Which lens package is right?

[Ryan Nichols]

Ok, I'm trying to decide what lenses are best for me in advance of EPIC. Specifically, probably EPIC-S.

I already own the Zeiss 50mm and 35mm ZF. So right now I'm trying to decide between rounding out that set or the RED PRO 17-50.

I'm not a RED One owner so I don't know the difference in quality that both might present. I need to know about any workarounds with shooting a SLR lens on a red. I know pulling focus is one so what do you all suggest if I go that route? Also, there are mattebox issues to think about if I go with the primes.

I'm really having trouble going back and forth in my head over this. So any help would be very much appreciated. I think it would be better to have all the focal lengths if that is a viable option.

I'm trying to keep all the expenses for the camera and other accessories at or below $30k.

Thanks in advance!

[Julio Quintana]

I don't know if this helps:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54057

[Ryan Nichols]

Well it does, and I've been looking at it since you started it. I know most of the prices, I just need to know specifics from people who might have used both.

[Ryan Nichols]

Or at least if someone has used the Zeiss ZFs on the R1 I'd like to know how they perform on focus pulling.

[Julio Quintana]

If it's any help, I think I've finally decided on a Canon zoom set. Here is why:

1. Price:
For $5500, I can cover every focal length from 11-200mm.

2. Weight and Size:
It is extremely convenient to be able to carry all of those focal lengths in one airline carry-on size bag.

3. Touch Screen and Auto Focus:
Although one of the biggest drawbacks of SLR lenses is their focus scales, one of the biggest drawbacks of PL lenses on Epic is the inability to take advantage of the electronic focus controls.

4. Rentability:
Most people testify that it is very difficult to rent out Red lenses as clients usually prefer Zeiss, Cooke, or Angenieux. That means that to capture the cine market, I would have to invest around $30K minimum to get a used set of Zeiss Super Speeds. And unless I can make $25K on those lenses in the next two years, they don't make financial sense over the Canon zooms.

So why not the Canon primes? I would probably rent a nice set of PL lenses for any serious project I do, so by purchasing SLR lenses, I am really just having something to get by. While it is nice that the Canon primes are faster, for $9700 I actually cover less focal range than the zooms (12-135mm), with a serious gap in the 13-23mm range. So for my purposes, the Canon zooms just seem like the best value in the sub $30K range.

Hope that helps.

Julio

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I believe Zak S. has done quite a bit of narrative with the Zeiss ZFs which IIRC he had de-clicked by Duclos. A lot of people hate on them but they make excellent images for the price.

I can see the advantages of the Canon zooms for portability and precise focal length selection across a wide range. Obviously you will not have the speed of a prime set or as nice a bokeh, but beyond that, I would mention that when it comes to zooms the difference between Cine and stills lenses tends to be more of an issue than in prime lenses (mechanics, breathing, ramping).

The great thing about the Red PRO 17-50 is that it can live on your camera and handle a ton of situations without having to do a lens change. It's nice and light for hand held. Because it is a Cine level zoom you can actually do live zooming when appropriate, it will interface with cine aks and it is designed to match well with RED's sensor tech. YMMV. Good shooting.

Cheers - #19

[Shane Kelly]

Ryan,
I've had a set of zeiss zf since they were first released and have used them extensively on my red with the optitek mount. They are, by far, the best lower budget option for a good set of modern lenses that you can actually use a follow focus on. Mine are declicked and have focus gears. You can add a 77mm step-up ring to the zfs and have an 80mm outside diameter for a mattebox.
I also just bought a set of compact primes which are based on the zf's and absolutely love them. If you do round out the zf set, get the 21mm.Unbelievable lens, really stunning.
I'd stay away from the electronic lenses, not for image quality reasons, but for the fact that it's impossible to properly rack focus with them. Some people will beg to differ with me on this but that's my opinion and I'll stick by it (at least until I see electronic focus work on the epic).

[Ryan Nichols]

Shane, thank you! I've been waiting on that for a while. All B & H sells are the new lenses. Do you know where I can still get the original lenses?

Also what is declicking the FF exactly? The 50mm is awesome on my still cam. I can't wait to get the rest!

[Ryan Nichols]

Julio, I haven't had much experience with Canon glass. Do you have a good test showing the quality?

[Ryan Nichols]

Blair, I think either way...I'll be getting the RED zoom at some point. It just seems like too good a lens to pass up!

[Harry Lipnick]

For what it's worth, I DP'd a short in December on my Duclos-modded ZFs. Teaser trailer's here: http://vimeo.com/18601607.
Not RED, but the lenses are wonderful.
Peace,

-Harry

[Ryan Nichols]

Ryan,
I've had a set of zeiss zf since they were first released and have used them extensively on my red with the optitek mount. They are, by far, the best lower budget option for a good set of modern lenses that you can actually use a follow focus on. Mine are declicked and have focus gears. You can add a 77mm step-up ring to the zfs and have an 80mm outside diameter for a mattebox.
I also just bought a set of compact primes which are based on the zf's and absolutely love them. If you do round out the zf set, get the 21mm.Unbelievable lens, really stunning.
I'd stay away from the electronic lenses, not for image quality reasons, but for the fact that it's impossible to properly rack focus with them. Some people will beg to differ with me on this but that's my opinion and I'll stick by it (at least until I see electronic focus work on the epic).

This doesn't mean the ZF2 lenses does it? They don't have a servo in them I don't believe.

[Ryan Nichols]

For what it's worth, I DP'd a short in December on my Duclos-modded ZFs. Teaser trailer's here: http://vimeo.com/18601607.
Not RED, but the lenses are wonderful.
Peace,

-Harry

Nice Trailer! They do look great. Have you used them on stills since the mods? Does the declicking make them impractical for that?

[Ryan Nichols]

Also, do you need the cine mods for smooth FF operation?

[Shane Kelly]

This doesn't mean the ZF2 lenses does it? They don't have a servo in them I don't believe.

No, I think the zf2's just added a chip to talk to the camera but they are still fully manual lenses.

[Shane Kelly]

Also, do you need the cine mods for smooth FF operation?

You do need to add gears and the duclos mod gears are the best way of doing this. There are other cheaper ways but I would recommend doing it right.

[Ryan Nichols]

You do need to add gears and the duclos mod gears are the best way of doing this. There are other cheaper ways but I would recommend doing it right.

Thanks a lot! I think im going to go this route. They look very awesome.

His prices are pretty reasonable as well.

[Harry Lipnick]

Nice Trailer! They do look great. Have you used them on stills since the mods? Does the declicking make them impractical for that?

Thanks for the kind words Ryan. I have taken a few stills here and there while shooting a movie, but I've never gone out and shot stills handheld or anything like that with the ZFs. I'm not really a stills guy. However, my opinion would be that the declicking of the iris would be no problem, because as far as I can tell you can still lock it at 22. So the Canon should still be able to control it in Av mode, or, if you're gonna go manual, the declicked iris is just a nice, smooth, ring that you can put at any split stop you want. My bigger concern shooting stills would be that your focus ring is now covered in a delrin gear, which are fairly wide and particularly uncomfortable to focus by hand in my opinion. They are an absolute treat with a follow focus for cine work, but I don't think I'd recommend them if you do a lot of handheld work. If that is something you find yourself doing frequently, you might talk to Matt Duclos and see if there's a lower profile focus gear he could do, that might be a little thinner and hug the actual lens diameter tighter. Don't know if that's possible, but if it is, Duclos can do it. They're great to work with. Hope that helps.
Peace,

-Harry

[Shane Kelly]

one issue that can come up with the declicking is using them on a nikon stills camera. I rented out my 100mm makro to a stills photographer and he said that the lens wants to close down when attached to a nikon. I've had no issues on canons with an adapter.
It's also easy to go back to a clicked version should you ever want to sell your lenses in the future.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

got the ZF's delicked, geared, 80mm fronts. A-mount..

work like a charm.. no issues. reverse focus doesnt bother me, i can adapt to any lens, they have a nice rotation too.. best bang for buck lens out. get the A-mount and make them positive lock and your golden

[Ryan Nichols]

I actually don't do much handheld for cine stuff. It's more the stills I would be worried about. I do love to shoot stills in my spare time but I make my money on films so that's what I'm more worried about. I can deal with the lens gear pulling focus by hand. It will be weird to not feel a click and know where I'm at on the aperture because I still shoot *gasp* film so my camera doesn't even tell me what stop I'm at. It's ok though, I can adapt. I know Epic will do stills too but as a guy that came around late in the film game...there is nothing more satisfying then going out and shooting film on a manual focus lens with nothing more than a +/- meter on it and coming back with something awesome. Of course, I still grade on the computer...I'm not a purist, I just love shooting film for stills.


Thanks guys! You have all made this transition a no brainer. I have been fretting over this in my head for a while now.

Now maybe a recommendation on an awesome lens case would be awesome! :001_cool:

[James Brundige]

Ryan :

Your initial question has not been answered, as to whether the Red 17-50 is a comparable option. It would cost less than three Zeiss, and has the mechanical advantages of a cine lense. Several folks here have said it's good enough to function as a variable prime.

Anyone compare the Red 17-50 to the Zeiss?

Clearly the Zeiss are a fine option (as evidenced by the CP version), but the Red looks very interesting to me.