Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group [Archive] - Page 2

Michael Hastings

04-08-2007, 09:31 PM

Here's an excerpt on why the Tamron lens is better for Macro work...

Regarding lens for Macro, the housing flat port will be pretty much customized for whatever you want - we can use interchangeable ports on the same frontplate as the dome or make a separate front plate for the macro port and it won't make a lot of difference as far as cost. My point was that the BBC's choice was probably as much about availability in PL mount as anything. I'm certainly not hung up on Canon - my main interest is due to the availability of the Birger mount. (In fact I'm already a Tokina and Sigma dealer and pretty sure I can buy Tamron as a dealer also.) I think there will be a number of actual on the RED lens tests done by some of our earlier reservists before most of us get our cameras, and we'll benefit from that feedback.

If you go with the Canon mount, you will have a large choice of primes and zooms from at least 3 or 4 manufacturers that could provide excellent results and it will be fairly easy to accommodate any of them.

The actual mount position of the camera in the housing is determined by the wide lens because of extreme wide view, the use of the dome, and because it is usually the shortest physically. The longer focal lengths use the flat port which is easier to make and is much less critical for positioning and most of the longer focal lengths can be accommodated quite easily.

I am simply going to print a series of $81 checks payable to Aquavideo and mail them weekly cuz I see where this is going:

I'm sure you know I'm just razzin' you, and if you get us hooked up with Gibby's #8 everything will be jake.

IF I were to buy your product I would definitely request that the housing not be finished in Yum Yum Yellow.

So what do you have against AquaVideo yellow? - which is also Dacor Yellow, Cousteau yellow, Sea and Sea (although theirs is a little more lemony - ours a deep yellow), etc. It has a long tradition in the dive industry and it is a bit like Ferrari red - it's our trademark color which we generally use except for special situations.

Mark Thorpe

04-09-2007, 12:21 AM

AquaVideoRed206 - So what do you have against AquaVideo yellow? - which is also Dacor Yellow, Cousteau yellow, Sea and Sea (although theirs is a little more lemony - ours a deep yellow), etc. It has a long tradition in the dive industry and it is a bit like Ferrari red - it's our trademark color which we generally use except for special situations.

Mike, I've got absolutely nothing against AquaVideo Yellow. Just a personal thing. I like to be as inconspicuous as possible (albeit on open circuit) with my dive gear and camera gear. I don't go for the multi colored suits or accessories. People I dive with say I look more like a Ninja than a diver. Some, not all, of the logos on my suits due to size and contrast have been blacked out, ripped off or made to blend. If you want to make your housing yellow then thats your choice. Just mentioning that IF I decide to go with it I will tell you now, not to expect it to look like your shiny yellow product for long.

Cheers,
Mark.

Mike the beginner

04-09-2007, 02:05 AM

There are a lot of new still lenses coming out by various companies. The info i read on wide angle lenses indicates that whatever lens is chosen it has to have been tested by others perhaps above and below water to see how they perform.

I think Mark is just playing safe with the tamron which is understandible. I get the impression most pro users at the top of the tree tend to ignore some of the lesser brands and stick to the acknowledged top makes of lenses though.

It could be that some of the less respected brands such as Tokina and Tamron are starting to catch up on the "best brands" as the technology and methods used to make the lenses becomes quite similar.

Might be wise to keep an open mind and wait to see what ideas spring from NAB THEN see what the options are for selecting the various lenses etc.

Hmmm......yellow me thinks i would paint mine black!

Mike the beginner

Michael Hastings

04-09-2007, 07:06 AM

Mike, I've got absolutely nothing against AquaVideo Yellow. Just a personal thing. Mark.

I hear you.

Just mentioning that IF I decide to go with it I will tell you now, not to expect it to look like your shiny yellow product for long.

Cheers,
Mark.

BTW the Aluminum housings are normally black hardcoat. For PVC I try to hold the line on the yellow since it is a trademark, and if I didn't I would get requests for 20 different colors. But maybe with the RED it would be OK to differentiate it a bit. If I were to offer another color what would people like for their RED UW system? Pro Black? Deep blue - probably the least conspicuous and what we used for the Seaworld housing that filmed the killer whale birth? Red for RED? There are hundreds of colors of the vinyl but the particular type I use is a special very thick material that is tougher and also easier to cut around the wings and such, and is only available in about a dozen colors. It is fairly expensive (actually costs more than the tube) so it would be nice to get a little consensus. Mike the beginner has already voted for black, and that is probably the direction I would lean as well.

Too bad we won't see you at NAB - should be exciting and it'd be nice to get the bubble blowers together for lunch one day.

Ken Corben

04-09-2007, 10:08 AM

Deep Blue on the PVC sounds very slick. I am still leaning towards white powder coat on my aluminum housing.

Mike the beginner

04-09-2007, 11:25 AM

Deep Blue on the PVC sounds very slick. I am still leaning towards white powder coat on my aluminum housing.

My underwater stuff will be with salmon and sea trout with seals a likely possibility as well. The fish are very easiliy spooked so any housing that does not jump out at you in brightness or prone to flashy reflections would be fine with me.

Mike the beginner

Ken Corben

04-09-2007, 08:08 PM

Mike the beginner

04-10-2007, 11:04 AM

So Jacques Perrin (Oscar winning Director of Winged Migration) has a $40 million dollar budget for his new epic feature OCEANS. Shot mostly with "highly modified cinealtas" and slated for a Fall '08 release. This will be an amazing film based on his previous accomplishments.

Here's a link to an interview about the project:

http://www.sustainable-development.veolia.com/en/more/news/9FC8fXs7I2xP7iFn1Bsi.aspx?offset=16

I want to take my feature film Changing Tides (ehem, digital cinema release per Gibby nomenclature) to the next level in image capture and storytelling. Can you say RED 3-D underwater?

One to watch out for great stuff. Hey it mentioned here if i quote:

The film is scheduled for release in 2007 and we hope to finish it in late 2006. May the gods be with us...

So is it late 08 or the above?

I love people like that, they help this twisted world at times to wake up to what is hapening in our world. Would be nice if those in power were held to account for destroying the worlds natural resources.

Mike the beginner

Mark Thorpe

04-10-2007, 03:21 PM

AquaVideoRed206 - If I were to offer another color what would people like for their RED UW system? Pro Black? Deep blue - probably the least conspicuous and what we used for the Seaworld housing that filmed the killer whale birth? Red for RED?

If I had a choice / say in the matter I would opt for black. To choose one of the other options mentioned here I would say Red due to its color performance at depth. My choice doesn't necessarily reflect that of others.

sharkguy......"has a $40 million dollar budget for his new epic feature OCEANS. Shot mostly with "highly modified cinealtas" and slated for a Fall '08 release. This will be an amazing film based on his previous accomplishments".

Wahhhhh, if only. This should be a very nice piece but shooting over not even an entire season eliminates the potential for full seasonal variation in species behavior methinks?

Hey sharkguy, if you want to hear of a good project with a solid idea platform, an easy deliverable concept and the potential to attract big budgets drop me a PM. I have a treatment idea I have been working on for a while.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

04-10-2007, 07:07 PM

Mark,

Honored to be considered a producer for your pet project. Check your PM for confidential details.

Mike,

Underwater 3-D intro/screening scheduled set check your PM.

Mark Thorpe

04-11-2007, 03:42 PM

Hi Ken,
No problems re: PM. I'll get it sent to you some time in the next day or so. Just a brief outline. If you think there's credibility I can send in greater detail.

Just got a +11 achromatic diopter for the Lembeh Straits trip. Planning to do full frontals of the Pygmy Seahorse :tongue: sexy stuff man

Congrats,
Mark.

Ken Corben

04-11-2007, 08:57 PM

Very Exciting!

Mark, Mike and all the other underwater Red adoptors this is an exciting time for our genre. I look forward to working as a team with all of you other passionate story tellers in this community to advance the underwater filmmaking medium by pushing the envelope in both technology (RED 4K) and storytelling.

Let's make some history!

Mark Thorpe

04-12-2007, 12:33 AM

......the idea and CC'd accordingly. Have a gander, let me know the Bobby and we'll be roasty toasty.......speaking in code!

Cheers,
Mark.

Andrew M.

04-12-2007, 01:51 PM

I don’t think that Canon 10-22 will be good for 4K or even 2K.
I was watching some Discovery programs on HDTV and all new material do not have much of CA and I am bit more sensitive now watching the programs.
In turn when I take my stills done with 10-22 lenses and put on the HDTV screen I see CA and looks ugly.
Maybe they correct CA in post or something but I have seen some corrected stills and it is not 100% correction, more like 50 or 60%

There is new Canon though 16-35 II 2.8L see below links, so far good feedback.
I will buy it soon for still photography, if nothing better will show up for upcoming Ds III 22MP Canon

EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=148&modelid=14907

http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=313

Andrew

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by: AquaVideoRed206

Andrew:

It seems that chromatic aberration is the big bugaboo on the wide angles - I remember you were kind of down on the Canon EF-S 10-22, but it seems it was one of the first tests you did, and I am wondering if you have done any reevaluation based on what can be reasonable expected out of an extreme wide angle. Have you done any side by side comparisons on the 8R and the 10-22 and maybe one of the other L series or Sigma/Tamron versions of very wide still lenses. Obviously, CA is more difficult to correct on the wide lenses than on the normal to short telephoto lenses - I am trying to get a sense of what is reasonable to expect out of a wide angle at the various price points and/or regardless of price. As you know we want as wide as reasonably possible underwater. The water clarity becomes a limiting factor the farther you are away from the subject so we are looking to figure out where the sweet spots are.

From what I understand CA is fairly easy to correct in software for stills but given the thousands of frames in motion pictures it would be nice if we could avoid all of that post processing - but it may be necessary no matter what if it is an inherent problem on all of the lenses. (I.E. if an 8R only needs two pixel correction at the edges and none at the middle, and a 10-22 needs 4 pixel correction at the edges and one in the middle then we don't actually get a huge benefit spending the extra $24K because both can be significantly improved in software and as far as I can tell once you get into it it won't make much difference in terms of time whether it is a little correction or a lot.) My understanding from here and from other photographic sites is that the software can be set up for specific lenses and you can get essentially perfect correction.

Maybe the answer as to what are we going to do with the wide angle shots is "fix it in post". For us underwater bubble blowers it may be better to shoot that extreme wide 10 mm to shoot through less water than to shoot with a higher quality 12 or 14mm lens. In other words, we can't easily fix the water clarity in post, but we can fix the known chromatic aberrations of the lens. Obviously, the 8mm is even better in terms of wide angle but $25K is a big chunk of change.

PS we may want to copy this over to the underwater thread as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
ARRI/Zeiss Master Prime 65mm T1.3 Test

As my Test of Ultra Prime 8R lenses, this is not a full review but looking closer at important aspects of the lenses in terms of Misterium 12MP resolving power.

I put it on the projector, used the same black background test chart and I couldn’t believe what I have seen. No chromatic aberration at all at 200Lp/mm and 5.6
The estimated light modulation on this 200Lp/mm square about 50%
The test pattern shown below is located near the right edge of the charts S35 frame in section E.

Yes, I got good advice from some forums out there, if you are quality freak then don’t touch anything below 50mm focal length and go for the sweet spot.

And what are we going to do with the wide angle shots?

I will do the Cooke S4 /I 65 test next.

Andrew

Michael Hastings

04-12-2007, 05:00 PM

That would be great if the RED was a full frame SLR size sensor but I just don't think 16mm is wide enough for your main wide angle underwater lens. It is equivalent to a 25mm on 35mm SLR - not very wide. I think we should be thinking 14mm at most - 12 would be about equivalent to what we have normally been shooting with in video the last 5 to 10 years and 10 or 11mm is equivalent to where we have been getting to in the past few years - i.e. 4.2mm to 5.5 mm on the wide side of wide angle zooms for broadcast 2/3" cameras.

We need to find the best solution available.

Maybe one of these?
Sigma AF 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM

Sigma 14mm f2.8 EX Aspherical

Tamron SP AF14MM F/2.8 Aspherical (IF)

I don’t think that Canon 10-22 will be good for 4K or even 2K.

There is new Canon though 16-35 II 2.8L see below links, so far good feedback.
I will buy it soon for still photography, if nothing better will show up for upcoming Ds III 22MP Canon

EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=148&modelid=14907

http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=313

Andrew

Andrew

Andrew M.

04-13-2007, 07:07 AM

We need to find the best solution available.

Maybe one of these?
Sigma AF 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM

Sigma 14mm f2.8 EX Aspherical

Tamron SP AF14MM F/2.8 Aspherical (IF)

Sigma 10-20 is this Aspherical design?

Let's see if I can get hold of Sigma 14mm Aspherical.
Do you know how much it cost?

Though 14 mm on S35 that has 28mm neutral is like you said 25mm on 135DSLR format that neutral there is 50mm

12mm would be the best one.
Is there Sigma Aspherical 12mm?

I just posted the pictures of the charts from UP8R test, in post #27 there.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1381&page=3
http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=417&d=1176471905
http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=419&d=1176471905

Check it and let me know if we can live with it.

Nowhere near the 65mm one.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=415&d=1176398283

Michael Hastings

04-13-2007, 08:21 AM

Andrew: I think all of these modern superwides are aspherical - it is the only reasonable way to do it. I think ultimately we might want to pool some funds and buy a couple of samples of each and test them all and return what we don't want. I haven't bought much in a few years but I think I am still a Sigma dealer so maybe could get some loaners, but I think we might want to just get a couple of each of what they actually ship to see what we really get in the real world. From what I have read on other sites when we actually choose a lens we will want to purchase multiples and pick the best one. We also need to work with Erik at Birger to verify good operation with their mount.

I'm adding this after the stuff that follows: I have looked at a lot of test reports then got to rockwell's with actual pictures at 12mm - he was testing versus his Nikon 12-24. The Sigma 10-20 did very poorly on the center sharpness so probably a definite no. The Tokina and Tamron compared pretty well on center and edge sharpness - but Nikon was clearly better on edge. The kicker is that in his review of the Canon EF-S 10-22, he clearly states that it is definitely better than his beloved Nikon 12-24. Re: the Canon 10-22 "This is a great lens. It's so great it makes me want to swap over to Canon from Nikon, because it's better than my favorite Nikon 12 - 24 mm lens. It's better because it has less distortion and costs less. I paid over $1,000 for my Nikon; this superior 10 - 22 sells for $700" One of the criticisms of Rockwell is he is Nikon-centric so that is pretty high praise.

I'm getting a headache: So again - we just are going to have to do our own tests. I think we might end up with the EF-S 10-22 for the still lens solution since it will probably immediately interface well with the Birger mount, and nothing else will be much better, and from there it will be some high dollar cine lens for the absolute peak in quality.

Written before but useful:

Shutterbug tested the Sigma, Tokina and Tamron Superwide zooms and basically rated them in that order with the Tokina maybe a little higher overall than the Sigma but the Sigma rated best on the wide side which is what we need most.

http://www.shutterbug.com/equipmentreviews/lenses/0206indy/

Here are some likely suspects with prices and features:

Sigma Zoom Super Wide Angle 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM Autofocus Lens for Canon Digital SLR Cameras • B&H# SI102045DCAF $ 499.00.
Correction for various types of aberration provided by three SLD (Special Low Dispersion) glass element and two aspherical lenses.

--------
Sigma Zoom Super Wide Angle 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM Autofocus Lens for Canon EOS Our Price: $ 689.00
This is designed for full frame so we would be shooting through center - SLR effective focal length of 19.2 which is about where we want to be as a good compromise - about 95 degrees diagonal. KenRockwell gives it a poor review for sharpness so unless it has been updated it's a bummer. On the other hand customers on fredmiranda.com give it excellent reviews including sharpness - so what to believe?

Four Special Low Dispersion (SLD) glass elements are provided for effective compensation of color aberration, which is a common problem with super-wide angle lenses

Two pieces of Glass Mold and one-piece hybrid aspherical lenses offer excellent correction for distortion as well as all types of aberration

Minimum focusing distance of 11" (28 cm) at all focal lengths

---------
Tamron Zoom Super Wide Angle SP 11-18mm f/4.5-5.6 Di-II LD Aspherical (IF) Lens for Canon Digital EOS Mfr# AF013C700 • B&H# TA111845CAFOur Price: $ 569.00 Price After Rebate: $ 519.00
Special Glass Optimized for Digital SLR

The lens has one element each of HID (High Index/High Dispersion glass) and LD (Low Dispersion) glass to minimize on-axis and lateral chromatic aberrations that are the greatest hindrance to high optical quality. In addition, the lens uses a high-precision, large clear aperture, glass-molded hybrid aspherical element and two hybrid aspherical elements to thoroughly compensate for spherical and chromatic aberrations and distortion, in order to achieve outstanding optical quality.

Internal Surface Coating to Reduce Ghosting and Flare

Lens features Internal Surface Coatings (i.e., multiple-layer coatings on cemented surfaces of plural elements) and new multiple-layer coating technology on ordinary elements in order to minimize reflections that occur when light enters through the front element and to reduce image degrading effects caused by the imagers themselves.

Enhanced Peripheral Illumination

Peripheral light fall-off is minimized when compared with that of conventional lenses for film cameras so that images are uniformly bright from the center to the periphery.

------

Tokina Zoom Super Wide Angle AF 12-24mm f/4 AT-X 124AF Pro DX Autofocus Lens for Canon Digital Cameras
Mfr# ATX124AFPROC • B&H# TO122440CAF$ 499.95

Key Features

Fast, ultra-wide angle zoom lens with a constant f/4 aperture

Two Aspherical lens elements minimize distortion, especially at the periphery, for superior optical performance

Long focus travel for easy, accurate manual focusing

The rounded diaphragm opening (9 blades) makes out-of-focus elements appear more natural

Chrome plated brass mount plate and all-metal zoom unit

Sigma 10-20 is this Aspherical design?

Let's see if I can get hold of Sigma 14mm Aspherical.
Do you know how much it cost?

--------

Though 14 mm on S35 that has 28mm neutral is like you said 25mm on 135DSLR format that neutral there is 50mm

12mm would be the best one.
Is there Sigma Aspherical 12mm?

I just posted the pictures of the charts from UP8R test, in post #27 there.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1381&page=3
http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=417&d=1176471905
http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=419&d=1176471905

Check it and let me know if we can live with it.

Nowhere near the 65mm one.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=415&d=1176398283

Michael Hastings

04-13-2007, 09:09 AM

Another possibility is the Sigma 12-24 ($689) which when it came out won lens of the year awards. Gets an excellent review at 16-9.net with comparison photos to Nikon and Canon 14mm primes.

Again we will be shooting with center 60% of this lens. It basically beat the 14mm primes, the tradeoff is F4.5 vs. F2.8 for the primes. (Sigma also makes a 14mm F2.8 prime.) This is the one Ken Rockwell gives somewhat poor reviews as listed in my previous post.

From the review:
conclusion: Sigma 12-24 compared to Nikon 14,, and Canon 14mm. Buy the Sigma.
http://16-9.net/lens_tests/14mm/14mm_test.html

This test has been rather more exhaustive/exhausting than usual, exploring many (not all) aspects of this group's behaviour, but the bottom line is that the Sigma is uncommonly well behaved for such a wide lens. To recap: it has no geometric distortion at 12mm, 14mm, 18mm or even 20mm. It has no chromatic aberrations. And it's fairly sharp. Oh, and it costs one third the price of the Canon.

To be fair, the Canon deserves to cost a shedload: it is fully 1.75 stops faster than the Sigma, it is compact and beautifully built, it has very well controlled distortion and it is sharp to the corners by f8. And you can't say that about many lenses wider than 24mm. Canon's wide lenses take a lot of flak, but this one is genuinely world class. I'm not saying that it wouldn't benefit from a bit of 'Digital Edition' trickery to keep the CA down, but on the whole it lives up to the expectations raised by the red ring on its rim.

The Nikon, however, is a stinker. As ever, it's always possible this sample isn't representative, but too many other reviewers have found the same problems with distortion for me to doubt these results too profoundly. Avoid.

Actually, given the problems I've had finding a 12-24mm worth keeping, the best advice I can offer is rather: buy LOTS of Sigmas; a good one is a gem, and accordingly worth hunting for.

The 12-24mm F4.5-5.6 EX DG ASPHRICAL HSM ultra-wide zoom lens, with an incredible 122-degree angle of view, wins EISA EUROPEAN LENS OF THE YEAR 2004-2005 award.

David Nardini

04-14-2007, 03:04 PM

Andrew / AquaVideo,

As a user of Canon 1Ds bodies, I could not test the 10-22 lens.

Tracked down a friend with a D400, popped down to Jessops today (kind enough to let me try one out) and took a few pics at the 10mm end. Apologies for the subject matter, but picked the 'best' view from the Jessops front shop location.

I've put the results at :

http://h2opixels.smugmug.com/gallery/2711007

(the original files are also there for those who wants to download & look at the files in your own time)

The D400 has a pretty small viewing hole, which combined with the slow lens, made focusing interesting (AKA challenging).
I hope the RED 'focusing solution' will make this simpler for us ;-)

Did take similar sequences (on the D400) with the following :

Nikkor 17-35/2.8
Sigma 14/3.5

Will post these to the same URL as above, ASAP (ran out of time at the mo).

I know the D400 is not quite a RED equivalent (eg : Nikon D2X), but just wanted to see how the 10-22 stacks up.

I'll leave you to come up with your own conclusions ... :biggrin:

Mark Thorpe

04-14-2007, 09:31 PM

This is all good stuff guys. Just kicking back today so just browsing through things.

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

04-14-2007, 10:13 PM

Jellyfish Lake in Palau.

Personally I love the place. The walk with the cam over the hill is a bit of a bugger though but well worth it. Went there two days ago and this shot was done from one of our guests. Even though the estimated 16 million Jellyfish don't really sting some people have a reaction to them. Me, sometimes I come back looking like Mick Jagger with really puffed up lips. Not much I can do about that though.

Anyway, enjoy.
Mark.

http://www.4koceanstock.com/Images/JFLGates.jpg

Andrew M.

04-15-2007, 06:18 AM

Steve Gibby

04-15-2007, 06:24 AM

Me, sometimes I come back looking like Mick Jagger with really puffed up lips. Not much I can do about that though.

Hmmm...capitalize on that dude...on those nights hit the Karaoke bars, have 'em rack up a few Stones tunes...and belt 'em out! :biggrin:

Ken Corben

04-15-2007, 08:53 AM

Nice friggin' shot of jellyfish lake Mark - very cool. I remember humping a Digi Beta in a Pace housing with a back pack loaded with batteries and tapes into the lake. Not as bad as Howard and Bob hauling their IMAX 3-D camera and housing though/

The Red camera and housing will be a simple joy to haul into the lake and around the world :-)

Off to the Apple presentation at the Venetian. Love the products not to keen on the "scientology" presentation style/corporate mantras.

Mark Thorpe

04-15-2007, 08:41 PM

Yeah, that shot was taken by none other than.........a rank amateur with a Canon A540 point and shoot 6MP camera in one of those PVC housings! Great result though, after playing around with it in Photoshop.

Gibby, great idea. Plus I can authenticate the look with the Bri'ish accent mate. "I can't get no ....... dah dah dahh ..... sa'isfakshun".

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

04-16-2007, 01:06 AM

Big Hello from a friend of yours,
Hanging here in Palau with Amos who will be able to tell you first hand about the bait ball action. He was in Ulong today to take some shots. Crappy day mind you, black, rainy and low viz. Can't have it all I guess.

Anyway, big hi to you.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

04-18-2007, 09:58 AM

Amos Nachoum - one of the greatest underwater still photographers of all time. His "eye" continually amazes me. Plus he's very funny in the field. You chewing his ear off about your RED camera - Gates housing etc?

Sorry you did not make NAB - you didn't miss much. It's kinda' like when they announced sound and then color for the movies :-)

Mark Thorpe

04-19-2007, 03:30 PM

Yep he's getting teased alright. I led him into a place we call the Temple of Doom yesterday. Its a small cave that branches off in the back of the Blue Holes dive site. Basically a small cave system where sea turtles have gone in and been unable to find their way out. The skeletons are a nice photo op. Some people get freaked out in the place but I like the whole atmosphere.

I think I may also be in the process of turning him to the "RED side". He's very interested in the whole product and has been following the progress since the beginning. I think his main desire is to see how a frame grab from 4k RAW is gonna stand up against an image from his DSLR's of choice. If it can equal or better that then we have a convert.

He wants to take a look at a unit asap. Gibby, hope you don't mind but I gave him your company web address so he may be contacting you. This guy's skill is amazing. I've been looking some of his images of Polar Bears hunting and eating seals.........jaw dropping.

Get well soon Ken, hope all is well.
Cheers,
Mark.

Steve Gibby

04-19-2007, 04:43 PM

He wants to take a look at a unit asap. Gibby, hope you don't mind but I gave him your company web address so he may be contacting you. This guy's skill is amazing. I've been looking some of his images of Polar Bears hunting and eating seals.........jaw dropping.

Absolutely...I'd like to talk with him. I've seen his work...great images.

Michael Hastings

04-19-2007, 06:34 PM

Tell Amos Mike from AquaVideo says Hi. Amos is one of the good guys, met him back in '86 through my friends at Fisheye in Grand Cayman - still say Hi every year at DEMA but have never been diving with him - maybe it's time for everyone to hook up somewhere - maybe the RED sea?

Hanging here in Palau with Amos
Cheers,
Mark.

Steve Gibby

04-19-2007, 08:02 PM

maybe it's time for everyone to hook up somewhere - maybe the RED sea?

Great pun! On a trip to the Near East a few years ago I went free diving and snorkeling in the Red Sea. Way beautiful...

What could be more appropriate than diving in the Red Sea with RED One?!

Mark Thorpe

04-19-2007, 10:18 PM

Yeah, way to go. I've also heard that whilst we will be getting the goods in the RED sea there is a planned shoot for other 4K wannabees in the ....... dead sea!
Couldn't resist.

Hope all is well.
Mark.
P.S Any of you guys get RED enabled and flights to Palau and I'll look at getting some kind of deal going with dive shops for preferential rates. But seriously, planning to start doing some expeditions to pay for the filming for stock. Plenty of people out there really into video who'd like to have some kind of training seminar etc. Working on outlines.

Ken Corben

04-21-2007, 09:08 PM

Spent the day Friday with underwater housing designer Mike Hastings from Aquavideo. I must say he is very sharp and has some great design ideas. I will no doubt commission Mike to build my RED housing based on his ideas and proposals and also the fact that he spent the time to review the design parameters with me in person. This is a professional housing solution and not a one size fits all - however, Mike can build whatever your production needs require. The build time for the first housing is 6 weeks from when I can get him a REDONE camera to build around.

The design is also dependent on the results of the initial REDONE lens testing - drum roll please - will it be the Canon 10-22mm with Berger interface ($2K?) or the Zeiss 10 mm prime ($10K?) for professional 4K redcode RAW underwater acquisition?

Questions that came up post NAB include:
1) Can we change frame rates underwater (12 -60 FPS?)
2) Can we change other as yet unannounced in camera adjustments underwater?
3) Is there value to using the EVF underwater (a major housing design change required)?
4) Quick change ideas for battery and red drive (Mike has some clever ideas that reduce camera exposure to the elements).

And other cool stuff that are Mike's proprietary ideas not suited for posting but rather his paying clients.

With a little luck I may have the first 4K underwater footage and tests to share with you all by June?

Johnny Friday

04-21-2007, 11:26 PM

KC,
I almost exclusively use my EVF underwater.....for housing designs that have designs around them that is. LCD not so great in some cases for critcal focus in that not all hold such great resolution---I'm sure I'll get some remarks on that. But bottom line as you know the resolution of the EVF vs LCD's exterior mount is pretty lack luster. I wasn't clear on the red LCD---what's the res on that? Did i hear right that the red EVF is 720p ?

Don't know how you could use it to full extent though without having its own housing....as on the Amphibico F950 housing and Gates cusom built that Howard and Bob have.

Anyway---good avenue to figure. What are you thinking? LCD??

Ken Corben

04-22-2007, 07:31 AM

BAJA J,

I hear you. The tradition is to house the EVF in a small aluminum/pvc tube with some sort of magnification and use it top or side mounted on the camera housing. This is no doubt the only solution for CU and macro work in 4K underwater.

What I am thinking about is when using a wide prime to capture large critters the RED LCD may be ideal given the resolution and brightness plus the camera data is on screen (an underwater first I think?). The focal DOF thru a dome is a known constant of x" to inf. Given this safe margin of DOF it is the framing I am really focused on. Remember when we were being hunted by that pair of Mako sharks in blue water that wouldn't let us get back to the boat ladder? This is what I mean by being able to frame the action with the LCD and know the camera is recording while also maintaining situational awareness. Hard to do with the face mask stuck to an EVF with one eye closed.

Johnny Friday

04-22-2007, 09:13 AM

Agreed!
I do however like the idea of both (assuming $$ is never an issue). For doing Macro work....slide on the EVF to the housing via a rail that clamps down to hold your housed EVF when doing work requiring dead on focus. Then when you know you are working say in open water and you know your dof / subjects and you want to see them framed up so you can keep one eye on the LCD and other on your PPO2 or other predators or maybe just so you don't crack into the reef or your lighting operator----then you slide on your housed LCD...on the same rail.
I like that. Sounds like the dimes are adding up but it's always been like that no? :weight_lift:

Ken Corben

04-22-2007, 11:15 AM

Having both options in the field is ideal and exactly the way you describe it. Cool thing is they are both supplied by the same connector type (I believe?) which makes the switch out very simple - plug and play, plus they both draw power from the camera. The 3 housings, camera - EVF - LCD, all still fit nicely into a pelican case from my design drawings.

I think Mike recommended PVC for the monitor housings based on a clever reason I don't recall. He'll probably have housings for both available with pricing after building the prototypes for me. If the choice is either or then I'd probably suggest the EVF since most shooters have used these over the years.

Anyone going to request/use the following on their RED housings:

1) 720P video out for surface monitoring?
2) Audio in?
3) Mic for underwater ambient sound?

Johnny Friday

04-22-2007, 11:34 AM

Anyone going to request/use the following on their RED housings:

1) 720P video out for surface monitoring?
2) Audio in?
3) Mic for underwater ambient sound?

K,
Definately Audio in, I'm not convinced undewater mic is much better than mic within housing and of any great importance. As for 720p surface monitoring....I don't use it, but I know of folks that do. If looking how to spec out a housing with options.....that's my inuput....only Audio In, but I would likely add video out if it was an affordable option.

Mark Thorpe

04-22-2007, 04:31 PM

Now we're starting to get ever closer to the reality of 4K underwater. Ken, you're a lucky guy being potentially the first to dunk RED. I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of attentive ear twitching going on in anticipation of your results. Keep it going mate.

Glad to see that you're feeling better too.

Regarding audio I would say an external mic would be best seeing as there could be a whole load of noise, clunks, clangs, bangs and shakes going on inside the housing. Its always nice to have an almost inaudible ambient breathing bubbles soundtrack IMHO. Gives a big feel to the whole production. You could also have a canned breathing track and foley it for any really obvious requirements.

Best,
Mark.

Ken Corben

04-22-2007, 05:33 PM

Well I have to be honest - I'd love to be the first one to shoot RED 4K underwater - it would be an honor. Posting the results will be big news for all of us. I certainly will have the first professional housing thanks to the brilliant efforts of Mike Hastings at Aquavideo and to Gibby for letting me make the intitial underwater housing drawings and designs off of #8. The question is timing and subject matter - like Jim said, "Bad red footage is not our fault." Don't think my initial efforts will be subject to this disclaimer. The June cameras are not slated to be fully feature enabled, but hey, I only need a record/stop function at 4K redcode RAW 24p for my intitial underwater tests.

Figure 6 weeks from measuring #8 and the housing will be ready so that is some time in June? My personal camera will not ship until October based on the projected shipping dates. However, in conversations with lower number reservation holders a few possibilities exist.

The trick is always in the choosing:
Subject matter options for me in June include (moving from easy to diffcult) 1) Kelp forests off the channel islands 2) Giant squid in Mexico working with Baja J. 3) Sperm whales in the Azores 4) White sharks in Africa 5) My 3 year old son Kai in the pool with his dog

Of course no one can compete with RED providing "rockstars" like Cameron/Pace or Hydroflex with a RED beta model in May (if it already hasn't happened) to design and test with underwater. I think the difference is that I will share my knowledge, testing and results with the reduser community openly.

I look forward to the amazing results of 4K underwater - very exciting!

Mark Thorpe

04-22-2007, 09:42 PM

All sounds good Ken,
As you I plan to share all of my attempts and failings here in the public forum with the rest of the "Bubble Blowers". Some may laugh at my initial mistakes but I walk tall. I'm stepping up from 3CCD Land and making a massive jump in formats, considerations and work flow. My public airing will help me to learn. I may make a few errors but hopefully those will be pointed out to me. I don't make any grand announcements of being a big noise in our domain, I love what I do and want to hone that into being able to display beautiful stories and 4k images of the marine environment. Sharing what I love with the world to raise awareness and understanding and hopefully instill a desire to protect and conserve.

If that happens then for me, job done.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

04-22-2007, 09:53 PM

I love what I do and want to hone that into being able to display beautiful stories and 4k images of the marine environment. Sharing what I love with the world to raise awareness and understanding and hopefully instill a desire to protect and conserve.

If that happens then for me, job done.

Couldn't have said it better Mark - well done. Keep walking tall and I know I am looking forward to seeing your 4K images.

I don't make any grand announcements of being a big noise in our domain...

Well you should mate, your images are spectacular and your story ideas are brilliant. Always yell from the highest tree you can find or no one will hear you.

Mark Thorpe

04-23-2007, 01:13 AM

Hey cheers Ken,
I appreciate your words, truly.

Hope all is well.
Mark.

Ken Corben

04-23-2007, 02:36 PM

Hey Guys,

I may have an interesting solution for our RED 4K wide angle prime lens woes. I'll let you know if the lead pans out.

Sharky

Mike the beginner

04-24-2007, 01:03 AM

Hey Guys,

I may have an interesting solution for our RED 4K wide angle prime lens woes. I'll let you know if the lead pans out.

Sharky

I hope its not too expensive :blush:

Mike the beginner

David Nardini

04-24-2007, 02:22 PM

Sperm whales in the Azores

how are you getting round the 'legislation' ... now days there are so many regs in place it's hard to get close to whales underwater !

Ken Corben

04-24-2007, 06:18 PM

how are you getting round the 'legislation' ... now days there are so many regs in place it's hard to get close to whales underwater !

An excellent question - IMHO - if a whale does not want to get close to you underwater and check you out then it ain't gonn'a happen. Based on my experiences around the planet with all types of whales it is simple - they're curious or they do not want to be bothered. The whales choose to interact with you or not. I think it's always critical to any production I am producing or working for that the production work closely with the local government agency responsible for enviromental protection and the tourist board to enhance awareness of ecologically sensitive areas and the inhabitants.

My first call/email is always to both of these entities to request formal film permits and ask what I can do to contribute to safe guarding these unique environments. If this includes supplying my footage gratis, paying fees, paying to subsidize local researchers and/or paying all costs for a park ranger to work with us while filming I'm all for it even with our continually shrinking budgets. The majority of the government agencies overseeing the "whale hot spots" work with established filmmakers to achieve the goals of the production while contributing to their protection and habitat conservation.

I have experienced a few, very few, places where I felt it was simply a pay and play deal. Specifically, that my money was going straight into a bureaucratic vaccum. The Azores is not an example of this as they are pretty savvy about protecting their resources but there are a few like this. I have a special permit to film in the Azores that was issued after a do diligence application process based on my credentials and the use of the acquired footage in documentaries that further the understanding of the area and its animals. The Azorean government required a fee for the permit and a copy of the footage to be used for education and tourism - an example of an effective film permit program.

In the case of the REDONE test shooting in the Azores, the footage will be used in one of the HD series specials Steve Gibby and I are producing for HD broadcast as well as a copy supplied to the Azorean government for use in education and tourism.

In my continued pursuit to educate and entertain humans about the wonders of the sea, REDONE has truly opened up a new door on technology.

Sharky

Mark Thorpe

04-25-2007, 04:52 PM

All sounds good Ken, good luck with it all. I'm banging around in the final throes of the busy season here in Palau. Getting geared up for the trip to Lembeh and then I guess it will be getting the office ready for the landing of RED #954. I'm in the process of making final decisions on lenses too. The RED Prime set is looking to be a good option later down the line depending on initial tests etc. With the work put in to RED though I'm pretty sure it will be a no brainer.

Mind you, this talk of planning for the future took a bit of a ding the other day. Currently in Palau we have one very big boat which normally serves as a liveaboard. It had been chartered for the past 3 weeks by one of the biggest production entities on the Planet. They are making some deep Ocean stuff split between here, Yap and Chuuk (Truk) Lagoon. They have some of the biggest names in the underwater camera operator world, from the U.S, the U.K and Germany, shooting the main feature on F900's 1080p @ 24P. However they also have a full on support crew of around 30 people, seven of which are B roll underwater camera guys. These people are shooting with the exact same HDV unit that I film with every day, including the SWP44.

However, and this is the killer. The producer of the show is also on the boat. As we always know, producers are continually busting balls to keep costs down. Well in the wisdom to cut costs down the B roll guys have been instructed to program their HDV units to shoot in the DV Format!!! The producers didn't want to use the cameras as decks to down convert and feed the imagery into the computers and also didn't go the extra $2k or so to buy the HDV deck for that operation. In the past three weeks the entity has used submersibles, helicopters and also flown in the NewtSuit for an 800fsw dive. They have contracted the world's creme de la creme of underwater camera operators, chartered a very expensive boat .............. and shot complete B roll in DV. Go figure.

I will personally use this project scenario when in the future, and its bound to happen, producers or project related people knock me back with the age old line, "ahhhhh, sorry but we're filming solely on true, uncompressed HD for this one". I'm just wondering too if people will then, post RED, come up with the excuse of the camera being above the quality requirement for their project? You know, like the brain surgeon getting knocked back from the GP vacancy due to their being 'over qualified'!

I have purposely avoided dropping names to protect the production entity and individuals involved.

Cheers from a very puzzled CamDiver,
Mark.

Ken Corben

04-25-2007, 05:33 PM

Thanks for the post Mark - sounds like a very cool program/series we will all enjoy. It's funny to think of the big bucks being spent to shoot in 1080p as a master with the pending release of RED, no?

I think a letter and HD-DVD demo following the release of RED fed exed to Alistair Fathergill at the BBC NAT History unit is in order as soon as doable signed by you, me and the rest of us first RED U/W shooters pointing out the folly in 1080p for the future and of course our availabilities and rates - hehe

And I have always said, who am I to argue with the wisdom of producers. I recall shooting for Nat Geo on a big series where the discussion was 16:9 vs 4:3 in SD (a few years back). I pushed for 16:9 since we were descending into an active volcano for amazing shots of a scientist collecting samples - great television. The producers chose 4:3 not seeing any value in my suggestion.

Well, the friggin' volcano erupted while we were ascending the glacial cap to the rim - there I was filming an active eruption at the mouth of a volcano. The first time to do so and survive it I believe. Later that night I received a call from a big time Discovery Channel producer, "Hey Ken, I hear you got the shot I really need. (beat) WHAT THE F#*K do you mean it's in 4:3 SD whose dumb a** idea was that."

I rest my case.

Mark Thorpe

04-25-2007, 05:53 PM

LOL, I hear ya.

I guess the boys on the boat are just grinning for the paycheck!! "SD, boss? na prablem Bwana, you know best boss, yes sah"

I think a letter and HD-DVD demo following the release of RED fed exed to Alistair Fathergill at the BBC NAT History unit is in order as soon as doable signed by you, me and the rest of us first RED U/W shooters pointing out the folly in 1080p for the future and of course our availabilities and rates - hehe

Why stop there? A wise shootin' sage recently told me to proclaim my presence from the top of the tallest trees in a loud and proud announcement. I guess, :weight_lift: , strength in numbers would underline that call.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

04-25-2007, 06:24 PM

I will personally use this project scenario when in the future, and its bound to happen, producers or project related people knock me back with the age old line, "ahhhhh, sorry but we're filming solely on true, uncompressed HD for this one". I'm just wondering too if people will then, post RED, come up with the excuse of the camera being above the quality requirement for their project? You know, like the brain surgeon getting knocked back from the GP vacancy due to their being 'over qualified'! Mark.

Ahh, the inevitable backlash to technological advancement. Me thinks the answer is MONEY! We can deliver superior quality images at a competitive rate thanks to RED. Show the producers the work flow and results, explain it like they're 6-years old, then show them the costs.
The next words you should hear are, "you're hired!"

Mark Thorpe

04-25-2007, 07:16 PM

How true that sounds. I guess I can shoot some but I've never been one for the networking or marketing side of things. Guess thats gonna have to change soon eh?

This learning curve starts to require crampons!!

Cheers,
Mark

Ken Corben

04-26-2007, 07:31 PM

And what does that conversation sound like?

Yes, your master footage is acquired in 4K that you can view at the end of the day (on your intel macbook pro). The footage is then downrezzed and delivered to you on redundant (two) LaCie 320 GB HDD ($170 each) in 1080/24p or 1080/50 or 60i (accomplished by laptop and Apple prores in the field). I recommend you send one drive out for tape back up on HDCAM SR 10 bit 4:4:4 and the other drive is available for immediate digital back up to HDD as well as plug and play for your editor on FCP 6.

The original 4K red drive master will be "vaulted" for 30 days pending the adequate back up of your digital data as recommended.

All specifications subject to change of course.

Mark Thorpe

04-26-2007, 11:34 PM

How many times will that be said in the next year or so?

Wise words Ken.

Steve Gibby

04-27-2007, 04:30 PM

Sharky has it dialed in well...

Bring on da cameras and let's hit the water!

I went surfing yesterday for a few hours in beautiful 9' face waves. I've been in, on, and by the ocean for my entire life (I'm 58). The most addictive substance on the face of the earth is salt water! I've been a happy salt water addict for almost six decades now - and I never plan to enter rehab for it!

One amazing fact about ocean water is that it tests out as being almost identical to the amneotic fluid that each of us live in for nine months as we develop as a fetus. We essentially develop inside our mothers in ocean water...and some of us then feel deeply connected to ocean water for our entire lives...

I wouldn't have it any other way...

Michael Hastings

04-28-2007, 07:48 AM

Bring on da cameras! Any word yet on when for yours?

Re all the rest: I second that emocean..

Sharky has it dialed in well...

Bring on da cameras and let's hit the water!

I've been a happy salt water addict for almost six decades now - and I never plan to enter rehab for it!

...

Steve Gibby

04-28-2007, 08:18 AM

Mike the beginner

04-28-2007, 12:59 PM

No definite word on a delivery date. We're on hold for the board upgrade that RED posted news of a few days ago. I'm sure sometime soon they'll announce the revised delivery schedule. I'm stoked to get the board upgrade before the camera ships. That saves the complications of having to do an upgrade a few months later. Right after I get #8 me and Sharky will get with you for the new housing measurements.

I like that!: "I second that emocean"

Man are you guys all off your heads or what! Now remember when you are doing that housing to keep things simple, workable and keep the costs down.

Are we going with the canon lens or what? Or do we have an alternative solution???. Gibby i know these bubble blowing guys are nuts so dont go getting any ideas now about diving with them.

We need you ( i need you) to stay alive otherwise my learning curve could go into reverse:devil:

Mike the beginner

Ken Corben

04-28-2007, 05:57 PM

Man are you guys all off your heads or what! Now remember when you are doing that housing to keep things simple, workable and keep the costs down.

KIIS is critical but, well costs are what they are for design, engineering and actual build costs, however, with an early reservation holder also being a Master underwater housing designer/builder sorta' helps. Must haves in discussions with Mike, Gibby and Baja Johnny are RED LCD and EVF external housings (bling!), aluminum construction (PVC is a less expensive option to be offered), dome port, controls for lens and camera and of course quick change capability for battery and reddrives.

Are we going with the canon lens or what? Or do we have an alternative solution???.

Well we know the Zeiss 10 or 12mm prime lenses work $$$$$. The pending tests with Berger and Canon 10-22 is the big question for cost effectiveness for most of the underwater guys $$$$. Other options to be tested include:
http://rplens.com/
Nikon 8mm fisheye (180) F 2.8 translates to a 12mm / with gears -$2800.
Or a 15mm F3.5 Nikon - translates to about 22.5mm / with gears - $1425.
Or a Canon 14mm"L" F2.8 translates to a 21mm / with gears $1750.
Peter Sensor and company that make these cine-style conversions have graciously offered the lenses for testing on Gibby's #8 in LA. The lenses come in the Nikon or Canon mount for use with the RED adaptor. An intriguing option given price point.

Gibby i know these bubble blowing guys are nuts so dont go getting any ideas now about diving with them. We need you ( i need you) to stay alive otherwise my learning curve could go into reverse

Too late my Scottish friend, Gibby and his lovely and talented wife Pam are already signed up to finalize their advanced scuba certifications with yours truly (maybe in Palau with Camdiver :-). Pam's "dream" wish list includes filming white sharks and I plan to show her this truly amazing creature up close and personal. Of course, common sense, Gibby and Pam will remain inside the cage. Me thinks that Gibby will not be far behind me in our pending underwater adventures in 4K - kinda' like a fish takes to water. No worries we'll have "keyman" insurance in force.

Mike the beginner

04-30-2007, 02:08 AM

KIIS is critical but, well costs are what they are for design, engineering and actual build costs, however, with an early reservation holder also being a Master underwater housing designer/builder sorta' helps. Must haves in discussions with Mike, Gibby and Baja Johnny are RED LCD and EVF external housings (bling!), aluminum construction (PVC is a less expensive option to be offered), dome port, controls for lens and camera and of course quick change capability for battery and reddrives..

How would that work (roughly) are we talking about a seperate housing that connects on to the camera housing? trying to visualize?

.[/QUOTE]

Well we know the Zeiss 10 or 12mm prime lenses work $$$$$. The pending tests with Berger and Canon 10-22 is the big question for cost effectiveness for most of the underwater guys $$$$. Other options to be tested include:
http://rplens.com/
Nikon 8mm fisheye (180) F 2.8 translates to a 12mm / with gears -$2800.
Or a 15mm F3.5 Nikon - translates to about 22.5mm / with gears - $1425.
Or a Canon 14mm"L" F2.8 translates to a 21mm / with gears $1750.
Peter Sensor and company that make these cine-style conversions have graciously offered the lenses for testing on Gibby's #8 in LA. The lenses come in the Nikon or Canon mount for use with the RED adaptor. An intriguing option given price point..[/QUOTE]

I am hoping for the canon 10mm-22mm. Just wonder about the super grip and if it could be used underwater etc. The whole issue of mount changing could er....change things?

.[/QUOTE] Too late my Scottish friend, Gibby and his lovely and talented wife Pam are already signed up to finalize their advanced scuba certifications with yours truly (maybe in Palau with Camdiver :-). Pam's "dream" wish list includes filming white sharks and I plan to show her this truly amazing creature up close and personal. Of course, common sense, Gibby and Pam will remain inside the cage. Me thinks that Gibby will not be far behind me in our pending underwater adventures in 4K - kinda' like a fish takes to water. No worries we'll have "keyman" insurance in force.[/QUOTE]

I knew it! just knew it! Bloody hell and the two of them are just as mad!!!

"Keyman" imsurance oh thats ok then...YOU HAVE HIM CLONED:biggrin:

Mike the beginner

Mark Thorpe

04-30-2007, 04:54 AM

Ken Corben

04-30-2007, 11:10 PM

How would that work (roughly) are we talking about a seperate housing that connects on to the camera housing? trying to visualize?

Think of a miniature housing for the red monitor or red EVF that slides on and off the cylindrical housing with a water proof detachable connector (see photos).

I knew it! just knew it! Bloody hell and the two of them are just as mad!!! "Keyman" insurance oh thats ok then...YOU HAVE HIM CLONED:biggrin:

They broke the mold on Gibby and cloning is illegal under our current political regime here in the US.

On a serious note I'm gonna be a bit absent for a while. I'm under NDA at the mo so can't say too much but I'm in the process of introducing underwater imagery into a different, and very hip, new market. All I can say now is it's bold, it combines two massive entertainment genres and in this particular case has already, even before we commence, in excess of 10,000 people waiting for the finished item. I will be able to reveal more in about three weeks.......Mum's the word.

GO MARK! Keep us posted on the new media developments sounds like fun. Hope you won't miss to much in your 6 week hiatus like the first underwater RED footage - hehehe (unlikely in reality).

Steve Gibby

04-30-2007, 11:36 PM

Too late my Scottish friend, Gibby and his lovely and talented wife Pam are already signed up to finalize their advanced scuba certifications with yours truly (maybe in Palau with Camdiver :-). Pam's "dream" wish list includes filming white sharks and I plan to show her this truly amazing creature up close and personal. Of course, common sense, Gibby and Pam will remain inside the cage. Me thinks that Gibby will not be far behind me in our pending underwater adventures in 4K - kinda' like a fish takes to water. No worries we'll have "keyman" insurance in force.

Oh yeah…we actually have gills behind our ears dude! I’ve been in, on, and by the ocean my whole life, so I’m ashamed to say that I never got scuba certified. Too many good surfing days I guess. I’ve always been around sharks and other marine life a lot. There have probably been a lot of them around me I didn’t know about too! I won’t be shooting outside the cage with great whites like wildman Sharky – I hear he always ties fresh chuck steaks on the ends of his fins to make things more interesting! Pam’s a wild woman though – I’ll have to watch her closely to make sure she stays in the cage. She’ll want to latch onto whiteys dorsal and cruise around! A few years ago for our wedding anniversary in Costa Rica, we both celebrated with a 300’ bungee jump from a bridge in the jungle. Pam begged to go first, and I let her (had to make sure it was safe!). The I went – I had to or I’d never hear the end of it. Then she immediately begged to go again! Total wild woman...and I love it!

The Gibby/Sharky adventures will be epic!! It would definitely be cool to go to Palau. Stay tuned…

They broke the mold on Gibby and cloning is illegal under our current political regime here in the US. )

Yup…I’m a prototype! There’s an international law against making any more of me. Something about too many red-eyed (no pun intended!) surfers in the world already. I have left a lot of DNA on streets when skateboarding through the years though, and some of it may still be viable specimens. If I’m cloned Pam will freak out…she already has a hard time dealing with the one of me…

David Groundwater

05-01-2007, 03:11 AM

Mark Thorpe

05-01-2007, 04:32 AM

hi everyone,

re: external monitor housing - would it not be easier (and more streamlined) to put the red lcd monitor in the back of an aquavideo housing which has a clear back? you could have a simple curved hood projecting from the back of the housing for shade.

also, with your arms outstretched, the lcd would be directly infront of you.

whadya reckon?

cheers,

david

That would be all well and good until you have to jam the housing down for a low angle shot! I hate trying to squeeze myself under rocks to get at the same level with viewfinders etc. A freely accessible external monitor on a ball jointed (or similar) base offers so much more flexibility.

Cheers,
Mark.

David Groundwater

05-01-2007, 06:29 AM

hey mark,

agreed - i guess i'm thinking of bluewater use.

cheers,

david

Michael Hastings

05-01-2007, 08:52 AM

About $3800 will get you housing setup for RED with 10-22mm Canon EF-S with iris and focus controls for Birger Canon EF mount and 6" acrylic dome, zoom (depending on gearing required may be a a couple hundred extra more for geared zoom, but we would at least give you a simple, "not so slick but works" friction control to change zoom). Clear backplate with view of RED LCD inside housing. 3 or 4 Miscellaneous camera controls (I don't even know what is available on the camera.) Standard Depth rating 175-200ft.

Add $1000 - $1500 for external housing for RED LCD.

Add $499 for 8" Acrylic dome.
Add $600-1K for 6" glass dome.
Add $1300 to $2K for 8" glass dome.

Add $250 - $900 for deeper rated front plate (depending on thicker Acrylic or aluminum)

Add $1800 for Aluminum Cylinder body instead of PVC. This is more for the 250 ft+ crowd - PVC is probably fine for greater depths but if you know you are going to push it, the added peace of mind of Aluminum for those guys is probably worth it.

More Rectangular shaped aluminum housing can be done but will add $3K to $10K depending on configuration and demand - and I am not sure you will gain much.

Note: domes are not normally full domes. They are slices, but the diameter is given as if full dome so you can calculate virtual image focus distances. Infinity is at 3 times the Radius of the dome so for 6" dome infinity is at 9" in front of dome and for 8" dome infinity is 12" in front. (The virtual image for closer subjects is progressively closer - i.e. 3 ft real equals virtual image at 7 inches in front of a 6" dome). This has to be handled either through 1) close focus lenses (most of the modern consumer and prosumer video cameras can do this automatically because they can combine movement of the zoom elements with the focus elements to achieve macro focus throughout a portion of the zoom range) or 2) through use of a closeup lens, so you will want a +3 or +4 closeup filter or better an achromat diopter (which is a closeup lens that is corrected for a flatter focus field). A dome is just a negative diopter so it takes a corresponding positive diopter to compensate. Six inch dome is about a negative 4 diopter. 3) There is a possibility that focus could be corrected via a shim behind the lens mount (this is what was often done in the days of c-mount 16mm underwater systems) but I have to talk to some of the lens gurus about the feasibility of that.

Note: it may make more sense to have a custom battery pack for the camera so that it fits in the housing better (i.e. a long thin pack), but they would likely be on the order of $200 each. If budget is tight I am sure it wouldn't be hard to make them work as your main RED battery - won't be quite as slick as a V-mount but it would work.

Michael Hastings

05-01-2007, 08:55 AM

Basically your first/cheapest option would be to do as dmig suggested and put the monitor inside the housing and view through the clear backplate. The external monitor case adds $1000 to $1500 so it is a matter of price vs. flexibility. Monitor case could be added later. Will probably use a ball arm for the mount since we have them already for the lights.

I am going to post a copy of the rough pricing I mentioned in post #144 so it isn't so hard to find.

From Dmig:
re: external monitor housing - would it not be easier (and more streamlined) to put the red lcd monitor in the back of an aquavideo housing which has a clear back? you could have a simple curved hood projecting from the back of the housing for shade.

also, with your arms outstretched, the lcd would be directly infront of you.

From Camdiver:

That would be all well and good until you have to jam the housing down for a low angle shot! I hate trying to squeeze myself under rocks to get at the same level with viewfinders etc. A freely accessible external monitor on a ball jointed (or similar) base offers so much more flexibility.

Cheers,
Mark.

Mike the beginner

05-02-2007, 08:56 AM

Mark Thorpe

05-03-2007, 09:46 PM

All is going well. Out busy shooting new stuff daily and focusing on the edit for 'the project at hand'. Mainly just ingesting more footage to the hard drives, same old boring kinda stuff. All essential though.

Will be making decisions for the lenses this week. Need to get plans nailed and get moving forward. Before we know it we'll all be proud parents of screaming little RED things, best to have the nursery loaded with the 'toys' from the start eh?

From yesterday:
http://www.4koceanstock.com/Images/Big-Drop-Off-anemones.jpg

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

05-05-2007, 04:55 PM

Mark,

Your compostion and framing are awesome in that reef photo, nice eye - is that an ambient light frame grab of the Z-1 or a still from the Z-1?

Will be making decisions for the lenses this week. Need to get plans nailed and get moving forward. Before we know it we'll all be proud parents of screaming little RED things, best to have the nursery loaded with the 'toys' from the start eh?

Do you know a secret you're not telling? Lens selection for the underwater RED camera system is still the $64K question, no?

Mark Thorpe

05-06-2007, 05:04 AM

Thanks Ken,
Nice to get positive feedback on imagery from a fellow bubble blower. It's a still taken from Z1 footage on Big Drop Off, Palau, ambient light using cyan (blue water) filter.

Regarding lenses I'm potentially looking to go with the Tamron 90mm and start archives on the macro side of things. As and when positive feedback for the wider lenses come in 'from the field' I'll make my decisions. I would imagine that yours and Gibby's trials are gonna potentially pave the way for what works and what doesn't before many of us other bubblers even get our cameras in our hands.

Cheers,
Mark.
PM'd you re: the other stuff.

Johnny Friday

05-10-2007, 08:26 AM

....just a thought on the EVF and LCD.....I recall some text floating around about a wet plug connection for an EVD and LCD...much like hooking up the Gates EM 43 monitor.

However as was pointed out to me by someone recently....(and this is 2nd hand as I'm not aware)...BUT, the RED will use a different connection---I think a DVI connector or something at least quite different than the standard wet plug SD/HD connectors. So....guess that's an ENTIRELY NEW option to figure out for the EVF & LCD connections on the HOUSED STYLE view finder or monitor options.

I'm not entirely fond of a housed LCD since you have many factors that will affect the viewer to get a critical look at what they are shooting while in sunlit conditions etc...

Something to consider for the brains that are already working out there. I'm sure this is OLD news however.

Johnny

Michael Hastings

05-10-2007, 11:52 AM

Wet plug connectors are readily available for pretty much any number of pins you need, it just gets more expensive. It is probably more practical to make a solid connection since you don't really need to be plugging and unplugging it. My basic idea was just to make housing for the LCD semi permanently attached (i.e. you need a wrench to remove the cable from the housing) which saves $500 - $600 or more at the retail level for a 20 pin connector. These multipin Viewfinder cables are pretty standard on broadcast cameras so we've dealt with it all of the different ways before. Anyway, the cable would just be a version of the regular cable which would plug into the LCD inside the LCD waterproof case. LCD is removable for regular use.

....just a thought on the EVF and LCD.....I recall some text floating around about a wet plug connection for an EVD and LCD...much like hooking up the Gates EM 43 monitor.

However as was pointed out to me by someone recently....(and this is 2nd hand as I'm not aware)...BUT, the RED will use a different connection---I think a DVI connector or something at least quite different than the standard wet plug SD/HD connectors. So....guess that's an ENTIRELY NEW option to figure out for the EVF & LCD connections on the HOUSED STYLE view finder or monitor options.

I'm not entirely fond of a housed LCD since you have many factors that will affect the viewer to get a critical look at what they are shooting while in sunlit conditions etc...

Something to consider for the brains that are already working out there. I'm sure this is OLD news however.

Johnny

Mark Thorpe

05-10-2007, 03:21 PM

Big shout going out to Ken 'sharkguy' Corben,
Hanging here in Palau with DJ Roller. Him and his crew are renting some lighting units and achromatic diopters from me. Had a few beers with him last night and he mentioned he's not seen you in a while and that you were present at his wedding. Big hi there big fella.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

05-10-2007, 04:31 PM

Mark,

Thanks for passing on the message from DJ - wow do we go back in history. DJ is one of the most talented underwater DP's in the business. He created a look for my Hammerhead Shark Week Special on digital betacam, ambient light at 30+ meters on Alcyon seamount Cocos Island that was ahead of its time.

DJ and I were among the first DP's to test one of the only two working prototypes of Sony's first HDCAM (97?). In fact I think we were the first to shoot HDCAM underwater. Funny thing is during the end of the testing I was shooting DJ underwater on a scooter in a cave entrance when I noticed smoke filling up the housing thru the viewfinder. I calmly finished the take and passed the camera to DJ. I'll never forget the look on his face after he peered thru the viewfinder. Keep in mind there was a long and impressive list of DP's waiting their turn to play with this camera after us. Later on the phone with Sony Execs, "Well, uh, there seems to be a cooling problem with the camera..."

Turns out it was a cooling fan motor that burned up and the first released cameras came with a new and improved cooling fan - thanks to us?

Ask DJ about testing an underwater 12K in the parking lot of some flea bag hotel in the Florida panhandle and the Indian Manager screaming at him, "Who will pay for the electricity?" and DJ calmly responding, "It's a new technology - uses very little electricity" - while lighting half of downtown Nowhere, Florida:tongue:

Mark Thorpe

05-10-2007, 06:29 PM

Great stories there mate,
I reckon some of the stories I've heard from some of the guys in this game would make a fantastic lighthearted book. A great read to take on a liveaboard somewhere eh? I have also had a few crazy times in my career to date, all great stuff.

I'll pass on your best wishes to DJ, they're out of here on the 15th but stop diving on the 13th. Here on a Recce for a possible IMAX 3D gig. Mate, we're gonna have to nail that bait ball before it gets too well known!

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

05-14-2007, 12:20 PM

I have a notion that some of the greats like Howard Hall, Vince Pace and DJ Roller will no doubt be producing some new and more great 3-D films for large format release. I'm always first in line as a paying audience member.

IMHO, it is the next generation 3-D technology that will enable never before seen 3-D underwater images due to the previous physical and mechanical restraints of the technlogy. But, whether it's Pace's cool underwater 3-D rig based on dual stream (stereo camera) HDCAM SR or Howard's tried and true 15perf 70mm "mini-sub" camera it always comes down to their masterful story telling that takes the audience's breath away.

My vision for the very near future, which I'm sure I share with Cameron/Pace and others, is a RED based underwater 3-D rig. Tapeless stereo acquisition underwater with a brilliant work flow - kudos to Jim and the Redteam for this quantum leap in technology that will translate into amazing underwater 3-D cinema experiences for audiences maybe as early as Summer '09.

Andrew M.

05-15-2007, 09:02 AM

I posted this test in Lenses section.
Looks like something acceptable for 4K wide angle.
At f/5.6 almost no CA

fathom

05-17-2007, 09:41 AM

I have decided to break silence and risk being shouted down but i had a small idea. At the moment the route currently seems to be to get a 35mm lens behind a dome. This is of course fine but what about the idea of using an actual underwater lens. You can still buy lenses for the Nikonos RS and it should not be too difficult to machine the mount and the servo controller for focus. Maybe they wouldn't be that good quality but i presume they were made very well originally and you get an image hitting the sensor that has not had to go through glass air then more glass. What do people think about this? OK so it might be a worry having a potential leak so close to the camera but a leak is dodgy wherever it occurs.

Michael Hastings

05-17-2007, 10:43 AM

At the moment the route currently seems to be to get a 35mm lens behind a dome. This is of course fine but what about the idea of using an actual underwater lens. You can still buy lenses for the Nikonos RS and it should not be too difficult to machine the mount and the servo controller for focus. Maybe they wouldn't be that good quality but i presume they were made very well originally and you get an image hitting the sensor that has not had to go through glass air then more glass. What do people think about this? OK so it might be a worry having a potential leak so close to the camera but a leak is dodgy wherever it occurs.

Fathom:

I actually proposed this very early in this thread. It would probably be necessary (for flange distance/backfocus reasons) to replace the entire front of the RED camera with the front plate of the housing with a Nikonos receptacle and then you could use the Nikonos 15 (which is really a 20 behind a dome) or you could use other Nikons using the Nikonos Aqualens system which allows you to mount regular nikons on the nikonos. Presumably the same type of thing could be done with the RS lenses.

That approach is not out of the question, but the big problem is that the Nikonos lenses are not really that wide on the S35 sensor of the RED which has a 1.6x factor when comparing it to the same lens on a 35mm SLR full frame sensor or film which is 36mm x 24mm. This is the reason we are all considering the 10-22 Canon because the 10 mm would be like a 16mm on 35 SLR.

The Nikonos 15 (which again is really a 20) would have the same angle of view as a 32mm on a full frame SLR and even a true 15 mm would be only equivalent to a 24 mm - so not that wide.

Re: the Nikonos 15 - some history - when it came out in the sixties underwater housings and particularly dome ports weren't that common so the Nikonos 15 which is just a 20mm nikon lens with a glass dome was marked 15mm to show its "relative" focal length to lenses behind flat ports. I don't know if the RS lenses went back to Real focal lengths but it still doesn't get around that they wouldn't be as wide on the RED.

BTW Those "underwater" lenses are primarily normal lenses with a built-in dome (and they also are made so their focus compensates for the refocusing of a dome.) It also points out the fact that domes, while not perfect, are one of the most practical solutions for very high quality underwater work

The other issue is that the mount is fairly small so with this big of a camera/underwater case you'd have to reinforce it or worry about banging it hard enough to knock it off or at least cause a leak.

I have decided to break silence and risk being shouted down but i had a small idea.

PS don't worry about "breaking silence" or whatever. At least on this thread we are pretty much about discussion and sharing of knowledge, and leaving the shouting/flaming, etc. to other threads/forums. So as far as I'm concerned, chime in anytime.

Ken Corben

05-17-2007, 04:11 PM

PS don't worry about "breaking silence" or whatever. At least on this thread we are pretty much about discussion and sharing of knowledge, and leaving the shouting/flaming, etc. to other threads/forums. So as far as I'm concerned, chime in anytime.

Well said Mike.

Other than the FOV issue I wish the Nikonos 15 was a solution since I own two of them but I would feel a bit sceptical about the bayonet mount o-ring since underwater cinemtography is 1% LUCK AND 99% O-RING.

I think that Mike's proposed RED housing systems from earlier posts incorporate the best of K.I.S.S. When the lens questions for us underwater dudes are answered by the testing of Gibby's #8 led by Evin Grant, Mike will have the data to pull the trigger and start machining.

Until then it's still $10K a week for the U/W cinealta rental...OUCH!

Mark Thorpe

05-18-2007, 12:24 AM

Wow, a week has passed since my last visit. Another week closer to the REDvolution my friends.

Been tied up with a short music video type edit. A group in the UK wanted to have a string out of underwater images to accompany their latest release, aptly titled 'Oceanic'. The group, Above & Beyond present Tranquility Base are also avid divers and have actually been to Palau, where I currently reside, albeit before my time. Well in case any of you are interested you can check out the edit:

www.4koceanstock.com/blog.html

Click the Manta Ray image underneath the 'technocean' entry. The file is an mp4 format weighing in at 29MB.

Cheers,
Mark.

Michael Hastings

05-18-2007, 10:52 AM

I hate going to your blog - makes me very jealous.

Nice stuff Mark, keep it up.

www.4koceanstock.com/blog.html

Click the Manta Ray image underneath the 'technocean' entry. The file is an mp4 format weighing in at 29MB.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

05-18-2007, 06:46 PM

Anyone seen this trailer for National Geographic's 3-D live action and CGI epic prehistoric underwater tale yet?

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/giantscreenfilms/sea-monsters-a-prehistoric-adventure.html

It will be interesting to see the film in 3D IMAX and RealD 3D to compare the viewing experience. It is an exciting time to be a pending RED owner and underwater filmmaker. Hell, I'd be stoked to have a pair of limit enabled capable RED cameras that shoots 24p @ 180 degree shutter in redcode RAW for my current projects.

Sharky

Mark Thorpe

05-19-2007, 06:58 PM

AquaVideoRed206 - I hate going to your blog - makes me very jealous.

Hahaha, gotta love it. Getting ready for the Indo adventure so will be absent for some time. Mind you, I'll be posting some pretty wild critter info when I get back.

Soon Ken, soon......

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

05-22-2007, 12:46 AM

Here ya go Mike, something else to make you jealous.....

OK, so they are captive but better that than ending up as cat chow as they were originally intended. These dolphins were bought out / rescued from a performing show in Japan by one of the top directors of Sony. With two invalid sons he believes in the healing abilities Dolphins have on the mind as opposed to the limbs. Floating in the Ocean offers the kids the chance to feel as any normal person would in the watery medium, lets face it none of us are that graceful underwater irrespective as to how good a swimmer we may think we are.

This is what I was up to yesterday, meeting and filming eight Pacific Bottlenose Dolphins at the Dolphins Pacific facility here in Palau......all good stuff.

http://www.4koceanstock.com/Images/Dolphin-Day.jpg

Cheers,
Mark.

Michael Hastings

05-22-2007, 08:23 AM

Stop, I'm stuck here in front of a computer. LOL

Ken Corben

05-22-2007, 02:51 PM

Mark,

Again with that friggin' great photo composition - I''d say it was luck but you keep doing it. Meanwhile us drones are plugging away in development hell slogging out budgets. Two budgets really, one for RED camera based production the second for cinealta. An eye opening read even if your not an actuary.

Mark Thorpe

05-22-2007, 08:03 PM

Hey Ken,
C'mon my man. I've seen your show reel! Your stuff is awesome. Loving what one does for a job shows in ones work I reckon. Mind you I'm actually looking to move back to 'civilization' myself once RED lands! Its a great ideal to think of living in a place like Palau and filming all the stuff on a daily basis but I need to be closer to the meetings, networking possibilities and still have a lot to learn on all the admin side of this game. Such is life.

Right, just ripping out the foam on a couple new Pelicans and getting ready for the off.

Have a good one,
Mark.

Ken Corben

05-24-2007, 08:04 PM

Hey Ken,
C'mon my man. I've seen your show reel! Your stuff is awesome. Loving what one does for a job shows in ones work I reckon.

Mark,

Thank you for the compliment - coming from another underwater shooter means a great deal. I must say there is nothing I can compare an eye to eye underwater encounter with...EXCEPT seeing an audience's reaction to the footage in a 3D screening.:)

Travel well and we look forward to seeing the results of your efforts.

Sharky

Mark Thorpe

05-24-2007, 08:40 PM

......EXCEPT seeing an audience's reaction to the footage in a 3D screening. We're at the forefront of being able to do this with RED. Real opportunities only come along once or twice in a lifetime. Once recognized they should be taken and exploited to their fullest. The bait ball is waiting as are a myriad of other incredible encounter possibilities.

Our time is now.

Looking forward to the trip as every second passes. Almost there. Depending on the sketchy Internet access in deepest darkest Indonesia depends as to whether or not I'll be able to get word back to you guys. If not, and unless you hear contrary on the International news, I'll be back sometime mid July. I'll drop by in the coming few days before the off to wish everyone the best for their deliveries.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Lucky sod, with the Hammerheads that is. I've seen them from the surface but never underwater......15 years and they still evade me. Soon.

mike luzansky

05-25-2007, 03:12 AM

Hi, this is Mike Luzansky with H2O Photo Pros (www.h2ophotopros.com). Just wanted to introduce myself. Mark (camDiver) referred me to the group. Im extremely excited to get this bad boy underwater. We will be following very close with the development of the Gates Housing for the RED camera, so I hope to be a very active participant in the forums.

If you ever have any questions during the wait for an underwater housing, don't hesitate to email or call us at anytime.

See you all in the water!

Mike Luzansky
H2O Photo Pros
Underwater Photo & Video
www.h2ophotopros.com

Todd Avery

05-25-2007, 01:53 PM

Can anybody here give me some advice on how to begin to get involved with underwater shooting?

I certainly can't afford a RED, not to mention what a housing would cost for the thing. I DO have a little Canon A1, I DO dive. I'm just a young lad without much money and a lot of desire

(Also my first post, I've been dreaming about RED since I first heard about)

Mark Thorpe

05-25-2007, 04:24 PM

Hey Mike,
Glad to see you made it, welcome. We're all just about chomping at the bit here to get going with RED. All housing options are discussed here to find the best option. Things are very cool at the moment, we're on that big dipper and the coaches are just reaching the apex of the first drop. Pretty soon we'll have the rush of excitement as the ride starts, as we swoop and loop through this ride we're all lining up for. Gotta love it.

Todd - Checked out your web site. Saying you are "just a young lad without much money and a lot of desire" doesn't come across as so from your site. You may also wanna spell check "Portraits" on the Nav Bar of your site. www.wetpixel.com which is an online forum, amongst other features, is maybe a good place to start to learn more about underwater filming etc. The video sections have great moderators and a lot of knowledge from the other members is always forthcoming. You may even stumble across a few familiar names there too!!

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

05-25-2007, 04:28 PM

OK guys,
One last Image............

http://www.4koceanstock.com/Images/Decorator.jpg

Tell me what you see......this is gonna blow you away!

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

05-27-2007, 06:38 PM

Well Guys,
I'm outta here. Last minute stuff now and then I'll be wallowing in some of the most glorious 'Muck Diving' on the planet. Hoping to find some of the more obscure and weird life forms other than this little guy I rently found in Palau.

www.4koceanstock.com/VidClips/Decorator.mp4

This a decorator crab, so called because they use materials from their surroundings to drape over themselves to blend in. This guy lived close to a real trashy area so had used plastics, old string fibres, Betel nut and also discarded cigarette ends!! Amazing little guy.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S I know this scene is a bit strange with lighting. This is a small part of the stock I have on this guy and will be placing the best stuff in a short film I'll be putting together for this trip.

Mark Thorpe

07-13-2007, 08:56 PM

Hey Guys,
Just got back in this morning, literally a few hours ago.....see, this RED thing has got me, trapped me, can't leave it alone....suffocating!!

Looking forward to catching up with everything.
Mark.

One of my trip buddies!

Mark Thorpe

07-19-2007, 03:58 PM

Wow,
All the fish have left the aquarium ............

Ken Corben

07-27-2007, 10:02 AM

Wow,
All the fish have left the aquarium ............

No, just crazy busy on this end with LART and everything else. Nice new avatar - neon goby from INDO? How about a trip synopsis?

Michael Hastings

07-27-2007, 10:19 AM

Wow,
All the fish have left the aquarium ............

fish did leave the aquarium...

the whole board was pretty dead for quite awhile while you were gone, I think everybody got the wind out of their sails by the engineering delay - now that there is a schedule again things are pretty busy on the board again too. So we might as well get the bubble blowers started up on this thread again.

Mark: I did a reply to the post over on that other thread, and since I think it is a good refresher of the basic issues I am going to copy it over here. BTW thanks for the nice comments.

Michael Hastings

07-27-2007, 10:22 AM

Could one of ther moderators take this to the Underwater Group location?

Mark:

Copied from other thread:

I'm not impressed with the usability of it [the manual housing] where Amphibico and Light and Motion has more flexability, true its electronic so prone to more servicing and problems but i found gates to be a little to slow for my needs.

Also theres seems to be talk of Nikon ??? but as red has stated, Canon is going to be the lens they use.

So let me ask a question everyone seems to think Gates housings are what Red are going to use, is this a definate ??? First of all, nothing is carved in stone.

As far as Gates and Canon being what RED is going to use, I don't think there has been anything official from RED on any of that. I think there was some direct talks with Gates early on but I think that dropped off and everyone (i.e. the housing manufacturers) are on their own as to what, when, where, how, to develop a RED housing. Since I personally have been a RED reservation holder (#206) for over 15 months, I have made it known that making an underwater housing for it has been a priority since the beginning. Since we have a history of being able to get housings to market quickly, and since I have also been working with one of the very early reservation holders (lower than 10), I think you will find we will have housings available before almost anyone has a chance to get a camera.

With that said you sort of need to rethink a lot of what you may have been used to in the past. RED is nothing like most of the video cameras you have probably been using. It is more like an Arriflex film camera than say a Sony Z1. There are essentially no automatic functions, and since it shoots raw, there really isn't much in the way of adjustments you would make like white balance, picture profiles, etc. So the typical Light and Motion and Amphibico type control - which is all based on the Sony LAN-C protocol (and which is why you don't see them making housings for Panasonic, JVC, etc.) - doesn't have much relevance with RED. There will be some desire for camera adjustment for frame rates, shutter angle (which the vast majority of even pro underwater video shooters have never dealt with before) and possibly gain (although because it is raw you are probably better to leave that for post), and we will offer some control for that, probably through the USB control. However, since some of that won't even be implemented on earlier REDs, it may have to come later.

Since there is no camera control of the lens, LAN-C type control is irrelevant there as well.

RED uses interchangeable lenses like a broadcast video camera, so as with the broadcast and film systems from Pace, AquaVideo, Hydroflex, Gates?, etc.. you generally choose a lens that is appropriate for the job rather than using a wide converter, or a Fathom type port which is just an underwater corrected wide converter. Focus, iris, zoom are controlled either by gearing or the use of pots to control electric servos (that is the typical method for broadcast video lenses used in Pace and AquaVideo housings). Hydroflex film housings often use gears on cine lenses, but it is likely that housings for RED will more commonly use either something like the Canon still 10-22mm on the Birger electronic mount so will use pots to control the Birger mount; or if cine lenses are used servo follow focus type servo motor drives will be used. Again, these are pot controlled like the broadcast video lenses. (Birger will be supporting Nikon lenses in the future so Nikons will be a possibility but up to now their widest is 12mm - which is only borderline wide enough on the RED).

As far as lenses, everyone would like to have a Zeiss 8mm ultra prime plus a nice short zoom - but the Zeiss 8mm is $25000 and a RED zoom is $6500 but not really wide enough. For informational purposes: to get the field of view of a Nikonos 15mm (which is really a 20mm) one needs about a 12mm on the RED. Since most of us in the past 10 years have been shooting even wider than that with typical high quality underwater video systems you can see why we are pushing to get to 10mm, which on the RED is like a 16mm on a 35mm film SLR camera.

As you think about the above and analyze what the RED really is, you start to realize that the housing issues are fairly simple and straightforward. RED is essentially an extremely high resolution, raw motion picture capture device. You need a rugged, reliable, fairly compact housing that provides good quality dome ports, with interchangeability for different lenses or the use of flat ports for macro - plus a good way to view it (and the most likely way to do view it - no matter what housing configuration used - will be an externally housed RED LCD. The RED LCD is sized right, has the highest resolution, and interfaces perfectly.) Beyond that the needs are fairly simple. We can certainly make a more rectangular type housing like a L&M or Amphibico (we do it for the broadcast VARICAM and F900 style cameras) but the shape of the base RED camera itself works very well with the less expensive cylindrical housings that we make, so the initial housings will almost certainly be cylindrical - whether in aluminum or pvc. I have done a fair amount of calculations that show there is little to be gained with other shapes, so there is a good possibility that will be the final shape as well. More extensive camera setup control will be fairly easy to add in the future through an electronic interface like what we do for broadcast cameras, or through simple mechanical controls - since we don't even know yet what direct access buttons RED will give us. The programmable/instant updateable nature of the RED means that there will almost certainly be some user set buttons that could provide one touch access to other frame rates and shutter angles - a few presets would cover almost everyones needs (particularly since most underwater shooters have never had access to this since until the HVX200, the cameras didn't even have these controls.)

I've tried to summarize some of the key points, but you will find a tremendous amount of in depth discussion over in the underwater bubble blowers group.

The main thing is you really have to get your head around two things: the most important being that RED shoots RAW and that changes everything as far as worrying about camera settings, filters and the like.

The second thing is that it uses interchangeable lenses. This has been dealt with for many years with broadcast cameras, 35mm movie cameras, IMAX cameras, etc. (and for people with very large budgets), yet we virtually always come back to dome ports with extreme wide angle lenses with flat port interchangeability for macro. It doesn't mean that FATHOM-type lenses are impossible, but they aren't as necessary (since you are not trying to fix a zoom lens that is an integral part of the camera) and from an economic/engineering standpoint it generally doesn't add up for the larger cine/broadcast type lenses.

Mark Thorpe

07-27-2007, 07:19 PM

Hi Guys,
I was looking through periodically during my trip but with such slow connections out there was difficult at times. Glad to hear all are busy. Mike, I know how you feel. BIG problems with the lumbar region from years with tanks etc Had chiropractors working overtime in Bali.

Nice summary for the housing options etc.

The trip to Lembeh was a blast, an absolute dream for any macro nut like me. In fact I'm actually thinking of concentrating more on macro for the future. Don't get me wrong, I love all aspects of the mega fauna but the world of macro is so much more diverse. It's true that its the big stuff that sells but for the long haul I think stock of macro critters is equally important, especially in a new format that will be so wild to see the textures of all the little bugs 'n slugs.

Basically spent 4 weeks in Lembeh Straits filming all and sundry, see attachments.

I could only stay there for up to 4 weeks due to the 'Visa On Arrival' procedure currently in force in Indonesia. By applying out of the country I will be able to get up to a 2 month visa. Once I get set with #954 to a level of competence and work flow understanding I'll be heading back to get all the macro critters from Lembeh in 4K. Thats gonna be a 2 month gig of macro magic!!

'Magic Moments' from this last trip included:
Heavily pregnant Pygmy Sea Horses
Hunting and Eating Hairy Frogfish
Flamboyant Cuttlefish Embryo in their egg sacks
Flamboyant Cuttlefish Hunting
Common Sea Horses Mating
Bobtail Squid Mating
(everything was going shag happy!!)
Ornate Ghost Pipe Fish with eggs
Jawfish building a new 'nest'
Conex Shell eating a Sea Cucumber

.......and a lot more besides.

Mind you, there is also another development in the process at the moment which may see me coming to live 'Stateside' by the end of next year. Its all good but can't divulge too much more. Early days at the mo.

Well, here's to continued discussions.

Cheers all,
Mark.

Ken Corben

07-27-2007, 09:43 PM

Mark you lucky sod - I'm stuck doing budgets, meetings and development while you're out living the dream.

Nice share...

Mark Thorpe

07-27-2007, 09:53 PM

yeah well, thats all looking to change if all goes as planned.

Mind you, I'm not complaining. I've had a blast having been 'on the road' for 15 years!! Time for some stability, and time to learn all of the other aspects of this business.

Cheers,
Mark.

Michael Hastings

08-04-2007, 11:17 AM

Hi Guys,

Well, here's to continued discussions.

Cheers all,
Mark.

Thought I'd bump the bubble blowers back onto the board.

The birger mount looks pretty good. At $950 it is even cheaper than I thought it would be. I guessed around $1500.) I think he is offering a 20% discount if we preorder in August. I don't think you can go wrong having it.

Mark Thorpe

08-07-2007, 01:32 AM

Sorry mate,
Busy editing two pieces for festival entries later this year. Hoping to have one showing in San Diego if all goes well in October.

Waaaaayyyyy behind with everything. Time to play catch up.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

08-07-2007, 10:22 PM

Underwater Red users will blow away the historical predecessors.

Thanks Jim and the Red Team

Johnny Friday

08-09-2007, 04:46 PM

Ken and company,
what are your thoughts on shooting 24p vs. 60p. I've been bouncing between both the past three months and my personal preferance is 60p. I also had a discussion with some folks on a recent bbc shoot with giant humboldt squid for the new series called "Life" and when they arrived to the boat that was our first discussion. They chose 30p for the sequences we shot, but after talking with the DP he said most of his library is 60p and it seems most versatile.

Anyway, each has it's own benefits, but for a stock library it seems 60p allows you more motion control (slow down images) and a larger percentage of u/w footage that ends up being kept--at least in my case. I think i blow 50% or more of what I shoot underwater when shooting 24p and can never get the fish to take 2.

Thoughts?.....

Michael Hastings

08-09-2007, 07:42 PM

Ken and company,
...can never get the fish to take 2.

Thoughts?.....

Actually, I would like to get some input on the 24P/60P thing too. My gut feeling is the more information we capture the better we are - that is the highest resolution and the highest frame rate.

I think we can only get 24P right now in 4K REDCODE RAW (the spec says 30fps but Jim said in a recent post that it may be a later update to get 4K at 30fps eventually)

My feeling is I will shoot 4K whenever possible and I think we should shoot the highest frame rate we can as well, and do pulldowns in post. However, I haven't been doing a lot of editing in the past few years so what seems like it should be easy in Final cut, may be more difficult than I think.

Ken Corben

08-09-2007, 09:38 PM

An interesting question. I would say that if one is building a 4K stock library or shooting a specific 4K project NOT slated for 4K/60fps release/projection than the advantage is lost. You have also increased your 4K data storage by 2.5x as well, no? Although you do gain by having a 2.5x reduced exposure for the ISO 500 rating they're getting on the set of Wanted at 180deg/24fps.

I would work closely with my editors and engineers before shooting outside the envelope or betting on any advantage of the 4K/60 shooting mode.

Here's an informative thread where David Mullen and others address the discussion. You might raise this question in the ask david anything thread.
http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/lofiversion/index.php?t15157.html

Mike - you'll love FCP it's software that is fun to learn. Us U/W guys don't have to worry about synch sound in the pull downs either.

Mark Thorpe

08-09-2007, 10:07 PM

But eventually I would imagine the 'big boys' are going to be looking at 4k stock acquisition for future programming. Quite how far in the future that would be remains to be seen but it will obviously happen. If someone were to shoot stock exclusively, and if they survive the 'lean times' building up to that time of format need then surely they would be 'quids in'?

Shooting in the dark maybe but thats just my thought.

Cheers,
Mark.

Michael Hastings

08-10-2007, 02:03 PM

I just looked at the format options page again just to refresh and it definitely shows 30fps as the limit for 4K REDCODE RAW which is our format going to a harddrive or CF. Jim stated that we would only have 24fps for a while. But what do you think of shooting everything 30fps - that's only 25% more data?

I'll take a look at davids post - he's usually got a pretty good take on things.

Us U/W guys don't have to worry about synch sound in the pull downs either.

So you don't mind if those bubble sounds are off a frame or two?

EDIT: Just looked at that thread, which is mostly about 60p for showscan purposes. I wasn't really thinking we wanted to display in 60p - just that if we shot 60p we would have those extra frames if you wanted to slow it down. Again maybe our 4K REDCODE RAW limit of 30fps is a good compromise.

I've always been curious about SHOWSCAN - never got to see it, but that's a subject for another thread. I did enjoy David's response to the one guy where he says "THINK THINK THINK about it" to the guy that's being obtuse. I've felt that way a few times on some of the other threads.

Johnny Friday

08-10-2007, 02:28 PM

What I like about shooting in 60p (stock footage that is) is that anyone that buys the footage can use it for slow motion as well. If you slow it down in the timeline it works. 24p just doesn't. My thought was shoot 24p for a specific job if asked and 60p for stock since it has more uses. I can't say that the 24p stuff looks much different than the 60p...until a fish makes a quick move and then you get some strange effects. 24p looks awsome on nice rhythmic moving animals and plants. but then when you get a wham quick move on something---say a predation shot---it just may not look so good at 24p. Correct me if i am wrong here----maybe i'm a poor camera operater--but that is my experience with 24p underwater. 60p sure makes it easy to not screw up.Way more storage--yes! But this of course might be a moot point since at 4k only 30p is available. Now...the question of archiving and a proper software solution???

Russ Campbell

08-10-2007, 09:24 PM

The other format to consider if it becomes available is 2K scaled at 60 fps if you are going to be filming fast paced scenes or even 2K cropped at 100 fps. Jim also referred to other 4K and 2K options being considered, so hopefully we will get a 4K 60 fps option for on-board shooting in the near future. If more options do become available at 4K, the question is whether to film most of your footage at 24 fps or do we stick with 25 and 30 fps for the bulk of our work depending on your location?

Mark Thorpe

08-10-2007, 10:18 PM

Hey Russ and Cindy,
Glad to see you made it here. Its a shame when the HD(V) and above formats were (are in the process of) being founded that the playing field wasn't completely leveled. OK so we now seem to be fine with the screen resolutions at 1080 and above but we're still banging heads (and causing concerns for stock shooters) with the whole frame rate issue. I guess it will be a loooooong time coming before that also gets conformed to one standard.
"C'est la Vie said the old folk".

Cheers,
Mark.

Jason Sturgis

08-13-2007, 03:31 PM

I wanted to check in with the bubble blowers group to see if anyone was going to be out at the Jackson Hole wildlife film fest this october? It would be great to meet up with any red users out there, talk shop, and kick around some thoughts for housings, and how amazing it will be shoot with Red once it ships.
Mark, saw some of your images from Indonesia-very nice stuff. I am going to submit something to San Diego as well but won't be able to attend do to a film trip. Sorry I'll miss seeing your piece on the new killer display in Qualcom.

Best,
Jason

Mark Thorpe

08-14-2007, 01:04 AM

Hey Jason6am,
Thanks for the kind words. I'm going to be in DC in October for a symposium but am then slated to go directly out to Darwin, Australia for a project. Won't be able to get down there this year. I'm concentrating on getting a short finished for the 'big one', Antibes, France, at the end of October at the expense of SDUFEX in San Diego.

Such is life but I don't know when I'm going to have the chance to enter into another festival so I prefer to temporarily 'bow out' of the festival circuit at one of the most respected of European meetings. I won't be able to accompany the entry seeing as I'll be in Australia during the screening, last weekend in October. I'll be there in spirit willing the film on.

Cheers,
Mark.

Jason Sturgis

08-14-2007, 01:07 PM

Mark,
Good luck on your entry for Antibes. I hope you blow them away with all of the amazing macro that you have been shooting. You are defiitly situated in one of the dive meca's of the world, truly a gorgeous area.
I won't be able to be there in person for my SDUFEX piece. It kills me that I'll miss it but that is the way it goes sometimes. Again, best of luck with the editing and have a great time in Australia.
Best,
Jason

Mark Thorpe

08-14-2007, 05:25 PM

Jason,
Being based here is a dream. I've been around the islands of Micronesia and Palau for the past, almost, seven years. I could stay here indefinitely but there are bigger fish to fry. I'll be letting everyone in on some pretty wild news as soon as things get finalized.

Thanks for the encouragement for Antibes. Just waiting for my 'voice slut' to finish his magic so I can lay down the commentary track etc.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

08-16-2007, 03:31 PM

Clock is ticking - any input or ideas on these topics for the underwater Red camera system?

Sharky

Here is the roughly to scale break down of the red one with battery, HDD and lens choices for selection of the tube stock for the housing (PVC and Aluminum). The Zeiss 10 mm VS the Canon 10-22 mm is the $10K question. Both yield a 16 mm equivalent with the CMOS 1.6x conversion factor for a 107 degree field of view. Maybe the 8" diameter tube stock will work for the housing with an 8" dome port?

The Zeiss is 2" longer and 2.5" wider. May be a moot point with the Birger adaptor.

I thought of a tray for the camera that locks at the bottom and a tray for the HDD and battery that either locks at the top or at the bottom separately for ease of change out with out disturbing the camera. Canon/Birger solution requires a board to run the focus and fstop? The Canon does have a manual focus ring.

I figure a screw on ND 2 will rate the ISO at 125. This should work in daylight - clear water for fstop range of 22 to 5.6 depending on depth at a 24 fps 180 deg shutter or 1/48 sec @ ISO 125. What will matter under water is the center sharpness for subject matter in CFWA of large animals - sharks, whales etc. Edge sharpness is not as critical UW except in 4K projected on a theatrical screen?

Canon lens review:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-S-10-22mm-f-3.5-4.5-USM-Lens-Review.aspx

Johnny Friday

08-16-2007, 04:02 PM

Is there anyway to get around a screw on ND filter? With lens and glass port placment issues...is there anyway to have the nd filter on an attachment that you can manually flip up and down? Or is there an issue of distance from lens to glass port that will not allow this?
I'm assuming that each lens has its optimum f stop range and having a permanent nd filter might affect it. So it is on the hvx 200. And I use a flip down nd from time to time as well as the internal nd. But the f stop range is finicky so i'm adding and removing nd's all the time in order to stay within the optimum f stop range.
....does this make sense only to me? I have no idea if i said was understandable. I just use the danged thing. what do you think ken?

Ken Corben

08-16-2007, 09:37 PM

I think the work around is the exposure latitude provided by the RED camera. It's not video and it's not film. Jarred said to watch the highlights. That said I think that Mike Hastings can/will build anything into the housings.

A 77 mm ND filter on the Canon requires a 3" throw so the diameter of the housing takes a huge hit. Building a pocket/cavity for the ND throw increases the price of the housing and may be a bit unsightly?

Testing will reveal more shortly but I'd guess that the ND screw ons are the simple solution. No ND at night (ISO 500) and the ND 2 by day in sunlight/clear water above 2 ATM of depth and a ND 1 for deeper daylight work (ISO 250). Expose properly and underexpose by 1/2 a stop when in doubt. The result should be excellent given the exposure latitude of the camera?

Thoughts?

Mark Thorpe

08-16-2007, 10:15 PM

Since this whole thing began I've had nothing but absolute respect for those willing to push the envelope. Sure I've banged heads with a few people on the way but, hey, thats all part of life. Like adults we move on, forgive and forget.

I guess there's no easy way to say it but I've just cashed in my reservation. Arghhhhh, I hear you all screaming, but there's a perfectly good reason. I've recently accepted a full time gig with The National Geographic Society and will be heading up a couple of their ongoing projects, namely WildCam and Crittercam.

It's a bittersweet decision. I really wanted to look forward with RED, to stand amongst the ranks of those forging the future and on the other hand to have this position on my resume will speak volumes in future years. I do have potential scenarios of what I can do whilst I'm working with 'the Society' but I'm not going to go into those here.

I will still be around the forums and welcome any inclusions in discussions etc regarding the movement to introduce RED to the reefs of the World. I'm still one of you guys, minus the reservation number .....

Thanks for all the great conversations of the past. Long live the great conversations of the future.........

Thanks one and all, I'll be keeping up with all of your opus projects, and I'll join you one day. Although which generation of RED that will be with remains to be seen.

Thanks again,
Mark.

Michael Schrengohst

08-16-2007, 10:19 PM

That sounds fantastic! Best of Luck.

Mark Thorpe

08-16-2007, 10:43 PM

Like I said, its a bittersweet deal. The people here are true professionals. It became an ingrained part of my day to swing by the RED Net to see what was going on. I'll still be doing that now, albeit as an observer.

Thanks,
Mark.
P.S The only thing to revert the decision would be if Jim were to hire me as the official underwater tester for all things RED, yeah right. What would life be without ambition?

Russ Campbell

08-17-2007, 05:35 AM

Hey Mark. We hope that you will continue to visit here once in a while. I think you need to begin convincing NG to use RED crittercams. We will stay in touch via email.

Mark Thorpe

08-22-2007, 04:03 PM

Hey guys,
I may have jumped the gun a little with the whole refund ideas so I've decided to hold on to everything for now. Just couldn't come to terms with negging out on RED. It a drug I tell ya!! I guess getting the offer I had all ideas running through this cavity of an airspace I call a brain and RED was one of the casualties of that. Back on track, looking at options and trying desperately to see if the future bosses will accept me with RED.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

08-29-2007, 09:46 PM

OK,

If you could shoot RED underwater anywhere in the world in late September or early October this year where would you go?

Mark Thorpe

08-29-2007, 09:57 PM

Palau, for a damn fine adventure with a baitball. Still going strong.

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 10:01 PM

Mag Bay or Benitos....or hell Alijos Rock...

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 10:09 PM

check that...add Vancuver island: port hardy etc.... to the list.

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 10:17 PM

some beautiful sites up on the island---especially on/underwater

Ken Corben

08-29-2007, 10:17 PM

Port Hardy, Yikes! OK, add minimum water temp of 70 deg F and 30'+ vis to the wish list.

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 10:27 PM

with all that giant underwater life you soon forget your lip is stuck to you nose and your fingers don't move. But hell...it's worth it! Oh...and a pee valve is a must or diapers.

Ken Corben

08-29-2007, 10:32 PM

with all that giant underwater life you soon forget your lip is stuck to you nose and your fingers don't move. But hell...it's worth it! Oh...and a pee valve is a must or diapers.

OK...

That said, what's the weather/water like in Palau Mark? When do you officially leave?

Mark Thorpe

08-29-2007, 10:42 PM

No fixed date, waiting for some admin papers from Manila, expecting to be wrapped with the shop anytime by the third week in Sept. Need to be in DC on the 13th October. Water temp right now is 28 celcius, viz is incredible, the Scad have spawned so the baitball is getting bigger. Some folks saw it a week ago and it was off the scale. I wasn't there so can't vouch 100% but by the sounds of their stories it was as good as ever.

Cheers,
Mark.

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 10:42 PM

I guess there's always south of the border....close to home and cheap and always action packed

Mark Thorpe

08-29-2007, 10:46 PM

haha, crazy images. Where's the Orca shot from? Mad......

Ken Corben

08-29-2007, 10:52 PM

Johnny you tease!

How many years and what times of the year to get those insane shots?

You're right about close to home - you're only a 6 hour flight in my plane.

BTW - are the humboldt squid still around in Sept? Show us some shots.

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 10:52 PM

haha, crazy images. Where's the Orca shot from? Mad......

Mark, belive it or not....here in La Paz...by Cedros Island. We have two roaming groups of transient orcas. They're here now....feeding (from what I see) on the mobula rays.

Mark Thorpe

08-29-2007, 11:00 PM

too cool, must be a buzz being in the water with them. Great stuff.....

Mark.

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 11:04 PM

not the best...but there's a few humboldts for ya

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 11:07 PM

too cool, must be a buzz being in the water with them. Great stuff.....

Mark.

Mark, I never get used or comfortable with it. My lady friend on the otherhand has absolutely no fear! I'll go, but I'm always watching my back. Those transients are tricky. They love to play games...3 swim by or at you, one breaks off for the plunge---2 go by you making sure you see them, then # 3 comes in behind you

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 11:11 PM

squid are all year. I would have said before only Aug-Oct. But I did it again late June of this year with bbc and Bob was shooting. Water wasn't the best. BUT....we nailed the best footage and behaivior I have EVER seen with the squid. To add to it....we had two makos come in at night on us while working with teh squids. Now that was HAIRY!!!

Mark Thorpe

08-29-2007, 11:14 PM

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 11:28 PM

So it's not just the record finger thats set to twitchin' then....:ohmy:

I done Humbolts, albeit from the surface, leaning over from a Zodiac with a crazy Mexican fisherman holding my feet for security!, in 2005 from Santa Rosalia. Big red horrible buggers, man they squirt.

Cheers,
Mark.

I have to admit that they seem ferocious. But really they are one of the more gentle animals I've ever been with in the water---merely curious. I wish i had a picture---but past june we were surrounded by literally hundreds--- i would estimate 300 or so compltely surrounded (me and a gal named Josiane). I came up and grabbed some sardines---and yes, they ate from our hands....these were 3-4 footers. not at all the monsters they're made out to be. BUt i have watched the rip eachother apart---compltetly canibolize eachother---crazy stuff.

Ken Corben

08-29-2007, 11:31 PM

Makos on the other hand are like white sharks with short man's attitude. I remember being pinned underwater between the bait ball and the dive ladder by a pair of makos. Very smart shark.

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 11:36 PM

Makos on the other hand are like white sharks with short man's attitude. I remember being pinned underwater between the bait ball and the dive ladder by a pair of makos. Very smart shark.

I seem to recall being circled by two makos with my buddy still throwing chum over the top of me.....every move i made those bad boys kept me from getting far.....then I had to ditch my dive tank/bc/weights on the underwater platform....tie them to it--take one last breath and hit the swim step running and jump in one fell swoop to the deck---and one of those bastards was right on my ass.
.....ring any bells?
.....what fun and learning experiences....:ohmy:

Ken Corben

08-29-2007, 11:42 PM

That'll teach you to leave the pink slip for the boat onboard :-)

Mark Thorpe

08-29-2007, 11:44 PM

I've always thought about producing a book collection of crazy assed stories such as these for that perfect surface interval read. If I ever do I know where to come for the prologues!

Fun times. Me? I've been tracked by a group of three Grey Reef Sharks during a solo dive on Yap. I ended up in a coral head with them circling, stayed around for about ten minutes...almost had a nip from a silvertip but thats about it.....worst one was a damn tiger moray that swam into my BCD in Tenerife.....scared the bejeezus outta me.

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 11:44 PM

i guess that's one way to knock off the partner. Who would ever argue that it WASN'T an accident?

Johnny Friday

08-29-2007, 11:46 PM

....now that's funny and would give anybody a scare....Moray looking for a new home. he must have been just as freaked.

Mark Thorpe

08-30-2007, 12:03 AM

Yeah, well none of us knew about it until he slipped out on to the floor of my mates Zodiac! With those teeth flashing around the boat we made sure we got him back in the water, unceremoniously, pretty darn quick.

(for those who don't know a Zodiac is an inflatable boat and moray eels have incredibly sharp teeth)

Michael Hastings

08-30-2007, 05:44 AM

From my understanding one of the reasons you have to use ND so much on the HVX200 and Sony Z1, etc. is that you can only stop down to about f11 before diffraction effects severely reduce the sharpness - so the camera won't let you it go smaller. I think this is partly due to the very small sensor size and also just the lower quality of the cheaper lenses.

I need some confirmation on this from one of the optical geniuses, but if I understand it correctly this should be much less of an issue with RED because of the larger sensor size and better lenses that are sharper at smaller f stops. Therefore we have more range to work with.

Is there anyway to get around a screw on ND filter? With lens and glass port placment issues...is there anyway to have the nd filter on an attachment that you can manually flip up and down? Or is there an issue of distance from lens to glass port that will not allow this?
I'm assuming that each lens has its optimum f stop range and having a permanent nd filter might affect it. So it is on the hvx 200. And I use a flip down nd from time to time as well as the internal nd. But the f stop range is finicky so i'm adding and removing nd's all the time in order to stay within the optimum f stop range.
....does this make sense only to me? I have no idea if i said was understandable. I just use the danged thing. what do you think ken?

Johnny Friday

08-30-2007, 09:04 PM

so true Mike. I think 9.6 is about it before the image begins to be noticeably affected---OH---on the hvx that is. There's a small sweet spot on that camera that I always catch myself fudging with when caught up in a shot. Then I'll go back and do it again with a different exposure setting...or wait for a cloud to pass or something. I haven't had to use any of my external nd filters in housing on the hvx....or RARELY.

so from what I'm hearing we'll have to do some guess work on the nd's based on water conditions and depth---and hopefully not overshoot with to dark an nd and same for the other side. Sounds to me in reality there will be a bit of bouncing up and down to find a rhythm....since i'm not as bright as others in this forum---half the time i have no idea what's being said---I'll have to keep a notebook and log for exposure settings and nd filters to use based on depth/conditions. I think we'll have to get by that way since it does not sound as though a flip down ND is a possibility.
:excl:

Mark Thorpe

08-30-2007, 09:26 PM

hehehe, and you think I've got brains?? NOT.....my eventual housing will be covered in slates with all previously noted sweet spots, scenarios and settings....I'll be like a swimming chalkboard!

Ken Corben

08-30-2007, 11:50 PM

"It can't be characterized as film and it can't be characterized as video." Ted quoted on Apple red page - love this video:
http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/?movie=red

Remember we are recording RAW with 11 stops of latitude - in English exposed properly and in focus you can create amazing looks in Redcine, RedAlert, FCP 6, and of course Scratch.

BTW - I have mentioned ND2 for 125 ISO - this is video nomeneclature. Film ND's are .3 increments so ask for a 77mm screw on ND at Sammy's or B&H with this in mind for the Canon 10-22 lens.

Mark Thorpe

08-31-2007, 02:06 AM

Hey guys,
Just finished my latest short. "The Majesty of Muck" is basically a showcase of all things super macro (stacked achromatic diopters) from Lembeh Straits. It will be sent on Monday (FedEx) to Antibes, pre-selection process for this years festival. Fingers crossed.

Q: Each .3 increment is equal to how many stops?

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

08-31-2007, 10:12 AM

Q: Each .3 increment is equal to how many stops?

Check out Evin's elegant post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=74392#post74392

Johnny Friday

08-31-2007, 10:23 AM

"

Remember we are recording RAW with 11 stops of latitude - in English exposed properly and in focus you can create amazing looks in Redcine, RedAlert, FCP 6, and of course Scratch.

....yeah, what he said! uhh? not meant to be critical by the way KC. you're talking techno talk to me....i look; i see; i adjust; i record.

....some of that is joking, but as i understand it's first expose properly (within the proper f stop range). So that means a stop or two under so that we can manually adjust exposure. I only worry about being underexposed with too much ND...and then having to dial up my exposure setting and then being out of the proper fstop settings.

....So, all things being equal (if i understand correctly) we can't just fix it all in post. We have to nail exposure/focus and worry about white balance/color correction later. --- BY THE WAY, that's how i work now with the HVX---FORGET white balance, it's a waste of time with a digital setup nowadays. NOR do i worry about black balance on the HVX. I just carry an underwater white balance slate on one side and color/gray scale marker on the other--throw it in front of the camera when recording and adjust ALL in post later. By the way, one of those slates is on my fins---I guess that's the hands free method.

...but i do worry about being underexposed and then adjusting fstop way to far down ---out of range of the so called "sweet spot"

Johnny Friday

08-31-2007, 10:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jannard
Actually, we are getting very good results at ISO 1000 and think that it is a very useable rating for the camera. Whether or not you choose 320 or 500 as the "rated" ISO completely depends on the subject matter.
Jim

at 1000 can you imagine the possibilities for underwater night images? I can already see some amazing images that will soon be captured.
Humboldt Squid
Spawning worms
Salps
etc........

Michael Hastings

08-31-2007, 11:52 AM

....some of that is joking, but as i understand it's first expose properly (within the proper f stop range). So that means a stop or two under so that we can manually adjust exposure. I only worry about being underexposed with too much ND...and then having to dial up my exposure setting and then being out of the proper fstop settings.

From what I have been reading in the other thread from Graeme Nattress we would actually want to overexpose a little bit - or as they call it "expose to the right" (of the histogram) because there are many more of the code values devoted to the highlights than the shadows so to avoid posterizing the shadows you overexpose a bit.

Quote from Graeme:
"Yes, but I'd say it's more like exposing to ensure that the maximum number of code values are used for significant image tones. And normally, that means exposing to the right....."

he references a good article about this in discussion with Thomas Knoll the original photoshop author:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

Also, Evin has posted a nice thread about filters:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=74392#post74392

BTW has anybody ever tried polarizers underwater? Any advantage?

Suffice it to say that once we get raw figured out we are going to have some awesome capability - like what the DSLR U/W guys have had for years. As almost exclusively a video guy, keeping track of white balance and limited exposure latitude has been a pain in my *ss for the last 25 years.

Johnny Friday

08-31-2007, 02:43 PM

i guess if that's what orders from the top are...then so be it. That goes AGAINST THE GRAIN as WAS in the past...or should I say soon to be past. i think that will take some getting used to....I think I remember in a thread a long time ago from Jarred when he said something about wathch the highlights--- I HAD NO IDEA WHAT HE WAS REFERING TO--- UNTIL NOW...but, will we be able to monitor the highlights on LCD or EVF via some kind of ZEBRA pattern???? How will we WATCH THE HIGHLIGHTS without a waveform monitor? ....don't work under the water column?? So can you all shed light on how we do this with no referance? OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING....and we will have a referance to monitor the highlights.....oh....yeah the u/w light meter---but still to monitor highlights---sounds like you have to be on the cutting edge no?

Michael Hastings

08-31-2007, 03:16 PM

That goes AGAINST THE GRAIN as WAS in the past...or should I say soon to be past. i think that will take some getting used to....I think I remember in a thread a long time ago from Jarred when he said something about wathch the highlights--- I HAD NO IDEA WHAT HE WAS REFERING TO--- UNTIL NOW...but, will we be able to monitor the highlights on LCD or EVF via some kind of ZEBRA pattern???? How will we WATCH THE HIGHLIGHTS without a waveform monitor?

the camera provides a histogram, I believe in the VF output and I think can be overlaid on the LCD output as well. I know that it goes against the grain of what we have been used to but if you read the explanation of how the cmos chips work and how the samples get divided up it then makes a lot of sense.

Johnny Friday

08-31-2007, 03:19 PM

as long as there's a tool to monitor then no problem. I sure hate the idea of guessing....That's how it sounded when reading some of the former posts---albeit those shooting topside and montitors with histograms/wavforms adn the like....with that overlay---sounds lovely.

Ken Corben

08-31-2007, 03:38 PM

Johnny Friday

08-31-2007, 03:46 PM

You guys are going to theorize yourselves into a frenzy - geez :-)

Johnny, you can simply buy the How To Shoot Underwater Red Digital Cinema (URDC) DVD, available in blu-ray only, for $49.95 when I release it the week after shooting in Mexico with you. Or maybe we'll swap boat charter fees for some in water how to lessons?

Either way what are friends for:tongue:

Now that's a good one. By the way...did you do a market study? I am betting on at least 9 sales the first quarter....what next? How about the making of? that might get a few laughs as well as a profit to pay for a week on the boat with a case of ice cold MEXICAN COCA COLA!! now that's what i'm talkin bout.

But don't forget you asked.....and you received---ideas, questions, thoughts??? there they is.....

Johnny Friday

08-31-2007, 03:47 PM

You guys are going to theorize yourselves into a frenzy - geez :-)

Johnny, you can simply buy the How To Shoot Underwater Red Digital Cinema (URDC) DVD, available in blu-ray only, for $49.95 when I release it the week after shooting in Mexico with you. Or maybe we'll swap boat charter fees for some in water how to lessons?

Either way what are friends for:tongue:

Now that's a good one. By the way...did you do a market study? I am betting on at least 9 sales the first quarter....what next? How about the making of? that might get a few laughs as well as a profit to pay for a week on the boat with a case of ice cold MEXICAN COCA COLA!! now that's what i'm talkin bout. :bleh:

But don't forget you asked.....and you received---ideas, questions, thoughts??? there they is.....

Ken Corben

08-31-2007, 03:59 PM

I heard you laughing all the way from Mexico on that one. I'd bet that RED is going to exceed all our expectations in the undersea world and that the shooting and work flow will be way cool!

I'm looking at an intel 17" macbook pro as my field unit and possibly the AJA IO HD http://www.aja.com/html/products_Io_IoHD.html for my IO box to manage, review and archive to redundant digital drives from the 64 GB CF cards next year.

How cool is that? 64 GB CF cards recording 4K redcode RAW in an Aquavideo housing with one of Mike's custom power packs. Talk about small.

Now let's just hope there's no El Nino next year.

BTW - thanks for remembering the ice cold cokes - you know how I operate so knock 5 bucks off the DVD. If you pre-order knock off another 5 bucks.

Mark Thorpe

08-31-2007, 04:13 PM

Hey you guys, break a leg as they say. Sure you're gonna be getting some good stuff in the coming weeks. All the best with the shoot.

Best,
Mark.

Michael Hastings

08-31-2007, 04:15 PM

Johnny, you can simply buy the How To Shoot Underwater Red Digital Cinema (URDC) DVD, available in blu-ray only, for $49.95 when I release it the week after shooting in Mexico with you.

Do you take paypal?

Now that's a good one. By the way...did you do a market study? I am betting on at least 9 sales the first quarter...

Don't tell him that - he'll raise the price...:clown2:

Ken Corben

08-31-2007, 04:19 PM

I forget - is it 99% O-ring and 1% housing designer or the other way around?

Ken Corben

08-31-2007, 04:57 PM

Hey you guys, break a leg as they say. Sure you're gonna be getting some good stuff in the coming weeks. All the best with the shoot.

Best,
Mark.

Hey Mark, you're passing this way then on your way from Palau to the UK and probably changing planes in LA why don't you think about joining us. It's a short flight to Johnny in the Baja from LA. Just asking?

Mark Thorpe

08-31-2007, 05:17 PM

Wish I could mate. I'm going through Manila, Dubai. Shorter and cheaper. Land in the UK, dump stuff then off to Sicilly for a week to meet some friends, then on to DC for a meeting. Whats the schedule? How long will you be in Baja? I will be in DC for a couple of days as of the 13th. I may be able to look at some time after that depending on my immediate timetable, I'd also like to think I could get back down to southern France for this years Antibes Festival to support on my latest, plus all the networking etc. All still up in the air.

Cheers,
Mark.

Michael Hastings

09-01-2007, 06:33 AM

I forget - is it 99% O-ring and 1% housing designer or the other way around?

x-rings

Mark Thorpe

09-01-2007, 10:09 PM

Hey Guys,
How's it all going with 'things'?.......anything worth sharing, like tests from your aquariums :w00t: hope all is good.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

09-01-2007, 10:46 PM

Ya,

Gibby and I arm wrestled over dunking #8 today - he won. That old adage about treachery and old age beats out youth and enthusiasm every time is really true :-)

It'sa comin'

Mark Thorpe

09-01-2007, 10:52 PM

Kudos to both of you,
OK, I'm off to play with my Z1 for a while. Hey, I'm diving with Chuck Nicklin tomorrow! He's out here with a crowd at the mo. Mary Lynn Price too, the founder of divefilm.com

All a good bunch of people. Divers all.

Best, and keep up the good work.
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

09-11-2007, 01:11 AM

Hey Guys,
Posted over on the Lens thread but no response. Well I guess I've decided to go for a real underwater niche market and specialize my shoots towards the arna of Macro and Super Macro. I dunno, there's just something a bit sexy about nailing the shot of a Slugs eyebrow or the light reflection in a Sea Horse's eye. That said I'm wondering what people would suggest for a very good quality piece of glass with telephoto ability.

I'm obviously not wanting to look at using diopters in conjunction with any lenses. Target species would be from Frogfish size down to Pygmy Sea Horse portraiture shots (yes, of the head). Working for stock in 4K.

Any ideas.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Looking forward to news of the tests Mike, Ken and Gibby.

Ken Corben

09-15-2007, 06:07 PM

Something cool is in the air - can you smell it?
Mysteriums working underwater you say? No, 4K images from the sea. Say it ain't so.

Hmmm...

Jason Sturgis

09-15-2007, 07:20 PM

Any new news on the testing of #8? That was a big arm wrestle to see who would dunk the rig. Good luck with the tests!

Mark Thorpe

09-15-2007, 07:55 PM

Something fishy going on 'round here.........??

Russ Campbell

09-17-2007, 08:44 AM

Definitely sounds like fish feature films in the near future:shifty: Mark, how about using something like the Nikon 105mm VR macro with achromatic diopters for some real cu's.

Michael Hastings

09-17-2007, 09:48 AM

Definitely sounds like fish feature films in the near future:shifty: Mark, how about using something like the Nikon 105mm VR macro with achromatic diopters for some real cu's.

Ken Corben and I will have some interesting updates later in the week.

One thing I can throw out there is that I think you are going to want to take a serious look at Canon glass.

The macro versions of Canon are below (prices taken from B&H website):

EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM Price $ 469.95
EF 180mm f/3.5L Macro USM Canon Price: $1239

Mark: since it seems you have been doing a lot of macro with your Z1 and most of my macro (limited amounts) in the past few years has been with bigass broadcast rigs, I was wondering what kind of distances you are normally working at i.e. 5-6"?, 1-2 ft?

The canon 100 shows at 5.9" distance at 1:1 magnification.
The 180 shows about 18" for 1:1

Diopters or extensions would give closer focus/greater magnification. (I found a set of 3 Kenko 12mm, 20mm, and 36mm extensions on ebay for US $107 - I will check my Kenko source/ Canon makes their own also a $12mm for about $80 and a 25mm for about $129) These also might allow use of the 70-200 IS zoom (which will be part of my standard kit) as a macro lens (but no infinity focus) and allow stabilization. Extensions wouldn't affect the quality of the glass like diopters will, although achromats are very good. We will probably compare these for dome port focus compensation as well.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=155&modelid=7400
Inner focusing affords a long working distance of 5.9in. (149mm) at 1x.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=ModelTechSpecsTabAct&fcategoryid=155&modelid=7324

Mark Thorpe

09-17-2007, 09:38 PM

Hi Guys,

Russ Campbell wrote: Mark, how about using something like the Nikon 105mm VR macro with achromatic diopters for some real cu's.
Hi Russ,
I'd prefer to not have to use Achromatic Diopters with RED. I believe given the right glass, that there's no need to put yet another layer of glass in front of the lens. I guess time will tell if I can find such a lens. I'm talking the ability to get Coral Polyps full frame during spawning etc.

AquaVideoRed206 wrote: I was wondering what kind of distances you are normally working at i.e. 5-6"?, 1-2 ft?
Hi Mike,
Depends on my setup. If I went with the +2 I could go on a regular dive, able to film White Tips for example but then at full telephoto be able to pick out the pits in its snout. If concentrating on a Nudibranch with that one I could be about 2 ft away and get good results on profiles etc. With the +3.5 I couldn't film anything other than macro critters. I could be about 1.5ft away at full telephoto range and get nice head shots on Goby's etc.

At times, especially in Lembeh Straits I would stack the +3.5 with the +2 and go for the sick stuff. I could get individual head shots on cleaner shrimp etc. I could also get tighter, all from a foot away, to get shots close of developing embryo inside Flamboyant Cuttlefish Eggs etc. I told you it was sick!

Seeing as I want to continue being able to film this kind of content, and push those boundaries further still (imagine birthing Pygmy Sea Horses)? I'll be looking for the right glass for that. I've heard nothing but glowing reports from everyone who has had hands on experience with your products. I will definitely be looking into that, and the lenses mentioned. I'm sure we'll find common ground. In the mean time keep up the good work.

I may be a bit lax in contact at the mo but in the last throes of my move from Palau, back to the real World......see how big that bump really is eh?

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

09-18-2007, 12:00 AM

It would seem a good idea to stick with one manufacturer for lenses since the Birger Canon mount seems like a brilliant solution for us underwater shooters. In other words, Canon 10-22mm for wide work and the Canon 100mm for macro/CU.

This type of continuity will save heart ache in the field for optical port change outs on our housings.

Mark Thorpe

09-18-2007, 12:17 AM

Exactly Ken,
I'm gonna be buying a new DSLR on my return to Europe so looking for something where glass can be shared with RED, saves cash all around. I'll admit its a daunting step for me. One I embrace but nonetheless still getting my head around it all.

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

09-18-2007, 01:41 AM

New Avatar shot with Nikon 10.5mm Fisheye. Should we expect the same kinda potential from the Canon? Photographed by Mike Veitch.

Mike is one of the collaborators on my website. Great guy, Canadian (for his sins) but hopefully will accompany me sometime in the future for photographic support / behind the scenes photo calls etc.

Cheers,
Mark.

Russ Campbell

09-18-2007, 07:37 AM

Hi Mark. I reckon the Nikon 10.5 look could be achieved with a Tokina 10-17mm fisheye lens with a Canon mount. The Canon 10-22mm is rectilinear as far as I know, so you won't get that great curved look for mantas, whalesharks, etc. and will most likely look a lot more like the images from the Z1 and SWP44 port.

Mark Thorpe

09-18-2007, 05:15 PM

Cheers Russ. Hey how's things back in SA? Hoping to be out there very soon.

Mark.
P.s just posted a short video montage on my blog if you wanna check it out.

"Ocean Tribute"
www.camdiver.blogspot.com

SalaTar

09-18-2007, 08:25 PM

what about us non bubble blowin folks?

one at 1500 feet two at 300 feet

wanna see some at 7k feet?

Russ Campbell

09-19-2007, 07:40 AM

Michael Hastings

09-19-2007, 08:06 AM

New Avatar shot with Nikon 10.5mm Fisheye. Should we expect the same kinda potential from the Canon? Photographed by Mike Veitch.Cheers,
Mark.

You should get slightly wider (5%) but rectilinear. It is really a pretty phenomenal lens.

The 10-22 has been out for a couple years so there should be shots out there from underwater people shooting the 10-22 on Canon Rebel XT/EOS20D that would be almost exactly the same view as RED. (RED would be slightly higher res).

Here's a link to a guy that shoots a 20D with 10-22mm and the 60mm macro (this is their ef-s version - I would recommend the EF100 macro for RED.)

http://homepage.mac.com/maui_underwater/go/Bonaire2007/index.html

Mark Thorpe

09-19-2007, 03:39 PM

Hey Mark. We are heading back to Johannesburg next week Wednesday. We have been pretty busy with company identity development, webpage, etc. Staring to have diving withdrawal symptoms already:waaa: Let us know when you are anticipating getting to SA so we can hook up for a frosty. We are thinking about heading to Umkomaas for some rebreather training and some tiger fun.Russ, I hear ya on the 'cold turkey' side. I haven't dived here for over a week and I'm feeling it. I guess thats something I need to get used to now though. On my return to the UK I also need to look into taking the HSE Part 4 Commercial Diving cert. Basically to be freelance from the UK working in this field I have to have a recognized commercially valid underwater license, PADI just don't cut it I guess. So before going to SA, after the symposium in D.C, I'll need to do that. Its about a ten day course, another string to the bow. Then there's the Visa application process so its anyone's guess how long that takes.

Currently in discussions with the people in SA on who's work the project will be based. Optimistically I would reckon maybe sometime mid-November for an arrival date in SA. Fingers crossed.

Mike, thanks for the link. I will be going Canon for all glass. Thanks for all your input.

Best,
Mark.

Russ Campbell

09-20-2007, 02:03 AM

Mike, after chatting to Sharky, we are really looking forward to hearing and seeing more about your RED housing. We will also be investing in Canon glass for the RED. Please can you keep us posted on developments. We should be getting our RED in Feb and definitely want a housing at the same time.

Mark, good luck with the commercial diving cert. You will also need to do a diving first aid course - PADI EFR doesn't cut the mustard apparently, but you do learn all about recompression, intubation, etc. See you hopefully in November.

Mark Thorpe

09-20-2007, 04:05 PM

Russ - there is now in the UK a media diver sanctioned by the HSE commercial course. I've got a buddy signed up to do that together on my return. He's doing more and more with the BEEB in the UK so needs that. Gotta look into it for clarification but it can be run by independent commercial instructors, one of which lives on the south coast where I'll be staying. It also includes a separate medical certification. I was a 'Brick' medic in my early days with the Brit infantry and also with the French mob so medical stuff is pretty much a doddle. Never had any faith, still don't, in anything PADI teaches, after all we all know what the acronym stands for so enough said.

Gradually tying down everything with the people in SA and DC so it looks good at the moment.

Cheers,
Mark.

Ken Corben

09-22-2007, 03:48 PM

Hey Johnny,

I spoke to Mike Hastings. He said no problem building the underwater housing for the 42" plasma monitor for your underwater RED system. The batteries are a little big though :-)

Mark Thorpe

09-22-2007, 04:01 PM

Hey Johnny,

I spoke to Mike Hastings. He said no problem building the underwater housing for the 42" plasma monitor for your underwater RED system. The batteries are a little big though :-)How about surface supply.....:w00t:

Mark Thorpe

09-23-2007, 03:27 PM

As of Wednesday guys, I'm gonna be 'on the road'. I'll catch up with you when I can via these pages.

Best fishes,
Mark.

GATES

09-28-2007, 11:50 AM

Disclosure: I work for Gates Underwater Products

Greetings to all,

This group has been following the development of Red One quite closely with great anticipation of underwater 4K. So you all deserve to hear the news first about DEEP RED, the underwater housing from Gates. You can read official press release here

http://www.gateshousings.com/PR.html

Some things that are not in the press release:

Price: TBD. We will release pricing closer to launch.

Availability: Sometime in 2008. We’ve gone as far as possible without actually having a camera, and this is key to continued development. Physical layout, optics tests, prototyping – all this is yet to come with camera in hand.

Collaboration. Yes, Howard Hall is collaborating on the design. Both Gates and Howard Hall Productions have purchased Red cameras, so we’re not just building housings – we’re ‘up to our eyeballs’ (to quote Howard). As noted in the press release, the design will be ‘no compromises’ which means that, amongst other considerations, DEEP RED will be designed to Howards’ stringent requirements.

What the release does not say is that Bob Cranston will be helping on the back end as well. His expertise in electro-mechanical systems is extensive, and will be quite handy in this area.

Optics. It’s worth expounding on the optics part of the press release. As we frequently say ‘The best camera in the world can’t make up for poor optics’. Well, here at Gates we’ve invested a great deal of time and energy into underwater optics so your images are free of distortion, vignetting, reflections – anything that could be an ‘image killer’.

With this experience Gates is now a leader in underwater HD for clarity and sharpness, in large part from our relationship with Fathom Imaging. As you all know HD is unforgiving to poor optics, so imagine how 4K will look if you put something inferior in front of Red One. Our expertise in this area will serve DEEP RED well as we delve into 4K underwater. “No compromises” is the goal here, too.

Heat. As you all know the Red camera generates heat in 4K mode, and not a trivial amount. Fortunately the aluminum shell of DEEP RED is inherently a great thermal transfer medium and the DEEP RED design will include measures to preclude overheating.

Your help. If you have comments or suggestions into the design of DEEP RED, feel free to make them in this forum.

On this topic I am interested in two specific items:

1) Your choice of camera lens(es) to use with Red One. Our strategy for ports will allow the use of different lenses, but the priority order of support will be based on popular demand.

2) Recording media. Having visited RDCC yesterday it’s clear that there are tradeoffs between using Red Raid and Red Flash (compact flash cards).

Red Raid is a much longer recording time (3+ hours). But the drive consumes energy (and generates heat), and increases the size of the housing shell (perhaps substantially).

Red Flash is much more compact (being affixed to the side of the camera rather than a completely separate unit). It is also more robust, able to withstand heat/shock etc. The housing shell will be smaller. But recording time (today) is very limited: 5 minutes with an 8GB card. 16GB anticipated Q2 2008. This problem goes away in due course as 32, 64 and 128 GB cards are available.

It is possible to provision for both scenarios but at added cost and complexity.

I will consider all reasonable ideas and suggestions, so ‘have at it’.

Cheers,

John

Jason Sturgis

09-28-2007, 08:56 PM

John,
Thank you for that great post! Excellent news that Gates is making a housing for Red. Also very exciting that Howard and Bob will be contributing to the design for Deep Red. They have so much experience and knowledge, you couldn't ask for better input.
OPTICS: I am still reading up on the lense tests and seeing what wisdom current users have to offer. So the short is that I still don't know what the best glass would be for underwater application. So I can't comment on the best port options to work on first.
CF vs RAID: Having not seeing any of the housing designs, I don't know how much extra weight the Red drive would put onto the housing. Is it an extra slice of pizza weight gain or a "Super Size Me" bulge? Personally, I would go for the slimmer housing and wait for the 32, 64 etc CF cards to increase recording time. As you point out, using the CF cards would also help with the heat and power issue.
Thanks again for the post and I look forward to reading up on the evolution of Deep Red.
All the best,
Jason

Ken Corben

09-28-2007, 09:35 PM

As of Wednesday guys, I'm gonna be 'on the road'. I'll catch up with you when I can via these pages.

Best fishes,
Mark.

Mark,

Travel well mate. I look forward to your future updates on what you are up to around the planet.

Sharky

Michael Hastings

09-29-2007, 08:36 AM

John:

It's good to see one of the other players checking in - the more the merrier. Welcome to the Underwater Bubble Blowers.

Mike

P.S. As you many of you know we made our announcement a few days ago in Sharky's "Gibby's RED takes a dive..." thread. I was going to copy the post over here since it is the obvious place for it, but I'll wait another day to avoid stepping on John's announcement.

Mark Thorpe

09-29-2007, 10:57 AM

Welcome John,
Glad to see you made it. Hope the plans are going well.

Regards to Pamela and the Team.

Cheers,
Mark

David Nardini

09-29-2007, 01:40 PM

Your help. If you have comments or suggestions into the design of DEEP RED, feel free to make them in this forum.

On this topic I am interested in two specific items:

1) Your choice of camera lens(es) to use with Red One. Our strategy for ports will allow the use of different lenses, but the priority order of support will be based on popular demand.

2) Recording media. Having visited RDCC yesterday it’s clear that there are tradeoffs between using Red Raid and Red Flash (compact flash cards).

Initial comments :

1) Canon glass via Birger lens mount :

EF-S 10-22/3.5
EF 16-35/2.8 Mkii
EF-S 60/2.8 (macro)
EF 100/2.8 (macro)
& potentially the 10.5mm/2.8G ED DX Fisheye-Nikkor ... (but not sure yet; via Nikon Birger or adapted RED Nikkor mount)

I was wondering if the housing could be kept as small as possible (aka => modular; in line with the RED 'spirit') and the port systems specialised for the lens being utilized ? yes, the diameter of the port may be bigger than usual, but each port would then be matched & housing size could be tailored for RED body, battery & storage device only ? any comments ... (+ve or -ve !)

2) I would add RED Flash Drive to the list (lower power demand than RED Drive, bigger capacity than CF); my guess is that prices for flash drives will decrease faster than larger CF cards availability; a guess ... and happy to be corrected ;-) Either way, it would appear it's the same size as the RED Drive.

Additionally :

What are your plans for LCD monitoring ? Housing the RED unit ?

Integrated battery ? or using a RED Brick ?

Planning on housing electronics driving the RED (if this is possible) or driving the RED more via more traditional housing controls ?

Cheers ...

Johnny Friday

09-29-2007, 01:53 PM

After initial testing with Gibby and Ken i thought i'd throw out there some potential answers to questions I personally had. We shot on 8GB CF cards---which is really nice. A lovely way to shoot and transport data.

Downside: need larger capacity. If memory serves me correct we had just a hair over 4mins on each card and of course only one CF card slot. ---two would be great, but since that is a moot point....I'll move on. I would DEFINATELY incorporate the HDD to my shooting specs underwater. Flash seems too expensive and a couple of HDD's as well as set of 4 16gb CF cards would do the trick in my opinion. I think CF cards have their place as do the 320gb HDD's. Shooting the camera was just awsome. We spent a load of time getting set up. But once all the pieces were in place, we were super happy wiht the results. HOWEVER.....I would much prefer longer record times that the HDD offers as well as AWAITING larger CF cards.

As Ken mentioned in an earlier thread....I kept coming up asking "another card, another card......etc.." No complaining mind you. I just would love to spend another 30-60mins at depth awaiting a another sequence to present itself and add a rebreather to the mix and now you have several hours at depth and the added time and security of nailing your shot on the HDD.

....for what that's worth.
by the way thanks to the team Gibby, Corben and the Kinningers for their boat!:weight_lift:

Michael Hastings

09-29-2007, 07:27 PM

I was wondering if the housing could be kept as small as possible (aka => modular; in line with the RED 'spirit') and the port systems specialised for the lens being utilized ? yes, the diameter of the port may be bigger than usual, but each port would then be matched & housing size could be tailored for RED body, battery & storage device only ? any comments ... (+ve or -ve !)

David: I know this was a reply to GATES' post, but I'm assuming it is also addressed to the design community at large.

I was speaking to Ken Corben today and he asked about the possibility of having the housing long enough to support the longest configurations we might need now with REDDRIVE and REDBRICK capability as the current version does, but then being to able shorten the housing later as CF becomes more feasible. I see no problem with this, estimated cost would be between $500-$1000 conversion fee.

Regarding ports, we have already done this. We are using an off-the-shelf Aquatica port system with an internal diameter just under six inches which allows Ken to use the Canon EF-S 10-22mm, as well as the Arri/Zeiss Ultraprime 8R - which is probably the ultimate underwater lens. This system has 6" and 8" dome ports, flat and macro options, extension rings, etc. - AVAILABLE TODAY - which would let you use pretty much any lens out there - cine or still type. Further, since the frontplate is removable we can pretty easily accommodate other lenses that might exceed that diameter.

The interchangeable frontplate would also allow use of a fully corrected underwater optic such as the one Amphibico used on their F900 housing. (Does anyone know if that is a FATHOM design or one of their own?) That type of optic generally needs to be closely matched to a specific lens so we need to see what shakes out in terms of lens options. With that said, it should also be noted that domes are still the mainstay for professional housings for film and video from Pace, Hydroflex, AquaVideo, etc. - because in fact they work very well.

I Bloom

09-29-2007, 09:05 PM

2) Recording media. Having visited RDCC yesterday it’s clear that there are tradeoffs between using Red Raid and Red Flash (compact flash cards).

Red Raid is a much longer recording time (3+ hours). But the drive consumes energy (and generates heat), and increases the size of the housing shell (perhaps substantially).

Red Flash is much more compact (being affixed to the side of the camera rather than a completely separate unit). It is also more robust, able to withstand heat/shock etc. The housing shell will be smaller. But recording time (today) is very limited: 5 minutes with an 8GB card. 16GB anticipated Q2 2008. This problem goes away in due course as 32, 64 and 128 GB cards are available.

I am certainly not the best person to ask, since I've only done two shoots in open water. But I think it's got to be the red drive or red ram for at least a few years. The capacity of CF is just not there yet. When bigger CF cards come out, bigger drives will also be out. The same RED drive might allow one to forget about changing media, almost for an entire day of diving. Could be a very good thing.

My 2 cents.

Ian

David Nardini

10-01-2007, 01:10 AM

David: I know this was a reply to GATES' post, but I'm assuming it is also addressed to the design community at large.

I was speaking to Ken Corben today and he asked about the possibility of having the housing long enough to support the longest configurations we might need now with REDDRIVE and REDBRICK capability as the current version does, but then being to able shorten the housing later as CF becomes more feasible. I see no problem with this, estimated cost would be between $500-$1000 conversion fee.

Regarding ports, we have already done this. We are using an off-the-shelf Aquatica port system with an internal diameter just under six inches which allows Ken to use the Canon EF-S 10-22mm, as well as the Arri/Zeiss Ultraprime 8R - which is probably the ultimate underwater lens. This system has 6" and 8" dome ports, flat and macro options, extension rings, etc. - AVAILABLE TODAY - which would let you use pretty much any lens out there - cine or still type. Further, since the frontplate is removable we can pretty easily accommodate other lenses that might exceed that diameter.

The interchangeable frontplate would also allow use of a fully corrected underwater optic such as the one Amphibico used on their F900 housing. (Does anyone know if that is a FATHOM design or one of their own?) That type of optic generally needs to be closely matched to a specific lens so we need to see what shakes out in terms of lens options. With that said, it should also be noted that domes are still the mainstay for professional housings for film and video from Pace, Hydroflex, AquaVideo, etc. - because in fact they work very well.

Mike : Absolutely ... comments are for the community at large !

Thanks for the feedback. I'll PM you later in the week ...

As and when you get nearer your final design (I understand that it WILL evolve over time due to feedback, requirements, etc but it would be good to know what are the 'basic/starting point' controls you will provide (in the PRO and non-PRO housings). Focus control ? Aperture control ? What RED controls ?

RED LCD housing : would the external housing for this be such that it is best to dedicate an LCD unit to live in the housing ? or not ? could you share thoughts on this ?

Without having a RED in my hands at the moment, I'd like to get a sense of likely 'heat' issues. I would be very happy with the non-pro version, but the PRO version (being ALU) should be better for keeping things cooler.
Your tests to date involved CF's, and therefore re-surfacing, opening the housing, etc ... and potentially never reaching a 'heat' issue (camera heat generation + drive heat + battery heat ... cannot imagine this lot being a 'cool pack' as a whole !). Perhaps there is an alternative reason for having a tad bigger housing !

Cheers ...

Michael Hastings

10-02-2007, 11:50 AM

Mike : Absolutely ... comments are for the community at large !

Thanks for the feedback. I'll PM you later in the week ...

As and when you get nearer your final design (I understand that it WILL evolve over time due to feedback, requirements, etc but it would be good to know what are the 'basic/starting point' controls you will provide (in the PRO and non-PRO housings). Focus control ? Aperture control ? What RED controls ?

RED LCD housing : would the external housing for this be such that it is best to dedicate an LCD unit to live in the housing ? or not ? could you share thoughts on this ?

Without having a RED in my hands at the moment, I'd like to get a sense of likely 'heat' issues. I would be very happy with the non-pro version, but the PRO version (being ALU) should be better for keeping things cooler.
Your tests to date involved CF's, and therefore re-surfacing, opening the housing, etc ... and potentially never reaching a 'heat' issue (camera heat generation + drive heat + battery heat ... cannot imagine this lot being a 'cool pack' as a whole !). Perhaps there is an alternative reason for having a tad bigger housing !

Cheers ...

David:

A couple of quick comments. I'm building an LCD housing today as Bill Summers was kind enough to loan me his. I will cover it in a later post and ask for some suggestions about closure preferences, but basically I don't think you will need to dedicate an LCD - it will be a pretty quick changeout.

As far as controls, you will definitely have power, start/stop and the two user buttons up at the front left of the camera. Focus and iris will be through control shafts through the housing attached to the Birger mount controls - we should be able to mount them wherever we want. Zoom will be via a simple friction control until we see what RED and/or Birger come up with for motorized zoom (already in the works).

Beyond that, extensive camera setup control is most likely to end up using some sort of remote CCU type interface as we used to do on Betacams, F900, Varicam, etc. but we don't know exactly when that will be available. We can hit any of the buttons on the rear LCD from the top and side but until we know the real functions of those it is hard to know what makes sense - I have mentioned that we will provide 1-3 controls for those buttons as part of the base cost - we consider frame rates, shutter angle, and possible ISO settings as the most important, so would try to implement those. White balance and other settings are really unnecessary with the RAW paradigm and are probably better left to post.

Right now we are leaving a few inches behind the camera for battery and drive options, however in the future we could make an aluminum backplate with pushbutton controls like some of those on Amphibico or Light and Motion. The way RED made the rear buttons means it will be relatively easy to do but would probably mean shortening the housing - as I mentioned in a previous post shortening the housing is a fairly low cost conversion of the longer housings. Again, you really need to think through the raw paradigm - I think waiting for an electronic remote for those functions - if they are even necessary for most people - will be the way to go.

Heat is probably not a big issue with the aluminum housing.

On the PVC it may be an issue (We have experience with the HVX200/firestore combination - which gets very hot - in a PVC housing and we were able to work for an hour or so in the Florida keys without a shutdown - we don't have experience with longer times. We did feel that if necessary we could have used a chemical coldpack.)

The first solution if the RED builds up to much heat in the PVC housing would be to go to the aluminum frontplate and I think this would provide a large percentage of heat transfer as the full aluminum housing (a couple of fluted heat sinks could give added transfer as well).

As far as gears for focus, iris, zoom controls for cine lenses, that will have to be done on a case by case basis and one should expect it to cost several thousand dollars, unless one of the rumored low cost Russian lenses (or if Jim decides to make a RED 10mm) becomes so much of an answer for us that most users would use it. This is one reason the Birger mount and still lenses is such a big deal for us bubble blowers. However, a final thought. Lenses like the Zeiss 8R (the ultimate underwater lens) could probably be handled very well with low cost friction controls if desired because basically you preset focus and with the RED raw capability you don't have to ride iris as much either.

David Nardini

10-03-2007, 12:47 PM

David:

A couple of quick comments. I'm building an LCD housing today as Bill Summers was kind enough to loan me his. I will cover it in a later post and ask for some suggestions about closure preferences, but basically I don't think you will need to dedicate an LCD - it will be a pretty quick changeout.

As far as controls, you will definitely have power, start/stop and the two user buttons up at the front left of the camera. Focus and iris will be through control shafts through the housing attached to the Birger mount controls - we should be able to mount them wherever we want. Zoom will be via a simple friction control until we see what RED and/or Birger come up with for motorized zoom (already in the works).

Beyond that, extensive camera setup control is most likely to end up using some sort of remote CCU type interface as we used to do on Betacams, F900, Varicam, etc. but we don't know exactly when that will be available. We can hit any of the buttons on the rear LCD from the top and side but until we know the real functions of those it is hard to know what makes sense - I have mentioned that we will provide 1-3 controls for those buttons as part of the base cost - we consider frame rates, shutter angle, and possible ISO settings as the most important, so would try to implement those. White balance and other settings are really unnecessary with the RAW paradigm and are probably better left to post.

Right now we are leaving a few inches behind the camera for battery and drive options, however in the future we could make an aluminum backplate with pushbutton controls like some of those on Amphibico or Light and Motion. The way RED made the rear buttons means it will be relatively easy to do but would probably mean shortening the housing - as I mentioned in a previous post shortening the housing is a fairly low cost conversion of the longer housings. Again, you really need to think through the raw paradigm - I think waiting for an electronic remote for those functions - if they are even necessary for most people - will be the way to go.

Heat is probably not a big issue with the aluminum housing.

On the PVC it may be an issue (We have experience with the HVX200/firestore combination - which gets very hot - in a PVC housing and we were able to work for an hour or so in the Florida keys without a shutdown - we don't have experience with longer times. We did feel that if necessary we could have used a chemical coldpack.)

The first solution if the RED builds up to much heat in the PVC housing would be to go to the aluminum frontplate and I think this would provide a large percentage of heat transfer as the full aluminum housing (a couple of fluted heat sinks could give added transfer as well).

As far as gears for focus, iris, zoom controls for cine lenses, that will have to be done on a case by case basis and one should expect it to cost several thousand dollars, unless one of the rumored low cost Russian lenses (or if Jim decides to make a RED 10mm) becomes so much of an answer for us that most users would use it. This is one reason the Birger mount and still lenses is such a big deal for us bubble blowers. However, a final thought. Lenses like the Zeiss 8R (the ultimate underwater lens) could probably be handled very well with low cost friction controls if desired because basically you preset focus and with the RED raw capability you don't have to ride iris as much either.

Mike, thanks for the update.

Good to know the LCD housing is 'taking shape'.

Agreed about the RAW capability, but I would like to think WB can be set (I gather the two buttons at the front are use programmable, so this should not be an issue (I'm thinking of experimenting with colour correcting gels/filters; yes, with 12bit RAW, there's room to play, but helping it along is surely not going to make matters worse).
Once the RED s/w gives us real-time 'levels' feedback (eg : bottom of LCD ?) it should be simpler to keep the data in the correct (sweet) spot !

The Birger mount will make lens control significantly simpler ... so fingers crossed Erik posts some information soon ;-)
With regards to focusing, sure, anything around the 10mm, or less, at 5.6 or above will need little to no focusing.

Agreed about the PVC / ALU options ... let us know turn around time for the ALU housing once you've finalised your design / tooling up. I'm OK with a longer housing to start with pending larger CF or cheaper RAM drives ;-)

I'm looking for a housing for 2 key 2008 trips (Mar/Apr - Thailand) and (Jun/Jul - Red Sea) ...

Cheers,

PS : I'll be sticking to Canon glass ... cannot see the Zeiss output being significantly better (once placed behind a dome, etc) - certainly not a multiple equivalent to it's cost differential !
Oh, and yes, it would be rather nice for RED to give us a 8 or 10mm / 2.8 prime (with close focus ability like the 18-50, which focuses down to a couple of inches ... would be perfect for sticking behind a good quality dome). Then again, maybe the Russians will help us underwater folk out ...

GATES

10-04-2007, 06:01 PM

Thank for all posted information, it's appreciated. To answer some questions:

* What are your plans for LCD monitoring ? Housing the RED unit ?
-- Either the RED LCD in it's own shell or Gates EM43. Both have tradeoffs (size, resolution, etc).

* Integrated battery ? or using a RED Brick ?
-- RED Brick

* Planning on housing electronics driving the RED (if this is possible) or driving the RED more via more traditional housing controls ?
--It will be classic Gates approach with mechanical controls. There are three important notes on this:
1) Electro-mechanical controls are required when using a Canon/Nikon lens with the Birger Mount. This means a control will penetrate the housing and mate with the Birger encoder.
2) Using mechanical controls one might ask how we can use fully manual lenses (such as various primes). Herein lies one of the powerful features of the design from Gates (and with due credit to Howard Hall). I won't delve into the boring details, but suffice to say that the zoom/iris/focus controls will remain in the same location on the housing -- at your fingertips -- regardless of lens employed. You won't have to re-learn or reach for a control to change these functions with different lenses.
3) Lastly, Howard and I are in agreement that the user will not require access to the rear panel controls inside the housing. At RDCC we learned that functions accessed on the rear are setup in nature and not necessary to change underwater. We're not even convinced you will need to see the display as salient information is provided on the LCD. Of course this could change as RDCC is constantly updating the software, so stay tuned.

Thanks again for the comments. Keep 'em coming.

Cheers,

John

Michael Hastings

10-05-2007, 07:37 AM

I won't delve into the boring details, but suffice to say that the zoom/iris/focus controls will remain in the same location on the housing -- at your fingertips -- regardless of lens employed. You won't have to re-learn or reach for a control to change these functions with different lenses.

Ditto, on that. Re: the details: Basically - at least for us - this involves use of motor drives for those functions. Since 1985 we've built housings for 14 different broadcast cameras from from DXC3000s and Betacams, to the Varicam and F900 - all using Canon or Fujinon lenses with built-in motors for iris and zoom and stock add-on motors for focus. These are all driven via pots or servo controls via a penetrating shaft. Therefore I have almost no experience with lens gears, hence my comment in the earlier post that mechanical gear drives could be done but expect to pay thousands. Since all of the cine primes have built in gear teeth on the iris and focus, the use of small geared motors to drive these seems like the way to go. (I've always wondered why the housings for 35mm Arris and such had manual gears.) As far as specifics, I'm just waiting a little bit to see what Birger ends up with for their zoom control (which will be this kind of motor with a gear on the lens, which will have some method of physically attaching to the camera. Remember iris and focus are driven by the internal motors, but zoom is physical rotating of the zoom ring). It would be nice to be able to standardize on a physical mount like Birger's so that it could be used on either type of lens. This will be a separate item, so could be used whether or not you get the Birger Canon EOS or Nikon mount. If this doesn't work out we will build our own - we're already doing some preliminaries on this for the Zeiss 8R.

The same control shaft penetrations used for the Birger encoders would be used for the switches/pot/servo for the cine lenses. You would just put in a small box for the drives instead of the birger encoders - hence the same control positions on the housing for either Birger or cines.

Since they are pretty smalll, we should be able to drive these motors through the DC outputs on the camera.

WesG

10-09-2007, 06:38 PM

I've been digging around the net but without any luck and thought this group might have some tips.

I'm going to be building a housing for my RED but want to be able to feed out vision from the camera as it is shooting underwater (only shallow water use like being in a pool).

I need some sort of HD-SDI or HDMI waterproof plug and cable connector that could be glassed into the housing.
I've seen some Sony Z1 housings that have a waterproof feed point but I'm not sure if it's DV, HDV, SDI or HDMI.

Any advice, experience or tips?????

Thanks!

SalaTar

10-09-2007, 06:58 PM

BK-7 optical glass.
Subcon power & control.
D.G. Obrien single mode fiber optics.

GATES

10-10-2007, 07:28 AM

I need some sort of HD-SDI or HDMI waterproof plug and cable connector that could be glassed into the housing.
I've seen some Sony Z1 housings that have a waterproof feed point but I'm not sure if it's DV, HDV, SDI or HDMI.

Hello Nalu,

We've successfully transmitted HD-SDI out of the Gates XL H1 housing over 100 feet the surface. This feature is planned for DEEP RED as an option.

J-

WesG

10-10-2007, 02:58 PM

Hello Nalu,

We've successfully transmitted HD-SDI out of the Gates XL H1 housing over 100 feet the surface. This feature is planned for DEEP RED as an option.

J-

That's great. Could you point me the right direction for parts or you don't sell the parts yourself???

:wink:

GATES

10-11-2007, 11:44 AM

In this case we don't sell the parts individually. It's very much a custom installation for a housing/camera combination. Further, some of the components are made for Gates specifically to support the very high data rates of HD-SDI.

J-

Michael Hastings

10-11-2007, 12:09 PM

That's great. Could you point me the right direction for parts or you don't sell the parts yourself???

:wink:

Gates and I are manufacturers ourselves so a little hesitant to help you design your own housing, but with that said Ikelite makes a compression cable seal for 1/4" cable and, depending on your depth needs and if you are careful to avoid cutting the cable, you can use it with a good quality HD-SDI rated RG-59 type cable.

Michael Hastings

10-11-2007, 01:00 PM

When Gates posted his info I said that I would copy this post from the Gibby's RED takes a dive...Underwater RED 4K thread after a day or two and then I forgot. If you want to see some pictures, videos, impressions, etc. check out that thread.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4908

Since the original announcement 2 weeks ago we have been moving forward and now have the LCD case proto'd, just waiting for the connector pinout from RED, and the special size aluminum is on its way, and are moving forward on Sharky's and a couple others that have already been ordered, for delivery in about a month.

Here's the announcement post:

Anyway, thanks to Ken who has been making exceptional efforts to get the RED in the water, and to Gibby for trusting us with #8, and everybody else on the team.

I think Ken has been hesitant to detail things before talking to me but I will try to lay things out for you, he has pictures too, which I hereby give my permission to post if he was waiting for that.

First, I am amazed at the images they achieved, but I will also tell you that they are nowhere near what the RED is capable of simply because they were forced by time constraints to use the 18-50 zoom. It is an excellent lens, but nowhere near as wide as we would normally use underwater. The 18 gives a little over 70 degrees angle of view - where we are used to shooting at about 105 degrees with Varicams, F900s, better HDV cameras, etc.. The equivalent lens would be a 10mm on the RED. The main difference is that everything would appear much clearer since they would be shooting at almost half the distance - a huge difference underwater.

The housing was actually setup for the 10-22 Canon EF-S lens on the Birger EOS mount. We had the physical prototype last week but Erik at Birger is doing some final tweaks and is about another week or so from having a working proto for us to use in the housing.

A lot of the questions have to do with ports and lenses and rightly so since it is all about the optics, and it has never been more so given the new paradigm of shooting RAW with RED. With that in mind we are making the housings with total flexibility in terms of ports and lens adaptability. The standard interchangeable port system we are using is very flexible, but the second part is that the front plate is removable so even if someone comes up with a funky lens setup that we can't accommodate with the standard ports we can easily, and fairly inexpensively, make a new front plate to specifically accommodate that lens. For instance, I doubt if there is much point to a Fathom type optic since we have interchangeable lenses and excellent superwide choices from Canon, Zeiss, etc. (the Fathom has been more about converting fixed mount lenses) but it would be pretty easy to accommodate simply with a different front plate.

Initially we are using a series of interchangeable ports from Aquatica. The front plate has the mating part for the Aquatica screw type ports. We are using the screw type because it provides a much larger hole diameter than any of the off the shelf bayonet style. The large diameter is necessary to accommodate the larger cine style lenses and particularly the Zeiss Ultraprime 8R which is probably the ultimate underwater prime lens (price: US$25,000). We think most will use the EF-S 10-22 (or the nikon equivalent) on the Birger mount, but we wanted to make sure that everyone could also easily use the 8R for super high quality projects. Both six inch and 8 inch domes are available as well as extension rings, macro ports, etc. which allow use of virtually any lens I have seen.

Currently the domes are acrylic, and should be excellent for most users. (The vast majority of high end underwater motion pictures and stills that you have ever seen were shot through acrylic domes - including IMAX ( I know because I have built replacement domes for some of them.) However, Aquatica recently introduced a 9" glass dome for their bayonet style which should be adaptable to the screw mount. I also have other sources for 8" and 6" glass domes as well if necessary.

Re: housing pricing and specs. Two things: 1) Depth rating is primarily determined by the front plate/port. Either PVC or Aluminum body can do 300 feet or more. You wackos that are pushing 400 or more need the aluminum. 2) Pricing is sort of a la carte. Partly because many users will be using it in the surf line and/or less than 130 feet and partly because we don't know the exact configuration of things like the RED drive, the cost of LCD and power cables, etc.

The housings, whether aluminum or pvc will be 9" OD and our prototype was about 21.5" long plus port with a displacement of about 50 lbs. (displacement is the amount it has to weigh to be neutral in the water. It is the same for aluminum or pvc but the pvc needs a 12 pound weight to be neutral, the aluminum just 3 or 4. (If you are using lights they would offset the need for weights.)

Given the shape of the camera and the position of the viewfinder connectors there is no size advantage to a rectangular shaped housing. If Ken posts pictures the one straight on seems to show a lot of space around it but it is a lens/perspective thing - it is actually pretty tight (and the pvc has about .20 extra on the ID.

Pricing: Tentatively, with the usual disclaimers: $3999 will get you the PVC body with acrylic front and back plate, Aquatica screw type interchangeable port mount with 6" diameter dome standard. We rate this configuration to 175 feet. Thicker acrylic or aluminum frontplate give optional greater depths (see below for price and rating for other plates.)

Standard controls are Power, trigger, and magic focus (i.e. the two small buttons on the front left of the camera). It will be set up to use the Birger mount with control shafts to the Birger focus and iris controls. We may end up with an option for incorporating separate birger controls/cables into the housing so they are semipermanent and you don't have to use the regular knobs that comes with the control. (est. 300-400 each control for the encoder and cable). We will include a simple friction type, works but not super slick control for zoom on the 10-22 canon. Smoother control will be available once we get to evaluate the Birger and other zoom motors.

We will probably include one or two controls on either housing for the menu buttons on the rear LCD but it has not been determined what of those will be possible/desired. The aluminum housing will have a flat on the top over the LCD control area and allow more functions to be accessed, up to the point where the spaghetti factor takes over. We feel fairly confident that at some not too distant point, RED will make or allow much more sophisticated camera remote control through the USB interfaces.

However, it is important to remember that we will be shooting RAW so most of the adjustment controls you have been used to in the past will not be used - i.e. white balance, gamma/knee, picture profiles and the like. This will be more to allow shutter angle, iso, shutter speed, etc. to be changed underwater.

The aluminum body housing will be $6200 with the same functions and the same acrylic plates depth rated to 175ft. Add $900 for aluminum frontplate which jumps you to 250 foot depth rating, and if you add $150 additional for a 1.25" backplate increase depth rating to 300+ feet (I will work the numbers further - don't know the real rating of the dome ports. With the proper ports and an aluminum backplate, 1000 foot or greater ratings would be possible - again with the same main body housing. With the same endplates the PVC housing would have the same depth ratings, up to 300 feet. Much beyond 300, prudence would dictate using the aluminum body even though the PVC should be able to go much deeper as well.

The camera mounts on a slide in tray - currently either front or back load depending on user preference and lens used (wouldn't want to scratch a $25000 Zeiss 8r sliding it in from the back and hitting a control). We will provide a mount at the rear of the camera tray for the RED LCD. It is so slim that it adds almost no additional length even if you choose to use the LCD externally instead. We will also offer an external LCD housing for the RED LCD priced at approx. $999 (it is being prototyped now) plus connectors/cable (to be determined - could be from $300-700 more.)

In keeping with the RED tradition of naming prototypes after cities we named it - what else? - ATLANTIS. While our normal trademark color is yellow - we have made a special exception and the PVC housing will be RED. The aluminum will be the standard Navy spec Black hardcoat that we do on all of our broadcast housings - with undetermined label colors. We can provide a white or yellow material to put over the black hardcoat for those that feel it necessary to avoid heat buildup.

REDDrives were not available but there is room behind the camera for the drive if we use a separate battery (about $400) along the left side of the housing. If both battery and drive need to go behind the camera it would add about 2" to the length.

I'm sure I've forgotten something important but we can add to it as we go along. Just wanted people to get some ball parks. That is: $3999 for PVC Surf/dive to 175 ft. housing. $7100 for aluminum with aluminum frontplate base rated to 250 with low cost upgrade to over 300 feet.

Add ~$400 for special battery. Add $1500 or so for external LCD (monitor not included - take your red LCD in and out or buy a second - it is the best you can get for anywhere near the size, clarity and money.), and maybe $600-$800 for permanent mounted focus/iris encoders/cables.

WesG

10-11-2007, 04:12 PM

Gates and I are manufacturers ourselves so a little hesitant to help you design your own housing, but with that said Ikelite makes a compression cable seal for 1/4" cable and, depending on your depth needs and if you are careful to avoid cutting the cable, you can use it with a good quality HD-SDI rated RG-59 type cable.

Totally understand and thanks for the tip. I'll be building a one off shallow water housing and then hoping once the camera is earning some dollars for me I can look to purchase one of your professional rigs.
cheers

chuck colburn

10-11-2007, 04:24 PM

Although I think one would be crazy to put their RED in a home built housing, (I would do it but then I'm nuts) here are some domes that MIGHT work.

http://www.surplusshed.com/search.cfm

Type in domes in the search box.

There are more under misc.

Mark Thorpe

10-11-2007, 04:50 PM

Personally I cringe at the thought of a non professional construction for an underwater housing. What would the heartache be if one floods the camera / housing due to construction errors? Let the pro's do their work and let them protect (hopefully) your investment with their knowledge.

Just my 2c
Cheers,
Mark.

WesG

10-12-2007, 03:22 AM

Fear not CamDiver it's a professional job for my builder who's built housings for me before - he's a gun. Not made rated for 300ft but more for shallow water work.

Thanks for the tip Chuck but I can't find anything like I need there - if you want "1920's Swiss Army Snow Goggles" though it's the place.

Mark Thorpe

10-12-2007, 04:29 AM

nalu, kudos for going with your builder. Best of luck, be sure to let us know how it goes.

Cheers,
Mark.

Michael Hastings

10-12-2007, 10:48 AM

Pawel Achtel posted an announcement about his Cineport in another thread called Red is Going Under...

In order to try to keep this thread as complete as possible I have copied this response here - and will also put the in-depth response here later this weekend.

Mike

Pawel:

Welcome to the party. The only thing you said that I totally agree with is that for closeups with longer focal length lenses it is not hard to achieve good results with a flat port.

From your website description it does not appear that you have any sort of aspheric or multi element design - it appears to simply be a slice of a 6" radius/12" diameter dome. That is fine, but be honest about the tradeoffs you are making.

I will post an in depth response and explanation of the issues later this weekend because it will take some time and right now I need to finish a housing for the Harbor Branch Oceanographic Institute.

In the meantime it would useful for you to confirm:

1) the optical principle of your port, 2) the position i.e. distance from the surface of the dome that you will be placing the nodal point of the camera lens, 3) how you will compensate for differing lengths of different lenses and 4) explain how the images obtained by all of the 35mm major motion pictures with underwater shots, Imax movies, thousands of even higher resolution stills (since SLR size is substantially larger and higher resolution than RED 4K) from Stephen Frink, Rick Frehsee (RIP - who was a personal friend who gave me a very rare copy McNeil's book), Chris Newbert and many others - seem to be very sharp, yet all were shot with six and 8" domes, mostly acrylic (and many by Aquatica).
__________________
Red One, EVF, LCD, Basic Prod. Pack, Red CF, 2x Red Drives, Birger Canon mount+ff, Canon 10-22mm, 24-70mm f/2.8 L, 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS. Zeiss PL avail. RED#206 Available for rent in November. Underwater housing available now. SAVE THE SHARKS.

Michael Hastings

10-13-2007, 04:39 PM

First, before getting into the actual optics, this Cineport is based on the Seacam thread/bayonet mount which has an opening of about 4 inches which would be okay for still lenses like the Canon 10-22 but means you simply couldn't use the larger cine lenses, like the Zeiss 8R, which are physically too large to fit into the port. This is why we chose to start with the older screw type aquatica mount as it has almost a 6" hole which lets us use the 8R, most other cine lenses, as well as still lenses like the Canon 10-22. IMHO this size limitation of the cineport would be a major deal killer right from the start.

Second:

Since the claim is for 99.7% it means that both sides of the dome have to have the best of the best in multi coating If coating is required on the outside surface I wonder how it will hold up in salt water.

AR and anti-scratch coatings are available on Aquatica's 9" glass megadome. Chuck if you could also chime in on how much loss -in F stops - would worst case 90% transmission equal, as we generally haven't seen that as a huge problem in the past, even with acrylic ports, and should be even less so with high sensitivity REDs. (One of the big questions we have had is best way to do neutral density, because we know we will need it.)

As a practical point regarding his superduper, only a few places can do it coating, - although I often hear claims of superior this and that - the truth is all underwater manufacturers are microbusinesses and if something is available to one it is probably available to all. There are no Sony's or Jim Jannard billionaires in the dive industry. (Standard joke goes: Q: How do you make a small fortune in the dive industry? A. Start with a big one.)

One of the main things Pawel is talking about is one of the basics of dome ports - they all (including his cineport) create a curved image. In other words the camera sees a curved world kind of like one of those curved trade show displays (or an Imax screen) where the center is at a greater distance than the edges to a plane going through the front of the lens. The center of the trade show display would be at say 10 feet but the edges would be at 8 feet, so if you have a lens that is designed to focus on a flat field - a tele lens (say 135mm) at a large aperture (f2.8) and focused at 10 feet, the edges would be out of focus.

His point is that with the larger radius/smaller curvature of the Cineport this curvature is less. The reason this isn't a big deal is that underwater you are trying to use as wide a lens as possible (and as you will see in a minute the whole reason for dome ports is for wide angle lenses). The depth of field of wide angle lenses is so great that it is all in focus anyway.

You can check depth of field calculations at:
http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/guides/dof/hyperfocal2.html
I used the calculations for the Nikon D2x because it has the same size sensor, with 12 MP and 5.5micron photosites - as the RED.

You will see that for an 8mm lens, even at f2.8, subjects between 1.8 ft to infinity are all in focus. At f5.6 everything from 11 inches to infinity is in focus, at f8 8" to infinity, and even more for higher f-stops. The numbers are very similar for the 10mm. So you can see that the curved field isn't a problem with the Superwides we are likely to use.

It is true that the curvature is less with the larger radius of the Cineport, which might be more of an issue if we were stuck with say the 18-50 RED zoom as our widest lens, but in fact we have excellent superwides available and at reasonable cost (the Canon 10 is only $800). There are other tradeoffs with the cineport that he isn't telling you about and that is the point of this:

Underwater optics 101

First of all, any diver knows that a flat port (i.e. his dive mask) creates a 25% magnification so with a camera your 10mm becomes a 12.5mm - not the direction we want to go. The first effect of a dome port is it eliminates this magnification. Underwater this is a major deal and one reason why we use domes even on inexpensive SD camcorders where the other optical correction isn't as important.

I have posted an image where you can see the difference in how light rays strike the lens through a flat or dome port. As you can see with the flat port the light rays get refracted and converge (focus) at different places depending on how far off axis the ray comes in. In addition, since different colors get refracted differently you get chromatic aberrations as well. The situation gets worse the wider angle the lens. Hence, for macro shots with longer tele lenses we use a flat port. With wide angles we start to look for corrective solutions - generally the most practical solution is the dome port. (The other big solution is the Ivanoff corrector - subject for U/W optics 201 if we ever get there - suffice to say it is more complex, substantially more expensive and has to be fitted to the particular lens - probably only a practical option for us if RED or the Russians come up with a super high quality, low cost, superwide 10mm or less.)

If you look at the diagram with the dome port you see that all of the light rays come straight through the port (more correctly: perpendicular to the tangent of the dome) so don't get distorted AS LONG AS THE FIRST ELEMENT OF THE LENS IS AT THE CENTER POINT OF THE DOME. This is the part Pawel is not telling you about the Cineport. To illustrate: for the most common 3" radius (6" dia) dome the lens needs to be 3" behind the dome for a 4"R it has to be 4" behind, etc. and to use a full dome the domes get physically huge if you go much larger. (The largest common sizes are 8 or 9"). You can use a slice of the dome but for the 105 or more degree angle we want to use you can't slice it much UNLESS YOU WANT TO CHEAT BY MOVING THE LENS FORWARD INTO THE DOME. This allows you to use a smaller slice of dome, but your light rays no longer converge on the proper point - NOW YOU GET ABERRATIONS AT THE FIRST ELEMENT OF THE LENS and THIS IS THE TRADEOFF IN THE CINEPORT. Without getting into virtual images yet, his spec:

For object distance 5m, the focusing distance is 771mm.

suggests a radius of 10" or more. (I know there are some things that could alter this, but optical calculations give me a headache too, and it is pretty close for illustrative purposes.) This means the lens would have to be 10" behind the port to converge properly. Obviously he is not doing this since, with a 100+ degree lens in an 8" diameter housing, if the lens were inset that much, half of your picture would be the inside of the housing.

The way he deals with this is to use a very small "slice" (see the line across the dome of my second picture) and moves the lens very close - ACCEPTING THE ABERRATIONS THAT CREATES. Why do this? It has to do with the focus shift/virtual image that the dome creates.

The idea of virtual image tends to confuse people but the basic idea is that when the dome contacts water it becomes a negative diopter lens so to the camera it appears that the whole world has been compressed to within 3x the radius of the dome in front of the dome. In other words focus has shifted thus:

an object actually 4 feet in front of the dome appears to the camera to be at:
9" in front of the dome with a 4" radius dome
14" in front of the dome with a 10" radius dome

an object actually at infinity in front of the dome (or call it 100 feet for practical purposes) appears to the camera to be at:

12" in front of the dome with a 4" radius dome
30" in front of the dome with a 10" radius dome

The easiest thing to remember is that infinity is always 3 times the radius in front of the dome and everything else is progressively closer. So if your lens can't focus down to that 3R distance everything would be out of focus.

Remember that you add in the distance the lens is behind the dome to get the focus distance, so for example with our 8"/4" radius dome:

an object at 4' appears to camera 9" in front of the dome + 4 inches = 13" focus setting on lens.

an object at infinity (or 100ft. practical) appears to camera 12" in front of + 4" or 16" focus setting.

with pavels 20"/10" radius dome:

Remember that you add in the distance the lens is behind, but in this case it is less than full radius probably about 4".

an object at 4' appears to camera 14" in front of the dome + 4 inches = 18" focus setting on lens.

an object at infinity (or 100ft. practical) appears to camera 30" in front of dome + 4" or 34" focus setting.

It isn't critical whether I have guessed right as far as Pawel's distance behind his dome because I agree with him that he has achieved focus distances that are "well within most lenses close focus capability".

ADMITTED: The ADVANTAGE OF PAWEL'S LENS IS THAT ALMOST ALL LENSES CAN ACHIEVE ACCEPTABLE FOCUS WITHOUT DIOPTERS OR SHIMS.

The Zeiss 8R (probably the ultimate underwater lens right now) focuses to 12". So wide open at f2.8 it would give focus from 1.9' to infinity; at f8 1' to infinity; at f11 9" to infinity, so still very workable with an 8" dome even without diopter or shim.

But here is my problem with it, THERE IS NO WAY TO GET RID OF THE ABERRATIONS FROM MOVING THE LENS FORWARD IN THE DOME, yet with the smaller dome we can maintain the proper placement AND WE CAN PERFECTLY COMPENSATE FOR REFOCUSING VIA A SIMPLE SHIM of a known value.

This is why we have elected to use a full dome WITH PROPER PLACEMENT. (For now - nothing stops us from using a larger radius slice in the future - lower curves are actually easier to get made and it would simply be a change in port - you could go from one to the other. IMHO the best use of this type of large radius slice would be for split water shots - but that's another story.)

10K character limit so - THE END

Ken Corben

10-13-2007, 05:01 PM

Mike,

The previous post took at least 45 minutes away from finishing the RED pro housing - priorities buddy :-)

Well done - thanks for the optics 101 post. I received a bit of email traffic query on this one.

Sharky

Mark Thorpe

10-13-2007, 11:17 PM

Ken,
You told me once to shout out amongst the rafters about that which I could offer the world. I understood that and shouted, I was heard. Hope you got that mail too.......if not no worries. Last time I need to write if that is the issue. The world offers more than commiserations on a chat board.

Best,
Mark.

Mark Thorpe

10-28-2007, 03:17 AM

Just thought I would share this. Posted on 'Off Topic" too but seeing as it relates to the Bubble Blowers in general thought I'd steer you.

Cheers,
Mark.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5522

Michael Hastings

10-28-2007, 06:14 AM

Congratulations Mark - it'll be 4K next year!

Ken Corben

10-28-2007, 07:16 PM

Mark,

Congrats - very impressive. Look forward to seeing your 4K RED version next year.

Sharky

Russ Campbell

10-29-2007, 01:23 AM

Congratulations Mark. Looking forward to seeing you out here in South Africa. Lots of 4k possibilities here.

Russ and Cindy

Michael Hastings

10-29-2007, 06:18 AM

DEMA (Dive Equipment & Marketing Association) show is this week in Orlando Oct. 31. Nov 3 (Wednesday to Saturday)

We were supposed to have a shoot this week, so didn't reserve a booth but RED delays changed that so I will be sharing some space at Booth 1083.

Ken (sharkguy) is supposed to be sending me the proto Red U/W housing that he has been using in the past month so you can see it there (or in the new products showcase if we can get a space.

I'll be at the Ocean Realm Society & Journal: Booth 1083
or roaming the isles. (going to try to finalize who's glass dome we want to use) You can also contact me on my cell at 954 937 6600.

Also, another of my customers is doing some cool 3D underwater stuff they did with two Canon HV-20s and they have a booth where they will be showing it.

Jacoby Group 594

There are some really interesting things happen with 3D - Texas Instruments is using their DLP and LCD technology to create really stunning polarized type 3d on the new big screen TVs from Samsung and Mitsubishi. They have made it very simple/plug and play - and very cost effective.

Gates will be there too so I'm sure you can quiz them about their red system too.
Gates Underwater Products, Inc. booth 1367

I know they are the competition but reduser is all about the info.

Gisle K. Sverdrup

10-31-2007, 10:06 AM

Hi all!
I have been a "lurker" on this forum for about six months, but I am approaching the final decision whereas to buy the red and house it, and I have a few questions to the info already posted. For me the most important thing in a housing is the optics (quality and versaility). Besides that durability, ergonomics and price of the system.
As far as I can see (correct me if I´m wrong) there seems to be two serious housing manufacturers here on the forum, Aquavideo and Gates.
To summarize my impressions of these two (and I know it´s DEMA today and there will surely be updates in the days to come):
Optics:
Aquavideo have stated that they will use Aquatica still ports for their red housing. The Aquatica optics should transmit high enough resolution for red and allows for a number of different setups.
Gates have their own optics but these have to my knowledge only been used at resolutions up to HD.
Durability:
Aquavideo has two materials to choose from. The alu version will probably be sufficient for hard work over a long time period.
Gates are well known for their "bulletproof design".
Ergonomics:
Don´t know the specs from Aquavideo here, other than they will use an interface based on the Birger mount for lens operation.
Gates have teamed up with Howard Hall, perhaps the most well known UW cameraman out there, so the ergonomics should be excellent.
Price:
Aquavideo (alu) housing with everything (excluding ports) is around US$10 000.
Gates have yet to publish any pricing info.

So with the current information available, Aquavideo seems to be the better option.
I would like to get more info from Aquavideo re ergonomics
I would also like to get more info from Gates re optics, ergonomisc, price.

Another thing I´m also wondering is if ther is a possibility to get different port systems adapted to these housings? There are a number of high quality optics for stills out there (eg Nexus, Subal, Seacam etc) and it would be nice to be able to any one of these lineups (and stick with it). I must say I´d like the Nexus lineup myself.

Thanks for any feedback!
Btw, congrats on the great result Mark!!

Gisle K. Sverdrup, Norway

eclipse

10-31-2007, 05:41 PM

just for refrence check out www.tide-line.com see what you think.
ps thanks for all the great info

Mark Thorpe

11-02-2007, 01:11 AM

Very nice indeed. Have emailed.

Mark Thorpe

11-06-2007, 11:18 AM

Latest is online.....The Majesty of Muck, shot with the Z1.

www.camdiver.blogspot.com

Cheers,
Mark.

David Nardini

11-16-2007, 06:01 AM

Michael Hastings

11-16-2007, 07:26 AM

Hello all,

A fast 11-16 mm / 2.8 lens option (Nikkor or Canon mount) announced :

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0711/07111601tokina116.asp

Close focus ability is not ideal (30cm); might need to shim it out to compensate with domes ?
Clearly, no indication of quality, but will be brighter to use than the Canon 10-20.

Time will tell ... :biggrin:

Cheers

It would be nice to have that 2.8 aperture. We will have to see how it holds up with sharpness and CA.

Shimming only works with one focal length - i.e. you would have to set it for the wide side but couldn't use the zoom. A good achromatic diopter would let you use the zoom as well.

I wish Canon would make a really good 10 mm or wider prime (like a scaled down version of the 14mm for aps-c)

David Nardini

11-16-2007, 12:19 PM

I wish Canon would make a really good 10 mm or wider prime (like a scaled down version of the 14mm for aps-c)

Hi Mike,

Sure ... maybe one day ... a prime 10mm / 2.8 would be nice eh ! (without the Zeiss silly prices)

Any news or tests results you folk have done using the Birger mount ? Gibby ?

Perhaps a silly question BUT ... have you folk tried a x0.6 wide angle adapter on the 18-50 RED lens ? The lens has such close focus capability, I was wondering if by the time it's behind a dome, one would really notice the effects of a x0.6 (or similar factor to get us close to 90 degrees FOV) ?
At the 50mm end, what is the reproduction ratio of the RED 18-50 / could it be used for close-up material ? What's the front filter size ?
Essentially, wondering if the 18-50 with a 'flip in 0.6' (registered properly) would cut it ... then one would have a single lens for w/a and c/u in the one package ? thoughts ?

In terms of catering for optics ... what are you shipping with your housing at the moment ?

We are rapidly approaching the Xmas period, and by Jan 2008 I have commit to some sort of 90 degree capable optics ... with the continued silence from Birger I'm forced to have a re-think (Hmmm - very disappointing)

Ken Corben

11-17-2007, 11:52 AM

Hi Guys,

Been way busy sorry for the delay in updating my UW testing and solutions. Over the past 6+ months we all have had a great debate on the lens selection for underwater applications with the RED ONE camera. The input has been tremendous.

After recently shooting with the Arri Ultra 8R underwater I have been converted. I have taken the plunge and decided to purchase the Arri 8R ($29K) to be used as my first lens of choice for underwater work. CFWA is what the majority of my UW shooting entails. I have a shooting assignment next year in extremely challenging conditions - big fast animal/minimal viz/cold water/strong currents etc. This lens is absolutely phenomenal for this application as well as everything else from blue whales to polecam to caves IMHO.

I am also thinking that in 4K I have the option to magnify, pan and scan to obtain HDTV images of acceptable quality if the lens is to wide on some shots. Yes I know, the amount of water is increased between the lens and subject if not shot CFWA but who wants to get that cloe to an Architeuthis anyway?

Mike Hastings of Aquavideo is designing my RED pro housing around this lens utilizing his quick change multiple optical port solution. This still enables me to use Canon glass once the option becomes available for compact wide zooms and macro. I gotta' say though, the RED 18-50 is still a great option for a zoom UW for medium focal range. Worked great on the first UW 4K footage Gibby and I shot in September.

And yes, my 8R lens will be available to rent for fellow RED UW shooters. Industry standard rates and commission.

Sharky

http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/ultra_prime_r8/ultra_prime_r8.htm

Ken Corben

11-17-2007, 01:15 PM

Here's something fun we did with the 8R. The format is 60 FPS 4K 2:1 (just kidding about the 60 FPS). The mask is used to visualize the unique aspect ratio the footage will be projected in after post.

And please do not EVEN comment on resolution or ask to see the footage. This is just a frame grab from the .5K QT movie from the original .r3d 4K file.

Mark Thorpe

11-19-2007, 05:29 AM

Now thats a serious lens mate.....good luck with it.

David Nardini

11-19-2007, 05:56 AM

I gotta' say though, the RED 18-50 is still a great option for a zoom UW for medium focal range. Worked great on the first UW 4K footage Gibby and I shot in September.

Gents,

Could somebody post a few details for this lens ... PLEASE ???

Is the hood integrated (built in or screw on) ?
Thread at the front ? and where (on the lens or on the hood) ?
What is the close focus distance at 18mm ?
What is the close focus distance at 50mm ?

Cheers ...

Ken Corben

11-19-2007, 09:22 AM

Gents,

Could somebody post a few details for this lens ... PLEASE ???

Is the hood integrated (built in or screw on) ?
Thread at the front ? and where (on the lens or on the hood) ?
What is the close focus distance at 18mm ?
What is the close focus distance at 50mm ?

Cheers ...

Hood is removeable.

Thread is on the lens for ND's - Gibby has an entire set he uses. Don't recall if it is 85mm or ?

The math on a 6" dome is to preset the lens to 13.75" so I set it at a hair under 14" to obtain hyperfocal focus from the front of dome to infinity underwater (see the test footage I posted on reduser where the kelp touched the dome and is apparently in focus in 1K).

Exact min focus for the lens out of water is a technical question for Gibby or other lens owners don't have that info.

Disclaimer: This math is from memory and may be slightly or technically imperfect but the focus setting worked brilliantly at 18mm underwater.

Sharky

Jason Sturgis

11-19-2007, 11:54 AM

Like Mark said, that is a serious lens! That is definitely the Aston Martin of underwater glass options, congratulations on the purchase. It would be great to see some of your shots you get from it. And thanks for posting that frame grab- very cool stuff.

Michael Hastings

11-19-2007, 08:26 PM

Hi Mike,

Sure ... maybe one day ... a prime 10mm / 2.8 would be nice eh ! (without the Zeiss silly prices)

Any news or tests results you folk have done using the Birger mount ? Gibby ?

We are rapidly approaching the Xmas period, and by Jan 2008 I have commit to some sort of 90 degree capable optics ... with the continued silence from Birger I'm forced to have a re-think (Hmmm - very disappointing)

I have been a close follower of the Birger mount option for many months because it is a huge deal for us in the underwater world to have the low cost, high quality lens options as well as the electronic control it offers for focus and iris. I speak to Erik regularly but infrequently as I try not to bug them too much. I know a lot of people are wondering what happened to Erik as he hadn't posted in a while.

I suspected that the changes to the RED mount and shipping delays were either causing changes/delays on the Birger mount or at least causing Birger to hold off finalizing their product until things were solidified at RED and RED was closer to delivering cameras again. (Remember us third party accessory manufacturers don't really get to sell our stuff until the cameras are sold. During these production holds we still have to make a living so have to keep working with our existing customer base.)

I spoke to Erik on Friday, and he confirmed that they had to make a few changes to the mechanical parts, but he thought they were essentially on track to be able to ship the first production units about the time RED ONE shipments resume or shortly thereafter. He felt pretty confident that he would have a prepro unit available for the LART tests (December 2)

I know some of my underwater customers have been getting nervous and wondering if it was ever going to happen and should they look at other options. I don't have a lot of hard facts, but I have been doing short run and custom manufacturing for 25 years and have developed a pretty good feel for these things, and I have talked to Erik enough to feel pretty strongly that he is on top of the situation, knows what he is doing and will be getting people these mounts very quickly after RED comes out of the production hold. So my recommendation is: "hold tight and soon we are going to see some pretty amazing and cost effective capability"

PS hey we've hit 500 posts-not bad for a bunch of bubble blowers. I nominate mark (since he started it) to go through all of them and distill it into a coherent, organized knowledge base. :) :)