFP-ENG zooms as pictured previously in this thread. We do a certain percentage of mobile EFP projects where high frame rate 2k with 2/3" HD zooms is the best choice. Example: some sports productions we do.

When we get the Birger Canon adaptor, and combine it with some Canon lenses, it will be interesting to see how it affects our setup choices for certain projects. Also, the RED 18-50 zoom, and 50-150 zoom, with a RED Grip and a RED Motor, may be real useful for some of our mobile EFP work. We also have a very good quality Optex 2x extender we may test out with that 50-150 setup, thus making it an f5.6 100-300 zoom, with RED Grip and RED Motor capability. We've previously tested the RED 18-50 with the Optex 2x, making it a f5.6 36x100 zoom, with some pretty good results.

You'll notice S16 lenses absent from what I've mentioned. We don't own any S16 lenses. There are some good ones out there, but if we want cine glass to cover 2k, we'll simply use our 35mm lenses.

BTW...a large portion of what we shoot is in natural light.

Fun times ahead for sure!

[Emanuel A.]

Congrats and thanks for your input Steve!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Gibby have you done any tests like:

2k Cropped @80fps w 1/160th of a second shutter

vs.

4k @ 25fps (current max?) w/ 1/160th of a second shutter retimed (with something like Kronos to 80fps)?

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby have you done any tests like:

2k Cropped @80fps w 1/160th of a second shutter

vs.

4k @ 25fps (current max?) w/ 1/160th of a second shutter retimed (with something like Kronos to 80fps)?

We've shot a lot of high frame rate 2k windowed, and naturally tons of 4k at the frame rates supported to 25fps. We haven't done the exact comparison test you mentioned, but I think it would be interesting for sure.

[David Battistella]

Following this thread. I just once again want to say thank you Gibby.

Now that I've seen the camera and workflow up close it's difficult to articulate how this technology is going to change things because once you have seen it in action it sort of forces you to redefine everything.

And at this moment it is a small sampling of what it will be.


david

[Kevin Lang]

Gibby have you done any tests like:

2k Cropped @80fps w 1/160th of a second shutter

vs.

4k @ 25fps (current max?) w/ 1/160th of a second shutter retimed (with something like Kronos to 80fps)?

I thought Jim said the most you could get out of the camera was 60fps.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I thought Jim said the most you could get out of the camera was 60fps.

Reading off the full sensor is limited to 60hz. But 2k cropped gets you up to 120hz max.

[Kevin Lang]

Reading off the full sensor is limited to 60hz. But 2k cropped gets you up to 120hz max.

Gotcha, thanks it gets hard to follow all this stuff sometimes. Can't wait to get the real hands on experience.

[Dave Dessel]

Gibby and Darwin,

Thanks for all of the insights and info regarding Red 2K shooting. These are truly exciting times with so many techincal and creative options available to us.

Best,

Dave Dessel

www.daviddessel.com

[David Battistella]

Are we all forgetting that we are talking about a 2k image recorded at up to 80fps in a beta software release.

Let's just take a moment to contemplate the fact that no other video or data based camera has been able to do more than 60fps (and certainly not with the ease with which it is accomplishe in RED.

David

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well... there is the phantom and it is an IT based camera and it smokes 80fps.

[David Battistella]

Well... there is the phantom and it is an IT based camera and it smokes 80fps.

Gavin,

You know better, but if you want to be facetious that is your choice. :_)

The phantom is a highly specialized tool. For clarity I was talking about choices in the current popular HD EFP cinema cameras like, XDCAM, F-900/950, varicam, HVX-200 etc.

David

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well Phantom is planning a Jpeg2k based aux recording brick as is Codex. The phantom cameras seem to have their sensor sorted out htey just need a good workflow/storage means. I wouldn't rule it out so quickly. Gibby's impresions are proof that an IT camera can be flexible in the field.

[David Battistella]

Well Phantom is planning a Jpeg2k based aux recording brick as is Codex. The phantom cameras seem to have their sensor sorted out htey just need a good workflow/storage means. I wouldn't rule it out so quickly. Gibby's impresions are proof that an IT camera can be flexible in the field.

Great!

Thanks for the info.

David

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby's impresions are proof that an IT camera can be flexible in the field.

Dino (RED #31) and a few others are also pushing the outer limits of the performance envelope for RED One. We're collectively finding that the pre-delivery statements by RED Team about the operational flexibility of RED One were an understatement. In retrospect of two months of heavy use of RED #8, IMO the key limits on the flexibility of RED One are the skill sets and attitudes of the users - the camera itself has very few inherent limitations.

[Steve Sherrick]

Dino (RED #31) and a few others are also pushing the outer limits of the performance envelope for RED One. We're collectively finding that the pre-delivery statements by RED Team about the operational flexibility of RED One were an understatement. In retrospect of two months of heavy use of RED #8, IMO the key limits on the flexibility of RED One are the skill sets and attitudes of the users - the camera itself has very few inherent limitations.
This answers a lot of questions for me Steve!

Steve

[Hrvoje Simic]

Thank you Gibby for sharing your experience. It's very valuable and we really appreciate this.

[TimPipher]

Gibby, one thing I've admired about you in your posts is that you've always talked more about opportunities to use a Red than limitations of the Red. You have proven that it will be a great camera for applications that others have said won't be ideal.

That's why I'm a little worried. With all the uses of the Red that you've proven will work, you also mention that the Red won't be a great camera for hard wired applications like a soap opera, on-stage sitcom, or other shows using a switcher. Unfortunately for me, that's precisely the main use I'll have for my three reserved cameras.

What problems do you forsee me having with a studio configuration? Now that you've used the camera, can you see work arounds?

As always, thanks!

[Tony Lorentzen]

Thanks for your report, Gibby... but... where's the footage? You know - proof is not in the pudding. Proof is in the footy ;-)

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for the kind words guys...glad to help…

TimPipher: RED One can be adapted for hardlined EFP workflows. The camera has most of the capability, with 12v auxiliary power, RS232, and dual link HD-SDI. Super Grips and RED Motors will help quite a bit also. What would need to be externally added on set or from the truck is return video, intercom, and a few other goodies. In time I believe RED One will start popping up on hardlined EFP productions. It will be the publicity about non-hardlined EFP productions, and subsequent experimentation by hardlined EFP entities that opens the door for that. You can do non-hardlined EFP with RED One easier than hardlined, simply because you have no significant things to add to the system to do so - although for some non-hardlined EFP (using cine lenses) the Super Grips and RED Motors would complete the equation.

tlorenzo: If you re-read the list of productions we've been busy on, we've barely had time to sleep, let alone post footage. Many of our projects are under NDA (non-disclosure agreement), so footage can't be posted, in fact on many we can't even disclose exactly where they are or with whom. When we could, in view of NDA and our mobility, we've posted written descriptions, JPEGs of equipment, frames, and yes we have posted footage (underwater, etc.). We don't need to prove anything to anyone in the industry, much less anyone on RED User. We're seasoned professionals with large resumes in national and international media, with shelves full of awards (Emmy Awards, etc.). Our performance in this industry doesn't need to be proven - it already has been for decades. If we say something looks good - you can take it to the bank - the studio and network executives we deal with on a daily basis have long since quit asking us for footage of everything we shoot or propose to them as proof of our talents or capabilities. We post here when we have time just because we like being part of this community. Where do you come off demanding footage from us? We'll post footage if and when we feel like it, and we have a break in our busy production schedule. I appreciate the desire to see footage, but I’m the wrong guy to make demands like that to. I’ve given an enormous amount of my valuable time free to this community every since it was formed, so I feel no guilt whatsoever about my contributions here – but it does irritate me very much when someone demands even more. I see certain members of this community do that to RED Team continually – no matter how much RED Team gives, some people here just demand more. Hope this answers your question tlorenzo.

[Peter Richardson]

Hey Gibby,

Thanks as always for your thorough (and well-informed!) comments and review. One question I have about the EVF: I've heard that there is a three-frame delay. Have you found this to be the case? Thanks!

Peter

[number6]

Gibby, looking forward to reading your thoughts on the new secret stuff Jim referred to on another thread.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Gibby, looking forward to reading your thoughts on the new secret stuff Jim referred to on another thread.

yeah we like secret stuff :)

[Tony Lorentzen]

tlorenzo: If you re-read the list of productions we've been busy on, we've barely had time to sleep, let alone post footage. Many of our projects are under NDA (non-disclosure agreement), so footage can't be posted, in fact on many we can't even disclose exactly where they are or with whom. When we could, in view of NDA and our mobility, we've posted written descriptions, JPEGs of equipment, frames, and yes we have posted footage (underwater, etc.). We don't need to prove anything to anyone in the industry, much less anyone on RED User. We're seasoned professionals with large resumes in national and international media, with shelves full of awards (Emmy Awards, etc.). Our performance in this industry doesn't need to be proven - it already has been for decades. If we say something looks good - you can take it to the bank - the studio and network executives we deal with on a daily basis have long since quit asking us for footage of everything we shoot or propose to them as proof of our talents or capabilities. We post here when we have time just because we like being part of this community. Where do you come off demanding footage from us? We'll post footage if and when we feel like it, and we have a break in our busy production schedule. I appreciate the desire to see footage, but I’m the wrong guy to make demands like that to. I’ve given an enormous amount of my valuable time free to this community every since it was formed, so I feel no guilt whatsoever about my contributions here – but it does irritate me very much when someone demands even more. I see certain members of this community do that to RED Team continually – no matter how much RED Team gives, some people here just demand more. Hope this answers your question tlorenzo.

Hold up for a second, Gibby. My post ended in a simley with a blink in the eye. I'm completely aware that you're working under NDAs and that you can't post footage for a lot of your projects - even if you had the time. Please don't read more into my post. I know that you're one of the most experienced guys here and surely you don't need to prove that - that's why I put the smiley there in the first place. :blush:

[Steve Gibby]

Hold up for a second, Gibby. My post ended in a simley with a blink in the eye. I'm completely aware that you're working under NDAs and that you can't post footage for a lot of your projects - even if you had the time. Please don't read more into my post. I know that you're one of the most experienced guys here and surely you don't need to prove that - that's why I put the smiley there in the first place. :blush:

Fair enough...busy day and didn't see the smiley. No worries...

A few times recently, like when we posted some quick still pics from footage and equipment setups, a few guys then complained here about us not posting footage. At a quick read, without seeing the smiley, I thought your post was another one of those.

Cheers...:biggrin:

[Steve Gibby]

One question I have about the EVF: I've heard that there is a three-frame delay. Have you found this to be the case?

I only used Stuart's EVF for a short while, so I'm not the best one to answer that. I didn't experience any noticeable delay when using the EVF. Stuart English would be a much better person to answer your question though.

[Nova Invicta]

The RED lenses are basically Digital Stills lenses likely from Sigma and as such things like breathing and telescoping point to that as in stills this doesnt matter but in motion pictures it does.
Most cinematographers that give a jot care MORE about the lenses than the camera itself as the camera will always be simply a capture device something missed by many to RED. Yes still lenses have always been used and used very well but its like comparing driving from Dallas to LA in a Scion or in a Rolls Royce.
Secondly the most important difference between 2/3" and 35mm in terms of lenses is the artistic use of depth of field. Changing 2/3" lenses with adaptors still does not give you 35mm type depth of field.
Lastly irrespective of what anyone is saying here across the site untill you have tested EVERYTHING out there in terms of lenses and given accurate MTF, Projection and viewed fair comparisions againts similar focal lenght lenses like I have been involved with no single stills lens yet produced comes close to professional cinematography lenses FOR FILM. In HD only some of the cinematography lenses are able to handle the different characteristics required to handle the different frequencies, chromatic abberations etc.
Modern digital still lenses are also not as fast as their film forebearers in general yet nearly all cinematography lenses are and again cinematographers use this advantage in shooting and adding drama to the story. I agree their no perfect lens and all lenses are a compromise but you get what you pay for in lenses far more than with cameras.

[Steve Sherrick]

The RED lenses are basically Digital Stills lenses likely from Sigma and as such things like breathing and telescoping point to that as in stills this doesnt matter but in motion pictures it does.

Is there a place where that has been confirmed by anyone? I have not used a Red lens yet, so I can't confirm or deny the characteristics of the lens, but it seems pretty bold to say they are just a Sigma lens repurposed. I'm not saying it's not true, but some kind of factual information would be nice. If it has been confirmed in another thread, then clearly I missed it. Perhaps you have used one of the Red lenses and this is your observation, which is fair enough. If so, could you go into more detail about the lens.

Thanks,
Steve

[planet e]

The RED lenses are basically Digital Stills lenses likely from Sigma

so put your expensive cinematography lenses on a RED capture device. i'm not sure that i see your point. RED never promised to make THE best lenses--they offered to make the best lenses at an affordable price point, and i believe gibby is saying that, from a performance measured against value standpoint, they delivered.

i'm looking forward to finding out for myself soon. but i appreciate the feedback from the early adopters, especially regarding the lenses. no one wants to make a redundant purchase, but it sounds as if RED made a very good first lens.

gibby, will you be shooting with the macro function any time soon? (that's the one that has me most curious...!) i haven't heard or seen anything about it.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Redacted.

[Michael Ragen]

Hey Gibby,
Have you had your Red on the Miller Solo ENG 100mm sticks? That is what I currently own and just ordered an OConnor 1030hds. I know those sticks aren't ideal for a studio setup, but I am curious to know how they might handle the payload of a semi-tricked out Red. Thanks.

[jbeale]

Lastly irrespective of what anyone is saying here across the site untill you have tested EVERYTHING out there in terms of lenses and given accurate MTF, Projection and viewed fair comparisions againts similar focal lenght lenses like I have been involved with no single stills lens yet produced comes close to professional cinematography lenses FOR FILM.
"no single stills lens yet produced" is a broad statement. I'm curious if you've tried lenses like the Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L . The MTF plots for that lens show impressive performance both at f/8 and wide open, in my opinion. http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=154&modelid=7317

Do you have any MTF plots for a cine lens that is so much better than this, that it is not even close?

[SamKam]

Gibby-
I'm a bit late to the party here, but wanted to thank you for all the info on this thread, especially your first few posts, and for all the time and effort you took to put them up here for us. Invaluable feedback on the camera and RED lenses and the sheer adaptability of RED.

[chuck colburn]

The RED lenses are basically Digital Stills lenses likely from Sigma and as such things like breathing and telescoping point to that as in stills this doesnt matter but in motion pictures it does.
Most cinematographers that give a jot care MORE about the lenses than the camera itself as the camera will always be simply a capture device something missed by many to RED. Yes still lenses have always been used and used very well but its like comparing driving from Dallas to LA in a Scion or in a Rolls Royce.
Secondly the most important difference between 2/3" and 35mm in terms of lenses is the artistic use of depth of field. Changing 2/3" lenses with adaptors still does not give you 35mm type depth of field.
Lastly irrespective of what anyone is saying here across the site untill you have tested EVERYTHING out there in terms of lenses and given accurate MTF, Projection and viewed fair comparisions againts similar focal lenght lenses like I have been involved with no single stills lens yet produced comes close to professional cinematography lenses FOR FILM. In HD only some of the cinematography lenses are able to handle the different characteristics required to handle the different frequencies, chromatic abberations etc.
Modern digital still lenses are also not as fast as their film forebearers in general yet nearly all cinematography lenses are and again cinematographers use this advantage in shooting and adding drama to the story. I agree their no perfect lens and all lenses are a compromise but you get what you pay for in lenses far more than with cameras.

Are you on drugs?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Are you on drugs?

maybe...or
maybe he met elvis and 2pac on their hidden island and they told him.

[Tony Lorentzen]

Fair enough...busy day and didn't see the smiley. No worries...

A few times recently, like when we posted some quick still pics from footage and equipment setups, a few guys then complained here about us not posting footage. At a quick read, without seeing the smiley, I thought your post was another one of those.

Cheers...:biggrin:

Cheers, Gibby. Like I've said before... if you come by Copenhagen then let me know and I'll buy you a beer!

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/829/544412.JPG

[Alex Fostvedt]

Hey Gibby,
How are the connectors on the right side of the camera holding up to dust, and other elements you have thrown at it? Just curious, I do alot of shooting in either really dusty places, or cold snowy places. Thanks! Alex