Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

[Bo Randers]

Designing Underwater housing.


Hi Red owners.


Mayby some of you RED users could help me out.

I am designing a underwater Housing for the RED camera.

So can anybody help me with this.

solidworks files, IGS or 3d scan of the
camera , Harddrive, LCD monitor. 18-50mm Red lens.
flir/thermal picture of the camera running.
Any info on weight, sizes would be helpfull.

I would rent one. But i am shooting in the Philippines at the moment. I have one on order. But waiting like everybody else.

Thanks.

Best Regards
Bo Randers
www.tvteknik.dk

[Michael Hastings]

Bo:

We have been making the housings for over 8 months and delivering regularly for the past two and a half months - both rental and sales. We are currently quoting 3 to 5 weeks and it could be slightly quicker depending on what juggling we have to do with rentals and housings for other cameras. (and of course slightly longer if I stick my hand in the mill again.)

Send me a pm if you have interest.

[Joseph Ward]

Hey You Guys! Im walking the plank.
Is there underwater housing for two RedOnes with Beam Splitter for Stereo 3D shooting?:pirate:

[lonny dill]

A round of applause to Aqua Video and Mike for his great Red One underwater housing.

We used the Aquavideo housing for three days in the channel islands and things worked great.

[Pawel Achtel]

A round of applause to Aqua Video and Mike for his great Red One underwater housing.

We used the Aquavideo housing for three days in the channel islands and things worked great.

Good to hear. Any images that we could see?

[lonny dill]

A round of applause to Aqua Video and Mike for his great Red One underwater housing.

We used the Aquavideo housing for three days in the channel islands and things worked out great.

[Michael Hastings]

Hey You Guys! Im walking the plank.
Is there underwater housing for two RedOnes with Beam Splitter for Stereo 3D shooting?:pirate:

Ayoji:

We looked at 3D seriously back in November but you are talking minimum $30K - 40K after we spend $50K or more in development costs, so the client decided not to refinance his house yet. But if you are ready to plop down that $30K deposit we could move it up on the todo list.

In all seriousness, if we were to pursue this it would be better during the slow time in September/October but it is never to early to start.

ldill,

thanks for the kind words. One of these days you're going to have to email me all the details of the August trip so I can try to weasel my way on as grip/schlepper.:biggrin:

PS ldill is not on 3d yet but they are close - doing sophisticated multicamera/multimonitor stuff.

[Pawel Achtel]

Anywone wanting to join our filming and diving expedition? Here are details (and pictures from the 2007 trip):

http://achtel.com/Trips/

This shoot will be with Red One, CinePort and the first 14mm Zeiss Master Prime lens to land in Australia.

[WesG]

hi guys,
wondering what fan settings you are using for your cameras in housings

I have my Red in a water housing and very occasionally getting shut down with a FATAL OVERHEAT MESSAGE.

I am currently using the default setting that has the fan on constant but then stops when recording.
I don't need it to stop so can do any setting - usually (not in housing you would go fan full time to keep it as cool as possible but I figure the air that is circulating will be super hot anyway.

What do you think??

[Pawel Achtel]

hi guys,
wondering what fan settings you are using for your cameras in housings

I have my Red in a water housing and very occasionally getting shut down with a FATAL OVERHEAT MESSAGE.

I am currently using the default setting that has the fan on constant but then stops when recording.
I don't need it to stop so can do any setting - usually (not in housing you would go fan full time to keep it as cool as possible but I figure the air that is circulating will be super hot anyway.

What do you think??


Ocean is the biggest heat sink you can have. What housing do you have and what it is made of?

[WesG]

fibre glass housing - shooting in relatively warm water - housing is in the water the whole time

anyone trialed different fan settings??

[Pawel Achtel]

fibre glass housing - shooting in relatively warm water - housing is in the water the whole time

anyone trialed different fan settings??

You can set the fan to maximum constant speed, but I doubt it is going to help. The problem appears that there is not enough heat transfer from your camera and air around it to water. Perhaps changing the design such that the camera would be mounted on a heat conducting element that can transfer the heat outside the housing would help. If you have engineering background, knowing thermal conductivity of fiber glass, thickness and surface area, you can calculate the thermal budget and estimate water temperature which would provide sufficient cooling. Another solution is to make a metal housing, similar to mine :whistling:

[WesG]

yep - you're on to it
will start thinking about a heat sink

thx!

[Pawel Achtel]

How do you guys focus underwater? Just curious.

[Ken Corben]

hi guys,
wondering what fan settings you are using for your cameras in housings

I have my Red in a water housing and very occasionally getting shut down with a FATAL OVERHEAT MESSAGE.

I am currently using the default setting that has the fan on constant but then stops when recording.
I don't need it to stop so can do any setting - usually (not in housing you would go fan full time to keep it as cool as possible but I figure the air that is circulating will be super hot anyway.

What do you think??

Setting the fan to "Hot" or high or what ever the label is now in the maintenance menu gives 80 minutes of standby time in my experience. Then adding a bag of frozen peas over a Kotex on top of the camera worked great in a PVC housing shooting in the surf in Hawaii.

A solution that seemed to also work was building an aluminum front plate for heat sink on the PVC housing with the fan setting on "Hot" (always on) worked well in the PVC housing in tropical waters in lieu of having to stand in line at the store with a box of Kotex :-)

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Ken,
Hows the 8R performing these days? I may be looking into one. Sheesh, on top of a wedding too, the missus will kill me :)

Break a leg.
Mark.

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi,

Can anyone suggest a manufacturer who makes a high quality simple bulkhead connector to get a HD-SDI signal out of my housing? I have been using a Impulse 6 pin rubber connector which was fine for a regular RF video signal but it does not work with an HD-SDI signal because it is a more sophisticated digital signal? Ideally I want two of them on my housing, one for the top mounted HD monitor signal and one to send an HD-SDI signal to the surface. I want to be able to remove the cable end outside of the housing i.e. so I can remove my top mounted monitor from the housing for transport and also so I don't have to have the surface HD-SDI cable attached when not needed. So I want the connectors to have waterproof caps. I currently also use Subatec connectors to get cableing in and out of the housing but they are non breakable. So I have to wire up a BNC etc each time if we want to add the 100metre cable for surface HD monitoring which is a real drag.

Any suggestions much appreciated.

Thanks

George
www.coralseatv.com

[Mark Thorpe]

I used to have a set of Isotechnic (Isotta) lights from Italy. They had a screw down cap sealed with an o'ring but not wet-mating. Ideal for topside prep and storage options along the lines you mention. Not sure if the company is still alive as I have not used them since the early 90's. Worth checking on though.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Nye]

Hi guys,


Shooting a UK feature on RED and looking for the best option for underwater housing (pool scene only, 2 days). The Aquavideo red system looks great are there any available for hire in the UK? Or anything else you would recommend?

If you've already covered this somewhere just point me in the right direction.

[Michael Hastings]

Nye:

What are your dates. I am trying to get David Groundwater's housing (he wanted custom wings/handle positions) done next week. He is in the UK.


Hi guys,


Shooting a UK feature on RED and looking for the best option for underwater housing (pool scene only, 2 days). The Aquavideo red system looks great are there any available for hire in the UK? Or anything else you would recommend?

If you've already covered this somewhere just point me in the right direction.

[Nye]

Unfortunately it's a little last minute. We want to shoot 18th - 20th of this month. Plus do a test day before that! would be great to get your system in but if it's still in the states might be pushing it a bit?

I am DIT on this and we have a bag that might be ok, i'm just really concerned about condensation and overheating. Much rather get in a specially designed red housing. How does the aqua video handle these problems?

[Ken Corben]

Hey Ken,
Hows the 8R performing these days? I may be looking into one. Sheesh, on top of a wedding too, the missus will kill me :)

Break a leg.
Mark.

I must say that the results at every level for the 8R lens are absolutely frickin' amazing. Arri has recently increased the price lately but WOW- the results are stunning!

I am planning on testing a flat port from Aquavideo for my pro housing so that I can shoot a 12mm equivalent underwater with this lens by simply changing the port from an 8" dome.

Geez - from FOV to color rendition to sharpness at any fstop, the 8R rules underwater. The RED 18-50 has also proven to be a workhorse underwater in two of our systems. A great PL lens solution given the price and availability.

I would reduce the size of the diamond ring for the missus and make the investment and pay the piper later. I know one of our colleagues is considering this after shooting with the 8R extensively the past 4 weeks :-)

Photo is a low res jpeg frame grab from redcine taken from the 8R lens shooting RED 4K, 500 ASA, 1/96, build 16, fstop 4 with no light in dark water. The HD 1080p prorez out is stunning!

[Pawel Achtel]

Geez - from FOV to color rendition to sharpness at any fstop, the 8R rules underwater. The RED 18-50 has also proven to be a workhorse underwater in two of our systems. A great PL lens solution given the price and availability.

Any shot (or crop) to see the sharpness?

[Ed Sauer]

Unfortunately it's a little last minute. We want to shoot 18th - 20th of this month. Plus do a test day before that! would be great to get your system in but if it's still in the states might be pushing it a bit?

I am DIT on this and we have a bag that might be ok, i'm just really concerned about condensation and overheating. Much rather get in a specially designed red housing. How does the aqua video handle these problems?

Nye,

We used our custom designed housing for the pool scenes in the feature "Samantha Darco". The pool was over 90 deg F. Overheating occurred in 30 min. It's an issue even with an aluminum housing.

In 80 deg F. water the camera has yet to overheat. 84 deg F about 45 min. to overheating. We have a fix that helps for both overheating and condensation.

An external underwater monitor is a necessity for focusing. Remote focus and video feed are better.

If you need our services PM me. We have a complete Red underwater package with DP and AC.

[Johnny Friday]

I must say that the results at every level for the 8R lens are absolutely frickin' amazing. Arri has recently increased the price lately but WOW- the results are stunning!

I am planning on testing a flat port from Aquavideo for my pro housing so that I can shoot a 12mm equivalent underwater with this lens by simply changing the port from an 8" dome.

Geez - from FOV to color rendition to sharpness at any fstop, the 8R rules underwater. The RED 18-50 has also proven to be a workhorse underwater in two of our systems. A great PL lens solution given the price and availability.

I would reduce the size of the diamond ring for the missus and make the investment and pay the piper later. I know one of our colleagues is considering this after shooting with the 8R extensively the past 4 weeks :-)

Photo is a low res jpeg frame grab from redcine taken from the 8R lens shooting RED 4K, 500 ASA, 1/96, build 16, fstop 4 with no light in dark water. The HD 1080p prorez out is stunning!

Dude.....where's the details in that image? sharpness, detail etc...??? I'm with Pawel on this one....show me the money honey--not just the letters----he he he, just kiddin. Looks totally awsome:bleh:

I think i remember that pond.....was very cool and looked even better on the screen than u/w

[Amund Lie]

Nye;

I am based in Norway and can fly to London on short notice with my AquaVideo housing, with or without #1670. So far used on one short, one feature and one cop series and works like a charm. With Nikon or PL mount and HD surface monitor cable.

Let me know if you're interested.

regards,
Amund

Oslo, Norway

[mpflannigan]

Greetings, We are planning to shoot in Northern Finland in the winter and my director has some concerns about the sub zero weather. Does anyone have any experience shooting in extreme cold?

[Johnny Friday]

Myself and Ken Corben just shot four weeks in Alaska underwater in temperatures ranging from the mid 30's F. We had no technical issues with the camera, but encountered a few times where we had to deal with fogging inside of the housing---but we did take care of that problem by drying out the housing with a hair dryer and packing it with hot towels---basically removing any moisture that got into the housing just by opening it on the deck. So that was all we encountered.
good luck

[Michael Hastings]

Two other things you can do for condensation are silica gel packets and also getting canned dry air or nitrogen and shooting it into the housing just before you close it - displacing the moist air.

Johnny/Ken: Question? I think I put vacuum ports in your housings, did you guys pull a vacuum for test and does that help with condensation?

(Note: the idea of the vacuum port is a small bicycle type valve (schrader valve) in the housing. To test that you have a seal, you use a small handheld vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the housing after you close it. If there are any leaks, the vacuum will drop off quickly. You use vacuum because it is much safer than pressurizing the housing.

[Nye]

Hey AquaVideoRed206,

So we are are going to go with the Aquavideo system for our shoot, really looking forward to using it. Hope you can get it sent out to the UK in time. Our back up is 16mm so counting on you guys to keep our shoot RED.

Really appreciate all the help coming forward from reduser and the Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group on this.

Nye.

[Johnny Friday]

Two other things you can do for condensation are silica gel packets and also getting canned dry air or nitrogen and shooting it into the housing just before you close it - displacing the moist air.

Johnny/Ken: Question? I think I put vacuum ports in your housings, did you guys pull a vacuum for test and does that help with condensation?

(Note: the idea of the vacuum port is a small bicycle type valve (schrader valve) in the housing. To test that you have a seal, you use a small handheld vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the housing after you close it. If there are any leaks, the vacuum will drop off quickly. You use vacuum because it is much safer than pressurizing the housing.

Hi Mike,
I wasn't aware of the canned air. I'll try that next time. We did not pull a vacume, but only because we had the rubber line crack on us somehow. I think Ken got a vacume on it, but then somehow the line got pinched and cracked. But is a great idea and a great piece of insurance. I now use a vacume guage on any and all of my housings before dunking the camera. Saved me once already.

[Pawel Achtel]

Hi Mike,
I wasn't aware of the canned air. I'll try that next time. We did not pull a vacume, but only because we had the rubber line crack on us somehow. I think Ken got a vacume on it, but then somehow the line got pinched and cracked. But is a great idea and a great piece of insurance. I now use a vacume guage on any and all of my housings before dunking the camera. Saved me once already.

Keep in mind that any pressure change inside the housing will affect the back focus, which would have been calibrated at ambient pressure :whistling:

[Michael Hastings]

Keep in mind that any pressure change inside the housing will affect the back focus, which would have been calibrated at ambient pressure :whistling:

Not arguing, but can you explain - how does the pressure (probably only 10psi - max 15) difference change the backfocus if the pressure is equalized? Is it the three or four inches of air that you would be shooting through normally that now is a vacuum that is having an optical effect? Or would it be something physical actually changing the backfocus distance, similar to heat expansion/contraction? Any way to quantify and therefore compensate?

PS Glass 8" domes arrived about 2 weeks ago. Was too busy last week and this week to design the dedicated front plate so a couple weeks until ready. (Dedicated front plate isn't much more expensive than making an add on to the normal plate AND it allows us to have the opening even larger. Opening on standard frontplate is quite large - accepts the Arri 8R - but is just about a quarter inch too small to allow use of the 10mm Ultraprime.) Beautiful Hoya glass with nice AR coating. I'll post a photo tomorrow.

[Pawel Achtel]

Refractive index of vaccum is 1.0000, refractive index of air at 30in Hg pressure is about 1.0003. When you focus on virtual image plane behind a dome port, due to very short DOF, this change may be significant.

This could explain why all of the IMAX shots taken below 300ft that I have seen were very soft and looked out of focus to me. But, maybe it was something else. :blink:

[Michael Hastings]

Refractive index of vaccum is 1.0000, refractive index of air at 30in Hg pressure is about 1.0003. When you focus on virtual image plane behind a dome port, due to very short DOF, this change may be significant.

This could explain why all of the IMAX shots taken below 300ft that I have seen were very soft and looked out of focus to me. But, maybe it was something else. :blink:

So if you found that a good fixed setting for say an 8R, UP 10, or 12mm was 15" how much would the vacuum/RI 1.0000 to 1.0003 change that?

Why would the below 300 feet matter - were they pressure compensated housings (i.e. air or whatever was introduced under pressure to offset depth)? Most housings are just whatever pressure they were closed at and stay that way regardless of depth - unless of course there is a leak!

[Pawel Achtel]

So if you found that a good fixed setting for say an 8R, UP 10, or 12mm was 15" how much would the vacuum/RI 1.0000 to 1.0003 change that?

That, I don't know. But I do know that when I installed internal wheel filter on F900, which was just 0.1mm thicker, all focus was way out on three colours. There was no way to focus the camera at all. It makes me think this is very critical part of the lens.


Why would the below 300 feet matter - were they pressure compensated housings (i.e. air or whatever was introduced under pressure to offset depth)? Most housings are just whatever pressure they were closed at and stay that way regardless of depth - unless of course there is a leak!

Not IMAX housings, no. Howard Hall injects air (or Nitrogen) with depth (and purges it on ascent). His IMAX housing would crush in just ~30m, I think. So, there is more than 30x the atmospheric pressure inside the housing at the bottom. This would be very significant. And, I think, this is the reason those images are so soft. Have you seen them, BTW? If not, watch them. I have seen SD footage sharper than this. Seriously.

BTW, Have you seen hot air changing refractive index? Warm air is less dense than cool air, and the variation between the hot air at the surface of the road, and the denser cool air above it creates a gradient in the refractive index of the air.

Lastly, the changing ambient pressure is not very good for the lens, which would suck in moisture and dust on each test. Unless it is a Master Prime (sealed).

[Johnny Friday]

Well, all that said and i can tell you that I have not experienced focus issues when i've pulled a vacume on my housings. I've not gone beyond 4 or 5 atmospheres though.

I expecet what you are saying is true, but to what degree and at what ATA would you expect unreasonable fall-off?

[Pawel Achtel]

Well, all that said and i can tell you that I have not experienced focus issues when i've pulled a vacume on my housings. I've not gone beyond 4 or 5 atmospheres though.

I expecet what you are saying is true, but to what degree and at what ATA would you expect unreasonable fall-off?

I am pretty sure you haven't gone past -1 atm (~101kPa) pressure difference :biggrin: You can't pump vacuum beyond 0 atm (or -1 atm relative pressure) because the ambient atmospheric pressure is 1 atm. It is not possible and this is just basic law of physics. You can only pump positive pressure above 1 atm. This is what Howard Hall does.

Secondly, wrong back focus does not mean your pictures will be out of focus. If you are focusing using screen or view finder, they may be OK as long as you can actually see the critical focus on the screen, which with wide angle you can not :blink: . The back focus affects focusing using witness marks, which is essential in larger formats. This is what I was referring to.

What camera have you used and how did you focus? Can you post some frames (crops).

BTW, I am yet to see a single frame from underwater footage taken with RED that would be sharp and almost as good as some respectable topside footage we see on this forum.

[Mark Thorpe]

BTW, I am yet to see a single frame from underwater footage taken with RED that would be sharp and almost as good as some respectable topside footage we see on this forum.Wait a few more months, cogs are turning......

[Pawel Achtel]

Wait a few more months, cogs are turning......

he he he, you beter be quick, mate. It would be a disgrace if I beat you to it. :bleh:

Attached is the picture of CinePort-MP14. It started as 60lb block of Titanium grade 5 (!!!). This is significantly different than your garden variety grade 2 alloy. Anyway, the raw material, apart from costing more than brand spanking new AquaVideo housing, was machined at a special air-space/military facility in Adelaide to a shell weighing mare few pounds and wall thickness of 1/8" and precision of 0.05 mm - a bit of rocket science.

Five new pieces of CinePort glass have just been coated, passed individual QC and are on their way across the Pacific.

Witnes marks (focusing distance) conversion for combined CinePort optics has been completed (I am still curious how you guys intend to focus underwater).

Lens servos are already done. Now working on the titanium back plate.

Cogs are turning here too :construction:

[Johnny Friday]

he he he, you beter be quick, mate. It would be a disgrace if I beat you to it. :bleh:

Attached is the picture of CinePort-MP14. It started as 60lb block of Titanium grade 5 (!!!). This is significantly diferent than your garden variety grade 2 alloy. Anyway, the raw material, apart from costing more than brand spanking new AquaVideo housing, was machined at a special air-space/military facility in Adelaide to a shell weighing mare few pounds and wall thickness of 1/8" and precision of 0.05 mm - a bit of rocket science.

Five new pieces of CinePort glass have just been coated, passed individual QC and are on their way across the Pacific.

Witnes marks (focusing distance) conversion for combined CinePort optics has been completed (I am still curious how you guys intend to focus underwater).

Lens servos are already done. Now working on the titanium back plate.

Cogs are turning here too :construction:


Pawel, very nice stuff man. By the way when i was referring to ATA in depth you misunderstood me....i meant me diving at that ATA---not the housing pressure inside. Just want that to be clear since there is some misunderstanding in many of the posts.

As for focusing etc....I just use my good old fashioned eye. Of course I did many tests underwater finding set points for focus distances as well as a hyperfocul setting.

Myself and a few others have been shooting red for a variety of documentaries and we are pleased with the outcome of our tests to prores 422 as well as to the big screen. Not every shot can be a mastered Ansel Adams shot....although we all strive for perfection as you must know being a professional shooter you don't always get a perfect shot everytime---well maybe you actually do and that is why you post the way you do and it offends you to see anything less---which in that case is understandable no?

I Like all of your Nasa gear--very nice, the best that money can buy and only a few can afford. Should be finished about the time Epic comes out no? In the meantime I guess I and a few others will just have to do the documentary work we are doing and hope for the best.

[Mark Thorpe]

Johnny my man. I saw some of the imagery from your recent shoot mate. Good stuff. I am also relying on my eyes to get this work done. If the plan comes off we been discussing I think we will be able to jointly share the fruits of that labor with the rest of the gang here.

'til then Mum's the word. :greedy:

Cheers,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

Johnny my man. I saw some of the imagery from your recent shoot mate. Good stuff. I am also relying on my eyes to get this work done. If the plan comes off we been discussing I think we will be able to jointly share the fruits of that labor with the rest of the gang here.

'til then Mum's the word. :greedy:

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark,
You know me amigo.....i would gladly share imagery with you Russ, Ken, Aqua and others that would look at it and comment constructively. It's one thing to share views constructively and another to just rip into people and their images with nothing but negativity with nothing constructive to say.

I respect what many have to say in this forum. That said I think it's a forum to help with the tools we have in our hands and those that are accessible for the majority of us. Their are the high enders such as Pawel that have a time and place, but let's talk reality as to what most of us work with and can afford---especially when times are a changing every year and equipment changing with it.

Look forward to more with you soon in Indo or Africa Mark. Looks like that's a wrap with the nat geo project for me and now i have time to work on imagery in La Paz---now's the time here for the big stuff. I'm also working with FCP server and using as my stock imagery logging device. Having a time working out some advanced settings, but it will be great for archiving stock.

ps...I'll be the first to admit that what we shot in Alaska was not the best stuff when it comes to CA and low light conditions/shooting. BUT, it was all shot at the limits of our gear and climactic conditions. The topside is unbelievable. U/W---well, now i know why you don't see a lot of u/w docs in the pacific northwest under the conditions we shot---loads of planctonic bugs, low visibility and just plain dark, dark water. This truly stretched the RED and any camera to its' limitations. We had loads of CA and found out many cans and can-nots. We've shared them with many of you personally. BUT sure looked great after post and in 422 prores and even as great on the big screen with the selects....I'll let KC comment further as i think that's about all i can say being the low man on the totem pole as a mere camera operator.

[Russ Campbell]

Hey Johnny. Agree with you wholeheartedly. I am really looking forward to getting my RED underwater next month. Should be 'Raggie' season at Aliwal. As you mentioned, we will get down to doing the filming now regardless of the bit of CA under difficult lighting conditions and 'soft' images that the great underwater photographers have had to put up with over the years. I will happily get my NASA housing when NASA employs me. Until then, we will have to be content with having our footage shown on NG or BBC:wink:

[Pawel Achtel]

I will happily get my NASA housing when NASA employs me.

They will only employ you if you are worth it. If you are worth it, then you are better off employing yourself. If you cannot afford something, it means you are not worth it - tough, but true.



Until then, we will have to be content with having our footage shown on NG or BBC:wink:

They will not pay you enough to do this properly.

I am not criticising you guys for the sake of it. I am struggling to understand why would anyone film with a 4k camera (with all the cost and difficulties associated with it) where a superior result can be achieved with consumer grade camera (albeit this conclusion is not immediately obvious or easy to accept by most people). In my view, unless you actually go through a lot of trouble, cost and effort, the mere fact of shooting 4k has no benefit whatsoever. The limiting factors (even with HD) are the optics, lighting, and many other features apart from sensor resolution and camera qualities. Just trying to help make it economical for you, that's all. I always give my honest opinion. But, if flattery makes you happy... :biggrin:

BBC and Nat Geo do not pay much, if anything. They are in a business of making money and paying you as little as they can get away with or less. BBC would not even look at my footage. They can't afford it anyway. If BBC and Nat Geo are your goals, you should be spending money on pitching your ideas to them rather than making good pictures or capturing unique animal behaviour. I decided to do the later and never look back :biggrin:

[Michael Hastings]

Using titanium doesn't make it a NASA housing. I've sold multiple housings (most of them PVC!!!) to NASA on multiple occasions starting in 1986. You can see an AquaVideo housing near the beginning of one of the IMAX Space shuttle films in the Neutral Bouyancy Lab in Houston (IMAX Dream is Alive or one of those). They appreciated the corrosion-proof and nearly indestructible nature of the PVC housings and SPECIFIED dome ports.

I've sold a pretty good number of RED housings (mostly aluminum because that's what they wanted) and probably could have charged $15K instead of the $8499 price and most would have paid it, but I try to price fairly relative to the cost and time involved.

I'm still trying to understand the great advantage of the Cineport? Looking at the drawing it looks as if it is just a portion of a 300mm (approx. 12") diameter dome port. Very nice, but we have access to these from multiple sources at reasonable prices (sub $3K end user).

And it seems that your design limits it to use with the 14mm or greater focal length - kind of strange to say a 14mm Master Prime is a limiting factor but there are many situations where a wider lens of slightly less optical perfection like an 8 or 10 Ultraprime (or god forbid maybe even some superwide still lenses) will provide a better result by allowing shooting through MUCH less water.

While I wouldn't argue too strenuously against the premise that the inherent CA and curved focus plane of dome ports with extreme wide angle lenses probably limits the resolution to less than the 3.2K (this is the commonly accepted actual "debayered" resolution) of the RED. And remember CA is easily corrected in software for still photos and this capability will certainly become practical for RED footage in the not too distant future.

However, I would argue against the premise that therefore we might as well shoot with some cheaper hidef camcorder. Many of these people spent 14K or more for a Z1 and housing (and most of that was for a housing which has a high level of depreciation) and current equivalents like the EX1 are even more expensive, so spending $20K on a camera $9K on a housing and $5k on optics (birger and some excellent canon glass) isn't out of range at all. Especially since those optics (while maybe slightly less quality than the Master Primes) are probably equal or superior when used on the RED compared to any of the $20K+ plus HD B4 lenses, and VASTLY superior to the builtin lens of a prosumer camcorder with a wide converter.

The other part of the equation is that regardless of the limitations of relatively cost effective wide angle lenses/underwater ports for the RED - there are no such limitations for closeup and macro shooting where you are using extremely sharp longer focal length lenses through flat ports and very little water - which can easily resolve more than 4k.

And even with wide angle, many shoots happen in clear water conditions at higher f-stops, which can offset some of the limitations of the wide angle/dome setups.

[Pawel Achtel]

Aqua,

As usual, the devil is in the detail and I think this is largely where we may have different or possibly same views. CinePort is not a traditional piece of glass. There are only few facilities in the world that can manufacture it. It is something that took a decade of engineering approach to perfect. The key word is optimisation and this is where it is revolutionary. The concept is 100 years old. The execution is not. Its strength, like with most optics, is in designing and matching various parameters and executing the design with superior surface finish and tight tolerances. Most of those properties are not immediately obvious when you look at the final solution, so there are two ways you can judge it: by looking (analyzing) images or trust me (which I know you won’t :w00t: ). For the time being I have only HD interlaced images. I would not hesitate to put them for comparative analysis against any 4k wide angle underwater footage out there - even just for fun.

Regarding angle of view, yes it is limited to 14mm (on S35) view or less and this is to achieve the best image quality possible. I would rather compromise the angle than the overall quality. You can go wider, but then you start getting considerable CA and out of focus corners very quickly. You are beter off shooting through some more water at some point and, this is the point.

I remain unconvinced that still lenses, while theoretically viable, are reasonable solution for wide angle underwater cinematography. I have three CinePorts that can use 14mm f/2.8 Canon prime (using Seacam mount). I decided not to use them for various reasons; one of them is difficulty in adjusting critical focus? Although, the image quality should be pretty good and better than that you can achieve with most underwater still camera setups. If you have a client wanting such solution, PM me offline as I no longer have a need for them.

As to PVC housings; well, I tried them in the past and I find it more economical to spend money on something that is perfect, rugged, that will last lifetime with any camera and hard professional use. Cooling is one major problem with PVC. I don’t say they are not good for some odd wet jobs. To the contrary, there are many uses where such design has merit. It is just not what I would use for my work, that’s all. Also, you cannot design an equivalent lens mounting part out of PVC. It would break in less than 10m of water. The titanium piece is good for all extreme diving depths, light weight, it will never scratch, it will never corrode and it will reliably seal for 1000 years.

Regarding flat ports, yes they work great and offer practically no significant loss of quality for macro work. They are also next to impossible to get the focus right in 2k and 4k takes this challenge to a new level. A good friend of mine, Dave Hannan is a master of underwater macro. He uses motion control, periscope snorkels, 4-axis rigs and special macro lighting - very impressive stuff.
He uses 2/3" for all his macro. One good reason S35 is not best for macro is that DOF for an object 5" off the lens is ridiculously small.

My cup of tea is wide angle. And, whilst I still shoot a fair bit of macro, the vast majority of cost and effort go into wide angle setups.

[Johnny Friday]

.....Agreed Pawel....
I'm going to see about applying as baggage handler for you to learn the ropes.

I doubt anyone is looking for praise. Far from it. Solutions man. But lest we stray too far from the path. what you said is a bit idiotic about working for bbc and nat geo. many a good camera operators have worked for them and still do--Possibly none of your caliber--i think you are a one of a kind---you place yourself in a class of your own amigo... Yes, they probably could not afford you, but you don't seem much the team player anyway. So can't imagine you working on a production where a team counts. I do see you as a one man king of underwater imagery kind of guy....but the picture of that is not pretty.

by the way, MP's are not the only solution and you've been schooled on this already. There are professionals out there I respect and know of their work that have had tremendous results with still lenses....Nikon in particular. These are just guys i know and respect and have access to MP's and UP's. They've done the work and not just touted as you do that only cine glass is appropriate for 4k work. I won't argue your points, but i'm working now and booked for a number of projects. Yes, we've put our work up on a large screen and the results are stupendous. Yes, we trash a lot of shots. But don't you? Maybe not. You probably shoot 90% keepers eh?

Anyway, happy with my results and the execs are to so yes i guess something is working. But just as you Pawel we are striving to produce better images all the time. You offer very little to this forum except a bloated ego. I'm sure i'm not the only one with that opinion. But had to get it out....sorry but it's true and not meant to be anything other than constructive towards you. I want you to be better Pawel and to strive for perfection--not just with your images, but as a talented and masterful image maker that gives this forum something useful......ha, that'll be the day. hey, all joking aside....Thanks for nothing.

[Pawel Achtel]

.....Agreed Pawel....
I'm going to see about applying as baggage handler for you to learn the ropes.
You are always welcome to join on any trip (http://achtel.com/Trips/). Actually, the vast majority of people I worked with loved it and are waiting for more. I do like working in a team. The atmosphere is always very relaxed and humourous; much more than on any other professional shoot. :biggrin:


You probably shoot 90% keepers eh?
It largely depends on surge and current. Wide angle, yes on average I can nail it close to 90% of time sometimes better. But macro; I struggle to get 10% shooting ratio - and that's HD. Many others do much better than that and that's mostly with lesser cameras :bleh: But, on a rare occasion when I get the focus right :blink:, it is nice. I like the results.

Unlike most others, I like shooting in poor viz, murky, green, cold water.


... but as a talented and masterful image maker that gives this forum something useful......ha, that'll be the day
Sorry my comments weren't useful thus far. Oh well, I can only try to improve :biggrin:

[Mark Thorpe]

They will only employ you if you are worth it. If you are worth it, then you are better off employing yourself. If you cannot afford something, it means you are not worth it - tough, but true. It all depends to what approach you take. I am employed by National Geographic on a one year renewable retainer, so I guess I am worth it. Some people just attack what they can't get I suppose, maybe they are not worth it also :bleh:

Wanting something but not being able to afford it comes down to simple economics, Save and buy it, period. Your notion of not being being worthy to have that which may be out temporarily of your financial grasp is demeaning, derogatory and is an affront to the majority of people here. I guess we cannot all have the talents which you have obviously mastered but I am sure that us minions prefer our out of pocket camaraderie above alienating ourselves, as you tend to do very well.

Until we can all sit around and pore over some 4k stills supplied by you I guess there will always be skepticism regarding your claims as to the effectiveness of your exclusive CinePorts. Please supply us with these stills as the ones on your site are just thumbnails and obviously don't allow us to get an accurate idea of the benefit of using these ports. All we have is your word at this moment :sick:

Until then I'm going to dream of attaining your level of self proclaimed dominance in this chosen filming genre.

Dive safe,
Mark.

[Pawel Achtel]

Mark, glad you cracked Nat Geo, good on you.

As I said, I only have frames from interlaced HDCAM material. Below are three 50% scaled full frames and coresponding 1:1 crorner crops. The viz on the coral reefs was ~20m, on the sea jelly less than 10m. The sea jelly was from very close distance ~20cm, the corals are from a larger distance, to give some variety. It's not the best footage, just something I had handy. It is not corrected in any way other than de-interlaced using Photoshop. No colour correction, etc.. The contrast is as it was shot. There is some motion blur, but not much. All frames are from a slow steady pan. They obviously look much sharper on a moving picture, but stills are good for comparisons and analysis. They seem to resolve almost 1.4k - about the limit of what HDCAM is capable of. I can not see CA more than 1 pixel. BTW, no, you can not completely fix CA. You can bring the colours together, but the corners will be still soft.

To make meaningful comparison, you need to scale 4k frames down to 25% and, for the crop, 50%. Or, in other words, downsample to 2k, which would work in your favour due to better camera/chip resolution.

[Pawel Achtel]

a few more (all shot with CinePort). No colour correction, contrast "as shot", all de-interlaced with Photoshop.

[Michael Hastings]

Couple points on Pawel's samples. Seems to me they have the normal slight softness at the edges. It is very hard to be scientific without side by side comparisons with shots of the same subject, same conditions, but I don't see any difference that jumps out at me between his shots and those from the Varicam/HDCam shots from housings I made (and others) using the normal domes we have used in the past.

Here are a couple quick photos of our new glass domes. Will be available as soon as I finish making a separate front plate, since the dome is actually outside of the regular frontplate when centered. It is Hoya glass made, ground, and coated in Japan because we felt it was superior to the Chinese made. I have been told by a friend that has much more experience with all of the various manufacturers that it is superior. Don't know how it compares with cineport but hard to believe it isn't very close. I like the titanium which offsets the weight of the dome a bit, but I don't like the limitation of the 14mm (on RED it is equivalent to a 22 on SLR) which is due to using the smaller slice of the dome. Essentially you would get the same results with ours with the 14, but have the option of going much wider as well because ours is a full hemisphere. Of course, cineport might be slightly better if the optical grinding or coatings are superior to what we were able to find.

I sometimes wonder though if the cineport isn't like the Spinal Tap guitar amplifier that goes to 11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akaD9v460yI

[Pawel Achtel]

Again few more. All CinePort. No colour correction. Contrast "as shot". The sea dragon picture in ~3m viz

[Pawel Achtel]

I sometimes wonder though if the cineport isn't like the Spinal Tap guitar amplifier that goes to 11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akaD9v460yI

Funny :bleh:

[Johnny Friday]

Pawel,
i thought you liked shooting in poor viz, murky, green water? can you show some clips from that? and where are your 4k screen shots? oh yeah, you're not working yet. Shooting under ideal conditions? blue water, great viz on coral reefs produces clean images that I think anyone would be hard pressed NOT to achieve. Show those compelling shots under stressful conditions amigo to school us all on how to make beautiful images under such conditions---you should have a plethora of those images to awe us all no? you know, your favorite conditions

I think I'll pass on joining your dive trips. I can only imagine such a trip. Pawel, i hate to break it to you amigo, but you're not a people person.

[Johnny Friday]

It largely depends on surge and current. Wide angle, yes on average I can nail it close to 90% of time sometimes better. But macro; I struggle to get 10% shooting ratio - and that's HD. Many others do much better than that and that's mostly with lesser cameras :bleh: But, on a rare occasion when I get the focus right :blink:, it is nice. I like the results.

Unlike most others, I like shooting in poor viz, murky, green, cold water.
:biggrin:

Pawel, I'm not surprised. in all honesty i can say that most shooters i know could never compare to your ratio. But that's me and others being so meticulous....at least IMHO. But what surprises me is that 100% of your shots are not keepers. We now know how much you love your work....how could any of it not be a keeper.

....thanks for the insight of a pro. again not useful.

Oops, guess i blew it and will never be working with Pawel.....oh well

[Pawel Achtel]

Pawel,
i thought you liked shooting in poor viz, murky, green water? can you show some clips from that? and where are your 4k screen shots? oh yeah, you're not working yet. Shooting under ideal conditions? blue water, great viz on coral reefs produces clean images that I think anyone would be hard pressed NOT to achieve. Show those compelling shots under stressful conditions amigo to school us all on how to make beautiful images under such conditions---you should have a plethora of those images to awe us all no? you know, your favorite conditions

I think I'll pass on joining your dive trips. I can only imagine such a trip. Pawel, i hate to break it to you amigo, but you're not a people person.

I’ll give you a courteousy of responding to your trolling.

These ARE images taken under relatively stressful conditions. The visibility never exceeded 20m (*), and in case of Grey Nurse sharks, it was 5-10m and sea dragon was shot in just 3m viz. It was GREEN water when I was filming Grey Nurse sharks and they were filmed in NSW on rocky temperate reefs in 16 degrees Celsius. The sea dragon was filmed in the most treacherous seas, strong currents off Kangaroo Island under raging seas and 16 degrees water. The sea jelly was filmed in really murky water with lots of suspended particles. The 35mm DSLR stills taken with Seacam dome and housing from the same dive of the same subjects were not as crisp, even after manipulation in Photoshop.
The leopard shark resting was filmed in 5m viz. There is a still picture from 35mm DSLR on my website of me filming it. It was shot without a flash, but you can still see a lot of particles in the water. The DSLR image was heavily modified in Photoshop, mine wasn't.

I told you that I did not have underwater 4k footage. I was on a topside shoot recently. I said I was happy for you to compare my HD footage to that of your 4k. I am still waiting for some frame grabs. You see, a good film maker does not have to blame the weather conditions, which seems to be a common excuse if/when people post their samples here.

And, you are absolutely right about not being the kind of person that would feel well on our trips.

If you have something constructive to add about underwater optics or post your 4k images to compare with my 1.4k or otherwise, you are most welcome. I am not the subject here and your trolling will not be taken kindly.

If my posts, samples or information are useless to you, the best advice to you is to ignore them. It is that simple.

(*) The way I measure viz is the depth from which I can just see the objects or people on the surface. The CinePort can see more and further than you can see through a dive mask.


Couple points on Pawel's samples. Seems to me they have the normal slight softness at the edges. It is very hard to be scientific without side by side comparisons with shots of the same subject, same conditions, but I don't see any difference that jumps out at me between his shots and those from the Varicam/HDCam shots from housings I made (and others) using the normal domes we have used in the past.

Aqua, my repeated invitation to post some samples to compare.


Essentially you would get the same results with ours with the 14, but have the option of going much wider as well because ours is a full hemisphere.

Whilst it does not seem immediately obvious, this is actually not exactly true. The MTF of a section of a wider port is not exactly the same as that of a narrower port. There are number of factors that contribute to image quality, some of which have to do with the way the lighting is controlled around the lens, optical elements and inside the port. There are good reasons why images taken with CinePort have high contrast and stand out clearly against other taken in the same conditions using other optics and irrespective of the capturing format. It has a lot to do with how lighting is controlled and a wider dome does not work as well. You will see this in the image being milkier, less contrasty and flare is more easily produced.

[Johnny Friday]

what is trolling? is that to do with fishing?? i do that all of the time mate. in fact doing it next week.

....as usual Pawel not useful information. Keep up the personal praise. You do make nice images....no one here denies that. Your just a pain in most peoples butt with how you post and give very little to this community other than nothing will do other than your system and your very own professional experience. Great! but once said is enough.

...I've never suggested that my images were stunning and that my system is the only way to shoot etc...I merely post what I've done and add what problems I've encountered and how i have countered them. I leave all imagery and personal props to you amigo.

...I'll just continue working as i do and leave it at that.

[Mark Thorpe]

These ARE images taken under relatively stressful conditions. The visibility never exceeded 20m (*), and in case of Grey Nurse sharks, it was 5-10m and sea dragon was shot in just 3m viz. It was GREEN water when I was filming Grey Nurse sharks and they were filmed in NSW on rocky temperate reefs in 16 degrees Celsius. The sea dragon was filmed in the most treacherous seas, strong currents off Kangaroo Island under raging seas and 16 degrees water. The sea jelly was filmed in really murky water with lots of suspended particles. The 35mm DSLR stills taken with Seacam dome and housing from the same dive of the same subjects were not as crisp, even after manipulation in Photoshop.
The leopard shark resting was filmed in 5m viz. There is a still picture from 35mm DSLR on my website of me filming it. It was shot without a flash, but you can still see a lot of particles in the water. The DSLR image was heavily modified in Photoshop, mine wasn't.

Wow, challenging conditions for sure....:excl:


You see, a good film maker does not have to blame the weather conditions, which seems to be a common excuse if/when people post their samples here

Uhhh, isn't that what you just wasted a whole paragraph doing? :glare:

Until we can all compare 4k images with Pawel setting the standard I suggest we all just calm it down a little. The proof, they say, is in the pudding and we're hardly through our appetizers yet with regards to dipping our cameras so time will tell.

Let's look forward to that, doff our caps to each others respective successes and buckle down with work. Its gonna be a great ride.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Amund Lie]

Enough already!
Come on guys, this forum is becoming drenched in Pawel-this and Pawel-that.

Even though he does have some valid technical points and appears to be a brilliant engineer, this man is someone who only wants to have the last word in every debate, and getting nowhere in the process. The whole thing reminds me of a school yard shouting contest. Baja, stop taking the bait from Pawel, he only revels in your obvious irritation at his posts and remarks. Just ignore the guy!

I am sure we are all eager to get on with our own things more than listening to arguments about whether or not his fantastic gear is better or worse than ours, and instead get out and do some beautiful shots in the 2 to 4K range.

[Amund Lie]

But of course we need technical/operational debates, don't get me wrong on that.

What I'd like to see debated is:
- Manual focus control solutions. What kind of gears are in use, and how are they fitted? Pictures!
- Lens choice, still vs. cine. Is there any optical quality difference, and does it matter?
- Safety issues: Lens controllers can and do leak (with poor maintenance). Wouldn't you rather have salt water on your own $500 Nikkor than the clients' $50.000 Zeiss?
- Birger mount: What is the progress here, and how would one fit it and the controllers into the housing?
- Weighting: With bits and pieces added (lights etc), the housing soon becomes heavy. How to neutralize and balance the housing
- Lights: What kind do you use, and why
- Exposure: UW shooting has some of the most extreme contrast ranges (surface sun vs murky bottom). How do you expose?
- Filters: fitting colour correction filters and using them
- Underwater grip: Tripods, supports, how to get a heavy housing in and out of the water etc
- Dive gear: Rebreathers vs. air. Buoyancy issues, keeping warm, communication equipment, air for actors

Perhaps a small market place too: "Trade you this for that/I can make that for you/I have some stuff sitting on a shelf here"

Job opportunities: "Help needed/Can you step in/I've heard about a job in ...."

Work experience: How to handle actors in the water/how to handle animals in the water/how to handle clients above water etc, etc, etc

Something tells me this might have to move to a different web page or forum altogether, because the RED forums in general are becoming impossible to search for interesting information anyway. 90% of the stuff here is people raving about RED as a company or other opinionated posts that add nothing useful about how to own, operate, and make a living on the RED.

[lonny dill]

I just wanted to provide some valuable info from our latest underwater shoot off the coast of Belize.

We combined the Birger mount, Red, Viewfactor, Canon EF lenses and the Aquavideo housing to pull off some killer 4K footage.

For years, we have been spoiled with the autofocus feature from the FX1 and the BlueFin housing which by the way is still great technology. But, when your shooting with the Red camera in 4K, focus is critical and is near impossible for the diver to accomplish by viewing the underwater lcd at depth. We saw no other way to accomplish this task than by teaming up with Erik Widding(Birger), Mike Hastings(Aquavideo) and Kurt(viewfactor). The Birger allowed our director to stay on the boat dry and comfortable while our divers framed up the shots at depth. The Birger software allowed our DP to adjust the focus and the iris using a 200' tether and the Birger software. We also ran an HD-SDI feed to the surface and gave the DP a 22" monitor to make critical focus happen. To save Mag space and speed things up in post, we used the Viewfactor on/off button to start and stop record at precise times. The Aquavideo housing protected our Red camera and functioned very well. The housing is balanced well and was great for free swims. The only feature I wish I had was zoom control. The Birger software doesn't currently have a prevision for zoom control. But, Zacuto sells a clamp on gear that can be placed onto your Canon lenses. I've heard that Kurt and Erik have been talking and may soon provide a motor that may be interfaceable and will daisy chain off of the Birger mount. Underwater filming with Red is becoming more and more a reality everyday.

[Johnny Friday]

I'll second the focusing. I fount it terribly difficult to focus using the LCD and in fact don't find it to be a tool for focusing. I think we'll have to find a way to get that EVF into a housing in order to make any real attempts at focus. Additionally having precise focus control is a must. I worked a lot using Mike's hyperfocal settings and it worked out for much of my shooting. But when it comes to nailing focus edge to edge on macro or shallow DOF settings, we really need precise focus, iris and zoom control. I think Mike might be working on some solutions for that. I'll be retrofitting my housing with those controls soon as i find them a must have. The EVF, well again waiting on a solution. I also think Mike is working on that. Seems the lemo connector is the holdup for now.

[Michael Hastings]

I'll second the focusing. I fount it terribly difficult to focus using the LCD and in fact don't find it to be a tool for focusing. I think we'll have to find a way to get that EVF into a housing in order to make any real attempts at focus. Additionally having precise focus control is a must. I worked a lot using Mike's hyperfocal settings and it worked out for much of my shooting. But when it comes to nailing focus edge to edge on macro or shallow DOF settings, we really need precise focus, iris and zoom control. I think Mike might be working on some solutions for that. I'll be retrofitting my housing with those controls soon as i find them a must have. The EVF, well again waiting on a solution. I also think Mike is working on that. Seems the lemo connector is the holdup for now.

Johnny:

Birger with canon EOS is the easiest way to get iris and focus control - particularly when switching lenses because no gears are used. As you know we can do the gears for the PL lenses but they are fussy and expensive ($3K-$4K for a set for focus and iris)

I finally have the cable/LEMO connector issue resolved acceptably for both LCD and viewfinder, and the viewfinder is actually pretty easy to house - I have done that sort of thing in the past with Varicam/HDCAM so I already have part designs and some parts on hand. I just need some time with a viewfinder. I am trying to decide whether to make the body of the viewfinder housing aluminum or plastic - I know everyone likes aluminum and there is not much cost difference but the plastic is lighter so less negative bouyancy issues - feedback?. I am trying to get 8 more housings out the door in the next week or so and then I will have time to make the parts for the viewfinder, and also more LCD external housings. (I made several LCD housings back in March but shelved them waiting for the cable - now I am just waiting for a new order of Delrin to come in. )

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi Aquavideo,

Attached is some pics of my recently constructed HD monitor housing for my 2/3" camera housing. It holds a Panasonic monitor which is huge compared to the little Red monitor. We were going to build it from aceytal but you can't get a big enough block of it in Australia so we went with welded aluminum. We painted it with some fancy 2 pack boat hull paint and so far there is no corrosion or lifting of the paint. Amazingly this housing is positive with the monitor inside and actually gives some much needed lift to the front of the camera housing. The aluminum is about 5mm thick but the guy who made it for me strengthened the corners and I reckon it is good to about 45m depth which is deeper that I wanna take the housing anyway. The weakest link is the acrylic front face which is 15mm. I am really interested is finding out about the connectors/cables you are using to get the viewfinder signal from the main housing to the monitor housing?? Also lastly I am posting these pics to show-off what a beautiful bloody monitor housing I have, please do not mention that it's a little clunky! Also I can access to the monitors inbuilt waveform monitor while underwater which is excellent for HD as it is so fussy about over exposure. I will initially planning to use this monitor housing on my RED camera housing which is under construction at the moment.

Regards


George
www.coralseatv.com

[Mark Thorpe]

George, great monitor. What is the bottom line on it? Cost wise. Part Number? What are the tech specs on it also?

Cheers in advance.
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

Guys,
In general I've been out of the loop for quite some time. Busy with getting a couple of projects sorted in Belize and then a return to South Africa. Then of course there is my impending wedding at the end of October.

To that end I've been starting to look around at Macro issues for RED and lens control. I would like to look at adapting either a Tamron 90mm f2.8 prime for my system. The main issue is that it does have a telescoping lens issue for telephoto. This means though that I will just set the lens to work a specific focal length on a per dive basis. Pain in the ass I know but I am looking at spending a very long and protracted period working on a specific project. So basically diving on a per sequence requirement basis on small small critters.

Any ideas, discussion points to address?

Cheers for any suggestions.
Mark.

[Tom Lowe]

Getting married, Mark? Congrats!

Where is the wedding?

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Tom,
Yep I guess it happens to us all in the end eh? Finally found my soul mate, well about 4 years ago actually, and we've set the date for a small wedding ceremony in Yokohama, Japan. No plans for an immediate honeymoon depending on project dates etc. Just finished with the rings, hers is diamonds on Platinum whilst I settled for Platinum and Gold mix.

Small chapel close to Yokohama so that her grandmother, who is almost house bound, can also attend.

Looking forward to it. I would post an image of my significant other but I know that Finner patrols these threads ........ i just can't trust that cod piece!!

Cheers,
Mark.

[Tom Lowe]

haha, well congrats. sounds like it will be a nice ceremony.

keep me posted when you're in town next time. i'm sure we can find some trouble to get ourselves into! ;)

[CoralSeaTV]

George, great monitor. What is the bottom line on it? Cost wise. Part Number? What are the tech specs on it also?

Cheers in advance.
Mark.


Mark,

The HD monitor inside is a Panasonic 7.9" BT LH80W. The monitor housing cost me about $3.5k Australian to have made (the HD monitor was about $2.5K (so that's $6000 all up, yikes!)

Underwater you can (1) turn the monitor on and off. (1) access pixel for pixel in HD, (2) Access built in waveform monitor, (4) Access the Panasonic "Focus in Red" focus check system which is not all that good. Unfortunately it cannot receive cable TV, which would be neat while waiting for coral to spawn.

That's about it, I made a sun shade for it out of some 1mm plastic sheet stuff. All up that whole thing is pretty large. Once HD monitors get to around 6" I would make it out of aceytal as it is very easy to work with, does not corrode and is very light.

Regards


George

[Mark Thorpe]

haha, well congrats. sounds like it will be a nice ceremony.

keep me posted when you're in town next time. i'm sure we can find some trouble to get ourselves into! ;)Hey no worries Tom. May also look at doing some more photography soon too. I have just managed to get my first concept image reserved by the management company of a recording group for an ID shot I had for their weekly radio spot in the UK. It's all good. The wedding is set for the end of October.

Hey George, thanks for that info. Much appreciated. Shame about not getting cable though. SHeesh, at that price you would have expected it right? :biggrin:

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Once HD monitors get to around 6" I would make it out of aceytal as it is very easy to work with, does not corrode and is very light.

Regards


George

George, nice job on the monitor. We are making ours out of Delrin (acetal) - as you point out it is a great material to work with (if a bit expensive). With hd-sdi on the RED limited to 720p (live) it is hard to get a monitor that performs much better than the RED lcd, and you get the camera controls that are on the RED lcd as well. Our housing also has controls for the buttons on the top which mirror the buttons on the side of the camera so allows you the zoom function as well as the user programmables.

Mark: congrats on the wedding. Another one bites the dust, but seriously nice to hear you found your soul mate.

[Mark Thorpe]

Mark: congrats on the wedding. Another one bites the dust, but seriously nice to hear you found your soul mate.Cheers Mike, appreciate it.

Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Since birger is finally coming on line it's time to talk lenses.

Anyone here used the Tokina 11-16mm f2.8? about $570 and available for both Nikon and Canon.

Although I already bought the Canon EF-S 10-22 f3.5 - 4.5 I'm looking for the best solution for the RED housing customers.

I have heard very good things about this tokina 11-16, i.e. that it is sharper - particularly in the corners - than either the Canon or the Nikon 12-24. And of course it is an f2.8 constant aperture.

I don't mind the short zoom range - I bought the lens for the superwide aspect and would have been fine if it were just a fixed focal length prime and the tokina is a good compromise. It doesn't sound like much but 10-22 is 2.2x zoom and 11-16 is only 1.5x and in general it is much easier to make high quality lenses with limited zoom - particularly wide angles.

Mark Crabtree has already been using this lens for topside and says it works fine with his birger mount.

[Steve Gibby]

For land based wide angle creative shots with RED One I've been using the Nikon 14mm f2.8 ED - with excellent results. It is the widest angle rectilinear prime lens that Nikon makes. I don't dive for shooting, but rather surface and near-surface shooting of water sports (surfing, jetski, etc.). I'll be one of the first people to take delivery of Epic and Scarlet. I'll have custom lightweight aluminum surfzone water housings made for my Epic and Scarlet cameras by SPL Waterhousings in San Diego. I was the one who helped SPL design the first custom lightweight aluminum surf zone housing made for RED One several months ago. SPL did a very nice job fabricating that housing. The Nikon 14mm may be the lens I use on Epic in my splash zone housing. Epic's full frame S35mm sensor should dance real well with the Nikon 14mm's wide field of view - a 114 degree FOV on a full frame sensor - and I like it being rectilinear.

Again, the Nikon 14mm f2.8D ED AF is an excellent wide angle lens - and it has the aperture ring so it can be used with dumb or smart mounts on RED.

BTW - IMO for deep dive housings for RED cameras, Mike Hastings (AquaVideoRed206) is hard to beat...

[Johnny Friday]

Mike,
I think Gibby's on the right track. After using my 18-50 for a few months now underwater and topside. I am convinced I'll stick with a few prime lenses for underwater---Macro however will be a different story.

I was thinking of buying a zeiss 14mm PL mount superspeed and just might do so very soon. BUT, another solution that seems nice to me is the Cannon EF a4mm f2.8L lens. I think it just might be a great u/w solution---anyone else care to comment? I'd like to get it and try it out before I get the zeiss. I can tell you that shooting the zeiss 8mm PL produced incredible results....and super sharp edge to edge as compared to the RED 18mm wide open. I think shooting a prime lens should surely produced crisper results imo.

7022

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Johnny any price notes on those lenses, the Zeiss 14mm and the 8mm? If thats the 8R I guess I know that price tag, steep.

Macro wise I am very much erring toward the Tamron 90mm f2.8. I already have that glass. I can understand some people getting cold feel due to the telephoto aspect and the telescoping of the lens. I reckon there's not too many issues with that in regards to what I need it for.

Cheers.
Mark.
P.S Got the notes so I guess we wait for Stuarts feedback.

[Johnny Friday]

Mark,
Just made a call to a local camera store in Ca. and this is what I got:

EF 14mm f/2.8L II USM: price in USA around: $2,299.00

as for the Zeiss 14mm superspeed...i haven't checked yet. I expect a big tag though. I checked on a used zeiss 14mm f/2.0 ??can't recall if which it was---but not a superspeed: but price used: $6,500 and PL mount.

Yeah...the 8r is $32k +or-

i think i'm going with a prime lens 60mm for macro.

[Steve Gibby]

The Nikon 14mm f2.8D ED AF rectilinear cost me $1,500 USD from B&H. Beautiful lens - very crisp, clean, and contrasty - and no bending weirdness. IMO it would work very well in deep dive situations - and in the surf zone. Several reviewers gave the lens high marks, and since I bought the lens and used it extensively now, I can second those excellent reviews.

[Johnny Friday]

just went to B&H site....and the Cannon 14mm L series goes for $2,049
here's the link: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/519474-USA/Canon_2045B002_EF_14mm_f_2_8L_II.html

**Also looks like Aquatica makes a focus gear for it for $90usd
....here's that link as well: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/449019-REG/Aquatica_18713_Focus_Gear_for_Canon.html

I'm game for that lens.....I'll definately have it in my u/w kit.

[Mark Thorpe]

Cheers Johnny.
I will be able to get a better Internet connection in South Africa so will check out lenses etc if I have time to there. I will also be having a good chat with Russ and Cindy about stuff so all is good.

How was the homecoming?

Cheers,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

Mark,
what I also like about that EF lens is that it was made to work with the bayer sensor as far as i heard. So it might be a better lens than even the zeiss glass considering it's made to work with digital photography---sounds logical to me as was explained to me.

....being home is great. but loads of things to do. Working on the boat everyday since it's hurricane season and got some pretty cool hurricane weather shots over the past week.

[Mark Thorpe]

Cool Beans dude (pssst, it would help if you took them out of the fridge), let me know if you need a pair of hands around the place, I need to get the missus working to save up for more glass.....:)

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Mark,
what I also like about that EF lens is that it was made to work with the bayer sensor as far as i heard. So it might be a better lens than even the zeiss glass considering it's made to work with digital photography---sounds logical to me as was explained to me.

....being home is great. but loads of things to do. Working on the boat everyday since it's hurricane season and got some pretty cool hurricane weather shots over the past week.

Not only is edge to edge and full aperture performance improved on the series II lenses but with RED we are only shooting the center of the 14mm Canon (which is a full frame lens) so it should be the sharpest wide angle other than - maybe - an ultraprime or masterprime.

I still think for a lot of things you are going to want a wider lens than a 14 - most of the modern video wide angle lenses we have been using for the past 7 or 8 years have been closer to the angle of view of the 10 to 12 mm on RED.

[Mark Thorpe]

I still think for a lot of things you are going to want a wider lens than a 14 - most of the modern video wide angle lenses we have been using for the past 7 or 8 years have been closer to the angle of view of the 10 to 12 mm on RED.Yep, agreed. As wide as possible without breaking the bank, is that possible ? Is there any given formula for working out the angle of view in degrees in relation to the focal length of any given lens? ie what should we expect as a field of view in degrees from say a 10mm as opposed to a 14mm? I have gotten so used to shooting the Z1 with the Fathoms 120 degree external WA adapter lens. What focal distance lens would be required on RED to replicate the 117 degree FOV of the Fathom SWP44?

Cheers,
Mark.

[Gopher77]

Hey guys I'm bidding a documentary that requires three under water shoots over the next year, exact datres are TBD. We have a red but no housing or other underwater specific equipment. I have a scuba liscense, but have never shot underwater, so I don't want to learn with a clients money at stake. At least one dive will be a cage dive. PM me with your rates if you are interested. The shooting locations are Hawaii, and Puerto Rico.

Thanks,
Gopher

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey guys I'm bidding a documentary that requires three under water shoots over the next year, exact datres are TBD. We have a red but no housing or other underwater specific equipment. I have a scuba liscense, but have never shot underwater, so I don't want to learn with a clients money at stake. At least one dive will be a cage dive. PM me with your rates if you are interested. The shooting locations are Hawaii, and Puerto Rico.

Thanks,
GopherPM sent.

[Amund Lie]

I have a 12mm Zeiss T2.1 PL mount lens for sale, currently with Mike at AquaVideo in Ft. Lauderdale. PM him or me if you are interested.

Amund

[Michael Hastings]

Yep, agreed. As wide as possible without breaking the bank, is that possible ? Is there any given formula for working out the angle of view in degrees in relation to the focal length of any given lens? ie what should we expect as a field of view in degrees from say a 10mm as opposed to a 14mm? I have gotten so used to shooting the Z1 with the Fathoms 120 degree external WA adapter lens. What focal distance lens would be required on RED to replicate the 117 degree FOV of the Fathom SWP44?

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark: This is my point - virtually all of us have been using substantially wider lenses than a 14 on RED. I don't know if the Fathom is 117 horizontal or diagonal but the Canon chart shows 10mm is 107 diagonal on APS-C (virtually identical to RED) so even less horizontal. The Arri chart shows the 10mm Ultraprime is 100 degrees horizontal and even the 8R is only 110 degrees horizontal.

This is why I suggest the 10-22 Canon or maybe better the 11-16 tokina as the sort of "standard" underwater lens with RED with the possibility of the 14mm for the "ultrasharp" work in very clear water.

What we all kind of wish for (still photographers too) is an EF-S prime lens version of the 14mm which would be about a 9mm, but nobody knows if or when that might happen.

[Mark Thorpe]

Fathoms SWP44 is diagonal FOV.

I suppose this is more as a desire to have the widest possible image for filming the big stuff. I am sure 100 degrees is also fine having also shot extensively with Amphibico's offerings a few years back. There was only one lens that beat them back then and that was the Thelacetor at 112 degrees. Nice but real expensive.

Its all well and good looking at Canon's etc but we are still missing that elusive Birger smart mount. I've been told, next week!!

A prime EF-S 8mm !! Now wouldn't that be a thing of beauty? One can dream I guess.

Stay well mate.
Mark

[Johnny Friday]

Mark,
why not go big and get the zeiss 8mm ultraprime? I see someone offering one for sale on the forum. He might take your house in trade---worth asking anyway. Probably won't take mine though.

I do love that 8mm ultraprime though. It was a crisp lens and after using it and then going back to the 18-50 red it was like going back to an old sony TR101. HUGE difference.

[Mark Thorpe]

Mark,
why not go big and get the zeiss 8mm ultraprime? I see someone offering one for sale on the forum. He might take your house in trade---worth asking anyway. Probably won't take mine though.

I do love that 8mm ultraprime though. It was a crisp lens and after using it and then going back to the 18-50 red it was like going back to an old sony TR101. HUGE difference.Dude, I've only got one money tree fer chrissakes!!! :waaa: hehehe

[Mark Thorpe]

Someone is looking for a RED underwater shooter in LA for a day at he weekend. Anyone available?

The mail appears in the Jobs / Equipment Hire section:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18977

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

I have access to some good zeiss T2.1 PL mount lenses in very good condition.
2-14mm and 2-12mm- presumably mid to late 90s vintage. I will see them Monday or Tuesday so don't have pricing yet but I am told will be very good pricing from reputable people.

Trying to gauge interest among the bubble blowers. Also Roughly what should these go for? - remembering that PL lenses are going up every day as more and more REDs come on line (and if the dollar keeps falling making anything new or used from Europe even more expensive).

PM me if you are interested as these are very hard to find (I have had my eye out for the last six months - as has Ken Corben and Johnny Friday) One of the 12mm's for sale is the one I have had for several months as I already committed to buying the 10mm from the group for my own use. The 10 is really big , so requires a special port and only focuses to 14" so big dome as well - the 12 and 14's fit in the standard port size and close focus enough for even 6" ports no problem.

I have not mentioned these on other threads as I want to give the bubble blower's first shot as wide angles are really necessary for us.

I believe these are the specs:
10MM Arri/Zeiss PL Distagon T* 2,0/ 10mm T2.1 - front diameter 156mm close focus 14"
12mm Arri/Zeiss PL Distagon T* 2,0/ 12mm T2.1 - front diameter 135mm close focus 10"
14mm Arri/Zeiss PL Distagon T* 2,0/ 14mm T2.1 - front diameter 114mm close focus 9"

Photos are NOT the actual lenses.

[Mark Thorpe]

OK so now that we are all sitting down. What's the price on these puppies, respectively??

I'll say it first.........eek!

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

OK so now that we are all sitting down. What's the price on these puppies, respectively??

I'll say it first.........eek!

Cheers,
Mark.

I'm not sure - pl have gone nuts in the last six months but I think we are in the $5-7K range for the 14mm and 6-7K for the 12s.

[Mark Thorpe]

......and the 10mm ??

[Michael Hastings]

......and the 10mm ??

about $10K. AFAIK there's not a lot of difference between the older 10mm and the Ultraprime 10 (same T-stop diameter, etc.) which is about $23K new.

EdIT: Found some ballpark prices for New Arri Zeiss Ultraprimes

8mm Ultra Prime Distagon T2.8...... € 21,147.00... $30,451.68
10mm Ultra Prime Distagon T2.1..... € 15,921.20... $22,926.53
12mm Ultra Prime Distagon T1.9..... € 15,274.60... $21,995.42
14mm Ultra Prime Distagon T1.9..... € 11,893.20... $17,126.21

[Jon Shaw]

I reckon you guys have probably already seen this but here is an update regarding the GATES housing for RED

http://www.marinevisions.com/Deep-Red-Underwater-Video-Housing-Update-nid-3.html

[Michael Hastings]

I reckon you guys have probably already seen this but here is an update regarding the GATES housing for RED

http://www.marinevisions.com/Deep-Red-Underwater-Video-Housing-Update-nid-3.html

Thanks for posting this ginclear.

Although the photo appears to be a press type/public domain one I thought it would be a little rude for a competitor to post it so use ginclear's link to take a look or maybe one of you can post it.

I had seen an earlier email describing this but not an actual picture, so I had made some speculative comments privately to my customers but now I can share my thoughts publicly.

First, I thought Gates might do it this way as it fits there "boxish" style housing. That style had a real advantage for cameras like the Sony HVR-Z1, EX1 and Canon XH-A1 - where you had a handle, microphone and other things sticking up and out that meant you could make a substantially smaller housing with a rectangular shape than the smallest circle that would fit all of those things in - which was a very bulky 10.75 inch diameter with lots of wasted space. This is not true of the REDONE because it is almost perfectly shaped to fit a cylinder. The top is round, and the sides protrude out so the sides (and the connectors) fit into the curve. Consequently we can fit the REDONE into a 9" diameter cylinder. 1.75" different diameter doesn't sound like much but you have to remember that the volume increases exponentially as the cross section increases (the side length squared for a box or radius squared for a circle). You can add quite a few inches to the length before you reach how much you increase it by adding just an inch or two to the cross section.

I doubt if you can get much smaller than what we have achieved with our cylinder (and we have reduced weight and volume further by machining the flats on the outside). Without dimensions of the Gates housing I cant calculate the volume exactly but I'm pretty confident it won't be smaller, and it may actually be larger.

The other big problem with that approach is that you greatly increase the frontal area so a lot more drag pushing it through the water. (BTW these same volume/drag issues apply to the element technica housing which uses the topmount and rods to hold the battery and drive behind the camera, that was posted a little while ago on another thread - it appears to be a significantly larger tube, quite possibly the 10.75 inch diameter since that is the standard 10" pipe size - our 9" is a special size tube.)

The only real advantage of placing the drive and battery on top is this:

Quote from Gates: "It also allows access to the rear control panel. Our design team has worked out details to access all salient rear buttons and joystick –the latter being a clever and challenging one indeed."

We can hit the buttons pretty easily (several of which you can have programmed with your preset functions anyway), but the rotary knob is certainly tricky and tougher for us because it would require a long shaft actuator from the back, or gears and multiple controls from the top to be able to turn and push.

But first, consider that the need to use these functions is fairly limited. Remember that most of the things we did with video cameras - white balance, iso, gain, color shift, gamma, knee, black stretch, etc. DO NOTHING TO THE RECORDING ON THE REDONE because we record the RAW sensor data. All of that stuff only affects what it looks like on the live LCD. And then that stuff gets set in post in REDCINE and again does not affect the recorded data - only the exported data - be it quicktime, PRORES, DPX or whatever. So setting or changing underwater does nothing. But if you want to, you can do many of them underwater with the direct switches or the presets.

Second, most of the things you need the knob for like shutter angle, varispeed ramp, time code or naming adjustments, etc. would be pretty rare to need to be set underwater. We decided not to even attempt to incorporate the rotary knob control (if you have used rotary controls on other video housings you may have found them to be a bit fussy/unreliable anyway) because we have good alternatives:

One: we have always anticipated that RED would make a handheld remote/ccu like the ones that have been available on virtually every broadcast camera. (As a bit of history here's a partial list of broadcast cameras we have housed: Sony BVP-3, BVP-30, DCX-M3, DXC-3000, BVW300, BVW400, BVW600, DVW700, F900. Panasonic RECAM, AJD310 D3, DVCPRO AJD200 and 700 AWE600, AWE800, Varicam. Ikegami DNW7, DNS-201, Hitachi HV-C10 HV-C20, etc.) ALL of these have small handheld remotes that handle all of these functions and are much easier to integrate into the housing - either internally or in a small external box. Presumably RED will make one of these or at least provide remote access through the RS232 or USB as it should have better/easier access than the other cameras.

Two: even without a CCU, and if you need more functions than available via presets, there is another method that provides the same capability as the rotary knob on the camera and is much easier to implement and use. Although it requires some additional expenditure, it is a fraction of the difference between the price of our housing and the announced price of the Gates housing. It provides substantial additional capability to the setup besides just the rotary functions control, and it does not require any addition to the housing size so can be retrofitted to our existing housings. Since Gates may not have figured this one out yet, I will leave it for a later post/announcement but it will be available with new orders or to our existing customers in a month or so.

For those that may not be aware, our aluminum housing pictured below (there is a less expensive PVC version) is $8699.00 with acrylic dome (with interchangeable 8" domes, Macro ports, extension rings, etc. available) and our 8" AR coated glass dome option is available now ($2399 - requires its own dedicated frontplate, $1899 at time of housing order but you would need the standard frontplate to allow use of the other interchangeable ports.) I don't know what the official announcement was, but I had heard that the price was to be $18K or more, and there current announcement says they are now looking at a glass dome but I don't know if that would be standard or an option.

As far as lenses the Gates announcement says this "At this juncture the RED 18-50 and Birger/Canon/Nikon are the only ones for sure."

AquaVideo has already have shipped more than a dozen housings setup for Birger Mount Canon lenses, Arri 8R, RED 18-50, Arri 10mm Ultraprime, Arri 12mm t2.1, Nikon manual still lenses, Contax/Zeiss manual still lenses, etc. (We even set two of them up for remote control of iris, and focus with a 150' cable to the surface.) All except the 10 fit fine with the large diameter of the standard frontplate that uses the large standard Aquatica thread mount (the 10 is just too big and requires the glass dome plate) and you can use long macro and other lenses with the macro port and/or extensions which screw into the standard frontplate.

The mountplate shown is an older one, there is more space between the battery and the camera rear now but gives the basic idea.

[Pawel Achtel]

...The other big problem with that approach is that you greatly increase the frontal area so a lot more drag pushing it through the water. (BTW these same volume/drag issues apply to the element technica housing which uses the topmount and rods to hold the battery and drive behind the camera, that was posted a little while ago on another thread - it appears to be a significantly larger tube, quite possibly the 10.75 inch diameter since that is the standard 10" pipe size - our 9" is a special size tube.)

Yes and no.

The difference between 10" and 9" on a 55cm long tuble is 2kg. I use 10" and therefore can accomodate F900 and most other cameras, maybe except F23, but who cares, LOL.

I can also maintain centered position of the lens with Red One and other cameras which, with 9" tube, you can't (it has to be offset and changes from camera to camera). You need different front plates, which is OK, but with 10" tube you don't. I shed more than 2kg by using titanium instead of plastic, but agree, even 2kg is a lot when it all adds up. Also, I think my housing at 55cm (tube only) is slightly shorter, so the saving by using 9" tube may not be that significant.

One advantage of Aquavideo and my housings over Gates/HH design is their vertical stability in water due to longer design. I find short housings "wobbly". So, I agree with the shape considerations.

I also agree about the access to all controlls, you don't need them underwater. If you happen to afford 1% of your remaining attention to something other than focusing, framing, neutral buoyancy, camera movement, steadiness, etc...it would be your diving equipment and attention to stay alive - it helps more than being able to adjust white balance on the monitor.

Also, I presume, the housing will be disposable for EPIC or any other mechanical change, including different lens options. No 100% trade-in for Epic swap offer, I guess.

Gates still haven't revealed how they intend to solve critical focusing of various lenses through the dome. That one will be most interesting to see, for me anyway.

Any ND filer stages?

It just shows designing a housing for a cinema camera is far from simple and often requires many compromises. R&D is enormous if you want to perfect it.

I look forward to seeing DEEP RED housing in its final shape, it certainly sounds interesting.

[Michael Hastings]

Yes and no.

The difference between 10" and 9" on a 55cm long tuble is 2kg. I use 10" and therefore can accomodate F900 and most other cameras, maybe except F23, but who cares, LOL.


Alright, check those meds Pawel!:biggrin:

Picking nits here:

First I was comparing to 10.75" Diameter which is the OD for 10" standard pipe size

.927 lbs. per cm for 9" 51.02 lbs. 1.32 lbs. per cm for 10.75" 72.79 lbs

which gives a whopping 20.7 pound increase - close to 10 KG.

But even if you are using a true 10" OD
.927 lbs. per cm for 9" 51.02 lbs. 1.15 lbs. per cm for 10.75" 63 lbs

it is still 12 pounds more which is 5.5 Kg.

.........


I hear you on the ability to use multiple cameras - I have a 10.75 inch housing that I have used for BVW300A, DVW700 HD and for a Varicam basically with different mountplates and frontplates. Of course this was made much simpler because the iris, focus, zoom, and tape start/stop was all through the lens and we could use the handheld ccu to control all the camera functions.

Most importantly though - the biggest thing I like about the REDONE is that it does fit in a package that is about 30 per cent smaller than any of the broadcast video or 35mm film systems and gives us equivalent or better quality.

When I started with a BVW30 in the 80s we had 120 pound setups that were difficult even for two people to get in and out of the water and almost impossible for one person. Then with the BVW300 size we dropped to 75 or 80 lbs. - fairly easy for two and possible for one. Now at just over 50 lbs it is really easy for two and not hard for one person to get it in and out.

The 9" size is perfect - we can use virtually any lens - I can even just barely fit my Arri 10mm ultraprime which is huge.



Also, I presume, the housing will be disposable for EPIC or any other mechanical change, including different lens options. No 100% trade-in for Epic swap offer, I guess.

We can accommodate various lenses with extension rings for the dome, or macro ports which are interchangeable on the standard frontplate.

The EPIC shapes that have been shown are so dramatically different retrofit wouldn't make much sense. As far as tradein - I am happy to double the price to $18K and offer full tradein, but I am guessing that most people would rather just pay the regular $8599 without the trade-in option.:biggrin: I will offer some level of tradein, though.

[Pawel Achtel]

Alright, check those meds Pawel!:biggrin:


You're right, 5kg :clown2: I should have read the label, it clearly says: "Don't post in Underwater Bubble Blowing Users Group within 24 hours after taking the medication". LOL

One thing, though, my 10" ID machined (!) tube is only 3mm thick, or thin, so the OD is just 10.2", not 10.75". So, the difference in OD between mine and yours, shouldn't be 1", probably just 1/2" or so. Then, my end result may look good again despite those nasty side effects of my meds :biggrin:

What is the length of the tube in your housing, looks much more than 55cm?

Either way, the external form factor looks very similar to my housing. I like how it balances underwater.


are so dramatically different retrofit wouldn't make much sense. As far as tradein - I am happy to double the price to $18K and offer full tradein, but I am guessing that most people would rather just pay the regular $8599 without the trade-in option.:biggrin: I will offer some level of tradein, though.

True, I was referring to the Gates housing. Yours should adapt more or less, no?

[ScubaMagazine.net]

It is nice to see many of the well regarded underwater videographers and cinematographers and associated colleagues here....apparently all with credits cards limits set to the "stun" setting. ;)

[Mark Thorpe]

Finally back in the mix. Just spent a week on a Sea Lion colony surrounded by water, white sharks and wafts of, well you don't wanna go there......

Mike, got your offer on PM. Watch this space for news coming soon.

Johnny, any more of that and you will go blind........!! :)

ScubaMagazine.net, or we're just people who realize you get what you pay for. Image quality in the end is what we are about.......

Cheers all,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Mike, got your offer on PM. Watch this space for news coming soon.

Cheers all,
Mark.

You big tease!:biggrin:


Glass domes and frontplates are finished and ready to ship. sharkguy, Johnny, amund, and bert are first on the list. Will post pictures tomorrow. Been too busy shipping to get the pictures done. Mexico RED housing yesterday, HVX200 rental housing today, and Russian RED tomorrow, Bert's Thursday or Friday. Meltdown Saturday.:biggrin:

[Mark Thorpe]

You big tease!:biggrin:


Glass domes and frontplates are finished and ready to ship. sharkguy, Johnny, amund, and bert are first on the list. Will post pictures tomorrow. Been too busy shipping to get the pictures done. Mexico RED housing yesterday, HVX200 rental housing today, and Russian RED tomorrow, Bert's Thursday or Friday. Meltdown Saturday.:biggrin:hahaha, sounds better than 2000 incontinent sea lions IMHO......:red_bandana: "Har, where's me Buccaneers"? "Under ya Buckin' Hat"!

[John Bock]

Here's the latest on the Gates housing for the Red One.

http://www.gateshousings.com/PR.html

I'd love to know how much that baby is going to cost...
Actually, maybe I don't want to know after all. :sad:

[Mark Thorpe]

Take a seat.........circa $20 to $25k.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Note:

Graeme posted this on the gibby underwater thread, thought I'd move it over here.


Was just wondering whether any of you guys who're ranting about RED have tried to see how far one can zoom into a good glass port with, lets say, the 18-50 zoom lens.

I realize that in an ideal world we'd change to a flat port for macros, but how far could one push a "generic" short zoom through a dome?

Graeme:

Welcome to the board.

We just finished our 8" glass dome so will experiment a bit as soon as I get a chance - a little busy trying to get things done before dema dive show next week.

[Pawel Achtel]

Graeme,

Zooming changes the position of entrance pupil in the lens. Simply put, you can't zoom through a dome and expect good results. Not unless you change the camera position at the same time.

It is extremely difficult to adapt wide angle terrestial lens to underwater. And, it is costly. In the past decade I spend literally more than $100k on R&D in this area and it is still an ongoing process. The solution is gradual optimisation and refinement, there is no silver bullet. Using special surface finish, coatings, geometry, precision, optimum angles, flare and stray light control, etc...will get you some improvement.

You can get reasonable results with off-the-shelf domes, like Aquatica or Seacam using fixed focal length lenses. But, don't expect comparable MTF characteristics to equivalent terrestial setup, not even close.

If you shoot narrower than 60 degrees diagonal, you can use flat port. You can zoom through a flat port, no problem. At wider angles you will see CA in the corners and pin-cussion distortion. To couteract shoot wide open and keep angle of view to minimum with a flat port.

Happy Fishes!

[Mark Linthicum]

Need under water housing for shoot in Hawaii, anyone have one for rent in LA?

Mark

[Michael Hastings]

Need under water housing for shoot in Hawaii, anyone have one for rent in LA?

Mark

Call me, I have a couple customers with housings in LA and if unavailable we can ship from Ft. Lauderdale - Delta Dash same day service for less than $150.

[Are Pilskog]

Hello aquavideo
I couldn't find your e-mail adress, so I posted a meesage for you here at the reduser. Please reply when you find the time.
Are

[C.H.Haskell]

Hey Guys

Anyone point me to someone near NYC whom I can rent a housing for my R1 in November (maybe December)?

Thanks...hope all is well around here.
cheers.

[Pawel Achtel]

Mike, I think I will leave this one for you to comment on. LOL :innocent:

It looks like this "beauty" is available from "The Power Broker": http://www.cineused.com/Film_and_Video_Equipment.html

http://www.cineused.com/UW%20red.jpg http://www.cineused.com/UW%20red3.jpg

[C.H.Haskell]

Wtf? :)

[C.H.Haskell]

Ok I must admit I am a lil scared to use this thing but....if it does not leak or sink to the ocean floor (actually controlled pool scenario) then I will look into it...I know my options are limited but any other rental houses in NYC area? Thanks for the feedback.

[Michael Hastings]

Pawel. I haven't seen that one, but I think the power broker is Ken Rich on the west coast so doesn't qualify for NYC. Haskell, I'm not in new York but at least I'm in the same time zone (Ft. Lauderdale) call me if I can help you out - Delta dash shipping is only $150 same day service. (Our rental rate is $550/day $1900 week.)

BTW I'm sitting in the McCarran airport waiting for the redeye back to ft. lauderdale from las vegas and the DEMA convention.

I had a chance to see the nearly completed Gates housing and talk to John. I have to admit it is a pretty sexy housing and he has obviously put a lot of good work into it.

Of course I'm partial to our approach based on price, simplicity, frontal area/drag, multiple port options, etc. (not to mention availability). But John's a good guy with a good product and a good track record so I'm sure there will be work for everybody and soon we'll be able to spark up some good debates on the bubble blower thread.

[Pawel Achtel]

Mike, I wasn't suggesting Ken's housing would be near NYC or recommending it for the job, well any job. I was more fascinated about the unusual design and workmanship. I hope the Gates housing looks bit more respectable than Ken's.

Anything you can share? How is focusing solved and what choice of lenses and ports?

Have they done any testing of the combined optics in the water?

[C.H.Haskell]

hey Mike...Thanks for the info. You know I am excited about Deep RED, I like what ET is cooking and eventually I will be interested in buying your housing for reasons you mentioned. I will PM you when I get details...your rates are fair, really just want to get sputnik under water! If you have any more links with photos on your UWH and how they work I am interested Mike.

Cheers.

[C.H.Haskell]

Any links with Dema coverage on Gates Deep RED debut?

[Nick Ambrose]

Any links with Dema coverage on Gates Deep RED debut?

Gates housing looks really nice, if somewhat bulky. Hard to say how it would be in actual use (seems like you could balance it to be neutral).

EDIT: I did see the AquaVideo housing too, and it looked decent but a different direction than the gates (v.long & tubular compared to the boxy/square gates direction)

[C.H.Haskell]

Atm the moment i am leaning towards the Aquavideo RED UW housing, its more in my budget and it gets the job done. I have been trying to catch up on this thread recently since its been a while and noticed the Tokina 11-16 lens surfaced in the discussion but was curious if anyone had any experience underwater with it?

I recently upgraded my nikon mount to the DX version cause I was planning on taking the 11-16 Tokina down below. Although I do own a set of zeiss ZF primes 25, 35, 50, 85, I am still leaning towards the zooms like the 17-35 nikon and 11-16 tokina for UW usage. Am I in the right ballpark in terms of Nikons Under water, is there another affordable must have NIKON lens I am missing that anyone can suggest.

Of course zooms dont help if I dont have a way to operate them underwater...Ideally I would like to use inclino servos from viewfactor with remote controls over my lens...complicates things a little more as I would need build some housing for the follow focus unit.

[Pawel Achtel]

What port do you intend to use for this zoom and how do you compensate for changing enrance pupil position while zooming?

[C.H.Haskell]

I have not figured out what port I am using.

[Jon Shaw]

http://www.vimeo.com/2072541

Here's Shawn Heinricks interview with John Ellerbrock (GATES) @ DEMA. Has a section on the end with some of the RED Housing. Also looks like they have built a housing for the LCD.

Apologies that the link is related to another forum but thought it would be of interest.

[David Nardini]

What port do you intend to use for this zoom and how do you compensate for changing enrance pupil position while zooming?

He he ... motorised dome - moves in & out :tongue:

Here is a link to pictures : http://wetpixel.com/i.php/full/dema-2008-gates/

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Guys,
Taking a break here to get wed. Big day is on Thursday here in Japan. Should be back to blowing bubbles in a few days, or maybe not !!!! Nudge nudge wink wink as they say.......

Cheers,
Mark.

[Nick Ambrose]

http://www.vimeo.com/2072541

Here's Shawn Heinricks interview with John Ellerbrock (GATES) @ DEMA. Has a section on the end with some of the RED Housing. Also looks like they have built a housing for the LCD.



yes, I believe there was a housing for the LCD on display, attached to the housing.

The actual housing displayed I dont think was (quite) production yet but, just from looking at it, it seems it will handle similiarly to the other large-sized Gates housings (it's a pretty large housing)

I didn't really delve into ports, or other operational stuff as I am more focused on Scarlet (or whatever Scarlet becomes) as this stuff is just too far out of my range.

EDIT: I think the Aquavideo housing will also allow for the LCD as one of the guys over there was discussing that with someone else, and pointed out a specific port on the housing to handle the LCD. The Aquavideo housing looked pretty solid too, but the owner of the RED was sick the day I stopped by so I didn't get to talk to them so much

[C.H.Haskell]

Gates housing is way out of my ballpark but I am sure its the bees knees. I personally like the simplicity of the tube style lower budget housings but I would like the monitor mounted on top, maybe take a Gates RED LCD UW housing like this

http://wetpixel.com/images/includes/dema2008/gates/echeng081022_0172893.html

and mount it to the top of a AquaVideo housing? This UW stuff gets pretty expensive pretty fast, may just end up building my own. :D

[Pawel Achtel]

... This UW stuff gets pretty expensive pretty fast, may just end up building my own. :D

hehehe, this is what I have done. It cost me over $150k so far http://achtel.com/smiles/nutter.gif

[Amund Lie]

Haskell,

My experience with the Aquavideo so far is this:

An important benefit of the Aquavideo is to be able to chose different ports. The Aquatica ports Michael has been fitting on the housing are good in the fact that they are easily replaced and you can find spare ports secondhand almost anywhere in the world. The acrylic dome is of a very basic quality optically, and I find it hard to keep it clean from lint and dust due to static, plus the fact that you cannot clean them too vigorously before you start to get visible scratches. The lack of coating is also a problem. Mike is now replacing them with a specially made glass port with coating, so I am looking forward to those.

For other lenses, like zooms, using the flat Aquatica port works well. They are made from uncoated glass and work fine unless pointed directly into the sun. The benefit of these ports is that they are sturdy, the glass is recessed and hence the port can take quite a beating when working in rough seas. I am very cautious about using the acrylic port in swells or when I have to enter or exit a boat. One knock and your housing can flood instantly!

I have been having a hard time choosing what lens to use. I started off with a 12mm Arri T2.1 in the dome, but since the dome didn't really do it justice I have also tried various other options.
On drama productions, I find that the client sometimes wants to use their own PL mount lenses. For this I have successfully used the flat port with extension rings, typically 18 and 25mm Master Primes. However, the rudimentary controls makes it a bit awkward to do quick focus and aperture changes, so for those longer focal lengths I had to rely on people on the surface checking the image for sharpness via HD-SDI cable.

Using the standard controls on the Aquavideo is not ideal with manual Nikon lenses. I have tried focus rings from Red Rock Micro, but they are tricky to use with the twist and turn knob, especially since the aperture ring is so close to the RED mount. The focus ring is also easily dislodged.

What I'd really like to see is a good, working gear system that would enable the use of both manual SLR lenses and PL-mount. I am as excited as everyone about the Birger, but I always come back to the fact that clients (DPs) want to use PL-mount lenses, plus the fact that no-one has a working underwater solution for the Birger yet.

The tubular shape of the Aquavideo has its benefits, namely a low profile which makes for easier access into smaller spaces. On the downside is that the control knobs are placed in the front part of the housing which forces you to change your grip to adjust aperture and focus. Having the monitor at the back makes it tricky to shoot with the camera on the bottom, unless you have enough space behind to hug the sea floor also!

All in all, the Aquavideo is worth it's price. It is a simple and sturdy design that lacks somewhat in specialised control knobs etc, but I also find it easy to modify and fix myself. I have drilled a couple of holes and added Aquatica knobs from an old SLR housing, and added bits and pieces. I am now waiting for the new glass dome from Mike, and still contemplating whether I should stick with the Arri 12mm or try the yet uncomplete Birger solution.

And, oh yes, one last thing: The various Nikon, Canon or Sigma wide angle zooms are great, but they are not very fast. I would say that for underwater use aperture f2.8 is an absolute minimum, which rules out almost all of them.

Amund

[C.H.Haskell]

Amund! I appreciate your thorough feedback. I do own a Zeiss ZF 25mm 2.8, so this could be an option given the glass is very sharp, its brand new and has a great coating. From what I am hearing in regards to the dome, I should definitely stick with glass...but will glass dome shatter as easy with a bump or a knock? I am sure hard enough it will break just curious in comparison how fragile they are. You scared me with the visual of instant flood! >.<

Anywho, still debating if I should build one or just go for aquavideo..nice to know that I can mod the housing if I need to add some controls. I really prefer to be set on top of housing so I am looking into how I would manage this as well.

cheers.

Haskell

[Michael Hastings]

Amund! I appreciate your thorough feedback. I do own a Zeiss ZF 25mm 2.8, so this could be an option given the glass is very sharp, its brand new and has a great coating. From what I am hearing in regards to the dome, I should definitely stick with glass...but will glass dome shatter as easy with a bump or a knock? I am sure hard enough it will break just curious in comparison how fragile they are. You scared me with the visual of instant flood!

Haskell

I'm working on a thorough discussion of some of the issues raised in Amunds post, however wanted to give quick answer to the question of fragility.

In twenty five years of manufacturing housings for something like 400 different cameras and many thousands of acrylic dome ports, I am not aware of anyone ever actually breaking the dome from banging something underwater. We have had a couple that have cracked under pressure due to (we believe) a hard knock during shipping probably after a long extreme exposure cold on international cargo flights - fortunately only one caused camera damage.

Acrylic has a certain amount of give when struck. Although I am not aware of a substantial problem, I would actually be more concerned about catastrophic failure with glass as it is a) more brittle and b) we have much less experience since it is only in the last few years that there have been many glass domes produced (not just by us but by anyone).

Anytime you use the larger 8" domes - regardless of glass or acrylic - you have to be more careful because 1) there is more area which creates more likelihood of strike and more mechanical leverage/shock when it is struck and 2) it is much harder to make adequate protectors.



Anywho, still debating if I should build one or just go for aquavideo..nice to know that I can mod the housing if I need to add some controls. I really prefer to be set on top of housing so I am looking into how I would manage this as well.
Haskell

Haskell, our housing allows handles on either the top or bottom of the handle "wings" and there are two mini "cheese" plates on the top as well as a "cheese plate" type channel on the bottom so it is very flexible in terms of grip mounting, light mounts, external viewfinder mounts, the birger controls, and the eight flats make it pretty easy to add additional controls.

Our base housing ($8599) offers all the necessities - 6" standard dome port, flexible interchangeable port system (macro port and 8" dome, and extension rings to accommodate longer lenses), the necessary controls power, trigger, white balance/user, 2 simple friction iris and focus controls for the most common manual focus lenses (RED 18-50, Arri 8R, Arri 12mm T2.1, Canon 10-22 and many others), slide-in mounting plate for camera, battery, REDDRIVE, and RED LCD at the back so it sits just inside the clear backplate.

Besides the standard options like an external LCD case, the external birger controls and the glass dome frontplate, it is also extremely flexible in terms of add-ons and modifications. The standard frontplate has an additional o-ring seal groove and equidistant tapped holes to allow us or the user to easily implement custom fronts for special ports. If necessary it would be fairly easy to add an extension frontplate for a special lens, and there are actually some very exciting things coming that I am not yet allowed to talk about.

The housing is about as compact as it can be, the cross section (so the frontal area and therefore the drag pushing it through the water) is only 9" diameter or 63 square inches and for example I believe the Gates housing cross section would be about double or more the square inches. All in all the RED in its stripped down configuration is probably the best motion picture camera ever made for configuring in an underwater housing. Putting the battery and drive on top of the camera greatl increases its bulk giving it the same kind of drag we experienced with Varicam, HDcam and 35mm U/W systems. We chose to keep it in its most compact form - much smaller than any previous highend camera.

Note:

The housing on the left has the gears for Ken Corbens arri 8R. The housing on the right has a single control for the arri 12mm t2.1 which controls both iris and focus. The stock housings have two controls which provide iris, focus, and zoom control on the RED 18-50 as well as iris and focus on several other lenses.

As far as the 25mm it really isn't very wide on the RED - you would normally want to get down into the 10 or 12 mm range to get the kind of angle of view we have been accustomed to with video systems in the past 10 years or so.

[Amund Lie]

I must add that I have never cracked any port yet! It just feels less solid with a plastic dome and it therefore makes me much more cautious when handling the housing with the dome on. One idea could be to add a flip-down dome protector to be used when entering or exiting the water. And even if you don't actually break the glass or acrylic dome, a big scratch would render it useless anyway.
And as Mike points out, the lowered drag of the housing itself is an important issue. I find the Aquavideo very fast and easy to handle in the water.

Mike, can you reiterate about the gears you made for Ken Corben?

[dmartos]

...and the eight flats make it pretty easy to add additional controls. Our base housing ($8599) offers all the necessities...

Dear Mike, the simple and flexible design seem to be the right way to go. However, an excellent after sales support is to me as important as the product's technical specifications. Since you didn't mention anything about it in the description, I would like to ask:
1. Are Aquavideo's Red housings covered by a limited warranty? If yes, what are the conditions?
2. What is Aquavideo's refund policy in case a housing is delivered defective or a buyer is not satisfied with the product received?
Thanks, Daniel.

[Michael Hastings]

Our current warranty was developed by myself and Panasonic's lawyers almost 20 years ago when we began selling housings to Panasonic - made by AquaVideo but with Panasonic branding on it and sold through Panasonic dealers. It is pretty standard, and rather lengthy but here are the basics:

"AquaVideo Productions, Inc. (AquaVideo) will repair its manufactured products with new or rebuilt parts free of charge, in the U.S.A.for one(1) year from the date of original purchase (ninety (90) days for batteries and bulbs) in the event of a defect in materials or workmanship.

blah blah blah...

AquaVideo SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGE TO RECORDINGS AND/OR CAMCORDERS) RESULTING FROM THE USE OF THIS PRODUCT OR ARISING OUT OF ANY BREACH OF THIS WARRANTY. ALL EXPRESS AND IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE LIMITED TO THE APPLICABLE WARRANTY PERIOD SET FORTH ABOVE.

blah blah blah, more legal jargon..."

As far as refunds, due to the low volume and custom nature of most of the stuff we make, our policy has always been repair/replacement or exchange only, so cash refunds are not usually part of the deal. But we have been pretty liberal in terms of exchanges. We have also been pretty liberal as far as extending the time. It wouldn't be hard to go to a two year warranty or more - since really there isn't much that goes wrong over time that is actually a manufacturing defect - we buy top grade american acrylic, Mic6 and 6061 aluminum, precision ground stainless shafts, etc and anybody that has seen our housings knows the thickness of the acrylic and aluminum or PVC is usually overkill. If there is a warranty issue it is usually something we goofed on right at the start and it shows up right away, like a scratched port or stripped screw or something like that.

After the sale service can be hit or miss as we are very small, but many people have found that I answer the phone at pretty much all hours of the day, weekends, holidays, etc. and try to take care of any issues as quickly as possible.

[Mark Thorpe]

Going loop tha loop there for a while.........back to earth.

Hope all is good.

Haskell, ain't forgot ya. Been kinda busy the last few days........

Cheers,
Mark.

[Ken Corben]

Mike, can you reiterate about the gears you made for Ken Corben?

Gearing made by Element Technica. Doesn't get any sweeter.

Sharky

[Johnny Friday]

OH YEAH!!! I got something that will blow your mind and is SWEEEET!
toothpick control with bands---very expendible and spares are cheap.

[Mark Thorpe]

Johnny, c'mon......NDA's man? Sheesh.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S I just ripped out the clutch and gearbox of an old Ford Cortina. The housing is a bit front heavy but such is life.........:)

[Johnny Friday]

well then you would like my 1977 ford pinto houses my camera, me and the dog. It's rather tough transporting it around on my boat,but was only $475 at the local junk yard...welding extra of course.

[Mark Thorpe]

hehehe, Guys I now know some of that strange language you guys were throwing around the other day. Into my CCR training with a vengeance. Never was that good at math in school let alone at 43.

Sorting out bouyancy with my nose, as big as it is. What a hoot.......

So whats all the fuss about L Glass???

Be good now.
Cheers,
Mark.

[Ken Corben]

Yikes! Good thing underwater rebreather cinematography is 1% math and 99% o-ring.

C'mon Mark - you need to calculate your O2 consumption/duration based on (200bar x 6liters) - {3L/min x (Duration)} = O2 consumption in liters from which you can calculate the duration of your scrubber based on the liters of O2 consumed and CO2 absorbed for a given delta temp curve.

All the while - recalculating shutter speed to increase DOF which is all math.

In your case, play the odds and replace your o-rings frequently.

[Johnny Friday]

Mark,
or just do like i do....fill up your scrubber and dive till it turns purple - then change it and dive again; then stop diving when your body is in slight convulsions and you are going a bit blind in your left eye....seems to work in my case.

good luck mate

[Amund Lie]

Gearing made by Element Technica. Doesn't get any sweeter.

Sharky

Indeed!
How much did they charge you, and will they do them again? I need some gears too!

Amund

[Mark Thorpe]

Mark,
or just do like i do....fill up your scrubber and dive till it turns purple - then change it and dive again; then stop diving when your body is in slight convulsions and you are going a bit blind in your left eye....seems to work in my case.

good luck mateDunno what the crap Ken is going on about Johnny (must be toxicity) but I've been taught the exact same way you describe. Sheeeeyyit, we can clearly see who the pro's are around here.......:sarcasm:

Cheers, will be out of email and Skype range for 3 days. Chat when I get back guys........

Best,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Indeed!
How much did they charge you, and will they do them again? I need some gears too!

Amund

Amund, the numbers I quoted earlier are partly based on the price ET charged. approx. $4K for focus and iris plus install. As you know, it is fussy, time consuming work. There is a good reason why I continue to push Birger which eliminates the needs for gearing since it uses the internal motors which every EF lens has (or almost any modern SLR lens for that matter, once the other smart mounts become available) - so not only eliminates gearing but works the same with any of the lenses with no modification or adjustment to controls or the housing when you switch among even greatly different lenses.

[Amund Lie]

Yes, and it is a good point. I like the Birger solution too. Preferrably to have both. But I always get request for using PL lenses. Now, who knows what RED has in the works for Thursday, maybe some kind of universal quick mount? (besides the new camera roll-out of course).

[David Nardini]

Hope some of you still have your Nikonos 15mm/2.8 glass !

Check out the Scarlet / Epic FF35 chip size ... the days of dome optic compromises are over ;-)

What a day ... :biggrin:

[Ken Corben]

Hope some of you still have your Nikonos 15mm/2.8 glass !

David,

What are you up to? My Nikonos 15 was my first professional purchase, won my first photo contest, and still sits graciously on my desk.

I love this lens!

How the hell do you modify it to a RED camera/housing?

Peace

[David Nardini]

David,

What are you up to? My Nikonos 15 was my first professional purchase, won my first photo contest, and still sits graciously on my desk.

I love this lens!

How the hell do you modify it to a RED camera/housing?

Peace

Upon receiving my Birger mount (less of that) I took the opportunity of carefully holding the old workshorse (15mm) in the front of the R1. There is enough space to make it happen ;-)

What's held me back is the size of the R1 sensor ... Epic and Scarlet have a full 36x24mm sensor (according to specs) and this is THE fantastic news (for me).
Now the new Scarlet/Epic mounts are recessed in a tad so it's probably time to re-house the 15mm.

All I can say is that the future is VERY bright ... (oh and btw ... the 15mm is small enough for you mad u/w 3D folk !!!)

Cheers ...

[Michael Hastings]

David,

What are you up to? My Nikonos 15 was my first professional purchase, won my first photo contest, and still sits graciously on my desk.

I love this lens!

How the hell do you modify it to a RED camera/housing?

Peace

I actually looked at this as one possibility early on since I have a bunch of the AquaLens setups (the aqualens actually let you use normal nikon lenses on a nikonos with the same dome port we are using now.)

A couple things make it interesting but impractical 1) it would be a fair amount of work to modify a RED but could be done but 2) The 15mm Nikonos or UW Nikkor (94 degree angle) is really just a 60's era 20mm lens (94 degrees) with a small glass dome port and the focus system is reworked to compensate for the refocusing of the dome - not much different than just shimming the lens. It is called a 15 because at the time domes were just coming into use and Nikon wanted to indicate that it had the same angle of view as a 15mm through a flat port. Check the old Nikon catalog specs for a 20mm Nikkor.

For compact size and really high quality, it was pretty hard to beat a Nikonos with the 15mm, but now that there are a number of 16mm and 14mm lens options (which are much wider) for modern Full frame cameras it doesn't really make much sense to back track.

Just remember that it is really a 20mm which isn't very wide on RED and not that wide these days even on full frame. Many of the current superwides on on the RED, Scarlet, epic or whatever - behind a good dome port - would outperform the Nikonos 15. (Of course now you are back to the old film vs. digital debate - but I'm not going there.)

And BTW the 15mm isn't really small enough for the 3D work. If I am not mistaken, the goal is normally to be able to have an interocular distance of about 2.5 inches. You are more likely to get there with 2/3 inch scarlet or an S35 with a 4/3 mount.

Believe me, we have been thinking about all of these things for a long time and there is (as of yet) no magic answer.

[Michael Hastings]

BTW, I know a lot of people have been holding off on a REDONE housing in anticipation of the Scarlet or EPIC. Given the announced timeline of summer/fall 2009 and the specs/dates ability to change, it would seem that it may be another year (past another summer dive season) before you will see an EPIC/Scarlet underwater system.

I will have a couple of announcements in the next week or so that may interest the bubble blowers.

[Nick Ambrose]

BTW, I know a lot of people have been holding off on a REDONE housing in anticipation of the Scarlet or EPIC. Given the announced timeline of summer/fall 2009 and the specs/dates ability to change, it would seem that it may be another year (past another summer dive season) before you will see an EPIC/Scarlet underwater system.

I will have a couple of announcements in the next week or so that may interest the bubble blowers.

For me, it's gonna be the wait for scarlet since I dont get paid to make u/w movies :)

[David Nardini]

Hi Mike,

I accept that it is a 20mm (in air) spec lens which is re-bagged 15mm by Nikon. I cannot comment on what Nikon have done, but if it was 'just' a shim out and a good quality glass coated dome, I wonder why we cannot replicate this with in-air-designed lenses, especially when the Nik15 dome is so small ... and we need to use much larger curvature domes to approach it's performance ... I suspect there is a little more going on (as I said, I do not know, just a guess).

The Nik15 may (?) not be small enough for 3D, but it's the closest yet ... (I'm not talking of using the lens as is, but being re-packaged). Dome to dome centers is under 8cm (near enough 3") ... no idea what a Scarlet side to side would end up being.

It's certainly not wide enough for the R1, but for the forthcoming FF35, IMHO it is.

The one thing I have to disagree on is the following :

Many of the current superwides on the RED, Scarlet, Epic or whatever - behind a good dome port - would outperform the Nikonos 15
In my experience nothing has come close to the Nikonos 15mm ... for me it's been THE benchmark.
For example, are you suggesting that the AquaLens setup with a Nikkor 20/2.8 is as good as Nik15 ?

Now I have an incentive to try out my theory ... Nik15 on a FF DSLR ...

Cheers

[Frazier Nivens]

Hi Mike,

I accept that it is a 20mm (in air) spec lens which is re-bagged 15mm by Nikon. I cannot comment on what Nikon have done, but if it was 'just' a shim out and a good quality glass coated dome, I wonder why we cannot replicate this with in-air-designed lenses, especially when the Nik15 dome is so small ... and we need to use much larger curvature domes to approach it's performance ... I suspect there is a little more going on (as I said, I do not know, just a guess).

The Nik15 may (?) not be small enough for 3D, but it's the closest yet ... (I'm not talking of using the lens as is, but being re-packaged). Dome to dome centers is under 8cm (near enough 3") ... no idea what a Scarlet side to side would end up being.

It's certainly not wide enough for the R1, but for the forthcoming FF35, IMHO it is.

The one thing I have to disagree on is the following :

In my experience nothing has come close to the Nikonos 15mm ... for me it's been THE benchmark.
For example, are you suggesting that the AquaLens setup with a Nikkor 20/2.8 is as good as Nik15 ?

Now I have an incentive to try out my theory ... Nik15 on a FF DSLR ...

Cheers

I just saw your other post, may consider selling my lens. email me if you're interested and we can chat about it. Don't use PM use my email address below. Thanks! It's the newer style lens.

frazier@oceanimaging.com

Frazier
Ocean Imaging

[David Nardini]

Thanks for the thought ... have 2 already ... ;-)
Cheers

[Ken Corben]

Believe me, we have been thinking about all of these things for a long time and there is (as of yet) no magic answer.

This is a true story, huh Mike?

Hands down, the cine glass DOES outperform DSLR glass in RED 4K underwater. There is always an exception to a rule, however, there is a CLEAR difference in results from a cine prime to a DSLR prime or zoom. This is really no surprise. Now, that said...

Can you tell the difference on a HD SAT receiver on your home display? No.
Can you tell the difference on your home Bluray DVD and display? Yes.
Can you tell the difference on a 15perf 70mm frame? Yes.
Will the audience care? Only if it is an ASC screening :-)

Once again it's all about right tool for the job. No one lens will do it all.

[Pawel Achtel]

The one thing I have to disagree on is the following :

In my experience nothing has come close to the Nikonos 15mm ... for me it's been THE benchmark.
For example, are you suggesting that the AquaLens setup with a Nikkor 20/2.8 is as good as Nik15 ?

Now I have an incentive to try out my theory ... Nik15 on a FF DSLR ...

Cheers

You are correct that 15mm Nikonos will outperform just about any terrestial lens behind a dome underwater.

[Michael Hastings]

Hi Mike,

The one thing I have to disagree on is the following :

In my experience nothing has come close to the Nikonos 15mm ... for me it's been THE benchmark.
For example, are you suggesting that the AquaLens setup with a Nikkor 20/2.8 is as good as Nik15 ?

Now I have an incentive to try out my theory ... Nik15 on a FF DSLR ...

Cheers

Well, first of all let me say that I am not an expert on underwater still photography. The first time I had an enough income to afford a Nikonos is when I bought my first video camera and stumbled into being the first to manufacture and market self contained underwater video systems and consequently never looked back to really get fully immersed in underwater stills. With that said, among my first customers were Jim Church and Stan Waterman as well as Rick Frehsee's partner and so became good friends with Rick who helped me a lot with all of the science behind underwater optics.

I don't know enough to say whether Nikon put another correction element into the fifteen to do some further correction - but I've never heard that. And no I'm not suggesting that the same lens behind the acrylic dome of an Aqualens would be the same. But the Aqualens was developed and then sold by Nikon for a reason - namely to allow using WIDER lenses than the 20mm behind a dome ON THE NIKONOS. You still have the tradeoff of acrylic vs. glass and the fact that the focusing system of the UW15 was designed to provide direct compensation for the dome refocusing - either via mechanics or optics, which I don't know - but would be pretty significant compared to using off the shelf diopters as was probably done by most shooters using the Aqualens.


You are correct that 15mm Nikonos will outperform just about any terrestial lens behind a dome underwater.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but are there any objective/scientific tests demonstrating that? - if so I haven't come across it. And again, what are the conditions? As I mentioned in discussing using the 14mm masterprime on RED, while in situations where the 14 (basically the equivalent on RED to the nikkor uw15 on FF) is an appropriate focal length there is almost certainly NOTHING that would quite compare to it - but I do believe there are many situations, for example murkier water like California kelp beds or large shipwrecks, whales, etc. where a wider lens of slightly less optical quality would give a better overall picture. "Horses for courses..."

Basically all I was saying is that I wasn't sure that using the 15mm UW would be as good or sufficiently better to justify the hassles given the fact that it hasn't been made in 15 years or so, and it is only a 20mm when both Nikon and Canon make good 14s and there are many other wider lenses available AND as far as highend underwater video work in the last 8 years or so all of the major players are using a 4.5 or 4.7mm wide lens on their HDcams and Varicams which is substantially wider than the 94 degrees of the Nikonos 15mm setup on full frame.

But I did look into it seriously and it isn't very hard to do with the REDONE. (or future scarlet/epic) Rather than you rehousing the lens (which I don't know would gain you anything) I would simply remove the PL mount and then make the frontplate with the Nikonos mating surface machined into it (pretty easy to do) and then bolt it to the camera (in other words bolt the camera to the inside of the frontplate but using the bolts that you would normally use to bolt on the pl mount).

This would technically void your warranty unless approved by red (it would be easy to make a cavity for the i cable) but isn't actually any different than installing a birger mount, and is probably the most practical as any other method would have problems with the sealing surface and flange focal distances. Again, probably not impossible but probably not a lot to be gained.

The fact is - as far as I know - nobody has even done the simple side by side comparison tests (on a REDONE) of say the Canon 10-22, Tokina 11-16, Canon or Nikon 14mm vs say a 10mm or 14mm Arri Zeiss lens and glass domes vs. acrylic, etc. I'd have to borrow a 14mm but I have all of that other stuff AND housings, but the truth is with making and selling the housings, renting out my camera, etc. I haven't had the time. And while it would be interesting, I'm not sure what it would gain me to stop everything and run those tests. I have enough experience and knowledge to have a pretty good idea of what will happen and eventually I will get around to it, but in reality with the seventeen or so housings I've made for the RED, EVERYBODY seems to have there own idea of which lenses and ports to use regardless of any actual experience or facts. :biggrin:

[Rudi Herbert]

Mike,

I agree with you, the 15mm is nothing but an old lens, EXTREMELY well put together for underwater use. I started taking photos with one of them on an old Nikonos 3 when I was 15, and 25 years later, I still love those shots. And yes, that lens produced amazing images, some of which I've seen blown up on 50 ft high murals and still looked sharper than anything on a movie screen (said mural being printed on very coarse resolution industrial printers no less) but where I think the lens made its mark is in the fact that: a) it was rehoused with an excellent, top grade, properly coated, Nikon glass dome, b) its nodal points perfectly matching the lens underneath it. That simple. To find the same combination between a regular lens and a dome is almost impossible, though the sweet spot can be found every now and then and when you do those images do look sharper than the old 15 mm. But the modern lenses are indeed sharper, better ad wider than that old 60's dinosaur, is just finding an optically excellent, perfectly matching dome to put in front of them that does the newer lenses a disservice...

[David Nardini]

Mike,

I agree with you, the 15mm is nothing but an old lens, EXTREMELY well put together for underwater use. I started taking photos with one of them on an old Nikonos 3 when I was 15, and 25 years later, I still love those shots. And yes, that lens produced amazing images, some of which I've seen blown up on 50 ft high murals and still looked sharper than anything on a movie screen (said mural being printed on very coarse resolution industrial printers no less) but where I think the lens made its mark is in the fact that: a) it was rehoused with an excellent, top grade, properly coated, Nikon glass dome, b) its nodal points perfectly matching the lens underneath it. That simple. To find the same combination between a regular lens and a dome is almost impossible, though the sweet spot can be found every now and then and when you do those images do look sharper than the old 15 mm. But the modern lenses are indeed sharper, better ad wider than that old 60's dinosaur, is just finding an optically excellent, perfectly matching dome to put in front of them that does the newer lenses a disservice...

Indeed !!! ... and the approach I'd like to explore is to have the Nik 15 mounted (re-housed) and mounted on a 'bulkead' and that bulkhead is bolted to an Epic / Scarlet front. The bulkhead would ... a) keep all in perfect register and b) the bulkhead would be the 'port' of the housing.
The 'bulkhead' is essentially in place of a Birger, Red PL mount, etc ... if this makes sense ? Camera hanging off the back and lens off the front ...
I'm currently taking my 15Nik apart ... and doing some 'minimum' tolerance measurements; we have some time to explore options before the FF35 is available.

Mike ... as you have most of the gear ... would be great to get some side by side tests ? Maybe we should pencil in a few days in Florida and have a Red Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group :biggrin: good excuse for a few beers in the sun I say ...

Cheers ...

[Amund Lie]

Mike ... as you have most of the gear ... would be great to get some side by side tests ? Maybe we should pencil in a few days in Florida and have a Red Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group :biggrin: good excuse for a few beers in the sun I say ...

Cheers ...

I second that!
Mike has a nice place, convenient pool and not far at all to good dive spots. Also decent hotel just around the corner.

What you say Mike?

Amund

[Mark Thorpe]

... would be great to get some side by side tests ? Maybe we should pencil in a few days in Florida and have a Red Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group :biggrin: good excuse for a few beers in the sun I say ...

Cheers ...No, no, no.........are you not aware that this could be bad for you.........never ever drink and work. Jeez man, what are you thinking.....
hhehehe :ohmy: I'm in.

[Joe Shemesh]

Hey Mike, sent you a PM last week but have not heard back. Can you e-mail me asap so we can finalise purchase?

Also, what are the specs for your 2 types of RED housings - weight/dimensions etc?

best
joe

[Mark Thorpe]

Not being the engineered minded bloke here I don't know what it's gonna take but beg, steal or borrow someone's skills I am definitely going to be looking into housing this damned Canon MP-E65mm lens. It's just too ludicrous to ignore. It will need a ring light or equivalent to be anchored around the front element of the flat port as the focal distances vary from 2.5 inches at 1:1 to 17mm at 1:5 (Pygmy Sea Horse Birthing......imagine). It will also need an EOS Smart Mount so either of the current offerings, whichever produces first.

For an idea of the capability at 1:2 check out the recent post in the *Official* Post your DSLR Images thread, http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5323&page=22

The little guy was only about 4mm in length. Imagine this underwater.

I will make it my main focus over the coming months to get this housed.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Hey Mike, sent you a PM last week but have not heard back. Can you e-mail me asap so we can finalise purchase?
best, joe

Lots of stuff going on here on the bubble blowers thread - I have been a little out of touch the last few days but I have an excuse. Since Erik at Birger and then Mark started doing the marriage thing I figured I might as well take the plunge (again) so my girlfriend ---- and I got married on Thursday - simple civil ceremony and a delayed honeymoon, but have been kind of doing the family thing for a few days. We are both very happy.

Anyway, back to work today - I'm prepping a rental for cam and housing tomorrow but Joe I will get your proforma done either today or tonight. I have a unit here that is done except for any custom things you need and a couple more in process so shouldn't delay things.


Indeed !!! ... and the approach I'd like to explore is to have the Nik 15 mounted (re-housed) and mounted on a 'bulkead' and that bulkhead is bolted to an Epic / Scarlet front. The bulkhead would ... a) keep all in perfect register and b) the bulkhead would be the 'port' of the housing.
The 'bulkhead' is essentially in place of a Birger, Red PL mount, etc ... if this makes sense ? Camera hanging off the back and lens off the front ...
I'm currently taking my 15Nik apart ... and doing some 'minimum' tolerance measurements; we have some time to explore options before the FF35 is available.

Mike ... as you have most of the gear ... would be great to get some side by side tests ? Maybe we should pencil in a few days in Florida and have a Red Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group :biggrin: good excuse for a few beers in the sun I say ...Cheers ...

David, as far as the Nik 15, what you are talking about is pretty much what I had in mind, and as Rudi said I also think the big advantage of the Nik 15 is that the elements are all perfectly aligned.


I second that!
Mike has a nice place, convenient pool and not far at all to good dive spots. Also decent hotel just around the corner.

What you say Mike?

Amund

As far as the bubble blowers get together I'm all for it. Ken Corben and I discussed this earlier this year but we didn't have as much stuff together (or time), so the time is probably better now. I live in a suburb of Ft. Lauderdale about 15 miles from the Ft. Lauderdale airport and 25 miles from Miami International so access is very easy. I can probably arrange for the use of my pool or we may be able to set something up at one of the hotels right here.

It would be great to do this - as Ken and Amund know I have a lot (way to much) of a variety of ports, AquaLenses, Aquatica housings and other stuff and depending on timing I should have housings plus maybe Ken, Amund and others would bring their rigs too.

I could also easily setup some good dives in the Keys (weather permitting) or if enough interest I could set something up with Stuart Cove over in the Bahamas to do the shark dives and such. Stuart's place is probably the leading underwater film set in the world - so they are very familiar with dealing with the hardcore underwater movie wackos. Maybe this should happen January/February to give people some time to make plans. Post your preferences.


No, no, no.........are you not aware that this could be bad for you.........never ever drink and work. Jeez man, what are you thinking.....
hhehehe :ohmy: I'm in.

Hey, Mark - my new wife (and stepson) are Firefighter/EMT's - ----'s actually an inspector/assistant fire marshal now, but also does Emergency Medical Training - so I've got the rescue part covered. They both like to drink beer more than I do though, so we may have to assign someone to watch the rescue crew.:biggrin:

BTW, I think we could pretty easily setup for the MP-E65. I will post some photos in the next day or two of the frontplate which besides having the threading for the Aquatica ports, has another seal groove and is setup for other plates that I think would work perfectly for what you describe.

[Frazier Nivens]

Congratulations on your marriage, was wondering where you were, I'm in for the Keys or Stuarts, or BOTH. There's a great little hotel close to Stuarts, Orange Hill Beach Inn that's reasonable. If here in the Keys I can set some dives up with Capt. Slates Atlantis Dive Center and find some rooms for everyone. We could probably get our own boat, do the 510 ft. Spiegel Grove, Rebreathers, whatever the Bubble Blowers wants to do. I could probably arrange for us to go to the Aquarius UW Habitat for a dive.

Coming to see you this week if you're available. Will call you,
Frazier

[Mark Thorpe]

Frazier,
Good to hear from you, been a while eh? Not sure if I could get over for a few days jollies with the 'Blowers' as there are things going on here. If I could I would.

Mike and Lori - CONGRATULATIONS - well done mate. Hope you are as happy and united as much as Terri and I. Its a great feeling......

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Frazier:

Thanks brother, and as far as the keys you and Slate were who I was going to call to set something up so glad you are on board. I'm here all week, so come on up.

Mark:

Thanks to you and your wife. Hard to have a bubble blowers convention without the original bubble blower so see if there are dates that might work, if not we'll have to buy a blowup doll or something and set it in the corner with a beer mug in its hand.

[Mark Thorpe]

Frazier: Hard to have a bubble blowers convention without the original bubble blower so see if there are dates that might work, if not we'll have to buy a blowup doll or something and set it in the corner with a beer mug in its hand.Yeah, and uhhh, make sure thats a cigar in it's mouth.......and nothing else!!! :)

Cheers, send dates when concrete so I can check.

Best,
Mark.

[Matt Ferraro]

Hello all bubble blowers. I have been catching up and reading all the posts from the beginning. Though I do not have a Red I am very curious about the camera and its various applications. From the posts I have read I can tell there is a wealth of knowledge an information contained in this community. My wife and I work for a non-profit in California concerned with marine issues, I as the DP and her as the still photographer. We are both life-long students of photography/film and would love to join you in Florida to participate and learn. Would that be possible?
Matt

[Pawel Achtel]

Hello all bubble blowers. I have been catching up and reading all the posts from the beginning.

Hmmm...This brings a suggestion to mind. Can we ask administrators that underwater filming needs a separate forum, rather than a single thread?

[Michael Hastings]

We are both life-long students of photography/film and would love to join you in Florida to participate and learn. Would that be possible?
Matt

Assuming we can put something together I'm sure we would all welcome you.

[Rudi Herbert]

The whole idea of a housing based on the Nikonos 15mm sounds definitely interesting, at least worth a try. I'm imagining right now a small housing for the FF35 Scarlet and the 15mm out front, who knows, that could turn out to be one excellent solution which, if it even yields 80-90% of the image quality an Arri 8mm and a dome produce, then sign me up, so CamDiver better start buying all 15mm lenses out there :-)

As for a Bubble Blowers meeting, I would love that, and being in Miami, I can do Ft. Lauderdale or the Keys, though I don't think I'd have time for the Bahamas. I can bring my Nikonos RS lenses too, those might also be a nice option, although there are so few of those out there that it might be not worth the effort...But if there's a sort of "universal" coupling for the Nikon mount on the housing, then we could all use whatever lenses we have, including the Sea & Sea 12mm which also makes very nice images, humm, this is sounding more and more like something worth diving into.

[Michael Hastings]

The whole idea of a housing based on the Nikonos 15mm sounds definitely interesting, at least worth a try. I'm imagining right now a small housing for the FF35 Scarlet and the 15mm out front, who knows, that could turn out to be one excellent solution which, if it even yields 80-90% of the image quality an Arri 8mm and a dome produce, then sign me up, so CamDiver better start buying all 15mm lenses out there :-)

As for a Bubble Blowers meeting, I would love that, and being in Miami, I can do Ft. Lauderdale or the Keys, though I don't think I'd have time for the Bahamas. I can bring my Nikonos RS lenses too, those might also be a nice option, although there are so few of those out there that it might be not worth the effort...But if there's a sort of "universal" coupling for the Nikon mount on the housing, then we could all use whatever lenses we have, including the Sea & Sea 12mm which also makes very nice images, humm, this is sounding more and more like something worth diving into.

Rudi:

We might want to get together if you really want to pursue it. Does anyone know where I can get a drawing of the nikon mount with dimensions, flange focal distance, etc.?

Because of the way the 15 works I believe this would probably require dedicating a scarlet (front mount removed) to be bolted to the front plate so not necessarily an easy changeover from regular to underwater - not impossible just might take a half hour each time.

One cool thing is I have a bunch of the AquaLens setups from when I bought out Helix so you could easily put regular surface lenses on it as well by using the AquaLens which goes into the Nikonos mount and then has a regular Nikon mount on it and a screw thread for using the dome ports, macro ports, etc. It has built in gears for focus and iris.

Does anyone have any surplus Nikonos bodies lenses we could use for experimenting. It can be a flooded one, just so the mount area is good. Same with the lenses.

[Rudi Herbert]

Aqua,

Darn it, all my underwater photo gear is in europe at the moment (except my Nikonos RS body and lenses but I have those up for sale so I don't want to promise them), but I should travel there around Christmas, so I could bring a few bodies and lenses back. Getting dimensions for the 15mm lens should not be difficult, I think Stephen Frink or one of the other guys in the Keys has blueprints on the majority of the Nikon glass. However, having to have a Scarlet to figure out the front of the housing should prove, of course, considerably more difficult. I will call around in the meantime and see if I can find a body and a couple of lenses and let you know.

[Matt Ferraro]

I have a Nikonos V body and a 20mm lens to contribute to the cause, but I am out of town until mid December. Let me know if this will help I would be happy to send it off when I get home.

[Mark Thorpe]

.....so CamDiver better start buying all 15mm lenses out there :-) .........I've already got mine, and in pristine condition.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

BTW, I think we could pretty easily setup for the MP-E65. I will post some photos in the next day or two of the frontplate which besides having the threading for the Aquatica ports, has another seal groove and is setup for other plates that I think would work perfectly for what you describe.Keep me posted on your findings Mike. Would love to think of a way to effectively house this lens.......

Cheers,
Mark.

[Ken Corben]

Mike,

I'll send you one of my first generation Nikonos 15mm Lenses for "experimenting." Fun idea...

K

[Michael Hastings]

Keep me posted on your findings Mike. Would love to think of a way to effectively house this lens....... Cheers, Mark.

Mark: Getting the MP-E 65 housed should be relatively easy with the current design, maybe just a slight shift in where we mount the camera - just would need to get my hands on the lens for a day or so to do some measurements and see what we would need to gear it up. Are you anywhere where you could get the lens to me?

The other part would be the ring light and I would want to investigate building the lcds into a frontplate/port. That might take a little longer as I haven't played much with the LCDs yet.

[Michael Hastings]

Mike,
I'll send you one of my first generation Nikonos 15mm Lenses for "experimenting." Fun idea...
K

Cool, I should also contact Mike Mesgleski that does Nikonos Repair he might have some broken nikonos's around and he is a good resource for repair or tuneup of your lenses. Haven't talked to him in a long time, but I think he would remember me.

10044 SW 221 Street Miami, FL 33190 305-234-0903
http://www.underwatercamerarepair.com/

[C.H.Haskell]

I will be in Harbour island bahamas next week if anyone is down there....let me know. Cheers.

[Frazier Nivens]

Hi All,

I have a Nik 15mm lens that I can take up to Mike when he's got the time to work with it. With work may not get to come up till 2nd week of Dec. I'll leave it with you if need be.

I also would be interested in the Canon MP-E65 Macro lens setup. Fully extended at 5X it's quite the long lens. I'm sure Mike can figure out a way to house it, but then we'd need a tripod for sure at this extreme. Any movement would be challenging I believe. But it would make for some outstanding imaging.

[Michael Hastings]

Hi All,

I have a Nik 15mm lens that I can take up to Mike when he's got the time to work with it. With work may not get to come up till 2nd week of Dec. I'll leave it with you if need be.

I also would be interested in the Canon MP-E65 Macro lens setup. Fully extended at 5X it's quite the long lens. I'm sure Mike can figure out a way to house it, but then we'd need a tripod for sure at this extreme. Any movement would be challenging I believe. But it would make for some outstanding imaging.

The MP-E 65 might not be as practical as I thought. I had forgotten that it extends (I have the 100mm Macro but it stays the same length) so given that the subjects would be extremely close we would have to have some sort of extensible port (not impossible - it could be like a telescoping tube set with piston type o-rings - but either quite expensive or someone would have to do it as a hobby-type venture. Our standard frontplate is pretty easy to adapt things too since it has multiple port sealing options and I have predrilled and tap holes around the second seal to make it easy to attach whatever you want.) or you would just have to choose a particular extension and an appropriate regular port. In other words if what you are really after is the max magnification since you can't get that with other lenses it wouldn't be hard, but if you want to adjust magnification underwater it might require the telescoping port as well.

I would have to play with the lens to see how close you need to be for a given magnification, but I suspect I am going to stick with the simpler macro setups to start.

[Frazier Nivens]

The MP-E 65 lens at 5X is quite long and extends way out. Great lens but it would be a tough one to house and work with UW.

But I would like to use my Sigma 50mm Macro and Sigma 150mm Macro. Those shouldn't be any problem at all.

Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

[Michael Hastings]

The MP-E 65 lens at 5X is quite long and extends way out. Great lens but it would be a tough one to house and work with UW.

But I would like to use my Sigma 50mm Macro and Sigma 150mm Macro. Those shouldn't be any problem at all.

Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

Basically all of the regular macros are easy to accommodate with the current setup.

[Michael Hastings]

Amund requested pictures of the glass dome and I realized I never posted when I said I would earlier.

These are 8" very high quality Japanese glass domes AR coated on the inside.
You simply put this front plate on rather than the regular frontplate. We did this since it was easier and about the same cost to make an entire frontplate rather than a port that would screw into the other plate and it is much thicker at the point of contact so stiffer - no flex - as any kind of flex is bad for a glass dome.

The first picture is of the inside of the frontplate with a regular backplate on top which shows how the edge of the frontplate goes past the OD of the housing. Also if you look you can see tapped holes that would be used to put a spacer in between if necessary to extend it out farther for a particular lens.

[Mark Thorpe]

No one said a housing solution for the MPE-65mm would be easy. I will be looking to take this on as a personal project as I seriously wish to have this lens in my UW shooting arsenal, that would be just ten colours of awesome!!!

Cheers all,
Mark.

[Frazier Nivens]

We can put that on our wish list Mark, I'd love to try that extreme macro lens out UW also. Love the little things as much as the big things. Do you have anything semi close to that now? PM me or email me, you know the address when you've time.

Best,
Frazier

[Pawel Achtel]

As Jim says: "Don't know what this is..." :biggrin:

BTW, how do you guys intend to pull focus on the MP-E 65? just curious.

[Mark Thorpe]

BTW, how do you guys intend to pull focus on the MP-E 65? just curious.Pawel,
The MP-E65mm works on a fixed focal range per each imaging ratio between 1:1 and 5:1. Underwater one would have to have an EOS smart mount (one is coming its just a matter of time) to control Iris. Focusing will have to be done via the use of an enlarged version of a macro slider that would have to be designed and fitted to housing and controlled via gearing etc.

I am really convinced there could be a limited use for this lens underwater. Not something for everyday use but still it would allow a view into a world as yet possibly completely overlooked......

Cheers,
Mark.

[Pawel Achtel]

Mark,

In my view, for focus knob to be practical, you need it at the rear section of the housing. I can't imagine having a knob at the front where the lens is.

The pictures above are renders of my new iris/focus controller with two GPIO triggers. The pulling is done with precision servo motors on a long throw focus gear ring (cine lenses).

And, you right, there are so many fascinating little critters that are not so much overlooked, but very difficult to film.

It is very challenging to shoot macro. My wide-angle shooting ratio underwater is close to 90%, whilst macro is maybe 10% or so. And, that's with rear focus control knob on an HDCAM camera.

[Mark Thorpe]

Pawel,
I am going to be using Aquatica coated flat ports on my housing which have one control cog for focus already. Can't see an issue with using that. The housing is not a long tube it is actually quite taller than long so the reach is not an issue whilst checking through EVF housing.

AFAIK, Gates, Aqua Video, Element Technica and others all have the Iris and Focusing gears toward the front section of their housings. Seems like whoever I would have gone with from these contenders then I would have had that same aesthetic.

My personal preference is macro filming. There is nothing I like more than the challenge of wondering which way the pygmy seahorse is going to twist and keep it in focus. The textures, complexities and diversity of the macro world are just so far more amazing to me than other marine critters. Not that I love them any less, but in my heart of hearts its macro through and through :biggrin:

Cheers,
Mark.

[Are Pilskog]

Hello!

I’ve been scrolling trough a lot of pages, and there are indeed a lot of good information in this thread.

I am working on an exiting underwater film project here in Noway, and in this regard it would be nice to have some help from the underwater bubblin blowin user group.

What do you guys think about putting a red on something like this:
http://www.seaeye.com/falcon.html
How are the possibilities to handle the red one remotely trough cables; guess I need cables for monitoring, for focus and aperture control. In this regard, will the Birger mount/aquavideo housing be a good solution. Are there any other solutions. And what are the maximum length such cables can work.

What about the new red cameras, Scarlet and Epic. Are there better solutions for these new cameras to work remotely. I guess the small Scarlet “fly-by-redwire” might be a good solution?

Apologize my poor English.

Best regards
Are

[Michael Hastings]

Pawel,

AFAIK, Gates, Aqua Video, Element Technica and others all have the Iris and Focusing gears toward the front section of their housings. Seems like whoever I would have gone with from these contenders then I would have had that same aesthetic.
Mark.

Of course the reason is that is where the lens is. With manual geared control you would need additional long shafts and gears to get to the back of the housings which complicates things and costs a lot more and makes it hard to work with multiple lenses, so you would probably opt for electric drive motors at that point which is more money, need room for the motor drives etc. All of this can be done but it costs a lot of time and therefore money to develop and usually people want to talk about it but nobody really steps up to the plate to get it done. AquaVideo's response to this was to at least make our frontplate so it is relatively easy for the end user to adapt a custom port setup to the housing by providing an additional o-ring (or x-ring) groove around the threaded port receptacle to make it easy to seal and predrilled and tapped holes to make it easy to attach. (I'll post some pics later.)

Hence, as a practical matter you get back to a smart mount solution for the Canon EF-S 60, EF100 and EF180 as the sweet spots. Further - specific to the MP-E 65 - what is the subject distance you have to get to achieve those high magnifications and can you realistically even get there underwater and finally (I know this is cheating a bit) but which of those subjects wouldn't you be better to do in an aquarium since at these distances and focal lengths the depth of field and field of view is so small you can't really tell the difference between in the wild and in a tank?

Are there some example shots of someone shooting this lens in a still setup? I would like to see them and know what there actual magnifications and distances were.

[Mark Thorpe]

Mike, 'tis late here but tomorrow I will post a shot of the still setup. I will also post an image of the focus chart comparisons for the respective ratio's.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Pawel Achtel]

Are,

You will find some challenges in making the housing crush-proof to 500m. Having said that, my housing is crash-proof down to 500m.

Controlls need to be electronic, through GPIO and you have to use servos for lens control. This is what I have been using for yonks. Not cheap, but certainly the best solution.


Of course the reason is that is where the lens is. With manual geared control you would need additional long shafts and gears to get to the back of the housings which complicates things and costs a lot more and makes it hard to work with multiple lenses, so you would probably opt for electric drive motors at that point which is more money, need room for the motor drives etc. All of this can be done but it costs a lot of time and therefore money to develop and usually people want to talk about it but nobody really steps up to the plate to get it done.

hehehehe ...Some do get it done, not just talk about it like others. :sarcasm: I use custom servo motors. I make the gearing and motor controllers myself. By far the most robust and most versatile solution.

[Michael Hastings]

hehehehe ...Some do get it done, not just talk about it like others. :sarcasm: I use custom servo motors. I make the gearing and motor controllers myself. By far the most robust and most versatile solution.

Well, of course a few people do these very expensive custom things but maybe 1 or 2 every few years actually pay someone else to do it. I actually passed on one of those earlier this year with making a system for a major 3D project because I felt it would mean abusing the half dozen purchasers I had already committed to by taking their orders and their deposits for RED housings. I kick myself a little bit because with all of the mount delays I probably could have fit it in - but at the time it was the right thing to do.

The other way is doing it yourself as you are doing, but you know what kind of time and effort it takes and how much you would charge. Again, I've tried to leave those custom possibilities open on our base housing.


Are,

You will find some challenges in making the housing crush-proof to 500m. Having said that, my housing is crash-proof down to 500m.

Controlls need to be electronic, through GPIO and you have to use servos for lens control. This is what I have been using for yonks. Not cheap, but certainly the best solution.

Actually, I think I could modify our base housing with custom ports to accommodate 500 meters. Probably would work with the housing as is but worst case we would just leave off the 8 flats that we have machined on the housing to reduce the weight. My calculations (using the old-style formulas) show 1572 feet with a 3X safety factor with 1" aluminum endplates and the no flat cylinder with 3X to over 4000 feet so the flatted version would probably handle 1500 feet fine.

We already had two systems working with 200 foot umbilicals for remote control of focus, iris, and start/stop back in August. Longer cable lengths would probably be fairly easy with transceivers and fiber optic cables.

[Pawel Achtel]

Well, of course a few people do these very expensive custom things but maybe 1 or 2 every few years actually pay someone else to do it.

The vast majority of cost is in R&D. The manufacturing and materials are not much more expensive than for mechanical gears. If you have a need for servo lens controls, contact me off line. We may be able to work out something that is cost-effective.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Mike,
As promised here are the images of the MPE65mm Macro Lens. The first image shows the focal working distances for each selected ratio.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/CamDiver/MPE65mm.jpg

The second image is just to show the lens extended which when at 5:1 is just a tad short of 10 inches. I don't have and concise measuring instruments here so have to be ballpark.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/CamDiver/MPE65mm-Long.jpg

When you look at it though you could probably get away with using one port when shooting 2:1 or 1:1. The results I get at those ratios are some of the most pleasing. After that one tends to require a flat subject to get any decent sense of what the image is, not just the eyeball for example.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Are Pilskog]

Are,

You will find some challenges in making the housing crush-proof to 500m. Having said that, my housing is crash-proof down to 500m.


Well, actually I do not need to go down to 500 meter. I will probably not go deeper than 50-70 meter, about 200 feet. I would like to use the mini submarine to get undisturbed animal behaviour, like herring school behaviour, killer whales and seabirds diving.

What about monitoring, I guess the cables for LCD/viewfinder will have a maximum length far shorter than what I need?

Are

[Pawel Achtel]

Well, actually I do not need to go down to 500 meter. I will probably not go deeper than 50-70 meter, about 200 feet. I would like to use the mini submarine to get undisturbed animal behaviour, like herring school behaviour, killer whales and seabirds diving.

What about monitoring, I guess the cables for LCD/viewfinder will have a maximum length far shorter than what I need?

Are

Get a rebreather.

[Mark Thorpe]

Get a rebreather.I'll second that one. Deeper doesn't mean better with a rebreather though, the benefits are evident, even just below the surface, once you make the switch. Glad I done it and now getting in the hours. Flying manual semi-closed at the moment.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Are Pilskog]

I've thought about rebreather and that may be a good solution in some situations. But I really do think I will get better undisturbed pictures by not diving into the water. Killer Whales for instance will either keep distance to human divers or there might be some curious individuals that will check you out. In other words not representative for theier normal behaviour. I think the mini submarin may be one of the best alternative to capture undisturbed natural behaviour.

Are

[Michael Hastings]

Hey Mike,
As promised here are the images of the MPE65mm Macro Lens. The first image shows the focal working distances for each selected ratio.

When you look at it though you could probably get away with using one port when shooting 2:1 or 1:1. The results I get at those ratios are some of the most pleasing. After that one tends to require a flat subject to get any decent sense of what the image is, not just the eyeball for example.

Cheers,
Mark.

Mark: I can see that the MP-E 65 is the bomb for surface macro, but in looking at the distances at just seems like we would be normally better of to keep it simple by using the 100 macro, or as alternatives the 65 EF-s or EF180

Here are the lens to subject distances at closest focus.

100mm 5.5" at 1:1 fullframe 1.6x on red

60mm 3.27" at 1:1 1:1 also on red

180mm 10.1" at 1:1 fullframe 1.6x on red

The 100 and 180 are full frame lenses so we would get approx 1.6x on the RED at the same close focus distance since you are cropping out the center. I've posted a quick shot I took of a dime (shutter 125 @ 5.6 on the Canon 40D) at roughly the closest focusing distance. Don't judge the quality, I just ran out and stuck a dime on the porch step to show the size. The 16x9 is virtually exactly what you would get on RED, the the other is the full shot on the 40D (just a bit more top and bottom).

Seems to me this is probably pretty close to the practical limit for shooting something small in open water. Also, if you were using the 100 or 180mm you could get double the magnification to 3.2x by using a decent achromatic +2 diopter with very little degradation. The 100mm is only a 58mm thread so wouldn't be that expensive.

Because focus and iris can be controlled by birger, all you would do to change from one lens to the other is unscrew the dome port and put on the macro port.

It would also be pretty easy if I can figure the LED stuff to make a port with the ring light built into it and I think that might be a more beneficial use of the time rather than trying to make an adjustable port for the 65.

If you were okay with a limited range on the 65 it wouldn't be much more complicated - just a matter of gearing for the focus.

PS I'll post the photo later REDUSER seems to be cranky right now and won't take them even though within the limits. PPs got it by doing one at a time - 2 edits???

[Mark Thorpe]

Talking of LED Ringlights? Something like this........

http://www.compumodules.com/image-processing/advanced-illumination/LED-illumination-ring-lights.shtml

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Talking of LED Ringlights? Something like this........

http://www.compumodules.com/image-processing/advanced-illumination/LED-illumination-ring-lights.shtml

Cheers,
Mark.

Yes, but I was proposing to make a 6" aluminum plate that would screw into the regular port thread and say a 3 or 4" inch flat glass port in it with the LEDs actually embedded into the aluminum plate and powered with a battery in the housing.

[Mark Thorpe]

A cunning plan sire......

[Pawel Achtel]

I've thought about rebreather and that may be a good solution in some situations. But I really do think I will get better undisturbed pictures by not diving into the water. Killer Whales for instance will either keep distance to human divers or there might be some curious individuals that will check you out. In other words not representative for theier normal behaviour. I think the mini submarin may be one of the best alternative to capture undisturbed natural behaviour.

Are

The problem with an ROV is that it is costly and does not react quickly to point the camera where the action is. You should try rebreather first as it is easier and cheaper. With fish, rebreather does work wonders. You can get as close as you like to the shiest fish, no problem. You can rub noses with sharks that would normally go away from 30m away. With mamals, it greatly depends. Whales tend to avoid sounds and bubbles often make them go away where as rebreather would not bother them any more than an ROV. Seals do not care whether you are on scuba or rebreather and will do whatever they think of you.

[Mark Thorpe]

I've thought about rebreather and that may be a good solution in some situations. But I really do think I will get better undisturbed pictures by not diving into the water. Killer Whales for instance will either keep distance to human divers or there might be some curious individuals that will check you out. In other words not representative for theier normal behaviour. I think the mini submarin may be one of the best alternative to capture undisturbed natural behaviour.

AreSo is an ROV suspended by umbilical control and command cables, with its props and whining engines going to be less intrusive than a no noise emission diver on CCR systems?? I think Rebreather is the best way to go.

All the best with whatever you go with. Nice web site by the way.
Cheers,
Mark.

[Are Pilskog]

Thank you Pawel and Mark for the tips/advices. I have no experiences with rebreathers, but that might be a good and of course cheaper alternative. I wil look into it.

I will at this point, however, not abandon the ROV. I think the herring and the mammals I am going to film are used to mecanical motors etc from fishing boats, safaries etc. A human diver will be something different and new in the water, compared to a ROV. This is at least what I have imagined, but I might be wrong. I am of course interested in listening to experienced people, and I am therefore indeed considering the rebreather :)

I am also considering ROV for filming at about 50 meter. Here I need to shoot for many ours at this depth and a diver will not be able to go that deep for so long. The ROV will not cost me anything as I am doing this together with science institutions. My concern is, however, the cost and functionality of remotely using a RED atached to the ROV.

Do you guys have any experiences with seabirds and rebreather?

Are

[Pawel Achtel]

Do you guys have any experiences with seabirds and rebreather?

Penguins avoid just about anything underwater, but you are unlikely to find one on Northern hemisphere. :sarcasm:

Birds diving and feeding on bait balls could not care less.


I am also considering ROV for filming at about 50 meter. Here I need to shoot for many ours at this depth and a diver will not be able to go that deep for so long.

The beauty of a rebreather is that you can dive to 100m and stay underwater for 5-6 hours...if you want to. 50m is a perfect depth for a trimix rebreather dive. You will need good dry suit :cold:

[Matt Ferraro]

I have "inherited" 3 custom underwater S16mm cameras, with switchable flat ports, dome ports, and a set of Zeiss Super Speed Primes (9.5, 12, 16, 25). The dome ports are custom 3/8" white water glass 8" dome from Harrold Johnson (do any of you know him?) and one panspheron wide converter used to convert the 12mm to a 6.6mm. Are these domes worth incorporating into a red housing, like the Aquavideo?

[Michael Hastings]

I have "inherited" 3 custom underwater S16mm cameras, with switchable flat ports, dome ports, and a set of Zeiss Super Speed Primes (9.5, 12, 16, 25). The dome ports are custom 3/8" white water glass 8" dome from Harrold Johnson (do any of you know him?) and one panspheron wide converter used to convert the 12mm to a 6.6mm. Are these domes worth incorporating into a red housing, like the Aquavideo?

We'd have to take a look to see how easy it would be to incorporate (i.e. is it easier/cheaper to do than the standard way), but the way we do the frontplate is pretty flexible so probably could be done.

what do you mean "white water" glass.

Why don't you post some pictures to start.

[Matt Ferraro]

We'd have to take a look to see how easy it would be to incorporate (i.e. is it easier/cheaper to do than the standard way), but the way we do the frontplate is pretty flexible so probably could be done.

what do you mean "white water" glass.

Why don't you post some pictures to start.

Thanks for the reply. Currently I am out of town and I dont have any pics with me. I'll see if I cant get someone back home to take a few and email them to me today. What I know about the dome I put in my last post and I got from the spec sheet for the housing. The spec sheet also said the domes are seated on a 45 degree flange with clear silicon caulk.
I mistyped, it is "water white" glass. All I know is that it has the same name as the glass that is used in my 4x5 Tiffen polarizer. I found a site called waterwhiteglass.com and it says: "Water white, low iron, ultra clear glass transmits 98% to 99% of light, and is anti-glare and anti-reflective coated. This glass is becoming very important to the movie theater industry, as the industry turns to digital equipment. Used as a theater glass, our water white glass outperforms other ultra clear products."
Thanks,
Matt

PS- Here are the only pics I have of the housing now. Unfortunately they are not very helpful as far as the dome goes.

[Monteiro]

Hi All,

I have a Nik 15mm lens that I can take up to Mike when he's got the time to work with it. With work may not get to come up till 2nd week of Dec. I'll leave it with you if need be.

I also would be interested in the Canon MP-E65 Macro lens setup. Fully extended at 5X it's quite the long lens. I'm sure Mike can figure out a way to house it, but then we'd need a tripod for sure at this extreme. Any movement would be challenging I believe. But it would make for some outstanding imaging.

Hey Frazier saw your post. I just finished my first prototype housing for my Red and did some tests yesterday with the guys at Ocean Divers in Key Largo. I am using the Red 18-50mm lens which I find to be an extraordinary general purpose lens for underwater wide angle and macro shooting. With one lens you can go from a 75 degree wide angle shot at 18mm to filling the frame with an Neon Gobey at 50mm.

As you may know I haven't been building since the old Betacam days but with so few affordable options out there I decided to put my 25 years+ experience to the challenge. I came up with a 7.5" cylindrical aluminum design with only two mechanical controls in the rear of the housing. Each however has three different functions. The left control does Start/Stop, Roll/Pause and Power on/off. The right control is a sliding arm that does Focus, Iris and Zoom. There are NO penetrations through the aluminum tube. I am using old customized Oceanic Ports (since I couldn't find any 35mm still ports with a 4.5" diameter lens opening required for the Red lens. It still needs a little tweaking but if you want to see some wide angle still frames from my shoot yesterday you can find them at the links below. They were all shot at 4K 30FPS with a 360 Degree shutter, natural light and a UR Pro on the Red 18-50 lens at 18mm. I tweaked them a little in Red Cine.

Let's get together some time. I am working on an indie feature which hopefully will get me out of the editing room and back in the water for a while.

George

www.sea-cam.com/red/1.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/2.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/3.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/4.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/5.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/6.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/7.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/8.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/9.jpg
www.sea-cam.com/red/10.jpg

[Matt Ferraro]

Why don't you post some pictures to start.

Here are some pics of the dome port and the panspheron. Let me know if more detail is needed.
Thnx,
Matt

[Frazier Nivens]

Hi George,

Would love to get together with you and say hi again, it's been years. Went through all your photos,looks great, where were you diving? Moe? I was over at Stephen Frinks the other day and he told me you were in town with your camera. UR Pro Filter 72mm. You gotta keep my phone handy if you need something here and come by for a visit. Would love to work with you if you need multiple cameras.

The UW Bubble Blowers group hopefully with enough planning are going to get together either here in the Keys or over at Stuarts in Nassau. You're so close we've all got to get together for sure, trying to get as many to come as possible. Slates going to do a shark, barracuda, moray eel and goliath grouper Creature Feature for us during the meet. Probably be next year, winter is tough to call here, could be rough or could be flat calm, never know. It's absolutely beautiful here today, cool but FLAT CALM out on the water. How many RED cameras can we get UW at one time?? We gotta get some kind of date to see if we can all get together for a Bubble Blowers Dive get together. Suggestions anyone??

I came across a old Oceanic Hydro 35 Housing in PERFECT condition the other day, with Flat port/Extension ring/and Dome port/ all glass. I have it now and I'm wondering if Mike can adapt the ports to my housing. I have to take it up to him soon and see if they can be used.

Also came across a LARGE UW Lighting kit, 2 Light Housings, reminded me of the Birns and Sawyer heads I used once in the RED SEA with John Stoneman. I'm hoping that these I can adapt and build into a great set of generator surface powered lights. But it'll take some work. There was an old 16mm UW film housing there also with camera also but didn't have time to check it all out, will get it today out of storage, It's a antique for sure.

What are you doing Dec. 13th?? I've got a music concert, Supermodel fashion show in Miami then. Gotta get Mike to come for this also.

Email me at:

frazier@oceanimaging.com

with your email address to chat further.

Good to hear from you.

Everyone have a great Thanksgiving Day, for those that are eating Turkey.

Frazier, Ocean Imaging

[Frazier Nivens]

Talking of LED Ringlights? Something like this........

http://www.compumodules.com/image-processing/advanced-illumination/LED-illumination-ring-lights.shtml

Cheers,
Mark.

This friend of mine is currently building these LED lights into a housing and could probably help with a configuration for this application. He has already built LED lights for UW use and is currently building a set for video use that are reasonably priced. I'd ask him if he could build us a RingLIGHT for this Lens. But the LED Ringlights would be great for Macro.

Frazier

[Mark Thorpe]

This friend of mine is currently building these LED lights into a housing and could probably help with a configuration for this application. He has already built LED lights for UW use and is currently building a set for video use that are reasonably priced. I'd ask him if he could build us a RingLIGHT for this Lens. But the LED Ringlights would be great for Macro.

FrazierFrazier,
That would be great if you could ask your buddy regarding construction and fees etc. I will see if I can get the internal diameter measurement required for the curvature of the ringlight from the dimensions of the new Aquatica flat ports as these are the ones I will be using on my housing. Having done tests on land I will only look to work at 2:1 with this underwater. One port will then serve for both 2:1 and life size, sweet deal.

Moving on. Will be in Lembeh on Saturday for a couple of days to sort some items out. No time for diving but am certainly chomping at the bit to test this lens out sometime down the road.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Jieva@jievamulokas.com]

quick question... after reading this ... I have to export about an hours worth of footage that is red 4k and export it on a dvd... what is the easiest way to do that??? i use final cut and have little knowledge of this red technology... It's already all on an external hd I just need to bring in all the files into final cut, but wondering what the best settings are and how to minimize the file size so that it could all fit in a dvd...
anyone have time to help a newbie out?!

[Michael Hastings]

This friend of mine is currently building these LED lights into a housing and could probably help with a configuration for this application. He has already built LED lights for UW use and is currently building a set for video use that are reasonably priced. I'd ask him if he could build us a RingLIGHT for this Lens. But the LED Ringlights would be great for Macro.

Frazier

Frazier, how many watts are the individual LEDs and how many lumens for the individual LEDs? I was going to talk to one of my taiwanese suppliers but if your friend has something worked out here it might be just as well. I think we would want the 3 or 5 watt LEDs in say a 16 or 24 LED ring around an approximate 7" circle.

[Monteiro]

Hi George,


Also came across a LARGE UW Lighting kit, 2 Light Housings, reminded me of the Birns and Sawyer heads I used once in the RED SEA with John Stoneman. I'm hoping that these I can adapt and build into a great set of generator surface powered lights. But it'll take some work. There was an old 16mm UW film housing there also with camera also but didn't have time to check it all out, will get it today out of storage, It's a antique for sure.




Interesting about the LED lights. I have about 4 Par 36 Housings for 650 Watt Surface supplied lights which I think I used the last time we worked together. But I thinbk LED's are the way to go Low power consumption high output and daylight balanced. There are a lot of Chinese suppliers of these for pools and fountains etc. but you have to buy them in quantity and no way to test them in advance. There is a company in Fort Lauderdale that builds them for yachts which I am going to check out. I'll let you know what I find out.

[dmartos]

Hi Guys,

We have an Aquavideo Housing for sale. Used 2 days on a feature in October and will be used again one day for a commercial on Wednesday.

After this, it's all yours to have for only $7.000,00 including a bunch of cool extras and accessories.

Although it may allow simple iris and focus operation for a variety of optics, it was designed to work with our custom Zeiss Contax lenses and the popular Red Zoom. It will be shipped back to factory for some upgrades and at the same time you will be able to arrange further control shafts for other desired lenses.

After being upgraded, Mike in Aquavideo has generously agreed to give a full one-year warranty to the new owner.

This is a unique opportunity to save some bucks and own a "three-day-old" housing, with plenty of extras and a full warranty.

We found Aquavideo's housing to have a very simple and clever design, with low water resistance yet very stable, fully customizable and offering excellent optical results. Although I was not allowed to publish any of the work we have done so far, I will try to get some samples of the dome's performance.

Images of the actual housing can be found below. I'll try to get some better ones on Wednesday!

If you are interested, feel free to email: daniel :biggrin: cinedigitalcanarias.com

[Johnny Friday]

a day with marlin.....

[Mark Thorpe]

Lucky Bugger.......

[David Nardini]

Peter Scoones has announced that his Nekton broadcast video housings will shortly be available with RED capability. They will be available for rental from Jan 2009 through TopTeks (www.top-teks.co.uk).

The housings will provide controls for Cooke and Zeiss primes first and these lenses will be marketed by Top Teks in the new year. Leaving aside the 3K option for RED, the 2K format is close to Super 16 and 2/in broadcast format. Nekton housings and lens control systems are already set up for these.

The RED fits existing Nekton housings with space for battery and hard drives etc and operating the RED will be no different so anyone familiar with Nekton housing handling will hardly notice any difference.

There are four housings that will be RED capable from January 2009.
They will be for hire as with the current Broadcast housings available from TopTeks (Sony 759, 790 and 900 and Panasonic 900 and Varicam).

Cheers ...

[Pawel Achtel]

I didn't expect much from the BBC, but why people make square, heavy coffins for their cameras?

Anyway, here is a render of my new titanium back plate specially designed to accomodate Red LCD monitor.

[Michael Hastings]

I didn't expect much from the BBC, but why people make square, heavy coffins for their cameras?

Anyway, here is a render of my new titanium back plate specially designed to accomodate Red LCD monitor.

Looks to me like they are converted from existing Betacam/HDCam/Varicam housings (notice the window on the left rear for time code window). I'd be curious as to the displacement of those housings - looks to me like 70 to 80 pounds as opposed to the 9 inch OD tubular size we use at about 55 pounds displacement, with room for battery, drive, and LCD.

David, how are they doing all of that gearing - through the tube of the port? Looks like a Canon L lens (14mm?) on a birger mount right now.

Pawel, I know you mentioned many posts ago but what diameter is your tube?

Anyway, look for an announcement from me in the next couple days for a discount on our RED housing and upgrade/trade-in policy for an Epic housing - if you are interested in a much smaller housing that was actually designed for the RED.

[Frazier Nivens]

Lucky Bugger.......

Wish I were there also.

Frazier

Friend of mine in Hawaii was filming one of these and got a bit attached to the
pointy end of the animal, trip to the hospital for him.

But the footage was terrific.

[David Nardini]

Looks to me like they are converted from existing Betacam/HDCam/Varicam housings (notice the window on the left rear for time code window). I'd be curious as to the displacement of those housings - looks to me like 70 to 80 pounds as opposed to the 9 inch OD tubular size we use at about 55 pounds displacement, with room for battery, drive, and LCD.

David, how are they doing all of that gearing - through the tube of the port? Looks like a Canon L lens (14mm?) on a birger mount right now.

Pawel, I know you mentioned many posts ago but what diameter is your tube?

Anyway, look for an announcement from me in the next couple days for a discount on our RED housing and upgrade/trade-in policy for an Epic housing - if you are interested in a much smaller housing that was actually designed for the RED.

Mike,

Yes, the core of the housing is the same, front plate will be different.

PL mounted lenses will be servo controlled (to maintain housing controls behaviour the same as today).

DSLR lenses, Canon or Nikon lenses, will be primarily for personal use and not for hire (the unit in the shot is my R1 & Birger for some early tests & measurements).

Keep us posted on your upgrade/trade-in policy fo Epic ... I'll PM you on this subject separately :biggrin:

Cheers

[Michael Hastings]

Since I posted this on another thread, I figured I ought to post it here. I will post the full deal tomorrow or monday - this deal will probably be only a 2 or 3 week offer, but should help people with making a decision before the end of the year which can have some good tax consequences as well.



Mike are you going to make a new housing for Epic? New tray?

Ian

Absolutely, the Epic should be no more difficult to house than RED and a little shorter/smaller.

We could certainly modify RED housings for Epic but usually it is better more sensible to make a new dedicated housing. I think I can make good sense out of allowing a substantial trade in for the RED housings - and would either refurbish/resell or simply spread them around the country at rental houses like Pete Romano did with his Arri Housings and the HMI lights he built for the Abyss.

Every indication is we are almost a year away from Epic availability with a few more months for housings. In order to stimulate RED housing sales and get some people off the fence, I am about to announce a discount and trade in policy that would give people effectively about a 60% trade in value and since the housing price now is $8599 they would be able to use their RED housing for a year or more for a cost of only about $3500 in lost value if they trade it in. And of course that could be even less if they can get more in a resale. The $3500 is a worst case. The other thing is that I could offer an even greater trade-in by simply making a high price on the Epic housing but I don't really want to play the used car tradein game.

By the way, lest someone think I am suggesting in any way that RED is doing that let me make clear that I think the RED case is different. If RED were not doing the REDONE trade in program I suspect that they would sell only a couple hundred Epics in the first year because most people that have REDs could not justify the cost to switch and you would have a much smaller universe of people that could justify those prices (particularly when scarlet will exist as well). However once people think about it for awhile I think they will see that it is foolish NOT to upgrade. The REDONE is a great camera and clearly the best bang for the buck in comparison to anything else out there, BUT it has serious issues with size/weight; power consumption and heat; boot up time; etc. so even if there were not picture quality/frame rate improvements I think you would have to consider upgrading. The fact that we also get much higher data rates (so presumably better recorded picture quality) higher resolution, higher frame rates than REDONE just makes the EpicX upgrade a no brainer. One of our local rental companies - that had resisted buying REDONE - just bought one specifically because of the trade in program. They were waiting for the 2nd gen product but with the trade in they can rent out the R1 for close to a year and then get the camera they wanted at a better deal than just waiting and buying it outright.

I think at least 50% of people will upgrade and this guarantees RED a large number of Epics to get the quantity price breaks for parts and manufacturing costs to make both the upgrade program and the higher level/lower volume Epics feasible. In fact, it seems like even more cameras might get traded in as even those who were stretched to get a REDONE will see that it makes more sense to sell it to someone to trade in and then buy a Scarlet. Which may be a part of the master plan since RED would be getting most of their users on the 2nd generation product.

[Pawel Achtel]

Pawel, I know you mentioned many posts ago but what diameter is your tube?


It is 10" with wall thickness of just 3mm. The main shell is machined 316.

[Ken Corben]

a day with marlin.....

Very nice Johnny...

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey David, nice housing there. Coming from 'Scoonesy' I am sure it will function flawlessly, unless of course he has cast the 'break down' spell on it that seems to plague his HD Cams :) The number of times I've heard that in the middle of a shoot he's had to dismantle the camera circuits to find a fault. Thats a great skill to have in the field.

Keep us informed of your experiences with the system. I will have some feedback pretty soon on other housing developments.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

The number of times I've heard that in the middle of a shoot he's had to dismantle the camera circuits to find a fault. Thats a great skill to have in the field.

Cheers,
Mark.

used to be pretty good at that stuff in the Betacam days... but I don't think we are allowed to do that with RED - what with voiding the warranty and all. It's one of the things that concerns me as I plan some longer trips next year but I guess I'll be out of warranty then anyway.

[Mark Thorpe]

Not much to screw up on a solid state camera though. If it fails I guess scenarios of a creek with no paddle come to mind! Isolation is the name of the game, am writing a book at the moment so that keeps me busy when not brushing away the natives to get to the pristine dive spots of Indonesia. All good stuff.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Matt Ferraro]

Not much to screw up on a solid state camera though. If it fails I guess scenarios of a creek with no paddle come to mind!
Most of the major issues I have had with the F900 in the field have been with the tape transport mechanism. The two times a board has gone in the camera I was happy to have a spare body on hand.
Matt

[Mark Thorpe]

Most of the major issues I have had with the F900 in the field have been with the tape transport mechanism. The two times a board has gone in the camera I was happy to have a spare body on hand.
MattSounds like the same record with a number of cameras. Could just be that tape transport mechanisms and salt water make bad bedfellows.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

Just got the SCR ticket. Diving the Voyager system able to switch between SCR and CCR. It may not be the best out there but I like it 'coz its the first one I have tried. Things will only get better from here. I'm the good looking one on the left.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/CamDiver/Heavy-Breathers.jpg

Cheers,
Mark.

[Pawel Achtel]

Just got the SCR ticket...

No ticket required here ...

ahem, just a holiday picture :)

[Mark Thorpe]

Its my thread and.........

[Mark Thorpe]

I will post ..........

[Mark Thorpe]

The 1000th post if I want to..........