Don't shoot the messenger [Archive]

Blair S. Paulsen

11-05-2007, 08:48 AM

I hope Geoff doesn't ban me from CML for copying his post from this morning about his on set experience with 2 RedOnes. Not a great day for our cause but a lot of cinematographers do read CML and we need to be able to respond when they bring this up. It also should serve as a reminder that when we hire our rigs out we need to be sure the client understands that the RedOne is still in development. Of course I am sure Geoff has never had lost any taped or filmed footage :sarcasm:

FWIW #19 has rarely crashed and during more than 47 days on sets there has only been one time I could not get it running properly again within 5 minutes. The other good news is that every file that I have ever opened in RedAlert has been intact. BTW I am still running the 9/25 build because I believe it to be the most stable, YMMV.

GEOFF'S POST:

Our second day of shooting with 2 Reds and they both crashed on the first
shot of the day.

Apparently the last upgrade caused a problem with the codec where it will
crash if there is too much detail in the scene.

Of course!

We have another upgrade which will be installed today.

I have agreed to continue shooting with them on the basis that if they crash
again I'm kicking them off the nearest cliff, about 5 feet away in our
current locations.

This has cost us 3 hours of unit time and the loss of a number of shots that
can only be got on a Sunday at sunset. I doubt we'll be able to schedule
them on the right day in the right light now.

I was told that they'd been running fine for a couple of weeks, " any
problems and we just reinstall the software" how often do you have to do
this? "oh only every couple of days or so and it only takes a few minutes"
if I'd known that before I started shooting they wouldn't have come near the
set.

They do produce nice pictures when they're working, that's why they're
getting a second chance.

They won't get a third.

You have been warned.

Geoff Boyle FBKS
Cinematographer

Vladimir Eugene

11-05-2007, 08:54 AM

I was experiencing crashes when changing from 4k to 2k or vice versa, my fix was just uploading build 6, and continuing on 4k. I later found out by Mark, that I was going about it incorrectly. When I changed cards, I had to go to the settings I wanted, ex 2K at 75 fps then format. I was so stocked that it worked, I haven't experienced crashes since. for the occational lock up, getting from playback to reccord mode that is fixed with a reboot. Operator error on my part.

Vladimir

liquidigital

11-05-2007, 08:58 AM

I hope he calls me before he kicks them off the cliff. I'll take them off his hands for him. ;)

I Bloom

11-05-2007, 09:04 AM

Not doing your homework and keeping up to date on firmware updates, is akin to loading the film in the camera with the emulsion facing the pressure plate. It shows you don't know what the hell you are doing and you are in over your head. There are only one hundred of these cameras. You're on the bleeding edge my friend. If you do your homework, you will bleed a little instead of a lot.

Many cinematographers and camera houses seem bent on FUDing RED before they even get out of the starting gate. It's also akin to swimming against a rip tide. That makes me sad for them. But happy for me. I'll be taking their job shortly :shifty:

IBloom

Vladimir Eugene

11-05-2007, 09:08 AM

Not doing your homework and keeping up to date on firmware updates, is akin to loading the film in the camera with the emulsion facing the pressure plate. It shows you don't know what the hell you are doing and you are in over your head.

Many cinematographers and camera houses seem bent on FUDing RED before they even get out of the starting gate. That makes me sad for them. But happy for me. I'll be taking their job shortly :shifty:

Right Ian,

I also found out that you can load different builds - the upgrade folder on different sd cards, that way my CF cards are free, I can boot the camera with the sd cards in them and change from build 9, to 8, or back to my work horse 6 if I have too.

I Bloom

11-05-2007, 09:18 AM

Right Ian,

I also found out that you can load different builds - the upgrade folder on different sd cards, that way my CF cards are free, I can boot the camera with the sd cards in them and change from build 9, to 8, or back to my work horse 6 if I have too.

There you go. Do you hear the excitement in that man's voice.

That's the sound of someone who takes pride in their work and knows how to use their tools. Someone who rises to the occasion. Not someone expecting to get something for nothing.

(Good news about the SD cards and multiple builds. You've sharpened the knife my friend, I'm excited. I need to stop drinking coffee while I'm doing post prod work.)

Mathieu Ghekiere

11-05-2007, 10:40 AM

If they told this cinematographer that it would be running fine, it's not nice if he sees that the camera crashes...
Yes, RED is new, but it's also out.

There are both sides of the medal:
1. It's normal with such a new product, such a new company, such an ambitious goal, that there will be bugs and issues. Every new product has them.

2. It's also normal (somewhere) to expect if you are downloading a firmware upgrade to make the camera better, that it won't make the camera worse.
Or just crash. (although I seem to read more and more that it's always safest not to download an unproven upgrade download, before they know can completely test it)

I don't think the problem is huge, and I do think people should give RED some slack, but on a professional set, when you are told as a DOP that the material will work fine, I somewhere can understand his frustration, with all the money involved. I know there are other options out there that are more bug-free, he could have done his homework, but no need to make the comparison with someone loading the film in a film camera in the WRONG way. It's not a fair comparison: someone who does that, is making a fault. In this case, the camera (or upgrade) made the fault, not the operator.
Altough he could have done extra research.

Both parties have a point in this case...
No need to slam the guy... (although his comment of kicking the cameras of a cliff wasn't needed also... I would be happy to be catch the cameras though, if he kicks them off the cliff :biggrin:

Obin Olson

11-05-2007, 10:50 AM

This is the type of thing your going to get if you put out a camera that is not 100% bulletproof. Pros are like this for a reason. When the camera does not work the DP looks like a moron - a moron that has about a million others nipping at his tail waiting for him to fuck up so they can take his job. And a moron that is costing the production and producer far more stress and money then they expect or want to spend.

Buggy cameras are fine, but should not be used when your life is on the line with a "big" project.

EDIT: you should also know your camera inside and out before your shoot starts :)

SF Geek

11-05-2007, 11:18 AM

It's hard to know a camera inside and out when it changes every few days, and new bugs are introduced with those changes

SF Geek

11-05-2007, 11:19 AM

People are very quick on this site to call other people morons.

Justin McAleece

11-05-2007, 11:23 AM

...Atleast I don't. I know his name but have never met him. I'm sure some of you know him. What I do know though is that he has atleast a 1st and a 2nd and probably a tech and they should have studied everything there possibly was to study about the RED and have a laptop and this forum standing by with an early adopter on set ready to understand and do his best to fix any problems. Maybe fixing a new camera is not Geoff's first responsibility but it certainly is the first responsibility of someone else in the camera department.

Obin Olson

11-05-2007, 11:23 AM

Have you never "looked like a moron" SF? I know I have...that is why I don't really like cameras or any equipment that has bugs..CineForm has made me look like a "moron" many of times....that's what the bleeding edge is about though right?

BTW I did not call anyone a "moron" I said "When the camera does not work the DP looks like a moron" meant from the producers POV.....Did you not read my post SF?

Brook Willard

11-05-2007, 11:24 AM

Sounds like a rough day... it's unfortunate that it worked out that way.

Any word on what the camera issue was that day?

Fredrik Callinggard

11-05-2007, 11:27 AM

Guys!!! I think that Geoff has done his homework, he's the founder of CML. What I think has happened here is the thing that happens to DP's, remember that he is not the operator he's a lighting cameraman. He depends on the people around him and in this case I would guess it's the guys renting the RED to production. They're the technicians and experts on the set and I think that what happened was that they downloaded and installed the latest built of the software (not no 9 but the famous one that's been reported crashing everywhere). Now I think that if they did, they did something very stupid, during shooting don't upgrade, don't tamper with something already running smoothly. If they did that they took a risk and it created a stand still during shooting. I understand Geoff's frustration because 3hrs is a long wait and the producers must have been over him like rabid dogs :waaa:
I think we should see it as a lesson learned that we need to be careful, that what were dealing with here is not finished products. I think it was Kosmos who wrote a thread warning all new owners telling them to test they're cameras thouroughly before they even approach a client.
For all it's worth I hope that Geoff will change his mind because if there's anyone out there who will judge these cameras objectively I think it's him. So lets hope his team around him makes sure that they're up to scratch and that they perform accordingly to what's necessary for the production.
Especially since I'm like a kid again :sorcerer: Waiting for mine to arrive just in time for christmas :biggrin: :biggrin:

fred

Stephen Williams

11-05-2007, 11:33 AM

PaulClements

11-05-2007, 11:47 AM

Well the plus side of Geoff's comments are that the camera makes nice images. So technical bugs aside that's a decent compliment that many here and on CML ought to appreciate.

The bugs are a big annoyance and it's a shame that whoever sent out the cameras wasn't alert to the problems with the build. If they've been using the camera previously they really ought to have known about such issues and if they've upgraded just before the shoot and the new build had no specific additions required for the shoot it was the wrong move without thoroughly testing it.

I don't agree with others here suggesting Geoff Boyle hasn't done his research or he should have done more. If he had a technician there on set with the camera it should have been their duty to know these things inside out, if it was me I guarantee I'd be aware of all issues and how to fix them, and if I didn't know I'd be bloody quick at getting an answer. If there was no technician available the rentee ought to have been on call to offer advice and get an answer immediately.

It's unfortunate, there's little else to say about that. The problem build needs whiping off the face of the earth! Let's hope it's an isolated incident that anyone sending their camera out on location considers. By owning the equipment it is our responsibility to offer the best service available to those who pay us for it's use.

Paul

Steve Tammi

11-05-2007, 11:59 AM

Sounds like there was a problem with the firmware and in this case a software change was necessary to remove the problem. Booting to another firmware version should only have you down 5-10 minutes. But it is important that you go over these potential issues with the customer so they can decide if the risk is worth the reward.

In two months of shooting I have had to change the firmware once on set while trying a new build but the DP and director were aware of the newer untested build before it was installed.

Steve

Hi,

Geoff is a shooting a big production where time is money. I don't think it is so strange to expect them to work. Geoff would never agree to software changes during a shoot as that's when problems occur.

There has after all been a great deal of positive comment here on this board.

Stephen

Stephen Williams

11-05-2007, 12:09 PM

Hi Steve,

Is it normal to send out old firmware versions with a rental camera?

Which ones should I ask for?

Stephen

Sounds like there was a problem with the firmware and in this case a software change was necessary to remove the problem. Booting to another firmware version should only have you down 5-10 minutes. But it is important that you go over these potential issues with the customer so they can decide if the risk is worth the reward.

In two months of shooting I have had to change the firmware once on set while trying a new build but the DP and director were aware of the newer untested build before it was installed.

Steve

I Bloom

11-05-2007, 12:26 PM

Hi,

Geoff is a shooting a big production where time is money. I don't think it is so strange to expect them to work. Geoff would never agree to software changes during a shoot as that's when problems occur.

There has after all been a great deal of positive comment here on this board.

Stephen

Sorry if my comments earlier on this thread were flip. It was my first gut reaction: Geoff's comments are just echoes of sentiments that I run into constantly about RED from much more established tradesmen than myself. I feels a little bit like 50's parents telling you that rock and roll is not music.

Here is a quote from Jim on CML 2K 4:4:4 last week:

3. We are taking time to enable more features and stabilize the
firmware. We have a few more bugs than we like with each new build. The firmware should be finished about the same time we execute the new daughter board and PL mount.

Seems like he just said on Geoff's own forum, that "my product has bugs". Should we expect Jim to say "kick my product off a cliff, it doesn't work."... It does work, and in fact the build 8 issue, now in our past, is an example of a very complicated software bug, that only rears it's head when the system recieves a very specific type of input. It caught them off gaurd but they fixed the problem within a week.

Anyone who keeps up with this community would have gotten the word about the codec problem from me or from Rocketeer last week. If Geoff's guys knew about the CODEC FAULT, they could have had build 6 or 8 v1.3.6 on a card... ready to go... reinstall... camera up in 5 minutes. That's what it takes right now to do this stuff, anything less and you are asking for trouble. Kosmo31 could not be more right.

"That's not how it should work" they say. "'If you gave it to me, it should be ready to go." they say. "This mixture of computers and cameras is disastrous." They say. So are hurricanes man, that's why you need to listen to the radio and buy plywood.

Ian

Blair S. Paulsen

11-05-2007, 12:40 PM

Having at least 2 firmware builds on hand should be SOP. Despite the limited features I still use the build from 9/25 for all commercial work. Based on my first 2 months with #19 I have found its more like a computer than a camera in terms of troubleshooting. Re-booting (power cycling) and re flashing the firmware are the most successful steps I have used.

I also support the notion that having a RED savvy tech is mission critical at this stage of the development cycle when doing commercial projects. IMHO basic operations are actually pretty darn easy but real time problem solving and grasping just how to best take advantage of the RAW topology of the RedOne is best served by having the best talent on set you can find.

Fredrik Callinggard

11-05-2007, 12:51 PM

If you read all the threads at CML you'll find that yes they did upgrade the camera and yes Geoff was completely unaware of this or it's effects. I have to say that so would I be. You can't keep track of everything and if the "experts" do something you expect it to be what's necessary for shooting. Now in this case it seems like an unlucky timing and at the same time something else must have happened, because the guys must have had the re install former software solutions close by hand. As Paul says he gives it one more chance because it produces beautiful imagery.

So thumbs up!!!

fred

Fredrik Callinggard

11-05-2007, 12:52 PM

Obin Olson

11-05-2007, 01:01 PM

It really is a rental house fault IF they knew about the issue. If not, I would say it's a beta issue - nothing much we can do about that but wait and report all bugs ASAP as we find them.

Now I am feeling a little better about my serial number 610 instead of 56 - I bet LOTS of bugs will be gone! :):):):)

Brent J. Craig

11-05-2007, 01:23 PM

What a weird post from GB. He is a highly respected and prolific poster on CML, yet he seems to be saying he chose to use this bleeding edge BETA camera with absolutely NO research or understanding of its limitations.

Anyone following the development should have known better than to use new firmware builds in a production environment. Whoever supplied the Reds needs a talking to.

I wonder if Boyle remembers his first few months using the Arri 435? I recall approximately 1 in 10 mags jamming, random unexplained shutter changes, phantom camera starts/stops, and scratching. After 6-8 months of shakedown the 435 became the respected workhorse it has been for the last 12 years.

I would hope people will accept the same shakedown period for the Red One as they have for other new gear.

Brent J. Craig

11-05-2007, 01:31 PM

The posts saying one should have the older firmwares on hand to install are interesting, but remember that Red's download site is available ONLY to owners. In a rental situation such as this the ACs / techs would not be owners and therefore wouldn't have access to other builds.

I question the usefulness of keeping these downloads under lock and key. Especially strange is the fact that regular people can't even download the camera manual!

Steve Tammi

11-05-2007, 01:54 PM

Stephen,

In my case all firmware versions are on a CF card that stays with the camera. Also the camera does not go out without a qualified tech. Since camera firmware is field upgradable it can go out with any version. For straight 4K I use the 9/25 build. If 2K variable frame rate is desired I use the beta build right before version 8. (Make sure you understand a few quirks when using this build.) Still evaluating V9.

Because development is changing quickly right now do yourself a favor and make sure you have a experienced tech along with the camera unless of course you have time to really test before you shoot.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Is it normal to send out old firmware versions with a rental camera?

Which ones should I ask for?

Stephen

Steve Tammi

11-05-2007, 01:57 PM

What I really question here is renting the camera out without a tech, especially on a production shoot.

Steve

The posts saying one should have the older firmwares on hand to install are interesting, but remember that Red's download site is available ONLY to owners. In a rental situation such as this the ACs / techs would not be owners and therefore wouldn't have access to other builds.

I question the usefulness of keeping these downloads under lock and key. Especially strange is the fact that regular people can't even download the camera manual!

Steve Sanacore

11-05-2007, 02:04 PM

As much as I am dying to use this camera on my commercial work, I wouldn't use it until it is bulletproof. On set is no time to deal with any technical problems from a camera body. We always have backup film bodies now, and quickly move to it at the slightest problem. Are most RED rentals going out in pairs? Are there enough of them for that?

Loading firmware etc etc. that's nuts. No DP or operator should be dealing with any of that on set or anywhere near the set.

That needs to be worked out way before production begins.

Maybe the camera is just not ready yet? Mine is still many months away so I hope this becomes a thing of the past quickly.

Sanjin Jukic

11-05-2007, 02:13 PM

If it all continue like this the CML and Geoff will CRASH fast soon.

I don't know why Goeff is playing DP DIVA?

Mike Prevette

11-05-2007, 02:20 PM

You all need to also take into context these posts. He wrote this on the first day of a day > to night shoot schedule changeover, and he says in the first post on the blog that some of it will be more knee jerk than usual as he is going to be blowing off some steam on the blog. I don't fault him fro reacting this way at all, but he is also writting in half sentences on the matter. At the end of this last post he admitted to sleeping for three hours before writing it. I'm sure he did all the research he needed to do as the DP on a feature. I would blame his techs if anything for not being honest about the ups and downs of the current red.
_mike

mezmo

11-05-2007, 02:25 PM

Hi guys
This camera is a computer with a lens hole more than
anything else, and similar to the SI2K. They will crash.
I say if you rent for high end production, have a back up
body for critical shots ,sunsets, explosions and the like.
This camera and workflow are still in development ,even though
units are out there in the big bad world.
Is this a good or a bad thing? There are many thoughts on this.
For the moment untill Red is bulletproof, as I think it will be, we need
to proceed with caution and have some insurance on set, a back up
camera body, (Steve Sanacore also suggests this).
As I've said here before some actors can cost as much as a Red camera, having them stand on set for one hour, waiting for a reboot or whatever. Multiply that by two or three hours and you can see why a
back up camera body becomes a very cheap option.
At the end of the day when the dust settles and producers are looking to
recover lost time and associated costs thru insurance companies, the first
person on the list to talk to will be the guy that owns and rents that Red
camera. Is that you and do you own a house?
Have a nice day Mezmo

Jonathan L. Bowen

11-05-2007, 03:38 PM

I guess one of the professors at the LA Film School complained about the camera during class, some really stupid complaints from what I was hearing, not to mention no knowledge of the fact they are still in testing phases. A lot of new technology has a rough phase when it first comes out, it's not THAT big of a deal.

Chris Parker

11-05-2007, 04:08 PM

Bottom line. This camera is not 'rental house ready' yet. It is strictly 'owner/operator' ready. (Except those Red Ninja chaps. They got it goin' on). Give it until NAB of this year for it to be 'rental house ready' in my opinion.

For now, hire Blair, offhollywood, a red ninja, or many others like them to get your job done. whoever owns these REDs should take responsibility for this and get them working for this DP so that he ends up liking them, finishing the film with them, and singing their praises in future posts.

This would be much more productive than bickering about whether he is right or wrong. Wo whoever the owner of those cameras is, I say either get on it...today...or hire a red ninja yourself to fix this problem, and take the hit on your rental to get good word of mouth when it's all over.

My 2 cents....

Blair S. Paulsen

11-05-2007, 04:18 PM

For better or worse I made the choice to cross post Geoff Boyle's musings from CML, completely without permission and in violation of CML policy. I considered paraphrasing his comments and being vague about the particulars but decided that I would rather be as accurate as possible.

I have read hundreds of Geoff's posts and while he can be a hothead at times my take is that he really loves Cinematography and is a straight shooter. My public apologies to him for not securing his permission in advance. Please don't attack his choice of words, he, like any of us who has had a tough day on set with things not working as expected, vented a bit - my supposition is that is part of why he started CML.

In any case I am glad I started a thread that addresses the realities of using an in development camera system in serious commercial productions.

One man's approach:
My camera only goes out with me or one of the other Red Ninjas - talent on set counts. During the first 60 days I kept my rates low to reflect the risk level instead of trying to cash in on my early rezzie. I make sure that me or my booking agent has fully informed the client of the current capabilities and limitations of the RedOne. I have not offered post services for anything longer than 1 minute finished until RedCine ships and there is a dot release of FCP that includes native RedCode support. It is completely viable to post a feature via RedAlert and FCP but I lack the patience - maybe if I had a couple of interns and/or assistant editors in the budget...
YMMV

Michael Schrengohst

11-05-2007, 04:36 PM

Maybe Geoff needs a Red Ninja...

Chris Parker

11-05-2007, 05:48 PM

Thanks for clarifying Blair. Sure Geoff was venting. But this forum too often takes angry criticizm of the RED the wrong way. People like Geoff are where we can learn the most, and where we need to focus our attention. There are enough of us who simple LOVE this camera. It is those who do not that we need to listen to most.

I worked with a big commercial DP last week, and he test shot the RED and DIDN'T LIKE IT....YET. He wants to work with me to learn more about it, and help me develop a system that works. If I didn't listen to his bitching and moaning about all the things the camera can't do (yet), and just dismissed him as a 'red-naysayer' and bad-mouthed him for 'not believing', then no one would have gained.

Same with Geoff. The RED cameras cost him a shoot day. THAT SUCKS. That is BAD. That NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. As I said, the owner of these cameras is the one who should address it. Blair's approach is the correct one at this point in time. And the only one that will work until the cameras are more 'battle ready'.

Anyways, bottom line is simple. This shoot NEEDS a Red Ninja. Simple.

Dexter Gregoire

11-05-2007, 05:58 PM

Has anyone figured out that there is a help section on Reduser. Maybe someone should point that out to Geoff. People here are ready to help including Red Employees Even on Sunday. There is a proper place for everything. I won't show up at a football game with a baseball mit and bat.

Got problems with a red camera go to the red forum and search for answers.

It doesn't matter how big you think you are as a filmmaker. Someone Bigger is going to come along.

The next generation of Filmmakers is among us>

Steve Sherrick

11-05-2007, 06:03 PM

Is Geoff not a member of Reduser? We should welcome him with open arms.

I think this experience he had is an important one. It is clear that the Red cameras are still in developement, yet very capable of capturing stunning imagery. Until they mature they need special care on set, especially the sets with a lot on the line. Those who have suggested having multiple camera bodies on set are right on. You need backup right now until the firmware and other issues are solved.

I think these issues will all get resolved. Jim seems like the type of guy who will be willing to go the extra mile if it means getting his camera exactly right. I'm sure a report like this from a respected DP will only get the team to work harder, and of course this benefits everyone in the long run.

So, Geoff if you're listening climb aboard the Reduser forum and help pave the way. Your input is very valuable, as is everyone else's who is out there shooting with these cameras right now.

Steve

Adam Jeal

11-05-2007, 06:21 PM

Evin Grant

11-05-2007, 08:49 PM

Maybe Geoff needs a Red Ninja...
Hmmmm, I know I have one around here somewhere...

:ninja:

dino g

11-05-2007, 09:35 PM

for the quality level the camera in the hands of the right owner/operator is as good and as fast as any camera ever made.

we have had 10 flawless shoots for very high end clients and not a problem, save a reboot here and there but nothing that would make it slower than threading film each camera mag.

i put a post out about a month ago for new red owners to be cautious, it became a sticky (until the crash) and helped start the help section of this site, please read it before you rent your camera out.

and the red ninjas are not the only ones that have their act together, noah k. is a highly trained professional, gibby et. al., mark allen, and others are professionals with these cameras. every owner is not the same and the more jobs you get under your belts the easier it will be deal with the issues that may arise. and the new camera builds are amazing, playback is awesome.

Fredrik Callinggard

11-05-2007, 09:46 PM

Hi Guys!

Can we stop saying that he should have gone to the RED forum. That is one thing that he actually mentions as stupidity on the CML list. He had a team of guys on the phone with Stuart, which to me seems a whole lot better than grabbing your phone, bluetooth it with your laptop and browse more than 80.000 posts. They were on location, out on a cliff in the desert how the ... were they going to go on the forum? That's most probably why he lost 3hrs because they had to drive back to town and find the nearest Starbucks:wink:
I'm in love with this Camera as much as anybody and I to doesn't have it yet or haven't actually seen it. But I do know how it is to be a DP and to stand in the field and have something breakdown is always hell. Suddenly the producers expect you to go from a creative mind into an engineer. I've shot film all my life for almost 15 years now and I've only touched HD ones. It was the Sony FW-900. I had no time in learning how I would repair it if it broke down. For me it was as revisiting the first days in film school with DigiBeta and it was a little like bicycling. I did have something with me though. I had an assistant who knew the camera, who was great but if the Camera would have broken down he wouldn't have been able to fix it either. Why do we stay away from motion control? Because it breaks down all the time. Is hell to set up etc.
In the end it shouldn't have been upgraded it should have been on lockdown as it would have been in any other situation. A post company does so when they're in a project so why wouldn't they?
Now I of course don't know, maybe RED still is in such a Beta state that you have to upgrade it all the time? I don't know I don't have one yet :sad:.
I do know that even to me this constant posting about going to the forum is bluntly stupid. They were doing the best thing, they were on the phone with the best support possible. If their was anyone who should have been on the forum it was the RED technicians and they should have been so the night before. Maybe then they would have seen some of the warnings posted on that particular build?
As for a Cameraman I wouldn't questions the skills or the knowledge of Geoff's, but as he posts on CML he is a first of all a Lighting Cameraman which means that he can't know it all and that he will concentrate on the picture and rely on his team.

fred

Steve Sanacore

11-05-2007, 10:34 PM

Pierce Cook

11-06-2007, 09:51 AM

It's just the "you have been warned" that bothers me.

Without reserve, it's quite clear that Geoff is very talented. I know you expect what you pay for to work and that time lost is money lost, but putting the positives and the negatives side by side should give you the answers you're looking for.

Because of the builds, I would think that indeed some people either aren't ready for or just want to wait for RED to be tested further, and I see no fault in that.

I still intend to get one ASAP.

That said, I hope they don't crash for him anymore.

Gavin Greenwalt

11-06-2007, 01:54 PM

I don't know if Red is doing this but most companies have their firmware clearly delineated between stable point releases and beta releases.

It would probably be adviseable to even put this somewhere in the UI "About Camera" section or equivalent.

Firmware 13.2 (BETA)

Keeping all firmwares on a single SD card does sound like an excellent idea. I wouldn't even frown on RED adding a 128MB flash chip to the mainboard for reverting without an additional SD Card.

Dominic Cochran

11-06-2007, 04:13 PM

It's just the "you have been warned" that bothers me.

So, lets say you were the first to install this update and your camera crashes. Are you saying you wouldn't warn anyone?

I think a warning is justified. Plus he clearly says he likes the images! We can't expect every statement made by someone to be a glowing review, let's get real.

tj williams

11-06-2007, 05:30 PM

Ahhhhh now I get it the first perfect RED will be No 1150!!!!

I hope Geoff will take time to respond here

I Bloom

11-06-2007, 05:33 PM

So, lets say you were the first to install this update and your camera crashes. Are you saying you wouldn't warn anyone?

Unfortunately, I think that very thing has taken place at least once. Here.

Tom Lowe

11-06-2007, 05:46 PM

Dominic Cochran

11-06-2007, 07:14 PM

Unfortunately, I think that very thing has taken place at least once. Here.

So what is the problem with it happening on CML as well?

Don't get the controversy here... do you really expect this to be the ONLY place where Red is discussed whether it's singing Red's praises or warning about firmware release bugs?

The guy said he had a problem with Geoff warning people on the list, even though Geoff had good things to say about image quality.

The anger doesn't make ANY sense to me, on any level.

Go Red and go Geoff!

Jiri Bakala

11-06-2007, 09:22 PM

This forum is the most defensive place around. If there is a problem, let's talk about the problem and not all get defensive. More than half of this thread is about whether Geoff should or should not have done or said this or that while preciously little refers to the actual problem. And this happens with every thread on this board. How the hell is anyone ever supposed to find anything here? If you are a working DP you simply don't have 2 or 3 hours EVERY night to read everything. Sifting through all the "I can't wait for my camera to arrive" meaningless stuff is not research, that's wading through miles of shallow water looking for a few precious pebbles of information that actually mean anything.

There you go, I just added some of the same to this thread. I wish though, that there were some moderators here that could keep this board clean and efficient and simply remove all the useless junk.

Pierce Cook

11-07-2007, 11:40 AM

So, lets say you were the first to install this update and your camera crashes. Are you saying you wouldn't warn anyone?

I think a warning is justified. Plus he clearly says he likes the images! We can't expect every statement made by someone to be a glowing review, let's get real.

I don't disagree with this, and I certainly don't expect everyone to be pleased... In this case it may just be how I interpreted his quote that bothered me. I am happy he likes the images, looking forward to seeing some.

Justin Anderson

11-07-2007, 12:51 PM

I hope he calls me before he kicks them off the cliff. I'll take them off his hands for him. ;)

I'll be at the bottom, with 2 well padded pillowcases. :D

John Tissavary

11-07-2007, 02:10 PM

I used a Red camera on a national spot I produced just 1 week ago and it performed beautifully. We were able to get more setups & footage than we had originally planned on for the production.

One of the primary decisions I made when choosing Red was to go with the most experienced DoP & DIT I could find. I hired Evin Grant and Brook Willard, and it turns out I'm an HR genius!

This was a critical project for us - big client, dream subject matter. We had one 18 hour shooting day with a company move, and we pushed the camera hard both physically and subjectively.

First part of the day was on a dolly, no big deal, but the second was off a jib shooting a motorcycle through the streets of downtown LA, and aside from a few minutes of 'codec error' in the morning that Brook & Evin quickly solved, we didn't have any problems.

I know that Geoff is an amazing DP with TONS of experience on all matter of film & digital gear... it almost seems like a bad joke that two Reds crashed on him, but just because bleeding edge gear faults out doesn't mean it's not ready to use, or that there's something inherently wrong with the product. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find Viper, F900, etc... failures too.

The most important thing, IMHO, is to hire the right people to come with the gear when it's this new & complex. Someone on set needs to be intimately familiar with everything about the camera, software & hardware.

Red is more like a computer than any camera I've used in production, and we all know that computers can be a bit fickle, especially during beta cycles. I made sure that I was familiar with as much as I could be so I was more of a help than hindrance if there was a problem, but most of all I made sure that I hired someone that could solve problems as best as possible. Without that ingredient I would not have felt comfortable shooting with Red.

But after my experience I will shoot Red until something better comes along, because right now I don't think there is such a thing from a pure image standpoint, and I'm not only the producer, I'm the Scratch colorist & post supe, too.

cheers,

john t.

Chris Parker

11-07-2007, 07:13 PM

See....get a Red Ninja (or two)...and all else will be fine....

Bruce Allen

11-07-2007, 07:57 PM

So, how easy is it to see what firmware you're on? If you're on Beta firmware does it display a warning somewhere on the LCD? Of course, if I could download the manual I could answer this question myself. Hopefully Red will rectify his soon.

Anyway, this is a textbook user interface design error if it isn't being done already. Probably a lot of DPs don't expect a camera to crash like that. The camera needs to warn them.

I recommended Red to my buddy for a very big name shoot today and am very, very happy that both he and the DIT / Red owner we rented from were previously aware of the firmware issue... hope v6 held firm for them! I'm stressed out. Haven't heard back from my buddy yet - so I'm still crossing fingers!!!

Look forward to talking about it when we can - something will probably pop up soon ;)

EDIT: got a one-word text message from him - "AMAZING"

EDIT: But this is still too stressful. A director or DP should be totally focused on their job, not worrying about camera stability. Again, I think it'd be a huge help if when they get stressed, they could glance over at the LCD and see a little piece of text on it that says "STABLE" or "BETA" ;) - if there's not screen real estate then just a little icon or something could do...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bill Goehring

11-07-2007, 08:16 PM

So, how easy is it to see what firmware you're on? If you're on Beta firmware does it display a warning somewhere on the LCD? Of course, if I could download the manual I could answer this question myself. Hopefully Red will rectify his soon.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Ah, but you CAN download the manual--right now--by yourself--in your jammies, if you want.

But I read it from front-to-back today, and I don't think its going to help you with your question. I think the firmware version is identified, but I don't recall any mention of a warning on the corner of the LCD about whether a particular firmware version is unstable or not. ;-)

Bruce Allen

11-07-2007, 08:23 PM

Ah, but you CAN download the manual--right now--by yourself--in your jammies, if you want.

Sweet, thank you! Doing some rendering at work right now... this'll be just perfect.

But I read it from front to back today and I don't think its going to help you with your question. I think the firmware version is identified, but I don't recall any mention of a warning on the corner of the LCD that a particular firmware version is unstable.

Gotcha... I'll add it to the "suggestions to improve the camera" thread then.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Joseph Mastantuono

11-07-2007, 08:50 PM

I am the RED tech on a set of an NY indie feature.

The 1st AD's name is Atilla (really).

He hasn't cut my head off (yet).

jimhare

11-07-2007, 08:59 PM

Ah, but you CAN download the manual--right now--by yourself--in your jammies, if you want.

I'm in my jammies and just downloaded it. Thanks, I always thought it was locked up with the software updates for owners only.

Bill Goehring

11-07-2007, 09:03 PM

It was--until the last day or two.

Mark L. Pederson

11-07-2007, 09:53 PM

People are absolutely nuts to be using these on major indie productions without a hell of a lot of testing. These are still basically BETA.

Wait about 6 months before you schedule a full-on RED shoot, IMO.

Well ... in 9 days we wrap our first indie RED feature. We have shot 2nd Unit on two major motion pictures for a studio. The lower budget of the two is over $80 million. In the next sixth months - we'll shoot at least 3 more features on Red.

Life is beta.

(but yes, we do test like hell, almost every day - that's why we bought more than one Red camera)

Blue

11-07-2007, 10:52 PM

Gavin Greenwalt

11-08-2007, 08:35 PM

RCFisher

11-08-2007, 09:37 PM

Well my .02. Geof should have been warned that this is a system still in beta and understand that shit happens for no reason and relay that to the producers and make sure they understand! The job of DP on larger productions these days is more politics than lighting and image composition, mostly managing directors, crews and producers. Most talented DPs are very high strung and don't deal with outside stress well. They tend to be highly focused on the work at hand. That said think beta! I would love to meet Geof some time but he should be ready for issues even with talented DITs.

I worked with a DP in the 80's, i was a 1st assistant at the time, who shot 12 - 3D features mostly on StereoVision lenses (single camera 3D). He had countless stories of the first feature with this lens system. By the end of the feature he could rebuild the lens in his sleep (there was only 1 lens to start with I think they got one or 2 more by the end of the 18 week shoot). It was a massive learning experience but everyone, producer, director, grips, was aware of the untested nature of the gear. Panavision has it's share of issues with their gear. I had to repair a Gold 2 camera on the side of a mountain in North Carolina in the winter on a show in the mid 80's. Panavision cameras were notorious for electronics problems in those days but they made their gear to be serviced easily and included spare parts and training on out of town shows.

Every new camera system, Film, digital or whatever, has its share of troubles which everyone seems to forget these days. I think these days too much money is involved so perceptions are distorted and fingers are on the ready to fix blame. This takes the fun out of making movies.

Jannard

11-08-2007, 09:48 PM

You might want to read what Geoff has had to say in the past two days...

Jim

Brook Willard

11-08-2007, 11:07 PM

Heheh, I take it the problem's solved with non-beta builds and proper representation.

dino g

11-08-2007, 11:46 PM

off topic a bit, glad you mentioned the stereovision lenses, We have most of those lenses now and are retrofitting a BNCR mount to go on our camera to start testing the single camera 3D, which we have used with a lot of success on 35mm cameras over the past 14 years.

know you camera before you rent it and always be prepared for the worst, i.e. have a backup within an hour away if you can...

Mathieu Ghekiere

11-09-2007, 04:30 AM

You might want to read what Geoff has had to say in the past two days...

Jim

What was that?

Laco Zamba

11-09-2007, 04:38 AM

Geoff's blog http://www.cinematography.net/dc/index.html

Mathieu Ghekiere

11-10-2007, 05:14 AM

Geoff's blog http://www.cinematography.net/dc/index.html

Thank you.

geoffboyle

11-10-2007, 11:50 AM

Hi Guys,

Well, I got more support and sympathy here than I expected!

I don't have tim e to be here often, I have CML and a blog to run, oh yeah and there's this shoot as well :-)

I'm posting a blog that is warts and all, if something goes wrong I'll say so, I'll also praise when that is due.

Since my first post about the Red's I have received terrific support including a spare camera from Red.

I have also had the SI's crash, problems with lamps, problems with schedules. all of which I have written about.

I'm happy with the images I'm getting from the Red's and the 4K image lets me plan to move around that image in post.

I do think that it's clear that a number of people here don't understand how a film shoot works.

I have a crew of AC's, tech's etc dealing with the kit, it must be close to ten excluding electrics and grips.

I have yet to touch a camera, I don't so that, I say there to there with such and such a lens and it happens.

I'm not going in to my background again, I have enough experience of both film and digital to get by :-)

I'm working on the bleeding edge because that's where the excitement, the thrills and the best images are.

We'd always anticipated that in the first three weeks we would use the Red's only sparingly and that we would major on them in the studio in the last two weeks.

OK, that's it, I'm off to shoot, mainly with the SI's today because we're very mobile and you can't be with two Red's in a stereo rig. There is one shot that will be done with the Red's.

Geoff

Brook Willard

11-10-2007, 12:17 PM

Thanks for posting, Geoff.

Laco Zamba

11-10-2007, 12:54 PM

Hi Geoff, can you compare SI and RED dynamic range?

Sam Druckerman

11-10-2007, 01:24 PM

Nice to see you on Reduser Geoff.

Looking forward to more posts from you.

Häakon

11-10-2007, 02:05 PM

From Geoff's 11/08 blog...

The Red rig is working well now and we shot some lovely material with it last night.

The pictures are worth the hassle :-)
Nice to see that he's come around.

They all do, eventually. :-)

Dominic Cochran

11-10-2007, 03:25 PM

Now it will be nice to see if everyone ELSE comes around and plays nice...

Good luck with the shoot Geoff, thanks for the great mailing list!

Blair S. Paulsen

11-10-2007, 05:46 PM

I appreciate Geoff taking the high road after my renegade cross-post. I also want to thank the RedUsers who did not go into defensive mode. Geniality and respect are typically the best way to have any conversation, online or otherwise. I hope this is the beginning of a truce between CML and RedUser.

Cheers - Blair

Paolo Tinari

11-10-2007, 06:17 PM

Life is beta.

Nice....

RCFisher

11-11-2007, 11:08 PM

Sorry to get back on so late in the conversation. I did read the whole blog on friday from stem to stern, Just Awesome! Great account and observations from the front lines. It does offer an insight into a larger production. I look forward to following his account.

Most people I talk to just don't believe me when I start telling them real life accounts, most who don't work on movies think we all stand around drinking coffee and complaining about the donuts. I wish I could get on a show like that!

I have been in San Diego for 2 days on a shoot now I'm beat and on to bed. I have a location scout in the morning for a Thursday shoot, EFX elements for some History channel show.