Build 9 (1.5.0) first impressions

[Greg M]

This is a major update, thanks!

Clip playback is worth the cost of the upgrade alone :)
Clip playback works great, but it would be nice if you could browse thru the clips w/ thumbnails rather than scrolling back and forth one clip at a time. I realize this is the first version, just a suggestion.

The new waveforms are a great addition as well and the new improved Focus Assist looks like a major improvement, but I dont understand exactly how it works. Is there any documentation on Focus Assist yet?


There are several other additions I havent played with yet, but overall this a major update...Thanks again!

BTW- no new formats in this build.

[Simon Blackledge]

Is the playback 720P or higher?

Sounds like a good upgrade on it's own. Thanks for the swift update.


s

[Greg M]

its 720p, as is the outputs

[I Bloom]

This is a major update, thanks!

Clip playback is worth the cost of the upgrade alone :)
Clip playback works great, but it would be nice if you could browse thru the clips w/ thumbnails rather than scrolling back and forth one clip at a time. I realize this is the first version, just a suggestion.

The new waveforms are a great addition as well and the new improved Focus Assist looks like a major improvement, but I dont understand exactly how it works. Is there any documentation on Focus Assist yet?


There are several other additions I havent played with yet, but overall this a major update...Thanks again!

BTW- no new formats in this build.

Can you post a preview of the focus assist or is it still under wraps?

[Rocco Schult]

thanks for the news. sounds thrilling.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

its 720p, as is the outputs
Now ? is anything happened with monitoring situations with this clip playback ?

[Casey Green]

...Clip playback works great, but it would be nice if you could browse thru the clips w/ thumbnails rather than scrolling back and forth one clip at a time. I realize this is the first version, just a suggestion...


I had a similar suggestion in another thread a little while back:

"Animated Thumbnails", incase the thumbnail is black or they are difficult to distinguish from each other.

Here is the original post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=103477&postcount=8

RED Team, is this possible?

[David Battistella]

If I may, I will do my best to describe the focus assist. I think it will, like many other things RED, revolutionize the way we consider focus. Yes. A measuring tape is fine, shooting a laser out the lens is fine, but here is why I think that the Magic focus assist will be rapidly adopted as a tool.

The focus assist does a pixel analysis on the image data information. It determines which pixels in the frame are in the sharpest focus. In other words it is telling you which exact pixels in the image are the most sharp.

Then what it does is it represents these pixels by drawing a spike at the bottom of the screen that shoots up to show you where in the frame the sharpest pixels are. This means that if an actor were to walk through the focal range you would see the in focus spike move with the most in focus pixels.

Think of it as a histogram just for focus. If I am wrong about any of this then I am sure Graeme will correct me, but imagine being able to not only see what is in focus but to understand that the sharpest pixels in the frame are being represented with the focus assist.

Just think of the implications for green screen work. If the eyes are in focus then then spikes at the bottom of the frame will be directly below the eyes, etc.

To top it off I believe it is basing this on the 4K data and not the down converted monitoring, so it can't get anymore razor sharp then that. It also means that focus pullers can look at the histogram (and monitor) instead of the lens to assure great "spot on" focus.

Very very cool. Well done for coming up with this Graeme.

David

[Steve Sherrick]

Clip playback is worth the cost of the upgrade alone :)

Of course, I'm hoping you are joking about the cost part. I see a smiley there, so I will assume so. Had me panicked for a half a second or so.

Steve

[S. Um]

Think of it as a histogram just for focus. If I am wrong about any of this then I am sure Graeme will correct me, but imagine being able to not only see what is in focus but to understand that the sharpest pixels in the frame are being represented with the focus assist.

Just think of the implications for green screen work. If the eyes are in focus then then spikes at the bottom of the frame will be directly below the eyes, etc.



The magic focus sounds interesting, but if this is how it works, then I think there are plenty of situations where it can give a misleading reading. Using your example of the closeup of a person's face - if the person has his hands under his chin, but slightly in front of the face, the focus may give a bigger spike if the focus is on the hands (because the hands are bigger than the eyes). Also, the spike may be right under the eyes, so you might think eyes are in focus, when they're not.

Since the picture is 2-dimensional, it may be a good idea to put another graph on the vertical axis. Or better yet, just put a colored border around the pixels that are in focus. Maybe use a few different colors for different levels of focus. Just my .02.

[Joel Kaye]

Or better yet, just put a colored border around the pixels that are in focus.

That's where I think it needs to end up. The vertical only thing bothers me - but I haven't used it so maybe it'll be fine. Sony's got a new focus assist coming out with the EX CAM - or so I've heard. Have to see how well it works.

[Graeme Nattress]

Putting a coloured border on pixels that are "in focus" is what JVC does. However, it doesn't work as it's "on or off" and it's very hard to show degrees of focus, and in the act of doing so, you obscure the very bits of image data you need to see with your eyes to see if they are indeed in focus or not.

Just as a waveform monitor is on one axis only, it gives it's own view of the image that needs to be interpreted, focus graph is similar. It's another tool, a good tool, but as you get more practised, you'll get better results with it.

Graeme

[Jim Arthurs]

Does the focus assist also work on playback? That would be great for trying to check existing takes for critical focus...

[Greg M]

Graeme,
Can i post images so we can better discuss how this works?

[S. Um]

Putting a coloured border on pixels that are "in focus" is what JVC does. However, it doesn't work as it's "on or off" and it's very hard to show degrees of focus, and in the act of doing so, you obscure the very bits of image data you need to see with your eyes to see if they are indeed in focus or not.


A colored border may oscure the image, but if it is accurate, then one could argue that you don't need to see the image (or at least the part that is obscured). Of course, you could make it better by making the border semi-transparent, or using dotted lines or brackets or false color.

Regarding the degree of focus, how many times have you asked yourself if a certain point is 80 or 90% in focus? Probably never. You want to know if it's 100% in focus. Granted, the area 100% in focus may be too small to see (or non-existant) sometimes, so maybe you can have a user-selectable threshold, much like you can set thresholds for zebra.


Just as a waveform monitor is on one axis only, it gives it's own view of the image that needs to be interpreted, focus graph is similar. It's another tool, a good tool, but as you get more practised, you'll get better results with it.

Graeme

I agree that the focus assist is a useful tool as is. Like all tools, it has its advantages and disadvantages, and the user needs to have practice to use it well. But it's not often that you get to talk directly to the designer, so I'm just putting in a few suggestions on how I would improve it. Cheers.

[Stuart English]

Does the focus assist also work on playback? That would be great for trying to check existing takes for critical focus...

Yes Focus Assist does (or more accurately, it can) work in Playback. As will Luma Waveform or RGB Histogram. It depends on which one of these three you have sleected as your METER choice and if you have enabled the METER view.

[Joel Kaye]

Putting a coloured border on pixels that are "in focus" is what JVC does. However, it doesn't work as it's "on or off" and it's very hard to show degrees of focus, and in the act of doing so, you obscure the very bits of image data you need to see with your eyes to see if they are indeed in focus or not.

First, I really appreciate that you're including this function at all.

But this argument doesn't make sense to me.

The focus assist is so we don't have to rely on a 720P monitor to try to figure out what's in focus. If it's accurate I don't need to double check so I don't care if the edges are outlined. There is very little obscuring going on.
http://www.videokamery.cz/obrazky/9-hd100-B.jpg

If you're really tight on a person with the JVC you can paint the glasses frame apart from the pupil and rack between them.

I think a combination of the histogram plus JVC style and/or peaking might be good enough. Does RED have peaking yet?

I've never been clear on why I need to know how much things are out of focus. I just want to know what's in focus. Everything else is going to fall where it may. (OK it could help when I want a very precisely tuned DOF range and I'm not sure what aperture I need)

[Casey Green]

I had a similar suggestion in another thread a little while back:

"Animated Thumbnails", incase the thumbnail is black or they are difficult to distinguish from each other.

Here is the original post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=103477&postcount=8

RED Team, is this possible?

Graeme and/or Stuart, when you get a second, I'd love to hear more about this...

thanks,

[Nils Ruinet]

......As will Luma Waveform or RGB Histogram. ......

Cool, so there is also a Luma waveform now ? :waaa:
I thought there would only be a RGB histogram.
How big is the Luma waveform ? Can you switch to full screen overlay mode if you need to check it more precisely ?
And what about a vectorscope ? :innocent:

[Steve Sanacore]

All I would need is a button to go to 100% of a small area of the center of the sensor to confirm focus or set marks. Panasonic does this on the little HVX and it works well as a substitute for an optical viewfinder. Wouldn't that be a simple solution?

[Blue]

Putting a coloured border on pixels that are "in focus" is what JVC does. However, it doesn't work as it's "on or off" and it's very hard to show degrees of focus, and in the act of doing so, you obscure the very bits of image data you need to see with your eyes to see if they are indeed in focus or not.

Graeme

Ok, how about a second LCD alongside the first which shows level of focus in graded colours or outlines or whatever. This way it matters not a jot how obscured the image is by the focus guide. Has this been done before? If not, why not?

Did I just revolutionize the concept in a single post? Note, the post is date and time stamped so no-one else can claim the fame!

[Stuart English]

All I would need is a button to go to 100% of a small area of the center of the sensor to confirm focus or set marks. Panasonic does this on the little HVX and it works well as a substitute for an optical viewfinder. Wouldn't that be a simple solution?

We have had that feature for some time now...

[roryhinds]

Stuart is the magnify only x2 on the LCD and not 100%
or have i missed something?

[Bill Goehring]

We have had that feature for some time now...

Stuart, does the magnification tool actually magnify to 100%? If not, what is the degree of magnification?

[Greg M]

Stuart,
Can we post images of Focus Assist yet- it would help with these questions?

A few questions;
1. The highlighted area (in red bar) does not align when using the zoom in feature- in other word, if I move the bar to a certain area and then push the focus zoom button, the red bar is in another area of the shot. When zoomed in is the waveform seeing this new area or the original area I defined in the correct framing?

2. What is the green scale on the left represent?
3. occasionally I see a red line or red dot on the far left (in the green scale) or right side- what is this?

[Greg M]

Previous to this release I never "unmounted" my media...I simply pulled the card out. After reading the new manual I see that I should have unmounted the media first.

The two button "unmount" is nice. But a few times this caused the back camera display to go blank.

[Joel Kaye]

Stuart is the magnify only x2 on the LCD and not 100%
or have i missed something?

I thought it was 2x but I could be totally wrong. Not sure.. but I do know that does NOT help you if you trying to follow focus on subjects that are moving. It's fine for setting marks though. But if you're tracking a wolf through the woods good luck with a magnifying solution.

Maybe the viewfinder is sharp enough by itself to focus. I haven't had enough time on one to really determine that.

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Hearing about the magic focus assist, it really sounds good!
Congratulations Graeme, sounds like a great tool.
Such a simple concept, why hasn't anyone thought of that?

[I Bloom]

First, I really appreciate that you're including this function at all.

But this argument doesn't make sense to me.

The focus assist is so we don't have to rely on a 720P monitor to try to figure out what's in focus. If it's accurate I don't need to double check so I don't care if the edges are outlined. There is very little obscuring going on.
http://www.videokamery.cz/obrazky/9-hd100-B.jpg

If you're really tight on a person with the JVC you can paint the glasses frame apart from the pupil and rack between them.

I think a combination of the histogram plus JVC style and/or peaking might be good enough. Does RED have peaking yet?

I've never been clear on why I need to know how much things are out of focus. I just want to know what's in focus. Everything else is going to fall where it may. (OK it could help when I want a very precisely tuned DOF range and I'm not sure what aperture I need)

We've discussed this in the past. Some of us, including Graeme came to the conclusion that the JVC system doesn't actually assist you in reading focus but unstead finds high contrast edges, which can exist in out of focus regions. In fact no realtime algorithm exists that can really show you what edges are in focus.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3328&page=5

Seeing a graph that shows you how much some parts of the image are out of focus, can help you visualize the entire depth of field of what you are recording.

Red's system, as I understand it, is that you focus by eye or by measurement and then use the focus assist you give you that tiny tweak you need to get it sharp at 4K... but I have yet to get this baby in my hands.

IBloom

[Scott Webster]

At what point does build 9 get signed off and become a stable release?

[Stuart English]

Maybe the viewfinder is sharp enough by itself to focus. I haven't had enough time on one to really determine that.

You know that really is the bottom line - and we believe that it is...

[Joel Kaye]

You know that really is the bottom line - and we believe that it is...

I hope you're right! I also hope you've got one for me when my camera comes up. Perhaps the delay will allow some of the accessories to stock up.

[Greg M]

any update on when the evf will ship?... I have a hard time focusing with the LCD.

[Joel Kaye]

any update on when the evf will ship?... I have a hard time focusing with the LCD.

How's the Focus Assist working out for you so far? I'd think since it's in the wild you could post some pics. Or did everyone agree to an NDA when they got access?

[Christian Berg]

Is the focus assist like the one in Panasonics AG-HPX500? It´s like a histogram but not really...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/294_1194279062.png

[Michael Schrengohst]

I saw that at NAB, it was useless.

[Greg M]

What are the three colored blocks next to "Temp OK"...occasionally a check mark will move between them?

[Greg M]

Overall Build 9 seems fairly stable, with the exception of playback mode which seems to lock-up if you move between clips quickly. This has happened about 4 times.

I had a few "codex errors" with build 8, but so far none in build 9. In both build 8 and 9 I never experienced a "crash" that rendered the camera inoperable for more than 2-3 minutes.

[Scott Webster]

What are the three colored blocks next to "Temp OK"...occasionally a check mark will move between them?

Quick RGB Exposure indicator. Put a solid color in front of the camera and open the iris.

[Poi Boy]

I've had trouble with playback as well, specifically with getting out of playback mode. The only way out for me has been to unmout the cf card and a few times that led to other complications.The pdf intructions on getting into playback mode are inacurate so maybe the intructions for getting out are wrong as well. I did not have the benefit of Red day so the learning curve is probably a bit higher for me, I've only had a couple of days so far to learn the ins and outs of the camera. All I can say is wow! it has surpassed my very high expectations.
Aloha
-A

[Scott Webster]

Overall Build 9 seems fairly stable, with the exception of playback mode which seems to lock-up if you move between clips quickly. This has happened about 4 times.

I had a few "codex errors" with build 8, but so far none in build 9. In both build 8 and 9 I never experienced a "crash" that rendered the camera inoperable for more than 2-3 minutes.

Locked up the camera while displaying the Focus Assist. Couldn't exit the menu or gain access to any other menu. Power down and disconnect to clear.

[Poi Boy]

I locked up last night after trying to get out of playback of some 2K 72fps footage and could not power down. I disconnected the battery, waited a minute reconnected and powered up but it would not boot. I tried a few times and no luck so I went to bed. This morning it booted fine...anybody experience something like this ?
Aloha
-A

[Greg M]

Quick RGB Exposure indicator. Put a solid color in front of the camera and open the iris.


Then what are the check marks that occasionally appear inside the boxes?

[Scott Webster]

Then what are the check marks that occasionally appear inside the boxes?

Build 9 is ugly. Camera has booted twice and locked up on the last menu shown. In this case the waveform display. Heading back to 1.3.6

[Joel Kaye]

All I can say is wow! it has surpassed my very high expectations.

Congratulations Poi Boy!

I need to invent a project that needs to be shot in Hawaii.:red_bandana:

[Poi Boy]

Right on joelnet, life is what you invent.
Aloha
-A

[Brook Willard]

I've found build 9 beta to be quite unstable. About 80% of the time, menus will be non-responsive in the back of the camera. When the menus were active, they'd randomly cease functioning. It took about 10 reboots to downgrade to the previous firmware.

Doesn't bother me - it's beta firmware - but dammit... I wanted to play with some of the new toys!

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Steve and I had a similar issue when we upgraded for some overcranked 2K and then went to downgrade back to the 9/25 build for straight 2:1 4K. It took 3 tries before it got happy with the older build. Not sure why this is, just don't panic if your first attempt to re-flash the firmware seems to have failed. To my knowledge repeating the up or downgrade procedure will eventually drive out the bugs and order will be restored.

On this same note I advise patience when the computer, I mean camera, no I mean computer, is acting up. Pull the plug to the battery and wait at least 30 seconds, let everything reset - plug it back in and wait some more - then hit the power button.

I don't want to embarrass anybody but on one of my gigs the camera department (who was working directly with the camera while I was cloning CF cards) started telling me that you had to cycle the power at least 3 times to get the camera to work. I found it odd that I could always get it back on track with only one power cycle, turns out they were punching the button every few seconds without giving it time to clear the registers or whatever it does when powered down. Those extra 20 or 30 seconds may seem like forever with an entire production waiting on you but in my experience its worth every second it takes to shoo the gremlins so that you have hours of trouble free operations ahead instead of minutes.

TREAT IT LIKE A COMPUTER with a beta OS - because it is.

[Steve Sanacore]

...

TREAT IT LIKE A COMPUTER with a beta OS - because it is.

Is this an official statement? Or is it stable for a work environment in an earlier firmware version with some options turned off?

I am always out there bragging about this camera to my piers and my clients - but I wouldn't be willing to shoot with one until "lockup" problems are resolved. And as geeky as I am, I don't want to be dealing with uploading firmware on-set while everyone waits around killing any momentum and confidence in the footage.

There are many "film" people out there wanting to see RED fail. So let's all make sure current users stay on top of these issues.

[Greg M]

Is this an official statement? Or is it stable for a work environment in an earlier firmware version with some options turned off?

I am always out there bragging about this camera to my piers and my clients - but I wouldn't be willing to shoot with one until "lockup" problems are resolved. And as geeky as I am, I don't want to be dealing with uploading firmware on-set while everyone waits around killing any momentum and confidence in the footage.

There are many "film" people out there wanting to see RED fail. So let's all make sure current users stay on top of these issues.

The version we are discussing is a BETA BUILD, not the release build which is recommended.

btw- I find that I need to reboot twice after flashing...after the first reboot the firmware crashes or slows down...a second reboot and I have been pretty stable except for playback. I'll try it out again today and see if I can crash it w/o going into playback mode.

[Stuart English]

Then what are the check marks that occasionally appear inside the boxes?

Exposure hints.. i.e when do each of R G B channels hit a range of values just prior to upper / lower clip.

[Stuart English]

Locked up the camera while displaying the Focus Assist. Couldn't exit the menu or gain access to any other menu. Power down and disconnect to clear.

Try this, and please let me know if it dos or does not work. If the above happens, go to the VIEWFINDER menu and uncheck the METERS box. Then press the EXIT key, is camera operation restored?

[Joel Kaye]

Exposure hints.. i.e when do each of R G B channels hit a range of values just prior to upper / lower clip.

Nice idea!

[Scott Webster]

Try this, and please let me know if it dos or does not work. If the above happens, go to the VIEWFINDER menu and uncheck the METERS box. Then press the EXIT key, is camera operation restored?

Stuart, screen was stuck and all buttons were locked up. There was no menu access via buttons or the ability to 'Exit' or 'Undo'.

Happened while displaying Focus Assist once and another with Luma Waveform up.

[Greg M]

1.51 is posted

[Stuart English]

1.5.1 is posted

And should address the lockup issue. Thanks for the feedback guys.

As always with a new build please test in your application before placing on a job...

BTW - With the camera powered up, press the UNDO key plus the Joystick to force the Status Display to show the camera's P.I.N number (which may say n/a) plus the firmware Build number and version number plus "usage meter" - this in quoted in minutes not hours at the moment.

[Greg M]

And should address the lockup issue. Thanks for the feedback guys.

As always with a new build please test in your application before placing on a job...

BTW - With the camera powered up, press the UNDO key plus the Joystick to force the Status Display to show the camera's P.I.N number (which may say n/a) plus the firmware Build number and version number plus "usage meter" - this in quoted in minutes not hours at the moment.

Thanks Stuart.

I also noticed w/ 1.5 that I am unable to set the clock. I have not tried with other builds or 1.51 yet. It is off by 13 hrs.

I'll do some more tests when I get in the studio this am.

Is there a seperate system clock besides the time of day TC?

[Greg M]

ver 1.5.1

How do you change the system time???
I went into TIMECODE and when I change the hours to the correct hour, it does not stick. My clock is 13 hours off.

EDIT:
When I select JAM SYNC it syncs, but when I unselect JAM SYNC it does not revert to time of day.

Shouldnt we have a separate internal clock?

[Greg M]

MORE INFO ON 1.5.1

So far I have been unable to crash this firmware. Playback is rock solid now. I am also able to instantly record from playback mode and then jump right back into playback...very fast!

It appears that playback quality has been lowered...is this my imagination? I see alot of banding in playback.

Another issue- It seems that the fan is now louder when recording than in the previous firmware (setting is the same- QUIET).

[Häakon]

It appears that playback quality has been lowered...is this my imagination? I see alot of banding in playback.
According to the release history page, since the first release of build 9 (1.5.0), they "Removed Image Analysis from Playback mode to prevent camera lock-up." Perhaps this is contributing to lower quality review.

Good to hear it's not crashing on you, however... I was having problems with the camera locking up just doing standard things like changing the shutter speed.

[Greg M]

we pushed it pretty hard today, and so far not a single crash.
shot 4K, 2k, 4K 2:1, 23.98, 24, 30...bounced back and forth...played back, swapped cards, recorded, etc etc.
Not one freeze...also noticed a few new features along the way.

[Greg M]

Focus assist zoom now allows you to pan around the image with the joystick....very nice!

[Greg M]

a few things I found today:
1. The power button on the LCD will toggle the Focus Assist on/off....NICE!!
2. Joystick L/R will shrink/enlarge Focus Assist window

btw- day 2 of shooting and firmware is still rock solid.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Installed 1.5.1 yesterday and not one crash. Good stuff!

[roryhinds]

when is 16:9 coming?

[Greg M]

maybe w/ Red Cine

[Barend Onneweer]

Hi,

We'll be shooting RED on the 23rd and 24th of november. One day will be bluescreen.

I'd love to hook up an HDMI preview feed to a computer to do a live previz of the composite (using Livefeed and After Effects).

But of course this would only work when multiple simultaneous outputs are available, since I wouldn't want to deprive the cam-op of his viewfinder.

Any ETA on multiple simultaneous outputs? I should know better than to ask - but I'll try anyway :shiftyph34r:

Bar3nd

[Graeme Nattress]

Barend, I'd recommend green screen over blue screen if possible.

Graeme

[Brook Willard]

Nice, 1.51 officially rocks my world.

[dino g]

i have been using 1.50 & 1.51 since the moment they were released. i have done 5 jobs with it and 4 demos and not one problem...most stable format yet.