Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

[Johnny Friday]

Holy Cow Mark! you get better looking every day mate! Good combination of salt and water will do that to the complexion i hear....but doing even more so for you amigo. Well, i guess i gotta get down there and take advantage.

#1001 just after 1000

[Mark Thorpe]

Come on down Johnny, the beers 'r' cheap, the women wanton and the water is warm, just how you like it I hear. Just let me know the flight number so I can come meet ya at the airport.

Be good, and if you can't be good, be careful!

Cheers,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

Mark,
I hear rumors in the air....we might be in your neck of the woods soon. Anything for cheap beer.

[Mark Thorpe]

Johnny, give me a heads up if passin' through. I may be able to point you in the direction of some non Taco eatin', Tequila drinkin' own teeth owning, happy to see ya babes......makes a difference from MEHICO Amigo.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Bo Randers]

Hi
Have anyone tryed the Phantom Port out with a still lens. ?

Cheers

Bo Randers
www.lighterandbetter.dk

[Mark Thorpe]

- announcement -

Guys, Gals and anyone else who stops by,

Just wanted to let you all know that this will be my last posting on REDUser. For no other reason than having such a strained time schedule. I am working on private projects, writing a book and just settling into married life. I am sure there are still potential benefits of being a part of this community and I will definitely stop by for a read every now and again.

Most of the guys here who have become friends have my personal contact info so please feel free to use that for contacts as of now. I will not respond further to PM's or other contact attempts stemming from REDUser.

I guess to an extent this is also my own private stand against the enforcement of the real name policy. I have nothing to hide but certainly understand that there are certain users here, high profile users, who simply wish to retain a certain amount of anonymity. Being forced out of their cover is a tactic I certainly don't agree with.

So cheers one and all. Its been a great ride. I trust your goals, present and future, bear fruit and your successes are achieved with the professionalism thats I have seen displayed, in most cases, by those I have had the pleasure of interacting with.

Cheers,
CamDiver

[Pawel Achtel]

Best of luck, Mark. I look forward to see some of your work and I am sure we will bump into each other sometime.

[Michael Hastings]

We will miss you. Thanks for starting the thread and adding so much over the past couple years.


...

I guess to an extent this is also my own private stand against the enforcement of the real name policy. I have nothing to hide but certainly understand that there are certain users here, high profile users, who simply wish to retain a certain amount of anonymity. Being forced out of their cover is a tactic I certainly don't agree with.

Cheers,
CamDiver

I'm with you. I, like you, have never hidden my real name but like Ian Bloom pointed out earlier - it just probably isn't a great idea to have your name spread out all over the internet constantly. Also, as you say there are times when the ability for people to be anonymous can bring valuable contributions to the discussion.

I will be staying around because REDUSER has been a great source of leads for AquaVideo (and many thanks to you and this thread for that as well) but I am putting off the name change as long as possible by putting my real name in the signature - as a small nod to resistance.

Take care, man and I hope you and your new wife will find success and/or fulfillment in all your endeavours.

Mike

[Rudi Herbert]

Fellow underwater shooters,

I have posted a request for help on the Cinematography thread called "Wide Angle Zooms?" which I think some of you on this group might be able to help me with. So, once again, any information would be appreciated.

[Johnny Friday]

why not the 18-50? i use it and it is a practical lens already featured and in use. I think there are some better lenses, but may mean modifying the housint to accept them. Cook for example...but $$$.

[Johnny Friday]

forgot to specify:
cooke 15-40 or optimo 15-40

[Pawel Achtel]

forgot to specify:
cooke 15-40 or optimo 15-40

Or, Arri Zeiss 15.5-45mm T2.6 Lightweight Zoom (LWZ-1). However, wide zoom lenses are suboptimal for underwater use because position of entrance pupil changes while zooming. Unless, of course, you use it as a variable prime and change the position of the camera for each focal length.

[Johnny Friday]

Or, Arri Zeiss 15.5-45mm T2.6 Lightweight Zoom (LWZ-1). However, wide zoom lenses are suboptimal for underwater use because position of entrance pupil changes while zooming. Unless, of course, you use it as a variable prime and change the position of the camera for each focal length.

That very well may be true in theory and on white paper--as i see the math tells the truth. However in practice, this lens if unbelievable underwater. I do not own one, but a friend does and I've seen the results and they are stunning images that I think only someone analyzing the image could tell. A 9+ for a video image on any zoom range that i have seen.

[Pawel Achtel]

That very well may be true in theory and on white paper--as i see the math tells the truth. However in practice, this lens if unbelievable underwater. I do not own one, but a friend does and I've seen the results and they are stunning images that I think only someone analyzing the image could tell. A 9+ for a video image on any zoom range that i have seen.

How do you define 9+ image? I guess we have different ways of rating image quality.

Why not share some results? We discussed it before and I am yet to see a frame resolving more than maybe 800 pixels horizontally (about standard definition quality). Not only I haven't seen good contrast frame, but I also have not seen one in focus.

My experience is that well designed underwater optics perform as well in real life as they do on paper. My focusing scales are all calculated and theoretical values. Focus is pulled off the scales, not by eye (which you can't judge accurately underwater). It is perfect and matches 100% with calculated values.

[Johnny Friday]

a comment only pawel can make.....but expected

[Johnny Friday]

Pawel, this is what happened to the last guy that talked smack about me....he had to walk home from the mountains.......i left him a bottle of water though.

careful big guy.

[Pawel Achtel]

Pawel, this is what happened to the last guy that talked smack about me....he had to walk home from the mountains.......i left him a bottle of water though.

careful big guy.

Johnny,

I find your unprovoked trolling completely unjustified and annoying. If you have an opinion about the effect of position of entrance pupil on sharpness and contrast of an underwater image, you are welcome to share and debate it. I shared my technical insights. Earlier, I also supported my opinions with my images, so that you could critique them and my techniques to your heart content. However, I am not a subject here and personal remarks won't be taken kindly.

[Johnny Friday]

Pawel, come on....unprovoked? you must be kidding. And your not so sensitive are you? Wow! I never would have thought you would have been so thin skinned. you sure come on like a bag of bricks. How have i offended you? Did i once criticize your work?

Take a nap and get a bottle of milk and get over it. Your Australian no? what a baby! your mates at the pub would be very disappointed i think. now get some sleep grumpy.

[Rudi Herbert]

Wow, take it easy guys, and thank you both for the replies.

Pawel, of course I would not use the zoom underwater as a zoom but as a variable prime of sorts. The one thing that concerns me is that at its widest, the lens approaches 90 degrees in field of vision, which in my opinion, is the minimum for underwater work I'm happy to live with. Respectfully now Pawel, for someone with such high standards and exacting knowledge of what technology yields the best artistic results, I am dying to see footage of yours shot on something other than HDCAM. Do you have any RED underwater footage yet?

Baja Productions, as for the RED 18-50, yes, it's not a bad lens, but since we need something a bit sturdier for steadicam work and a bit wider for underwater, I may well go with the Arri 15-5-40mm, though I gotta say, I'm VERY intrigued by that HAWK 10-25 lens in Germany...

[Pawel Achtel]

Rudi, I won't be able to show any footage from Red One for several months due to my spinal injury. I am curious the results more than anyone, although I will use the same CinePort optics.

Hawk lenses (or any anamorphics) may suffer from astigmatism through a dome. Not sure.

The Arri LWZ-1 should be good as a variable prime with advantage of using same lens and ability to configure with flat port for longer focal lengths. Also, it will accept Master Diopters for domes with small curvatures.

PS: There is no problem criticising images (that's why they are posted here in the first place) or debating techniques and technical matters. But there is absolutely no need to make personal remarks if someonce's approach is different or doesn't suit someone else's ego.

[Michael Hastings]

Rudi:

Wondering what your shooting situation is. I agree that the 15 is kind of the maximum for general U/W work, as by comparison most in the HD video world for the last 5+ years have been working with 100 to 115 degree wide angles. Of course in very clear water it will work fine but even there your colors saturation and overall clarity would be noticeably better with a wider lens.

I'm guessing that you don't want to go to SLR lenses, but I'm just wondering why you wouldn't just use primes? As Pawel suggests, if you are trying to maximize quality, you would need to change ports for the longer focal lengths so would be basically as easy to change lenses at the same time.

I have an Arri 10mm T2.1 as well as a 12mm (which I am about to sell), that we could probably arrange to try out some time since I believe you are here in the Miami/FLL area.

As far as changing focal lengths underwater, if you actually have a zoom like the SLR 10-22 Canon or Tamron 11-16, it is nice to have the capability - but you will lose some quality. On the other hand, we did that many times in the video days and got some useful shots that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

As far as Johnny and Pawel, I know Pawel's back is healing but I'd like to get you two under contract so when it heals when can arrange the first 4K underwater cage match.:biggrin:

[Rudi Herbert]

Michael,

I'm gonna be filming a running chase scene high on some rocky seaside cliffs in the south of Turkey, where I wanna use a range of wide angle focal distances to a) accentuate the sense of speed during the chase, which you know wide angle can do as it helps pull in the foreground closer making the background and edges of the frame go by quicker, b) keep the sea in the background relatively in focus as it is a very dramatic sight, and with any decent wide angle at F5.6 or so, I should be able to keep everything in the scene crisp and c) we'll be doing a couple of underwater shots on the same location, where both actors plunge into the water from a cliff and wanted to a) do an air-to-water travel shot that will follow them from the cliff all the way underwater so it needs to be the same wide angle lens used topside that goes underwater, and then b) once underwater, as you know, I want to have as wide a field of vision as possible and the ability to get crisp detail and good color rendition from this wide lens. So, although technically I don't need to shoot everything with one lens, I was just wondering if such a zoom exists because given the fact that I will use wide angles very frequently, it would make more sense to me to buy a great zoom instead of a few primes, that's all.

I would like to take a look at your RED setup, including the housing and the Arri primes and get a feel for ergonomics and weight, so yes, it would not be a bad idea for me to visit you up in Fort Lauderdale whenever you have some time, preferably some time in the next two weeks before I leave town. PM me or call me (305-815-3560) and let me know of your availability. I've already had a couple of occasions where I've needed a RED/housing combo and could have done it through you, so let me get set so I can start sending some business your way.

[Johnny Friday]

Might have a zeiss 14mm mk2 for sale if anyone is interested. It's a T 2.1 and in great condition and has been serviced recently. I have two and am shooting a test w/ Ken Corben in 3d so when we finish up, it will likely be up for grabs. feel free to pm me if you are interested - likely $6k + shipping.

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi,

My red housing is near completion and I am wondering what others are doing about NDing underwater? With 2/3" video cameras I simply guess the ND setting from the wheel in the camera before going u/w (based on weather and anticipated depth of dive).

Now with RED which is rated at 320asa approx and PL lenses, say you are shooting in a pool on a sunny day, you are going to need to ND it. I don't have room in front of the lens in the port to fit a large 4x6 glass ND. Has anyone used a bit of ND gel at the back end between lens and camera sensor? If this works it would make life easier.

I suppose the alternative would be to get a couple of different strength round ND made, but they would be about 130mm diam and would cost a fortune.

Any thought much appreciated.


George
www.coralseatv.com
Sydney, Australia

[chuck colburn]

If you put a gel behind the lens it will optically extend the flange focale depth about
.0015"
This is not good when using wide angle, high speed or zoom lenses. If you go this route you are going to have to either reset the flange focale depth every time you use a gel or put a gel even if only a clear one on every lens.

[Pawel Achtel]

If you use Canon EF 14mm f/2.8 II, it has a gelatin filter slot for exactly this purpose. Nikon 14mm-24mm f/2.8 does not have this capability. Some re-housed still lenses do have rear filter slot.

My solution: CinePort has Arri filter tray compatible slot. The filter holder simply clips into the rear masking plate of the CinePort. The filter holder is made using rapid 3D prototyping resin. Costs about $1k South Pacific Peso (a.k.a. Aussie Dollar) to make. Bit more to design.

[Dave Blackham]

I don't know if this has been raised else were, if so id be grateful if some one could point me at the thread. Most of our work involves underwater work, mostly wildlife. We need to use zoom lenses rather than primes with large zoom range. Its a concern with S35 and perhaps FF53 sensors that the range of available lenses is much more limited for 4k/5k not to mention the added depth of field challenges. I also have taken on board Pawel's comments in another thread regarding reduced edge resolution with underwater optics with large sensors. I am wondering if if it is possible to use 2/3 zooms as we have been using for HD work to shoot at 3k (2k is thought not to hold anything above an equivalent 720 resolution) is there a 2/3 lens that projects an image that would cover 3k ? or any other large range zooms available ?

thanks,

Dave

[CoralSeaTV]

Pawel,

Your cineport ND method looks like you have to take-off the actual glass dome everytime you want to change/remove the ND? This would take a bit of time I imagine and then there's always the chance of introducing dust into the sanctum sanctorum of the dome cavity. I will have to add/remove/change strength of the ND in non-ideal conditions, like on a little boat rocking about at sea with salt spray etc.

I want a solution that takes a moment to change over and is optically the best (oh yeah, and does not cost a fortune) Am I asking too much?

I suspect the answer for me will be to get custom made round ND's that I can attach to the front of the arri, cooke, red etc PL lenses that I am planning to use U/W. This would be pretty quick to change over as I have easy/quick access to the front of the camera lens when in the housing. But as all these lenses have different size front diameters, from about 97mm to about 140mm what size round NDs do I get? The biggest one, 140mm but then how do I attach this to a 97mm lens? Also as I don't think any PL lens has a thread at the front, I suppose I gotta use gaffa tape or worse blue tac to attach the ND. I suspect these (probably very expensive) round NDs will have a short life if I use this method. I don't mean to whine about it, I know there is a solution, I'm just interested in what others are doing to get around this new RED PL ND issue,

Lastly does anyone know if someone make these mega 140mm diam NDs commercially?

Thanks
George

[Pawel Achtel]

George,

There is acces to the filter from the rear of the CinePort by removing the entire round black masking disc from the rear. But, you are right, you need to take the entire port off or open back plate and remove the camera. I wouldn't do it in the field. It is a limitation of my solution.

Dave,

It is a very hard choice. I decided to use primes for wide angle and all the optics are matched to exactly that one focal length. It is more challanging to get a variety of shots you need to stich a sequence, but can be fun too. Essentially you zoom by getting closer, which often is more attractive anyway.

The image sensor size is a big problem. Generally you use small curvature (large diameter) dome and stop down the lens. Unfortunately, the relationship between the image curvature, dome size and sensor size are about proportional so, in order to get the desired resolution at, say f/8, you need quite large port for S35 image sensor. Consequently, you not only shoot with fixed focal length, but also with fixed aperture.

Another approach is to make achromatic optical doublet adaptor. I have designed one, but the glass would weigh about 10kg to cover a MasterPrime and it has some other disadvantages.

You can use zoom lenses with flat port up to about 50 degrees diagonal, that's easy. But you won't get those breath-taking, non distorted wide angle shots with it.

It is remarkable that in the day and age of mass production we seemed to have lost specialised products, like dedicated underwater lenses. :bye2:

[Michael Hastings]

It is remarkable that in the day and age of mass production we seemed to have lost specialised products, like dedicated underwater lenses. :bye2:

The problem is that as places like Korea, China and such have taken over so much of manufacturing by copying, cloning, etc. and gaining markets by lowballing on price, it drives down profit margins of the originating manufacturers and they have to focus on the core products and abandon the more esoteric accessories and niche products. (Not to mention that some actually have to switch to manufacturing in those countries - which isn't as practical for the lower volume stuff so they get abandoned for that reason also.) Witness Nikon, which basically had to abandon the whole Nikonos line. There just wasn't enough volume and as margins get compressed they can't justify the R&D, support, and manufacturing resources so they move in the direction of the most common denominator.



I want a solution that takes a moment to change over and is optically the best (oh yeah, and does not cost a fortune) Am I asking too much?
....
....

Lastly does anyone know if someone make these mega 140mm diam NDs commercially?

Thanks
George


To answer your question in reverse order - Schneider makes 138mm diameter filters. NDs are about $300 each. They also make some color correction filters in that size. AquaVideo is a Schneider/Century dealer so I can get them for you if you need them.

Secondly, practically speaking you are probably asking too much, when you talk about PL mount cine lenses. I admire Pawel for going for the absolute maximum in resolution with the expense required for buying a master prime and making the dedicated port. But you have to start doing some cost benefit calculations as well as factoring in the logistical problems you mention. Bottom line is that PL lenses, besides being expensive also require a fair bit of hassle and expense to setup gearing in a housing and still have some severe limitations in handling with the gears up at the front of the housing (or some complicated linkages to get it to the rear of the housing.) All is doable, but you have to ask - is it in your budget and are the handling trade offs worth it? Or is that money better spent somewhere else?

This is why you should seriously look at one of the SLR smart mount solutions. Without getting into the still vs cine optical quality argument except to say that while SOME cine lenses might be a slight bit better optically - the slr lenses are very, very good. Most of the limitations of SLR lenses for abovewater shooting aren't very relevant for underwater: i.e. 1) optically probably the biggest difference is that most SLR lenses are F2.8 so one or two stops slower than the best cine lenses but this isn't normally as much of an issue for normal daylight underwater shooting or shooting with U/W lights 2) we don't normally work with a focus puller so some of the operator mechanical issues of the lens itself aren't as critical. and 3) since the lens is inside a housing we don't have some of the "snob" concerns that you have using SLR lenses in a surface shoot.

In contrast, there are some huge advantages with slr lenses: 1) AF SLR lenses have built-in iris and focus motors so we can have electronic controls much as we have done with broadcast video lenses for the past 25 years or so - at very modest cost. 2) The SLR lenses typically take standard 72mm or 77mm filters so all of the filters you would want to use are readily available at relatively low cost - plus you have both standard diopters as well as achromatic diopters at reasonable prices. All are quick and easy to change. 3) cost - the huge volume means high quality lenses are available in the $500 to $2000 range and you have a wide variety of primes and zooms. Further the volume allows the higher end lenses to have extremely sophisticated coatings that previously were only available on very expensive zeiss lenses. 4) All of the SLR lenses designed in the last 7 or 8 years were designed for digital sensors like the RED's - unlike most of the Cine lenses out there.





Another approach is to make achromatic optical doublet adaptor. I have designed one, but the glass would weigh about 10kg to cover a MasterPrime and it has some other disadvantages.


Is it possible that the standard diopters might actually offset some of the problems of the dome - since the positive diopters are essentially the reverse of the negative diopter of the dome when it contacts water? I've used both on broadcast and prosumer video cameras but haven't had the occasion to do much side by side/scientific testing. With your back problems and the time to construct the housing I suspect you haven't been able to do much actual testing on the RED - but you seem to have a pretty good grasp of the optical science so could at least speculate based on sound theory.

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply. I totally agree with you about DSLR lenses and if
I had my own RED camera I would be going that way. But I don't
own a RED and I will be hiring one in or using the clients. So I suspect that
removing the RED PL bayonet and putting on the Birger or other brand would
not be cool with them.I am only going with PL lenses as I have built the
housing from the ground up and dearly love to have my options open. As an example my HD
U/W housing fits, F900s, Varicams, HPX3000 etc and this versatility has really
clinched a lot of jobs over the last few years. As I don't want to invest in any RED gear or lenses I think having the housing will work with PL lenses will be the way to go for now and I also have the option of using DSLR lenses because I am using the Viewfactor Impero to controll the Iris and Focus servos on
the PL lenses and this same controller will also (I am told) control the Canon lens IRIS/fOCUS via the Birger mount.

Anyway I am interested in buying maybe two of the large NDs and will PM you
when I get to that stage. Hopefully in about a month.

Soon also I am going to post some pics of my sexy new RED housing.

George
www.coralseatv.com

[Pawel Achtel]

George,

It is very ambitious to be able to adapt most client-supplied lenses. Not impossible, but certainly difficult. Another, perhaps easier solution, would be to get one good PL lens and offer it with your housing to the client's body. I think this would be a better solution. Just a thought.


Anyway I am interested in buying maybe two of the large NDs and will PM you when I get to that stage. Hopefully in about a month.

If Mike can get a good price from Schneider, I'd be interested in some filters too around this time. I'm looking for some grads and CC filters. We can save on postage to Oz. :)

BTW, I have a 4.5" round clear filter, which will cover most large lenses. You can borrow it next time we meet. You may be able to make a slot for it in your port or clamp on the lens. I believe this is a fairly standard size and not as expensive as 138mm.

[Michael Hastings]

George,

It is very ambitious to be able to adapt most client-supplied lenses. Not impossible, but certainly difficult. Another, perhaps easier solution, would be to get one good PL lens and offer it with your housing to the client's body. I think this would be a better solution. Just a thought.


If Mike can get a good price from Schneider, I'd be interested in some filters too around this time. I'm looking for some grads and CC filters. We can save on postage to Oz. :)

I think Pawel has the right idea. Although as a beta tester I have had a birger canon mount for quite a while, I do a fair amount of rentals and as you say you can't expect them to put on the canon mount, so I made a trade deal for the older zeiss 12mm T2.1 as it is wide and pretty easy to control iris and focus with a simple control. Recently I bought a 10mm T2.1 (which is huge so I had to make a special port/8" glass dome) so will offer that most of the time and will be selling the 12mm (about $5500 to $6500) . Also I think Johnny Friday (bajaproductions) is going to be selling one of the two 14mm lenses that he was using for 3d tests. (look for a post a week or two ago).

As far as the Schneider filters, dealer is about 20% off so you could figure about 12-15 percent discount to you.

BTW Century has a 138mm achromat diopter - I think 2.5 but it is $2500 where a 72mm is only $430.

[Jim Hurwitz]

Longer cable lengths would probably be fairly easy with transceivers and fiber optic cables.

Michael,

We have created fiber optic systems for many underwater HD/SDI applications, including end users like Woods Hole, Montery Bay Aquarium Research Institute, PACE, Lightstorm (for Jim Cameron's live Discovery Channel underwater broadcast from the Titanic a few years back), Insite Pacific, and many, many more. Let me know if you have an questions about fiber optics for underwater production.

Best,

Jim
---------------------------
Jim Hurwitz
Product Manager, On-Camera and E-Cinema Products
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
415-383-5388
jhurwitz@telecast-fiber.com
www.telecast-fiber.com

[Rudi Herbert]

Recently I bought a 10mm T2.1 (which is huge so I had to make a special port/8" glass dome) so will offer that most of the time and will be selling the 12mm

Mike,

I had sent you a PM as well as a personal address on this thread 3-4 pages ago asking to arrange so that I could pass by and take a look at your housing/RED combo since I've had several chances to rent it or recommend it to clients that came to me for advice. Is there any way we can do this or should I look elsewhere? I'm in Miami.

Regards,

[CoralSeaTV]

Pawel & Mike,

Thanks for that. I think I might eventually buy my own wide 14mm or 12mm and get a couple of ND's that fit that actual lens. I reckon about 95% of commercial jobs will be shot on a 12mm or 14mm lens. However I will wait a while as I am out of money after the housing costs. I will do my initial housing tests with a RED 18-55mm lens which I can access. I will post some footage when done (at least 6 weeks away).

By the way I have now looked over most of the posts on this thread and was wondering has anybody actually posted some U/W footage shot on the RED camera? I have seen heaps of top side RED footage but no U/W. Is there a link somewhere that I have missed.

Thanks


George

[Monteiro]

Here are some samples of some footage I have shot using my prototype Sea-Cam housing with the 18-50 zoom lens and a custom dome port. It is also available for rental (with an operator/assistant). The topside footage is HDV.

www.sea-cam.com/Video/DOLPHINS&SHARKS.wmv

[Pawel Achtel]

Here are some samples of some footage I have shot using my prototype Sea-Cam housing with the 18-50 zoom lens and a custom dome port. It is also available for rental (with an operator/assistant). The topside footage is HDV.

www.sea-cam.com/Video/DOLPHINS&SHARKS.wmv

Any chance to post it in higher resolution and less compression?

[Monteiro]

I edited in a few more shots today and output a 600x300 H264 MOV file on the Medium quality setting. It yielded about a 50 meg file which is fairly clean. Unfortunately the water was not that clear in the dolphin segment and as the subjects move away from the camera it loses contrast. I compensated with Final Cuts 3 way color corrector but I am not totally happy with it.

www.sea-cam.com/Video/Trailer.mov

The shark hypnotism segment was in 40 feet of water much clearer but since this was only the second time I used my dome port my hyperfocal distance was slightly off, making distant subjects slightly soft where the close up of the shark's eye was right on the money.

www.sea-cam.com/Video/sharkhypnotism.mov

[Frazier Nivens]

I edited in a few more shots today and output a 600x300 H264 MOV file on the Medium quality setting. It yielded about a 50 meg file which is fairly clean. Unfortunately the water was not that clear in the dolphin segment and as the subjects move away from the camera it loses contrast. I compensated with Final Cuts 3 way color corrector but I am not totally happy with it.

www.sea-cam.com/Video/Trailer.mov

The shark hypnotism segment was in 40 feet of water much clearer but since this was only the second time I used my dome port my hyperfocal distance was slightly off, making distant subjects slightly soft where the close up of the shark's eye was right on the money.

www.sea-cam.com/Video/sharkhypnotism.mov

Hi George,

Great footage, guess what I came across just yesterday.

Where did you shoot the dolphin footage??

Best,
Frazier

[Rudi Herbert]

Monteiro,

Couple of questions for you. I assume you're in the Bahamas or Belize? Can you please send me some contact info for rentals of your housing? What kind of dome are you using on your housing, glass or acrylic, and what's the size, 6 or 8 inches? I see you're using the UR Pro filter, which is great, but have you tried adjusting the white balance in post as well? I've done some fairly aggressive white balancing with the Sony EX-1 on 60 ft deep footage in very dirty water, where I couldn't use a filter, but the minute I adjusted the WB, I got a very nice color rendition with minimal image noise. I would be interested to see how the RED handles the changes in WB before rendering the images noisy or soft.

Regards,

[George Evatt]

I edited in a few more shots today and output a 600x300 H264 MOV file on the Medium quality setting. It yielded about a 50 meg file which is fairly clean. Unfortunately the water was not that clear in the dolphin segment and as the subjects move away from the camera it loses contrast. I compensated with Final Cuts 3 way color corrector but I am not totally happy with it.

www.sea-cam.com/Video/Trailer.mov

The shark hypnotism segment was in 40 feet of water much clearer but since this was only the second time I used my dome port my hyperfocal distance was slightly off, making distant subjects slightly soft where the close up of the shark's eye was right on the money.

www.sea-cam.com/Video/sharkhypnotism.mov

Hi Monteiro,

THanks for posting that RED footage in higher res. It looks great and what perfect conditions to shoot in. I would love to also know some tech stuff, such as which lens were you using, and did you use a UR pro type filter?

My RED housing will now not be ready untilI would love to see it in even higher quality and a bigger size.

Were you using a UR Pro filter? Must have been a big one and they cost a fortune.

[C.H.Haskell]

George! Nice work man, wow you really make me want to head south...this NYC weather is making me have cabin fever, thanks for a glimpse from where ever you are. I cant wait until I get my under water housing...you guys are having too much fun.

[Monteiro]

Yes I was using a UR Pro and it did come in very handy on the deep stuff but was really unnecessary in the shallow area. A 3 stop ND filter would have been fine. A polarizer might have been even better as the water was a little cloudy. I have never used one underwater because I never had a camera this sensitive. The lens was the 18-50 Red and I just screwed on a 72mm UR Pro that I have had for about 15 years. I don't know what they sell for now but I used to use a CC 30R with almost identical results. There is no real magic in the UR Pro red filter counteracts the blue and allows the white balance control greater range. It is the white balance control that does the fine tuning.

[Pawel Achtel]

The colour balance on the shark shots was quite good, I think.

[Monteiro]

I am using a 6" acrylic dome in a modified Oceanic port that I used to use on my Betacam housing. I tried to find a still camera port with a big enough opening to fit the 18-50 Red lens which has a 4.5" front diameter but couldn't find one so I just ordered some new acrylic domes from my favorite compass manufacturer and went with something I knew would work. I am still open to suggestions on ports. I haven't ever tried glass. Right after I did the shark hypnosis segment we got all the other divers out of the water and speared a fish in an effort to start a feeding frenzy. One of the sharks hit the dome so hard that I thought he broke it. I'll post that footage if you are interested. As far as rental is concerned, for now I will be renting it as a package with me as the operator or assistant. There are so many things that can go wrong in the underwater arena that I would hate to be responsible for someone losing a camera or worse. You can contact me directly for rates.

george@msolutions.tv

[CoralSeaTV]

I am using a 6" acrylic dome in a modified Oceanic port that I used to use on my Betacam housing. I tried to find a still camera port with a big enough opening to fit the 18-50 Red lens which has a 4.5" front diameter but couldn't find one so I just ordered some new acrylic domes from my favorite compass manufacturer and went with something I knew would work. I am still open to suggestions on ports. I haven't ever tried glass. Right after I did the shark hypnosis segment we got all the other divers out of the water and speared a fish in an effort to start a feeding frenzy. One of the sharks hit the dome so hard that I thought he broke it. I'll post that footage if you are interested. As far as rental is concerned, for now I will be renting it as a package with me as the operator or assistant. There are so many things that can go wrong in the underwater arena that I would hate to be responsible for someone losing a camera or worse. You can contact me directly for rates.

george@msolutions.tv

Hi George,

Again great footage. Aquatica make an excellent 8" acrylic dome with the aqualens bayonet system (you can buy them from B&H in NYC for about $280USD). The opening/hole is 142mm which is big enough for many 12 & 14mm PL type lenses. The only thing is you've got to deal with their particular bayonet thread system, which is tricky unless you have someone who really knows how to machine this sort of thread at the front of your housing. I was surprised just how wide your shots looked for an 18mm lens. I would have thought the footage was shot with something wider. So maybe there is some use for the 18-50 RED lens U/W. I figured it was going to be a bit like the Nikonos 35mm lens, not much good for anything really.

Kind regards

George
www.coralseatv.com

[Michael Hastings]

Hi George,

Again great footage. Aquatica make an excellent 8" acrylic dome with the aqualens bayonet system (you can buy them from B&H in NYC for about $280USD). The opening/hole is 142mm which is big enough for many 12 & 14mm PL type lenses. The only thing is you've got to deal with their particular bayonet thread system, which is tricky unless you have someone who really knows how to machine this sort of thread at the front of your housing. I was surprised just how wide your shots looked for an 18mm lens. I would have thought the footage was shot with something wider. So maybe there is some use for the 18-50 RED lens U/W. I figured it was going to be a bit like the Nikonos 35mm lens, not much good for anything really.

Kind regards

George
www.coralseatv.com



The older large threaded dome you describe is the dome setup we are using as our standard port system - we have the threads machined into the aluminum frontplate and we bought up all of the remaining domes, macro ports, etc. of that style from Helix who bought them out when Nikon (who was distributing Aquatica at the time) got out of the underwater biz. These domes predated the current owners of Aquatica so they don't really make them standard anymore, but we have a lot of spares and can either have them make more with a significant order or make them ourselves.

George, I have this thread in some large generic plates- as well as an 8" glass dome - that could probably be adapted to your housing if you like.

[Frazier Nivens]

I am using a 6" acrylic dome in a modified Oceanic port that I used to use on my Betacam housing. I tried to find a still camera port with a big enough opening to fit the 18-50 Red lens which has a 4.5" front diameter but couldn't find one so I just ordered some new acrylic domes from my favorite compass manufacturer and went with something I knew would work. I am still open to suggestions on ports. I haven't ever tried glass. Right after I did the shark hypnosis segment we got all the other divers out of the water and speared a fish in an effort to start a feeding frenzy. One of the sharks hit the dome so hard that I thought he broke it. I'll post that footage if you are interested. As far as rental is concerned, for now I will be renting it as a package with me as the operator or assistant. There are so many things that can go wrong in the underwater arena that I would hate to be responsible for someone losing a camera or worse. You can contact me directly for rates.

george@msolutions.tv

George,

Thought you'd like to see this photo I shot of you back in Nassau, Bahamas, Nassau Scuba Centre, Tunnel Wall, year 2000 I think it was.

Best,
Frazier

[Monteiro]

Wow thanks Frazier! I really appreciate it. I have sow few pictures of myself underwater and I wasn't tangled in the power cable or anything. As for the date that was a housing I built in the 80s for a JVC KY-2700 so it has to be at least 15-18 years old. I would love to have a printable file of it. You can reach me at george@msolutions.tv. Thanks again.

George

[Monteiro]

Hi George,

Again great footage. Aquatica make an excellent 8" acrylic dome with the aqualens bayonet system (you can buy them from B&H in NYC for about $280USD). The opening/hole is 142mm which is big enough for many 12 & 14mm PL type lenses. The only thing is you've got to deal with their particular bayonet thread system, which is tricky unless you have someone who really knows how to machine this sort of thread at the front of your housing. I was surprised just how wide your shots looked for an 18mm lens. I would have thought the footage was shot with something wider. So maybe there is some use for the 18-50 RED lens U/W. I figured it was going to be a bit like the Nikonos 35mm lens, not much good for anything really.

Kind regards

George
www.coralseatv.com

Thanks for the info on the Aquatica port. I will check it out. With regards to the 18-50 lens I wasn't even going to try it in the housing. I had a great deal on a 10mm lens but I compared the Red lens to the lens I have used for years on my Betacam housing a Fujinon 6.5-23mm and it was almost as wide so I gave it a try. I am glad I did. What I really love about this lens is that you can focus almost to the front surface of the glass. Yesterday in the pool I was literally able fill the screen with my big toe! So my next test is going to be doing some macro stuff. I don't know about you but every time I set up to do macro stuff a whale shark swims by and I want to kick myself. It is great to have the flexibility to do both macro and wide angle with the same lens.

George

PS I output a larger file on the Dolphin footage ( www.sea-cam.com/Video/Trailer/mov ) from 600-300 to 1,200x600 and it only increased file size by about 25% even though the screen size quadrupled. H-264 is strange.

[jim kozmik]

Hi there.I am Jim kozmik, with Undersea Explorer TV and Blue realm tv...we would like to get into red/scarlett whatever this year.looked at gates and Aquavideo..on Aquavideo anyone out there using Nikon/Canon lenses yet..if so how do they compare to the red one 18-50 underwater..also any thoughts on the Aquavideo aluim deepwater housing..I see in pictures no Large lense hood to protect the dome port....and does a surface feed cable come out of the Aquavideo housing....thanks

[Frazier Nivens]

Hi there.I am Jim kozmik, with Undersea Explorer TV and Blue realm tv...we would like to get into red/scarlett whatever this year.looked at gates and Aquavideo..on Aquavideo anyone out there using Nikon/Canon lenses yet..if so how do they compare to the red one 18-50 underwater..also any thoughts on the Aquavideo aluim deepwater housing..I see in pictures no Large lense hood to protect the dome port....and does a surface feed cable come out of the Aquavideo housing....thanks

Hi Jim,

Welcome to the board, I'm sure Mike/Aquavideo will answer pretty soon all your questions.

Next time you're in town let me know in advance and we'll get together again and shoot some with my camera.

Frazier

[Pawel Achtel]

Hi there.I am Jim kozmik, with Undersea Explorer TV and Blue realm tv...

Welcome to the board, Jim. How is Danny going?

[jim kozmik]

Dan is doing fine we just completed our 100th underwater TV show and planning out 2009 shoot season..but were are both puzzled about the underwater camera and housing selection....we thought Sony EX1 in a Gates....the EX3 is coming out from Amphibico in the spring...looked at RED one and Gates and Aquavideo...big diference in price and availability right now,,,,,we are concerned about downloading in the field on some South Pacific Island...any suggestions wold be greatly appreciated..kozzzzz

[Michael Hastings]

Hi there.I am Jim kozmik, with Undersea Explorer TV and Blue realm tv...we would like to get into red/scarlett whatever this year.looked at gates and Aquavideo..on Aquavideo anyone out there using Nikon/Canon lenses yet..if so how do they compare to the red one 18-50 underwater..also any thoughts on the Aquavideo aluim deepwater housing..I see in pictures no Large lense hood to protect the dome port....and does a surface feed cable come out of the Aquavideo housing....thanks

Jim:

Welcome to the board.

I'm not sure what pictures you are seeing without the shade, although sometimes we leave them off in pictures so that it is easier to see it is a dome and maybe looks a little sexier with the reflections. By way of explanation - in general, dome shades are a major pain in the ---, especially when you make housings for a lot of different cameras instead of sort of force feeding the market with housings for only a few Sonys. With the really wide angles we use today it is hard to make a shade that actually does anything that you can easily and securely attach.

The standard port system on our RED housings is the older Aquatica threaded setup (allows bigger lenses like Arri 12mm, Arri 8r, as well as normal SLR size lenses). So you have the choice of the Aquatica wide angle or fisheye shades on the 6" and the wide angle shade on the 8". We are working on a good solution for the 8" glass dome version. The thread for the ports is machined right into our front plate. The picture of the housings below show the standard wide angle shade - the fisheye shade is more cut away.

Yes, we have a surface feed option. (In fact we had both surface feed HD-SDI and surface lens control of the Canon SLR lenses on a housing last summer.)

I'm always sort of surprised at the surface feed question as it is pretty easy to add video out to almost any camera/housing - basically drill and tap a hole and insert either a compression seal or underwater connector. I've never seen a housing (either ours or other manufacturer's) that we couldn't install the video cable out. The only question is whether you want U/W mateable connectors (adds a couple hundred in cost) and whether you use a fairly off-the-shelf coax or a more robust heavy wall cable (again just more money). For pool/shallow water we use a pretty standard cable and a compression seal through a second backplate - so you just pop off one backplate and clamp the other on. For deeper and more regular use with typically use a heavy wall neoprene coated cable with either a compression seal or underwater mateables.

BTW I have been a little out of touch - recently got married and with a fair amount of ongoing work plus the holidays and integrating 2 households I have been a little lax in email/pm response. But I am still here and happy to answer questions - try phoning me at 954 937 6600 to get my attention.

[jim kozmik]

Hay Mike thanks for the reply,we are still in the decideing stage about,what system and needs for our TV show ,and certainly are interested in your housing..
So right now you can build the deepwater aluim housing for how much.18-50 mm lense
How about for the Canon 10-22 lense......Will this housing be able to adapt at all with the new Epic in the future with a new inside camera plate and added controls...

This Scarlett unit will probably be the best way to go,but who no,s when it will be out.I will call you next week...Jim Kozmik..

[Frazier Nivens]

Hay Mike thanks for the reply,we are still in the decideing stage about,what system and needs for our TV show ,and certainly are interested in your housing..
So right now you can build the deepwater aluim housing for how much.18-50 mm lense
How about for the Canon 10-22 lense......Will this housing be able to adapt at all with the new Epic in the future with a new inside camera plate and added controls...

This Scarlett unit will probably be the best way to go,but who no,s when it will be out.I will call you next week...Jim Kozmik..

Jim,

Do you have Canon lenses?? The Birger mount has now been ok'd for installation on the RED and you can use the Canon still glass if you want. But I don't know a time frame for getting the mount as they're just starting to ramp up the shipment of the mounts.

Canon 10-22. Great lens.

Mike's housings are built well. next time you're down to KL let me know in advance and we'll drive up to Mikes for a visit.

Scarlet will be a great camera but it will be a while before you see one of those...

So if you need something now, go RED and Canon glass with Mike's housing.

Are you planning to come back down soon? We could go out and shoot some UW. Maybe we can get Michael down for some dives and you can try the camera housing combination and see how you like it.

Best,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

[Joe Holley]

After a discussion with the folks over at Gates Underwater Products, I wanted to make sure that everyone understands the lens possibilities with the Deep Red Video Housing.

The fact is this: ANY lense that can be used on the Red One Camera can also be used with the Deep Red Video Housing. Gates has done the original design with the Red 18-50, simply because that is the most common lens.

If you have a lens that you would like supported, you will simply work directly with the folks at Gates to design a proper length extension. It is simply too cost prohibitive for Gates to purchase every lens on the market, just to design an extension for it.

[Amund Lie]

Here's a short sample of three clips of a thornback ray, atlantic halibut and northern wolffish in Norway. Shot at 4K with a Sigma 15 - 30 zoom and an Aquatica flat port. The lens (when in focus, I had no focus control that day!) is quite sharp, but the lack of coating on the flat port is quite evident in the shot of the halibut passing.

Will post some more shots soon.

Amund

link:
http://public.me.com/amundlie

link:
http://public.me.com/amundlie

[Frazier Nivens]

Here's a short sample of three clips of a thornback ray, atlantic halibut and northern wolffish in Norway. Shot at 4K with a Sigma 15 - 30 zoom and an Aquatica flat port. The lens (when in focus, I had no focus control that day!) is quite sharp, but the lack of coating on the flat port is quite evident in the shot of the halibut passing.

Will post some more shots soon.

Amund

link:
http://public.me.com/amundlie

link:
http://public.me.com/amundlie

Hey Aymen,

could get the page but the movie wouldn't open, would love to see it.

Best,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

[Frazier Nivens]

I am using a 6" acrylic dome in a modified Oceanic port that I used to use on my Betacam housing. I tried to find a still camera port with a big enough opening to fit the 18-50 Red lens which has a 4.5" front diameter but couldn't find one so I just ordered some new acrylic domes from my favorite compass manufacturer and went with something I knew would work. I am still open to suggestions on ports. I haven't ever tried glass. Right after I did the shark hypnosis segment we got all the other divers out of the water and speared a fish in an effort to start a feeding frenzy. One of the sharks hit the dome so hard that I thought he broke it. I'll post that footage if you are interested. As far as rental is concerned, for now I will be renting it as a package with me as the operator or assistant. There are so many things that can go wrong in the underwater arena that I would hate to be responsible for someone losing a camera or worse. You can contact me directly for rates.

george@msolutions.tv

George,

I've access to several ports that were used on a really good condition Oceanic Hydro 35 housing, one is a 8 inch dome, a flat port and several extension ports. There are also TWO smaller domed extension ports also that fit the same housing. I can email you photos of these if you know of someone who needs them and can use them on a video housing. There's also a almost new Hydro 35 housing with a old Nikon F1 inside and Nikkor 105 Macro.

All are in good condition.

Anyway from the look of your housing the extension domed port looks very similar to what you were using on your housing.

If you're interested in seeing the ports let me know.

Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

[Amund Lie]

Hey Frazier,

Do you have Quicktime 7? I have posted a Windows Media version too, hope you can download and open that. There's a gamma shift between the two, but I guess it looks better on a pc that way anyway.

Amund

[Amund Lie]

FYI: I will be on an orca expedition the coming week, and shooting with the new glass dome from Aquavideo and my old Arri 12mm T2.1. Will post footage from that as soon as I can (next weekend, maybe sooner)

Amund

http://www.stromsholmen.no/?pageID=234

[Frazier Nivens]

Aymen,

I'm on a Mac but it just didn't work. I can also play back a Windows file. Would love to see the footage, will try again..

Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

[Joe Holley]

Hey Aymen,

could get the page but the movie wouldn't open, would love to see it.

Best,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

There's a small download arrow on the right side of the movie title. You have to download it to your computer. It's not setup to play in your browser.

At least that's how I got it to work!

[Joe Holley]

Here are some photos of the Deep Red Housing.
http://www.deepredvideohousing.com/themes/theme091/images/deepred.jpg

http://www.deepredvideohousing.com/themes/theme091/images/deepred-back.jpg

http://www.deepredvideohousing.com/themes/theme091/images/deepred-open.jpg

[Pawel Achtel]

Thanks for the pictures, Joe.

What is the weight of the housing? Do you envisage having a top handle?

[GATES]

Hello Pawel,

The housing is 55lbs. Production models will be slightly more as we finalize buoyancy.

The housing will include two top carry handles. You can carry yourself or with a buddy.

J-

[Pawel Achtel]

The housing is 55lbs. Production models will be slightly more as we finalize buoyancy.

Thanks, Joe. Is it with or without camera, batteries, etc...?

[GATES]

Yes, the 55 lbs includes camera, RED BRICK, RED RAID and RED 18-50.

John

[David Nardini]

Hello,

Anybody in the UK with a R1 housing for hire (housing only) ? Please PM me if you can help.

Regards

[Joe Holley]

Here's a couple more photos of the Gates Deep Red housing.


We have a bunch more here. http://www.marinevisions.com/deep-red-images.html (http://www.marinevisions.com/deep-red-images.html). Including high-res images.

[Pawel Achtel]

Here's a couple more photos of the Gates Deep Red housing.
So it is 24 thousand smackaroonies. Not too bad if it does the job right. Is it compatible or can it be easily made comatible with Scarlet and Epic?

Is the monitor housing available separately? Is it for the small LCD or the 7" Pro?

[Joe Holley]

So it is 24 thousand smackaroonies. Not too bad if it does the job right. Is it compatible or can it be easily made comatible with Scarlet and Epic?

Is the monitor housing available separately? Is it for the small LCD or the 7" Pro?

Considering the capabilities, the $24,000.00 is definitely reasonable. I am itching to get one of these in the water.

Definitely too early to know if it will be at all compatible with Scarlet or Epic, but I'm sure Gates will be looking at all possiblities.

The monitor housing is for the smaller 5" monitor. I am not sure if Gates will sell it separately, but John watches these forums and may be able to give some insight.

[Nick Ambrose]

Considering the capabilities, the $24,000.00 is definitely reasonable. I am itching to get one of these in the water.

Definitely too early to know if it will be at all compatible with Scarlet or Epic, but I'm sure Gates will be looking at all possiblities.

The monitor housing is for the smaller 5" monitor. I am not sure if Gates will sell it separately, but John watches these forums and may be able to give some insight.

yah, 24K may be reasonable but for my uses I am going to need something much less expensive for scarlet at this rate as there is just no way I can justify that kind of outlay at this point.

[Johnny Friday]

Beautiful work on the housing as expected from Gates. I think the reason why you don't see the red LCD is because there is simply no advantage given the restrictions of the LEMO cable that would come out of the housing adn into the LCD.

I would rather see Gates house the EVF and offer that as an option. I know that it can be done using the red LEMO cable, but not sure if that means you now have a permanently attached EVF.

[Matt Ferraro]

I may be in a small minority, but I would rather have a housed CRT than a LCD monitor for most applications. I find a CRT easier to focus and judge exposure. Just my two.

[Pawel Achtel]

I think the reason why you don't see the red LCD is because there is simply no advantage given the restrictions of the LEMO cable that would come out of the housing adn into the LCD.


Not sure what restrictions of LEMO connectors you are referring to. It is my understanding that the monitor in Deep Red is the Red LCD (5"). I would certainly see it as an advantage if the Pro 7" LCD was available too. I am sure the monitor housing would not be much different than for the 5", just slightly larger.

Other questions I have:


Can the housing accept lens filters and how?
What is the cost of additional extension tubes allowing other lens, say MP14, UP8R, Macro, etc...?

[Johnny Friday]

My mistake after looking at the specs Gates does use the red LCD. However i "think" it is standard def out to the monitor. The Lemo on the red connectors are some crazy bulk of shielded wires that makes is extremely difficult to reproduce for a bulkhead fitting and not many folks that do that work out there....at least at a price that's affordable.

[GATES]

Greetings all,

The monitor encloses the RED 5.6" monitor. Both 7" and 5.6" are the same resolution (1024x600), so there is no is no advantage other than size. The LCD - Camera connection is unchanged save for a bulkhead connector in between. Yes, that 'crazy bulk of shielded wires' was a challenge.

Filters can be accommodated on the lens.

Port extenders will be ~$600. More for long macro lenses which require a longer extender.

Regarding the EVF we are asking people to try the LCD first. With an adequate shade (and shade extenders if you wish) I believe it will overcome the objections people have when using the LCD topside (they can't see it). We do, however, listen to our customers and will wrap a shell around the EVF if so desired.

As for EPIC and Scarlet it is impossible to predict compatibility without details on what they actually look like. That said, the ports, lens drives, motor zoom and many other details in DEEP RED will carry forward to future digital cinema housing designs.

J-

[Pawel Achtel]

J, I agree with your comment about the EVF - I don't find them practical underwater except for maybe tripod macro work. However, for the same reasons I find the 7" better than the 5" - simply easier to see the detail on a larger screen. But, the 7" would come at an extra bulk, so there are pros and cons of using larger LCD.

Is the monitor housing available separately? I imagine it would be compelling accessory for many existing housings (Aquavideo, etc..).


Filters can be accommodated on the lens.
Unfortunately not. Most cine lenses do not have front filter threads, specially ultra-wide.

[Michael Hastings]

Is the monitor housing available separately? I imagine it would be compelling accessory for many existing housings (Aquavideo, etc..).


I actually talked to John at the DEMA show about this. If he is willing it would be pretty easy to use with our housings, we have an external monitor case for the RED LCD but two differences - 1) a little larger and not as slick looking. and 2) The LCD cable is an uncut actual RED cable (we did add shrink tube and "armor" sleeving to the in water portion to protect it) with special compression seals for sealing against the cable with a removable o-ring sealed plate that attaches to the side of the housing on what we call the LCD port with four 8-32 screws. To remove the LCD you have to remove the four screws and replace it with a blank coverplate. A two minute job but not as quick as just unplugging.

The reason we did it that way was that Jarred (last summer?) told me that they had a lot of problems just getting the signals to work reliably with the normal lemo connectors on the longer cables, so were not supporting any third party cables or modified or extended cables and if we cut the cable it was a potential warranty voider. Since the 2 foot cable made things a little tight we requested a longer cable and Jarred got us some prototype 6 footers and then later came out with the 6 and 10 foot cables in the store. Since by then we had figured out how to waterproof it reasonably without cutting, we have stuck with that. And I haven't heard anything (but will ask) regarding whether it would still be a warranty problem if we were to use cut or third party cables. But either way, the waterproof connectors are tough to make (and more importantly to make reliable) for these very compact multiconductor digital cables so they tend to be very expensive (we all use pretty much the same 2 or 3 u/w connector companies) so you could probably buy 2 or three of the RED cables for the cost of the "u/wconnectorized" versions.



Unfortunately not. Most cine lenses do not have front filter threads, specially ultra-wide.

In this case - the RED 18-50, which is the only currently supported lens on the deep red according to the specs I have seen, I don't think that's true. I believe the RED lens has a 72mm (77?) thread.

BTW it has been strongly suggested by a number of people (and I would concur) that the RED 18-50 is a "cine-housed" Sigma 18-50mm f/2.8 EX DC Macro which has the same threads.

If you are wondering, look at the close focus specs of the sigma:

Sigma 18-50 F2.8 Minimum Focusing Distance 20cm/7.9".

****
RED 18-50
Maximum f Stop f/2.8
Close Focus from Lens Front 1.73 inches
Length from Front of Lens to Image Plane 6.16 inches
1.73 +6.16=7.89"
****

It would be extremely unlikely that the two would have those exact same specs and NOT be related. And then maybe go purchase a sigma from b&H for $375 and examine the front and see if you aren't convinced.

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/lenses_all_details.asp?id=3320&navigator=6

http://www.popphoto.com/cameralenses/4118/lens-test-sigma-18-50mm-f28-ex-dc-macro.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/463428-REG/Sigma_581101_18_50mm_f_2_8_EX_DC.html

This is nothing against the RED or sigma lens - it is an excellent lens and the price for the "cine-ized" RED is very good. (I am a century/schneider dealer and if you look at their PL mount rehoused SLR lenses in this range they go for about $15K - and that's for much older designed lenses. The sigma was designed in the last few years and specifically for digital sensors.

The point (besides the obvious price difference) is 1) Now that birger is shipping, if you want that range the Sigma is a very viable option - with excellent focus and iris control without gears - which means you can also easily use other lenses like the Canon 10-22, Tokina 11-16, Canon 60mm, 100mm and 180mm Macros etc. - switching without the need for any gear changes - which would be impossible with a gear system. (And if you are mad at Birger, the Alesniak smart mount should be out soon.)

About half of the 20 or so housings we have delivered were set up to be able to use the RED 18-50 (sometimes with others like the Arri 12, 8R, 14mm, etc.) and some good results were obtained but 18mm really isn't close to as wide as you normally would like to be - remember that 18mm is equivalent to 28.8 mm on an 35mm SLR yet 14, 15, or 16mm lenses are the standard for most high level u/w 35mm photography - with a 20mm being the poor man's u/w wide angle.

Typically on a RED you would want at least a 14mm and would like to get down to the 12 or 10mm range (even for clear, Caribbean type water) to be equivalent to what we have been using in the underwater video world over the past 20 years or so which would be at least 90 to 110 degrees diagonal (Even on inexpensive systems).

RED 4K is (diagonal)
70 degrees at 18mm
84 degrees at 14mm
93 degrees at 12mm
103 degrees at 10mm
115 degrees at 8mm

This is sort of a problem for any geared system as the Cine lenses that we want to use - i.e. the Arri 8R, 10, 12, and to some extent 14mm - are drastically different in physical size and gear position than the more "normal" range 20 to 100mm cine lenses which were typically designed to be the same length and have the gears in the same place for easy lens switching.

[Amund Lie]

Gates:

Does the design of the battery and disk bracket system allow the camera to be taken fairly quickly out of the housing?

I often find that I need to shoot some topside footage right before or after I dive, but getting a camera in and out of an underwater housing is not usually a rapid undertaking. Does the Deep Red allow me to unmount the camera with the battery and drive still attached and shoot dry?

Amund

[Tony Covell]

For No reason, other than its interesting. SCUBACAM have just produced their first RED houseing. They do have a website.
Tony Covell.

[Costelloe Michael]

Hey Tony,

Just had a word with them, 4 meters max. so not quite in the same arena as others, but useful for some applications I suppose.

Mike C

[Joe Holley]

This is sort of a problem for any geared system as the Cine lenses that we want to use - i.e. the Arri 8R, 10, 12, and to some extent 14mm - are drastically different in physical size and gear position than the more "normal" range 20 to 100mm cine lenses which were typically designed to be the same length and have the gears in the same place for easy lens switching.

This is one of the great things about the Gates housing. The gearing system has been designed (quite nicely) to fit any lens. You can see the gears pretty well in this hi-res image. http://www.marinevisions.com/_/i/g/deepred/deep-red-with%20port.jpg

[GATES]

The process for removing the camera from the housing is:

* Remove the port / port extender
* Release the lens gear drives
* Remove the rear shell
* Disconnect the GPIO, LCD and any other connections (audio, HD-SDI, etc)
* Remove two side mount screws and one thumbscrew securing the camera
* Remove the camera

The camera can indeed be used topside withe the top mounted battery/drive bracket. This bracket incorporates the RED Cradle components, so it will familiar to any user. And no, you need not disassemble your RED Cradle. DEEP RED comes with all the necessary bits.

J-

[Michael Hastings]

This is one of the great things about the Gates housing. The gearing system has been designed (quite nicely) to fit any lens.

JF while I understand your enthusiasm for the Gates housing, my two points were primarily that because the REAL underwater lenses are those in the 8 to 14mm range and have substantially different gear position than the normal lenses it will require some significant readjustment and that probably WON'T BE a snap process (otherwise I suspect there would be immediate support for other lenses than the RED 18-50 which is not even a GOOD starting focal length - 28MM 35ff equivalent - for UW work much less an IDEAL one.) We have incorporated nice gearing into our housing for the Arri8r which has some flexibility in positioning, and another customer is working on a gearing system with more positioning flexibility.

However, I would be willing to stipulate that the DeepRED will have somewhat more flexible gearing than what we have done (not because we have seen it yet, but I have seen John at GATES' work - and saw the DeepRED at DEMA in October - and I know he is very creative with very high engineering standards so I am sure that was a high priority. BTW The waterproof joystick actuator is a work of art - but I have a comment on maybe a more cost-effective alternative that I'll save for later.)

However, that is working on the presumption that you are using mechanical gears. I have said all along that even if you need to use cine lenses which would normally be due to a client demand since cine lenses don't have any real advantage for U/W (except maybe the superfast, superexpensive masterprime T1.3 14mm), using mechanical gears is kind of a step back into the seventies and that motors were the way to go. While Heden motors and such are expensive - about $2200+ per motor

http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=10932&cat=0&page=1

they are not that much more than we have to charge for gearing - and even a full set of Hedens plus our housing would be many about 10K less than a Deepred AND you would own a kickass $6-10K lens motor system for regular use. I have attached a picture of Heden motors being used in one of our housings. Sebastian in Germany had a one day commercial shoot but wasn't sure he wanted to go whole hog on a new housing, so I sold him the 2nd prototype pvc one that we made in December 2007. He got the housing on Friday for the shoot on Tuesday, so all of the work you see was done by him over a weekend. You can see that he left some adjustment on the motor mounts for back and forth movement to accommodate different lenses and given more time to design it, I am sure that type of rig could accommodate more adjustment.

The reason we haven't done more of this is most don't have those gears (Sebastian already owned the Hedens) and many of the purchasers have been video crossovers so wouldn't have needed motors. (And quite frankly when I quoted $2k per gear for a gear setup, most decided against it.)

So they have either been waiting for the Viewfactor Impero/Inclino motor setup for the RED which are only $1295 per motor,

http://www.viewfactor.net/khxc/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=Inclino1

or the Birger Canon EOS mount - WHICH WAS REALLY THE MAIN POINT OF THE POST - that the smart mount/SLR lens combination is by far the easiest to use and most flexible solution in terms of multiple lens capability and with some additional capabilities that are soon to be announced this will be even more true - EVEN SETTING ASIDE THE PHENOMENAL FINANCIAL BENEFITS.

So the bottom line is: 1) we can do mechanical gears - expect to spend about $2K per gear. 2) We can do motors - expect to spend $6-8K and

3) We can do birger - expect to spend about $5500 TOTAL!!! for mount+lens controller+underwater lens controller (iris/focus) AND PLUS a kickass F2.8 11-16mm superwide zoom, PLUS an f2.8 100mm macro, and PLUS an F2.8 17-55mm zoom with image stabilization for normal shooting - all of which could be instantly changed with no gearing adjustment needed.

ALL of those lenses are AT LEAST AS GOOD OPTICALLY as the RED 18-50 and quite probably slightly better (I believe the sigma is optically this $375 lens:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/463428-REG/Sigma_581101_18_50mm_f_2_8_EX_DC.html

The 17-55 gives an even better zoom range PLUS optical image stabilization which NO cine lens has and is based on the very latest digital friendly L-type optical components and construction. (Canon has stated that they don't give any EF-S lenses the "L" designation to avoid confusion, i.e. that ALL L-series will work on full frame SLRs. The EF-S lenses only cover the smaller EOS40D and RED S35 sized digital sensors).

Food for thought.?

-------------

PS. For those that haven't been around for awhile: The price for the AquaVideo RED aluminum housing with standard power, trigger, white balance/user/focus assist buttons plus two controls for friction focus and friction iris; mountplate for camera, reddrive, red battery plate, and LCD mounted at rear and visible through the back plate; interchangeable port system with standard 6" acrylic dome; is $8,599.

Optional controls for friction zoom, rear lcd controls and user buttons, etc. are $125 each. Mechanical gears $2K per gear set.
Optional 8" acrylic dome is $429, Extended length Macro/long lens port $429, 1/2" extension rings, $109, and 8" AR coated glass dome frontplate $2399 (simple frontplate swap - no need for removal of other port from std. frontplate.)

All of these items have been shipping for many months.

CLICK ON THE PHOTOS TO ENLARGE.

The photos show the 1) Heden motors in housing 2) Gears we used in the 3) housings from almost a year ago, with the housing on the left using those gears and the one on the right using simple friction controls for the 18-50 and 4) A housing I put together for myself (although didn't get to use since a customer bought it out from under me.) with 2 controls on top and 3 side controls to hit the iris buttons on the birger because until now we didn't have control knobs. The two top controls allowed shifting focus and zoom on the Canon 10-22 but those same control positions plus one at the spot with the red dot would also (with slightly different shafts) control the RED 18-50 iris/focus/zoom using friction to move the rings. The lights are our SuperNova 350s (9800 lumens per head by the way and sold by us since the Mid-80s) with lithium ion battery and special lightweight battery case to keep us near neutral. The funny looking grey things are bouyancy blocks which make the head neutral. The mounting was a kind of a rig, I am working on a slicker mountplate for the battery cases with a quick release to simplify getting in and out of water - although it isn't that bad as is.

[Joe Shemesh]

JF while I understand your enthusiasm for the Gates housing, my two points were primarily that because the REAL underwater lenses are those in the 8 to 14mm range and have substantially different gear position than the normal lenses it will require some significant readjustment and that probably WON'T BE a snap process (otherwise I suspect there would be immediate support for other lenses than the RED 18-50 which is not even a GOOD starting focal length - 28MM 35ff equivalent - for UW work much less an IDEAL one.) We have incorporated nice gearing into our housing for the Arri8r which has some flexibility in positioning, and another customer is working on a gearing system with more positioning flexibility.

However, I would be willing to stipulate that the DeepRED will have somewhat more flexible gearing than what we have done (not because we have seen it yet, but I have seen John at GATES' work - and saw the DeepRED at DEMA in October - and I know he is very creative with very high engineering standards so I am sure that was a high priority. BTW The waterproof joystick actuator is a work of art - but I have a comment on maybe a more cost-effective alternative that I'll save for later.)

However, that is working on the presumption that you are using mechanical gears. I have said all along that even if you need to use cine lenses which would normally be due to a client demand since cine lenses don't have any real advantage for U/W (except maybe the superfast, superexpensive masterprime T1.3 14mm), using mechanical gears is kind of a step back into the seventies and that motors were the way to go. While Heden motors and such are expensive - about $2200+ per motor

http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=10932&cat=0&page=1

they are not that much more than we have to charge for gearing - and even a full set of Hedens plus our housing would be many about 10K less than a Deepred AND you would own a kickass $6-10K lens motor system for regular use. I have attached a picture of Heden motors being used in one of our housings. Sebastian in Germany had a one day commercial shoot but wasn't sure he wanted to go whole hog on a new housing, so I sold him the 2nd prototype pvc one that we made in December 2007. He got the housing on Friday for the shoot on Tuesday, so all of the work you see was done by him over a weekend. You can see that he left some adjustment on the motor mounts for back and forth movement to accommodate different lenses and given more time to design it, I am sure that type of rig could accommodate more adjustment.

The reason we haven't done more of this is most don't have those gears (Sebastian already owned the Hedens) and many of the purchasers have been video crossovers so wouldn't have needed motors. (And quite frankly when I quoted $2k per gear for a gear setup, most decided against it.)

So they have either been waiting for the Viewfactor Impero/Inclino motor setup for the RED which are only $1295 per motor,

http://www.viewfactor.net/khxc/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=catshow&ref=Inclino1

or the Birger Canon EOS mount - WHICH WAS REALLY THE MAIN POINT OF THE POST - that the smart mount/SLR lens combination is by far the easiest to use and most flexible solution in terms of multiple lens capability and with some additional capabilities that are soon to be announced this will be even more true - EVEN SETTING ASIDE THE PHENOMENAL FINANCIAL BENEFITS.

So the bottom line is: 1) we can do mechanical gears - expect to spend about $2K per gear. 2) We can do motors - expect to spend $6-8K and

3) We can do birger - expect to spend about $5500 TOTAL!!! for mount+lens controller+underwater lens controller (iris/focus) AND PLUS a kickass F2.8 11-16mm superwide zoom, PLUS an f2.8 100mm macro, and PLUS an F2.8 17-55mm zoom with image stabilization for normal shooting - all of which could be instantly changed with no gearing adjustment needed.

ALL of those lenses are AT LEAST AS GOOD OPTICALLY as the RED 18-50 and quite probably slightly better (I believe the sigma is optically this $375 lens:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/463428-REG/Sigma_581101_18_50mm_f_2_8_EX_DC.html

The 17-55 gives an even better zoom range PLUS optical image stabilization which NO cine lens has and is based on the very latest digital friendly L-type optical components and construction. (Canon has stated that they don't give any EF-S lenses the "L" designation to avoid confusion, i.e. that ALL L-series will work on full frame SLRs. The EF-S lenses only cover the smaller EOS40D and RED S35 sized digital sensors).

Food for thought.?

-------------

PS. For those that haven't been around for awhile: The price for the AquaVideo RED aluminum housing with standard power, trigger, white balance/user/focus assist buttons plus two controls for friction focus and friction iris; mountplate for camera, reddrive, red battery plate, and LCD mounted at rear and visible through the back plate; interchangeable port system with standard 6" acrylic dome; is $8,599.

Optional controls for friction zoom, rear lcd controls and user buttons, etc. are $125 each. Mechanical gears $2K per gear set.
Optional 8" acrylic dome is $429, Extended length Macro/long lens port $429, 1/2" extension rings, $109, and 8" AR coated glass dome frontplate $2399 (simple frontplate swap - no need for removal of other port from std. frontplate.)

All of these items have been shipping for many months.

CLICK ON THE PHOTOS TO ENLARGE.

The photos show the 1) Heden motors in housing 2) Gears we used in the 3) housings from almost a year ago, with the housing on the left using those gears and the one on the right using simple friction controls for the 18-50 and 4) A housing I put together for myself (although didn't get to use since a customer bought it out from under me.) with 2 controls on top and 3 side controls to hit the iris buttons on the birger because until now we didn't have control knobs. The two top controls allowed shifting focus and zoom on the Canon 10-22 but those same control positions plus one at the spot with the red dot would also (with slightly different shafts) control the RED 18-50 iris/focus/zoom using friction to move the rings. The lights are our SuperNova 350s (9800 lumens per head by the way and sold by us since the Mid-80s) with lithium ion battery and special lightweight battery case to keep us near neutral. The funny looking grey things are bouyancy blocks which make the head neutral. The mounting was a kind of a rig, I am working on a slicker mountplate for the battery cases with a quick release to simplify getting in and out of water - although it isn't that bad as is.

Hi Michael,
It's incredibly frustrating to try and get your attention this way, but since you don't seem interested in replying to repeated e-mails and phone messages (even though as a customer we paid you US10,000 back in early December 2008) this will hopefully serve as a warning to others. Your total disregard to repeated inquiries regarding delivery of our purchase is nothing short of astounding. We sent you monies in good faith - now get your
F?????G act together and at least have the balls to get in touch with us and let us know what the hell is going on with our delivery!!!
Since it's inception, REDUSER has helped bring together a tight community of like-minded professionals who's dealings are always in good faith, don't take it upon yourself to destroy this reputation!!!

Joe Shemesh

[GATES]

Pawel,

To answer your earlier question: yes, we will sell just the monitor housing separately. It will require that we make the mating bulkhead cable assembly as well. You'll get mounting instructions/tap sizes too.

Contact me by PM for other details.

John

[Michael Hastings]

Hi Michael,
It's incredibly frustrating to try and get your attention this way, but since you don't seem interested in replying to repeated e-mails and phone messages (even though as a customer we paid you US10,000 back in early December 2008) this will hopefully serve as a warning to others. Your total disregard to repeated inquiries regarding delivery of our purchase is nothing short of astounding. We sent you monies in good faith - now get your
F?????G act together and at least have the balls to get in touch with us and let us know what the hell is going on with our delivery!!!
Since it's inception, REDUSER has helped bring together a tight community of like-minded professionals who's dealings are always in good faith, don't take it upon yourself to destroy this reputation!!!

Joe Shemesh

Joe:

My apologies for the delays and lack of responsiveness, there is no good excuse - this should have happened quite a while ago and I will get this taken care of in the next few days.

Not an excuse, well, maybe it is, but by way of explanation, since this is now on a public forum:
1) I got married November 13th so with the moving/integration of two families things have been even a little more disorganized than usual,

2) You changed the order from the proforma invoice that I had sent, from an aluminum housing to a PVC housing and because you added the glass dome option the dollar amounts came out about the same on the wire transfer and I didn't even realize the change for a little while. I had several aluminum units nearly ready at the time we originally spoke and have actually delivered those a while ago to a couple of other customers that ordered about the same time, but no PVC units were on hand (other than the used one I sold Sebastian).

3) I had decided to go to the thicker wall PVC that is about the same thickness as the aluminum so I had to order that since I didn't have a long enough piece on hand for the RED housing.

4) Then it turned out I needed to make a slightly different set of mountplates because the ID is just slightly different than the aluminum and the height wasn't right for the standard lens position and, while it was fairly easy to setup and put a slightly different hole position on the normal frontplate because it is cut from just one side out of a large disc that already has the threaded hole in it so it is just setting a different center position in the program, I can't do that on the glass dome plate because it is a very complicated setup and has to be machined from both sides, so I have to make the mountplates fit the frontplate rather than the reverse. None of this is huge stuff, but it takes some time and setups on the CNC, etc. and wanting to make multiple parts for more of the PVC units to be somewhat efficient, AND there were a couple times where I said "let me take a day or two to get this other guys aluminum housing finished and out the door and then I can focus"

5) Production work gets fairly disjointed during the week because I also have to spend a lot of time on the phone with sales calls, or questions, daily Birger mount updates, etc. (and I honestly was on the phone with another overseas call yesterday when you called). Usually I can take the weekends to catch up and actually get things done, but with the recent marriage I have been trying to be a little more of the family man on the weekend.

6) As you know Birger mounts are actually starting to ship, but the knob situation is still delayed and also the new standard knob setup isn't that great for our underwater stuff so I decided to go ahead and make our own control circuit board (I made a brief pre-announcement about this on the birger thread a couple days ago.) And I decided to make this a crash priority for two reasons: first because a lot of current owners plus most of the new ones (including you Joe I believe) are pretty desperate for the Birger mount to work in their housings and second: because a long time friend that is an excellent hardware/software guy that has made boards for me in the past just got downsized out his job and I wanted to seize the opportunity to get this done while he was available. We are finished with my part and it goes to the circuit board manufacturer next week, so I can refocus on getting housings done.

Small, semi-custom manufacturing is quite a juggling act and I dropped the ball on your order. But I promise your housing is now the priority, and apologize for the neglect.

I'm a little bummed that this became public, but maybe it is for the best. My service and support has been very up and down over the last year (really the last couple years with the divorce/life changes). And things have been compounded with the RED housings because besides the normal changes that happen early in the development, there were several things we expected to happen quicker that altered various orders (in particular the birger mount which for a year was shipping "next week") and made things more difficult.

So, to Joe and to my other customers, I apologize but also assure you that I'm not out to screw anybody and things usually get worked out reasonably. My life is settling down quite a bit and I really expect things to run a lot smoother in the future.

And we just finished another run of our SuperNova lampheads (which I had put off for over a year) which make a really nice compact, highpowered (250 and 350 watt) package for the RED housing as well.

The AquaVideo RED housing design as it is now has come together pretty well - compact size with a great deal of flexibility. Whether you choose PL, nikon, or Canon EF lens solutions I don't think you will find anything that performs substantially better at any price, and then when you consider price I think the choice is a no-brainer. We have delivered about 20 units over the past, year so it hasn't been all bad, and I will work hard to make sure that as we move forward delivery is more consistent.

[catfeesh]

Hello everyone,
The past couple years, I've been dropping in from time to time reading some of the posts. There is an immense amount of information here on the forums, and I'm trying to get through it all. Some of it is way over my head, but I'm trying to learn.

I would like to get into underwater filming, especially shallow water macro. I think video is a powerful tool for learning and want to get people stoked about the living world.

I do not have experience shooting video of red quality, but I come from an animation background, and have experience in the film making process, editing, and underwater photography.
The technicalities of the red one itself is somewhat overwhelming to me, let alone going underwater so I'm hoping to get some advice.

My questions...

1)What major technical hurdles, or equipment expenses can a beginner expect to encounter attempting to go underwater (with a red one)?

2)Other than the Gates, and AquaVideo housing, are there any other manufacturers out there at this time?

3)Do you have any lens, or gear recommendations for shooting macro?

4)Is anyone kicking themselves for getting into this field of work?

Thanks,
-Richard

[Pawel Achtel]

Welcome to the forum, Richard.

For macro I would be looking at Scarlet 2/3", not a large sensor camera. The reason is higher DOF. Sharpness is never a problem with macro. Even some standard definition shots can look very attractive. Even with 2/3" sensor, the DOF is ofeten less then a millimiter!!!



1)What major technical hurdles, or equipment expenses can a beginner expect to encounter attempting to go underwater (with a red one)?

For me and most others the equipment cost combined with the cost of filming underwater is a major hurdle. Filming topside is expensive and requires hundreds of accessories: batteris, lenses, matte boxes, filters, cables, follow focus, fluid head, legs, dolly, ...the list goes on. Now, on top of that list, there is a cost of underwater accessories: diving equipment, housing, ports, lighting, grips, ...it can easily add up to a solid 6-figure expense.

Unfortunately, you can not charge premium for underwater material, so these are the costs you may never recoup.



2)Other than the Gates, and AquaVideo housing, are there any other manufacturers out there at this time?


Those are the main choices. I have a custom housing, which I like most because it has been made exactly how I wanted. But, the cost was substantial - again, something you will never recoup.



3)Do you have any lens, or gear recommendations for shooting macro?


I use servos, which allow you for rear control and precision. All you need is a 5k pot on the housing. If you are interested in a precion servo/controller system at a cost of around $1k per motor (including controller) send me an email at pawel.achtel (at) 24x7.com.au. I also designed an external controller box made out of titanium, but the cost of just the controller box is about the same as the entire AquaVideo housing.



4)Is anyone kicking themselves for getting into this field of work?

You should probably ask, who doesn't :) I got lazy answering this one and tend to refer to an article (very well) written by my friend Howard:

http://www.howardhall.com/stories/breakingin.html

[catfeesh]

Pawel, thanks for the tech advice, It's good to hear from a pro on the inside.
Howards article is just what I needed - a good reality check, I have lots to consider.
The rear control servos sound very interesting...I'll keep those in mind. I've had bad experiences with motion noise from my front end control fumbling.

[Joe Shemesh]

Thanks for your post Michael and apologies for my outburst. I had reached the end of my tether, more importantly, ran out of excuses to give some of my long-standing clients - as to why I wasn't getting their work done.
Just wanting to move on, receive our housing and turn out some beautiful RED pictures.

joe

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks for your post Michael and apologies for my outburst. I had reached the end of my tether, more importantly, ran out of excuses to give some of my long-standing clients - as to why I wasn't getting their work done.
Just wanting to move on, receive our housing and turn out some beautiful RED pictures.

joe

Thanks for your understanding, I owe you a BIG beer whenever we meet.

BTW for those of you that might be (understandably) a bit concerned about ordering, I did ship 3 of the aluminum housings that month (so I wasn't just sitting on my hands) that were farther along. We had been selling mostly aluminums at that point. It had been several months since selling a PVC unit and the combination of PVC with the Glass dome (which is BTW a very smart economic choice. The PVC housing with glass dome is about the same as an aluminum with acrylic port) - where the glass dome frontplate can't be easily altered for a different lens height - threw me for a bit of a loop.

PS circuit boards for the simple birger mount iris/focus/etc. controller should be in early next week. Probably a week or two for testing but it is pretty simple so don't expect many issues.

Joe gets one for half price...

Picture shows basic layout in a small waterproof case. Waterproof version will probably use toggle switches on a cable so can be placed near your hand. I have to figure out those little push buttons for the other dedicated function buttons. A cable goes into the housing to attach to the birger mount. Board could also go inside the housing with the switch cables on through holes, but it would be harder to implement dedicated function switches but they might not be that important. But it might save a couple hundred dollars.

[jim kozmik]

Jim Kozmik here from Canada..Mike I have pushed the ICEBERG from my driveway here in Canada and will be diving/shooting in 5 weeks..I have researched the RedOnes options,all lenses ..the movie industry needs and our Ocean shooting needs for our future Tv shows...we have a local motion picture/HD rental company in Toronto that I will be marketing the Red One housing through as well now..SO...I am just about ready to order a housing from you...we have over 60 RED One cameras in Toronto.at rental houses and privately owned....
A couple of quick questions before I phone you..Does the housing come in RED aluim at all..
100 ft of SDI rear spare back cable to surface..how much...can I send raw data to a surface digital hardrive..

Is the Canon 10-22mm lense and 6 inch dome ready to ship..
Do I also need the the 8 inch dome for larger cine lenses like the 14 zeiss..I have 2 old threaded F3 Aquatica domes in storage as well.

If I ordered first week of March... March 3rd say...could the housing be ready for me to come buy and pickup.and visit Frasier in the keys to play with complete unit..

thats it for today....the wife approves this message and purchase.kozzzzzz

[jim kozmik]

Addon..sorry forgot about date...
Mike I can come down to Florida first week of May if possible.kozz

[Michael Hastings]

Jim:

No problem regarding having your housing ready to pick up first week of may, and yes the six inch dome - as well as the 8" glass dome are in stock on the shelf. I think there may be some confusion as to why the frontplate was an issue for Joe Shemesh's housing which I will explain in my next post which also will make it a little clearer what the deal is with our frontplate which actually provides a great deal of flexibility.

Our threaded port is for the one Aquatica used for the N8008 housing and is a (very) slightly smaller thread than they used for the F3 housing. We could make a frontplate to accommodate those domes but it would be about $300 extra for the custom plate. My concern would be whether you can get extension rings and such if needed.

With the standard dome you can use the 14mm and older t2.1 12mm but you may need an extension ring or two if we make the housing the standard way which allows you to use things like the 10-22 Canon on the birger mount. We have a bunch of the extension rings and macro ports on hand for the standard size plus about 20 housings out there already with that thread so it is more feasible for us to make more when we run out.

The raw data only comes out the esata drive part and I think the spec only allows a few feet.

HD-SDI is no problem. 100 feet of the highest quality Belden 3 GHZ stranded RG6 cable which we then have coated with a heavy wall neoprene is $3.50/ft so $350 plus the backplate with seal which is $175.00.


Here's a direct link to the .pdf brochure for the AquaVideo RED1 housing:
http://www.aquavideo.com/pdfs/RED1HousingBrochure309.pdf

[Michael Hastings]

Per Jim Kozmik's post, I can see there may be some confusion on the ports and in particular why the port system caused a delay on Joe Shemesh's housing.

In fact the ports and all of the frontplates were done and in stock (see the picture below. The problem was that Joe ordered the PVC housing with the GLASS dome - a configuration that we had not made before and which required a change to the plate inside the housing that the camera mountplate attaches to to get the proper height.

Since one of the REDUSER's in Australia was also asking how he could accommodate our glass dome to his housing that use the same thread as our STANDARD frontplate, let me explain what is going on with the plates.

First the standard frontplate. If you look at the picture the plates on the left are the standard plates. The stack at the upper left is the plates before they are anodized, and on the upper right is a stack of two plates after anodizing and the top has the six inch dome screwed into it. The large plate on the bottom left is the raw 5/8" thick plate with the threaded hole in it for the port thread. From there, making the plate is simply a matter of bolting the plate to the table and running the program. With the PVC housing (now with a thicker wall tube about the same as the aluminum), if we used the original housing plate made for the thinner tube the lens would sit too high in the dome. Not much of a problem with the standard plate because it would just be a matter of raising the center of the CNC program and running the plate. This method also lets us use the same dome mount and raw plate to make frontplates for other housings like an HVX200, EX1 or whatever.

The glass dome (the two plates on the upper right - one is the plate with the dome it, the other is a stack of six with the top one turned over so you can see the undercuts for the latch clip) is a different beast - because of the small size of the tube it requires those undercuts which means the part has to have one side machined and them flipped over to do the other side which is a much fussier setup. So on the new PVC housings it mean making a new internal mount plate to give the right height, which required some significant CNC setup changes and trial and error to get it right.

The large plate below the glass dome plates is a glass plate as well but it can't be easily used on the normal RED housing because there would be no way to clamp it on easily without the undercuts. We made a half dozen or so to use on other housings - that either would be larger or have the lens/dome closer to the center of the tube.

Although we have stock threaded ports for macro/long lenses, and 6 and 8 inch domes you should also notice another feature of the standard plate: the o-ring groove and tapped holes around the threaded hole. We put that there because once things are set up on the CNC it is pretty easy to run at the same time and it gives a lot of future flexibility. First we can easily make a flat port that attaches there for some of the shorter SLR macro lenses - like the canon 60mm or some of the normal primes if you were doing surface or pool shots. It also means if you have some funky application where you need a special port you would have an easy way of attaching and sealing it since you already have the attachment points and seal.

Here's a direct link to the .pdf brochure for the AquaVideo RED1 housing:
http://www.aquavideo.com/pdfs/RED1HousingBrochure309.pdf

[Johnny Friday]

Wanted to let the community know that John at Gates was kind enough to loan me his new prototype Deep Red housing for a shoot I'll be working on with a very tight team in Palau for a nat geo segment "migrations".

...the team will consist of Mark Thorpe, Adam Ravetch, Stewart Mayer--who has a very nice Moko rig that he'll be bringing, and myself johnny friday

We'll be in Micronesia for ten days where we'll have the chance to shoot in many different configurations and situations. We'll be using a variety of lenses such as:
Red: 18-50
Zeiss: 8R & 14
Zeiss 60 macro
Nikon 105 micro

With the Gates gearing solution--very slick---we should have access to all of the gearing on the above lenses. I'll post more as we move along....we're packing tomorrow and doing some in-water tests so you can expect an update at the end of the day.

for any updates and posts you can go to this web blog:

http://groups.google.com/group/deep-red-gates

[Pawel Achtel]

We'll be using a variety of lenses such as:
Red: 18-50
Zeiss: 8R & 14
...


How are you going to adjust for different entrance pupil position in respect to optical nodal point for the dome when using different lenses?

[Mark Thorpe]

How are you going to adjust for different entrance pupil position in respect to optical nodal point for the dome when using different lenses?I had my appendix removed when I was 12 so that shouldn't be a problem.......:)

Oops, I shouldn't be here
:ph34r:

[Johnny Friday]

How are you going to adjust for different entrance pupil position in respect to optical nodal point for the dome when using different lenses?

18-50 and 14mm & 8r are nearly same in physical dimensions and we'll be discovering exactly that. Don't really expect any problems with the 18-50, 14 & 8r...the questionable lens is the nikon 105.

[GATES]

How are you going to adjust for different entrance pupil position in respect to optical nodal point for the dome when using different lenses?


The short answer is: he isn't. Port extenders are not ready yet for the anything but 18-50, but soon. Johnny wanted to try anyway. It will be a good test to see how much EP shift can be tolerated by the lenses.

FYI I have EP locations for Arri lenses (ultra primes, master primes) Cooke S4's and expect soon Anginieux. I'm measuring some Nikon this weekend.

Thanks to Johnny, Mark, Adam and Stewart. There's nothing like a good 'shakedown' to find things that need improvement.

John

[jim kozmik]

Thanks again Mike,I will call you next week to finalize my new Aquavideo housing order..we will go with the 6 inch dome for the 18-50 and the birger Canon 10-50 mount ,,I will have to order this Berger mount as well I guest...plus 1 100 ft of surface feed cable and second rear plate for this as well for the film industry shoots...kozzzz

[Mark Thorpe]

The short answer is: he isn't. Port extenders are not ready yet for the anything but 18-50, but soon. Johnny wanted to try anyway. It will be a good test to see how much EP shift can be tolerated by the lenses.

FYI I have EP locations for Arri lenses (ultra primes, master primes) Cooke S4's and expect soon Anginieux. I'm measuring some Nikon this weekend.

Thanks to Johnny, Mark, Adam and Stewart. There's nothing like a good 'shakedown' to find things that need improvement.

JohnLooking forward to getting my hands on the product John. Just gearing up to welcome the rest of the crew into Palau, I've been here for two days already getting geared up for the project. Am sure we will hit the sweet spots with the plan and equipment we have set up.

Watch this space.
Mark

[Amund Lie]

Could someone please explain a little more about the principle of entrance pupil position and how it effects image quality in relation to various domes, and how to test for the ideal position?
(please excuse me if I have missed a previous post about this)

thanks,
Amund

[jim kozmik]

I no what a Sony 900 HD camera and Amphibico housing leases for a day,week and month but have not considered what a Aquavideo.red one kit would go for a day, week and month rental at Hd rental house..anybody out their have some quotes on their units.thank kozzzzz

[Michael Hastings]

I no what a Sony 900 HD camera and Amphibico housing leases for a day,week and month but have not considered what a Aquavideo.red one kit would go for a day, week and month rental at Hd rental house..anybody out their have some quotes on their units.thank kozzzzz

My standard quote has been $550/day $1900/week

[jim kozmik]

Thanks for your quote..they seem to be higher on the west coast..I will phone you for my Aquavideo order on Monday March 9th.thanks again.....kozzzzz

[Johnny Friday]

Quick update:
Deep Red has been performing admirably. In fact some great shots using the 18-50 (which I never expected).....using it as a macro lens and number 2 diopter. The 14mm zeiss has been the every day lens though for establishing shots and basic scenic shots.

It's really nice to have full control of all of our lenses with the adjustable gearing. Some minor setbacks have been camera overheating inside of the housing---in 88f water.

A host of minor issues, but all and all Deep Red has been a workhorse on our shoot.

we're camped out on the island and I'm only back for supplies this morning...so I'll post more on reduser and the google group with photos and our opinions.

[Michael Hastings]

Here's a shot of the circuit board for controlling focus and iris (and future zoom) on the the birger Canon EOS mount. We also expect to be able to work with the viewfactor impero motors once Curt at Viewfactor gets a chance to help us with commands.

In Birger mode it draws power from the mount. It can also be powered externally for other uses.

It can also control Sony and Canon LANC cameras via a very small secondary circuit.

In the works is simultaneous control of two cameras/lens mounts for 3D work.

If RED will open up communication and receive control commands we could also pretty easily setup camera functions like frame rates, shutter angles and the like. Any help the bubble blowers could provide in convincing RED that this a useful and needed capability would help.

Firmware and software work this week and hopefully testing next week.

[Doug Huberman]

Here are two VERY interesting postings I found on Wet Pixel!

#1

The UNDERWATER Red One Boot Camp is May 4-10, 2009 and it is being hosted by Pro Dive (Fort Lauderdale)... They are bringing in Red Ones, housings and instructors from both the US and Latin America. If anyone has their own Red One, but does not own a housing, with enough lead time they believe they can arrange for one at a modest rental price.

Additionally, Red One users who are not divers can come out the week or two prior and get certified. They can even arrange for the course to be a bit more rigorous than the usual recreational certification (they call it the Diamond Open Water Certification). I personally would recommend getting certified and doing at least another 1/2 dozen dives before taking the Bootcamp (It is important to have your bouyancy control nailed!). I checked their charter schedule and it is possible to get 4-6 dives per day 7 days a week.

To get the first announcement and updates go to ProDiveUSA.com and register for the newsletter. I will see you there!

P

#2

Hi all,

Just to let you know that I am currently in Palau on a shoot and that we have four RED One cameras and three housings from different manufacturers. Am shooting for an LA based concern and as such part of our plan was to write up a report on the field experiences with prototype housings from:

Gates
AquaVideo
AquaVideo / Element Technica

The report should be done in a few days as a .pdf so will see about posting that somewhere for readers here.

Cheers,
Mark.



I am new and the only way I found this group was by doing a search for the word "Underwater". How do I get access to and read the bubble blow'n user group threads?

[Michael Hastings]

I am new and the only way I found this group was by doing a search for the word "Underwater". How do I get access to and read the bubble blow'n user group threads?

I think you already joined REDUSER which is the first step. The second step is just to go back to the beginning page and read 1100 or so posts.:biggrin:

[Frazier Nivens]

Here are two VERY interesting postings I found on Wet Pixel!

#1

The UNDERWATER Red One Boot Camp is May 4-10, 2009 and it is being hosted by Pro Dive (Fort Lauderdale)... They are bringing in Red Ones, housings and instructors from both the US and Latin America. If anyone has their own Red One, but does not own a housing, with enough lead time they believe they can arrange for one at a modest rental price.

Additionally, Red One users who are not divers can come out the week or two prior and get certified. They can even arrange for the course to be a bit more rigorous than the usual recreational certification (they call it the Diamond Open Water Certification). I personally would recommend getting certified and doing at least another 1/2 dozen dives before taking the Bootcamp (It is important to have your bouyancy control nailed!). I checked their charter schedule and it is possible to get 4-6 dives per day 7 days a week.

To get the first announcement and updates go to ProDiveUSA.com and register for the newsletter. I will see you there!

P

#2

Hi all,

Just to let you know that I am currently in Palau on a shoot and that we have four RED One cameras and three housings from different manufacturers. Am shooting for an LA based concern and as such part of our plan was to write up a report on the field experiences with prototype housings from:

Gates
AquaVideo
AquaVideo / Element Technica

The report should be done in a few days as a .pdf so will see about posting that somewhere for readers here.

Cheers,
Mark.



I am new and the only way I found this group was by doing a search for the word "Underwater". How do I get access to and read the bubble blow'n user group threads?

Go to Thread Tools and subscribe to this thread, check instant email notification and you'll get an email when it's updated.

Are you in Florida??

Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

[Amund Lie]

Found this over in the lens test section:



Prototype of PL Remounted Tokina 11-16 f2.8, Manual Iris.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/10_1236919197.jpg

The Good News:
The lens is well built, holds focus over it's 1.4x zoom range
very little breathing, very little image shift when racked.
Sharp, Low distortion, good field illumination, good flare resistance.

The Not Exactly Good but not too bad:
The modified Iris change very fast - not much rotation. It would be quite expensive and complicated to fix this. Not really enough space to mark every stop... It's not a big problem for the Red, you can easily get it exactly to the stop you desire.
Nikon Focus direction ( backwards from most other lenses )

It's up at Chez Duclos getting it's gears and then will be anodized black.

It might be possible to make more of them. Price is TBD, still trying to figure it out, should be below $3,250. It could go down substantially with larger quantities.

How much interest is there in this ? It's probably going to be a one shot deal so if you're interested this is the chance.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Doug Huberman]

Just in case anyone is interested in learning to shoot with a Red One underwater, I just found this on Wetpixel... It is an excerpt from the ProDiveUSA.com newsletter. The price is $1,895 and the deposit to hold a slot is $600.



RED ONE is Coming!

BE ONE with RED ONE™
Pro Dive will play host to the World's First RED ONE™ Underwater Video Boot Camp!

This is your chance to get your hands on the latest technology in the video and film industry.

Mark your calendar for May 4 - 10, 2009 and join us for the ultimate Spring season event.

Stay tuned for more details.

[Ken Corben]

The call came in late on a Thursday afternoon from the National Geographic Channel Migrations series team, "You are greenlit for Palau."
Less than 10 days later a crew of 5 departed with 30 cases from LAX including 4 RED ONE cameras and three underwater housings for Jelly Fish Lake.

The assignment, tell the story of the jelly fish migration like never before.

My first call was to the very talented filmmaker Adam Ravetch, Producer/Director of Arctic Tale, to direct this segment followed by a call to Mark Thorpe and John Friday to operate RED ONE 4K underwater.

Our team landed on the lake 3 days after departure and did not leave the island for 10 days and nights...brutal is to kind a word.
Success is also to humble a word for the results this talented team obtained.

The relentless effort of 20 hour days diving day and night will not be soon forgotten by those that endured the challenge. The RED ONE cameras delivered flawlessly.

Everything we built and put into the field was a prototype including the DEEP RED housing from Gates and the custom time lapse housing from SL Cine (Dual brick batteries running three hours of UW time lapse). Everything worked. DEEP RED was a work horse delivering heretofore unseen images of this spectacle. The custom housing from Joe Ortega of SL Cine designed to shoot extended time lapse was also a key player in telling this original story. Our third housing was an Aquavideo housing.

I just want to take a moment and publicly recognize the amazing effort of this talented team. Shooting day and night in 4K including time lapse and most of it underwater is a tall order.

I too am looking forward to the article Mark and Johnny are composing. The evaluation of three RED ONE cameras in three different housings used as tools on a client shoot and essential to the challenge.

The Jelly Fish Lake segment will air in 2010 on the National Geographic Channel's four hour original series MIGRATIONS.

K

Correction- Joe Ortega of SL Cine built the custom time lapse housing for this shoot - not Element Technica.

Pic#1 Cases curbside at LAX
Pic#2 Director Adam Ravetch
Pic#3 L to R - RED Underwater Digital Artists Mark Thorpe, John Friday and Ken Corben
Pc#4 John Friday checking Deep Red pre-dive
Pic#5 Ken Corben remebering to remove the lens cap

[Pawel Achtel]

The call came in late on a Thursday afternoon from the National Geographic Channel Migrations series team, ...

Any u/w footage?

[Michael Hastings]

The call came in late on a Thursday afternoon from the National Geographic Channel Migrations series team, "You are greenlit for Palau."
Less than 10 days later a crew of 5 departed with 30 cases from LAX including 4 RED ONE cameras and three underwater housings for Jelly Fish Lake.

The assignment, tell the story of the jelly fish migration like never before.

My first call was to the very talented filmmaker Adam Ravetch, Producer/Director of Arctic Tale, to direct this segment followed by a call to Mark Thorpe and John Friday to operate RED ONE 4K underwater.

Our team landed on the lake 3 days after departure and did not leave the island for 10 days and nights...brutal is to kind a word.
Success is also to humble a word for the results this talented team obtained.

The relentless effort of 20 hour days diving day and night will not be soon forgotten by those that endured the challenge. The RED ONE cameras delivered flawlessly.

Everything we built and put into the field was a prototype including the DEEP RED housing from Gates and the custom time lapse housing from SL Cine (Dual brick batteries running three hours of UW time lapse). Everything worked. DEEP RED was a work horse delivering heretofore unseen images of this spectacle. The custom housing from Joe Ortega of SL Cine designed to shoot extended time lapse was also a key player in telling this original story. Our third housing was an Aquavideo housing.

I just want to take a moment and publicly recognize the amazing effort of this talented team. Shooting day and night in 4K including time lapse and most of it underwater is a tall order.

I too am looking forward to the article Mark and Johnny are composing. The evaluation of three RED ONE cameras in three different housings used as tools on a client shoot and essential to the challenge.

The Jelly Fish Lake segment will air in 2010 on the National Geographic Channel's four hour original series MIGRATIONS.

K

Correction- Joe Ortega of SL Cine built the custom time lapse housing for this shoot - not Element Technica.

Pic#1 Cases curbside at LAX
Pic#2 Director Adam Ravetch
Pic#3 L to R - RED Underwater Digital Artists Mark Thorpe, John Friday and Ken Corben
Pc#4 John Friday checking Deep Red pre-dive
Pic#5 Ken Corben remebering to remove the lens cap

Sounds like it was a cool shoot. Will be great to see some footage. Also, looks like there were two AquaVideo housings there. I recognize the first two aluminum prototypes we made over a year ago (although that 8r version is a little funky as it got rotated 180 degrees from its original design between the back and forth east coast and west coast gear installation). Speaking of the 8r, will you be in Ft. Lauderdale for the RED Prodive boot camp. I'd love to see some results with that 8r behind the 8" glass dome.

Any chance of some photos of Joe's housing - he seems to be a pretty sharp guy - maybe I can cadge some good design improvements!:biggrin:

[Matt Ferraro]

Joe and Hector make great gear. Here are some photos of a housing they made for a few of us still film shooters out there, although it can easily be modified for a digital back. Not for the RED but a great example of what they can do.

[Michael Hastings]

That's pretty cool, Manfish. What's that optic? - it looks a bit like the port from the Amphibico HDcam housing.

[Matt Ferraro]

Good eye. The funny thing is that it was removed from an Amphibico port on a housing I had rented because it was apparently scratched during the return shipment. I paid for the replacement but had them send the damaged port back to me. When I received the port I spent less than 30 seconds on it with Novus fine scratch remover and the scratch was gone! All in all it worked out pretty good.

Matt

[Michael Hastings]

Good eye. The funny thing is that it was removed from an Amphibico port on a housing I had rented because it was apparently scratched during the return shipment. I paid for the replacement but had them send the damaged port back to me. When I received the port I spent less than 30 seconds on it with Novus fine scratch remover and the scratch was gone! All in all it worked out pretty good.

Matt

The other thing I noticed was the Contax lens. I'm not that familiar with the 645 but have several Contax/Yashica Zeiss lenses that we used with an adapter on our birger EOS mount (as a dumb mount before there was any control other than by computer) and was struck by how good they were. Fairly inexpensive on the used market and as good or better than any Nikon or Canon lens I've seen - by far the best bang for the buck for SLR lenses on the RED.

[Matt Ferraro]

I am only familiar with the Zeiss 645 lenses. They are excellent! If the quality of the 35mm format lenses are comparable I imagine they would be great on the RED. When you were using the Birger as a dumb mount, were you using friction controls or gear rings for iris and focus?

[Mark Thorpe]

The call came in late on a Thursday afternoon from the National Geographic Channel Migrations series team, "You are greenlit for Palau."
Less than 10 days later a crew of 5 departed with 30 cases from LAX including 4 RED ONE cameras and three underwater housings for Jelly Fish Lake.

The assignment, tell the story of the jelly fish migration like never before.

My first call was to the very talented filmmaker Adam Ravetch, Producer/Director of Arctic Tale, to direct this segment followed by a call to Mark Thorpe and John Friday to operate RED ONE 4K underwater.

Our team landed on the lake 3 days after departure and did not leave the island for 10 days and nights...brutal is to kind a word.
Success is also to humble a word for the results this talented team obtained.

The relentless effort of 20 hour days diving day and night will not be soon forgotten by those that endured the challenge. The RED ONE cameras delivered flawlessly.

Everything we built and put into the field was a prototype including the DEEP RED housing from Gates and the custom time lapse housing from SL Cine (Dual brick batteries running three hours of UW time lapse). Everything worked. DEEP RED was a work horse delivering heretofore unseen images of this spectacle. The custom housing from Joe Ortega of SL Cine designed to shoot extended time lapse was also a key player in telling this original story. Our third housing was an Aquavideo housing.

I just want to take a moment and publicly recognize the amazing effort of this talented team. Shooting day and night in 4K including time lapse and most of it underwater is a tall order.

I too am looking forward to the article Mark and Johnny are composing. The evaluation of three RED ONE cameras in three different housings used as tools on a client shoot and essential to the challenge.

The Jelly Fish Lake segment will air in 2010 on the National Geographic Channel's four hour original series MIGRATIONS.

K

Correction- Joe Ortega of SL Cine built the custom time lapse housing for this shoot - not Element Technica.

Just wanted to say what a huge honor it was to have the responsibilities of Evergreen Films Inc's reputation planted firmly on my shoulders as part of this team.

The days were long, the schedule brutal. The amazing team spirit won the day through on many occasions. It was not all peace and love but these things never are. The fact is that we had a group of guys willing to go to extraordinary lengths to get what we wanted to be associated with, or as close as we could get to it at least, perfection.

Did we achieve our goals? Wait until Migrations hits the screens. You won't be disappointed.

Ohh and by the way, just in case you were not sure of where or what Palau is, I took these on my last day on the islands. A one hour ride with a buddy who works as a pilot giving Helicopter Tours of the place........and what a place it is.

This is the 70 Islands Marine Preserve. 100% free of people and their activities, heavily policed and completely natural, the way it should be.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo235/CamDiver/70-Islands.jpg

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

I am only familiar with the Zeiss 645 lenses. They are excellent! If the quality of the 35mm format lenses are comparable I imagine they would be great on the RED. When you were using the Birger as a dumb mount, were you using friction controls or gear rings for iris and focus?

We were using the c/y lenses for topside work. A feature was shot last March and they were very happy, and I shot the space shuttle STS122 with the 300mm.

However, I have a customer using the eos birger mount underwater with a Nikon 14mm (which has an iris ring) with friction control for focus and kind of a gearish adapter ring on the iris with a friction control. The great thing about the eos mount is it has the shortest flange focal distance (44mm) so most other lenses - Nikon, C/Y, Leica, M42, etc. will work with simple adapters.

I've also used the older arri 12mm pl lens with simple friction controls to shoot the sharks at Stuart Cove's which worked very well.

[Matt Ferraro]

We were using the c/y lenses for topside work. A feature was shot last March and they were very happy, and I shot the space shuttle STS122 with the 300mm.

However, I have a customer using the eos birger mount underwater with a Nikon 14mm (which has an iris ring) with friction control for focus and kind of a gearish adapter ring on the iris with a friction control. The great thing about the eos mount is it has the shortest flange focal distance (44mm) so most other lenses - Nikon, C/Y, Leica, M42, etc. will work with simple adapters.

I've also used the older arri 12mm pl lens with simple friction controls to shoot the sharks at Stuart Cove's which worked very well.

The one of the things I liked about the HD Amphibicam was how easy it was to shoot. The controls for the focus and iris are very fine and the zoom range allows you to go from very wide to a close up. Is there a way of setting up a RED housing that offers similar functionality and ease of use?

[Johnny Friday]

here's a recent pic of Red working in Palau on a nat geo segment....that's Mr. Thorpe behind the large dome port; then the secret bubble--i can say nothing about that machine--only the guy running it was genius; next you see deep red on the job and an outstanding job it did for us. Hands down the "deep red" performed beyond expectations and helped to produce dramatic images that should set a new pace for the future of u/w shooting---thanks to John at Gates for allowing us to shake it down for two weeks in Palau....

[Johnny Friday]

I recently had some lenses refurbished in Los Angeles with Stuart at Focus Optics.....so big deal. But what i saw on the shelf may be of interest to many underwater shooters.

What I saw was a large aluminum lens that just caught my eye. I asked Stuart and he proceeded to tell me it is the Nikon 14-24 that he is re-housing in a PL mount and with gearing to control the iris. It was a nice looking lens and felt as nice in my hands. I think (not sure) that it's a 2.8 lens. Stuart told me that he compared it to the Optimo 15-40 at 15mm and the Nikon was sharper and performed every bit as well as the Optimo.

He's not finished with the lens yet and expects to have this one completed in about one or two months (fully anodized). I asked him price and he expects about $10.5k Not cheap, but for a cine zoom lens comparable it's a bargain. I think he said he's going to take orders and has about ten so far. It's an order only lens so if your interested it's Focus Optics. I asked if he's post pics, but he does not want to do so until it's completed and anodized.

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi,

I just checked out the Nikon 12-24mm at the B & H website and it costs about $790.00. Converting it to a PL mount with gear rings takes the price up to $10,500.00. That is some price increase!

Is there something very difficult about the conversion job I don't understand?

Thanks


George
Coral Sea TV

[Steve Gibby]

I've used Stuart (Focus Optics) before for lens service - with good results. I've also used Duclos - with very good results.

The Nikon 12-24 is f4, not 2.8. It covers APS-C sensors. It has some barrel distortion at 12mm, much better at 14mm, and very good at 15mm. Its a good lens, but to me the f4 for underwater would be the deal killer.

The Tokina 11-16 is f2.8, covers APS-C, and is very crisp throughout, with very little distortion. It has no iris ring, so I've been using the Tokina 11-16 with the Underdahl Nikon DX mount on RED. The footage results above water have been excellent. Haven't had it in the water. I would guess that for housing use something could be rigged to turn the small brass iris knob that controls iris on the Underdahl mount. Add in snap-on focus and iris ring gears and it should work good in a housing. Nice and wide!

If you can get by with 14mm, the Nikon 14-24 is really the best 35mm stills wide zoom on the market. It is super crisp throughout its zoom range. It's f2.8, covers full frame 35 (on Scarlet & Epic it will rock), is rectilinear, close focus to .9 ft, and has 144 degree FOV in FF (90 degree FOV on R1). It has no focus ring, so you'd have to use it with the Underdahl Nikon Mount, but again I would guess something could be rigged for housing use to twist the Underdahl brass knob to control iris - then add in snap-on gears for focus and iris.

[Michael Hastings]

I think Gibby meant the 11-16 has no iris ring.

The Canon EF version of the 11-16 works fine on the birger mount, with both electronic focus and iris. I haven't checked if it also gives the lens data, although I suspect it does. The Canon 10-22 also works fine and you get lens data.

For those that haven't kept up with the birger thread, the Birger mount is now shipping in volume and one of the features added recently was the ability to plug in the i/data cable to the birger mount. The birger mount translates the lens data into cooke i format and sends it to the camera - it works the same way as the RED 18-50 - but for virtually any EF lens.

You can also use Nikon lenses on the ef mount in manual mode with simple mechanical adapters. Several of my customers have been using the Nikon 14mm - which is an excellent lens and does have an iris ring - on their birger mount while waiting for the impero knob and/or our new lens control board. (BTW I just received the first production version of our control board so will be testing later this week when I get the updated version of the mount and the proper cable from Birger.)

Also, for you PL mount guys, I am thinking of selling my Arri Zeiss 10mm T2.1. Up until the 8r was introduced a year or two ago the 10 was considered the premier ultrawide for underwater and some think it still is, as some think it is the "sweet spot" focal length and it because of its larger front element it is t2.1 instead of T2.8 like the 8r. Although not an ultra prime, my understanding is that while most of the lenses were updated significantly when they came out with the ultraprime line the 10mm was essentially unchanged .

I was quoting $10K but hasn't moved in this market so new price is $8800.00. The lens was purchased from Gregory Mirand. It has a slight blemish on the front coating which doesn't show in footage, but if you need it I can get a new front element for it for $1100.

While I have been keeping a PL lens over the last year for rental customers since it may not be reasonable to expect them to switch their mounts, at this point I am planning to have them either rent a 12mm (which is easy to set up in the housing) or whatever or simply make a sweetheart package deal with both housing and camera.

At some point you may want to really start considering the economics of PL lenses as it relates to underwater. In my mind there are only 3 PL lenses that MIGHT have optical advantages over the current crop of SLR lenses. 1) the master prime 14mm which at t1.3 is the fastest extreme wide angle and has the latest, greatest optical design. 2) The UP 8r since it is the widest available rectilinear. 3) possibly the 10mm t2.1 for its pure sharpness plus speed and reasonable cost on the used market. (typically 10-12K) The 14 and 8r are not found much on the used market - $25-$30k new.

Beyond those, the current SLR lenses are optically as good or better than the 12mm, 14mm and other standards, ultraprimes, etc. that are out there on the used/rental market. If you are concerned about having to switch mounts back and forth for your more normal focal lengths for abovewater shooting where the mechanics of cine lenses are important, you have to start considering that it isn't much more expensive to simply own a second camera body than it is to own one or two ultrawide pl lenses. When you start adding in the cost of mechanical gears or focus and iris motors - or the additional cost of a housing like gates that has gearing - it is about the same or even cheaper to own that second body.

[Johnny Friday]

My bad---I meant Nikon 14-24....not 12-24.

[Johnny Friday]

The big problem with using the 14-24 now with the Underhaul mount is having something turn that brass knob. But I have to assume that the cine conversion is more than just adding an iris ring. Seems rather intricate when I had a look at the lens and a lot of machining went into what i was looking at. It was NOT the same lens when modified. So don't ask me where that extra $$ comes in. BUT i can tell you this. It's not an easy job from what I saw. But you might ask someone that knows about conversions. I thought they were a simple few hundred bucks to go from Nikon to PL mount---i was WRONG!.

[Steve Gibby]

Mike,

Good catch Mike - I typed in my post that the 11-16 has no focus ring - I obviously meant to type iris ring (I've changed that typo).

For guys who just want all-manual control of non-iris ring lenses, I think someone will soon devise a simple, but effective way to to twist the brass iris knob on the Underdahl mount through a housing.

I own one of the Nikon 14mm primes you mentioned. While it is a nice lens, and the images from it are good, it won't take screw-on filters, but rather uses the gel filters in a a small receptacle on the back of the lens. This limits the type of filters which can be used. It is a rectilinear lens, and covers FF35 so it is future-proofed for FFScarlet and FF Epic.

Image wise, when I side-by RED 4k shots from my Nikon 14 prime, and my Tokina 11-16 zoom, with it set to 14mm, the Tokina beats the Nikon image in my opinion. So why not spend $550 for the Tokina, plus $300 for the Underdahl mount, and have a better image than spending $1,400 for the Nikon 14mm? I bought the Nikon 14mm several months ago, but just a month ago bought the 11-16. The 11-16 is impressively sharp - even wide open - and throughout its zoom range. I'm about ready to sell my Nikon 14. It seldom gets used now...

I don't dive - I shoot water sports in the splash zone - and some very shallow, freedive sequences. I anticipate the 11-16 being real good for that, with its sharpness and wide FOV. Now if someone will just make a FF35 f2.8 11-16mm zoom, with the same crispness and contrast, I'd definitely snap it up for wide angle use on FF35 Scarlet and FF35 Epic. Obviously a FF version 11-16mm would be larger and much more expensive - but I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat - and I'd hazard a guess I wouldn't be the only one around here that would!

[Michael Hastings]

Gibby:

It shouldn't be too hard to put a flex shaft on the iris knob of the underdahl nikon mount. That seems like something that would be useful even for topside use. Once that is done, attaching it to a housing control would be pretty easy.

I haven't had any requests for using the non-iris lenses in the housing so haven't played with that. Most people have been using the Nikon as an interim solution waiting for Birger.

My main thrust was really to get people thinking about SLR lenses now that we do have control. Besides the control and economic advantages, we also have a huge size advantage where the SLR lenses are typically 72 or 77mm filter thread so much easier to do than on the large 8,10,12,14mm PL lenses where filtration in a housing is very difficult.

Although the RED has a great capability to shift the colors back closer to "normal" it does have limits and still could use some help with underwater correction filters.

[Johnny Friday]

Here are a few pics of the Gates "Deep Red" in action in Palau

*first is putting a vacume on the housing checking for any leaks

*second is Mark Thorpe checking LCD for a night dive

*Third: a photo of open diving in the ocean

*4th: Open diving in ocean

*last: open diving on reef at blue corner palau

[Mark Thorpe]

Looking good John.

OT: Paper needs to be sent out to all corporate peeps before publishing.

Look forward to getting that.

Cheers,
Mark.

[FocusOptics]

I recently had some lenses refurbished in Los Angeles with Stuart at Focus Optics.....so big deal. But what i saw on the shelf may be of interest to many underwater shooters.

What I saw was a large aluminum lens that just caught my eye. I asked Stuart and he proceeded to tell me it is the Nikon 14-24 that he is re-housing in a PL mount and with gearing to control the iris. It was a nice looking lens and felt as nice in my hands. I think (not sure) that it's a 2.8 lens. Stuart told me that he compared it to the Optimo 15-40 at 15mm and the Nikon was sharper and performed every bit as well as the Optimo.

He's not finished with the lens yet and expects to have this one completed in about one or two months (fully anodized). I asked him price and he expects about $10.5k Not cheap, but for a cine zoom lens comparable it's a bargain. I think he said he's going to take orders and has about ten so far. It's an order only lens so if your interested it's Focus Optics. I asked if he's post pics, but he does not want to do so until it's completed and anodized.


Focus Optics is proud to announce and introduce our new wide short zoom,
"Ruby" 14mm-24mm T 2.8

Please, come see us at the NAB, to experience this great lens. Our Booth number: C8831

Attached are some pictures of the unfinished and unengraved new short zoom. We will post new pictures sometime next week, when the engraving and anodizing is complete.

Looking forward to seeing you all at the NAB!
Stuart

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi,

After about 8 months of development and manufacture our RED ONE housing is finished! It is made from aluminium with interchangeable dome & flat ports and a top mounted 8” HD monitor. We were initially going to use the Viewfactor Follow Focus units to control iris, focus and zoom functions but ended up building our own servos. The housing works with PL mount lenses including the RED 18-50mm and most Arri primes. I may modify soon to also accept Nikon/Canon glass.

There is a pressure testing facility and 4 separate leak alarms. It should be good to 60m not that I would go that deep with it. It weights about 34kg with the camera inside. I will be taking it in the water over the next week and will post some pics of it U/W and some footage. My calculations are that it should be slightly positive in the water, I hope I got the maths right!

I know some of you have made U/W housings and know what is involved. It is very exciting to see it all finally come together.

I reckon its design looks a little retro 1950’s Russian style. So it’s fitting that it’s for the Revolutionary RED camera. Now I need a name for it. Gates have Deep Red. We were thinking along the lines of Olga or Sputnik. Any suggestions?

Kind Regards


George Evatt
www.coralseatv.com
Sydney, Australia

[Pawel Achtel]

Hi,

After about 8 months of development and manufacture our RED ONE housing is finished! It is made from aluminium with interchangeable dome & flat ports and a top mounted 8” HD monitor. We were initially going to use the Viewfactor Follow Focus units to control iris, focus and zoom functions but ended up building our own servos. The housing works with PL mount lenses including the RED 18-50mm and most Arri primes. I may modify soon to also accept Nikon/Canon glass.

There is a pressure testing facility and 4 separate leak alarms. It should be good to 60m not that I would go that deep with it. It weights about 34kg with the camera inside. I will be taking it in the water over the next week and will post some pics of it U/W and some footage. My calculations are that it should be slightly positive in the water, I hope I got the maths right!

I know some of you have made U/W housings and know what is involved. It is very exciting to see it all finally come together.

I reckon its design looks a little retro 1950’s Russian style. So it’s fitting that it’s for the Revolutionary RED camera. Now I need a name for it. Gates have Deep Red. We were thinking along the lines of Olga or Sputnik. Any suggestions?

Kind Regards


George Evatt
www.coralseatv.com
Sydney, Australia



Congratulations, George! Nice work. Definately call it Olga. All housings are a bitch to carry. Look forward to see it in flesh. We should go for a dive as soon as my new rebreather is delivered.

[Doug Huberman]

Complete info is now available for the Underwater Red One Bootcamp May 4th through 10th. The link is http://www.prodiveusa.com/red_one_boot_camp.html

Second only to the Red Ones and Gates Housings, the best part is the instructors being brought in. In addition to award winning documentary directors like Grant Graves (Sink Faze & the Aquanauts) there will be:

Ric Frazier: Award-winning Director Ric Frazier is one of the world’s most skilled, experienced and versatile photographers specializing in the aquatic realm. He has redefined the art of underwater photography, shooting everything from people, to sets, to ocean life. His client list is extensive, ranging from Nike and O’Neil, to magazines including Men’s Fitness, Esquire, GQ, and National Geographic. He has directed commercials for The Pier at Caesars, the Sci-Fi Channel and Diesel Jeans, and among numerous other awards, was named Best Music Video Director at the 2007 Elevate Film Festival.

Luke Inman: Originally from England, Luke is an experienced cameraman and fixer. He has worked with the BBC, Lucas Films, Castle Rock Entertainment, The Monterey Bay Aquarium, National Geographic, Discovery and Animal Planet. Luke has functioned as both a camera assistant and safety diver on productions such as Star Wars Phantom Menace, My Giant, and numerous commercials and short films. Luke is a PADI Course Director and maintains Instructor-Trainer certifications with several technical agencies, including a Commercial Diving Qualification from the UK’s Health & Safety Executive.

These guys really know both cinematography and scuba!

Supposedly your non diving friends can come a week early and get a special intensive OW certification...

Doug

[Cam Crowley]

Hi,

After about 8 months of development and manufacture our RED ONE housing is finished! It is made from aluminium with interchangeable dome & flat ports and a top mounted 8” HD monitor. We were initially going to use the Viewfactor Follow Focus units to control iris, focus and zoom functions but ended up building our own servos. The housing works with PL mount lenses including the RED 18-50mm and most Arri primes. I may modify soon to also accept Nikon/Canon glass.

There is a pressure testing facility and 4 separate leak alarms. It should be good to 60m not that I would go that deep with it. It weights about 34kg with the camera inside. I will be taking it in the water over the next week and will post some pics of it U/W and some footage. My calculations are that it should be slightly positive in the water, I hope I got the maths right!

I know some of you have made U/W housings and know what is involved. It is very exciting to see it all finally come together.

I reckon its design looks a little retro 1950’s Russian style. So it’s fitting that it’s for the Revolutionary RED camera. Now I need a name for it. Gates have Deep Red. We were thinking along the lines of Olga or Sputnik. Any suggestions?

Kind Regards


George Evatt
www.coralseatv.com
Sydney, Australia



Looks awesome George - let me know when you're venturing up north so I can finally get some GBR 4K!. You should post some pics of the splash bag here too - great for surface work.

Cam

[CoralSeaTV]

Thanks Pawel and Cam for the kind words about the housing. Yes, I am really keen to get it wet.

Here's a Youtube clip of a splashbag I have had made up. It was designed for 2/3" type HD cameras like the F900 & Varicam etc, but also fits the RED. Be sure to click the HD icon in youtube to watch the hi res version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q0-o3CF4l8

[Doug Huberman]

Underwater photography with the Red One is a greatly needed forum... But is seems that we have too many threads running on top of each other and it is difficult to follow. Is there any way to get the underwater bubble blowers thread split into seperate permanent threads? I would suggest starting with 6 and seeing where it goes from there:

1. Equipment
2. Technique/Tricks of the Trade
3. Travel/Live video postings
4. Education/Training Opportunities
5. Marketplace (employment, equipment rental/sale)
6. Misc.

What do you think? If you agree, how do we get this done?

Doug

[Rudi Herbert]

Underwater photography with the Red One is a greatly needed forum... But is seems that we have too many threads running on top of each other and it is difficult to follow. Is there any way to get the underwater bubble blowers thread split into seperate permanent threads? I would suggest starting with 6 and seeing where it goes from there:

1. Equipment
2. Technique/Tricks of the Trade
3. Travel/Live video postings
4. Education/Training Opportunities
5. Marketplace (employment, equipment rental/sale)
6. Misc.

What do you think? If you agree, how do we get this done?

Doug

I agree with this, let's submit this request to Jarred and see what he thinks. Problem is, if they acquiesce to this request, then the climbers, the skydivers, the travel shooters, the Christian film makers, etc, etc, will want a dedicated subforum for them as well. This might become a problem for RED...

[Pawel Achtel]

I agree with this, let's submit this request to Jarred and see what he thinks. Problem is, if they acquiesce to this request, then the climbers, the skydivers, the travel shooters, the Christian film makers, etc, etc, will want a dedicated subforum for them as well. This might become a problem for RED...

I don't think we have nearly 1200 replies in a Christian film makers thread. I don't even think we have one. In my opinion, two new forums are needed:


Underwater
Aerials


Climbers and sky divers can decide which one suits them best depending whether they have wet or dry pants after the shoot.

Jarred, over to you.

BTW, like your new selection of smilies. Big improvement :thumbsup:

[Mark Thorpe]

Good plan.

I dont think this thread is going anywhere soon so it could be a good idea.

Cheers,
mark.

[Tom Lowe]

Underwater deserves its own forum or sub-forum. It's a significant enough and special enough craft to warrant it, IMHO.

[Amund Lie]

Some detailed pictures of the Element Technica underwater housing:

http://buzz.offhwd.com/2008/09/swimming-with-red/

[Luke Inman]

When do you need the housing?

[Gisle K. Sverdrup]

New lens to challenge the canon 10-22 for uw shooters. Nikon announces a new lens: 10-24mm f3.5/4.5 DX:
http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Camera-Lenses/2181/AF-S-DX-Zoom-NIKKOR-10-24mm-f%252F3.5-4.5G-ED.html

It will be interesting to see how this one holds up against others, such as the canon 10-22 an tokina 10-17...

[CoralSeaTV]

Re: Nikon 10-24mm,

Is this lens f3.5 to f4.5? If so, how would you use it effectively underwater with a RED, or even topside as you would have to constantly ND it to get the light hitting the sensor to be between f3.5 and 4.5. Or am I misunderstanding something about still digital lenses?

Thanks

George

[Pawel Achtel]

Re: Nikon 10-24mm,

Is this lens f3.5 to f4.5? If so, how would you use it effectively underwater with a RED, or even topside as you would have to constantly ND it to get the light hitting the sensor to be between f3.5 and 4.5. Or am I misunderstanding something about still digital lenses?

Thanks

George

George, the maximum aperture is f/3.5 at 24mm and f/4.5 at 10mm and in between for other focal lengths. The minimum aperture goes to f/22. However, you still need a special mount to adjust the aperture of this lens because it is not a manual lens.

[theinfantry]

"Brooklyn" prepares to go under water for The All American Rejects new video.

[CoralSeaTV]

Thanks Pawel,

That clears that up for me.

G

[Mark Thorpe]

That long awaited housing appraisal from our three housing shoot recently in Palau will be made public soon. Just got the final work back from my buds so will get on that asap. Flying back through Indo tomorrow so day on planes. Hopefully by end of week.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Roberto Lequeux]

We have an under water sequence, under ice, for a feature shooting next winter. I wonder if there will be underwater enclosures for DSMC by then? Even if it was a beta and we had minimal control it would be ok. Of course it wouldn't be much of a problem at all to shoot those with R1, but I wonder if anyone knows of companies ready to jump on that as soon as the first few are out and hopefully ready for action or beta by Jan 2010.

[Jason Sturgis]

Hi Robert, I would keep an eye on the Aquavideo housings. I believe that they had one of the first housings out for the R1 and would probably be poised to make something up for the new line. Just my two cents and I am sure there are a lot of bubble blowers that can comment as well. Hope that helps.

[Pawel Achtel]

We have an under water sequence, under ice, for a feature shooting next winter. I wonder if there will be underwater enclosures for DSMC by then? Even if it was a beta and we had minimal control it would be ok. Of course it wouldn't be much of a problem at all to shoot those with R1, but I wonder if anyone knows of companies ready to jump on that as soon as the first few are out and hopefully ready for action or beta by Jan 2010.

No problem. Ready when you are :)

[Michael Hastings]

We have an under water sequence, under ice, for a feature shooting next winter. I wonder if there will be underwater enclosures for DSMC by then? Even if it was a beta and we had minimal control it would be ok. Of course it wouldn't be much of a problem at all to shoot those with R1, but I wonder if anyone knows of companies ready to jump on that as soon as the first few are out and hopefully ready for action or beta by Jan 2010.


Hi Robert, I would keep an eye on the Aquavideo housings. I believe that they had one of the first housings out for the R1 and would probably be poised to make something up for the new line.

What he said.

I have looked pretty closely at the EPIC and Scarlet configurations and think it will be somewhate easier to work with - all of the components are a bit more compact and tightly integrated. The lower power consumption and compact battery module will help a lot and the firm announcement of a RED remote will provide added control capabilities with minimal heartaches. Since many of the components like the LCD and EVFs will be reusable, and we already have the glass domes, Birger EF mount control, lens gears and such the lead time won't be long.

We will be providing our REDONE housing owners a reasonable upgrade/tradein deal as well.

[Frazier Nivens]

What he said.

I have looked pretty closely at the EPIC and Scarlet configurations and think it will be somewhate easier to work with - all of the components are a bit more compact and tightly integrated. The lower power consumption and compact battery module will help a lot and the firm announcement of a RED remote will provide added control capabilities with minimal heartaches. Since many of the components like the LCD and EVFs will be reusable, and we already have the glass domes, Birger EF mount control, lens gears and such the lead time won't be long.

We will be providing our REDONE housing owners a reasonable upgrade/tradein deal as well.

Michael,

Any word on your controller??

Frazier

[Michael Hastings]

Michael,

Any word on your controller??

Frazier

As you know I sent it off to Erik to test a few weeks ago and it took him until right before NAB to try it out. It worked but my designer had used the published documentation which stated a 19K baud rate (the speed at which it sends data) and Erik had not updated the docs to the new rate of 115K. Erik made it work by reprogramming one of the ports on a mount to the old rate but we need it changed on the actual board to ship it out to endusers. Pretty simple - just a different crystal and some firmware changes. I will bug my friend Kelly today see if it is done yet.

[Frazier Nivens]

As you know I sent it off to Erik to test a few weeks ago and it took him until right before NAB to try it out. It worked but my designer had used the published documentation which stated a 19K baud rate (the speed at which it sends data) and Erik had not updated the docs to the new rate of 115K. Erik made it work by reprogramming one of the ports on a mount to the old rate but we need it changed on the actual board to ship it out to endusers. Pretty simple - just a different crystal and some firmware changes. I will bug my friend Kelly today see if it is done yet.

Sounds great, thanks and will get with you as soon as I can.

Been a busy week here, my wife's birthday was yesterday and I've had some things that I've had to attend to.

Best,
Frazier

[Roberto Lequeux]

Michael, it was a pleasure talking with you. Thanks for explaining everything and taking the time. As we get closer I'll hopefully be giving you a ring so we can try to be among some of the first working with a DSMC under water.

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks Roberto. Look forward to working with you on your project.

Frazier: Kelly said he made the board change for the timing crystal and wrote the new code (baud rate will now be field programmable) - just needs to do his internal tests and will ship me some this weekend.

[John Howarth]

Does anyone have a Gates underwater housing for Red available for hire? We are based in UK, but will pay for shipping worldwide. Required next week - starting 12th May for 5-6 days.

Please email me direct: jon@bluetuna.tv

Thanks,

Jon

[Matthew Duclos]

Hello bubble blowers...
I had a nice little chat with Ken Corben while at NAB and he informed me that your community (mad respect for what you guys do) could use a nice wide angle PL lens.
Just thought I would drop my name in the hat. ;)
Feel free to ask any questions.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3648/3491895368_213445d559.jpg

[David Morgan]

I posted this in jobs...but it's very relevant here too:

Hey all,

Chaos Films is shooting a trailer for a pitch, and we need someone who know how to use the R1 underwater, and has the gear to do so. We're shooting in the Austin area in a few weeks. If interested, please email with your contact info and rates. We've got about 3 weeks to set this up, and the shoot is two days.

Thanks,

[Ken Corben]

Hello bubble blowers...
I had a nice little chat with Ken Corben while at NAB and he informed me that your community (mad respect for what you guys do) could use a nice wide angle PL lens.
Just thought I would drop my name in the hat. ;)
Feel free to ask any questions.

Held the prototype in my hands at NAB.
Very nice.
Duclos is now accepting $1K deposits with a 4-6 week delivery.
Fitted a prototype lens to my housing with Matt Uhry looks like a work horse lens for UW. Looked promising on the test bench. Hope to test this puppy underwater soon.

[Del Mar]

Hi everybody, my name is Erik, long time listener, first time caller... I'm chiming in today, because some friends and I are making a Underwater Housing for the RED! I'm sure some folks here will be interested to know, and to share in our excitement. But first, I want to say a big thank you to everyone on here who contributed to such an amazing thread... I've probably read through it a couple times since its inception. A lot of great commentary, information and discussion.

As for the housing, it is more of a splash housing; composite construction for a supremely lightweight and rigid structure. This is well suited when shots need to be both above and below the waterline... Pretty exciting stuff, as we've been collectively dreaming about it for what must be close to a couple of years now.

For the time being, I most likely won't be quite as active in the conversation as much as... say Michael H. for instance... (hi Mike). But I will check in from time to time to keep everyone posted on the progress and to answer any questions. In the mean time you can contact me through my profile.

THANK YOU!

ps I'll work on getting some pics up!

[Johnny Friday]

Well, day 14 here on St. Lawrence Island trying to shoot walrus with Mr. A.R and it's tough. Was told to expect 1 day in 7 to 10 for shooting. Sounds odd, but it's the truth. Day 1 was absolutely beautiful. We've now been cabin bound for many many days and now i'm thrilled to cook cakes.

Some pics of these magnificent beasts to follow:

[Mark Thorpe]

"What we do in life........"

Looking good there John, I expected you to be in the water though!! Never recognized you with clothes on, love the gloves (heard about them, never worn them).

Big UP to A.R, hope he got his shower bag back from Palau.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Are these the gloves?:

http://www.mountainhardwear.com/Product.aspx?top=1626&prod=3146&cat=1686&viewAll=False

If so, I wonder if anyone tried these:

http://www.mountainhardwear.com/Product.aspx?top=1626&prod=3144&cat=1686&viewAll=False

[Mark Thorpe]

Roberto,
I was taking the piss out of John because he is in a lovely cold part of the country yet we were working in the tropics together about a month ago. Ohhh, and because I am now at home in sunny Bali looking at images of him surrounded by icebergs !!!

John, Nikon mount I see?

Cheers,
Mark.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I am serious about the gloves though. They look snug enough for most buttons. And they are advertised as great liners for heavier gloves. I shot a little test in northern Minnesota last February and lets just say that gloves can be more important than the camera on the wrong day. :)

[Amund Lie]

I hate off-topic debates, but;

I swear by Sealskinz: http://www.sealskinz.com/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/KJ751||~@c~@b|0|user|1,0,0,1|44|

Can even use them for diving

[Mark Thorpe]

With only one thread we are stuck with every topic under the sun spread through these illustriously wet pages.

Never use gloves personally. Warm water diver most of the time.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I hate off-topic debates, but;

I swear by Sealskinz: http://www.sealskinz.com/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/KJ751||~@c~@b|0|user|1,0,0,1|44|

Can even use them for diving

Especially on such a long thread and no underwater section. I started a thread: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30162

Well, best of all they are free! :) If you would I'd love to know the cost. Perhaps you can post it over in the gloves thread.

[Amund Lie]

Gotta try diving in Norway then Mark :)
My warm-blooded friend who before only went diving in tropical waters all over the world, had a real eye-opener diving last summer off the west coast of Norway with me. What I called mediocre dives was for him the best he ever had.

So, despite donning around 100 - 120 pounds of gear and freezing one's butt off, diving here can't be beat. IMO. Not for wussies though :)

[Amund Lie]

Has anyone gotten hold of or tried the new Poseidon Mark VI rebreather? I have an early reservation, but no package waiting at the door yet.

Reviews are better than expected, and apparently they are in the final stages of testing a version for depths down to 150 meters. But I'd like to hear some feedback from users/testers on this forum.

[Mark Thorpe]

Gotta try diving in Norway then Mark :)
My warm-blooded friend who before only went diving in tropical waters all over the world, had a real eye-opener diving last summer off the west coast of Norway with me. What I called mediocre dives was for him the best he ever had.

So, despite donning around 100 - 120 pounds of gear and freezing one's butt off, diving here can't be beat. IMO. Not for wussies though :)Have put a ring around hat point. What macro critters you go there?

[Mark Thorpe]

Well guys I have something for you to read.

John Friday and myself, amongst others, were recently on a shoot in Palau for a pretty ambitious documentary segment due out next year as part of the 'Migrations' series from National Geographic.

At our disposal we had three housing options to work with. It was suggested by our executive producer that we make our experience a public one by sharing our findings with those who take an active interest in underwater applications. Well here we have the final report for you.

This is in no way to be seen as promotional materials for any one of the manufacturers mentioned. It is purely a documentation of our experiences with the housings during the shoot. Being in the fortunate position to play with three of the housings currently available translates that it is only fitting we share these views and experiences with you all.

The .pdf can be found here (http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=30327&st=0&gopid=211755&#entry211755)

Its a link to a link. Some small mp4 sequences of the housings being handled underwater whilst diving the reefs of Palau can also be found here (http://www.oceanwonders.org/RED_Palau).

Hope all is taken in the non biased way this was put together.
Cheers,
mark.

[Mark Thorpe]

Uhh, double post was not intended.

Can a Mod remove one.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Tom Lowe]

Quick question for you underwater guys:

What do you all think about the Canon 5D2 as an underwater 1080p camera? Are there any affordable housings that would work well for the 5D2?

[Johnny Friday]

Not sure what gloves those are. That's Adam shooting and his gloves. But what i do know is that we all prefer to use basic work gloves....they are thinsulate leather outer and 100 gram gloves. But only good to about 25f or so.

Yeah, using the nikon mount lately and we're finding that we like a handful of lenses. Not every lens on the nikon mount is crisp nor holds focus while pulling from one subject to the other---we get image shifting much of the time. However, there are some remarkably nice Nikon lenses like the 20mm prime and 600mm prime to note.

Will be trying more Nikon lenses in the future.

[Frazier Nivens]

Quick question for you underwater guys:

What do you all think about the Canon 5D2 as an underwater 1080p camera? Are there any affordable housings that would work well for the 5D2?

Shot with the Canon 5D2 and it's auto everything, no real control over what's happening and it also changes ISO on the fly. The image looks good but for me, this feature is a nice addition to a great camera but for shooting video best stick with video cameras. Any kind of long lens on the camera use a tripod, hard to hold steady for video, smaller body, really needs to be steady, any movement is shown.

I think that SeaCam's housing will work for it. Contact Stephen Frink in Key Largo for the housing. Great housing also.

Best,
Frazier Nivens, Ocean Imaging

[Pawel Achtel]

Well guys I have something for you to read...
Hope all is taken in the non biased way this was put together.
Cheers,
mark.

Mark,

Considering you had three housings and cameras, did you manage to get a single picture we could look at? :Yawn:

[Johnny Friday]

Mark,
here's a picture but this was after you had that severe spleen injury and had to revert to the bubble. by the way, how's your appendix?

Enjoy...

[Mark Thorpe]

Mark,

Considering you had three housings and cameras, did you manage to get a single picture we could look at? :Yawn:C'mon mate. You above all people should realize that this was a commercial shoot with an end paying client. All of the footage remains the ownership of that client. While some shooters may not have the integrity or adhere to a strict code of client confidentiality and would be willing to post footage on a public forum I can tell you that neither I nor any of those I worked with on this shoot hold those convictions.

IF in the future I work on a personal project and wish to share that then so be it. At that time you will be free to nit and pick and tell us all what we are doing wrong. Until then please understand our commitment to our respective set of professional ethics.

Johnny, ohh those appendix are a rumblin'. Good chatting with you this morning, hope Alaska is chillin' yer bones.

Cheers,
Mark.

[CoralSeaTV]

RE: Footage from the Palua shoot.

You know that 10 minute RED promo movie that was played at this years NAB and is available to download in the Jim Jannard thread. It has a superb jelly shot that looked like it was from Jellyfish Lake in Palau. So I figured it was a shot from this shoot. No?

George

[Mark Thorpe]

It may have been shot in Palau in that very same lake but not from this shoot. That promo was put together even before this team landed in Palau.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

RE: Footage from the Palua shoot.

You know that 10 minute RED promo movie that was played at this years NAB and is available to download in the Jim Jannard thread. It has a superb jelly shot that looked like it was from Jellyfish Lake in Palau. So I figured it was a shot from this shoot. No?

George

It was indeed.....so where ever that might be located....it will show you how the "GATES" housing performed with RED. the Jellyfish on that reel were shot with "Deep Red" of Gates.

[Johnny Friday]

It may have been shot in Palau in that very same lake but not from this shoot. That promo was put together even before this team landed in Palau.

Cheers,
Mark.


Mark, not to contradict, but I believe I was told that the production company we worked for might have passed some footage on to red.

[Mark Thorpe]

Well there ya have it. My life as a mushroom continues......its something about being kept in the dark that kinda attracts me.

[Johnny Friday]

Well there ya have it. My life as a mushroom continues......its something about being kept in the dark that kinda attracts me.



Yes, a fungus we are Mark in the corner of this cruise ship of life.

[Mark Thorpe]

The darkest, dampest least informed corner at that......gotta love it.

[Jason Sturgis]

Hey Mark & Johnny,
Thanks for posting your thoughts on the housings from the Palau shoot! I enjoyed reading about your real life experience with each rig and all of the pro's and con's. If I could ask another question, how did the Gates manage in the water as far as being positive, neutral, and/or negative? I know it might vary depending on which lens you were using but just wanted to get a ball park sense. Thanks in advance.
-Jason

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Jason,
The Gates has a selection of different trim weights and a gazillion possible places to locate them within and around the housing itself. You can also get buoyancy tubes from the company if your system, with your required lens, lighting etc, becomes too heavy. We had the system dialed in Palau. Johnny worked mainly with that system so maybe he would best be suited to answering you on that. I can only attest to the few times I used the system, mostly though I was handing it over to his holiness....

Cheers,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

Hey Mark & Johnny,
Thanks for posting your thoughts on the housings from the Palau shoot! I enjoyed reading about your real life experience with each rig and all of the pro's and con's. If I could ask another question, how did the Gates manage in the water as far as being positive, neutral, and/or negative? I know it might vary depending on which lens you were using but just wanted to get a ball park sense. Thanks in advance.
-Jason

Hey Jason,
the gates housing was slightly positive with both the red 18-50 and the zeiss 14mm Mk2 T2.1 lenses [i'd say about 5-7lbs]. All it took in order to trim out the "deep red" was a few trip weights (supplied by gates). There are places inside the housing where you can mount some 3-5lbs of small weights via velcro. you can also utilize the dovetail grooves on the outside of the housing to get some final trim on the housing again with these small 1/2lb trim weights--nice thing about the "dovetail" trim weights is that after velcro'ing on weights inside of the housing, you could then trim it out perfectly with the outside "dovetail" weights so housing was not only neutral, but so that it was not front or tail heavy.

[Johnny Friday]

Mark, please don't talk about my holes!
Thanks,
JOhnny

[Ken Corben]

RE: Footage from the Palua shoot.

You know that 10 minute RED promo movie that was played at this years NAB and is available to download in the Jim Jannard thread. It has a superb jelly shot that looked like it was from Jellyfish Lake in Palau. So I figured it was a shot from this shoot. No?

George

Shot by me and my crew in Alaska - it is a moon jelly smack with a lions mane jelly in the foreground. Same ocean different day.

Sharky

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi,

All this talk of posting RED u/W footage. Here is a link to some shots from the first test dives with my new U/W RED rig. Not shot in Palau unfortunately, but Sydney Harbour and surrounds. The sea was not the best and I know it is hard to see the RED magic, but to me it is exciting to be shooting at this level and I am really looking forward to getting some footage in good clear conditions. And maybe even using an Arri 14mm prime rather than the RED 18-50mm as we used for this footage.

The footage is at:

http://www.coralseatv.com/html/body_red_test.html

Thanks

George

[Jason Sturgis]

Hey Mark & Johnny,

Thanks for the info on the Gates buoyancy. Sounds like you have plenty of options to get the rig right where you like it- good to hear! Looking forward to seeing all of the footage when it airs. Thanks again for sharing and good shooting.
Best,
Jason

[Mark Thorpe]

Shot by me and my crew in Alaska - it is a moon jelly smack with a lions mane jelly in the foreground. Same ocean different day.

Sharky
Ahhha, well there ya go. Straight from the dude who shot the sequence.

Cheers,
CamDiver
aka the most sunburnt Mushroom in the dung heap.

[Amund Lie]

RE: Footage from the Palua shoot.

You know that 10 minute RED promo movie that was played at this years NAB and is available to download in the Jim Jannard thread. It has a superb jelly shot that looked like it was from Jellyfish Lake in Palau. So I figured it was a shot from this shoot. No?

George

Do you have a link to Jannard's post with this clip?

thanks,
Amund

[Johnny Friday]

That then would be a clip shot with the Aquavideo / ET hi-brid housing with the Zeiss 8r. The place as KC mentioned is in Alaska and with a group of moon jellies and one or two lion's manes mixed in.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Sorry to hack a post in here guys but everyone reads this thread. : )
I would love to ask a few rental/rental-operator rate questions to people with an R1 package in the Fargo ND/MI area. Looking for someone with ice diving experience and their insurance on their gear.

Please PM me and don't respond on the thread I don't get yelled at.



Aside from that, why is it that production insurance won't cover damage to rented equipment if you have under-water stuff? I thought you'd just have to include it ike a stunt...?

[Jason Sturgis]

Do you have a link to Jannard's post with this clip?

thanks,
Amund

Here is the link:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29473&page=3

[jim kozmik]

Hello from Canada,I am receiving my Aquavideo red one housing shortly,would love to read Palau,s red report,I have filmed there 3 times in past 20 years.
Can anyone give me the proper email to bring up this report thanks Jim Kozmik Blue Realm Tv series.

[jim kozmik]

Hi There Jim Kozmik here from the cold north in Canada..I have plenty of under ice time,and will have a redone housing in next 10 days I hope,,what can I do for you..contact me at...Kozmikunderwater@gmail.com

[Mark Thorpe]

A sign of the times. The people here will know the names.

Tonight I had dinner with some friends and in attendance were Iconic underwater film makers Ron and Valerie Taylor as well as Stan Waterman. In conversation with Ron Taylor I noticed that he was so buzzed about the fact that he had just bought a new fangled camera that no longer had a tape drive but a hard drive. This was the first camera he had bought that used HDD technology as opposed to tape. It just shook me that here was a guy who filmed such amazing sequences as seen in 'Blue Water, White Death' and 'Jaws' as well as many memorable documentaries way back in the 60's and 70's who is well into his 60's and yet still embraces this new technology. Its an amazing thing to see these guys excited to go on a dive to film Nudibranchs!

Just struck me as great.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Bmoreshaun]

I was just approached by National Geographic to go off the island of Guadeloupe to shoot some Great Whites for their series on Migrations. They liked the Angenieux 15-40mm, but really wanted to go wider(wider the better). We're using the gates housing in shallow clear water(day time shooting), any suggestions?

[Johnny Friday]

I was just approached by National Geographic to go off the island of Guadeloupe to shoot some Great Whites for their series on Migrations. They liked the Angenieux 15-40mm, but really wanted to go wider(wider the better). We're using the gates housing in shallow clear water(day time shooting), any suggestions?

not really wider = better. But if you want nice results, then the zeiss 8r is splendid as some agree. BUT, you need the animal very close to you in order to give you ANY perspective.

I'd prefer 15-40 if i had it in my arsenal. But are you using the "deep red" housing? if so, then do they have a port extension for that lens? long and heavy.

if using "deep red" then a zeiss 14mm prime is excellent for wide shots, then use something like the 18-50 for close shots at the middle to end of its range. Not a lot of lenses out there at this very moment that you can plop on the red in a housing that I can think of---those mentioned above seem to be a pretty good variety that we had luck with shooting u/w.

At the moment, using a zeiss 16mm ultra prime with the ET housing in AK and really like the ultra prime results. But the ET housing will ONLY work (gears) with ultra primes at this time.

[Johnny Friday]

i thought that geo already finished and shot that segment on white sharks with all the toys....remote helicopter, sub etc..... was it a few months back?

[Michael Hastings]

I was just approached by National Geographic to go off the island of Guadeloupe to shoot some Great Whites for their series on Migrations. They liked the Angenieux 15-40mm, but really wanted to go wider(wider the better). We're using the gates housing in shallow clear water(day time shooting), any suggestions?

I have a Zeiss 10mm T2.1 available for rent which is phenomenal - I'm starting to think the 10 with an extra stop of light over the 8R at 2.8 might be the best overall solution for PL underwater. It is physically a little bigger so don't know if it fits in the Gates. (It does fit in ours with the glass dome optional frontplate.)

I would (mildly) disagree with Johnny - wider is generally better (obviously to a point). A 15mm on RED is equivalent to a 24mm on full frame slr and 14 would be 22.4 and about like a 6mm on an F900 or Varicam. Neither of those focal lengths would be considered "PRO" wide angle for stills and "modern" i.e. post-2000 video is normally shot with a 4.5mm or 4.7mm Canon or Fujinon wide zoom on broadcast/cine camers. Or the equivalent wide is used on most prosumer Gates, AquaVideo, Amphibico, L&M etc. housings for Sony Z1 and the like. You will have to get close - but that's always been kind of the key for underwater.

Arri Zeiss 10mm and 12mm lenses are widely available. The new Tokina 11-16 duclos PL should be excellent as well on PL. But the same lens in Canon mount sells for $599 and birger is available now. I believe the great majority of current housing owners will be using Canon 10-22 or Tokina 11-16 this summer.

[Amund Lie]

Mike,

Do you have a practical solution for controlling the Birger through the housing? Is there an external housing available for the Empiro or similar?

Amund

[Michael Hastings]

Mike,

Do you have a practical solution for controlling the Birger through the housing? Is there an external housing available for the Empiro or similar?

Amund

Amund:

About another week, (an AquaVideo week not a birger week, which means if things go well I can make the waterproof switches next wednesday, but if I get too jammed up it might be 2.5 weeks because I will be shooting the sinking of the Vandenburg the following week. Nobody knows how long a birger week is.:biggrin: PS I kid...)

The circuit board is done and operational, I just need a few free hours to get some switches done. First few will be a bit primitive with the switches but also working with some Japanese guys on a fairly slick handle with Amphibico type switches.

I should be able to make a basic housing for the impero very quickly once I get one from Erik (he says he should have it monday and I should have one wednesday. I think even with impero there may be a good use for our board so you can use impero just for focus and ours for iris and trigger, Image stabilization on, lens initializing etc. as well as backup for focus. Ours has focus near focus far like a prosumer housing while the impero would give you knob-style focus.

[Matt Uhry]

not really wider = better.

Wide is Better. We fitted the PL mount Tokina 11-16 2.8 to Sharky's housing - he has yet to take it under.

http://mattuhry.com/reduserimages/tok-housed.jpg

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Michael Hastings]

Wide is Better. We fitted the PL mount Tokina 11-16 2.8 to Sharky's housing - he has yet to take it under.

http://mattuhry.com/reduserimages/tok-housed.jpg

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Thanks for the second opinion matt, I have been saying this for many moons.

If people read the Friday/Thorpe .pdf report - I had too much going on to respond in the amount of time given, But the biggest thing I wanted to say was that the AquaVideo housing with the simple bent shaft controls was never meant to be used as they had it set up with the 18-50 on an ocean shoot. Those simple controls would only be reasonable with something like your 11mm or 10mm zeiss where you really can shoot hyperfocal if you don't need a lot of iris changes, and of course even then gears/motors would be better.

You might have a problem on Ken's housing with vignetting because the camera is set back farther than the normal housing since it was set up specifically for the 8r.

But your 11-16 actually should set up very well in the stock housing (I think Johnny's is the standard depth) and I think it is the perfect low cost solution for those that don't want to go the Birger route. It could be used reasonably with the free bent shaft controls we include or we could set it up with the ET style gears for a few thousand extra or they could use motors as some of my customers have done.

What are the gear diameters and distance from the sensor plane? With those I could set some simple controls and I do have an LA customer with the stock type housing that you may want to get with for some testing as well (he is also a likely customer) and he has the glass dome which would probably work okay on Ken's housing and may not vignette since it is a larger hole. That way you could play with both versions.

BTW I love the machinist in the background - shorts and sandals - my standard shop uniform.

PS Is the gear an add-on, and could we use an aquatica gear? - I have a stack of Aquatica gear mechanisms here but they don't use cine gear pitch. If it is easily swappable it might also be a good low cost alternative gearing. I think amund has set some things up with the Aquatica gears.

[Mark Thorpe]

If people read the Friday/Thorpe .pdf report - I had too much going on to respond in the amount of time given, But the biggest thing I wanted to say was that the AquaVideo housing with the simple bent shaft controls was never meant to be used as they had it set up with the 18-50 on an ocean shoot.......Every manufacturer was supplied with a copy of the final report prior to its public release. After two reminders and a three week wait we had only heard from one of the housing manufacturers. Given this weak show of responsiveness by companies who allude to a certain professional standard was quite disappointing. Everybody had more than enough time to work with us if they required to defend a product or application of said product. The fact that they chose to take a silent approach should negate their need to make public excuses for the points raised in the report. They had every chance to do that prior to its public release. We were, after all, testing underwater housings for what they are supposed to be used for, underwater applications.

Regards,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

10K character limit- 1st part is in next post.

I still don't have time to give an in-depth well thought out response but let me throw out a few points:

1) Focus/Iris has been beat around quite a bit already - see my other posts or call me for more explanation. But I would like to talk about "hyperfocal". The RED 18-50 really doesn't have a hyperfocal setting like we normally think about for underwater. Even at its angle of view the DOF is much shallower than you are probably familiar with on 2/3" or 1/3" video cameras like a Z1. According to iSee4K, on the RED an 18 mm at f2.8 has DOF from just 2.5 feet to 3.7 feet and even at f8 it is only 2.5 to 15 feet. On the other hand a 10mm at f8 is from less than a foot to infinity and even at 2.8 it has DOF from less than 2 feet to 26 feet - so would be quite feasible to preset and forget focus in many or maybe most common situations.

So clearly, as you said "The housing as featured is really setup for a shooter to set a hyper-focal setting on the focus ring and then manipulate Iris only when necessary." And yet you were using it with an inappropriate lens even though you had an 8R available and other housings with gears that possibly could have made decent use of the 18-50. I fully understand and appreciate that either you wanted to play mostly with the new toy OR that one of you (Johnny?) was the primary contracted shooter and therefore needed to have best lens/housing combination you had available to you even if the other was short-shrifted because you are the one getting paid or at least the lead. In that case I also would have made the same choice given the Gates/External LCD/14mm was the most complete package BUT at that point it isn't really fair to talk much in a public "report" about a system (the AquaVideo) that was setup in the worst possible way on that particular shoot.

2) LCD. The fact that you can use the LCD at the back of the housing is not a negative it is a BONUS/major positive. You have also had the option of an external LCD case ($1499) for almost a year - with the same easier-to-use user set buttons as on the Gates version. We also make a ProLCD external housing ($2099) and as you may or may not know the ProLCD has a much greater viewing angle than the REDLcd (Viewing angle: 130 degreesH, 110 degreesV, vs 60 degrees H, 50 degrees V) which is a huge improvement. Although virtually everyone I know also wants to have the external LCD for most shoots it has been pointed out by several whale shooters and others that it is REALLY nice to be able to just have the internal LCD and therefore the GREATLY reduced drag. Nothing like that is really possible with the DeepRED.

I suspect the reason that Johnny hasn't purchased an external LCD is that, as you mentioned previously, you guys were getting an external LCD case made by someone out there (ET?) and he figured with the internal LCD and external EVF he was covered. Which is fine, but to make multiple mention of the difficulty and lack of an LCD when it is readily available seems to be "ACCENTUATING THE NEGATIVE".

BTW the reason we didn't have an external EVF almost a year ago is part of that other backstory. But making an underwater case for the RED EVF is actually pretty easy since its tubular style is virtually the same as what we have made for many of the modified viewfinders for VARICAM, BETACAMs, etc. over the years (at least 6 different versions). In fact the LCDs aren't very difficult either - the only hard part of RED monitoring is the cables - which brings us to the next point.

3) You both talked about how "Also as Mark mentioned, a bulkhead connector for an external LCD would greatly improve the ease of use and basic handling of the (AquaVideo) housing" but also went on to talk about a problem with the Gates LCD "whereby on occasion the LCD would show us a pixilated yet viewable screen. ... that seems to stem from the cables or LEMO connectors from a third party vendor."

Well we knew about this issue early last summer. Jarred told me that the DVI-type signal used was very sensitive and that we should definitely NOT cut the cables or redo connectors as we might experience exactly that problem AND that it could/would (I don't remember the exact wording) void the camera warranty. And since I actually know quite a bit about digital video technology, unlike I think some of the other players, I thought that he probably wasn't exaggerating the issue.

So we came up with a seal that does not require cutting or reconnecting and lets us use the RED cables (with some external sheathing for toughness). And I think the guys at ASL knew this as well since they came up with a similar cable seal on their Red LCD case (which BTW is an alternative LCD case that could be used with our housing as well.) In other words, I believe that seaconn/subconn type underwater bulkhead connectors for either the LCD or EVFs are likely to cause problems and that we are not ALLOWED to use them within RED warranty terms.

4) You also made specific mention of a Gates having a Schrader valve vacuum port. Well, we have always had that option and maybe I am thinking of someone else but I am almost certain I put one of those in Ken's "hybrid" housing and I think maybe Johnny's as well.

5) Ports: You both made several mentions of the danger of us using an Aquatica port that is no longer made. Well, again you espoused something that is only half true and turned something I consider a bonus/benefit into a supposed negative.

It is true that Aquatica no longer manufactures the A80 housing or the ring portion of the dome ports (although they told me at DEMA that they thought they might still have some full parts and components still in the warehouse) BUT

a) the dome that they use is still the same and can be replaced fairly inexpensively by them as they do with current housings. So yes I do recommend that if you buy our housing and plan on using the acrylic domes that you order an extra. That way if I have a stroke or get hit by a bus you can always swap it out with them and you won't be without a port in the meantime. and b) once you have one it really isn't that hard for any competent machine shop to make one or many of the rings that the dome gets glued into at a fairly inexpensive price.

c) I made quite a few of the front plates with the threading in it; I bought over 60 of the new domes, as well as many of the extension rings, long macro ports, etc. and since day one have had stock for all of those ports available for overnight shipment. I did not buy a lot of the 8" acrylic domes as I knew we were making an 8" glass (which has been available since DEMA in October). But in fact, I was able to ship an 8" acrylic overnight to Johnny. I did tell him that day that I only had one to ship because others were committed to orders. I didn't see enough in the normal spot we kept them and couldn't remember how many we originally had or had shipped out over the year - but in fact found 5 more a few days later. But I would suggest you ask Pace, Hydroflex, Gates and others how many units of a broadcast or cine housing they have sold and how many finished ports they keep on the shelf for them. I doubt if anyone has large JIT inventory sitting there since most of these systems are somewhat custom. How many do Gates (or ET/SLcine) have on hand? Not to mention ANY long lens macro ports, short lens flat ports, Glass domes, etc. all of which we have and have had.

Also I have over 20 units with this port system in the field, so it is a fairly full boat that you are in with to be able to combine to have them made, if or when I should disappear. The reason I chose those ports is because no one knew how many REDs or housings would get out there so it would be nice (for the customer! not me.) to use an existing SLR dome, but all of the current housings use bayonet style that are too small for the cine lenses like the 8r, 14mm 12mm, etc. The hole on the A80 IS large enough AND the A80 (for the Nikon N8008) was one of the most popular Aquaticas ever (it was distributed by Nikon) AND the same dome and ring were used on the AquaLens that was made for the Nikonos - so there are a lot of them around to be used or refurbished.

And finally, if you read my literature - or simply looked somewhat closely at the frontplate on those housings you will see that there is also an o-ring groove with 8 concentric tapped holes out around it. Anyone with a black and decker drill and a clear piece of plexiglas bigger than 7.5 diameter could easily make a usable port out in the field in a matter of minutes, and of course with a little better tooling you could make and easily attach/seal all kinds of custom ports.

For you to somehow turn all of that into a negative seems to just show a great ignorance of how small the high end professional underwater camera market is. I have, as a favor, made replacement ports for Rick Frehsee's SLR housings and McGillivray-Freeman's Imax housing because they could no longer get them from the original maker. So I know from 25 years in this business and from personal experience that you can't expect that stuff necessarily to be sitting on the shelf even a week after you get it much less long term. You don't know how long the principals of Amphibico, or Gates, or PACE, or Hydroflex or Subal, or Seacam, or Nexus or anyone else is going to be around at all (they are all small shops) - much less in business and supporting their products. When it comes to high end underwater systems, I don't see anyone that is or has been better positioned to provide rapid support of ports. Nor do I see any of those that have provided something like the universal mount seal setup that we have (try to get someone to make you an inexpensive extension port for that DeepRED housing.)

Anyway, enough time and enough rant. But I would like you and anyone that reads the report (and it is worth reading) to consider my thoughts as well.

[Michael Hastings]

1st part of response to Thorpe/Friday "report" second part is in previous post:


Every manufacturer was supplied with a copy of the final report prior to its public release. After two reminders and a three week wait we had only heard from one of the housing manufacturers. Given this weak show of responsiveness by companies who allude to a certain professional standard was quite disappointing. Everybody had more than enough time to work with us if they required to defend a product or application of said product. The fact that they chose to take a silent approach should negate their need to make public excuses for the points raised in the report. They had every chance to do that prior to its public release. We were, after all, testing underwater housings for what they are supposed to be used for, underwater applications.

Regards,
Mark.


Mark:

I have tried to take a high road approach to this, and would like to keep it reasonably so, but there is so much wrong with that statement that I have to take exception.

In order of appearance: (and this first is a nitpick) I received your initial report on May 1 and it was publicly released may 11, so NOT 3 weeks. And in fact May 1 was a Friday and by the time I checked mail on Monday it had slipped down two pages in the list and I missed it until I got your reminder on the 7th. So my real response window was 4 days and over a weekend. And you know through our private correspondence that my stepson was killed at the end of March so in addition to dealing with that, playing catch up with orders, dealing with suppliers, trying to finalize the Canon smart mount control, etc., I have also tried to devote a little more time to family stuff. So you might have considered that your report wasn't my highest priority and if you were so antsy to get it published, you or Johnny (who I have talked to many times) could have picked up the phone - number is below on all my posts - and said "hey, what did you think" and we could have quickly covered the main points.

Second and more importantly, whether is true or not that I took a "silent approach" it IS NOT TRUE that it should negate the need for public "excuses". Your "report" was released publicly therefore responses both private AND PUBLIC are completely appropriate. As I get time over the next days/weeks to be more articulate I will post responses, partly to set the record straight AND also because I think they are educational. If a significant majority of bubble blowers think that my posts have been less than fair or informative then I will consider refraining but so far I have been told that they were appreciated.

My post was an EXPLANATION not an "excuse" because an excuse implies that there was something wrong - which there isn't with that control setup. I was just explaining to those that might not be aware that you were using it in a way it was never intended. The points about the limitations of bent shaft controls and particularly with the 18-50 have been covered with EVERY customer (including Johnny) - and virtually everyone that has inquired directly about our housing. It is also covered in the download .pdf file that has been on our website for a year:

http://www.aquavideo.com/pdfs/RED1HousingBrochure309.pdf

not to mention that it has been thoroughly covered on multiple occasions in this thread.

(Also far as I know, through several discussions with Johnny Friday, he has just been vacillating over whether to spend the money with ET for their gears; OR to have the people he knows in Mexico City do his gears - that seem to have a nicer, more flexible gear system which is already in use on another of our housings and was to be here at the Underwater Boot Camp before it got canceled. That is an option that you may not know about or simply chose not to mention in the report; OR to use servo motors like most B4 and modern film based systems use; OR to go with the Birger solution OR maybe to just get the Gates.)

And this is the same situation with more than half of the current owners - they knew that there were several immediate gear or motor solutions in the 3-8K range (that required a $6K - $20K PL lens to be purchased or rented) but also knew that there are several better and less expensive options on the horizon so were waiting to see what shakes out while getting by with the simple setup. Typically that would be through rental of an 8R or 12mm (about $300/week almost anywhere in the world) which work acceptably with the bent shafts - but NOT expecting that to be the case with the 18-50 except a few VERY simple controlled situations (not open water). But even an AquaVideo with a super slick setup like Heden motors or similar would be $8K to $10K less than the Gates setup with gears - that still can't provide the flexibility of Cine motors or a Canon smart mount.

Maybe John at Gates was more responsive but remember I have had a year and a half of both personal use and feedback so I am pretty well aware of our limitations and strengths. And it also may be more critical to him as yours was a very early use of the housing (albeit it had a year plus of development) and seemed to be the focal point of your trip.

But regardless of that, my biggest gripe is I just don't feel you did due diligence. Most of your comments/criticisms had to do with the fact that they simply didn't purchase the options that have been readily available for over a year, and that are covered in the brochure and have been talked about several times on this thread. The other thing that made it hard to comment is the somewhat effusive praise of whole ET lens gear/hybrid housing thing. While I don't hesitate to admit that Joe Ortega and Hector are far better machinists than I will ever be and do great work, there is a whole backstory to that that I don't want to get into publicly. (But I think it may be time to share my feelings more thoroughly with you, Ken, and a few others).

(continued in previous post....)

[Mark Thorpe]

Mike,
You had every possibility to address the report out of the public gaze, you chose not to. I am not going to get caught up in your feet stamping mate. We used your housing, which has positives and minuses the same as every system out there, to get a job done. It stood up to the mark and performed well. There were issues we had in the field as with every system. It really appears that after all of this time you have only just read the paper now and are reacting to that.

We tried to be as even minded with this as possible mate, take it at that, or leave it, simple.

I will not respond to further posts or emails on this topic.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Michael Hastings]

Fair enough Mark, I don't want to get it overblown or develop any bad blood with you or Johnny. (JF, I got your email and you were right I just needed to calm down...). So please take it all with a grain of salt or (spoonful of sugar.)

The basic design philosophy was to keep the base unit as compact/minimal drag as possible with the greatest port optics and lens flexibility. And to give the user options for external viewing, lens control, etc. that they can add immediately or as their needs or budget develops. I guess I just wanted to make sure people didn't get the wrong impression and think that those things weren't readily available.

[Johnny Friday]

I think if anyone reads the housing report, you'll find an honest evaluation of each and every housing used on our shoot. And there is no attack upon any housing manufacturer as i think you'll see if you read carefully each evaluation. In fact there is nothing more than constructive recommendations for each housing that we used and what would make it better. What you will see with Mike's 'Aquavideo' housing under recommendations that we thought would make it better are:
1. external housing option (which Mike states is available)
2. gearing solution for lens control (which is an option with either ET or other skilled machinists)

*what we endeavored to accomplish that i think everyone will (after reading the report) is a fair evaluation of each housing as we had it delivered to us. Mike makes a point that he has additional options available that answer our "what would make it better" section so therefore those points have been dealt with at 'Aquavideo'.

We all know that Mike has been hard at work on his housing and has been open about what he thinks will make it better as well and I salute him for his honesty. Additionally Mike has always come through for me with any and all of my requests to get me any additional items such as dome ports and glandular fittings for controls.

Finally, not to beat a horse here, you will find surmised our first hand evaluations of the housings and each has its respective strong and weak points that differ for each user. In fact, Mark and I have disagreed upon some points with 'certain' housing 'strong/weak' points. But it is all a matter of our personal opinions and needs.

[paul engstrom]

Where I hear some consternation in the last few posts is that it appears this was not an apples to apples comparison.

So a car with a v8 is compared with a competitors V6 powered car (which, incidentally, also comes with a v8) and then noted negatively for not having a V8. The maker of the second car will surely feel slighted and wonder--why did the reviewer not compare the V8 version???? That's the tone I hear in Mike--and I can see why he'll want people to be aware he's got the V8 version for sale too.

I'm sure its impossible to have a perfect apples to apples comparison--but I can see where manufactures would feel slighted when the test appears unfair.

[Pawel Achtel]

On the other hand a 10mm at f8 is from less than a foot to infinity and even at 2.8 it has DOF from less than 2 feet to 26 feet - so would be quite feasible to preset and forget focus in many or maybe most common situations.

This may be true in air, but not quite so behind a dome port underwater. When using dome, one needs to focus on the virtual image, which is often closer than 1 foot with the real subject being some distance away.

[Mark Thorpe]

Where I hear some consternation in the last few posts is that it appears this was not an apples to apples comparison.

So a car with a v8 is compared with a competitors V6 powered car (which, incidentally, also comes with a v8) and then noted negatively for not having a V8. The maker of the second car will surely feel slighted and wonder--why did the reviewer not compare the V8 version???? Well IF the v8 was on the starting grid it would have been addressed. Simple.

I find the negative reception of this act of wanting to basically share our experiences with the equipment at hand, not what is available, but what was at hand is pretty sad in a way.

I'm outta here.

[Pawel Achtel]

I'm outta here.

see you back soon :rofl:

[paul engstrom]

Well IF the v8 was on the starting grid it would have been addressed. Simple.

I find the negative reception of this act of wanting to basically share our experiences with the equipment at hand, not what is available, but what was at hand is pretty sad in a way.

I'm outta here.

Sorry Mark--these forums are so difficult to convey the correct tone and clarify one's meaning; I'm glad you guys gave your feedback as its very helpful.

With car reviews there's plenty of money & magazine sales to accomplish apples to apples testing--not so in the high-end bubble blowers camera housing market. Reviewers have difficulty getting the gear to review and manufacturers have difficulty sending the gear to review. Its such a niche business. And so we're thankful with what we get--even if we can't get perfect apples to apples comparisons.

Cheers,
P

[Johnny Friday]

I think that if anyone 'ACTUALLY' reads the housing report, then they will understand that there is no attack on any manufacturer and any of our recommendations are just that 'OUR' recommendations. You as a user may feel different and Mark and i differ on our opinions on the same housings as a fact.

But read it and you'll get our 'tone' and understand that we have given our recommendations based our our personal needs and desires and what we think an end user may need/want as well. Again, go read it first. There in fact is (in my opinion), no apples to apples comparrison. the prices differ as well as options for what you get and that is also taken into account. One housing costs sub $9,000 the other over $25k and yet another around $15k so forget apples to apples. that was not intended.

[Michael Hastings]

Johnny, I have spoken to you a number of times and you have always been the voice of reason and calm even when others (including myself) were not, so I don't think you and I have any significant misunderstanding and I know you were not trying to attack me or the housing - because you just wouldn't do that.

But as you can see below, I basically made a one sentence reference to the report - in the middle of a longer post saying nice things about Matt Uhry's 11-16; providing some insight on how it might be used; offering to help him get a housing setup to test it; talking about the possibility of lower cost gears; etc.

Yet, Mark took that one reference and got a bit strong in his post and basically called me and whoever else out - implying a lack of professionalism because we didn't drop everything and respond. And yes I got a little annoyed, especially when he said that since we didn't respond when he wanted it, that I don't have the right to correct what I thought might be misimpressions. And none of that seemed to be very fair or to make much sense.

I'm sure Mark is a good guy to work with, have a beer with, etc. and we'd get along just fine - so as I said I don't want any of this personality stuff to get overblown.

I took the time to write that long post mainly because I thought that maybe there is some confusion out there (not because of the report) and it was important for people to understand that there is an underlying philosophy and plan with my version. It is modular (like the new Epic) so you can set it up as your needs or budget dictate, and I think that whether you go with a base unit, or one with full lens controls, external LCD, cheeseplates, Glass domes, macro ports, video out cables, etc. etc. - it hits the sweet spot in terms of being compact, capable, and like the RED, an excellent value in terms of price.

So everyone should use this stuff as a positive. Read the report - it brings up valid points that people should consider as far as the equipment that was there and how they were setup. Then I suggest they take a look at my post, ignore any personal stuff and just see what we have to offer as alternatives, improvements, or whatever.



If people read the Friday/Thorpe .pdf report - I had too much going on to respond in the amount of time given, but the biggest thing I wanted to say was that the AquaVideo housing with the simple bent shaft controls was never meant to be used as they had it set up with the 18-50 on an ocean shoot. Those simple controls would only be reasonable with something like your 11mm or 10mm zeiss where you really can shoot hyperfocal if you don't need a lot of iris changes, and of course even then gears/motors would be better.



Every manufacturer was supplied with a copy of the final report prior to its public release. After two reminders and a three week wait we had only heard from one of the housing manufacturers. Given this weak show of responsiveness by companies who allude to a certain professional standard was quite disappointing. Everybody had more than enough time to work with us if they required to defend a product or application of said product. The fact that they chose to take a silent approach should negate their need to make public excuses for the points raised in the report. They had every chance to do that prior to its public release. We were, after all, testing underwater housings for what they are supposed to be used for, underwater applications.

Regards,
Mark.

[Johnny Friday]

No offense either side of the fence Mike. As many know i started with an AV housing for Red a long time ago. Ken and myself got base units 1 and 2 and have since tricked them out to the gills with gearing, dual batteries, LCD's and more. So there is and never was a reference to AV housing as anything but an underwater housing like the others out there....just different features and options and price points. I'd continue, but the report says it all...

Thanks to all that made it happen,
ps....a big one to Mark for actually initiating and writing the report.

**Yeah, Mark's all right to have a beer with, but don't get him anywhere near a karoke bar....

[Michael Hastings]

... but don't get him anywhere near a karoke bar....

... so that may be the ticket, get him on video and I can blackmail him to say whatever I want... :cool::thumbsup::) But seriously, I know it takes a lot of time and effort to write a report like that, so I do thank Mark and yourself for doing it - the more experience and discussion the better.



This may be true in air, but not quite so behind a dome port underwater. When using dome, one needs to focus on the virtual image, which is often closer than 1 foot with the real subject being some distance away.

Of course that is true - for a six inch dome a true 2 foot subject distance becomes 6" in front of the dome and infinity becomes 9" in front of the dome. You get that close focus on the virtual image either with lenses that can focus that close, or with diopters. (and remember you add in the distance behind the dome and to the sensor plane so that 6" actually becomes more like 13" or so.) But it is basically proportional so for the most part the DOF works same way - wider lenses provide greater DOF.

In some ways "virtual" image is a confusing misnomer. In actuality it just means that the physical distance to the "in focus" image is no longer in the same place - so the scale markings on the lens don't match the measured distance to the subject. The thing to remember is that EVERY lens element creates a so called virtual image that the rest of the lens elements behind it have to focus on. Underwater we have just added another element(s) - the air/port/water interface.

Basically an underwater lens like the Nikonos 15 is just a normal lens (20mm, but that's another story) where the gearing has been adjusted and the scale remarked to take into account the glass/water interface.

[Johnny Friday]

Red in the Arctic....

[Michael Hastings]

Red in the Arctic....

Back to something interesting.:):thumbsup:

My third video dive with the first AquaVideo (1981) housing was an ice dive, but freshwater could only get to 32F - what's the water temp there?

[Frazier Nivens]

Back to something interesting.:):thumbsup:

My third video dive with the first AquaVideo (1981) housing was an ice dive, but freshwater could only get to 32F - what's the water temp there?

Mike speaking of diving, did you get on the media boat for the sinking??

Did it work out? PM or email me.

Frazier

[Paolo Tinari]

Michael,
sent an email with some questions a few days ago. Maybe you missed it.
Best,
Paolo

[Johnny Friday]

Back to something interesting.:):thumbsup:

My third video dive with the first AquaVideo (1981) housing was an ice dive, but freshwater could only get to 32F - what's the water temp there?


It's not much colder that 32f. I think we are in about 29f....diving just below the salt water iced up where i believe freezing is around 28.5 f - i may stand corrected on that figure, but not by much.

We have had no real issues using red in this demanding environment. I think if we take anything away from this shoot, it's to have a WIDE variety of filters if shooting in the ice/snow.....variety of polarizing filters as well as the usual ND kit and some UV's.

Also using EX1 with fantastic results. What a great run and gun camera.

[CoralSeaTV]

Hi,

Firstly a huge thanks to John & Mark for posting the RED housings evaluation report. Fascinating reading, especially since I’ve just had my own RED housing made. I wonder how mine would have rated!

Anyway I have been testing my housing and getting a feel for it and am curious about other RED U/W operators “real life” focus stories.

If there is one constant you hear about the RED it’s that focus is just so critical (more so than 35mm cine) and that a focus puller is absolutely necessary for topside shooting. So I am wondering how others are finding it for focus U/W? I would particularly love to hear about dome port focus issues/experiences.

So far I have used only the RED 18-50mm lens and found that getting focus through our Aquatica 8” dome seems pretty straight forward (1 metre in front of dome seems to be in focus at approximately 16” on the lens at 18mm. Which is what you expect from an 8” dome, yes?).

I am about to do a U/W shoot using the Arri 8R 8mm lens. Can any of the Palau crew or anyone else who has used this lens U/W through a dome shed any light on focusing tips or other issues with it? I know it is going to yield spectacular images especially on objects close to the camera. Our shoot is at night so I suspect a pretty low level of light and F stop. We will have a topside video split but only at 720p.

Any info much appreciated and I will certainly share what I learn from using the Arri 8mm lens.



George
www.coralseatv.com
Sydney, Australia

[Amund Lie]

Having owned an AquaVideo Red One housing for a year and holding a reservation on a Gates Deep Red, I feel I can add some light to the discussion. There is a reason why I have made a reservation for the Gates Deep Red, but there is also a reason why I am reluctant to drop the AquaVideo.

I see no need to rekindle the flame over the report, which in my opinion seemed fair and no more biased than any user I assume would be after trying both the AquaVideo and the Gates. I understand Mike's reaction, but I also do support the conclusions in the report (be it noted that I have not yet laid my gloved hands on the Gates).

The AquaVideo basic tubular design is simple and clever, and makes for a well-balanced unit that handles well in the water. With the rear acrylic plate at the rear and acrylic dome port or the flat glass port from Aquatica, the housing is almost perfectly balanced as is. With the recessed glass on the Aquatica flat port the unit becomes sturdy as a tank, and can take quite a beating in shallow waters or against a boat side. This limits the lens choices somewhat, but I have successfully used a Sigma 17 - 35 zoom with no vignetting, as well as the 20mm UltraPrime.

The report's concern over the lack of replacement ports/parts is in my opinion a moot point, since I have had no trouble finding used ports from still camera housings, and now have a total of four inexpensive Aquatica ports with various extensions and shades. Since the screw-in variant is discontinued Mike must (has?) at one point switch to the bayonet or ports from other suppliers, but since the front port plate design is separate from the housing I assume this is a matter of inexpensive retrofitting or on-site replacement (Mike?)

Adding the new glass port however makes it rather front heavy, and the glass is very exposed to damage. The added weight and less balance makes this setup more suited to shooting with easy entry/exit into the water or pool use. The glass dome accommodates the 18-50 zoom and larger primes and the lens markings are clearly visible through the glass, so for slow-paced shooting with higher optical requirments this is a good choice. For any open water use the acrylic dome handles better, albeit of a lesser optical quality.

Having the tubular design with the monitor placed at the very back is of course debatable. I have not yet seen much reason to complain, primarily because it is a very simple and inexpensive solution. Yes, it is awkward to do low angle shots, and sometimes your arms become too short. And at age 41, I suppose my arms will become even shorter in a couple of years :) A larger monitor will help wherever it is placed.
But in all this design has not yet caused me great concern, being on a budget to start off with. Adding an external monitor shouldn't be too difficult for those that can afford it, a bulkhead connector for SDI cable is easy to install for anyone with some workshop experience, and standard monitors in third-party housings are aplenty. It shouldn't be too difficult for Mike to offer this either.

But, there is more concern for the design of the lens controls. It does frustrate me that there is a less than adequate solution for mechanical manipulation of iris and focus (zoom being less critical), with as far as I know no off-the-shelf solution for a film lens gear system is available. Mike has instead opted for the Birger path, a choice I am hesitant to support. As wonderful as this electronic lens control system might sound, it is still very much in the future for underwater use, and reliant on the fact that one must ditch PL-mount with the implications that brings. Birger is only now shipping, with waiting list on the Empiro. How the electronics will perform in damp conditions is another concern, the odd drop of saltwater will hit the gear and condensation is sometimes unavoidable. My RED One has held out so far, partly due to carefully covering the body with gaffa prior to installing it in the housing. More or less open electronic controllers, buttons and circuit boards is not what I'd like to see in an underwater housing - you really cannot go wrong with mechanical controllers wherever you are in the world, repairing electronics is after all another matter.

For me, ditching PL for the Birger is not an option, especially for commercial and drama work. I can, and have on occasion, persuade DPs to accept Nikons over Ultra and Master Primes using the leak argument, i.e. that they were risking damaging those expensive lenses if there was a leak. Optically it makes not much difference, most viewers (or DPs) can't tell the difference between a good still or cine lens under water anyway.

But, and this is a big but, I want to be able to offer my clients the use of PL lenses with fast and accurate focus and iris control. Today, the rudimentary lens control offered by AquaVideo is barely, and just barely, useable. In a controlled studio/pool situation you can get by (even with a topside DP screaming into your intercom) , but in open water this is simply not good enough. I have missed several great animal shots due to this. And no, just using a fixed focus wide angle lens is not an option! I want to be able to use zooms, prime 24, 32, 40 or even longer lenses for drama, macro or whatever I might need a longer, easily focusable lens for. And I also use my camera above water, and no one will rent it with a Birger mount installed.

Mike, does Aquavideo now have proper lens gears on offer? The Birger could be a great option for those willing to go that route, but please don't exclude the majority that don't. PL is "back in vogue", with a plethora of cheaper, better cine-style lenses coming on the market in the near future, with less and less reason for choosing Birger/Canon as your only mount. I have been in touch with another user on this forum who had cine gears made for him, and also asked Element Technica to have some made, but neither could help at this time. For the time being I am stuck with the standard AquaVideo lens control which does work, but requires me to have oceans of time and patience...

The AquaVideo is a decent and inexpensive housing with a simple design that can he hugely improved by offering a good set of lens gears to fit for instance the 18 - 50 zoom like the Gates does. And, with the option of adding an external monitor the difference becomes even less, but so does the price point! If the AquaVideo is to keep its current corner of the market, there must be some improvement to these two important issues, without adding greatly to the cost. And I say that Birger should be the second choice for lens control, with PL in the front seat. Mike?


Amund

------

Now with clean moltons!
(yes, the flame retardant causes rashes)

[mike luzansky]

Well, we just received our Gates Deep Red housing, the first production model to be delivered. We are prepping it as we speak for in pool and in ocean testing this weekend. Pics and details to follow!!

[mike luzansky]

We had an awesome day out at Catalina with the the first production Deep Red from Gates!! They made some very nice changes since we last tested the prototype. Housing was a beauty, handled amazing underwater and is very well balanced!! More info to come!

[Michael Hastings]

Amund

I can supply the ET style gears that we put on Ken Corben's housing. I will post some pictures later. I got involved in putting a 3d camera (two Canon HFS100s on the Vandenberg ship (2nd largest artificial reef sinking ever) that will be sunk tomorrow. Will get some more info up later this week/weekend.

[mike luzansky]

Here are a couple of videos from our tests with the Deep Red this weekend. These are clips shot with the EX1 in a Gates housing, of the Deep Red in action.

A Well balanced Red (http://vimeo.com/4860954)

Bert with the Red in Kelp (http://vimeo.com/4860491)

[Rudi Herbert]

Guys, on a different note...

I need to buy or make about 10-15 housings for the little Canon HG20. I know Equinox makes one but it's worthless for what I need. I need a very simple housing, with controls for just ON and OFF basically, but I need a nice dome port at the front, a 6" acrylic would do fine, so that I can fit a wide angle adapter over the camera stock fixed lens. As importantly, I need something that can reach 200 meters (660 ft) since they will be used at depths up to 165 meters (540 ft) to film a freediving world record. I want to equip the diver's sled with several cameras as well as fit some of the deep safety divers with a few other housings also. I need the housing to be as small as possible, without worrying about accommodating the LCD screen, which I would leave closed anyway. So, a nice, strong little cylinder with a dome at one end, that's all...

I figure Mike from Aquavision could be of help, but truth be said, I have sent him several PM's in the past requesting rental rates for his RED for some very juicy gigs and he's never replied, so I figure I have a better chance asking here. So, if anybody knows of anyone that sells or could build something like this for me, please let me know. Custom job or not, I need these housings to be cheap, they will be used basically as crash cams of sorts. Does it have to be the Canon HG20? Not really, but if you know another camera that sells for $500 and records the maximum quality of the AVCHD format at 24mbps onto a true progressive chip, then let me know and I'll switch to that camera.

Any help would be appreciated,