Cooke Vs. Zeiss... [Archive]

Evin Grant

10-26-2007, 11:55 PM

So first I'm going to apologise to Roketeer for hijacking your thread, sorry and for what I'm about to post which is the comparison you already shot but of which only the Cooke lens seems to have made it online. Today I was prepping my shooting package for a commercial shoot Sunday and just happen to have a Set of S4s and my newly acquired Zeiss T2.1 standard speeds together for the same time. I only had the chance to compare the 24 & 25 and the 50s but here it is...
http://www.redninjas.net/ZeissVsCooke.jpg

OK call me crazy but I wasn't expecting these lenses to be so utterly indistinguishable. They both seem to be resolving past the sensor here and this is wide open. There are still plenty on reasons to rent a super slick set of S4s, (breathing, focus draw, uniform size, warmer feel) but sharpness dosen't seem to be one of them. The corners looked slightly better on the Cookes but only by the tinyist bit. I'll try to post the DPX files in an hour or so.
E.

Sam Druckerman

10-27-2007, 12:12 AM

That is amazing.....

I might have to raise the rental price of my standard speeds.... :-) I kid, I kid.

It would be nice to see some comparisons of...... outdoors, people, etc.

Matt Uhry

10-27-2007, 01:06 AM

Thanks for Sharing, Evin!

The Red sensor's built in Low Pass filter is essentially a diffusion filter - It cuts higher resolution ( sharp lenses ) after a certain amount, I think it's around 160 LP/MM which is in easily reached at the center of any half-way decent lens. Unlike on film which has random sensors ( grains of silver halide ) and can sort of use higher resolution input up to a point, that's all you get with digital. And this is a good thing... Red is tuned somewhat in favor of being smooth and not sharp and that has much to do with how good it looks.

Resolution tests of lenses is like the top speed tests of a car - it's easy to measure and talk about but does not tell you much about what it's going to be like to drive around in.

The s4's and Zeiss 2.1's would look fairly different on test scene versus a chart. I hope to shoot a few tests like that in the next few weeks and demonstrate this.

I'd encourage anyone who is getting into this to find out what they like to use, what fit's with their tastes and what's most pleasing to their eye and not get too caught up in what's sharpest. Good mechanics and accurate repeatable focus marks are very valuable things for a motion picture lens.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Sanjin Jukic

10-27-2007, 01:25 AM

I'm happy to have both brands in my cine and still lens collection for RED.

ZEISS>>Still lenses

50mm Carl Zeiss Planar f/1.4 Zeiss ZF Nikon F
180mm Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar f/2.8 Nikon F
500mm Carl Zeiss Jena Fernobjektiv f/8 M42/Nikon F adapter

ZEISS>>Cine lenses

85mm Arriflex Carl Zeiss Standard f/2 PL 35mm
10-100mm Arriflex Carl Zeiss Vario Sonnar Zoom f/2.8 T* PL S16mm

COOKE>>Still lenses

75mm Cooke Speed Panchro Serie II F/2 T2.3 M42/Nikon F adapter

COOKE>>Cine lenses

25-250mm Cooke Rank Optics Taylor-Hobson Cine Varotal Zoom f/3.6 T4 PL 35mm

Evin Grant

10-27-2007, 01:52 AM

Here are the 4K DPX files
(Control click to download)
http://www.redninjas.net/Zeiss24.dpx
http://www.redninjas.net/Zeiss50.dpx
http://www.redninjas.net/Cooke25.dpx
http://www.redninjas.net/Cooke50.dpx

I have no doubt you're right Matt but it still makes me feel better about my investment. The build quality and focus mechanics alone make the S4s something to behold. Brook, Sam and I are going to go play tomorrow with the S4s and the Angy 15-40. I'll try to shoot some real world with all three at the same focal lengths and see what I can discern.
E.

Sanjin Jukic

10-27-2007, 02:05 AM

Here are the 4K DPX files
(Control click to download)
http://www.reduser.net/Zeiss24.dpx
http://www.reduser.net/Zeiss50.dpx
http://www.reduser.net/Cooke25.dpx
http://www.reduser.net/Cooke50.dpx

E.

Not Found

The requested URL /Zeiss24.dpx was not found on this server.
The requested URL /Zeiss50.dpx was not found on this server.
The requested URL /Cooke25.dpx was not found on this server.
The requested URL /Cooke50.dpx was not found on this server.

Evin Grant

10-27-2007, 02:10 AM

Sorry, I keep forgetting about the new server.
They should work now.

Sanjin Jukic

10-27-2007, 02:35 AM

Thanks Evin.

Sanjin Jukic

10-27-2007, 03:14 AM

The same old story, Cooke vs. Zeiss, they are selling what always they were selling:

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/cooke50mm-crop2.jpg
COOKE: WARMER AND A BIT UNSHARPER>>>Cooke 50mm crop from 4K DPX file, no addjustments.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/zeiss50mm-crop2.jpg
ZEISS: COOLER AND A BIT SHARPER>>Zeiss 50mm crop from 4K DPX file, no addjustments.

Now you just have to decide what look you prefer for your MOVING IMAGES.

Michael Lindsay

10-27-2007, 04:15 AM

The Red sensor's built in Low Pass filter is essentially a diffusion filter - It cuts higher resolution ( sharp lenses ) after a certain amount, I think it's around 160 LP/MM which is in easily reached at the center of any half-way decent lens. Unlike on film which has random sensors ( grains of silver halide ) and can sort of use higher resolution input up to a point, that's all you get with digital. And this is a good thing... Red is tuned somewhat in favor of being smooth and not sharp and that has much to do with how good it looks.

Resolution tests of lenses is like the top speed tests of a car - it's easy to measure and talk about but does not tell you much about what it's going to be like to drive around in.

The s4's and Zeiss 2.1's would look fairly different on test scene versus a chart. I hope to shoot a few tests like that in the next few weeks and demonstrate this.

I'd encourage anyone who is getting into this to find out what they like to use, what fit's with their tastes and what's most pleasing to their eye and not get too caught up in what's sharpest. Good mechanics and accurate repeatable focus marks are very valuable things for a motion picture lens.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

To add ineptly to the excellent post above: (loved the car analogy)

When looking at lenses I may look at all the bellow before ‘out right’ resolution:

Resistance to flare... Ability to flare in the right way... Out of focus quality... movement from in-focus to out of focus... Speed.. Quality of lens across apertures (Super Speeds always feel like 2 lenses in one where S4s are very consistent) .. Minimum focus... quality when focused at min... Consistent dimensions.. Consistent resolution…

Regards

Michael

chuck colburn

10-27-2007, 11:10 AM

Rectilinear and chromatic issues aside, remember that Graeme said you only need appx. 93 line pairs to achieve maximum resoultion on the RED sensor.

Greg M

10-27-2007, 12:33 PM

dont forget the "human" element of these tests...how do we know that one of the charts isnt just slightly out of focus compared the the other lens?

Evin Grant

10-27-2007, 01:26 PM

I hope I've gained just a little bit of trust around here. But to put your mind at ease I taped off and eye checked the focus before hitting the record button.

chuck colburn

10-27-2007, 01:34 PM

I hope I've gained just a little bit of trust around here. But to put your mind at ease I taped off and eye checked the focus before hitting the record button.

Jake and I trust you Evin. What portion of the total frame are your images?

Mark L. Pederson

10-27-2007, 04:52 PM

I have become a HUGE fan of Zeiss Ultra Primes since Offhollywood went RED ...

Scott Webster

10-27-2007, 05:04 PM

Should be interesting as Evin has provided samples to cross check.

Zeiss Ultra Focus Chart 50mm (http://www.mediafire.com/?e9aywttehpb)

Cooke S4 Focus Chart 50mm (http://www.mediafire.com/?8mxm1wsbdy2)

Zeiss Standard Focus Chart 50mm (http://www.mediafire.com/?fh0fzmdmvzt)

chuck colburn

10-27-2007, 05:07 PM

Speaking of Zeiss lenses, here's one that doesn't come along all that often. And I wonder if this adapter will work better then the plain wrap ones do with the Birger mount.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Contax-17-35-F-2-8-Zeiss-Vario-Sonnar-N-lens-Mint_W0QQitemZ270179318008QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3340Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://haodascreen.com/cyeos.aspx

Sanjin Jukic

10-27-2007, 05:19 PM

All waiting to be tested on RED in January.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/zeiss_arriflex_85mm_f2.jpg
Arriflex Zeiss 85mm f 2 PL 35mm

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/zeiss-10-100-s16.jpg
Arriflex Zeiss 10-100mm Vario Sonnar f 2.8 T* PL s16

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/hasselblad_zeiss_80.jpg
Hasselblad-Zeiss 80mm f 2.8 T* Nikon F

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/zf50-2.jpg
Carl Zeiss 50mm Planar f 1.4 ZF Nikon F

And more to come...

Greg M

10-27-2007, 05:48 PM

I have become a HUGE fan of Zeiss Ultra Primes since Offhollywood went RED ...

I agree...my prefered lens.

Greg M

10-27-2007, 09:53 PM

I hope I've gained just a little bit of trust around here. But to put your mind at ease I taped off and eye checked the focus before hitting the record button.

sorry-- I did not mean to imply you dont know how to focus

john melvin

10-27-2007, 10:08 PM

I have a full set of Hasselblad lenses that I use with my Hasselblad 2 1/4 format cameras. Will any of these be useable on the red camera?? If so what mount would I need?? I am sure this question has been answered but I have not found it.

Thanks

John

Bruce Allen

10-27-2007, 10:15 PM

John

The Red will have Nikon and Canon mounts. So think about it that way - how do you put a Hasselblad lens on a Nikon or Canon still camera?

A quick Google finds this:
http://www.rugift.com/photocameras/hasselblad_nikon_adapter.htm

I have no idea if it works or not, but there you go! Only $89!

Cheers

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Evin Grant

10-27-2007, 10:40 PM

Matt Uhry

10-28-2007, 01:29 AM

Rectilinear and chromatic issues aside, remember that Graeme said you only need appx. 93 line pairs to achieve maximum resoultion on the RED sensor.

I missed that, where did he say that ? My tests and dead reckoning put it a bit higher ( 160lp/mm) , but I'm not great at this kind of math.

I Need Sleep not Reduser.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Kevin Halverson

10-28-2007, 01:55 AM

My calcs come up with a number of just over 75lp/mm.

Here is my math:

4900 x 2580 photosites
24.4mm x 13.7mm sized sensor

4900/24.4 = 200.82 photosites/mm

The OLPF characteristics achieve 3k resolution for a 4k frame = 3k/4k = .75

200.82 photosites/mm * .75 = 150.6 lines/mm or 75.3lp/mm

Can someone point out an error in my approach?

Sanjin Jukic

10-28-2007, 02:25 AM

Nothing new with Cooke vs. Zeiss.

Again Zeiss a bit sharper, Cooke warmer,... etc.

But we have to deal mostly with moving images at 24 fps=film speed.

Probably that would bring here a different optical result.

I would appreciate to have RED 2K footage examples from these lenses in various situation.

Then I could say more and make a final decision what look and what lens do I need.

The crop images below taken from the Rocketeer's 4K tiff examples (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=101320&postcount=16):

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/Cooke_S4_50mm_2.jpg
Cooke S4 Prime 50mm, Crop+Adjustments>Auto Levels in PS3

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/ZeissStandard_50mm_2.jpg
Arri Zeiss Standard Prime 50mm, Crop+Adjustments>Auto Levels in PS3

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/ZeissUltra_50mm_2.jpg
Arri Zeiss Ultra Prime 500mm, Crop+Adjustments>Auto Levels in PS3

Roberto B

10-28-2007, 05:23 AM

you sanjin, you're a must..

a true artist..

you're a philosopher.. you speak like a high technician..

and actually, you know what you're talking about.. even when you're talking about an eye already wasted..

macgregor talk..

but not when you're making show off.. you love it.. ehehehehehe

Sanjin Jukic

10-28-2007, 10:00 AM