The Dark Country 3d Red and SI-2k

[Scott Webster]

Geoff Boyle has started a blog (http://www.cinematography.net/dc/index.html) on the 3d feature that he is about to commence.

Ho Hum you say?

Not when 2 cameras are Red's and the other 2 are SI-2K... and you're using the MK-V-AR Steadicam system (http://www.mk-v-ar.com/)

[Jason Rodriguez]

Ho Hum you say?

BTW, just as a quick disclaimer, I wouldn't use this shoot as a "face-off" between the two camera systems. That wasn't the point of the decisions that Geoff made in the choice of camera gear.

Especially when it comes to resolution and sharpness (which will be the first obvious choice everyone will jump on), basically Geoff has a RED with decent Optimo zoom lenses vs. the SI's with cheap $300 Fujinon c-mounts . . . I've used the Fujinon's a lot, and while they're decent for the price, it's not the lens I would have chosen to get the best picture . . . although I know why they're doing it, i.e., to get a *really small* package, and also the lenses have a really close front-element focal distance (a couple inches if you wanted). So it's more of picking the right tool for the job vs. trying to make a multi-million dollar 3D movie into a camera shoot-out. Obviously 4K is going to be sharper by it's very nature of having more pixels on the screen, especially once you supersample the image down to 2K, but the Fujinon's from what I've seen aren't the sharpest lenses for the native-2K job, especially compared to SuperSpeed primes or something along those lines that we've used to get the sharpest image possible. But I can see if they went with those larger lenses, they would run into problems needing beam-splitters, etc. that would have really blown-up the size of the rig.

Thanks,

Jason

[David Mullen ASC]

I find it hard to judge resolution anyway with 3D presentations, since you are looking at two overlaid images and your eyes are getting a bit tweaked around to get the 3D effect. Especially with close-focus 3D work as opposed to extreme wide shots which are more 2D in effect. This was one reason why a lot of James Cameron's 3D HDCAM work in "Ghosts of the Abyss" held up on an IMAX screen -- a lot of it was interior or underwater, so there were not a lot of wide exterior shots, plus you had two HD images creating one 3D image, not that gives you double the resolution but it helps.

Isn't "Game" (by the makers of "Crank") also shooting in Albuquerque at the same time? Two RED productions in the same area?

[explosive]

BTW, just as a quick disclaimer, I wouldn't use this shoot as a "face-off" between the two camera systems. That wasn't the point of the decisions that Geoff made in the choice of camera gear.


I think his point was more that RED is being used on ANOTHER feature, rather than "it is a face off"...

[Gunleik Groven]

http://www.cinematography.net/dc/Articles/ChasingtheCameras.html

Gunleik

[HJS-RED]

Hi Guys

This is my first post here.
I am Howard J Smith the A-cam/MK-V AR op on "Dark Country" with Geoff Boyle.
We are using 3 types of systems and 2 types of cameras to shoot this.
My 'A' camera is this really neat ultra small SI 2K 3D rig with full control over the IO - (3D depth) in shot - this lives in my AR, I also use the AR head on the crane and apple boxes etc. (this weights less than 10lbs and has 8mm lenses on it). I use this for most shots.

The 'B' camera is the RED 3D rig - The 'Paracam' - this is the 3D rig they used on "T2 3D" with 65mm camera, but now we have the 2 RED's on it with zooms. The guys at Paradise have made a 3D viewfinder with 2 x RED LCD's into a Mirror, you use the 3D pola glasses to operate - Very interesting. (this weighs 105lbs). We use this for close ups and plates at the moment, we will use this more when we get on the stage.

The 'C' camera is an SI 2k 3D parallel rig, with 4.8mm lenses on - I use this for extreme shots etc.
We have just finished Day (night) 4, and all is going well.

If anyone has any questions I look forward to hearing from you.
All the best and good night
Howard

[Álex Montoya]

Could you post pictures of both rigs, Howard?

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Good Morning Howard :-)

That sounds like a fantastic and exciting shoot! Any and all information will be greedily read, thank you..
Why is there such a big weight difference between the RED and SI rigs? Is this a surmountable difference in your opinion?
Can you give us an insight into filming with these rigs? IE: how much of a pain in the arse is it compared to a conventional set up? Are there issues framing and focussing? How many days is it adding to your filming schedule?
Keep it comin' in..

thanks and take it easy..

fergus

[HJS-RED]

Hi Guys

Thank you for the interest.
Here are some photos of the 3 x 3D systems.
I think they speak for themselves.
The 'RED rig' has zooms and focus systems built in and also controls to keep the lenses always 'looking' in the right place. Note the 3D RED LCD monitor. (with the glasses on top) And the Stack of Prestons.

The new SI 3D package in the MK-V AR works great, with control of the 3D in shot (0-2.5") - I use it like this even on the crane or 'normal'.

There is obviously a few differences using a 3D system to a normal one. But we have such a good crew from Paradise FX, that this is kept to a minimum. Cables being my main problem on the AR as I have 2 very stiff data cables to the 2x Mac laptops controling and recording the shots.
regarding operating, I always have been a fan of foreground and moving the camera, it just looks so much better in 3D.
I have to be careful of the edge of frame a lot more than standard (as it looks odd if things are on the edge), also my 'A' camera only has about a 20mm (in 35mm cine terms) but apart from that, I am using my MK-V AR and a 35 foot remote crane for most of it, with some great results.

Geoff is a dream Dp to work with, encouraging me to take risks and push it, His knowledge both technical and artisic is 2nd to none, and Tomas Jane the Director & Actor is just great, with a wonderful vision and sense of humour. I am Very much enjoying working with them.

I hope this helps.
All the best
Howard

[chuck colburn]

Is that rig in the center photo the new Paradise fx light weight model?

[Graeme Nattress]

Howard, great to see you posting here, and cool pictures too. Thanks!

Graeme

[Álex Montoya]

The SI 2K rig looks like a 3D shooter wet dream.

[HJS-RED]

Hi

The first rig is the Lightweight 3D SI rig in the MK-V AR,
The 2nd photo is the Full on 3D RED Para rig
and the 3rd is the SI parallel rig.

Well we have now finished week one, got some amazing stuff.
I had a chance to shoot a lot of footage on the RED rig last night and the pictures were stunning, even better in 3D, it really does look amazing.

We are using the RAM cards and this is working well as we get 6 mins per card and we can down load 2 at once in 5 mins, so this is great.

My only critic on the system is only 1 monitor out, so if the director wants to see what I am doing as well, I loose my monitor / viewfinder.
As you can probably tell this is not ideal....

But apart from not having a dedicated monitor output, (which it Must have to be used normally) the system is great and I look forward to getting my 2 RED's in a few weeks time.

All the best
Howard J Smith

[HJS-RED]

Hi Graeme

How are you?
Great product!!!

But - Please please can I have a separate video / monitor out ASAP...
This would help us SO much.
You really need to see the 3D Viewfinder the paradise guys made from 2 of your LCD's, it is just amazing!

many thanks
Howard

[Álex Montoya]

Hey, Howard. Which one makes better pictures? The RED or the SI?

[HJS-RED]

Hi

Now there is a leading question....
Well the SI's are 2K and the RED's are 4K.

I am very impressed with the RED's. - We just need another Monitor out.
I have yet to see any footage on the big screen, but from what I have seen so far on the monitors it is going to be one hell of a ride for the audience.
The SI's for the size are amazing, the whole full 3D SI rig that I use in the AR weighs the same as one RED body.
Back to the RED.
The one thing that is great, when you down load off the card you instantly get a lower res copy of the shot as well, great for playback and checking framing etc.

We are doing more prep today as we only really had 1 full day before we started, but I must say ALL the systems have been wonderful.
I am having great fun playing and learning the First full on 3D RED rig.

All the best
Howard

[Álex Montoya]

How about dynamic range? How would you compare both cameras in that field?

[HJS-RED]

Hi
This is Geoff Boyle question - but I think the RED's look great!

What I will say though is -
We shot a lot with the RED's last night, one shot looking straight at a window lit by an 18k (5 feet away) thru a blind, with the actors silhouette in foreground, beautiful stuff. The cameras handled it very well. We had lots of shadow detail even though there was no fill light at all.
---
One other thing Graeme if you are reading, is there anyway of having a power buffer or linking 2 batteries in series as the 1.5 min re boot seems like a life time when you are in the middle of a scene.
To be able to 'hot' swap batteries would make a huge difference.

The 'mag' re loads work very well, and the picture on the LCD is Very good.

The trouble with shooting in 3D is flares, it is almost Ok if you have it in Both lenses, but if you only get it in 1 it kills the effect. This is nothing to do with the RED's or the SI's, just a 3D thing...

Cheers
Howard

[Scott Webster]

One other thing Graeme if you are reading, is there anyway of having a power buffer or linking 2 batteries in series as the 1.5 min re boot seems like a life time when you are in the middle of a scene.
To be able to 'hot' swap batteries would make a huge difference.


There is a work around but you probably don't have the time to switch out battery systems.

Anton Bauer/V-lock Hot Swap Mount (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/255066-REG/Anton_Bauer_QRHOTSWAPVSD_QR_HOTSWAPHSD_Hot_Swap_Ba ttery_Plate.html)

Would work best with the Red Quickplate or Battery Clip to get the height down if mounted to the cradle. You will lose your 'battery percentage indicator' on the LCD, instead it will show AC.

[Graeme Nattress]

Thanks Howard - I'm not up on the electrical side of the camera, so I don't know the best answer. I know the boot time will drop as we move along though.

Graeme

[geoffboyle]

Hi Guys, well, a step in to the lions den :-)

Just to correct Jason, the main lenses on the SI are Schneider 8mm's, we also have 4.8, 12.5 & 25

I'm not going to make this a shoot out between the two systems, that's crazy, they're obviously very different.

As far as our end format is concerned, there is no difference.

Each rig has things that make it good and things that make it bad.

I'm not being political here, I'm just telling you the facts, if you want specific, well the blog has details of when anything goes wrong!

I'm really happy with what I'm getting from both cameras, I'd love to have a common LUT system but that's a dream at the moment.

I have more problems with Condors than anything else, not enough, not big enough, not in the right place's.

Please bear in mind that this is a car movie at night, we need maximum mobility most of the time.

I know that Paradise have plans for more rigs based on both the SI and the Red. The SI rig will be a bit bigger, the Red rig smaller.

One thing I will say, you have never seen 3d move like this!!

[Graeme Nattress]

Welcome Geoff. Not a lion's den - more of a mad house or asylum. :-)

Looking forwards to seeing the movie!

Graeme

[Joseph Mastantuono]

I thought I was the only one in the Asylum...

[HJS-RED]

Hi Graeme

Well we had another very full night - Last night the RED's played chicken with a semi truck and a car - great shots!! (could of been expensive!)
Tonight we had a few minor problems with them in the cold, one interesting note was when gen locked and re booting the slave does not like to boot when linked into the gen lock - you have to un plug it - I hope this makes sense??
But we got some GREAT stuff tonight and I am very fired up an tired!!

Used the RED's a lot today (and the SI's in the AR) and I do like the pictures we are getting and the RED 3D rig with its 3D viewfinder is amazing to look at - BUT PLEASE can you try and get us a 2nd monitor output ASAP as this is the only thing that is holding us up while shooting.
Reason behind this - to check 3D we have 2 RED LCD monitors in a beam splitter - we have the new mod with the left hand button to flick to the monitor out, but we can not do both at the same time, so Max can not set 3D and Geoff light at the same time.

Cheers
Howard

[Graeme Nattress]

Best put that kind of request through your RED contact down in Lake Forest. I'm up here in the cold north coding, so not much help on that kind of thing.

Can't wait to see what you've come up with. 3D on your rig must make for some pretty awesome moves....

Graeme

[PaulClements]

Hi Graeme

Well we had another very full night - Last night the RED's played chicken with a semi truck and a car - great shots!! (could of been expensive!)
Tonight we had a few minor problems with them in the cold, one interesting note was when gen locked and re booting the slave does not like to boot when linked into the gen lock - you have to un plug it - I hope this makes sense??
But we got some GREAT stuff tonight and I am very fired up an tired!!

Used the RED's a lot today (and the SI's in the AR) and I do like the pictures we are getting and the RED 3D rig with its 3D viewfinder is amazing to look at - BUT PLEASE can you try and get us a 2nd monitor output ASAP as this is the only thing that is holding us up while shooting.
Reason behind this - to check 3D we have 2 RED LCD monitors in a beam splitter - we have the new mod with the left hand button to flick to the monitor out, but we can not do both at the same time, so Max can not set 3D and Geoff light at the same time.

Cheers
Howard
Couldn't you strap two EVF's to your face (one from each camera) and manufacture a rather large pair of 3D goggles!!!

Paul

[ParaD-tt]

Howard is pretty amazing with his AR, even though his camera rigging could use some work. (i will post a photo of his hood mount later.)
We are getting amazing 3D with both the Red's and the SI mini's. Max has really done a good job working with both systems. Paradise owes much to Stephen Pizzo, and Hector at Element. In addition to building some great accessories for the RED, they we able to help us develop our new mini-rig Howard is slinging all over the desert in NM. the man is nuts. Element has helped with most of our 3D-rig needs for 15 years.
Thomas Jane Has put a good crew together for this project. We are excited to be making this film with them all.
Red has supported us 110% on this- as good as any camera house we have worked with. thanks guys at Red. BTW the 3rd rig, is just the spare SI-Minis we brought- which we stuck next to each other to be used for wide dumb shots. so far not too many of those.

this is my first post here- i hope i did not break any rules.

tim

[Mike Prevette]

Great to hear from you Tim, keep the updates coming.

[chuck colburn]

Howard is pretty amazing with his AR, even though his camera rigging could use some work. (i will post a photo of his hood mount later.)
We are getting amazing 3D with both the Red's and the SI mini's. Max has really done a good job working with both systems. Paradise owes much to Stephen Pizzo, and Hector at Element. In addition to building some great accessories for the RED, they we able to help us develop our new mini-rig Howard is slinging all over the desert in NM. the man is nuts. Element has helped with most of our 3D-rig needs for 15 years.
Thomas Jane Has put a good crew together for this project. We are excited to be making this film with them all.
Red has supported us 110% on this- as good as any camera house we have worked with. thanks guys at Red. BTW the 3rd rig, is just the spare SI-Minis we brought- which we stuck next to each other to be used for wide dumb shots. so far not too many of those.

this is my first post here- i hope i did not break any rules.

tim

Hey Tim,

How about some photos of the "NEW" compact 3D rig.

cheers,

[ParaD-tt]

Hey Tim,

How about some photos of the "NEW" compact 3D rig.

cheers,

Hey Chuck,
i will get some pic's for posting this weekend.
the 3D coming off it really rocks. we are only using about 1.75" of the total 2.50" IO travel range most of the time, because the 8mm lenses make it kind of a "close up rig" We have the Optimo 14-40mm on the ParaCam with the RED cameras, those images are scary good, deep and tasty. As 3D is resolution and information dependent, the RED's on the ParaCam are great.
they are using the PCR much more than they thought they might.
be well old friend

tim

[HJS-RED]

Hi Tim

Good to see you on here - we got some great stuff last night!
--
I liked my hood mount...:bleh:

And The shot looked great..:biggrin:

I did not do any silly mounts last night, but we did do a near miss shot with the RED rig that looks stunning. (even in 2D)

When you back?
Cheers
Howard

[chuck colburn]

Tim,

A pair of Optimos. WOW! Bet it makes matching those focale lengths a bit easier aye? Good to see that you and Max are doing well.

[HJS-RED]

Hi Guys

Well I have just seen our first rushes today - all I can say is WOW!

The SI's look amazing in 3D so much latitude we think it is about 10 stops.

And then we saw the RED's in 2D (as it is a lot of number crunching for 3D) and WOW again, we did some zoomed into 2K stuff as well and it just looks so filmic. And a great range as well!

I should add we were watching them both at 1/4 resolution as well - WOW!

I am totally blown away by both systems and the 3D just looks so good (not over the top, just real) - Well done PFX guys!! (Tim and Max)

All I can say is these cameras are here to stay.
And this film is going to open a lot of eyes (and hopefully doors...)

Well done to all.
I am proud to be a part of this.

All the best
Howard

[Graeme Nattress]

Thanks Howard!

Graeme

[Michael Schrengohst]

Hi Guys

Well I have just seen our first rushes today - all I can say is WOW!

The SI's look amazing in 3D so much latitude we think it is about 10 stops.

And then we saw the RED's in 2D (as it is a lot of number crunching for 3D) and WOW again, we did some zoomed into 2K stuff as well and it just looks so filmic. And a great range as well!

I should add we were watching them both at 1/4 resolution as well - WOW!

I am totally blown away by both systems and the 3D just looks so good (not over the top, just real) - Well done PFX guys!! (Tim and Max)

All I can say is these cameras are here to stay.
And this film is going to open a lot of eyes (and hopefully doors...)

Well done to all.
I am proud to be a part of this.

All the best
Howard


Excellent! So when will this Digital 3D "film" be released?

[HJS-RED]

Hi

Re the release date I am not sure, but I will try and find out later.
This film should be listed in the shooting on RED's sections as I believe that it is the only film using 2 RED's for the same shot..

I am overal Very impressed with the RED system, as you know my only 2 things are at least a 2nd monitor out and hot swap batteries.

The 2nd Monitor output is Vital, this slows us down more than anything as Max needs to check the 3D, and while this is being done Geoff can not see the shot to light it. Because of the size of the Para rig you can not even look over the camera at the actor. So the viewfinder or monitor out is the only way to see the shot.

Any idea when the next batches will be shipped? as I can't wait to get my 2 RED's.

Great work guys, keep it up.
Thanks
Howard

[geoffboyle]

I have to jump in here and say that I like Howards rigs, fast, cheap and nasty.

I was also blown away at rushes yesterday, I've mentioned the crane skimming the ground and then plummetting off a cliff towards a police car, stunning!

Howard is spot on about the monitoring, it's digital, I light the basics by meter and then tweak off the monitor, I can't have a picture if Max is working on 3D, this really sucks.

The pictures from both camera are stunning, we're getting great support and I'm trying to get permission to post a few images from the movie.

Geoff

[Michael Schrengohst]

http://rawstudios.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=127

[Mike Prevette]

You guys are rock stars!

Geoff I'm loving the blog, It cracks me up every morning to take a peek at it. Instantly brings to mind every past conflict on every set. Not enough lights, not enough people, company move, etc.

Thanks again for making the time for it!

_mike

[HJS-RED]

Hi Guys

Just to make it clear - Geoff and Tim are talking about my impromptu car mounts when they says 'Rigs' - not my MK-V gear..:nerd:

Just thought I would make this clear..:matrix:

Cheers
Howard

[Mike Prevette]

Hahahhaha, I got it.

[HJS-RED]

Hi Guys

Well we shot a Hell of a lot on the RED's rig last night - must be hours of data. (+ some Mega close ups on the SI rigs)
The RED's worked great - just the usual 1 monitor out problem.

BUT what is very interesting and something I really like is. Since we are now shooting against green screen. ( 2 people in a car)
I can do the mid shot (4K) and the close up (2K) at the same time and we can do a cut/edit between the 2 with perfect continuity (as it is the same shot) also it means I can do everything static (for post) and then when it is all comp'ed we can then re frame as a full shot. The plate will be a 4K image as well, and we can use the same one for all close ups.
I found this very Very useful. This should also speed up post so much. Plus give us Great shots.

Great kit guys!
Cheers
Howard

[brentfinley]

Does anyone know if the 4.8mm Schneider (2/3 inch c-mount) vignettes at all on the SI-2K? It definitely would on the RED (given a C-mount) in 2K mode since the 2k sensor is super 16 sized

(sorry to post an SI question, but it seemed relevent since Geoff posted it)

[Philip Powell]

This is all very interesting. I feel I have a fair understanding of the production side of shooting for 3D, but very little on the post side. I'm sure there are tons of techniques, opinions etc, but would someone be so kind as to point me to a link about a post workflow for 3D, how the images are combined, software that might be/is used etc. Thanks. I'm a 3D noob, but interested in learning more. Thanks.:greedy:

[PaulClements]

I'm a 3D noob

There are few in the world that aren't! :)

You might want to start here (http://www.reald-corporate.com/resources_download_whitepapers.asp). Hopefully there's something in there that might help

Paul

[Michael Morlan]

I shot 3D stills of still life as a kid - take a left-eye shot, slip the camera right and take another shot. Learned all about IO and convergence and stuff. While we constantly shift our convergence and focus with our own eyes, would the shifting of convergence in a 3D shot be disturbing to an audience or just as natural?

Howard, I've used a dual-v-mount adapter like the GT-TS on this page:

http://www.batteries4broadcast.com/extras_cart.htm

Couldn't be simpler. Snap the adapter on the existing v-mount. Change batts without ever shutting down.

I'm planning on one for my RED One as well.

Michael

[Jay A. Kelley]

Actually guys,

I sent Anton Baur the wiring specs for the power once Jarred gave them too me, this was about a month ago.. They are working on a replacement plate for the camera right now.. I hear the adaptor is a little gimby. Jarred said RED already contains the nessesary screw holes for putting it on.

Jay

[Adam Levins]

What happened to the blog? seems to be down.

[Anders Holck]

Maybe the company behind stage6 films though it was a really really bad idea to have the blog.....

[CJ Roy]

I believe Geoff was asked to take it down. I forget the circumstances though.

[dracul]

where does one get this si 3d package and how much is it?

[Andrew Benz]

where does one get this si 3d package and how much is it?

It is just not that easy to answer... it is not something you get from BH Photo/Video in a neat and tidy package. This is highly specialized technology that have niche Craftsmen and corporations that are built on these skill sets.

Most of the information you want is on the first page of this thread like....

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=105177&postcount=6
or...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=105297&postcount=9

The not so warm and fuzzy answer is "rent" if you have the budget, project and the proper people.

Good luck though on your DP career path and your demo...

Cheers,

Andrew

[Mat@imageWork]

Hi howard,

Who build the stereoscopic rigg? Is it avaible for renting?

Many thanks to share with us your experience.

Mathieu

[Mitch Gross]

Paradise FX.

The 3D rig can also accept the Phantom cameras.