My experience with 12-core 2.66GHz Mac pro & Quadro 4000 [Archive]

Andrae Palmer

02-06-2011, 05:17 AM

System configuration:
Davinci Resolve v7.0.3
Mac OSX 10.6.6
2 x 2.66 GHz 6-core Intel Xeon
24GB RAM (6x4GB ECC in triple channel config)
ATI Radeon HD 5770 Slot 1
NVIDIA Quadro 4000 Slot 2
G-RAID 2TB media drive connected via FW800
Dual 30" Apple Cinema Display

Before running Davinci Resolve, didn't realize that CPU debayering of RED footage was possible at 1/2 Res and realtime. Wasn't even aware that this would be the method that Resolve uses. Was thinking debayering would be GPU based with the Quadro 4000. Terrible experiences in Redcine-X, Final Cut Pro and all apps that are not multicore optimized made me ignorant to the possibilities. Then again I've only had a 12-core for the past month and wasn't totally aware of what it's real capabilities are regarding debayering RED footage. Was pleasantly surprised to see this:

click for larger version
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5014/5413495843_1fb2213c5d_z.jpg (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5014/5413495843_77c2d751d2_o.png)

CPU load 1920x1080 timeline at Half Res. Good (add 4-5% more for 2K film timelines):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5421395663_1990689489_z.jpg

It's a pleasure to see all 24 virtual cores being utilized and the UI being very responsive even with all 4 scopes loaded on dual 30" Apple Cinema Display setup. Since then I've added all kinds of secondary nodes to push the GPU. Found out the only thing that gives the system a hiccup is 3+ nodes of blur. With realtime playback at 1920x1080 possible on a 12-core at "Half Res. Good". I would recommend going this route instead of a RED Rocket (especially if financially challenged). I've seen many on here tout their experiences with a hackintosh and GTX 480, etc. I don't really quite understand using playback settings at a 1/4 res or 1/8 res on a desktop computer. The main holy grail of Davinci Resolve is realtime performance. If you are grading RED 4k RAW... you should at least be able to preview it at HD resolution decently in realtime on a professional monitor.

My opinion is that if someone is using a hackintosh system then it should supersede the capabilities of a certified system. The pro's would be more expansion slots and access to faster GPUs. The con is that to get a professional hackintosh system you are looking at costs that start to enter the realm of certified systems. I just don't see the point of cost cutting just to get a 1/4 res or 1/8 res realtime playback with a superfast GPU.

I'm really excited at now having the possibility of being able to grade 4k footage on a 4k res timeline. Wow! Look how fast the world of tech is moving. Thank you Blackmagic! What your company is doing in the world of post is just as important as what RED s doing with the camera.

Aleksandar Colancevski

02-06-2011, 12:56 PM

Andrae Palmer

02-06-2011, 01:04 PM

That doesn't surprise me... some people can't see the difference between HD & SD. I on the other hand can clearly & easily see a difference between 1/4 res and 1/2 res. The difference is even more acute in formats where the viewers eyes will be right next to the broadcast medium. The effect is akin to having a blur node on the entire clip especially with up close shots.

Aleksandar Colancevski

02-06-2011, 01:15 PM

I was refering to significant difference that could affect your grading.

Christoffer Glans

02-06-2011, 01:27 PM

Maybe my eyes are not OK, but I find very difficult to make difference between 1/2 and 1/4 debayer on JVC HD projector.
Strange that my 285gtx is little faster than quadro4000. I can do 4 nodes with blur.

Not strange, the geforce cards are more powerful then the quadro, it's just that they are tweaked and optimized for Open GL, which the geforce isn't.

As for the 1/2 and 1/4 I clearly see a difference, sharp edges are jittery.

Andrae Palmer

02-06-2011, 01:29 PM

Notice the loss of detail in the headboard texture and how it affects perception of brightness... same goes for the eyes. The jaggedness on the fingers and lines on the neck.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5422610889_4c915e9837_o.jpg

Well any colorist can grade in 1/16th res and it wouldn't affect the grading (especially for primary grades)... the situation switches slightly when a client is wondering why their very sharp footage filmed on a 4k RED camera, etc... now looks so verry blurred. The situation is even more disastrous when the footage has to be output to tape realtime.

Aleksandar Colancevski

02-06-2011, 11:35 PM

Jeetu Chawla

02-07-2011, 01:50 AM

Andrae, are you using the Apple Cinema Display as your Grading monitor? How would you rate it - precision wise?

Thanks

Jose Lomeña

02-07-2011, 02:50 AM

Do you render at 1/2 or Full?.

In my opinion 1/2 Standard get more "sharpnest" than full debayer. Can you make the test with the same image?.

Notice the loss of detail in the headboard texture and how it affects perception of brightness... same goes for the eyes. The jaggedness on the fingers and lines on the neck.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5422610889_4c915e9837_o.jpg

Well any colorist can grade in 1/16th res and it wouldn't affect the grading (especially for primary grades)... the situation switches slightly when a client is wondering why their very sharp footage filmed on a 4k RED camera, etc... now looks so verry blurred. The situation is even more disastrous when the footage has to be output to tape realtime.

Andrae Palmer

02-07-2011, 06:04 AM

Very nice example. It was my eyes.
I render it after with full debayer, but never noticed that I mess it up with brightnes.
With BT Rocket Hack comes 1000$ cheaper than MacPro 12core and you don't have to buy expansion box.
Asus P6T7 Supercomputer 460$
i7 930 250$
Memory 12GB 300$
Cooler 50$
Case 100$
285gtx 300$
GUI card 50$
HD 50$
BT Rocket 3000$
Total cca 4700$ and you will still have an extra PCIe to put another 285gtx or whatever.

The problem with the above configuration is rendering out to compressed file formats.

"Compressed formats may or may not be processed in realtime depending upon the codec used. Compressed file formats place higher demands on the CPU than uncompressed formats. Of course uncompressed file formats require a fast disk array to cope with the high read and write data rates.

If you are regularly using compressed file formats, a certified 2009 or newer series Mac Pro is recommended for realtime performance."

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/277/1739

Andrae, are you using the Apple Cinema Display as your Grading monitor? How would you rate it - precision wise?

Thanks

Just using the ACD to play around currently while studyung the manual and researching the software online. Today ordering the BM Decklink 3D+ and will then try to find a proper grading monitor. I'll have to do even more research in that quest... price being the main issue. Would love to get a 10 bit monitor as soon as possible.

Do you render at 1/2 or Full?.

In my opinion 1/2 Standard get more "sharpnest" than full debayer. Can you make the test with the same image?.

I render out to disk at 1/2 Standard, can't see a difference between the two... your perception could be right, let me look into it today.

Eric Santiago

02-07-2011, 06:41 AM

The SuperBowl aftermath has not been good to my stomach.
However, reading this post picked me up again BIG TIME!!
Thanks Andrae for that ;)
Quick question, do you have a RED Rocket at all and if you do, does it add to the experience of the 12Core at all?
Running a MP 2.97 12Core with dual ACD 30's, Quadro 4000 and RED Rocket.
Its our REDCineX box but researching if were good enough for Davinci (without anymore additions).

Thanks again!

Andrae Palmer

02-07-2011, 07:00 AM

Sold RED Rocket card a few months back... wondering the same thing you are. If rendering out involves this process: First Debayer then apply GPU effects and finally compressing to codec via CPU. Then having the RR of course would eliminate process one. But lets look at it this way... this is a serial cascading process... the program has to wait on the RR to finish the debayer first. So in that regards having the RED Rocket card may not make a difference at all since the Mac Pro can also process the debayer in realtime at 1/2 Res Good. So Mac Pro 12-core process without RED Rocket card would be... CPU debayer in realtime at 1/2 Res. Good, GPU effects and then CPU compressing out to codec. It looks like the same process to me... but I'm not fully aware of any potential downsides. Visually I cannot perceive any difference between 1/2 Res. Good and a full debayer. Of course it would make a world of difference in a 3K or 4K render out environment... the CPU would not be able to handle the debayer in realtime. Unfortunately my workflow is not so high end as of yet to need a 3K or 4K disk out. :-)

Currently getting around 18fps out to a 2TB G-RAID with Apple ProRes 4444. Let me do some testing with ProRes 422 today. Perhaps others with a similar config as mine plus a RED Rocket card can post their compressed file formats render out results.

------

Apple ProRes 422 HQ... 18 FPS
Apple ProRes 422... 22 FPS

Aleksandar Colancevski

02-07-2011, 11:37 AM

I don't understand what is the problem if I wait for Resolve to render.
Ofcorse if I could afford HDCAM or D5 I wouldn't be dicussing Hacks.

Andrae Palmer

02-07-2011, 12:16 PM

We are comparing fast configs... a 12 core Mac Pro can CPU handle realtime debayer playback and significantly boost your render out FPS. The config you posted with a RED Rocket would be very limited in render outs. I think you would agree that realtime playback and realtime render out to disk would be ideal.

Very nice example. It was my eyes.
I render it after with full debayer, but never noticed that I mess it up with brightnes.
With BT Rocket Hack comes 1000$ cheaper than MacPro 12core and you don't have to buy expansion box.
Asus P6T7 Supercomputer 460$
i7 930 250$
Memory 12GB 300$
Cooler 50$
Case 100$
285gtx 300$
GUI card 50$
HD 50$
BT Rocket 3000$
Total cca 4700$ and you will still have an extra PCIe to put another 285gtx or whatever.

A 12-core Mac Pro is on B&H Photo for $4799, free shipping and no tax. That's how I got my system. The mobo you listed are single slots? Two GTX 285's would take up four slots... the BT rocket would take up the 5th slot, and the GUi card the 6th slot. I could do the same by getting a GT 120 and installing two GTX 285's. The RED Rocket would be eliminated because of the realtime CPU debayer at 1/2 res. good. I would have the benefit of being able to do realtime renders out to compressed file formats while enjoying the same realtime playback as the hack. My system would be certified and have much more of a higher resale value.

Christopher Barrett

02-07-2011, 12:56 PM

Very interesting, Andrae. I have the same 12 core with 48gb ram and internal raid, but haven't been able to see anything at higher res because of the lack of multi-core apps. Do you know what, besides Resolve, makes good use of the power?

I was thrilled when i got my system and started processing stills. Capture One Pro fully utilized 24 threads, processing 60megapixel raws into 335mb tiffs wicked fast. Good stuff!

Ironically, I just ordered a Rocket this weekend.

CB

Christopher Barrett

02-07-2011, 12:57 PM

Edit : post seemed to clone itself.

Eric Santiago

02-07-2011, 01:00 PM

Very interesting, Andrae. I have the same 12 core with 48gb ram and internal raid..Care to tell me which Internal RAID and HD set-up you have? Ive been researching for days now and still havent pulled the trigger.

Andrae Palmer

02-07-2011, 01:05 PM

Chris,

Premiere Pro makes use of the multicore power for debayering realtime. After Effects saturates the cores for rendering. I'm on the hunt for other apps that both utilize GPU power and multicores. What I found out is that Mercury Playback Engine is not just GPU based... it's a technology that utilizes full system resources. It really made me feel happy in my purchasing decision of getting the 12-core 2.66 GHz system.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5413367039_fb116b6747_z.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/5411975342_5324bc32c3_z.jpg

Christopher Barrett

02-07-2011, 01:40 PM

Eric, just 4 drives in the Tower slots configured Raid 0 via system software. Not sure if a Raid card is worth giving up a slot, I'm getting about 275mb/sec on that... backed up to an eSATA box... backed up to a Drobo Pro. I've got two OWC SSD's in the optical bay in Raid 0 for system. Getting > 500mb/sec on those lil buggers.

Andrae, awesome. I've just recently switched from FCP to Premier and was happy just to be able to make use of the RAM, will play with debayer settings some more for viewing.

Coolio.

Aleksandar Colancevski

02-07-2011, 01:56 PM

A 12-core Mac Pro is on B&H Photo for $4799, free shipping and no tax. That's how I got my system. The mobo you listed are single slots? Two GTX 285's would take up four slots... the BT rocket would take up the 5th slot, and the GUi card the 6th slot. I could do the same by getting a GT 120 and installing two GTX 285's. The RED Rocket would be eliminated because of the realtime CPU debayer at 1/2 res. good. I would have the benefit of being able to do realtime renders out to compressed file formats while enjoying the same realtime playback as the hack. My system would be certified and have much more of a higher resale value.

With 24GB ram for 4799$? Wow that is a steal.
Luigi managed to put 3x 470gtx and a Blackmagic card and a raid card.
I didn't try it, but hey there is always a water cooling solution which can make 285s occupy single slot.
Currently I am on 150$ Gigabyte x58 USB3 mobo with the two gtx card and one Blackmagic, rendering on softraid 0 with 4 drives. Doing realtime only in 1/4 debayer.
Waiting for Jose Lomena to report on his i7 980x 6 core prosessor if it is capable to do 1/2res debayer.

Oliver Peters

02-07-2011, 02:10 PM

What I found out is that Mercury Playback Engine is not just GPU based... Absolutely correct. In fact, there's very little that GPU acceleration affects. Image scaling/sizing and certain optimized effects are offloaded to the CUDA technology. That's about it.

- Oliver

Christopher Barrett

02-07-2011, 02:12 PM

Oh, man... PP does make nice use of cores! And half debayer is beautiful on my 24" Eizo. Now we just need the new color science. Hear me Adobe?!!!

Andrae Palmer

02-07-2011, 02:16 PM

With 24GB ram for 4799$? Wow that is a steal.
Luigi managed to put 3x 470gtx and a Blackmagic card and a raid card.
I didn't try it, but hey there is always a water cooling solution which can make 285s occupy single slot.
Currently I am on 150$ Gigabyte x58 USB3 mobo with the two gtx card and one Blackmagic, rendering on softraid 0 with 4 drives. Doing realtime only in 1/4 debayer.
Waiting for Jose Lomena to report on his i7 980x 6 core prosessor if it is capable to do 1/2res debayer.

The recommended memory config is 6, 12 or 24 GB for Davinci Resolve. The Mac Pro 12 core comes with 6x1GB sticks for $4799 from B&H. Of course for that price you also get a copy of Mac OSX Snow Leopard, a keyboard, wireless magic mouse, optical drive, wireless Airport N & bluetooth.

I'm interested in seeing that report from Jose Lomena.

Oh, man... PP does make nice use of cores! And half debayer is beautiful on my 24" Eizo. Now we just need the new color science. Hear me Adobe?!!!

I was pretty shocked too... lol.. Final Cut Studio is such complete crap.

luigivaltulini

02-07-2011, 05:49 PM

Hello Andrea,
congratulations on your Mac a beautiful machine.(i like :hurray:)
Well I'm happy that more and more people are realizing the Davinci, I must say that as software is done very very well and definitely has a future as for now CS5 premiere.
We hope that Apple comes out with an update to final cut soon.
Davinci use all processors, then you will have many;) (24) lucky;)
Well you've made the right choice, I would say as a professional, quality and guaranteed support for several years.
I do Hackintosh is a long time, so for me there is the problem of updates or other I always find a solution as I think Ale and Jose etc.etc.
For now my Hack has a 4 gtx 470 1 areca 1880i 1 blackmagic 3d and I think to buy Matrox uncompressed HD to speed up the encoding h264 for make a BLuRay..
My Hack in this moment make 14/15 fps at half resolution in this case GPU not work, but is i7 950 , I think Jose with 6 core does RealTime for sure.
Aspect of many tests on your part with this beautiful machine is important that people can see.
Ciao Andrea
thanks

Luigi

Andrae Palmer

02-07-2011, 06:10 PM

Luigi,

Thank you! A certified system is important to me... then again having an hackintosh that can use multiple GPUs is also pretty neat and have a little rebel aspect to it. Like seeing the reports on here of testing with cards like the GTX 480. Personally scared of investing so much in a non certified system. If I was going to give it a try, would like a 12 core PC and the latest GPU's... needless to say can't afford it... especially the resale hit.

Found it important to highlight weaknesses in going the hackintosh route for others looking at similar hack configs. The main weakness is that without a 12 core or RED Rocket you are looking at 1/4 Res playback or less and slow renders out to compressed file formats. Since most think of an hackintosh with an eye on price... the config is most likely to be one without RED Rocket or 12 cores. It defeats the purpose of super fast GPUs if your realtime playback is at 1/4 Res. At "1/2 Res. Good" there is no perceptible loss in quality on playback. I think this is the ideal sweet spot.... 1/2 Res Good playback with an affordable CPU package, mobo, etc. I hope that config is found soon... I'm interested in it. In that regard keep up the good work and all the knowledge you've posted here on the forum.

Eric Santiago

02-07-2011, 06:29 PM

The recommended memory config is 6, 12 or 24 GB for Davinci Resolve...how about 32? Is that okay?

Andrae Palmer

02-07-2011, 06:37 PM

how about 32? Is that okay?

No... the config PDF found here: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/downloads/davinci/pdf/DaVinciResolveMacConfigGuide.pdf

says... "optimization (not 8, 16 or 32 GB)". Basically they want you to maintain triple channel memory config.

Jose Lomeña

02-08-2011, 03:08 AM

Hello Andrea,
My Hack in this moment make 14/15 fps at half resolution in this case GPU not work, but is i7 950 , I think Jose with 6 core does RealTime for sure.
Aspect of many tests on your part with this beautiful machine is important that people can see.
Luigi

Luigi the best that i can get is stable 22fps at half good, but I prefer limit to 20fps for ui responsiveness.
I think that for 25fps you need to overclock to 5ghz. My best 24/7 setting is 4.2ghz.

saludos,

Jose.

Curran Giddens

02-08-2011, 03:47 AM

how about 32? Is that okay?

It is if you have a 2008 Mac Pro (3,1).

Andrae Palmer

02-08-2011, 05:25 AM

Luigi the best that i can get is stable 22fps at half good, but I prefer limit to 20fps for ui responsiveness.
I think that for 25fps you need to overclock to 5ghz. My best 24/7 setting is 4.2ghz.

saludos,

Jose.

Thanks Jose for your report... was wondering what type of performance the six core 3.33 GHz Mac Pro would have. With your report I now know that the 6 core Mac Pro wouldn't be able to handle 1/2 Res. Good. I think you are right that it would take an overclocked 5GHz hackintosh to get 1/2 good res playback.

Mac Pro 12 core 2.66 equals a rough 31.92 GHz (with 68% CPU load on playback)
A hack at 6 * 5GHz equals a rough 30GHz

Of course there maybe other issues limiting performance.

Eric Santiago

02-08-2011, 05:36 AM

It is if you have a 2008 Mac Pro (3,1).
I have one but its being used for Avid and Protools.
Any advantages as to how the RAM is configured at say 24GB?
I was thinking 3 x 8GB sticks but I do have 6 x 4GB currently.

Andrae Palmer

02-08-2011, 05:48 AM

If only three are being used it will give you more speed than a dual channel config... but it won't give you more speed than a multiple three channel config... due to data being spread amongst the modules in an alternating pattern.

Eric Santiago

02-08-2011, 06:09 AM

I...but it won't give you more speed than a multiple three channel config... due to data being spread amongst the modules in an alternating pattern...So its safe to say that 6 x 4GB is the way to go?

Andrae Palmer

02-08-2011, 06:28 AM

Most definitely... BM has put a lot of work into their config guide. The configs that they recommend are the ones that are capable of getting the job done properly... with an emphasis on realtime speeds. It does take a little careful reading to understand the performance capabilities of the systems they've tested:

Realtime r3d decoding can be performed without the RED Rocket card but at reduced resolution and de-bayer quality. If 4K r3d files need to be processed in real time at maximum quality, a Resolve for Linux system with multiple GPUs must be used. As newer generations of faster computers become available, the realtime r3d decoding performance will increase.

Resolve works with any certified 2008 series Mac Pro for uncompressed SD and HD in real time and full quality. When working in HD, set the "Video bit depth" to "8 bit" in the Video Monitoring preferences of the Configuration screen. This has no impact on render or tape quality and all SDI I/O is at full bit depth quality.

Eric Santiago

02-08-2011, 06:33 AM

Eric Santiago

02-08-2011, 06:42 AM

Most definitely... BM has put a lot of work into their config guide. The configs that they recommend are the ones that are capable of getting the job done properly...Now is this all moot with the RED ROCKET intact? I take the speed their trying to achieve is more towards CC right?

Andrae Palmer

02-08-2011, 06:50 AM

Here's a question I cant seem to find.
How do you get the FPS read-out on your current playback?
I just watched a clip at 1/2 Debayer@Fit Both on a 2560x1600 screen.
I cant tell if Im watching it in real-time.
I also checked CPU usage and with the ROCKET it barely moves.

It should be displayed in the top left corner of the viewer window in the Color room or in the Viewer room.

Now is this all moot with the RED ROCKET intact? I take the speed their trying to achieve is more towards CC right?

Seems to me that the testing is also geared towards achieving realtime render outs and proper preview monitoring capability. For example: a 2008 eight core Mac Pro with a RED Rocket Card can achieve proper preview of realtime CC with compressed file formats. Yet still they recommend it for uncompressed file formats due to the slow render outs to compressed file formats. Judging by this they really put a great emphasis on realtime debayer, realtime CC and realtime renders.

I think it makes sense. My logic is this... realtime CC is a capability in many color grading apps... you would have to work in an uncompressed file format without a RED Rocket or Fast CPU (a definite plus cost wise). You would have to take the time to render out the clips to DPX first. This workflow is no different than what many on here are doing... except the slow render out is at the end of the job instead of the beginning.

Now the main selling point of the Davinci is realtime but if you are back to square one in the workflow... it doesn't make much sense... unless you like the User Interface, motion tracker or master to tape (you definitely can afford a 12 core if you do).

Andrae Palmer

02-09-2011, 04:20 AM

Do you render at 1/2 or Full?.

In my opinion 1/2 Standard get more "sharpnest" than full debayer. Can you make the test with the same image?.

I've observed the same. Kind of surprising. Also that Half. Res. Premium in general is horrible. This is a pretty good observation especially in regard to needing a RED Rocket card for 2K or HD deliverable or high quality realtime playback.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5053/5430309711_85b02eff23_o.jpg

Gabriele Turchi

02-09-2011, 06:49 AM

Just using the ACD to play around currently while studyung the manual and researching the software online. Today ordering the BM Decklink 3D+ and will then try to find a proper grading monitor. I'll have to do even more research in that quest... price being the main issue. Would love to get a 10 bit monitor as soon as possible..

so than when you have the SDI out you will realize how resolve at 1/4 res is really Quite OK ...i guess it does a good upscaling to HD ...

So if the system have no extra slot for rocket 1/4 res is good looking out of resolve sdi and handle more nodes ...

g

Andrae Palmer

02-09-2011, 06:53 AM

so than when you have the SDI out you will realize how resolve at 1/4 res is really Quite OK ...i guess it does a good upscaling to HD ...

So if the system have no extra slot for rocket 1/4 res is good looking out of resolve sdi and handle more nodes ...

g

Resolve at 1/4 res is not OK at all.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5422610889_4c915e9837_o.jpg

Gabriele Turchi

02-09-2011, 06:59 AM

Resolve at 1/4 res is not OK at all.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5018/5422610889_4c915e9837_o.jpg

i thought you don't have SDI yet...
i am saying out of the SDI ,i have a 58 " inches plasma display and on 4K (not 2K) 1/4 res out of resolve sdi is completely usable (so you have more nodes to grade realtime .)

if don't like ..well i respect that opinion , i prefer performances towards a touch less of sharpness

and again out of sdi is not the same s the GUI (because the decklink card rescale to HD )

g

Andrae Palmer

02-09-2011, 07:01 AM

Upscaling to HD is one thing... but did you notice the image looking darker at 1/4 Res?

Gabriele Turchi

02-09-2011, 07:04 AM

actually no i did not on the SDI...trust me ,
1/4 on the sdi really usable ,the difference on the monitor is not like the diff in the pics posted on this thread ...than render out higher rez...

g

Andrae Palmer

02-09-2011, 10:34 AM

Andrew Ravani

02-10-2011, 11:29 AM

click on image for larger 5760x1080 image:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/5431049889_814555feba_b.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/5431049889_84fcfe09d7_o.jpg)

click on image for larger 5760x1080 image:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5431095973_cdd21cabfd_b.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4084/5431095973_d3015172ee_o.jpg)

Resolutions in order are: 1/4 Res. Good, 1/2 Res. Good and Full Res. Premium

I'm observing that Half Res. Good appears sharper and that the image appears brighter as resolution is increased (look at the green branches in the background and the face).

Hi Andre - great comparison. when I take a look at those images - I see a more vivid image in the full res - especially in comparison to the first.

We should all keep in mind that Debayer is actually a three dimensional transform in the RED wavelet based codec - with precision in the algorithm affecting the depth and precision of the outcome (luminance, sharpness, and Chroma). Wavelet based codecs are all about precision - and rounding out precision when you decrease resolution.

This is really where RED seems to shine: at the full DeBayer end of the spectrum there is a vivid texture and color gradation that can be brought down to the lower resolution material (2K/HD arena) but only after processing it as if it were going to full res.

I would love to know what the real transformations are that are going on in the codec to give a difference between Half res premium and full res - but I suspect that only Graham and the RED codec folk are the only ones privy to that info.

OF NOTE: it should also be noted that the consensus is that the best debayers for full res are actually off of software/GPU combos (ALA: Quantel Pablo) rather than the RED Rocket - I suspect that it is again a precision issue - high frequency 64bit CPUs are just capable of more precision than a dedicated hardware card - although the Rocket is awesome for added speed and spitting out dailies!!!

Andrae Palmer

02-10-2011, 12:36 PM

OF NOTE: it should also be noted that the consensus is that the best debayers for full res are actually off of software/GPU combos (ALA: Quantel Pablo) rather than the RED Rocket - I suspect that it is again a precision issue - high frequency 64bit CPUs are just capable of more precision than a dedicated hardware card - although the Rocket is awesome for added speed and spitting out dailies!!!

I was surprised to discover this on the boards yesterday. I had a RED Rocket card but sold it. Now I'm doing realtime playback at 1/2 res high and it's sufficient for my purposes. It's really amazing how optimized for multicore the Davinci Resolve is. Since I don't have the RR all my debayers will be CPU based. Is there any special software/algorithms to get the best debayer possible? I'm also wondering what the quality of the Davinci Resolve CPU debayer is compared to Pablo, RED Rocket, etc.

Andrew, did you notice the darkness in the 1/4 res?

actually no i did not on the SDI...trust me ,
1/4 on the sdi really usable ,the difference on the monitor is not like the diff in the pics posted on this thread ...than render out higher rez...

g

BM card came in this morning:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5016/5434112060_fa58121cfe_z.jpg

Will do some testing and see if there's any darkness in the luminance chanel at 1/4 res over SDI.

Tim Whitcomb

02-21-2011, 01:45 PM

What scopes are you using here? Are those in the Resolve software?

Pablo debayer was shown compared to many by Cioni a year or two ago.

It was superior to RCX Scratch and Apple Color... was not done against Davinci

Andrae Palmer

02-21-2011, 01:49 PM

Yes those are the scopes in Davinci Resolve. Yeah I saw those tests that he did after researching the debayering issue on the forums recently. I was just pretty surprised to hear some people say that the RED Rocket card is not good enough for mastering. That blew me away. Never realized there were so many debayering algorithms with each being different.

Andrae Palmer

03-02-2011, 06:02 AM

so than when you have the SDI out you will realize how resolve at 1/4 res is really Quite OK ...i guess it does a good upscaling to HD ...

So if the system have no extra slot for rocket 1/4 res is good looking out of resolve sdi and handle more nodes ...

g

Just got a FSI 24" in yesterday... I can see the same 1/4 res difference. What type of display are you monitoring off? With a Mac Pro 12 core 2.66GHz or faster you can play footage realtime at 1/2 res good. Which is pretty decent... but I'm now of the opinion that a RED Rocket is still needed for an image without aliasing and true color fidelity and brightness.

Rob Ruffo

11-01-2011, 11:16 AM