Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

[Mark Thorpe]

Great News - plus I broke 500!!

[Russ Campbell]

Thanks for the update Mike. I would love to buy the Arri 8R, but the Birger mount and Canon lenses are more within our budget. Second Mark to make a synopsis of all the important stuff.:w00t:

[Gisle K. Sverdrup]

Congrats on a great piece of glass, Ken! Hope to see some 4k stills to better evaluate the quality you´re getting. :)

Does anyone know anything about differing port mounts on the housings (gates, aquavideo)? Would it be possible to make a mount for say nexus ports?

I have recently joined the red soon-to-be-owners, but sadly I won´t get mine until may/june. Until then it´s great to have a forum like this, where a lot of very skilled people give valuable input all the time. Thanks to you all for this!

Gisle :)

[Mark Thorpe]

OK so I'm a dumb ass. just wanting to use the Canon EF-S range of glass. I have taken a look at the Birger Mount details for ordering. Whats all the LEMO and cable stuff about? I thought the mount is just a mount to enable the use of Canon glass. Do we need all this LEMO stuff for housings etc?

"Long live the Noobian uprising"!

Cheers,
Mark.

[Babu Kantamneni]

OK so I'm a dumb ass. just wanting to use the Canon EF-S range of glass. I have taken a look at the Birger Mount details for ordering. Whats all the LEMO and cable stuff about? I thought the mount is just a mount to enable the use of Canon glass. Do we need all this LEMO stuff for housings etc?

"Long live the Noobian uprising"!

Cheers,
Mark.
It is for motors.You can focus, zoom and iris and even with blue tuth wireless.
You can send the camera down and sip on your coffee!
We know you like water to sand anytime.It is upto you.
have agood time in SA!

[Ken Corben]

Any news or tests results you folk have done using the Birger mount ? Gibby ?

You saw the announcement by Birger that they will be at LART this weekend with a working Canon mount? Ketch Rossi and others are bringing a significant collection of Canon glass so the LART testing of this lens option for RED will be very revealing. Might want to take Birger up on their early reservation offer for the free blue tooth controller. Mike Hastings is all over this solution for his underwater housing design and will have some cool news for us in the near future. AND YES - we are testing the Canon 10-22 at LART.



Perhaps a silly question BUT ... have you folk tried a x0.6 wide angle adapter on the 18-50 RED lens ? The lens has such close focus capability, I was wondering if by the time it's behind a dome, one would really notice the effects of a x0.6 (or similar factor to get us close to 90 degrees FOV) ?

Not silly but rather brilliant really. Gibby has tested and reviewed the RED-EYE (no affiliation) non-zoom through x.6 wide angle adaptor on HD cameras. We will add this to the LART lens test agenda on the RED 18-50. I will also test this underwater as well at the 18mm focal length. Damn good suggestion. They also make a x.4 wide angle adapter.

Inventors web site:
http://www.collinscraft.com/

Steve Gibby Studio Daily Red Eye Wide Angle Adaptor article:
http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthly/reviews/f/rproduction/7289.html

VF Gadgets Red Eye page:
http://www.vfgadgets.com/RedEye.htm

Red Eye web site:
http://www.red-eye.tv/


At the 50mm end, what is the reproduction ratio of the RED 18-50 / could it be used for close-up material ? What's the front filter size ? Essentially, wondering if the 18-50 with a 'flip in 0.6' (registered properly) would cut it ... then one would have a single lens for w/a and c/u in the one package ? thoughts ?

Another brilliant question. The RED 18-50 lens is a 72mm thread size. I will test the lens at the long end and see what we get especially in the CFWA mode. The underwater test will have to wait until after LART.

[Ken Corben]

Congrats on a great piece of glass, Ken! Hope to see some 4k stills to better evaluate the quality you´re getting. :)

Thanks. I will post the results from the 8R testing. Mike Hastings is working overtime to build my first Aquavideo Pro Housing around this piece of glass. The investment is specifically targeted for obtaining images for an amazing one-hour special Gibby and I are producing in association with our new production partner. Can't say much more yet, but when you see the CFWA results and the subject matter I think everyone will be stoked (impressed).


Does anyone know anything about differing port mounts on the housings (gates, aquavideo)? Would it be possible to make a mount for say nexus ports?

Mike Hastings and I have spent countless cell phone minutes on this subject. Mike has posted extensively on the subject. Bottom line, he will give you his opinion and then build and deliver what ever your heart desires. I would heed his advice though.

Sharky

[David Nardini]

Red Eye web site:
http://www.red-eye.tv/


Sharkguy ... thanks for your update, much appreciated, especially the RED EYE info.

Yes, good to see Birger (Erik) finally post the order form. I've placed my order for the Canon mount and await confirmation & ideally some idea of a real delivery date. Really looking forward to the feedback from the LART session.

The 18-50 was a line of thinking for underwater usage 'just on case' Birger hits delays / another option.
Assuming the collimation of the 18-50, the RED EYE and the dome port can be kept in register, I'd love to see how they perform ;-)
If the RED EYE (or similar) could be swung in/out of place, it could provide quite a powerful one-lens solution for u/w footage ;-) .... IMHO

Cheers ... and looking forward to the next update ...

[Michael Hastings]

OK so I'm a dumb ass. just wanting to use the Canon EF-S range of glass. I have taken a look at the Birger Mount details for ordering. Whats all the LEMO and cable stuff about? I thought the mount is just a mount to enable the use of Canon glass. Do we need all this LEMO stuff for housings etc?

"Long live the Noobian uprising"!

Cheers,
Mark.

Tthe other guys already answered some of this but I wrote this the other day and then my internet died. Still might be helpful


Mark:

The short answer is yes. The idea of the birger mount is that it is not just a physical mount, it is an electronic mount that simulates the camera body because all of the EF and EF-S lenses only have electronic iris - there is no manual ring to set iris on those lenses. The beauty of the birger is that once you create that electronic interface you can control both iris and focus using the internal motors and you don't have to worry about gears and in particular you don't have to have different gears for different lenses. The birger mount lets us control the iris and focus remotely similar to how we do it on broadcast video cameras where you have a cable to the lens (or in this case to the mount) and you can position the control knobs/pots wherever you want on the housing. Further, those control knobs are the same no matter what lens you use, so if you want to switch from the EF-S 10-22 to the EF 14 or to a macro lens you just change the lens.

One of the problems with still lenses for cine use (although not that important for U/W) is that still lenses have a very short focus throw i.e. the amount of turn to go from closest to infinity focus, whereas cine lenses have a very big turn therefore it is easier to be precise. The second great thing it does is because there are hundreds or even thousands of "steps" for the focus motor, birger can "map" that to a large turn on the focus knob (which has an electronic encoder in it) thus allowing cine-style focusing - and by the way when you buy the birger mount you are also buying a "follow focus" rig - which just means a separate knob that allows a second person to "pull" focus with out getting in the way of the main camera operator. Follow focus units are typically $800 to several thousand dollars.

Finally, the birger mount is a physical mount as well as an electronic mount. You can't use the old FD canon lenses because the "flange focal distance" - the distance from the flange to the film/sensor plane is shorter on the FDs. However, Nikon, Contax, leica-r etc. use a longer flange focal distance so - voila! you can use Nikkor, Zeiss, and many other lenses on Canon EOS (and therefore the birger mount) with simple mechanical adapters (about $30).

In other words you can use Nikon on Canon but you can't use Canon on Nikon. You don't get electronic control but all of the old Nikkors and even many of the new autofocus Nikkors have manual iris so you can use these lenses in manual mode. Again not that big a deal for us U/W but nice for abovewater stuff if you have a favorite Nikon or Zeiss lens you would like to use. (I just realized that one nice exception for underwater is that the Nikkor Fisheye 8mm is available in a PL mount conversion but is much cheaper in its original Nikon mount and you could use it with the Nikon/EOS adapter quite easily)

As far as the LEMO connectors you need them to attach to the camera and then from the mount to the knobs. One option is to use the knobs you get stock with the birger mount mounted in the housing, but it is probably nicer to get an extra set of encoder knobs. We are sorting that out with Erik at Birger, but I have suggested that people budget $250 or so for two extra cables and $600 or so for an extra set of encoder/knobs.

We may mount the knobs internally with a shaft through the housing wall or the alternative is to make a small box on the outside of the housing (which could be easily positioned according to user preference or even used as a follow focus by another diver) with a cable to the housing/mount. The simplest thing would be to have focus and iris in one box (since the encoders loop through one to the other) if people can live with iris and focus on the same side. That would be my preference but would like to hear feedback on that.

REGARDING DIFFERENT PORTS.

Because we are making our housing with the removable front plate it would be relatively easy to supply you with a frontplate with the port mount of your choice - Nexus, subal, aquatica, Ikelite etc. - the problem is that most of them have a relatively small opening - usually about 4". This is fine for most of the still lenses but won't work for most of the cine lenses - i.e. the RED 18-50 which is 4.5" DIA. or the Arri 8R or the Nikkor 8mm Fisheye which are even larger.

This is why I chose to use the older screw on style Aquatica ports. It has a much larger opening - close to 6". My basic concept for the "stock" housing was that the Birger mount with either the Canon 10-22 EF-S or the CanonEF 14mm would be the most common/most cost effective high quality lens solution - but I wanted to make it so that it would not require anything special to be able to use the Arri Ultraprime 8R that Ken is buying - which is probably the ultimate lens for underwater 4K.

I think the Canon stills are going be very high quality, but I also know that there are going to be jobs where they insist on using cine glass. I believe we have achieved that goal - the housings I am building right now allow you to use the Canon 10-22 or 14mm on birger mount, or with the PL mount you can use the RED 18-50, the Arri 8R, AND the 8mm Fisheye-Nikkor without any housing modification except the addition of a $100 extension ring when using the 8R (and you could use the 8R without the extension ring in a pinch). We have Aquatica macro flat ports available now and will probably build some flat ports of our own as well in the future.

Control of the canon still lenses would be through the Birger mount. With the Arri 8R or 8mm fisheye-nikkor you would just preset focus and we will supply with the "stock" housing a control that will allow you to adjust the iris.

At DEMA last month I spoke to the still housing manufacturers and we have access to any of the 8" or 9" glass domes from Aquatica, Subal, etc. however I am probably going to end up having the "stock" glass dome use an 8" dome that one of our local people had made by HOYA for a special still camera housing . He spent over $100K having them made and claims they are even better than the Aquatica and while I can't confirm that yet - I do know they are excellent.

[Mark Thorpe]

Mike,
You're a star. Thanks for that. Appreciate it.

Mark.

[David Nardini]

Thanks for the info Mike ... like the Birger 'mapping' approach. I assume this is factory set and cannot be 'tweaked' ?

I might have missed these in the past, BUT, is the following new :

RED FLASH (SATA) Module (http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/17)

Red 1.8" SATA Flash 32GB Media (http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/85)


Nice to see it implemented as for the CF card module ... will go some way helping keep the u/w housing compact (+ less power required).
Price wise, the 32GB media seems very good value when compared to what is quoted here :
http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_disk.asp?refer=60


The RED FLASH DRIVE is still there (http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/74) and more costly ... no mention of capacity ? I wonder what is THE difference ?

Cheers ...

[Ken Corben]

Very cool stuff going on for us underwater RED users. John Ellerbrock of Gates housings attended LART on Saturday. It was fun to see a big smile on his face as he moved in and out of the various LART stations. Deep RED is gonna' be cool for sure.

I just received the Aquavideo external monitor housing from Mike with cabling and a new prototype splash housing for a major GibCor client shoot next week - way cool! Nice work Mike. The housing features use of the soon to be released 320 GB RED drive, custom Li ion batteries and the RED 18-50 lens. Specifically built for the clients' needs this is gonna' be way fun...stay tuned.

Also, I'll have resolution burst charts for the Arri 8R available in 4K for analysis for those interested later this week if I can pry the lens out of Mike's hands :-)

We will also be testing the Canon glass solution with Birger mount this month for incorporation into the housing design option for the RED Pro housing from Aquavideo.

[Gisle K. Sverdrup]

Thanks a lot Mike and Ken!
That´s really good news for me. That would make it easy to use one set of domes for still lenses and then have the option to get the Aquatica ones for cine lenses if a client wants that. I´ve been in contact with the gates guys as well, and based on their reply and your I´m starting to lean seriously towards an Aquavideo RED. :)

Gisle

[Mark Thorpe]

Crappy weather at the moment, hence the mucking around with images but it should soon clear. Can't wait to see what gives in 4k with these cuties.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1197873902.jpg

Cheers,
Mark.

[Babu Kantamneni]

Crappy weather at the moment, hence the mucking around with images but it should soon clear. Can't wait to see what gives in 4k with these cuties.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1197873902.jpg

Cheers,
Mark.
Hi mark,
I was about to go to sleep here.With this image nightmare galore!!!

[Ken Corben]

RED DRIVE is absolutely perfect for UW shooting...

[Ken Corben]

Just shot some fabulous UW 4K footage for a client using the RED 18-50mm lens - way cool!

Special thanks to Mike at Aquavideo for building a specialty housing for the shoot. Housing features RED LCD mounted internally and yes that is the RED drive being used in the housing. It fit perfectly in the housing.

Sharky

[Mark Thorpe]

Looking good Ken.

Mike, could a housing be requested in Black? No highly contrasting logos or the like? I would like to make a front end color pattern using Yum Yum Yellow as it looks like I will also be shooting a lot of the big stuff over the coming year. Another project in the pipeline. Please PM for in depth chat.

babubu, just count to ten buddy and all the baddies just go away.

Best,
Mark.

[Jason Sturgis]

Mark,
You are definitely staring at the business end of that little baddie. He needs to pose like that again when it is 4k. Great stuff and love seeing the frame grabs.
-Jason

[Ken Corben]

Mike, could a housing be requested in Black? No highly contrasting logos or the like? I would like to make a front end color pattern using Yum Yum Yellow as it looks like I will also be shooting a lot of the big stuff over the coming year.

Black is the color of the finished pro housing from Aquavideo. Laser engraved with no stickers is available. The housings you see here are marketing specific in RED with the logos.

Mike will build what ever you desire or can imagine as I am learning. Although I think he is getting tired of my late night calls for requests and design changes. For sure his girlfriend hates me :-) He answers the phone, "Ken Corben's Aquavideo 24 hour hotline." Very funny.

The two housings in the posted photos, Atlantis and Honolulu, are of the PVC splash design, both custom built for me to test RED 4K underwater and for client shoots these past few months using the RED 18-50mm lens.

The pro housing is nearing completion with a few design changes for the immediate future. "Everything is subject to change, count on it."

Recent design decisions for the first production run:

Birger mount is still being built so we are using the ARRI 8R ultra prime behind a 6" acrylic dome port instead of the Canon 10-22 for now.

Design choice: we will use the RED brick batteries and RED DRIVE mounted on posts at the rear of the housing on a slide out tray (makes the housing a few inches longer but still smaller than an Altecine housing). This is based on testing Li ion batteries and CF cards during the test phases and from input from other UW shooters.

The RED EVF is an elegant solution and in my opinion will be the viewfinder of choice for UW shooters in an external housing on an adjustable arm.

The RED LCD external housing from Aquavideo is fabulous though. I recommend getting one of each external monitor housing since they have specific applications.

Mike and I plan to test all of the above in the coming weeks and will post the results for UW reduser input.

Tons of fun stuff waiting to be shot in RED 4K including the tiger sharks of Aliwal with Mark. Play big or stay home, right Mark?

Sharky

[Mark Thorpe]

Ken and Mike, I'll be watching with bated breath for the tests. I'm sure hat with all the pro feedback from you though Ken that will all just be a formality.

My main aim is to get RED wet ASAP using Birger and Canon 10-22mm. Not even thinking of any topside applications at the mo, I guess I will start decking myself out with the appropriate topside gear as and when RED wet stock starts paying off.

Playing as big as it gets for the moment, on tail end crimp factor scale that is!!

Best.
Mark.

[Russ Campbell]

Hi Ken. Good to hear that the pro housing will be all black. We agree that housing both the EVF and LCD will be important for different applications. Looking forward to hearing your feedback. We certainly hope to be filming some tigers with Mark next year. We are going to be looking around for some good bull shark filming opportunities in Mozambique in January. Unfortunately no RED. The Sony Z1 will have to do. Regards, Russell and Cindy

[David Groundwater]

hi ken,

where is the centre of gravity in the housing? is it smack in the middle or is it low because of a weight on the bottom or whatever?

in other words, can you point the camera in any direction without having to forceably hold the orientation?

cheers,
david

[Ken Corben]

hi ken,

where is the centre of gravity in the housing? is it smack in the middle or is it low because of a weight on the bottom or whatever?

in other words, can you point the camera in any direction without having to forceably hold the orientation?

cheers,
david

Great question to which there are several solutions.

In the PVC housings the trim is rather spot on. CG may be a little aft in the aluminum housing due to battery, drive and camera with the Arri 8R. I am guessing that it will be closer to center with the Birger/Canon solution.

John at Gates uses a clever and elegant internal min-weight system with velcro to trim the balance of the camera.

A second solution is to use small wings on the side of the camera that are cheese plated for numerous handle, monitor and light positioning options - either parallel or rifle grip (off set) and add external trim weights to these plates.

A third option is an abacus style balance system built into the foot of the housing ( a small rectangular U channel welded to the bottom of the cylinder for tripod attach points and also serves as stable feet for the housing to prevent rolling. This design enables quick trimming in water by adjusting the trim weight on the "abacus" when one does a configuration change in the housing, e.g., changing lenses and ports.

Mike is building the abacus system for testing on the first two pro housings.

Sharky

[Michael Hastings]

hi ken,

where is the centre of gravity in the housing? is it smack in the middle or is it low because of a weight on the bottom or whatever?

in other words, can you point the camera in any direction without having to forceably hold the orientation?

cheers,
david

Edit: As you can see Sharky beat me to it (I had to answer the phone and didn't notice he posted before I uploaded this.)

Basically it is pretty easy to set CG anywhere you want. The displacement (the weight it has to be to be neutral) of the housing is about 48 lbs. whether it is the aluminum or the pvc. The PVC housing is quite light so takes a lot of weight. On the protos we had about 10 pounds on the bottom and a 5 lb on the top.

That is about how I like it, as the extra weight on the bottom gives it a little "steadicam" effect. I got used to massive housings, since the early broadcast systems went about 125 lbs and we gradually moved down to 70 to 80 lbs for Varicam and F900s - so the 30 pound HDV housings and even these RED housings feel like toys. The other thing is most of my jobs have been television oriented with talent - so not a lot of time underwater - say 30 minutes of level shooting of the talent and 10-15 minutes shooting fish and creatures and usually only 2 dives a day. I recognize that a lot of you shoot much longer and twisting and turning for creatures etc. and we have some thin aluminum extrusions filled with lead that can be fitted on all four sides of the PVC housing making it effectively neutral in all directions.

The aluminum housings don't take a lot of weight and the aluminum tube keeps it well distributed so it is pretty easy to get it however you like it with small weights.

If you look at Sharky's post 520 you can see there is an aluminum channel on the bottom of the housing (It will be black anodized on shipping versions.) The channel has mounting holes for tripod or other mounting and a molded weight that can be shifted forward and backward to trim balance and then locked in place. On the PVC housing it is a rather large weight - on the aluminum just a few pounds. From there it is just a matter of using small trim weights to get it exactly how you like it.

The channel also has four holes for the ball mounts for the ball type strobe arms which can be used to make a small underwater tripod setup for macro and such.

(Note: the displacement is about 2.3 pounds per inch and on the initial housings we are going pretty much max length to allow use of the REDDRIVE and the RED brick batteries, since we want to do more testing with other batteries before we commit to custom Li-ions on the side.) Personally, I think the weight at just under 50 lbs total is about perfect - easy for 2 people to get it in and out of the water, one person can without too much strain - and underwater there is enough mass that you get steady shots. The length is certainly manageable, but a little longer than perfect. However as I said in one of my earlier posts - since it is cylindrical we can (relatively easily) shorten the housing and regroove the end without a complete rebuild - when better configurations become available i.e. CF, expresscard, etc. with long record times and/or alternate power configurations.)

[David Groundwater]

ken/mike - thank you both.

cheers,

david

[Mark Thorpe]

Mike,
With regards to the camera fitting in the housing how is that achieved? What I mean to ask is do we need to buy the RED Cheese Plate in order for the RED One to slide into the housing or do you have your own proprietary fitting mechanism?

PM me if you prefer with any answers.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

Maybe a bit belated, it's still the 25th here, but seasons greetings to all Bubble Blowers. Next year will be an amazing year for all Aquatic RED Cams I'm sure. I have some pretty big plans lined up already.

Again, best to all.
Mark.

[Ken Corben]

With regards to the camera fitting in the housing how is that achieved? What I mean to ask is do we need to buy the RED Cheese Plate in order for the RED One to slide into the housing or do you have your own proprietary fitting mechanism?

No RED cheese plate needed. That said, I have tested just about every accessory made by RED and gotta' say the quality and price are unbeatable.

The attached photo is of a working prototype for the PVC splash housing but shows the rudimentary concept of the finished product for the finished Pro Housing. The camera attaches to a camera tray that slides in and out of the housing from the front or rear and is locked in place by dual mounting screws.

The difference - the Pro Housing will not have the LCD mounted on the tray internal to the camera housing, rather, separate housing for LCD and EVF.

The rear of the Pro Housing will provide removable RED battery and RED drive.

OF COURSE, Mike will build it any way you want but this is the direction I am leaning and it is still way smaller than other professional housings.


Next year will be an amazing year for all Aquatic RED Cams I'm sure. I have some pretty big plans lined up already.

Really looking forward to seeing everyone's RED 4K UW images next year especially yours - Cheers Mate

[Michael Hastings]

Mike,
With regards to the camera fitting in the housing how is that achieved? What I mean to ask is do we need to buy the RED Cheese Plate in order for the RED One to slide into the housing or do you have your own proprietary fitting mechanism?

PM me if you prefer with any answers.

Cheers,
Mark.

First, Merry Christmas to all the bubble blowers, too.

Nothing additional is needed from RED. The camera in its base configuration has a pair of 1/4-20 and a pair of 3/8-16 mounting holes on its flat bottom (actually I think there are two sets of 1/4-20s) and these are the standard screws for mounting on most tripod plates.

IN the housing we use a long aluminum plate that slides in and has slots that mate with two shoulder bolts at the back and two 1/4-20 knob screws lock it in place in the front. The camera mounts to the mountplate with two more 1/4-20 screws and the mountplate has guide pins to further keep the camera from twisting.

ONe of the real beauties of the RED camera for us bubble blowers is that it strips down to almost a perfect configuration for a housing.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey thanks Ken n Mike,
I guess I should have looked a bit closer at the image as it's pretty straightforward eh?

Looking forward to seeing many images in 4K, its going to be wild.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

When the viz is Shite........

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1198957186.jpg

Go Black and White !!!

Cheers,
Mark.

[C.H.Haskell]

Hey folks

I enjoy this thread and now need some help and I figured someone here may be able to.

I want to take my wife to get her open water certificate and was hoping to take down my canon HV20 for fun, anyone recommend a housing for this little guy? I have been diving for many years but never done any digital work down under so this is all very unexplored territory for me and I am not even sure how well the Hv20 will perform under water. Any thoughts?

We are thinking of going to cuba (thats where she is from) so I wanted to keep my video gear minimal. I notice some people are using a cheap sony housing but I dont mind spending 900 bucks if its worth it.

Thanks!

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Haskell,
There are a number of affordable housing solutions. However for peace of mind and to have the ability to check that the wet stuff stays on the outside I would recommend something like Ikelite, maybe www.ikelite.com but Google Ikelite anyway. The units are affordable and robust.

Cheers,
Mark.

P.S Here's the link to the HV20 page, what a nice guy I am eh? hehehe. http://www.ikelite.com/web_two/can_hv20.html priced at $1100

[C.H.Haskell]

Hey Mark

Thank you good sir...yeah after looking into it I think this might be the ticket. Then after more looking around I think I would rather upgrade my hv20 to a XHA1 and the Ikelite to a Gates. This should be a nice intro set up? haha...I wish...RED already has me tapped financially.

I just like the idea of shooting tape underwater (archive reasons) but if I was going to take the dive I think the A1+gates combo seems like the ticket...anyone shooting with somthing similar to this?

[Mark Thorpe]

I have been using Gates with my Sony Z1U for the past year and a half and I really do like the ruggedness, modularity and manual work flow. Tough as nails and built to last. There are many different manufacturers out there. Personally I used Ikelite at the beginning and then went to Sealux and eventually Gates.

Hope it all pans out for you mate.

Cheers,
Mark.

[C.H.Haskell]

Good to know. How do you like the sony ZIU underwater? I know there threads on this I am sure but would like to know. I was thinking about taking my HVX down but I dont know that its going to manage in low light...and dont feel like offloading p2 data in a wet environment. What makes the Gates modular...could a gates housing be converted later for another camera? I must dreaming. Have a good one.

[C.H.Haskell]

Did I miss the announcement from Gates when they planned to have the DEEP RED housing available?

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Haskell,
The modularity of Gates, IMHO, relates to the fact that you can choose the elements you want to shoot with and build them into the system, pretty much like the RED cage idea here. For example the ergonomic hand grips versus the standard, the 2.5", 4" or new 16x9 Hi Rez external monitors, the port selection. All of these options allow the shooter to customize their system to suit exactly their style. I'm not saying that this doesn't exist with certain other housing manufacturers but my experience thus far with Gates is one borne of not having that option with previous housing lines.

Deep Red should be available by mid 2008 if all goes as planned, as far as I am aware of. You should contact GATES, RedUser name, as he, John Ellerbrook, is the CEO / Owner of Gates Underwater Housings and will be able to explain more including costs etc.

Cheers,
Mark.
GATES RedUser Profile: http://www.reduser.net/forum/member.php?u=1936

[Mark Thorpe]

From two days ago.....great fun.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1199075691.jpg

Cheers,
Mark.

[Ken Corben]

How do you like the sony ZIU underwater? I know there threads on this I am sure but would like to know. I was thinking about taking my HVX down but I dont know that its going to manage in low light...and dont feel like offloading p2 data in a wet environment.

Loved the Z1 underwater for the past 2 years. Recently, just sold my Z1 and Gates housing though - sad to see it go really. Like all my Gates housings it survived my travels and abuses like always. The camera itself was a good system for HDV under water - that is before the release of RED ONE cameras of course. The Z1 footage is useless in today's market since HDV is not an HD deliverable for clients or broadcasters - hence it had to go. The choices were either CineAlta or REDCINE 4K. Obvious which choice I made. Caveat - the Panasonic pseudo-HD 720p format is still being accepted by some HD broadcasters as of today.

My associate shoots the HVX 20 under water and loves the results given its limitations, e.g., low light and limited record times. I think that any future investments in professional underwater shooting equipment that is not RED Digital Cinema based is money not wisely spent. I emphasize the professional point here based on the future markets of HD buyers not the new and emerging alternative digital markets. One camera does not do it all.


Did I miss the announcement from Gates when they planned to have the DEEP RED housing available?

I think both the Gates and Aquavideo RED ONE housing systems are both waiting for the Birger mount solution's final release which is still pending. PL glass still exceeds most end user budgets. The ability to shoot RED 4K with Canon glass will be a significant breakthrough for many UW shooters. That said, I still love the RED 18-50 lens and its results thus far UW.

To date, I have shot RED 4K UW for two major clients with brilliant results. Also shot the first UW RED 4K thanks to Gibby and #8. Now the menu includes a series of tests with the first Aquavideo Pro Housing built around the Arri 8R lens in Jan. This is in preparation for an already contracted major client shoot in RED 4K in March.

Then off to Africa to shoot Mark in 4k shooting his RED camera UW system amongst the sharks - can't wait.

Here is the current RED ONE pro-housing design list for Aquavideo:

1) PL mount lens control - focus and Iris
2) ND - I am researching the ND screw in options.
3) Camera controls - Power and record
4) Monitors - need HD-SDI out to BNC connector on housing. Interchangeable LCD/EVF mounts (uses same cable connector just different attach points on camera)
5) Pole cam attach point
6) Adjustable ballast system on or in the foot per Aquavideo design suggestion
7) We'll name this housing Hollywood - finish is black.
8) Design will utilize the RED brick battery, RED V plate and the RED drive mounted at the rear of the camera tray for easy removal.
9) Pistol grip handles on adjustable cheese plate wings - left hand forward.
10) Vacuum test nipple

That's a pretty damn good start and a sexy ass housing if you ask me. Pictures and performance review to follow soon (Jan 20th?).

Sharky

[Mark Thorpe]

Then off to Africa to shoot Mark in 4k shooting his RED camera UW system amongst the sharks - can't wait.

Sharky

Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout. OK, cue the sharks!!

Cheers,
Mark.

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks Sharky...I have been contemplating this for a while and I feel if I am going to invest in a Gates housing, might as well be for a camera that is ready to deliver and or broadcast as you mentioned.

Interesting point about the HVX performance, I have always wanted to take it UW but decided to save all expenses for RED.

I am very interested to see what Gates is working on and how they plan to approach the housing in regards to lenses etc. I am also curious how you will be able to pull focus, control aperture and all that jazz...I can see why they might be waiting for the BIRGER mount, makes sense to tap into EOS controls.

Keep it coming with these UW images, incredible stuff you guys are working on and look forward to seeing this 4k on 4k UW Africa shark combo you mentioned.

Best

[Michael Hastings]

Hey Mark

Thank you good sir...yeah after looking into it I think this might be the ticket. Then after more looking around I think I would rather upgrade my hv20 to a XHA1 and the Ikelite to a Gates. This should be a nice intro set up? haha...I wish...RED already has me tapped financially.

I just like the idea of shooting tape underwater (archive reasons) but if I was going to take the dive I think the A1+gates combo seems like the ticket...anyone shooting with somthing similar to this?

Just to get my 2 cents in, in addition to the RED housing, we also make housings for HV-20, XHA1, HVX200, Sony FX7/V1, etc.

Housing for HV20 and including wide angle lens converter, dome port, and 5 controls is $1399.00. Although I would be happy to sell you a housing for your HVX - and people are getting some great footage with it, I agree with Sharky - if you are going to spend substantial money it should be on a RED. Because of the beautiful way the RED camera is configured, a housing for it can be less expensive than say a Gates for an HVX200 or Canon XHA1 (Our housing for the HVX200 is substantially less and I would tell you it works just as well - or better - but that's a whole 'nuther story)

My recommendation, since you already have an HV20, is get a housing for it, shoot with it now and even when you get your RED it will be a great compact camera for POV, polecam, or anywhere where you don't want to deal with the extra size of the RED setup. Or you could just sell it and not lose much.

The HV-20 does a very nice job, I have several customers using it and we have even built a dual HV-20 housing for doing 3D - some demo footage was shown at DEMA in October and was VERY cool.

[Mark Thorpe]

Keep it coming with these UW images, incredible stuff you guys are working on and look forward to seeing this 4k on 4k UW Africa shark combo you mentioned.....Oh yeah, thats gonna be a hoot a minute, can't wait.

On another note Haskell above all make sure the company you deal with has a proven after sales service. Much more important than actually buying the housing is the knowledge that your housing manufacturer of choice can support you at times of need when things can, and will do at some time, go pear shaped in the field.

Cheers,
Mark.

[C.H.Haskell]

Got a link AquaVideo...I am interested. Thanks for the input.

[Michael Hastings]

Got a link AquaVideo...I am interested. Thanks for the input.

www.aquavideo.com

website is way out of date, so no page specific for the HV-20. If you go to the
pdfs and grab the one for the HC3 it would be very similar, except the HV20 also has a way to do white balance.

www.aquavideo.com/pdfs

Working on updates for recent housings and of course the housing for the REDONE.

[Ken Corben]

Recently sent Mike some very cool photos of the RED ONE in an Aquavideo PVC housing at work in the field. Can't use them until post NAB due to client NDA but they are great shots. I plan to get a nice selection of photos to Mike of the Pro Housing at work that he can post immediately to his website later this month (Jan).

Looks like no sleep in Jan for Mike :-)

[Mark Thorpe]

Ken,
Flattering Wetsuit mate!

Cheers,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

...that's all that comes to mind when I see that wet suit Ken. I thought that suit died a long time ago. Jeeeez, gotta get another suit dude! Drop $43.50 for a suit that doesn't look like a diaper. How long you had that thing anyway? 9 years? Now you NEED to take me up on that cost deal with BARE. You're scaring me with those colors Ken. he he he he :cold:

[Ken Corben]

Geez,

Didn't know the fashion police were on patrol in this forum - I'll stick to photos of the camera and subjects perhaps more suitable for the audience :-)

[Johnny Friday]

Ken,
stop.... that's tasteless to show us your wife in a bikini.

[Johnny Friday]

oops. that was all in good fun KC. put back the photo. It was only playing around. And you have a pretty damned good sense of humor. I say stick with the suit and make it a trademark!

[Mark Thorpe]

ahhhh, much better......Hey Johnny where ya been mate? Good to hear from you again.

Best,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

hi Mark, just got back from Socorro Island. Now I'm off for the gray whale season at San Ignacio Lagoon.

Stay well and I'll drop in from time to time.
JF

[C.H.Haskell]

Little predicament here...I cant decide if I want to house an hv20, hvx, or canon 40D (still camera), I am all over the place.

Although I am an experienced diver and above water Dp, I am a newbie to the UW film/photography world. I do plan to house my RED down the road but it seems it will be more then I can afford, speaking of the DEEP RED.

I am just looking for a way to get started and would love to shoot my wife's dive experience getting certified etc. The more I look around the more I want to plunge on pro gear. Housing my HV20 would be cheap as 900 bucks (ikelite) but the footage seems wobbly from what I have seen and I worry cause the rig is probably just so small, I could be wrong. Any thoughts?

[Mark Thorpe]

I would suggest that you house either one (the most economical) of your smaller video units. The reason being that you need to get a feel for diving with a camera. Above all though it is about your dive ability before taking a camera down. Buoyancy, air conservation etc etc. I shouldn't need to spout on about that but you'd be surprised how many people take cameras with them when they should really be working on their diver skill set.

By the time you are proficient with that, and you have some great DVD reminders of your dive adventures, you would have received your RED learned the work flow and will be ready to get it wet. Then by selling your current housing you will be on the way to getting your DEEP RED or whatever housing option you decide.

Just my plan of action if I were in your shoes.

Cheers,
Mark.

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks Mark...I think you helped me make up my mind. I could not agree with you more about the importance of ones diving abilities, I am working on rescue for this reason alone. Lets just say I leave my ego at home when I go diving. ;)

On another note I enjoyed browsing ocean stock images, where could I see "The Majesty of Muck".

[Mark Thorpe]

The OSI website is very limited at the moment. All three of us are quite strapped for time to throw at it. IMO it needs a serious revamping and aesthetic overhaul.

The Majesty of Muck, in mp4 format, can be viewed via my Blog located at: www.camdiver.blogspot.com I think its on the second page.

Cheers,
Mark.

[C.H.Haskell]

"Majesty of Muck"...a great title for an even better film Mark, well done mate. The Z1 really performed well, I can only imagine how it must have been to watch on the big screen. Your UW work it quite impressive, I have much to learn before I could ever think about taking RED below the surface. You really managed to wrap up a picture lock with in a very reasonable schedule, I assume your were trying to meet the demands of a particular festivals entry? Good luck with the picture, and congrats on its recognition.

Side note...As I have been researching a small UW video solution, I cant help to think about the UW SCARLET...a compact high end underwater unit. I am sure the housing folks will be keen on the development of the Scarlet.

[Mark Thorpe]

Thanks for the kind words too. Patience, energy and an appreciation of the marine environment, all key elements once the diving has been mastered, to an extent as we are never masters of the Ocean. You will find your own pace and I'm sure you will know when you are ready.

Yes, I am sure Scarlet will be a very interesting package, just waiting to see what the form factor will be.

Cheers,
Mark.

[C.H.Haskell]

New ikelite UW home for HV20 just arrived, really nice build quality and easy to setup. I went with Ikelite mainly cause it was the least expensive ($900) pro housing on the market I could find.

Now that I think about it I feel I might need at least one light...maybe two. I really want the colors to pop. Any suggestions?

[Mark Thorpe]

I only use lights for Macro. Use the color corrective filters, wide angle and White Balance to sort out your wide colors. otherwise you end up with two small light dots in the middle of the shot when wide. Carry a light if you get a wet mate macro diopter, I think Ikelite have an outlet source for those. Also see if you can get the wide angle adapter lens, again from an Ikelite source.

Best,
Mark.

[C.H.Haskell]

Thanks for the heads up, sounds like...go for lights on the ECU but not necessary for going wide. As far as the wet mate goes, are you talking about something like this?

http://reefphoto.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=117_118

I also see the woody's but I only have what is available in 67mm thread...at least these macro diopters seem less expensive. The Ikelite wide seems reasonable at 275ish. I can already tell its the lights that might push my targeted budget but all in all so far so good.

[Mark Thorpe]

Those diopters are single element, fixed to the front of the cam inside the housing before the dive. That means you will be governed for the dive to those lens parameters. There should be a wet mate diopter somewhere, one that can be placed in front of the Wide lens when a Macro op arises and then taken away when you want to revert wide. Most housings now have an internal diopter flip filter for just that scenario. Same with water color filters, as they are orange in color for blue water and shouldn't be used in conjunction with lights as in doing so will render the image orange.

Single element diopters give rise to greater instances of chromatic aberration but are duly economic. To avoid this I would suggest Century Optics Achromatic Diopters (multi element diopters) which run around $475 for the +3.5 and $450 for the +2. I would use either one of these and many times I would also stack these (the greater magnification diopter on the camera first) whilst shooting for "The Majesty of Muck".

Lights can be found to suit most budgets from a few hundred bucks to thousands.

Cheers,
Mark.

[J.D. Frey]

"Majesty of Muck"...a great title for an even better film Mark, well done mate. The Z1 really performed well, I can only imagine how it must have been to watch on the big screen. Your UW work it quite impressive, I have much to learn before I could ever think about taking RED below the surface. You really managed to wrap up a picture lock with in a very reasonable schedule, I assume your were trying to meet the demands of a particular festivals entry? Good luck with the picture, and congrats on its recognition.

Side note...As I have been researching a small UW video solution, I cant help to think about the UW SCARLET...a compact high end underwater unit. I am sure the housing folks will be keen on the development of the Scarlet.

maybe Scarlet will have that new ion repellent technology it's supposedly a fairly mature idea. don't know how far down it'll go though, maybe good enough for snorkeling?

[Mark Thorpe]

Now that would be cool. Don't think the housing manufacturers would be happy though!!

[Ken Corben]

Arrgh!

Damn NDA's.

If only I could post images and info from the current GibCor co-production project that is financed and finalized for shooting RED 4K underwater you guys would be jumping up and down like me and saying, "Holy Batman Robin."

I can say that the RED ONE camera is about to go where no man has been before and that the results are going to be simply fracking amazing. My partners in crime and I are actively training with UW RED 4K camera systems in drysuits with shark suits and rebreathers in preparation for this historic event.

I knew when I was shooting Deadliest Job in the World that I was making ground breaking television. This is going to reset the bar.

Thanks for providing this tool Jim,

Sharky

I'll post more when allowed...Arrgh!

[Mark Thorpe]

Ken,
As of now I ban you from posting any future snippets of this same vein. Not only is it stressing for the reader, an affront to any adventurer but its just plain saddening to read that you guys are having just way too much fun.

Spare a thought for us guys having to put up with long empty hours on a boat having to battle over zealous Tiger Sharks, putting up with the contagious dry humor of south Africa with only the slimmest of chances at possibly getting a new angle on marine behavior.

Any more of this and I'll have no option but to ask the powers that be to ban any future postings. Sheesh.

Best to ya mate,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

Coz mine's just fine. From yesterday.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1200044981.jpg

and

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1199984550.jpg

Havin' fun.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

Crappy Viz out here at the mo, and just to piss off all the guys sat in the offices......mind you It was not far off this today. 5m Viz so just enough notice as shadows emerged from the gloom. This girl was almost resting her snozzle on my glass to get this shot.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1200596635.jpg

Cheers,
Mark.

[chuck colburn]

Mark,

You scare me AND give me bad dreams! lol

[Ken Corben]

Hey Guys,

Crazy busy shooting RED 4K UW in Florida at present testing the camera, lenses, Aquavideo RED housing, ports and the Dive Rite O2ptima rebreather BTW - NICE RIG! http://www.rebreatherexpress.com/rebreathers/o2ptima.shtml

Just finished cross over training on the system and am testing it out in real world shooting scenarios.

Slammed at present diving, shooting, managing data and writing treatments in the evening - ya I'm a one man band on this shoot. I miss Gibby but he's burning the midnight oil in the post facility. Divide and conquer and one of us had to take RED UW :-)

I'll try and post a summary of shooting results in the next few days.

Sharky

[Mark Thorpe]

Chucky's got nothing on me!

Ken all sounds good. Looks like I'll have a cool set of wheels when you get here. Looking at a second hand Land Rover 110 tomorrow morning. Bring lots of RED Stickers and glaringly horrid rub it in yer face, I've got a cool job T-shirts!!

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Looking forward to the reviews.

[Ken Corben]

Bring lots of RED Stickers and glaringly horrid rub it in yer face, I've got a cool job T-shirts!!

Anything for a mate of mine :-)

Check your email.

Cheers,

Sharky

[David Nardini]

To all RED ONE housing manufacturers ... potentially an interesting thread :

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7837

Cheers ...

[Ken Corben]

Traveling today and will post frame grabs and video later this week from my latest underwater tests with RED ONE. The idea was to test in underwater scenarios that are not ideal since RED 4K in beautiful sunlit underwater seascapes is a no brainer re image quality. Steve Gibby and I have an underwater filming expedition coming up that will be under low light, low visibility conditions where we will be using the RED ONE and RED 18-50 lens.

Camera: GibCor RED ONE camera with out latest hardware upgrade.
Build: 12 with black calibration
Lens: Steve Gibby's RED 18-50
ND: none
Settings: 4K 2:1 24 FPS 320 ASA
Housing: Aquavideo PVC design with 6" acrylic dome port
Focus: Preset at 13.85" yielding focus from dome to infinity UW
F stop: Tested low range from WFO to F4
Monitor: RED LCD
Power: RED brick
Medium: RED CF cards
Fan Setting: HOT
Interior cooling used: medical one use only ice pack duration approx 1 hour

Water temp: 72 F
Surface temp: Mid 50's F

All the tests were specifically conducted in flat light (overcast) in low to limited visibility. I used the RED 18-50. The more I use this lens the more it is convincing me that it is an ideal UW lens for numerous applications. The biggest surprise was the RED LCD. In 5 foot visibility, the LCD yielded bright super clear images in amazing color. It was as if the LCD was diving in a different location than I was. The RED 18-50 was a super performer again underwater.

More to follow...any questions?

Sharky

Frame grab is a 2K tiff from RED ALERT to photoshop for resizing - no color correction done.

[Mark Thorpe]

More to follow...any questions?

Sharky

Yeah,
Who's the third Dugong? (I know its a Manatee but that just doesn't sound as good).

[Michael Hastings]

To all RED ONE housing manufacturers ... potentially an interesting thread :

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7837

Cheers ...

David:

As implied in my post on that thread and my earlier posts here - we have been working under the assumption that this will be available in the not too distant future. Handheld ccu's are a standard accessory with virtually every Broadcast and Cine style mid to high end video camera as well as the competing digital cine cameras - and this is what we have used for any complex setup functions on our housings for Betacams, Varicams, F900s, etc.. Also I believe Stuart English told me as much at NAB 2007. In fact Stuart mentioned that the possibility was open to use the USB port for recording additional audio tracks via a normal USB audio interface. Obviously these weren't promises, but it really only makes sense, the USB interface is much more robust than the proprietary ones on Betacams, Varicams, HDCAMs, LANC, etc. And it is generally easier to create products using the USB signals and power.

As I have told the early purchasers, (we have 5 units on order with deposits so far - plus a couple for us - and a few more basically committed but waiting to get closer to camera delivery) we are happy to put a few controls for operating the rear LCD menu buttons, but given the nature of shooting RAW we don't really need that much and it is probably better to wait a few months to see what happens on the USB front before going to far with hitting all of the buttons manually.

[Ken Corben]

Yeah,
Who's the third Dugong? (I know its a Manatee but that just doesn't sound as good).

Ya, that's me the third Dugong. But at least I wore a different suit for you and Johnny this time :-)

You know for me there are times as an underwater filmmaker that I am torn between shooting and interacting. This wild mother and calf were so amazing that I passed the camera to the dive master and said, "Shoot this."

He had no clue what camera he was shooting and turned out to have a good eye. He shot an amazing sequence. Later I explained to the DM the meaning of the camera he had just shot underwater - met with a blank look. He did enthusiastically state that the RED LCD was amazing under water and, "Where can I get one for my HV 20?" That was funny.

Camdiver is pulling out his hair now I'm sure :-)

[Johnny Friday]

Thanks for changing your suit !
I was beginning to worry that you've been spending too much time in hollywood....down around sunset blvd.

[Johnny Friday]

any comments on this fisheye? it was on another thread......
http://www.longvalleyequip.com/lens.php

[Mark Thorpe]

Ya, that's me the third Dugong. But at least I wore a different suit for you and Johnny this time :-)

Camdiver is pulling out his hair now I'm sure :-)

hehehehe, good to hear that Ken, about the suit that is. I'll save the last strands of hair for the coming adventures down here and elsewhere on this continent.

Best,
Mark.

P.S Johnny, thats a serious lens the R8. Maybe a predecessor to the 8R. Let me know if you find out more. Plus its PL mounted. great Price too. I've just forked out for my Canon EF-S10-22mm and a Canon EF-S18-55mm too. At that price though the R8 it would be a great lens for specific shoots.

[Ken Corben]

any comments on this fisheye? it was on another thread......
http://www.longvalleyequip.com/lens.php

Two major points: no ND filtration and does not cover full 35mm frame (circular). Lens clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx-GTXQLF6A

Uhry and others own and/or have tested the Peleng 8mm here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7871

Could be cool for certain apps UW but will require geared controls for the lens and a custom port. Mike may have some ideas as well. Given the cost to benefit ratio if one own a Birger lens control based housing then there is a Canon mount R8 mm version. http://www.rugift.com/photocameras/peleng_fisheye_lens_for_canon_eos.htm

The challenge is of course ND filtration on a fisheye

[Michael Hastings]

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3319&navigator=4

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3279&navigator=4

sigma makes some pretty high quality lenses. Unconfirmed but fairly well substantiated rumors are that red 18-50 is rehoused sigma:

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3279&navigator=4




Two major points: no ND filtration and does not cover full 35mm frame (circular). Lens clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx-GTXQLF6A

Uhry and others own and/or have tested the Peleng 8mm here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7871

Could be cool for certain apps UW but will require geared controls for the lens and a custom port. Mike may have some ideas as well. Given the cost to benefit ratio if one own a Birger lens control based housing then there is a Canon mount R8 mm version. http://www.rugift.com/photocameras/peleng_fisheye_lens_for_canon_eos.htm

The challenge is of course ND filtration on a fisheye

[David Nardini]

Mike/Aquavideo (& others),

Regarding the 'pots' that control the Birger mount ... are these available as 'naked pots' (not sure what to call them / describe them as) so that the focus/aperture controls can be 'built' into the u/w housing ?

Any of you contacted Erik to ascertain if these are available ? If so, what are they called ;-)

Cheers,

EDIT : BTW, has anybody tried using a good quality x0.7 or x0.5 wide angle adapter on the RED 18-50 on land or u/w behind a dome port ?

[Joe Carney]

Hey Mike/AquaVideo, I pm'd you. Didn't know if you saw it or not.

Joe C.

[Michael Hastings]

Mike/Aquavideo (& others),

Regarding the 'pots' that control the Birger mount ... are these available as 'naked pots' (not sure what to call them / describe them as) so that the focus/aperture controls can be 'built' into the u/w housing ?

Any of you contacted Erik to ascertain if these are available ? If so, what are they called ;-)

Cheers,

EDIT : BTW, has anybody tried using a good quality x0.7 or x0.5 wide angle adapter on the RED 18-50 on land or u/w behind a dome port ?

Erik is working on a solution for the internal "naked pots" encoders.

I think Ken may have tried that with a wide on the 18-50 but since the 18-50 - while it has tested very well - is probably based on a sigma 18-50 it is hard to see how it would be as good as the 10-22 canon, but if you are stuck with PL it may be a solution. The optic on the front of the 18-50 isn't that big so it may be possible to screw in a wide converter without it vignetting. The wide would have to fit inside the metal shade that is part of the 18-50.

[David Nardini]

Erik is working on a solution for the internal "naked pots" encoders.

I think Ken may have tried that with a wide on the 18-50 but since the 18-50 - while it has tested very well - is probably based on a sigma 18-50 it is hard to see how it would be as good as the 10-22 canon, but if you are stuck with PL it may be a solution. The optic on the front of the 18-50 isn't that big so it may be possible to screw in a wide converter without it vignetting. The wide would have to fit inside the metal shade that is part of the 18-50.

Good news about the 'naked pots encoders' ...

Indeed ... the RED 18-50 + 0.7 adapter is my current plan-C (plan-B was the dumb Nikkor mount, but also that mount has no ETA !).

I am 100% in line with you, I also view the Canon 10-22 as THE standard lens for u/w wide work (ie : birger = plan-A !).

I was under the impression that the RED 18-50 hood can be unscrewed, leaving a standard 72mm thread. Is this NOT THE CASE ???

Cheers,

[Michael Hastings]

Good news about the 'naked pots encoders' ...

Indeed ... the RED 18-50 + 0.7 adapter is my current plan-C (plan-B was the dumb Nikkor mount, but also that mount has no ETA !).

I am 100% in line with you, I also view the Canon 10-22 as THE standard lens for u/w wide work (ie : birger = plan-A !).

I was under the impression that the RED 18-50 hood can be unscrewed, leaving a standard 72mm thread. Is this NOT THE CASE ???

Cheers,

I didn't look at it that close when I had Gibby's - it looked like a really smooth transition to the hood but it would make sense that it was removable so we need some input from somebody that has one. I put all my eggs into the Birger basket so far.

BTW I've mentioned it elsewhere but when I had the RED 18-50 - which pretty solid speculation has it that it is a Sigma 18-50 rehoused (check the sigma website - specs are identical and given the close focus specs it would be really unusual to just coincidentally come up with those specs) - I was at the Arri place here in Ft. Lauderdale and they put it on to their superduper projector and were quite impressed with the optics, and this is guys who look at Zeiss cines all day long. That tells me 2 things - 1) the RED 18-50 is a good deal for a pl zoom, and 2) There is no reason the still lenses shouldn't perform extremely well. Canon L series are likely to push the Cine zeiss for optical quality on equivalent zooms. The Sigmas too, but they aren't officially supported on Birger.

[Mauricio Handler]

Quick question about "field back-up"
What is the most efficient, safe and economical way to back up footage while in field on a remote location?
I would Primarily like to use Red Drives for underwater footage over a 2-3 week period without studio access.
Is this the best way to go? What would be the workflow here to make sure I have 2-3 back ups of originals in the field?
Coming from the digital still world,
I have never had to back up such massive amount of material.

Thanks for your help.

[Michael Hastings]

Quick question about "field back-up"
What is the most efficient, safe and economical way to back up footage while in field on a remote location?
I would Primarily like to use Red Drives for underwater footage over a 2-3 week period without studio access.
Is this the best way to go? What would be the workflow here to make sure I have 2-3 back ups of originals in the field?
Coming from the digital still world,
I have never had to back up such massive amount of material.

Thanks for your help.

Is that Mauricio? Welcome to the board.

Basically it will probably be one of two things, either a small 2 or 4 bay raid setup with removable drives or you could just get 4 or 5 of the 500 gig or 750 gig usb/firewire external drives and make backups to those.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Western-Digital-My-Book-Essential-Edition-2-0-750GB-External-Hard-Drive-WDH1U7500N/sem/rpsm/oid/196092/catOid/-12961/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Western-Digital-My-Book-750GB-Home-Edition-External-Hard-Drive-WDH1CS7500N/sem/rpsm/oid/193196/catOid/-12961/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

One is $179 for 750 gb but only USB the other is $249 for 750 gb and has firewire as well. 750 would hold two and a half REDDRIVES worth or about 6 hours of 4K. For comparison 750 gb is about 70 DV/HDV tapes of data (HDV is 11gb per 64 minute tape)

[Mauricio Handler]

It is me...I have been following the threads with detailed analysis.
Good to see all your invaluable input.
Your thoughts mirror what I have been thinking.
How about the new Drobo? Reliable and fast enough?
two of them side by side in the field?

Looking ahead to placing my order. Saving my pennies and cleaning out all my old cameras for e-bay!

Thansk for your feedback.

MH

[Johnny Friday]

I know that many might not approve. But for a while now i've just been using small 250gig and 300 gig USB 2 drives---the small ones that you can pick up at Fry's and others for $89 bucks on sale or $129 depending on the day and the sale.

I have used them on Pangas, live-aboards and out in the sand and NOT ONCE have I encountered a failure. I like the idea of a raid and other faster and larger devices, but sometimes....well most times in my case i just don't have the space to carry all that stuff. I have about a dozen of these small USB 2 drives and they are light weight, small and easy to store. Once back at home, transfer them to larger drives and wipe the small portables clean so they can be used again.

that's my plan and it has been working great with P2 footage.

[Michael Hastings]

I know that many might not approve. But for a while now i've just been using small 250gig and 300 gig USB 2 drives---the small ones that you can pick up at Fry's and others for $89 bucks on sale or $129 depending on the day and the sale.

I have used them on Pangas, live-aboards and out in the sand and NOT ONCE have I encountered a failure. I like the idea of a raid and other faster and larger devices, but sometimes....well most times in my case i just don't have the space to carry all that stuff. I have about a dozen of these small USB 2 drives and they are light weight, small and easy to store. Once back at home, transfer them to larger drives and wipe the small portables clean so they can be used again.

that's my plan and it has been working great with P2 footage.

Actually, I agree with you. I think hard drive problems are overblown.I had three Ikegami editcamIIs which are harddrive based. The original editcams started in the mid90s with a 4 gig array (2 2gigs) just like the reddrives - which are now 320gigs. Ikegami went to single 2.5" drives in 1999 and these are the models I used, and proved very reliable.

I think if you use a laptop for a year with constant use, power ups and downs, etc. you may have more potential for trouble, but using these drives occasionally for backup and transfer I think statistically it would be very rare to have problems. If you do two separate backups of your critical footage I think the potential for a problem is statistically astronomical. I think you are more likely to leave your backpack in the airport lounge than you are to have two separate harddrive failures.

[Mauricio Handler]

Any thoughts of what a RED package with all the necessary batteries, Drives and one wide -angle lens with housing will rent for?
Thanks

[Michael Hastings]

Any thoughts of what a RED package with all the necessary batteries, Drives and one wide -angle lens with housing will rent for?
Thanks

Housing rental is currently $550/day and camera about $1000/day - we are usually 4 day week for housings - on cameras, some people are 3 days others 4 for a week. Longer term is usually highly negotiable.

[Michael Hastings]

Been getting a few requests for an update on housings prices. We are finishing up a series of six of the aluminum housings for orders and have a couple PVC orders lined up for next month. Now is probably a good time to get in line if you are coming up on RED delivery.

Base price for:
PVC is $3999.00
Aluminum $6200.00

Currently the base housing is:

housing setup for the Aquatica dome ports: six inch included, 8" acrylic available (and glass soon).

Power, trigger, white balance, focus assist, simple manual iris and zoom control for Arri 8R*. We expect most people to use Birger Canon EOS mount (or possibly Nikon) but see note below about the 8R.

Slide-in Mounting plate that holds camera; Red battery plate (supplied by customer or extra through us - I think it is $175), Holder for RED drive and LCD monitor if you are using it internally.

Housings have typical AquaVideo style "wings" (about 2.5" wide a foot long) which provides mounting for the handles (upward or downward) and adjustable forward and back by six inches or so. The wings also have numerous tapped holes (kind of a "cheeseplate) for mounting lights, meters, LCD and other accessories).

There is an aluminum channel on the bottom which serves as a base as well as holding a weight which can be slid forward and aft to adjust balance. It also has tapped holes for tripod mounting and to allow use of ball arms to create its own tripod. (quadropod?)

As far as extensive camera control, since we are shooting raw it isn't all that necessary and much better if done through the USB remote port - and that capability will be offered as soon as RED implements it.

The depth rating is dependent on the front and back plates and will be the same for either PVC or Aluminum housing depending on the front and back plates. The standard acrylic front plate version is rated to 175ft. If you go to the aluminum front plate but keep the 1" backplate it would go to 225 and if you go to 1.25" back plate it would be 250ft - and possibly 300 feet after I check on the port ratings. The housing itself would be capable of greater depths so if necessary we just need to evaluate the endplate/port options.

So it breaks down like this

Base price for:
PVC is $3999.00
Aluminum $6200.00

You should also budget $250-375 each for cables/encoder knobs for the Birger mount (Erik hasn't given us those final parameters yet) (Note: Birger mount is $1450 from Birger Engineering.

Add $1500 for external LCD option (LCD housing and cable/connector only -doesn't include the RED LCD. RED LCD is easily removable for normal use.)


For optional frontplates at time of order (i.e. instead of the standard)

Add $900 for aluminum frontplate for deeper rating.
Add $125 for 1.25" backplate for even deeper rating

I should have a glass dome option available in a month or two - probably built on an aluminum front plate - price estimate $1500 to $2000.

24V-250 watt underwater lighting system $1499. Compact SuperNova lamphead and Special thin style battery case for RED housing. can use 50, 75, 100, 150, 200, 250 watt bulbs

You can upgrade to the other backplates or even from the PVC to aluminum later on:

Add $1200 for aluminum frontplate for deeper rating - purchased after original.
Add $ 325 for 1.25" backplate for even deeper rating - purchased after original.

For early adopters:

I will allow early adopters to exchange from PVC to aluminum for the price difference (for now $2200) + $900 exchange fee. I am offering this because I think people have a wrong impression about how good and tough the PVC construction is, and in many ways it is simpler for us in manufacturing since we don't have to go outside for Welding, wait 2 days to 2 weeks for Hardcoat anodizing etc., There is not a problem with getting aluminum - the first five housings ordered have been aluminum so we are well into that manufacturing - I just wanted to give people a chance to think seriously about the PVC option and have a relatively painless way to switch if they ultimately feel it would be better.

*(The Arri Ultraprime 8R is $30K but is readily available for rent and is probably the ultimate underwater lens so may be a desirable option for really high end productio. As far the controls for the 8R, the assumption is that most people will use the Birger mount for Canon EOS or Nikon but I am providing two manual controls so that you could use the Arri 8R for special jobs without having to return the housing to us - it is two pretty simple controls, which I think normally you would just leave the holes plugged and put the controls in - a five minute job - if they were needed. These controls may also work for the RED 18-50 but I need to check that again with my friend's 18-50.)

[Mark Thorpe]

From a few days ago.........need a break from the info overload.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/55_1202988113.jpg

The guy with the camera (Sony V1) is a friend from the UK, Simon Spear, who recently came out to dive the Tiger Sharks of Aliwal Shoals. Luckily on his dive we were accompanied by four Tigers and about 60 Blacktips. Great fun for all the family.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Terry Delahunt]

Hi Mark,

Great shot. What do you call that?..A school of photographers?

You seem to be enjoying yourself in SA?

Cheers,
Terry

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Terry,
Hmmmm, good question. What would a collective of underwater snappers be? Anyone?

SA is great but I tend to enjoy wherever I can get wet and come into contact with the regions signature species as well as the more common and obscure.

It's a way of life.

Cheers,
Mark.

[David Groundwater]

There is an aluminum channel on the bottom which serves as a base as well as holding a weight which can be slid forward and aft to adjust balance.

hi mike,

thanks for update.

what do you estimate this weight will need to be please?

will we be able easily to adjust the housing so that the centre of gravity is bang-slap in the middle and hence we are able to tilt the housing effortlessly?

cheers,

david

[Ken Corben]

Headed South to dunk RED in Mexico next week for a series of tests and training dives with Baja Johnny. We are testing drysuit/sharksuit combinations with our rebreathers for diving in cold water and strong current conditions while shooting 4K UW for a Nat Geo special. Unable to say more at this point other than you've never seen this before and it's very cool :-)

We will be using the Aquavideo prototype PVC housing Atlantis with the RED 18-50 lens for this round of testing. We plan to ND down to the sweet spot of the RED lens this time instead of the f11+ range we have shot thus far except for the manatee footage here:

http://www.mammothhd.com/XRED1/REDL16/MHD_REDL16.html

Shot in 2:1 4K 24fps at 320 ASA with no ND at f5.6 with a RED 18-50 lens under overcast rainy conditions in 2-5 foot vis and the results are amazing.

The Aquavideo pro housing for the Arri 8R with external RED LCD housing will be ready for the humpback shoot the first week of March. This will be a cool test to say the least.


Any guesses what this photo is?

[Michael Hastings]

Sadly, a 49 year old Austrian diver Markus Groh, died after being bitten by a shark on the first day of a shark expedition on Jim Abernethy's Scuba Adventures dive boat, the Shear Water.

Jim, has been running regular shark expeditions to the Bahamas for several years and there has been a certain level of controversy in the past but this is sure to raise a total shit storm in this area.

I don't really want to weigh in too heavily on the controversy, but I would like to clarify a couple points before too much misinformation is put out.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/content/state/epaper/2008/02/25/0225shark.html

1) The bubble blowers should raise a glass to Mr. Groh - a fallen comrade - and offer condolences to his family, and friends. And sympathies to the guests and crew who suffered a very traumatic experience as well.

2) Of fifteen stories that came up in google only one headline got it right that it was off of the Bahamas, the other 14 said it was off of Ft. Lauderdale or Miami, when it actually was 50 miles east - just off Bimini.

3) There may be some politics at work - the Bahamas people have left some pretty harsh impressions. Jim was certainly pushing the envelope on these trips, but there may also have been some resentment that he was "stealing the pootie" to paraphrase Cuba Gooding's Jerry Maguire character by operating out of Riviera Beach, FL - so there wasn't much benefit to the Bahamas.

Wetpixel has a pretty good thread on it:
http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/bahamas-shark-bite-aboard-shear-water-official-thread/

[Frazier Nivens]

I'm so sorry to hear this, sorry for the poor fellow who the accident happened to, it will probably cause some problems with us going to Tiger Beach on March 5th. I'll make sure to wear my chain mail suit when I work with the animals now. I'm just wondering if the trip will still go. Saw that apparently the animal involved was a Bull Shark. But I'll be anxious to hear what really happened and not what's written in the newspaper, aired on TV, or written on the internet.

Since our trip is not with Jim on Shearwater, the trip hopefully will still go but there may be ramifications from the incident. Would be a shame if they try to shut the Tiger Shark diving there down. But I'm certain that all concerned will be quite a bit more cautious and not take the animals for granted now. It can be done safely. I'm sure what happened will weigh heavily on everyone's mind and it won't happen again anytime soon.

Will be anxious to read the details and talk with some people who were actually there.

[Michael Hastings]

Second hand, but pretty reliable hearsay that they had strung out the crates with the chum and the bull shark grabbed a crate, bumped into the diver and then turned and bit diver on the calf. Heard that QuikClot was used, beyond that don't know what first aid was performed.

Just read a reference to the possibility of other cause of death - maybe due to rapid ascent. I doubt if we will know much until coroner's report released and then the rest of the story filters out through the grapevine.

May want to borrow your chain mail suit Frazier - it seems like the sharks generally let go quickly, so chain mail could literally be a lifesaver.

Again, sad for everyone involved.

[Frazier Nivens]

No problem Mike, if you're going call me and you can borrow my chain mail. I've also got a line on some suits if you're interested. Good pricing. I've bought 3 of them in the past and the quality is great. The sharks if they do bite try to let go as soon as possible. They don't like the chain mail at all. Pain in the butt wearing it but it works. But I am going on the trip to Tiger Beach next week unless it gets cancelled due to this accident. I'll be taking the chain mail with me for sure.

I'm sure the guy came up fast, anyone would want to get to the surface fast. Bad situation all around, hopefully it won't affect anyone's shark diving operations and everyone will want to be a bit more cautious.

If you're going over to Stuarts in Nassau, they usually also keep a couple extra sets of chain mail around. I just used his last month when I was there. I'm now considering a helmet to keep my head covered. Better safe that way if you're in the middle of a feeding.

I'm sure that Jim is feeling pretty bad himself. Man, what a bad thing.

[Mark Thorpe]

Sad turn of events. Now watch as the media turns this into a circus. My feelings and condolences go out to the family of the victim.

My observations.
Here in south Africa, as is the case in Jim's trips, people sign a waiver of understanding that diving with large Tiger, and other potentially dangerous sharks, is done so at their own risk. I have seen on so many dives, and it continues to amaze me, the rapidity with which people become complacent when diving with these incredible animals. I have video footage of first time shark divers entering the water with massive concerns only to have them, 20 minutes later, actively finning toward the shark to touch, and stroke the animal, and on occasion hold on to the Dorsal for a quick ride. This should not reflect on the dive operation in a bad light. They do provide cover and safety divers but these guys can't be everywhere at all times. The 'touchy feely' behavior is frowned upon but nonetheless some people do feel an over riding urge to make contact with these animals, literally.

Amongst seasoned shark divers, and its great to see, most individuals show a great respect to the animals but there is also a certain complacency there too. Its a difficult one. I can tell you without any shame that I am cautious at all times when I first get in the water on any given day with any shark species. I personally need some time to see, interact and judge the individual shark(s) before I can suss out their frame of mind etc. Only then do I start filming. A good Tiger shark today can be a bitch to work with tomorrow. I guess they have bad days too!

Nothing comes close to the rush of diving with large predatory animals. By that I don't mean just sharks. A bad day in the office with a Sperm Whale, the largest toothed predator on the planet, almost ended in disaster for me a few years back. However all of these voluntary interactions need to be embarked on with the understanding that the playing fields are not even, especially in the marine environment, the animals definitely call the shots. It's a shame the media World is not as level headed and enlightened as, for the most part, divers and Ocean lovers tend to be who see these animals as the gracious beings they most definitely are.

Again, my condolences to the family.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

ScubaBob asked this over in another thread but I thought it would be useful here.



Another question, I'm a little confused by the references in this thread regarding using the "new paradigm" of shooting RAW (e.g. white balance is not an option - assuming grading will be done later?) and therefore no control for WB is needed. WHAT??? I've have reviewed some of the RAW RED footage (which looks like really stepped down footage) compared to the CC footage, and the color looks great. Will this be a common practice for U/W with RED as well?

MyDivingBlog (http://www.mydivinglife.com/ScubaBob)

Bob, you can set white balance but it doesn't affect your recording AT ALL, it only affects the output at the time, it doesn't change the recorded data, so it makes no difference whatsoever if you set the white balance or not.

Here's why. (This is for illustrative purposes only - technically it may be a little different) Single chip sensors use what is called a Bayer filter - microscopic RED, Green, and Blue filters over the pixels on the sensor. For example in a group of four pixels you would have two pixels covered by green filters, one covered by red, and one covered by blue. The pixels themselves are only reacting to the BRIGHTNESS of the signal, it is only by knowing the pattern of the filters that you can interpolate and reconstruct the color of the image. In a normal single chip video camera the data would be immediately processed, so whatever white balance you selected (and whatever gamma, colorimetry, saturation, highlight rolloff, etc. that the designers selected-and traditionally this is where the "art" of the engineering came in and why people might like the Ikegami, or Sony, or whatever "look") alters those ratios and it is turned into a color signal and then recorded. Once you convert it to RGB and record it, you are very limited with the amount of change you can make without creating noise or other artifacts.

The "RAW" paradigm says "we don't need to process this data right now - let's just store the RAW BRIGHTNESS data and if we wait, we can make major adjustments later without messing things up". You do all of those calculations after the fact and basically you are only playing with the "look" - you always have the raw data - even when you want to output an NTSC or DV or HDCAM or whatever signal you only basically create a copy.

As far as the white balance setting, it only tells the camera to do a quick "debayer" to show a color signal on the LCD/Viewfinder or on the live camera output - but the harddrive or CF card is still just recording the RAW BRIGHTNESS data. It also records the white balance number as METADATA - i.e. just a text code similar to when you look at your digital still photos and if you hit the INFO button it tells you that you shot at F3.5, 1/125 of a second, on Feb 25 at 1:25 PM. But again, that just allows you to set your software to default to that setting when it comes up on your computer screen.

Bottom line is that even though we may give you a white balance control on the housing - IT HAS NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON YOUR RECORDING.

The same is true of other things that you might normally set on on your Z1, HVX200, EX1, HV20, etc. where you have picture profiles so you can choose settings for GAIN, colorimetry, "filmlook" GAMMA, white balance, knee setting (highlight rolloff), saturation, black stretch, etc. NONE OF THOSE THINGS AFFECT YOUR RED "RAW" RECORDING - all of that is done in post processing (REDALERT, REDCINE, FINAL CUT, SCRATCH, ETC.)

It does mean that your footage kind of looks like crap on the computer until you do at least some processing - curves and such - in REDALERT or REDCINE.

Besides the fact that people that are good with color processing can really make your footage look great, it also means your footage can actually get better looking over time as guys like Graeme Nattress and all the other gurus figure out improved algorithms for debayering, noise processing, etc..

In other words, footage that Sharkguy shot last September - even if he had it color graded by a top colorist and it looks great now - could actually get better looking, in terms of noise, sharpness, or color separation, later this year if RED or someone else comes up with a better debayering algorithm.

[Jason Sturgis]

That was a great post Aqua! I am sure it will be useful for a lot of people...including myself. Thanks for that.

[Ken Corben]

Major testing of 4K REDCODE underwater coming up next week. Plan on using build 14, 4k, 16:9 RC28 29.97fps as the project setting.

Built a custom slip on ND filter ring for the Arri 8R and plan to shoot native 320 ASA in the 5.6-8 sweet spot for this lens in clear water with big animals under full sun in depths less than 20 feet exposing for highlights with histogram display on LCD.

Should be very informative after reviewing the footage projected in 4K and the also downrezzed to HQ 1080p prores on the cinetal. Will post findings later the week of March 17th. Also curious to test a cmyk print out of a 4k TIFF frame grab.

Sharky

[David Nardini]

4) PORTS
The beautiful super wide SMP44 optics on the front that maximize the Nikon 104 degree @17mm lens optics and focal lengths. 4K RAW CMOS sensor will see everything UW.


Has anybody tried this ? ie: the SWP44 in front of the Nikon 17-35/2.8 ? I've never owned a SWP44, but I have been suggesting to Mark for some time that this might be an option ... my concern is that the Nikon 17-35 might not close focus enough.
Options :
- shim out the Nikon 17-35/2.8 so that it can use SWP44 (to let it achieve close focus)
- the RED 18-50, which does have CF ability, might also work 'out-of-the-box'

Keep us posted ... :umm:

With regards to manual control of the newer Nikon lenses (eg : the fantastic new 14-21/2.8) there might be a way of controlling the aperture via the aperture actuator level on the back of the lens ... arghhh ... my technician is awaiting the arrival of my RED (as I am). Why none of the Nikon 'dumb' mount solutions have considered incorporated this I do not know (two versions could be provided, one dumb, one with this control ?).
Has anybody else considered this ? (yes, I know Birger will do it for us (in 2020 !) ... but hey, like others ... I'd like get going eh !

Cheers

[Michael Hastings]

Has anybody tried this ? ie: the SWP44 in front of the Nikon 17-35/2.8 ? I've never owned a SWP44, but I have been suggesting to Mark for some time that this might be an option ... my concern is that the Nikon 17-35 might not close focus enough.
Options :
- shim out the Nikon 17-35/2.8 so that it can use SWP44 (to let it achieve close focus)
- the RED 18-50, which does have CF ability, might also work 'out-of-the-box'

Keep us posted ... :umm:

With regards to manual control of the newer Nikon lenses (eg : the fantastic new 14-21/2.8) there might be a way of controlling the aperture via the aperture actuator level on the back of the lens ... arghhh ... my technician is awaiting the arrival of my RED (as I am). Why none of the Nikon 'dumb' mount solutions have considered incorporated this I do not know (two versions could be provided, one dumb, one with this control ?).
Has anybody else considered this ? (yes, I know Birger will do it for us (in 2020 !) ... but hey, like others ... I'd like get going eh !

Cheers

If the SWP44 is the fathom port. It might make good sense if you were already owned it like Mark (Camdiver) and you had the 18-50 and were planning to stick with PL mount. However, the Fathom port is basically an underwater wide converter for converting lenses that are not wide enough like the fixed lenses on a Z1/HVX200.

But even a perfect wide converter only preserves the quality of the prime optic. It is extremely unlikely the Fathom/whatever combination would be better than a direct lens like the 10-22 Canon or 12-24 Nikon behind a good dome port, and might not be as good. And again, if you stuck with PL you would still probably be better off buying a used Zeiss 10mm or 12mm (8-10K) or one of the new russian 9.8mm whenever it is available (supposedly $5-6K) and use it behind a dome.

[Mark Thorpe]

Well, I will have both the 18-50mm, in my accessories order and the SWP44 currently attached to my Gates Z1 housing so if anyone out there wants to supply a test housing we can see if it will work. I have a potential buyer for all of the HDV gear I currently own but I also have Domes and spare domes for the Gates. I might be planing to get a second hand HVX200 as a backup cam but have to wait and see what happens with the coffers. First is to get RED and all accessories sorted and then go from there.

[Michael Hastings]

Well, I will have both the 18-50mm, in my accessories order and the SWP44 currently attached to my Gates Z1 housing so if anyone out there wants to supply a test housing we can see if it will work. I have a potential buyer for all of the HDV gear I currently own but I also have Domes and spare domes for the Gates. I might be planing to get a second hand HVX200 as a backup cam but have to wait and see what happens with the coffers. First is to get RED and all accessories sorted and then go from there.

Mark:

I could probably mate it to either the Honolulu (or Atantis) prototype housing that was setup for the RED 18-50 but would have to get the SWP44 from you and then some specs on the mount (bayonet?) either by measurement or from Paul Remijan ? at Fathom.

[Mark Thorpe]

Mike,
My RED, and I, will be in California in three months. How long would you need the SWP44 and where are you based? I could bring the SWP44 as I may also be selling all of my HDV gear (except the SWP44, maybe).

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Mike,
My RED, and I, will be in California in three months. How long would you need the SWP44 and where are you based? I could bring the SWP44 as I may also be selling all of my HDV gear (except the SWP44, maybe).

Cheers,
Mark.

I'm in Ft. Lauderdale (weston is a suburb about 14 miles west of the FLL airport - 25 miles NW of Miami International)

2265 Columbia
Weston, FL 33326

It is probably an all day project to make a SWP44 frontplate. But it depends a little on getting the bayonet info from Fathom and then fitting a day into the rest of the stuff going on. I would probably want to have it for a week or two.

[Mark Thorpe]

Well let's see if we can make it happen? 117 degree FOV and I have the sucker already. It would be very interesting to see.

I will let you know of my movements as time gets closer.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Guys,
I've made the decision to go PL mount with my system and not with the Birger / Canon deal. That said I'm looking around for a very good PL dedicated Macro lens somewhere around the 100 - 135mm mark. I am one of those feared 'Noobians' with this tech so rip gently.

Thus far lens wise I am going for the Peleng 8mm, a Red 18-50mm and have a Tamron f2.8 90mm on the way. I will get that lens retrofitted with a PL Mount in the U.K. The Peleng will be used sparingly maybe within shipwrecks and fresh water mountain lakes. The 18-50mm a general work horse lense and the Tamron as one solution to a macro app. I want to get real close options too without the need for achromatic diopters etc so please fire away any great glass you may think could work.



You may want to keep an eye out for a 14mm Canon pl mount conversion as it is probably the most cost effective underwater wide lens at about 90 degrees (your 18mm RED is only about 65 degrees). Otherwise you start getting into the Zeiss 10s and 12s at 10K to 15K used or the 8R at 30K.

The 18 RED is about the same wide angle as your Z1 with no conversion so if the fathom can be made to work well it would give the same coverage you have been getting. It would be even more with a 14mm. The big issue will be if the Fathom can be made to work with the physically larger lenses like the 18-50 and such - I suspect that is going to be the problem. (The F900 Amphibicam uses a similar type of optic but is a combination of plastic and glass because of these size issues.) You get into some huge (read very heavy/very expensive) glass elements when you convert larger lenses.

As you can see from all these factors, there's a reason I've been praying to the Birger gods.

I'm up for investigating the Fathom option. It would be helpful if you can post a picture of the back/bayonet end of the fathom port and maybe an approximate measurement of the rear size.

[Jon Corcuera]

Hi all,
I am newbye in underwater shooting but I am doing a short film as DOP in the south coast of spain, and we are going to be 3 to 4 meters down the water with the RED. I don´t need to change the focal or the T-stop, i will do that in the surface.
I will like to know what models of "fishbowl"(thats how we call them in spain) will we need for the RED. Could you give me a couple of examples. Do you know if you see easy to adaptate any from S16 or 35mm?
I am going to be shooting that a week and a half from now and i am a little bit nervous because nobody has done it yet in Spain so there is nobody to ask to and there is not enough money to hire an expert. (thanks for your time)
Jon Corcuera

[Jason Sturgis]

Hi Jon,
I am not sure if I totally understand your question. Are you asking what kind of underwater housings are currently available for the Red camera? Or is it domes that you are looking for? If it is a housing, Aquavideo has one out right now. Others are in the works but the Aquavideo is the only one I know of that has actually been tested with the Red camera. However, Aqua would be better suited to address if one if available- since your shoot is in a week.
I am not sure if that gets to your question. Good luck with your production.

[Jon Corcuera]

My question goes more into, what dome could I be using or adaptate for the red camera?. From the already existent. Because I have to get one an try to adaptate for the RED, since there is not yet any. Maybe some of you guys that have got a similar problem the first time you use a camera can chim up.
Since is a low budget short we can be buying or renting from the USA so I have to adapt an existing one in Spain.
Jon Corcuera

[Michael Hastings]

Jon:

The Red is quite a bit different from other cameras so it may be difficult to adapt to another housing quickly. On the other hand, since you are shooting RAW you don't need much in the way of controls so if it fits in another housing you are good.

I think the "fishbowl" refers to the pretty scary practice of putting a camera into an aquarium-like box (open at the top) for shooting downward into a pool or shallow water.

We have a suitable full underwater housing here already completed that has been used on several rentals (typically $550/day) but I understand that may not be feasible for your shoot.

[David Nardini]

I'm up for investigating the Fathom option. It would be helpful if you can post a picture of the back/bayonet end of the fathom port and maybe an approximate measurement of the rear size.

Mike (Mark),

If you can get the RED 18-50 hood off (I gather it unscrews) it should work :biggrin: most probably end up being a variable fixed focus ...
Make it so you can 'drop-in' an ND in between and you should be good to go Mark ...

Keep us posted ...

[David Nardini]

Mike,
a couple of images attached of a unit i tried to purchase a while back (missed my chance) ... I'll leave Mark to let you know dimensions.
Cheers

[Michael Hastings]

Mike (Mark),

If you can get the RED 18-50 hood off (I gather it unscrews) it should work :biggrin: most probably end up being a variable fixed focus ...
Make it so you can 'drop-in' an ND in between and you should be good to go Mark ...

Keep us posted ...

It is an extension zoom, I don't have one myself but if I remember right the RED 18-50 extends an inch or so, unlike typical video zooms for which the fathom was designed (like the Z1). Seems like you would probably have to lock it at the wide position, get it close to the Fathom, and then not be able to zoom or it would physically hit the back of the Fathom optics. Not necessarily a deal killer, but reduced utility.

From your pictures of the Fathom, both the optic and the bayonet are pretty deep so going to take a fairly heavy and deep ring on the front plate. David, if it works with the 18-50, I think it is going to be borderline practical and only make sense if you already have one. trying to make it work is more of a curiosity to me.

[David Nardini]

... RED 18-50 extends an inch or so ...

BUM ...



... both the optic and the bayonet are pretty deep ...

DOUBLE BUM ... :waaa:

[Michael Hastings]

BUM ...

DOUBLE BUM ... :waaa:

As I said in an earlier post - there's a reason I keep praying to the Birger gods. It ain't fanboy-love. A working Birger mount really would make underwater life a LOT easier/cheaper. And it's not just us - I'm pretty sure GATES is all over it too.

BTW I posted on other thread: Spoke to Erik this morning. He said he would have the first 10 done next week and volume shipping the following week. As a BETA tester, that also let Erik use my camera for several weeks, I think I'm in that first batch so will post comments, pics, as soon as I get it.

[Ken Corben]

The RED Drives are awesome. They exceeded all my field testing this week. Open seas on a RIB boat, multiple booting, data transfers, reformatting...Blah, blah, blah.

Nice work RED Team

[GATES]

Greetings to all,

Some comments on the use of a Super Wide port with RED:

* The Super Wide (Fathom) port is a converter optic that retains full zoom through. The wide angle image is 100-120 degrees FOV rectilinear. Distortion is virtually nonexistent. Depth of field is *very* large. This performance is only achieved by designing and testing for compatibility with specific cameras.

* Gates current Super Wide ports are for optics in cameras like the Z1, HVX200, EX1, etc. RED lenses are different. While compatibility with RED lenses is unlikely we will examine some candidates carefully and hope for a combination that meets Gates standard of image quality.

* Domes, by comparison, have tradeoffs. The optical physics of a dome underwater means inherent corner distortions as FOV and chip size increases. Depth of field is narrower, and there is little or no zoom through capability. It's essentially a wide angle-only option. But domes are inexpensive, readily adaptable and field replaceable.

* DEEP RED port options will include a Dome port (like every Gates housing) and Flat (macro) port with provisions to place them at the optimal position for a given RED/Canon/Nikon lens. A Super Wide port is planned as well, even if a new design supporting a specific lens (like the RED 18-50) is required.

J-

[Pawel Achtel]

Greetings to all,

Some comments on the use of a Super Wide port with RED:

* The Super Wide (Fathom) port is a converter optic that retains full zoom through. The wide angle image is 100-120 degrees FOV rectilinear. Distortion is virtually nonexistent. Depth of field is *very* large. This performance is only achieved by designing and testing for compatibility with specific cameras.

* Gates current Super Wide ports are for optics in cameras like the Z1, HVX200, EX1, etc. RED lenses are different. While compatibility with RED lenses is unlikely we will examine some candidates carefully and hope for a combination that meets Gates standard of image quality.



On the other hand Fathom optic have very poor contrast, flare easily and show considerable CA. I wouldn't present them as anything superior to a dome port. I seriously doubt any benefit of shooting 4k with Fathom as I am yet to see any evidence of being able to perform well even at 2k. Amphibicam comes to mind.

The one significant shortcoming of a dome: curvature of image field, can be controlled by the relative size of the dome and by stepping down.

Domes also don't have significant distortions. But, can be only used with fixed focal-length lens as the entrance pupil changes position while zooming.

If you are aiming at Gates housing supporting Red wide zoom (18-50) through a dome, how would you control the correct entrance pupil position?

Considering Gates housings are mechanical, how would you accomodate for camera position change to allow other lenses?

And what is the size of the dome going to be?

Pawel
www.achtel.com

[cinepost35]

Well stated Pawel....... Gates makes great housings but they have always seemed to fall short when it comes to optics IMHO.

[Pawel Achtel]

Well stated Pawel....... Gates makes great housings but they have always seemed to fall short when it comes to optics IMHO.

I think it is a general problem, not just Gates. Fathom is used by both Amphibico and Gates and, frankly, it sucks. The contrast loss is simply not acceptable for any serious work and flare is more akin to a kaleidoscope than a professional lens.

Having said that, it is very difficult to adapt a wide angle terrestial lens for underwater. It takes many compromises and optimisations.

At the end of the day, it largely depends what is that you are willing to sacrifice:


MTF
CA
Distortions
Resolution
Flatness of image plane (corners out of focus)
Zoom through capability
Angle of view
Usable aperture range
Lens interchangability
Size
Cost


You need to sacrifice several of the above, there is no silver bullet. And, the sacrifices are quite severe - more severe than most people think.

For example, Howard Halls's Coral Sea Adventure has corner resolution LOWER than a VHS on wide u/w shots, even though it was shot in IMAX format. You would actually get better result shooting on 2/3" or 1/2" HD chip, not because of the recording format, but because small dome does not work well on large image plane of 70mm film. But...people (specially the executive types) still call it IMAX.

I am currently settling to use 14mm Zeiss Master Prime and no other lens for wide angle. It would also work in VERY limited aperture range. I believe this is as wide as one can go underwater without severely bastardizing the image :ranting2: .

Pawel
www.achtel.com

[Mark Thorpe]

The Fathoms SWP44 was good enough for the BBC throughout their blue chip productions Blue Planet and Planet Earth. It was also good enough for Doug Allan in Tonga whilst filming Humpbacks. I've had zero reason to question the performance of mine throughout the two years I have used it.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

Considering Gates housings are mechanical, how would you accomodate for camera position change to allow other lenses?

Pawel
www.achtel.com
As far as I can figure that one out I think it was mentioned that the core housing will be developed around the Canon EF-S10-22mm with the Birger mount. There may also be a system designed around the RED lenses but no confirmation. For all other lens usage the shooter would have to purchase a shim designed specifically for that lens. The Dome would fit on the end via a universal fitting for the housing and shims. Pretty similar to the SUBAL DSLR housings when the user wants to go from a wide to macro setting.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S John, feel free to jump in here.

[cinepost35]

For example, Howard Halls's Coral Sea Adventure has corner resolution LOWER than a VHS on wide u/w shots, even though it was shot in IMAX format. You would actually get better result shooting on 2/3" or 1/2" HD chip, not because of the recording format, but because small dome does not work well on large image plane of 70mm film. But...people (specially the executive types) still call it IMAX.

Pawel
www.achtel.com[/QUOTE]

The new 3D IMAX film "Wild Ocean" all the underwater sequences I understand were shot in Digital 2/3" to SR in 3D. I saw it in London recentely and it looked amazing. Not sure what the final process was by the DP but the film fills the frame unlike the trailer and whatever process they used to film out to IMAX looked like it was shot on IMAX. It was a great film too.

www.wildoceanfilm.com

[cinepost35]

it would be nice if Gates made it more adaptable to more lenses. You just pay for the version you want. Berger/Nikon, Arri, Cooke, or Fathom whatever you fancy and/or is acceptable to that users creative or budget. I'm guesing the few folks that are using more expensive glass will have such specific needs they will probably just want custom housings anyway and not something off the shelf. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[Ken Corben]

Seems like there are some brighter folk on this forum re lens and dome performance than I am so I'll only add a frame grab from a recent 8R lens shoot as an example. I would guess that the Birger with the Canon 10-22 is going to be a great solution for many of us.

If going PL primes the Zeiss/Arri 8 - 18mm lenses are proven work horses UW. I have shot them all. The 8R is by far my favorite. This lens, behind an Aquatica 8" dome on an Aquavideo housing, enabled me to get an underwater RED 4K sequence of 8 humpback whales during a courtship event. Pretty unbelievable. I have attached a low rez frame grab.

If you look closely there are 6 males in the frame grab taken from the beginning of the shot. The entire sequence is made possible by the 8R lens and Mike Hasting's incredible help in getting the housing ready for the trip.

BTW - this is an ungraded frame grab straight out of RED ALERT - no color correction etc. The graded stuff played in proress 422 is SWEET...

[Ken Corben]

These photos I post for my mates Mark (Camdiver) and Baja Johnny. They really hate my wetsuit so I thought I'd rub it in with the UW 4K camera system working the humpback whales. The whales seemed to like my suit guys :-)

[Ken Corben]

Rather simple, light weight and painless set up for underwater field recording in 4K and backing up. I used an Apple lap top with dual Western Digital 1 terrabyte drives to back up the RED drive footage then LTO 4 at the studio to archive the footage.

The RED LCD, RED battery and RED drive all fit in the prototype Aquavideo housing with an Arri 8R lens behind an 8" dome.



Extra camera body is a safety back up.

[cinepost35]

Looks like the Bahamas... Great place to shoot Humpbacks. Thanks for sharing your bts pics and setup. Nice simple setup.

[Mark Thorpe]

These photos I post for my mates Mark (Camdiver) and Baja Johnny. They really hate my wetsuit so I thought I'd rub it in with the UW 4K camera system working the humpback whales. The whales seemed to like my suit guys :-)Well that's all that matters mate. Keep pushing that envelope. I also know some big fish around these parts that will lurv our 'Yum Yum Yellow' suit. Don't worry, I'll make sure I get the shredding ceremony on film.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Pawel Achtel]

Seems like there are some brighter folk on this forum re lens and dome performance than I am so I'll only add a frame grab from a recent 8R lens shoot as an example. I would guess that the Birger with the Canon 10-22 is going to be a great solution for many of us.

If going PL primes the Zeiss/Arri 8 - 18mm lenses are proven work horses UW. I have shot them all. The 8R is by far my favorite. This lens, behind an Aquatica 8" dome on an Aquavideo housing, enabled me to get an underwater RED 4K sequence of 8 humpback whales during a courtship event. Pretty unbelievable. I have attached a low rez frame grab.

If you look closely there are 6 males in the frame grab taken from the beginning of the shot. The entire sequence is made possible by the 8R lens and Mike Hasting's incredible help in getting the housing ready for the trip.

BTW - this is an ungraded frame grab straight out of RED ALERT - no color correction etc. The graded stuff played in proress 422 is SWEET...

Indeed looks like a nice encounter.

However, picture quality does not exceed average DV footage; very poor contrast and I can't see more than 150 maybe 200 lines of vertical resolution there. Nothing personal, but I think your frame grab well ilustrates my point: even the best lens can be severely compromised underwater.

Cheers,

Pawel
www.achtel.com

[Pawel Achtel]

The Fathoms SWP44 was good enough for the BBC throughout their blue chip productions Blue Planet and Planet Earth. It was also good enough for Doug Allan in Tonga whilst filming Humpbacks. I've had zero reason to question the performance of mine throughout the two years I have used it.

Cheers,
Mark.

Glad it works for you, Doug and the BBC.

I took liberty to attach some frame grabs form one of the productions that you mentioned for ilustrative purpose. I think they need no comment. :sick:

Cheers,

Pawel
www.achtel.com

Fine Print: The attached frames are copyright BBC. They have been used here for review purpose only.

[Ken Corben]

Sorry I wasn't clearer in my post re resolution. Pawel is absolutely right about the apparent picture quality from the posted frame grab - my bad - this is user error. Believe me, it is definitely not the camera or len's image quality I'm showing. The posted frame grab is an export of an ungraded 4K RAW frame from RED ALERT to a TIFF that is then opened in photoshop where I change it to 8 bit then resize to a max 1024 pixels and save as a low quality jpg for posting here on reduser. I do not know the math but that is an exponential decrease in resolution to say the least. I did not do any of the color correction, sharpening, contrast manipulation or other image control options of the 4K RAW footage. This is a RAW image straight out of the camera. So image quality was not my intent nor do I profess to be the post guru on how to do this.

Just wanted to share what the 8R covers rectilinearly behind an 8" dome at f5.6 with a hyperfocal distance setting and get any input from Pawel, John (GATES), Mike (Aquavideo) and the other users here that know the lens theories better than I. I can say that any other lens, even the Zeiss 10mm, would not have captured all 8 of the humpback whales underwater in one frame during this courtship event from as close as I was able to get, i.e., minimizing water column between subject and lens.

BTW - A 4K TIFF file of a frame grab is > 45 mb and can not be hosted on reduser or I would have done so for better analysis. If any one has an idea on how to do this so we can all get a look at a true underwater 4K frame grab let me know and I'll provide one.


Indeed looks like a nice encounter.

However, picture quality does not exceed average DV footage; very poor contrast and I can't see more than 150 maybe 200 lines of vertical resolution there. Nothing personal, but I think your frame grab well ilustrates my point: even the best lens can be severely compromised underwater.

Cheers,

Pawel
www.achtel.com

[Ken Corben]

Well that's all that matters mate. Keep pushing that envelope. I also know some big fish around these parts that will lurv our 'Yum Yum Yellow' suit. Don't worry, I'll make sure I get the shredding ceremony on film.

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark - I said I was cheap but I didn't say I was retarded. My shark gear is all black. Sorry to cheat you out of a great shot but shooting 4K tigers with you will not be in a yellow armed suit. Good to know you think like a true pro though :-)

[Mark Thorpe]

Glad it works for you, Doug and the BBC.

I took liberty to attach some frame grabs form one of the productions that you mentioned for ilustrative purpose. I think they need no comment.
Cheers,

Pawel
www.achtel.com
The first pull of a Basking shark is understandably challenging due simply to the environmental conditions. Not known to hang out in clear tropical water I motion that any lens will have a difficult time in achieving the image quality that you so heavily attribute to your work. For the second grab I cannot believe that this is shot with an SWP44 for the reason that the reflection in the image is not conducive to any of the flip filter holder charcteristics, in color or diameter, of the Gates Z1 Housing. We all know that if a scene is played out in challenging conditions it is the value to the scientific world which far outweighs the image quality. If this was Hollywood it would be different. Natural History can be a bitch at times.

Having visited your web site I am obviously in awe of your work. Having, quote, "owned and has been using cinema-grade high definition cameras underwater since 2001 - long before the BBC even knew what an HDCAM camera was!" I can only aspire to attaining similar success as yourself. I look forward with haste to your continued, and valued, feedback.

Regards,
Mark.

[Pawel Achtel]

Having visited your web site I am obviously in awe of your work. Having, quote, "owned and has been using cinema-grade high definition cameras underwater since 2001 - long before the BBC even knew what an HDCAM camera was!" I can only aspire to attaining similar success as yourself. I look forward with haste to your continued, and valued, feedback.


Thanks Mark.

It was actually a very funny story at the expense of one (very well known) person from Bristol, who can be named :bleh:, but I just chose not to :matrix:

This was in late 2002 and went something like this:

Pawel: I just came back from a scientific expedition to Raja Ampat Islands. The reefs we found are the richest in the World. We found both the biggest diversity of corals and fishes. We also found several new species. I shot extensive amount of footage in HDCAM format there. Would this be of interest?

The Producer: Sure. What was that format, again? I didn't catch that.

Pawel: HDCAM

The Producer: Pardon me, can you spell this for me?

Pawel: H-D-C-A-M

The Producer: Er, Ok, Whatever, Can you please transfer it to Super 16 so we could have a look at it here?

Pawel: Sorry, I think I got wrong phone number. (or something to this effect)

The moral is: No need to rush with your DPX files to Bristol anytime soon.

Good luck with the whales.

Cheers,

Pawel
www.achtel.com

[GATES]

Good day,

Some comments and to better articulate the port strategy for DEEP RED:

* Gates' philosophy is to provide the underwater cameraman with the tools needed for the job. This extends to offering various ports from which to choose to suit your production requirements/shooting conditions/personal style. If you prefer a wide lens behind a dome port, great. If a Super Wide is your choice, we have that too.

* DEEP RED will have a shell section between port and main housing that will change depending on your lens of choice. This means we can accommodate a wide variety of lenses and position the Dome Port at the optimal location for that lens.

* The first targeted lenses are the RED 18-50, Canon 10-22/Birger and Nikon 14-24/Birger. Other lens support will follow depending on popularity. On a custom basis we will support individual, 'one off' lenses in DEEP RED.

J-

[Mark Thorpe]

Thanks for clarifying that John.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

For a month there were very few posts on the Bubble blowers, so I switch from DSL to Cable internet and lose the internet for the weekend, come back and there's 3 pages! Seems like underwater lens ports create almost endless debate.

Strictly speaking Pawel is correct in most of the factual things he says regarding dome ports even though I think he is a little harsh in his opinions about it.

The facts are that the dome in contact with water creates a curved field much like that of a diopter-type close up lens - which is one reason using diopters to compensate for the refocusing of the dome isn't as bad as it might otherwise be. Since it is a curved field, if you use a truly rectilinear lens and take a picture of a flat chart your corners will be out of focus if you don't have sufficient depth of field. The good news is that we generally use the widest available lens to reduce the amount of water between lens and subject and the other characteristic of extreme wide lenses is extreme depth of field - so quite often what might otherwise be out of focus, will be in focus because of depth of field - often even wide open or nearly wide open, but definitely as you get to higher F-stops.

The other factor is that you are rarely shooting a flat field subject. Often you are shooting an animal or person in the open where the corners are mostly just water so you can't notice it. Even when shooting a macro subject like an anemone, where you fill the frame, it is hard to tell if the corner softness is a curved field issue or just out of focus due to shallow DOF. So in most cases even if you don't have perfect edge to edge focus your eye tends to gravitate to the center, in focus, part - much more so in underwater than in regular movies.

The truth of it is that it all varies based on the dome size, the particular lens used, the position of the lens in the dome etc. But generally speaking a six to eight inch dome with a good wide angle lens placed reasonably close to the optimum position in the dome (and there is a pretty decent tolerance for being off) will provide excellent results - and have been providing excellent results for many, many years of shooting with high end still photography, 35mm motion picture photography, HDCam, Varicam, HDV, etc.

As Gates has pointed out, the Fathom style port is geared most closely to the prosumer size and style of lenses. For the most part any type of optic beyond the dome port is going to need to be fairly closely designed to a particular lens, is going to need to be physically fairly large for lenses designed for an S35 sensor, and thus - even just in terms of the grinding of large glass elements - will be quite expensive - not to mention the extensive design work that would go into it. So for example if you accept that the Arri 8R is the best available superwide optic for underwater work (which I believe it is) - a specialized underwater optic port would probably have to be priced in the $20K to $30K range if you made say 25 units, with a $150K+ development budget. If someone wants to fund that project, I will pursue it. (my brother is a senior manager in the Electro-optical division of Raytheon and can probably get us access to the worlds finest optical engineers, even beyond the Zeiss people). But I doubt if it makes much sense since you are still likely only to get a slight increase over using the 8R behind a dome port. And even the jump between using still camera lenses like the 10-22 to the 8R is probably not justifiable for most people - since the 10-22 or similar lenses are likely to give results on a par or better than we have been seeing in high end movie or still photography over the last 30 years. A Fathom type optic might be feasible for something fairly small like a still zoom or the RED 18-50 but the added cost of even the smaller Fathom ports is $5K or so and probably would be better spent getting a used Zeiss 12mm.

IMHO the hierarchy is:

1) HDV-type systems behind dome
2) HDV-type systems behind Fathom type optic
3) HDCAM & Varicam systems with 5.5 mm Fuji/Canon HD lens behind dome
4) HDCAM & Varicam systems with 4.7 mm Fuji/Canon HD lens behind dome
5) (maybe) HDCAM & Varicam systems with 4.7 mm behind amphibicam type optic. I say maybe because I haven't seen direct comparison evidence that it is truly better than item 4.
5/6) older pl mount lenses like kinoptic on a RED behind dome
7) 10-22 EF-S with birger mount behind dome
8) (maybe) 14mm prime on birger behind dome
9) Hopefully someday 9 or 10mm prime still lens on Birger behind dome
10) Zeiss 10 or 12mm pl mount behind dome (10mm too big*)
11) Zeiss 8R behind dome.
12) Zeiss 8R behind special underwater optic (at $200K for first one)

What we tried to do with the housing we are making already is to allow any of the 5 thru 11 options by using a port system with a 143mm opening and readily available 6 and 8 inch domes as well as multiple flat port options. *All except the 10mm will work either directly or with a simple extension ring. The 10mm zeiss is physically too large and would require a special frontplate (not that hard).

I suspect we will find the Superwide Still lenses provide us very impressive quality. We can squeeze a little more quality by spending quite a bit more on the Cine lenses - but at least that investment is in highly desirable Cine glass as opposed to investing an extreme amount of money in special underwater optics.

[GATES]

The target Nikon lens for initial support in DEEP RED is the 12-24 DX, not the new 14-24.

J-

[Mark Thorpe]

OK so some of you may know that I love to shoot macro, even though my clients keep trying to feed me to the big fish!!

That said I have just found this (http://www.vividlight.com/articles/2914.htm) lens offering from Canon. It shows that the Iris actuates with a telescoping action of the lens so the main question is would this be a viable option for RED using a flat port(s)? I guess I would need to get actual measurements to see if the lens could fit behind one flat port and still be able to be used through to 5x due to the reduced DoF at each increment. It would sure be a challenge.

Pygmy Sea Horses as five times life size.

Thoughts?
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Mark:

Your post was looking a little lonely so I thought I would give a quick response.

We are just now getting into some tests for macro stuff. Canon/Birger is still going to be the slickest method but we are also looking for some PL options for Ken Corben's housing.

As far as ports, we already have availability of multiple lengths of macro ports for our housing, using the Aquatica ports.

One of the biggest issues will be getting close enough to be able to do 5x macro with a 65mm lens - I haven't checked but I think you have to get REALLY close. That's why I have been looking at the Canon 100 and some longer macro lenses.

The other issue is gearing for PL type lenses. There are definitely ways to do it - but it is going to be expensive because it is pretty fussy work. That is why I keep harping on Birger. It really solves a lot of issues because you can leave the camera in the same spot in the housing and switch to any of 50 canon lenses of any length and you still have iris and focus control. All you need is an appropriate port - which we can accommodate today with off the shelf components.





OK so some of you may know that I love to shoot macro, even though my clients keep trying to feed me to the big fish!!

That said I have just found this (http://www.vividlight.com/articles/2914.htm) lens offering from Canon. It shows that the Iris actuates with a telescoping action of the lens so the main question is would this be a viable option for RED using a flat port(s)? I guess I would need to get actual measurements to see if the lens could fit behind one flat port and still be able to be used through to 5x due to the reduced DoF at each increment. It would sure be a challenge.

Pygmy Sea Horses as five times life size.

Thoughts?
Mark.

[mike luzansky]

Well, I finally got the email 2 days ago that my red is about ready for delivery...now I just need the housing since I never seem to shoot anything topside! I just want to get the RED underwater with some Tigers or Bulls.

[mike luzansky]

Im curious from those of you currently shooting the camera, what lenses you have tested topside, and which you expect to use underwater. My intent is to take delivery of the camera with the 18-50. However, having been a Nikon shooter for years, I have a large arsenal of Nikon lenses, and as a Canon dealer, I have access to plenty of Canon lenses.

I'm curious from those with a lil RED experience if I would be best suited holding off on getting the 18-50 and just shoot the Nikon lenses with the adapter. Obviously there will be support for the 18-50 in the Gates housing, so the lens will surely get use...but I dont mind saving $6,500 right now.

Any thoughts or ideas??

[Pawel Achtel]

Any thoughts or ideas??

I'm getting Zeiss 14mm Master Prime for wide end. Haven't decided which one for closeup yet.

Pawel
www.achtel.com

[Michael Hastings]

Im curious from those of you currently shooting the camera, what lenses you have tested topside, and which you expect to use underwater. My intent is to take delivery of the camera with the 18-50. However, having been a Nikon shooter for years, I have a large arsenal of Nikon lenses, and as a Canon dealer, I have access to plenty of Canon lenses.

I'm curious from those with a lil RED experience if I would be best suited holding off on getting the 18-50 and just shoot the Nikon lenses with the adapter. Obviously there will be support for the 18-50 in the Gates housing, so the lens will surely get use...but I dont mind saving $6,500 right now.

Any thoughts or ideas??

Mike:

I think besides the cost, you will find that the ease of controlling the Canon (or Nikon later) lenses via the Birger mount will be the slickest way to handle focus and iris AND more importantly being able to use a wide range of lenses i.e. going from say 10-22mm at 3.5 inches or so to a long macro like the 100 or 180mm that is over 7 inches long. With the Canon/Birger you just change the lens and the port and no headaches. With a manual pl or manual nikon you have the whole gearing issue.

We have incorporated simple controls for the RED 18-50 and my Arri/Zeiss 12mm and are now getting Ken Corben's housing set up with some very slick gears for his Ultraprime 8R. But the gearing is fairly expensive and unless all of your lenses are about the same size you have some significant headaches in using them with different lenses.

Also, regarding my earlier post - yesterday I bought a Sigma 18-50 Macro which has the same focal length and close focus capabilities as the RED 18-50 so I could do some image size tests. At 50mm, to fill the frame with myBMW car key (about 2.5 - 3 inches long) I had to have it just 3" from the front of the lens. I could move back to about a foot to fill the frame with a paperback book. So I think the 18-50 will be fine for mid-size fish shots, but it would probably be a little tough to get close enough to get the tiny stuff. I think we will need a 100mm macro or even the 180mm macro to get those shots, and again this where being able to easily go from short lenses to long lenses on the Birger mount is pretty cool.

[Ed Sauer]

Our Red One showed up 3 weeks before the big two week underwater shoot! After a few sleepless nights, finishing all the underwater housing parts with an hour and 1/2 to spare, we left for the air port. And so it happened that Ed Sauer and his wife Sandra of Watering Life Productions & Design, LLC dove the Red One fitted with a Nikon mount, 17-35mm lens, LCD and a Red Raid all tucked into its custom underwater housing for 34 hours and recorded 40 gig a day. Try that with an 8 gig SD card! Below are some pictures of the happy duo, Ed and the Red One!

[David Mutchler]

That's pretty cool. Any chance I can borrow it?

[Ed Sauer]

I am using one Red battery in the housing. It will last for 2 one hour dives, but the camera is not on the whole time. It usually runs down to about 30%.
Yes because of the slow start up time,80 sec. with Build 15, I missed a shot of a bottlenose dolphin with a turtle in the foreground. You could tie 2 batteries together with a Y cable but you add more length and weight to the housing. It just depends upon how long you want it to run. I never timed it but probably had 90 min run time per charge.

The most I recorded in one day was 100 gig. I am not sure of the run time of the video but it seemed that it was a lot of video. It was more video than I usually shoot.

[Clark Dunbar]

Hey Ed,

Look forward to seeing the footage!

[Ken Corben]

For those of you lucky enough to be using the red under water, how are you finding the battery life? I heard it only lasts an hour. Is it possible to piggy back the batteries?
One obvious way to improve battery life is to turn the camera off, but with a 35sec start up, its not that handy for wildlife.

How much 4k can you record to the hard drive? Or for that matter hi-speed 2k?

Cheers

I have found that with build 14 I am getting from the battery a 1% = 1 minute standby time with the fan set to HOT (runs continuously). This setting has worked great with out sensor overheating or the need for an interior cooling system. This means I count on an 80 min standby time. Recording obviously consumes more power using the RED drive and LCD. Two batteries on a y would be a bit to big. The quick change battery/drive plate in the Aquavideo pro housing is pretty slick - I pretty much switch to a fresh battery every dive and have great results.

I tried the power down conservation technique and missed some critical shots recently with the current boot up time. That 70-90 seconds is an eternity when the action is happening. The good comes with the bad.

RED drive record time is impressive. Formatted 320 GB drive records approx 3 hours of 4K. I have not shoot 2K or 3K underwater yet but te record times for the RED VBR compression is exponential. This means to me more record time than I would actually commit to a single drive.

[Michael Hastings]

I posted elsewere asking about the pre-roll which is a really useful function underwater. I didnt get a very clear response. I understand that it is a feature of the camera, its just not enabled yet. Is this true?

Prerecord or retroloop (as Ikegami calls it) is a great function. I have lost track of whether RED has ever officially said they would provide it. However, it is basically just a function of constantly writing to the drive like a TIVO or the Ikegami hard drives do and then pressing record is merely telling it to actually put a name and location specification to it. It is a lot easier to do with a hard drive than a tape based setup that needs a memory buffer and has to write it out to tape. So I think we will eventually see it once RED gets the announced features implemented and debugged and has a little breathing space to created some of the extra goodies.

[Michael Hastings]

We have begun shipping the aluminum version of the AquaVideo RED housing. Photos attached.

Items to note:

We had to do a lot of trimming of aluminum to get the weight down (Hence the eight flats) to where there is some positive bouyancy - approximately 2 lbs. positive. As you can see from the frontal photo the housing is about as compact as it can be to fit the camera and the connectors. The lens shown is the Canon 10-22mm. A cine lens like the Arri 8R takes up nearly the entire front of the housing. Going to a rectangular shape would actually increase the volume.

The top has two short u channels about two and half inches long with 8 threaded holes on the top and 2 threaded holes on each side for attaching a carrying handle, lights/light arms, external LCD monitor, meter, etc. These are sort of mini "cheeseplates" and the 2 u channels are welded on so the holes between them are exactly 12 inches to allow mounting handles, or we also have available a longer cheeseplate if necessary.

The bottom is not shown but is a 12" u channel with 18 threaded holes on the bottom and 7 on each side for tripod mounting or any other need. It also allows the use of a small sliding weight to adjust trim.

The side handle "wings" provide multiple holes for mounting the handles in your preferred position. The handles can be mounted upward or downward (or both) to your preference. The wings also have an oval machined in them to make a solid handgrip to allow easy grabbing for pulling out of the water, transport, etc. (and again it lightened the overall housing). There also multiple threaded holes for mounting lights, Lcd, etc. if you prefer that location. Larger plastic wings can be attached for even greater stability.

The camera mounts on a long slide in plate held in place by two 1/2-20 thumbscrews. The plate holds the camera, a RED battery plate, a slot for the REDDRIVE and a mount for mounting the LCD internally. Since it only adds about 3/4", all housings are setup to allow internal mounting of the LCD. So Everyhing goes in and out of the housing on a single tray. Even for those getting the external LCD case it is useful for certain types of shooting where you want to minimize drag.

As you can see the LCD is easily visible through the rear and you can even see the camera LCD if you angle it right.

The port system is a standard Aquatica, with the larger thread mount that allows use of everything from the Canon 10-22 on a birger mount to the Arri 8R (most cine lenses are much too big to be used with any of the bayonet style underwater SLR ports) as well as long telephoto/macro lenses.

BTW Erik was at the REDUSER NAB party with a working current version of the Birger mount and it worked extremely well, very smooth.

The standard controls are power, start/stop, focus assist, and white balance if you want it even though it doesn't do anything to the recording, and a front control that can either do zoom for the Canon 10-22 (and probably others) as well as provide simple iris/focus control of the PL mount Arri 12mm T2.1 which works well and is available virtually anywhere from rental houses. Focus and iris controls for the Birger mount will be included at no extra charge but you will have to purchase the encoders - price not set yet but probably $500 -$800 for the pair. We will also probably be switching to an electronic start stop as it makes it easier to get the camera in and out without snagging the connectors on the start/stop control. A manual control will also be available as a spare/backup which if necessary could be installed in a matter of minutes.

Control of other PL or manual lenses is available on a custom basis. Simple friction controls are relatively inexpensive. Geared controls will be quite expensive - probably several thousand dollars.

[Michael Hastings]

See previous post for main photos and description.

[Michael Hastings]

See previous posts for main photos and description.

That's my brother Tom with the housing at the beach. Nephew Sean is shooting his film school final with RED #206 this week and last.

[David Groundwater]

i spent 4 days shooting underwater with an aquavideo aluminium housing in the philippines a couple of weeks ago and it has a great feel to it - the centre of gravity is just about right in the middle and it handles well at any orientation.

it was still somewhat a prototype and is back with mike now being finished - he really had to rush to get it ready for me and i picked it up from his place in miami.

i can't wait to get it back.

thanks for all your efforts, mike.

cheers,

david groundwater

[conrad gaunt]

My sisters husband was told last year he has the only known footage of hammerhead sharks breeding (according to N.Geographic), could this be true? He`s gone with the XD cam (before Red),and he`ll build his own enclosure for it. I`ve seen some amazing stuff (70m, at night, BIG sharks!). Can`t wait to see some aqua Red.

[Pawel Achtel]

Good to see some new tupperware from Aquavideo.

Can 10-22 under Aquatica plastic-thingy resolve more than 1k underwater?

Aquatica dome is known to flare like kaleidospe, has massive CA and poor contrast. May as well put a VHS camera inside.

Can we see some charts shot underwater and topside to compare? 1:1 corner crops would be of particular interest.

[Michael Hastings]

Good to see some new tupperware from Aquavideo.

Can 10-22 under Aquatica plastic-thingy resolve more than 1k underwater?

Aquatica dome is known to flare like kaleidospe, has massive CA and poor contrast. May as well put a VHS camera inside.

Can we see some charts shot underwater and topside to compare? 1:1 corner crops would be of particular interest.

Are we starting this again, Pawel? (For those of you that haven't been around this thread since its early days you can go back a few hundred posts and search other threads to see a long winded, fairly obnoxious discussion of the world's greatest underwater optics - as well as other posts with some fairly insightful in depth discussions of u/w optics in general)

The AquaVideo RED housing can easily accommodate any underwater optic you like via the standard frontplate or relatively simple modification. The Aquatica ports were chosen for the stock setup because they in fact work quite well and have physical advantages that allow use of both the Canon lenses and cine lenses like the Arri 8R.

We have an 8" glass dome option coming in the next couple months - not aquatica although we have access to their 9" glass dome too. In fact at DEMA last fall I made arrangements with the other manufacturers like Aquatica, Seacam, Subal, etc. to buy their glass domes as an oem and accommodate them on our RED housing - including the large dome you raved about in your earlier posts. Pricing would be $1500 - $2500 for any of the versions out there with an additional $500 to $1500 to incorporate it into the frontplate. We also have direct access to the manufacturer that makes most of the raw glass domes which we can get in sizes up to about 18" diameter full dome. The 8" glass dome we are getting made in conjunction with another company is said to have even better coatings, but the truth is they all have a degree of flare, CA, etc,. Short of fairly complex multiple element, dedicated underwater corrective optics - which would likely cost more than the RED and a housing combined - that is the nature of the beast.

Your comment, particularly vis a vis VHS is just BS and basically amounts to trolling. I try to stay above that stuff, but to be honest in all of your posts I've yet to see you bring anything useful to the discussion (seems like I remember you making the same basic comment about Howard Hall's Imax footage). Weren't you supposed to have your super duper RED housing done and footage posted months ago? I suggest you post your phenomenal results so we can have a gold standard.

And by the way, could you make a list of say the top 25 underwater movies - IMAX, 35mm, HD, etc. from the last 30 years and then point out to me which were made with underwater optics other than PLASTIC domes, much less glass domes or any specialized optics?

I've seen most of the PACE, Hydroflex, Amphibico, etc. housings that are/were used and if memory serves they ALL had plastic domes but maybe some in the past couple years had glass domes and I was unaware.

BTW A probably more enjoyable exercise for the rest of this group would be to simply list what you think are the top 25 underwater movies.

[Frazier Nivens]

Good to see some new tupperware from Aquavideo.

Can 10-22 under Aquatica plastic-thingy resolve more than 1k underwater?

Aquatica dome is known to flare like kaleidospe, has massive CA and poor contrast. May as well put a VHS camera inside.

Can we see some charts shot underwater and topside to compare? 1:1 corner crops would be of particular interest.

Thank you AquavideoRed206!!

I'm so tired of such negative statements on this forum, Tupperware? How rude. VHS camera? Aquatica dome, is there not anything that's good enough for you??

It's great to see someone building a housing for this camera.

We've already heard this optics posting from you, why bring it up again.

I have to continually wade through crap posted on this site all the time to get to the relevant positive postings. Post positive constructive things that help, not degrade someone's products.

Sick of all of this negative postings. I hate even replying to this but enough is enough.

My last post:angry01:

[Anthony S. Lenzo]

Well said, AquaVideo. Respect!

[Michael Hastings]

Well said, AquaVideo. Respect!

Thanks, for the support ASL.

BTW I saw your RED accessories at the REDUSER party, very slick. I especially liked the idea of using the standard DVI cables as a snake.

For any of you that don't know, ASL does some very nice underwater work (as well as rentals and support) using HDCAM in a competitor's housing. They are now making some cool accessories for the RED. After seeing how slick their IOP4R-1 breakout box is I hope they don't make an underwater housing. LOL :biggrin:

But if they do that's OK too. I don't mind competition, or discussion, or constructive criticism - it's the arrogant BS that's annoying. You start to see why Jim had to take a hiatus, and guys like Frazier get turned off. One of the reasons this thread has almost 700 posts - ranging over all kinds of subjects - and is heavily viewed, is that it has been friendly, respectful, and interesting. It would be nice to keep it that way.

PS
BTW: Pawel, I love your tag line: "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it". I revel in my insanity as well so let's all just enjoy the insanity and good humor that bubble blowers are known for, and leave the snide stuff for another forum/thread. Thanks.

[Russ Campbell]

Hey Mike. Good response to the self proclaimed 'Guru of underwater housings'. Great to see the housing finally coming together. Unfortunately I wont be in Durbs to see Sharky's housing, but Mark will keep me posted.

[Anthony S. Lenzo]

Thanks, for the support ASL.

BTW I saw your RED accessories at the REDUSER party, very slick. I especially liked the idea of using the standard DVI cables as a snake.

For any of you that don't know, ASL does some very nice underwater work (as well as rentals and support) using HDCAM in a competitor's housing. They are now making some cool accessories for the RED. After seeing how slick their IOP4R-1 breakout box is I hope they don't make an underwater housing. LOL :biggrin:



Mike,

We want to make everything for this product line!!! However, we are going to focus on the Panel/Break-out box and Splash-bag first.

Looking forward to seeing more frame grabs from your housings.

Best,

[Michael Hastings]

Mike,

We want to make everything for this product line!!! However, we are going to focus on the Panel/Break-out box and Splash-bag first.

Looking forward to seeing more frame grabs from your housings.

Best,

Let me know when you have something on the splash bag, I get requests all the time. Probably will buy (or trade?) for one.

No hurry on the hard housing! HaHa.:biggrin:

[Steven-Marc C.]

Mike,

We want to make everything for this product line!!! However, we are going to focus on the Panel/Break-out box and Splash-bag first.

Looking forward to seeing more frame grabs from your housings.

Best,

Anthony, just went on your website to look at your splash-bag prototype. Looks like it could correspond to what I am looking for for shooting sailing action. How far along are you?

And BTW, maybe this has been adressed before but how are all you case designers dealing with the heating and fans questions with the Red One?

[Anthony S. Lenzo]

Anthony, just went on your website to look at your splash-bag prototype. Looks like it could correspond to what I am looking for for shooting sailing action. How far along are you?

And BTW, maybe this has been adressed before but how are all you case designers dealing with the heating and fans questions with the Red One?

Steven,

We will have a prototype splash-bag ready for CineGear in June. Aiming to ship them by mid-summer.
As for heating issues. On aluminum housings, the housing acts like a heat sink for the camera (on most designs). On our splash-bag, we have an inflater valve and a purge valve. With this, you can cycle air thru the system should over-heating become an issue. A bicycle tube inflater adapter on a SCUBA tank will be a nice assist. Cold packs will only introduce moisture into the bag (or any sealed enclosure ) when the outside temperature is different then what's inside. Nitrogen (when available) is your best bet for getting rid of moisture compensation.

[Pawel Achtel]

Are we starting this again, Pawel? (For those of you that haven't been around this thread since its early days you can go back a few hundred posts and search other threads to see a long winded, fairly obnoxious discussion of the world's greatest underwater optics - as well as other posts with some fairly insightful in depth discussions of u/w optics in general)

The AquaVideo RED housing can easily accommodate any underwater optic you like via the standard frontplate or relatively simple modification. The Aquatica ports were chosen for the stock setup because they in fact work quite well and have physical advantages that allow use of both the Canon lenses and cine lenses like the Arri 8R.

We have an 8" glass dome option coming in the next couple months - not aquatica although we have access to their 9" glass dome too. In fact at DEMA last fall I made arrangements with the other manufacturers like Aquatica, Seacam, Subal, etc. to buy their glass domes as an oem and accommodate them on our RED housing - including the large dome you raved about in your earlier posts. Pricing would be $1500 - $2500 for any of the versions out there with an additional $500 to $1500 to incorporate it into the frontplate. We also have direct access to the manufacturer that makes most of the raw glass domes which we can get in sizes up to about 18" diameter full dome. The 8" glass dome we are getting made in conjunction with another company is said to have even better coatings, but the truth is they all have a degree of flare, CA, etc,. Short of fairly complex multiple element, dedicated underwater corrective optics - which would likely cost more than the RED and a housing combined - that is the nature of the beast.

Your comment, particularly vis a vis VHS is just BS and basically amounts to trolling. I try to stay above that stuff, but to be honest in all of your posts I've yet to see you bring anything useful to the discussion (seems like I remember you making the same basic comment about Howard Hall's Imax footage). Weren't you supposed to have your super duper RED housing done and footage posted months ago? I suggest you post your phenomenal results so we can have a gold standard.

And by the way, could you make a list of say the top 25 underwater movies - IMAX, 35mm, HD, etc. from the last 30 years and then point out to me which were made with underwater optics other than PLASTIC domes, much less glass domes or any specialized optics?

I've seen most of the PACE, Hydroflex, Amphibico, etc. housings that are/were used and if memory serves they ALL had plastic domes but maybe some in the past couple years had glass domes and I was unaware.

BTW A probably more enjoyable exercise for the rest of this group would be to simply list what you think are the top 25 underwater movies.

I sense some difficulty in answering a simple question and providing a frame grab. I was expecting a yes/no and an attachment instead of a slur of personal remarks and paragraphs of completely unrelated issues. I am not the subject here, the equipment is. I commented on the equipment and your personal and unrelated comments are simply unacceptable by professional standards.

For the record, your previous offensive postings that you referred to were removed by the Moderator. They weren't posted in this thread, they were posted in a separate thread, which I created and you discourteously hijacked. Seems like someone has short memory.

My comment about VHS-like quality (or lack therof) is well founded. It was also evident from the frame grabs that Mark posted and clearly showed that your optics may not resolve more than 1k underwater. I am yet to see any evidence to the contrary. Your response, apart from being abusive and personal, does not indicate otherwise.

[Steven-Marc C.]

Steven,

We will have a prototype splash-bag ready for CineGear in June. Aiming to ship them by mid-summer.
As for heating issues. On aluminum housings, the housing acts like a heat sink for the camera (on most designs). On our splash-bag, we have an inflater valve and a purge valve. With this, you can cycle air thru the system should over-heating become an issue. A bicycle tube inflater adapter on a SCUBA tank will be a nice assist. Cold packs will only introduce moisture into the bag (or any sealed enclosure ) when the outside temperature is different then what's inside. Nitrogen (when available) is your best bet for getting rid of moisture compensation.
Very interesting. Thanks for the answer.
I also really like the integrated polarizer and filter holders (for ND). Look forward to seeing the final product!

[Pawel Achtel]

Thank you AquavideoRed206!!

I'm so tired of such negative statements on this forum, Tupperware? How rude. VHS camera? Aquatica dome, is there not anything that's good enough for you??


I guess Tupperware could be viewed as an upgrade to the PVC sewage Pipe that Aquavideo promoted earlier :sarcasm:

If you are tired of negative comments, there is a simple solution: read only the positive once. Others may find negative comments useful.

[Anthony S. Lenzo]

Very interesting. Thanks for the answer.
I also really like the integrated polarizer and filter holders (for ND). Look forward to seeing the final product!

Anytime!!! That's what this thread is for. :-)

[Michael Hastings]

I sense some difficulty in answering a simple question and providing a frame grab. I was expecting a yes/no and an attachment instead of a slur of personal remarks and paragraphs of completely unrelated issues. I am not the subject here, the equipment is. I commented on the equipment and your personal and unrelated comments are simply unacceptable by professional standards.

For the record, your previous offensive postings that you referred to were removed by the Moderator. They weren't posted in this thread, they were posted in a separate thread, which I created and you discourteously hijacked. Seems like someone has short memory.

My comment about VHS-like quality (or lack therof) is well funded. It was also evident from the frame grabs that Mark posted and clearly showed that your optics may not resolve more than 1k underwater. I am yet to see any evidence to the contrary. Your response, apart from being abusive and personal, does not indicate otherwise.


I guess Tupperware could be viewed as an upgrade to the PVC sewage Pipe that Aquavideo promoted earlier :sarcasm:


Pawel:

I would like to simply ignore you, but I make my living making housings and unfortunately as a semi-public forum it is easy for someone like yourself to take it in a negative direction and spread FUD. So I will try to correct some errors and possible misimpressions, and I wouldn't do it except that it also may be useful information for others. And then I will simply ignore your future posts.


Just because you challenge me doesn't obligate me to post a frame grab. I may or may not do that if and when I get the time to do some proper testing.

The "offensive postings" and thread removal I believe were removed because of YOUR comments and I believe I know more about this than you do.

Your VHS comment may be well funded (sic) but I don't think it is well founded. I'm not even sure what postings you are talking about or who Mark is, but if you are speaking of posts by Ken Corben then I think it would be from the footage shot with the 18-50 with either SN#8 or one of the city-named prototype cameras, which was known to have back focus issues; was known to NOT be properly positioned in the dome as it wasn't the intended lens; was processed by Ken in beta software and where he admitted he did not know the proper settings; and then output to a .jpg where we aren't even allowed to go over 1024 pixels wide and was posted NOT as a test evaluation shot but as a fun, "look we got the RED underwater, yay!!!" post.

First of all, no one has tested the 10-22 on the RED underwater because Erik at Birger is just now finishing the Canon EF smart mount that allows us to use it. The 10-22 may not be the perfect lens it may just be the best REALLY GOOD superwide angle for the S35 RED sensor currently available without spending ten times as much. The 14mm or some other future prime may provide better sharpness, and the elite user with big budgets can always use the Zeiss or Cooke cine lenses. And as far as I know, the PVC prototype housings that I built in 48 hours are the only ones that have allowed anyone to shoot RED underwater up until just a couple weeks ago when someone from Colorado built and tested an aluminum one (and we had a shooter testing our first aluminum one about that same time as well.) Up to now all of the footage has been shot with either the RED 18-50 or, on a couple of shoots, the Arri 8R and old Arri 12mm T2.1. The people that have been shooting tend to shoot for entities that own and take possession of the footage immediately so we don't get to see it here on REDUSER, and they are serious people that don't necessarily have the time and probably don't much care what Pawel Achtel, or Mike Hastings or anyone else here thinks of it anyway.

Second, reduser isn't a very good forum for this if for no other reason than the maximum pixel width allowed is 1024.

Third, underwater is a particularly difficult one to demonstrate because what kind of test chart is appropriate? What lenses? What F-stop? In surface photography there are all kinds of very familiar flat subjects, straight line subjects, etc so a flat chart with lines is somewhat appropriate. Underwater there are very few so a normal test chart doesn't make a lot of sense, particularly when anyone that has studied underwater optics at all knows that ALL dome ports create a curved virtual image so you will always have corners out of focus if you are center focused on a flat chart. With the wide angle lenses normally used this is handled very well as soon as the iris is stopped down a bit and with the sensitivity of the RED it will be easy to stop down to F8 - F11 which is typically the sweet spot of most lenses and with wide angles will provide extreme depth of field as well which will handle the curved field focus issue. CA is a related issue that is also helped by stopping down even a little. But in terms of testing a particular dome it is important to know where the lens is positioned in the dome. And of course none of that matters much when you are shooting a lumpy reef, or a diver, a dolphin, shark, angelfish, etc. where it is mostly center framed with water around it.

My point is that it is a complex issue and it is really only fair and useful if you do comprehensive COMPARISON testing with all of the available domes and various lenses. This is rarely done. I have done some in the past and may do more in the future. In truth, it would have to be done in a controlled environment, with trusted judges, or why would you believe me if I posted it anyway.

So why don't you set it up - get all the different domes, lenses, Fathom optics, 18" radius 12" domes, or whatever you like. We'll take them over to stuart cove's in the Bahamas - the capital of underwater movie making - and we'll test the cr*p out of them.

In the meantime, I have sold ten of these, 100% prepaid on foreign orders and 50% deposits on US orders with an average package price of over $12K with accessories, lights and such and will deliver 5 or six of these in the next few weeks, so will be plenty busy. They have made these purchases based on the evaluation that the ports I have chosen for the initial STOCK offering make sense given that they have been used to produce thousands of published photos using 35mm film and digital cameras with frame size/resolution 250% more than RED and basically are the same as those offered for many years by Pace and Hydroflex, and therefore should give excellent results in comparison to existing HD/Film motion picture systems. AND that the system already has readily available long macro ports as well. AND it is easy for them to see that the basic design allows easy upgrading as we (or others) develop even better solutions.

Feel free to respond, but I will not respond to yours in the future.

Happy to discuss ports or anything else with ANYone else, But would rather keep it on a generally positive tone.

Let's hear some more about the splash housing!!! I think I want one. (No domes needed!!!:biggrin:)

PS: ... and by the way the PVC is the fresh/potable water pipe, not the sewer pipe. Not that it makes any difference. I always have a laugh at those that sneer at PVC - after all aluminum is the 19th century material - PVC is 20th century. And it works just fine even though 9 of the 10 orders are for aluminum.

[paul engstrom]

Aqua,

Your patience impresses me.

Your contributions here have been very helpful and much appreciated.

When the time comes for me to get a housing it will be from you and will likely be PVC...

Cheers,
p

[Anthony S. Lenzo]

Mike,

Count me in on the test at Stuart's if it should happen. I'm sure that everyone on this thread can benefit from whatever the results may be.

I'll keep this short, sounds like you have lot of work ahead of you.

Best,

[Mark Thorpe]

Well spoken Mike, I would have simply called the guy a Twat, but thats just me!!

Looking forward to shooting RED and shaking down your product for my first time here with Johnny and Ken next month.

Best,
Mark.
P.S Just back from Botswana, what a place!!

[Pawel Achtel]

Well spoken Mike, I would have simply called the guy a Twat, but thats just me!!

I have made remarks about equipment and optics. Perhaps these were made based on extensive research, tests and (quite complex) calculations, not to mention thorough tests of other well respected professionals in underwater still photography.

I presented my opinions about equipment, namely the Aquatica dome, Canon 10-22 lens and Aquavideo housing. I have not made any derogative comments about any person here. If you disagree with my opinions and want to debate optics or any other equipment, which you appear to have no useful knowledge about, we can do so, but your obnoxious personal remarks and name calling are unacceptable in a public forum and will be dealt with accordingly.

Not that it matters, but I was filming professionally underwater when you were wearing nappies. I was one of the first in the world who filmed (with my own) HDCAM underwater (perhaps before Howard Hall). My camera housing alone (I have two of them) costs over $300k and the unique optical port costs about $30k a pop (I have five of them). Cost aside, to my knowledge it is the sharpest underwater glass under the sun and no one else, including PACE, Warner, IMAX, Howard Hall, Jacques Perrin, you name it, has anything close to this quality and refinement. There has been thousands of hours of quantitative comparisons and research to state this. You can disagree or call it all junk, if you like - I couldn't care less as your opinion is worthless to me, but personal remarks are in a different category altogether and won’t be tolerated here.

[Pawel Achtel]

PS
BTW: Pawel, I love your tag line: "I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it". I revel in my insanity as well so let's all just enjoy the insanity and good humor that bubble blowers are known for, and leave the snide stuff for another forum/thread. Thanks.

Thanks Aquavideo, no problem here.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hats off to you Pawel with regards to your accomplishments but your posts are very very unsavory. Comparing Mike's product to Sewage Piping?? Where do you get off with such statements? If you don't like a product fine but don't debase it with such statements.

I'll apologize for that remark but hey, you think it wasn't deserved??

Dive Safe
Mark.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Let's play nice, kids.

Pawel, don't report a post as being offensive after you instigate the comment. Not cool.

time to move on.

[Pawel Achtel]

Hats off to you Pawel with regards to your accomplishments but your posts are very very unsavory. Comparing Mike's product to Sewage Piping??

I stay corrected by Mike: it was a Drainage Pipe, not Sewage Pipe, my mistake :) Sincerely I thought it was a Sewage Pipe, I can't tell the difference.

Sorry, if you are spending tens of thousands of dollars on a single part machined from a solid block of titanium, the perspective is different. It is what it is, not that there is anything dramatically wrong with a Sewage Pipe for this application.

[jbeale]

Anyone know if Sharkguy has a new webpage, or any contact info? I tried to access www.kennethcorben.com but got:

The requested resource
/
is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource.

[Michael Hastings]

He may be out of the country now - he's been working a lot, but we talk every few days because we are finishing up a housing. I doubt if he wants his info public but if you pm me I will try to call him and/or forward a message.


Anyone know if Sharkguy has a new webpage, or any contact info? I tried to access www.kennethcorben.com but got:

The requested resource
/
is no longer available on this server and there is no forwarding address. Please remove all references to this resource.

[Frank Weeks]

I posted this in another section a couple days ago but this thread seems more appropriate.

At the Red user group meeting in Las Vegas I was fortunate enough to win a generous prize provided by Michael Hastings of AquaVideo. $800 toward the purchase or rental of an underwater housing. Unfortunately there’s not an ocean to be found in my land locked state. So with Michael’s blessing I am offering it to the red community for sale or trade.


If anyone is in the market to rent or buy one of these great housings. Make me an offer.
PM me.

thanks
Frank

[jbeale]

He may be out of the country now - he's been working a lot, but we talk every few days because we are finishing up a housing. I doubt if he wants his info public but if you pm me I will try to call him and/or forward a message.

Thanks. The webpage he listed in his Reduser profile is offline; I didn't know if there was a replacement.

Reason I asked is that I have one of his underwater clips on my webpage. I just got an email from Norway asking me where to get an underwater housing for a Red. If you're selling one, I'll forward the info.

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks. The webpage he listed in his Reduser profile is offline; I didn't know if there was a replacement.

Reason I asked is that I have one of his underwater clips on my webpage. I just got an email from Norway asking me where to get an underwater housing for a Red. If you're selling one, I'll forward the info.

Sharky is up in Alaska shooting aerials with his REDs.

Here's an earlier post with some photos:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=204043#post204043

I am definitely selling them. We are in the process of finishing 3 next week and 5-6 more in the next few weeks as customers get the Birger mount. Current delivery schedule would be about 4 -5 weeks after receipt of order. Maybe faster depending on need/circumstances.

PM me for current pricing and details.


I posted this in another section a couple days ago but this thread seems more appropriate.

At the Red user group meeting in Las Vegas I was fortunate enough to win a generous prize provided by Michael Hastings of AquaVideo. $800 toward the purchase or rental of an underwater housing. Unfortunately there’s not an ocean to be found in my land locked state. So with Michael’s blessing I am offering it to the red community for sale or trade.


If anyone is in the market to rent or buy one of these great housings. Make me an offer.
PM me.

thanks
Frank

Just to confirm that this is legit. In support of the REDUSER NAB we provided an $800 gift certificate for the raffle toward rentals or purchase of the RED underwater housing. So whatever deal you make with Frank, you still get $800 credit with AquaVideo.

[Amund Lie]

JBeale:

I believe you got a question from Norway about someone looking for an underwater housing?

Well, I will be going over to Florida next week to pick up my new AquaVideo housing and RED One, so that will be the first of it's kind in Norway.

Unfortunately I will be filming around Florida, Puerto Rico and Bonaire for the next three weeks or so :) but by late May I will be back and operative in Scandinavia.

regards,
Amund
Oslo, Norway

[Mark Thorpe]

Thats gotta be cold over there?? Under Ice??

Cheers,
Mark.

[Josh Murphy]

Hello to all!

New to the site and eager to learn more from the experiences within. Sounds like new depths are being charted daily.

AquaVideo, I may be interested in renting one of your housings and it looks like your webpage may be down. Any way to reach you?

[David Nardini]

Good to see some new tupperware from Aquavideo.

Can 10-22 under Aquatica plastic-thingy resolve more than 1k underwater?

Aquatica dome is known to flare like kaleidospe, has massive CA and poor contrast. May as well put a VHS camera inside.

Can we see some charts shot underwater and topside to compare? 1:1 corner crops would be of particular interest.

I go on the road for a few weeks and return to see some interesting debates !
I do not know too much about Aquatica dome (plastic or not) but, Pawel, some of your comment are put across a tad (!) strongly ;-)

It's interesting to see on your web site that you are a dome man (all be it with 'astounding light transmission characteristics greater than 99.7%', coated, glass, etc) ... but, if your statement is correct (about the 1K resolution) the vast majority of the DSLR shooter out there are wasting their time shooting with their 6MP to 16MP cameras ;-) ... there being quite a few Aquatica shooters out there.

Personally, to date, I've used Seacam domes (glass and coated), perhaps not as good as your dome, but are you telling me I can SEE the difference between say 90-95% and 99.7% light transmission in an u/w shot ? I would argue that the dome correct placement and the controlling of internal reflections will have a greater impact on image quality (not to mention the massively variable water conditions we face, which is clearly not under our control).

The idea behind this kind of forum is to make contributions ... if your optics are so good, can you share your 'charts shot underwater and topside to compare & 1:1 corner crops' ? Will you be marketing your dome ? For what lenses (for use on RED) ? What is the expected price & delivery time ?

Cheers,

[David Nardini]

So ... having seen the Birger aperture control being operated by the 2 push buttons (NAB2008 YouTube clip), what happened to the pot-like-control ?

Unless I've missed a key post (somewhere) am I to understand that the only way it will operate it is now via the buttons ONLY ?

Cheers

[Pawel Achtel]

I do not know too much about Aquatica dome (plastic or not) but, Pawel, some of your comment are put across a tad (!) strongly ;-)

I guess I can't hide my strong views on the subject, can I? :tongue:


... but, if your statement is correct (about the 1K resolution) the vast majority of the DSLR shooter out there are wasting their time shooting with their 6MP to 16MP cameras ;-) ... there being quite a few Aquatica shooters out there.

Yes and No. Yes - I am not aware of any wide angle port commercially available which would reproduce more than 1k resolution beyond 70~85 degrees view on 35mm image plane.
No - you can still get "acceptable" sharpness in the middle 50 degree angle of view and you can still make nice images. Believe me or not, 1k underwater is a fair bit and (much) better than average. A lot of footage in the BBC's Blue Planet did not have more than 200 lines, some probably less than 100 lines in the centre!



Personally, to date, I've used Seacam domes (glass and coated), perhaps not as good as your dome, but are you telling me I can SEE the difference between say 90-95% and 99.7% light transmission in an u/w shot ? I would argue that the dome correct placement and the controlling of internal reflections will have a greater impact on image quality (not to mention the massively variable water conditions we face, which is clearly not under our control).

I used Seacam Superdome (three of them) for almost 6 years. It performes quite well and about 300% better on 2/3" image plane than it does on S35mm sensor in terms of image field flatness (mostly responsible for loss of contrast and sharpness away from centre). Superdome is the best commercially available wide-angle port. To answer your question: Yes, there is clear and visible difference between Superdome and CinePort. The main difference is that CinePort creates as "in air" look. You can only see it on a moving image. There are also significant differences in contrast, resolution, distortions, but also in flare and reflections. The last two are less prominent and harder to see on still images, but are quite problematic in motion picture. In moving image the difference is clear and a lame person can see it too, just may be not aware of the reason for it. I like Superdome but, it does not resolve more than 1k beyond ~80 degrees FOV, and this is with perfectly aligned entrance pupil, perfectly focused and stepped to the "sweetest spot" of the combined optics.



The idea behind this kind of forum is to make contributions ... if your optics are so good, can you share your 'charts shot underwater and topside to compare & 1:1 corner crops' ? Will you be marketing your dome ? For what lenses (for use on RED) ? What is the expected price & delivery time ?

I have four CinePorts which I use myself. The 5th one, and the only out there, is owned by Harald Hordosch - the owner and the CEO of Seacam. He bought it from me. You can only guess why.
Unfortunately CinePort is not available for sale or even for dry hire. The manufacturing cost, (excluding design, testing and development time) is higher than what Red One sells for. So, its performance is academic, really.

My statement was purely to lower people's expectations. The 10-22 zoom does not even resolve 10 megapixels in air, so expecting more from it underwater would be a bit ambitious, to say the least. Stephen Fink (and others) demonstrated limitations of various domes and this lens quite well in his pool tests. But then, it didn't stop me from taking thousands of topside pictures with the 10-22 - some even half-decent :biggrin:.

The best way you can get good sharpness underwater is to use lenses, which are designed for this purpose. Nikonos RS comes to mind.

You asked for a sample. I shot over 20 hours of footage with CinePort, but most is not available for preview (for various reasons). However, here is a frame grab from footage I took back in early 2002 with my HDCAM camera behind a different (let's call it "Mystery") port. The image is not colour corrected or sharpened in any way. These were the "early days" when even the BBC did not know what HDCAM was (I kid you not). Well, I did, but still had no idea what I was doing most of the time :clown2: . Ayway, the image resolves about 1.4k horizontally x about 700 lines (not line pairs!) vertically. 1:1 corner crop provided. The "better than average" contrast is mainly due to some luck and possibly the optics used. Whilst my optics, knowledge and skills improved somewhat since 2002, this shot remains my favourite to this day. You can compare it to any u/w frame grab from Red One.

Edit: I should add that the footage was taken in Sydney in 3-5 metre visibility.

[David Nardini]

Hi Pawel,

Concur that dedicated u/w glass is clearly the best (Nikonos & Nikonos RS glass); I've never matched the old Nik 15mm quality ... I got close with the Hassy SWC + dedicated Zeiss Ivanoff port. Since I've been using domes it's always been a BIG compromise.

The SuperDome is my 'standard' port ... controlling flare is a challenge ... (there are ways); best I've come across to date.

Shame the CinePort is not available, not even for hire (lucky Harald - I wonder if he's adapted one for use on a Seacam to try out ... I'll have ask him); perhaps a larger production batch ? or maybe you just want to keep the competitive advantage in house ;-)
Did you explore Ivanoff ports in the past (to produce flat depths of field and provide perfect water interface work / no magnification changes) ? At the unit costs you talking about I do wonder if there is some scope here ... (assuming non extreme wide angle work).

I'm very interested in your comment about the difference (perceived or measurable) 'behaviour' for moving images versus stills associated with domes ... I find this surprising ... then again, moving stuff is new territory for me, so I'll take that on-board.

At the end of the day, it's all about return on investment, and it would be good to see/gauge the benefits of CinePort versus correcting (hopefully) mild imperfections in post (for the rest of the commercially available domes).
Sounds like there are only 2 people in the world who can do a side by side comparison of CinePort vs 'the rest', so I guess it's a dead end road !

Thanks for the frame grabs ... I'll have a more careful look later.

Cheers

[Michael Hastings]

So ... having seen the Birger aperture control being operated by the 2 push buttons (NAB2008 YouTube clip), what happened to the pot-like-control ?

Unless I've missed a key post (somewhere) am I to understand that the only way it will operate it is now via the buttons ONLY ?

Cheers

David:

In the words of the Hitchikers guide DON'T PANIC, Birger will have knobs too. He added the buttons so that you could also change the iris without the knobs. You will have the ability to daisy chain the two knobs and the default will be first knob is focus and second is iris. Obviously the buttons would be a much harder way to set iris in the housing. Erik is making special encoders for use in the housing. Because of size and position constraints with the knob/control shaft method we are also looking into a simple remote for setting iris and focus via a small circuit board with simple iris up/down and focus near/far control which would use simple switches rather than the encoder knobs. This would open the possibility of putting the switches right at the handles.


Hi Pawel,

At the end of the day, it's all about return on investment,



Good points1) re: the cost and the possibility of the Ivanoff type correctors for that kind of money. 2) ROI. That is why domes are still virtually the only method used on high end motion picture projects S35, IMAX, etc. over the past 30 years.

However, besides the readily available Aquatica ports we are working on our own glass dome AND we have made our system very flexible, the large opening lets us use any of the existing ports, plus we have added an oring groove approx 6.25" diameter and the corresponding threaded screw holes to allow the use of simpler flat ports OR almost any type of port setup you would like to attach - that is if you or someone else wants to design another port system you already have an easy sealing surface and mount set up in place.


Hi Pawel

....
Sounds like there are only 2 people in the world who can do a side by side comparison of CinePort vs 'the rest', so I guess it's a dead end road !

Cheers

Another good point. I have a hard time with representations like "300 % better", since I don't know how that calculates in something like this. And things like 95% light transmission vs. 99% sound like a big thing until you realize that moving from F2.8 to F4 is 50% light transmission or the other way around F2.8 is 100% more light. So how much of an F-stop is 5% less light. Would it be like a tenth of a stop? - I don't know exactly, it didn't seem like enough to warrant the calculations. Better light transmission is part of it but the main reason to go to glass (other than scratch resistance during normal cleaning) is to try to reduce flare.

Optics are important - one of the biggest advantages of RED is that the simple single sensor (no prism!) allows the use extremely sharp lenses in the $700-$1800 range as opposed to the $20K or more you have to spend with a Varicam or HDCAM setup - but you can overthink this stuff too.


Hello to all!

New to the site and eager to learn more from the experiences within. Sounds like new depths are being charted daily.

AquaVideo, I may be interested in renting one of your housings and it looks like your webpage may be down. Any way to reach you?

PM me or call 954 937 6600

I just noticed the website being down - I was switching to another hosting company but I thought it stayed with yahoo (originally simplenet) until I canceled with them - will check tomorrow.

[Pawel Achtel]

Another good point. I have a hard time with representations like "300 % better", since I don't know how that calculates in something like this.
Assuming curvature of field is constant and relatively small on the image plane, the loss of resolution can be aproximated as linear function of the image plane size. Thus, as a ball-park figure, you would expect 300% more loss of resolution due to field curvature alone on an image plane that is 300% larger.

In lame terms and with some examples (Canon 14mm L f/2.8 on EOS 1Ds, 9" dome), Stephen Frink wrote about it here:

http://www.stephenfrink.com/sf-tips/200607-digital-wide-angle-dust/digital-wide-angle-dust.pdf

Even on the low-resolution PDF you can clearly see that Canon EF 14mm f/2.8behind 9" dome does not resolve even 1k away from the centre. The dome compromises its performance substantially.



And things like 95% light transmission vs. 99% sound like a big thing until you realize that moving from F2.8 to F4 is 50% light transmission or the other way around F2.8 is 100% more light. So how much of an F-stop is 5% less light. Would it be like a tenth of a stop? - I don't know exactly, it didn't seem like enough to matter.

No, you would not see 5% of light loss. However, what is not transmitted is generally reflected. 5% reflection of a dome surface (there are two) can show as much as 3 stops (5% of 100% is ~3.5 stops of 8-stop DR), of ghosting, glare and reflections. You would also see loss of contrast and detail due to reflected and dispersed light.

Even Seacam Superdome is capable of creating some terrible reflections, ghosting and flare if you are not careful. Just point it upwards on a sunny day and do some panning.

[David Nardini]

In the words of the Hitchikers guide DON'T PANIC, Birger will have knobs too. He added the buttons so that you could also change the iris without the knobs. You will have the ability to daisy chain the two knobs and the default will be first knob is focus and second is iris. Obviously the buttons would be a much harder way to set iris in the housing. Erik is making special encoders for use in the housing. Because of size and position constraints with the knob/control shaft method we are also looking into a simple remote for setting iris and focus via a small circuit board with simple iris up/down and focus near/far control which would use simple switches rather than the encoder knobs. This would open the possibility of putting the switches right at the handles.


Mike, thanks for the update. As for the Hitchikers guide reference, perhaps a 42" dome will fix all our problems :)

Cheers ....

[Pawel Achtel]

perhaps a 42" dome will fix all our problems :)


Howard Hall tried exactly that in order to overcome massive resolution loss on 65mm image plane....

[Michael Hastings]

Mark Thorpe/Camdiver (who started this thread) has a thread showing two of our housings shooting the sharks in Africa. Ken Corben and Johnny Friday are shooting with Mark this week.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13740

[Pawel Achtel]

I have one new and unused CinePort for sale. Complete with SeaCam custom mounting. It will work best with Canon EF 14mm prime lens and covers the same field of view.

Pictures of the actual port for sale attached. The third picture shows CinePort next to Seacam Superdome.

Offers over $20k welcome. Only one is available for sale, so first in - the only dressed :ohmy:

Any questions, please ask. Some answers may be found here: http://achtel.com/News/CinePort.htm

Also available is a female bayonet mount that goes on the housing front plate, which will fit AquaVideo and many other housings.

This is quite unusual piece of glass, offering unmatched contrast and sharpness. Apart from me, the only other CinePort is owned by the CEO of Seacam.

You can contact me by email at: firstname.secondname@24x7.com.au

[Johnny Friday]

Hi Pawel,
Can you explain beyond what your website says about the glass. Basically where is the technology behind it? I see you have a coating on the glass and likely very nice glass, but what more goes into this glass for $20k ? I'm only curious to know more why this glass is so much better than say subal glass. I can get glass coated so that's not really a problem.

Am I missing something? You would have to explain to me in simple terms how the cineport is so much better. I've shot recently using standard acrylic ports and was quite impressed with the results. I will now try some glass ports to see what if any better quality I'll yield. I expect there to be better performance, but not substantially so.

Thanks

[Michael Hastings]

Hi Pawel,
Can you explain beyond what your website says about the glass. Basically where is the technology behind it? I see you have a coating on the glass and likely very nice glass, but what more goes into this glass for $20k ? I'm only curious to know more why this glass is so much better than say subal glass. I can get glass coated so that's not really a problem.

Am I missing something? You would have to explain to me in simple terms how the cineport is so much better. I've shot recently using standard acrylic ports and was quite impressed with the results. I will now try some glass ports to see what if any better quality I'll yield. I expect there to be better performance, but not substantially so.

Thanks

I am curious about the actual performance as well and would be willing to make a special frontplate for our housing incorporating the bayonet for the cineport so that the reduser/bubbleblower community could evaluate it among our other options. It would be simplest to do it in Ft. Lauderdale or possibly Key Largo. If there is a question of bias I could ask Stephen Frink to assist and oversee testing. I would also certainly invite any and all bubble blowers. Maybe we can organize an FLL underwater RED test weekend? Mid-July?

[Pawel Achtel]

I am curious about the actual performance as well and would be willing to make a special frontplate for our housing incorporating the bayonet for the cineport so that the reduser/bubbleblower community could evaluate it among our other options. It would be simplest to do it in Ft. Lauderdale or possibly Key Largo. If there is a question of bias I could ask Stephen Frink to assist and oversee testing. I would also certainly invite any and all bubble blowers. Maybe we can organize an FLL underwater RED test weekend? Mid-July?

I would be happier to let you or someone else test the dome rather than publically explain what it is that makes it the sharpest and clearest underwater port bar none.

The best would be to do a test with a still picture camera and Seacam housing because CinePort has the same position of the entrance pupil as the Superdome. If someone has a properly aligned 14mm Canon lens to the Superdome, it would be aligned with CinePort too. Just replace the port. One thing, though: it must be an S35 image size, not the 35mm still picture image size. The port covers just over 90 degree diagonal field of view.

CinePort didn't come to fruition overnight. It took many years of R&D. The process was a simple one: first try to quantify and identify the parameters responsible for contrast, flatness of field, sharpness, CA and flaring and then optimise them in a reasonable form factor. The starting point was the Superdome. There are numerous improvemnts that do not meet the eye, but rather than explaining them in detail, I would rather show the results, which speak for themselves.

The first obvious thing you notice with the CinePort is that it "can see" roughly twice or three times as far as you can through a dive mask. Number of times I filmed things I didn't and couldn't see myslef, but the camera could record a clear image of it. Filming in 3-5m viz produces very clear, high contrast image. I kid you not, the picture of the sea dragon a few pages back was shot in less than 5m viz and the image was not manipulated in any way.

The second thing you notice is that, when you move the camera, the rectiliner effect is preserved and the space feels like "in air" more than "in water". It is strange, but very natural feel when you see the footage on a large screen. It is non distorting and very flat. Hence, the name CinePort.

In terms of cost, there are very few optical workshops which can grind a cubic foot block of optical glass to micrometer precision and finish the surface exceeding that of HD glass. The coating is also unique and results in substantialy less flare and higher contrast underwater. The actual cost of CinePort would be much higher if R&D was included. The development requires trials and errors. The mount alone cost about $4k to make (I have another one spare, if anyone is interested). It uses about 3-4 times more material than Superdome and is incomparably more complex and harder to make. It is a 2-part design clamped with titanium bolts, so it is user-servicable (although not recommended if you don't know what you are doing).

Mike, to test the port you would first need to find out the entrance pupil of the EF 14mm f/2.8 II lens from Canon. I don't have the data. I can give you all the specifications for the front plate, which shouldn't take more than a couple of hours to make, but probably testing with still picture camera would be easier.

I am sure Stephen Frink would like to play with the dome and he has some good practical ideas too. You can certainly ask him. I don't mind or care whether the results are biased or not because I do not need convincing. I wouldn't have spent so much effort and money if there was little difference. Deep pockets are certainly not the area where I compete with the BBC and other usual suspects (some of which conceeded that they can not match or even come close to the resulting image quality at any cost). I also do not want to sell CinePorts.

In terms of timing, I will be going away to a remote location starting mid-June, so it would be best to plan it when I return around early July.

[conrad gaunt]

I don`t scuba dive, but I sometimes blow bubbles underwater

[Mark Thorpe]

I don`t scuba dive, but I sometimes blow bubbles underwaterMuch to the chagrin of your little rubber ducks I bet ..... :unsure:

[Pawel Achtel]

I don`t scuba dive, but I sometimes blow bubbles underwater

You should try the opposite :usd:

[StephenFrink]

David - I noticed your comment about flare on the Seacam port. Some lenses are clearly more difficult to tame flare than others, however you may be interested to try the new Superdome AR (anti-reflective) that Harald created at my request. The interior flat surface of this dome is coated with the same black flocking as is used inside the housing, and is available only with coated mineral glass as well.


Hi Pawel,

Concur that dedicated u/w glass is clearly the best (Nikonos & Nikonos RS glass); I've never matched the old Nik 15mm quality ... I got close with the Hassy SWC + dedicated Zeiss Ivanoff port. Since I've been using domes it's always been a BIG compromise.

The SuperDome is my 'standard' port ... controlling flare is a challenge ... (there are ways); best I've come across to date.

Shame the CinePort is not available, not even for hire (lucky Harald - I wonder if he's adapted one for use on a Seacam to try out ... I'll have ask him); perhaps a larger production batch ? or maybe you just want to keep the competitive advantage in house ;-)
Did you explore Ivanoff ports in the past (to produce flat depths of field and provide perfect water interface work / no magnification changes) ? At the unit costs you talking about I do wonder if there is some scope here ... (assuming non extreme wide angle work).

I'm very interested in your comment about the difference (perceived or measurable) 'behaviour' for moving images versus stills associated with domes ... I find this surprising ... then again, moving stuff is new territory for me, so I'll take that on-board.

At the end of the day, it's all about return on investment, and it would be good to see/gauge the benefits of CinePort versus correcting (hopefully) mild imperfections in post (for the rest of the commercially available domes).
Sounds like there are only 2 people in the world who can do a side by side comparison of CinePort vs 'the rest', so I guess it's a dead end road !

Thanks for the frame grabs ... I'll have a more careful look later.

Cheers

[Bmoreshaun]

So I'm looking into an underwater housing for one of my REDs but I'm a bit concerned about compatibility if I switch to the new Epic. Although after reading a post it might serve myself and renters best if I just upgraded the chip on my REDs. Will the specs on the body size be the same?...Any thoughts???...

[Pawel Achtel]

David - I noticed your comment about flare on the Seacam port. Some lenses are clearly more difficult to tame flare than others, however you may be interested to try the new Superdome AR (anti-reflective) that Harald created at my request. The interior flat surface of this dome is coated with the same black flocking as is used inside the housing, and is available only with coated mineral glass as well.

Stephen, Welcome to the forum!

I had three specially made Superdomes AR and used them for many years - good glass, but still, under some conditions, hard to control flare and reflections. Certainly best dome comercially available.

If you like to test my CinePort I can make it available and see what you think :biggrin:

[Ken Corben]

So I'm looking into an underwater housing for one of my REDs but I'm a bit concerned about compatibility if I switch to the new Epic. Although after reading a post it might serve myself and renters best if I just upgraded the chip on my REDs. Will the specs on the body size be the same?...Any thoughts???...

It would be safe to assume that the RED team will surprise us all when Epic starts shipping and the upgrade may be a good choice for underwater work? I would also guess that the optical center from camera tray to dome port will not be plug and play between the two cameras in one housing. Possible yes - but likely?

If you are not planning on shooting full time between now and the release of Epic then renting a housing may be a solution. I do not see a disadvantage to owning a housing for both cameras either. The summary is that there is no way to make a decision on your question since the final specs on Epic are subject to change.

[StephenFrink]

Stephen, Welcome to the forum!

I had three specially made Superdomes AR and used them for many years - good glass, but still, under some conditions, hard to control flare and reflections. Certainly best dome comercially available.

If you like to test my CinePort I can make it available and see what you think :biggrin:

Thanks Pawel. I see you are in Sydney, and I'm in Key Largo; but if we are ever in the same ocean at the same time it would be fun to go diving and compare notes. Meanwhile, I'm a neophyte on this forum but will hope to learn more about the Red One and its underwater applications.

[Jeremy Neish]

We are still looking for an underwater housing for s.Darko (Donnie Darko 2). We need to rent one on June 12-13, and we are filming in Utah, so far we've not found any solid leads. Aquavideo has been very sporadic in their replies and hasn't been able to commit. I'm getting a bit desperate, can somebody advise us as soon as possible? Thanks!

[Michael Hastings]

So I'm looking into an underwater housing for one of my REDs but I'm a bit concerned about compatibility if I switch to the new Epic. Although after reading a post it might serve myself and renters best if I just upgraded the chip on my REDs. Will the specs on the body size be the same?...Any thoughts???...

The Epic is a radically different form factor so the housing isn't likely to fit. We have long had a policy of giving substantial tradein (up to fifty percent of what they paid for the original) on new housings and we will do something similar for the RED to epic housing.

By the way, I never got around to talking about the RED vs. scarlet choice and I think the key is that the RED is going to be the sweet spot for truly professional shooting. The combination of 4k and more importantly, extremely good glass at low cost via the Birger Canon EF mount will make it the absolute best bang for the buck. (interestingly a Canon 10-22 lens is cheaper than a good wide angle converter for an HVX200 style camera and even the 14mm is about the same price - yet way beyond in terms of optical quality.)

Scarlet will likely kill the HVX200 and Sony EX1 types but you have to remember you are still locked into a fixed lens with some kind of adapter, so I don't think it will be much of a challenge to the REDONE or EPIC for the really serious shooter - although I'm sure a lot of them will get one as a second camera. And it will make a great surfcam.


We are still looking for an underwater housing for s.Darko (Donnie Darko 2). We need to rent one on June 12-13, and we are filming in Utah, so far we've not found any solid leads. Aquavideo has been very sporadic in their replies and hasn't been able to commit. I'm getting a bit desperate, can somebody advise us as soon as possible? Thanks!

Jeremy: It is mostly a lens issue. I am getting my birger mount Saturday but it is going out on a rental early next week, and I sold my 12mm PL mount Arri to Amund Lie in Norway last Monday. I have a couple housings available but the lenses are the issue - I think you would be very limited right now in lens choice and adjustability so we need to determine what you can get by with. I am up to my ears in finishing four housings right now so limited time to talk. Also you should contact Sharkguy, his housing is setup with very nice gears for the 8R and he has the complete setup - housing and Arri 8R. For a two day shoot, it may be best to hire him and his gear together - Sharky has more RED and particularly RED underwater experience than anybody.

[David Nardini]

David - I noticed your comment about flare on the Seacam port. Some lenses are clearly more difficult to tame flare than others, however you may be interested to try the new Superdome AR (anti-reflective) that Harald created at my request. The interior flat surface of this dome is coated with the same black flocking as is used inside the housing, and is available only with coated mineral glass as well.

Hi Stephen ... thanks for the heads up - looks like Pawel has been there already ;-) ... I'll have to see if Paul Kay can lend me one to test here in the UK.
I guess we all struggle in this dept ... I do like the port design that Pawel has (cone inside surface rather than a flat flange); still leaves the 'lens' object in the throat of the port. I've seen your write ups on the 'rubberised lens hoods' (cut to measure) and from your tests it seems to help.

If only Oz was just round the corner ...

[David Nardini]

I am getting my birger mount Saturday but it is going out on a rental early next week, and I sold my 12mm PL mount Arri to Amund Lie in Norway last Monday

Hi Mike,
Bum ... you sold the 12mm ! HOWEVER you are getting a (one ?) Birger this Sat !!! Does this mean you may have a housing available for hire ? :help: I'm getting rapidly (!) nowhere in hiring some kit for June 21st :help: :help: :help:

Anybody else,
if you have a RED housing for hire for 2 weeks from June 21st to July 5th ... PM me ASAP ! I will need a 12mm or 14mm lens too ...

[Mark Thorpe]

For Rentals I also mentioned to Ken Corben aboutr this. He is back in the U.S at the moment, AFAIK, so PM him. He seems the only option at the moment.

Hey David, currently in the UK at the moment, albeit until tomorrow. Flying out to Bali for a break to see the missus and then work again in NE Russia and Northern Japan. Fur Seals and Turtles collectively. I'll PM you my cell number........call for a chat if poss.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

Got a few underwater clips using RED with 18-50 lens. Glad to send to anyone that can host the photos and video...

Just email me at: johnny@bajaecotours.com

[Amund Lie]

Hello,

Just want to let you folks know that I and complete underwater package is available for rent, either as DP or as DIT with camera and AquaVideo housing. Trained film cameraman, 20 years in the industry, experienced CMAS/PADI Divemaster diver, Norwegian Class S work diver license.

Kit consists of the following:
- AquaVideo housing
- Red#1670, build 15. 4 batteries, Red drive. Flash-cards available, but not practical in underwater situations. PL and Nikon mounts.
- Currently with a Arri/Zeiss 12mm T2.1 through dome port, or a selection of Nikon lenses through Aquatica closeup glass port (which btw, does accommodate a wide range of lenses such as 20mm, 60mm macro, 85mm a.s.o). Basic aperture and focus adjustments. 120ft surface cable that allows HD-SDI monitoring.

Future upgrades to the package will consist of Birgermount and Poseidon/CIS Lunar VI rebreather for bubble-free operation (2 - 3 months from now)

Willing to travel anywhere in the world for exciting projects. On short notice is fine, although air travel is a slight problem since airport authorities are very suspicious of the housing and 140Wh batteries (especially if packed together; something I will not do again). It was recently held up in Zürich for two days due to this. Also allow 1 day of post-flight checking of unit.

Sorry, but no rental of just the housing alone. This is very much a personal piece of gear that needs real working knowledge with that particular unit due to specific lenses, cable fittings, modifications, added controls etc. No problem working as DIT and underwater technician/assistant for other DP though.

Amund

E-mail me at amundlie(a)mac(dot)com if you want to see some recent uw clips.

[Michael Hastings]

You should check out all of the new features in build 16.

IN particular, we now have prerecord where you can have a 10 or 30 second buffer that records the previous 10 or 30 seconds when you hit record. No more missed shots of animal behavior.

I missed this a lot from my Ikegami editcams. Thought they could do it but it was never promised as far as I know.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=236263

[Mark Thorpe]

Sounds great, thats gonna help big time as I'm waiting for that damned Pygmy Seahorse to have its babies!!!

Cheers,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

I'd be happy with a faster startup time from 90 seconds to say 10. Seems like ten minutes when stuffs happening to wait it out for 90 seconds......no what i mean Mark?

[RobM]

Hi haven't been through the whole thread is there an underwater housing for the red one?

[RobM]

Ok now I have been through a bit of the thread I see there are underwater housings and such. I need two cameras with two housings an operator and a dit to shoot a really cool board in the red sea, the production is going out of South Africa, the shoot will be in mid to late July. If you are able to supply this production please get hold of me my email is rmalpage@mac.com.

[Michael Hastings]

This is a copy of a post from the birger thread:

Here are some photos of the birger mount I received. For those that weren't at NAB the mount has a cable with a 10pin LEMO that connects to the camera for power and future communication with the camera head. It has two 4 pin lemos that will allow you to attach the knobs. Knobs can loop through each other so you can have one of the 4 pins still available which I believe allows us to get additional power from the rear camera 4 pin for lenses that require more than the 500ma available from the RED 10 pin. The cable you see is an accessory to allow us to control the mount remotely through one of the 4 pins - i.e. via a computer or through a custom control we are considering for use in the housings.

Picture of the housings is showing my main application for the Birger mount (kid in the background is bummed 'cause he just found out he won't get his birger mount for a couple weeks). The other picture is a custom gear for the ARRI 8r - $4000 for the pair - focus and iris. Now you see why Birger is so important for us - not only is it much cheaper but it provides focus and iris control for any Canon lens (with PL cine glass you have to have gears for every lens - there is a little adjustability but not much so unless the lenses are extremely similar you need more gears/locations). With Birger, no matter if we switch from a 10-22mm superwide lens (about 3.5 inches long) to a 180 macro at over 7.5 inches we don't have to worry about control. We just put on a different port and go.

I'm not knocking cine lenses, the housing on the left is Ken Corben's set up for the Ultraprime 8r and the 8r is probably the ultimate underwater lens but at 30K it isn't in everyone's budget.

[Amund Lie]

Michael,

I totally agree on the concept of the Birger mount, but that doesn't take into account that many DPs still wish to use their PL mount lenses in my housing. After all, most of my work so far has been for DPs on short films, feature film and tv drama where they want to use Ultra Primes or similar even under water.

I am currently modifying my housing to accommodate at least a couple of the wider Arri/Zeiss Primes with gears for focus and aperture, either by constructing a gear system of my own and/or buying standard gears from SLR housing manufacturers such as Aquatica. Any suggestions on who might be able to provide gear kits? (aside from the one Ken Corben had made for him)

Amund

[Mark Thorpe]

I'd be happy with a faster startup time from 90 seconds to say 10. Seems like ten minutes when stuffs happening to wait it out for 90 seconds......no what i mean Mark?Only too well my friend, only too well.

Hope all is going well down here mate. Did you get that last email I sent? Would be nice to get some feedback on that specific issue.

Cheers mate, have a good one.
Mark.

[Pawel Achtel]

I have one new and unused CinePort for sale. Complete with SeaCam custom mounting. It will work best with Canon EF 14mm prime lens and covers the same field of view.

No longer available, thanks.

[Michael Hastings]

more than 12 hours without a post - you rarely see the birger thread fall off the new posts list. Anyway, since we won't have any real news until Monday or tuesday I thought I would post a couple of observations that I had about the mount when I had it last week.

One, the backfocus adjustment system - similar in concept to what red did with the adjustable pl - is very slick, some very nice precision machining (which by the way - I am sure cost quite a bit more than the original setup - so I wouldn't be surprised if there is a price increase once initial orders are filled). Jorge from Cinematechnic - a longtime Arri/zeiss lens and camera tech - was very impressed with the build quality, and he is about as fussy as they come.

Two, I noticed there is quite a bit of adjustment capability in the positive direction - I am thinking that Erik left enough so that you could also backfocus a Nikon lens mount if the front portion of the birger unit had a nikon mount instead of a canon ef mount. Nikon Flange focal distance is 46.5 mm as opposed to 44 mm for Nikon F.

It also allows for something I - as an underwater shooter - was interested in. That is when you use dome ports it totally refocuses the image - as if you had a negative diopter on it. You can use a positive diopter - which is what we do with video lenses, but it does add some distortion. With the adjustment capability of the birger we can dial in about .060 of positive "shim" and correct for focus without adding a diopter.

This could also be used by other shooters for creating an extension tube effect for closeup photography.


Added for the bubble blowers:

I haven't played with the PL mount as much - when I use I have had it collimated by Jorge and pretty much leave it. Does anyone know how much adjustment there is on the RED pl mount (sharky?)? I think the shim amount is about .060" for a 10 mm and maybe a little less for an 8R - although you really don't need it for the 8r since it close focus normally to the range you need for 6" and 8" domes.

The other thing to know is that the "shim" amount is different for different focal lengths so you probably wouldn't be able to zoom much - this method would be pretty much for primes or for the 10-22 canon left at 10mm. If you want to zoom you pretty much have to use a diopter.

[Monteiro]

Below is a picture summarising the Ivanoff-Rebikoff correction lens and some formulas ... hope I've not made a typo !
Essentially it's a reversed Galilean telescope in which the front (plano) concave lens is used for the watertight window. The lens system will be afocal if :
fd = fn + d
where :
fd = focal length of the positive lens
fn = focal length of the negative lens
d = separation between the lenses

In summary, the main benefits of this port system (as can be found on the Hassy SWC housing) :

it is afocal and can be used in conjunction with a conventional camera lens of any focal length as long as it does not vignette the corners
the focal length and field of view of the camera lens are the same in water as in air
pincushion distortion, chromatic aberration and other aberrations of a plane (flat) port are corrected
depth of field is increased by about a factor of 2 over a plane port with the same camera lens and aperture


Alignment of the optical axis of camera lens and correcting lenses (+ve and -ve) is critical. Ideally, they should all be mounted on one rigid mechanical unit (any flexing of the u/w housing under pressure will not affect quality; this is clearly only an issue for deeper work).

That's it :biggrin: anybody out there that can machine up / polish a perpex port for me :help: (I can sort out the +ve diopter). The underwater community could really do with a supplier of these ports ... !

EDIT : oh ... forgot to say, I don't know how zoom lenses will stack up in this scenario, but will find try and find out ...

Don't know if anyone is still interested but I got my hands on a Rebikoff port this weekend it is a little beat up but optically clean. I am thinking about building a housing around it. It was originally set up for the 5.9mm Angenieux which I also have and may use for 2K projects BUT since this post claims that any focal length lens will work with the Rebikoff I am going to check it out on the 18-50 Red Zoom tomorrow and the 10.5mm Distagon to see if I get corner to corner coverage in 4K. Anyone interested can contact me for the results. georgem@sea-cam.com.

[Pawel Achtel]

IN particular, we now have prerecord where you can have a 10 or 30 second buffer that records the previous 10 or 30 seconds when you hit record. No more missed shots of animal behavior.


How do we trigger cache recording without a mechanical access to SHIFT button?

[Pawel Achtel]

Don't know if anyone is still interested but I got my hands on a Rebikoff port this weekend it is a little beat up but optically clean. I am thinking about building a housing around it. It was originally set up for the 5.9mm Angenieux which I also have and may use for 2K projects BUT since this post claims that any focal length lens will work with the Rebikoff I am going to check it out on the 18-50 Red Zoom tomorrow and the 10.5mm Distagon to see if I get corner to corner coverage in 4K. Anyone interested can contact me for the results. georgem@sea-cam.com.
I think everyone in this thread would be interested in your results. I would be very interested to see how well it works. I think you will struggle with CA and contrast.

One of the options which was considered when designing CinePort was to use doublet to correct chromatic aberrations. I have drawings and specs of a fully corrected doublet using combination of optical glass of two different refraction coefficients (B270 and LF5 Scott glass) . It is higher quality than Rebikoff port described here. After ray tracing and analysis by an optical engineer it was decided that a better solution will be achieved using a specially designed dome (now known as CinePort).
Anyway, if anyone is interested I can on-sell the design. It contains all technical specifications needed to manufacture optical elements by an optical workshop. I have abandoned this design :bye2:

[Michael Hastings]

How do we trigger cache recording without a mechanical access to SHIFT button?

Good point, I didn't realize that you had to do that. It seems like a funky setup that you have to double enable it. My Ikegami Editcams - which have had prerecord for 10 years or more - you just put it in prerecord mode (Ikegami calls it retroloop) and it always does prerecord, i.e. every take.

I thought I was in prerecord yesterday because I selected prerecord in the menu - oops I might have missed some shots - since in some cases I was waiting for a few seconds to hit record because I thought I was in prerecord. Got lots of nice shark footage anyway.

With it always on - for commercials or dramatic type, you can use it to only keep the takes you want so I'm not sure why it is set up that way.

BTW which is the shift key?


Don't know if anyone is still interested but I got my hands on a Rebikoff port this weekend it is a little beat up but optically clean. I am thinking about building a housing around it. It was originally set up for the 5.9mm Angenieux which I also have and may use for 2K projects BUT since this post claims that any focal length lens will work with the Rebikoff I am going to check it out on the 18-50 Red Zoom tomorrow and the 10.5mm Distagon to see if I get corner to corner coverage in 4K. Anyone interested can contact me for the results. georgem@sea-cam.com.

I don't know if this is your first post here, maybe I missed some, but welcome to the bubble blowers George.

For those of you that may not know, George is one of the pioneers of underwater video. AquaVideo used to promote that we were the first to manufacture and market SELF-CONTAINED (i.e. camera and recorder in the housing) underwater video systems. That was because George was making housings for cameras with cable to the surface even before me. Early on he made some housings for the early JVC 3 TUBE cameras with cable to the surface for 3/4" or 1" recording and went more into the shooting end of things that even with that early gear hold up pretty well today.

He's not really 99 years old as his myspace page says - I think he's about my age and we were both pretty young back then - so a little closer to half that.

Re: the Ivanoff. George, I have some RED housings made so if you want to hook up and try to make a front plate with the Ivanoff in there to test give me a call. Are you still in Ft. Lauderdale area?

[jbeale]

Hope it's ok to post here even if I know nothing about underwater shooting.

I just got a question from someone who plans to print his own color chart on lexan or similar, for testing an underwater camera. Does anyone know if such a thing already exists? I would have guessed water conditions are so variable that you would never see consistent color in practice, but I have no experience with it.

[Michael Hastings]

Hope it's ok to post here even if I know nothing about underwater shooting.

I just got a question from someone who plans to print his own color chart on lexan or similar, for testing an underwater camera. Does anyone know if such a thing already exists? I would have guessed water conditions are so variable that you would never see consistent color in practice, but I have no experience with it.

Not that I know of, I have seen underwater shots of color charts but I think they were surface charts taken underwater. If you do it, I and others might be interested in buying one.

[jbeale]

Not something I was going to do, just a question I got from someone else. Making an underwater color chart that is accurate to some measured standard seems to me very difficult.

[David Nardini]

BTW which is the shift key?


It's the 'mode' key on the rear ... and it only works with the REAR record button (ie : mode + rear record to set it) then either record button to start the actual recording.

Cheers

[David Nardini]

Don't know if anyone is still interested but I got my hands on a Rebikoff port this weekend it is a little beat up but optically clean. I am thinking about building a housing around it. It was originally set up for the 5.9mm Angenieux which I also have and may use for 2K projects BUT since this post claims that any focal length lens will work with the Rebikoff I am going to check it out on the 18-50 Red Zoom tomorrow and the 10.5mm Distagon to see if I get corner to corner coverage in 4K. Anyone interested can contact me for the results. georgem@sea-cam.com.

When you are testing ... use the RED backfocus adjustment to compensate for the diopter you would otherwise need in between the Ivanoff and the 18-50 or the 10.5 (Mike has posted some values before for domes, and you could start with his figure and play either side); ie: avoid using a diopter as this will add CA. At the RED 18mm end it should be quite nice ;-)

Will be interested to find out how you get on. From my tests, you should be fine up to 90 degree FOV ... thereafter, the Ivanoff get to be a tad too big ;-)

Cheers

[Pawel Achtel]

Not something I was going to do, just a question I got from someone else. Making an underwater color chart that is accurate to some measured standard seems to me very difficult.

There are waterproof charts printed on plastic available, but why would you want an accurate one if water is a red spectrum filter? A subject 1m away will be coloured differently than one that is 1.5m away....

[CoralSeaTV]

Hope it's ok to post here even if I know nothing about underwater shooting.

I just got a question from someone who plans to print his own color chart on lexan or similar, for testing an underwater camera. Does anyone know if such a thing already exists? I would have guessed water conditions are so variable that you would never see consistent color in practice, but I have no experience with it.

Hi,

I have just started using a colour chart underwater. I know that the colour will change the further away from the camera it is however it gives you a reference and is usefull for colour grading. I was coveting the DCS labs versions that are $1400.00 and then I found this brilliant one made by Amphibico from B & H. It is around $107 USD. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/330875-REG/Amphibico_ACWB0711_Aluminum_White_Balance_.html The photo only shows one side the other side a standard colour bar chart. It comes with a lanyard.

Buy the way I just joined the red forum. I am an underwater natural history cinematographer from Sydney with an U/W housing that fits F900s and Varicams, HPX2000 etc. I am thinking about making a housing for a RED camera. I have had a quick look at some of the posts in this forum and it seems like there is some great info for professional U/W shooters here.

Regards


George Evatt
www.coralseatv.com

[Pawel Achtel]

Good find, George, and welcome to the forum!

By way of introduction, George is a very acomplished film maker with many respectable credits behind his belt. He shoots some really nice stuff underwater and topside. We have known each other for....is it a decade now? :sarcasm:

Glad you are getting yourself a real camera, George :innocent: