New RedRay bitrate?

[Steven Caesare]

Just listened to Ted's speech to the DCS Workshop (http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/content.php?page=Lighting Workshop ).

In it he speaks about RedRay briefly, and mentiones 20Mb as the bitarate for RedRay.

Previously it had been spoken about as 15Mb. Is the target now 20?

-Steve

[Gunleik Groven]

Interesting... Gearing up for NAB it seems....

[Jonathan Stevenson]

20 is still amazing.

[Stuart English]

Editorializing Ted's comments

"...we decided to add 20Mb/s as an encode option for 4K RED RAY when driving large cinema screens..."

and

"we challenge anyone to spot the difference v's DCP" :-)


For reference it's a 40ft wide screen at RED STUDIOS. And a data rate of 20 Mb/s is less than 10% of a 2K or 4K DCP.

[Steven Caesare]

Editorializing Ted's comments

"...we decided to add 20Mb/s as an encode option for 4K RED RAY when driving large cinema screens..."

and

"we challenge anyone to spot the difference v's DCP" :-)


For reference it's a 40ft wide screen at RED STUDIOS. And a data rate of 20 Mb/s is less than 10% of a 2K or 4K DCP.

Thanks for the clarification, Stuart. Amazing indeed.... can't wait to see it!

-Steve

[Gunleik Groven]

The redcode rgb thingy is the next big thing.

Really looking foreward to news about colorspace and signalchain when developing and grading for RR -> cinematic release.

[Jeremy Torrie]

Let us not forget broadcast please!

I would love nothing more than to have a RedRay recorder to generate masters to, and then downconvert to HD SR.

[Frederich]

is it like the laser pointer (http://www.etech.com/electronics-laser-pointers--c1202_1267)'s red laser pointer.????

[M Most]

Editorializing Ted's comments

"...we decided to add 20Mb/s as an encode option for 4K RED RAY when driving large cinema screens..."

and

"we challenge anyone to spot the difference v's DCP" :-)


For reference it's a 40ft wide screen at RED STUDIOS. And a data rate of 20 Mb/s is less than 10% of a 2K or 4K DCP.

All true, of course. But I would also ask: Does it support FIPS compliant essence encryption and/or link encryption? Is the codec planned to be open sourced? Is the color space defined?

Standards are important and open standards are desirable in a technology driven industry that is constantly changing. That represents a large part of why the digital cinema package was developed and why it has been successful. It's great that new compression techniques can make for better high resolution images, but distribution and exhibition are ultimately businesses that require certain protections to be in place and certain standards to be met in order to ensure that the material will be properly prepared, delivered, and exhibited. I know what I'm saying is nothing new, and you've probably taken it into account, but for theatrical delivery systems to be accepted requires more than nice images and low data rates.

[Tim Whitcomb]

All true, of course. But I would also ask: Does it support FIPS compliant essence encryption and/or link encryption? Is the codec planned to be open sourced? Is the color space defined?

Standards are important and open standards are desirable in a technology driven industry that is constantly changing. That represents a large part of why the digital cinema package was developed and why it has been successful. It's great that new compression techniques can make for better high resolution images, but distribution and exhibition are ultimately businesses that require certain protections to be in place and certain standards to be met in order to ensure that the material will be properly prepared, delivered, and exhibited. I know what I'm saying is nothing new, and you've probably taken it into account, but for theatrical delivery systems to be accepted requires more than nice images and low data rates.

I trust RED did their homework regarding standards and encryption and DRM... but entering (and potentially disrupting that space) all starts with nicer images and better data rates.

FIPS compliance is not all that difficult when working with a lot less data to encrypt. Its more about enduring the bullshit bureaucracy and time wasting with government run agencies . I could be wrong, but i would wager THAT BS is the #1 reason why RED RAY has been delayed... since the nice images and frame rates have been working in beta form for over 2 years at Reduser Vegas 2009.

[Stuart English]

All true, of course. But I would also ask: Does it support FIPS compliant essence encryption and/or link encryption?


I trust RED did their homework regarding standards and encryption and DRM... but entering (and potentially disrupting that space) all starts with nicer images and better data rates.

Yeah we are very familiar with the DCP media protection specs...but RED RAY's low data rates are the lever to open up new market opportunities. At 200Mb/s you have a major headache on your hands if trying to do wide distribution of content, although for a Digital Cinema release that's obviously manageable.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Yeah we are very familiar with the DCP media protection specs...but RED RAY's low data rates are the lever to open up new market opportunities. At 200Mb/s you have a major headache on your hands if trying to do wide distribution of content, although for a Digital Cinema release that's obviously manageable.

more tasty hints, thanks Stuart! I can't be the only one reading between the lines here?! This, to me, is one of the most exciting developments within RED

IMHO DCP is a SMALL piece of the RED RAY pie i, and in many ways, RED must love that nobody is paying attention here. I know I definitely have some BIG plans around RED RAY...but Im not sharing them yet either.

[M Most]

Yeah we are very familiar with the DCP media protection specs...but RED RAY's low data rates are the lever to open up new market opportunities. At 200Mb/s you have a major headache on your hands if trying to do wide distribution of content, although for a Digital Cinema release that's obviously manageable.

i agree, in fact, I've mentioned the non-theatrical markets here myself (corporate displays, event venues, etc.). I was simply responding to the posts here that seem to be fixated on RedRay "replacing" DCP distribution in the mainstream theatrical market.

[Wolfgang Woehl]

I'm constantly flabbergasted about how Red Ray keeps being mentioned in theatrical distribution context by people outside of RED. Am I wrong in thinking when RED themselves/Stuart compares filesize to DCP they rather want to use a high quality benchmark to provide perspective than actually target the market? The tech, as described so far, obviously has great potential. But the one tag you can't stick to it is theatrical distribution.

Why should majors, with their strong commitment to DCI/SMPTE, start paying license fees for proprietary tech? Why would exhibitors care for yet another platform, one that wouldn't even deliver mainstream content? To cut a long list short: There's no way Red Ray could even dent the theatrical distribution market. Which is still, by the way, a "wide distribution" market in my book.

Will there be wide markets for Red Ray? Possibly. I'd say Red Ray is currently in the patent application process, obviously, and a lot will depend on implementation of and politics around those patents. As well as on whether Red Ray decode requires heavy or light iron (Mass market == light iron).

And Jeremy, imho, the second obvious thing about Red Ray is that it's not a mastering codec.

Don't get me wrong. I'm as thrilled about stunning image quality in a tiny package as the next guy. I too think that a delivery codec with those specs is major valuable IP. Now whoever owns rights can go on to make boatloads of money.

Or do something stunning.

[Jeremy Torrie]

I remember asking Jim about RedRay as the next BluRay format (distribution) and he said something to the effect of "Sure, we've considered that" but did not elaborate, which is understandable.

Why they wouldn't pursue it is crazy considering the lead he's taken with championing 4K and beyond...and if I was Jim, I'd be licking my chops at the opportunity to steal away one of Sony's Sacred Cows -a mastering/delivery format...if he's got the desire to do it, he certainly has the brains in house to do it, and that would be amazing -something not even Panasonic was able to pull off with D5.

I say this because the broadcast standard in Canada for HD is SR, and HDCam. Those VTRs represent a huge profit margin for Sony. I have only had to deliver outside of Canada these formats, but perhaps D5 is acceptable to other broadcasters?

[Elsie N]

I'm constantly flabbergasted about how Red Ray keeps being mentioned in theatrical distribution context by people outside of RED. ...The tech, as described so far, obviously has great potential. But the one tag you can't stick to it is theatrical distribution.

Why should majors, with their strong commitment to DCI/SMPTE, start paying license fees for proprietary tech? Why would exhibitors care for yet another platform, one that wouldn't even deliver mainstream content? To cut a long list short: There's no way Red Ray could even dent the theatrical distribution market. Which is still, by the way, a "wide distribution" market in my book...


You may be correct... but if in fact RED Ray WILL be able to exhibit movies as a stand alone, can you imagine the number of new affordable theaters that will spring up overnight? I know nothing of the inner workings of how movies are currently being exhibited, but I think most theaters are an outdated dinosaur like the film cameras they are linked to.

The RED cameras have made content acquisition affordable for almost everyone yearning to make movies. Why can't the same revolutionary change happen to exhibitors?

Does an audience care if there is hundred thousand dollar machinery putting the image on screen or if it is being done by a few thousand dollar machine? No, all they want is the quality. And when it comes to quality, RED is pizza... they deliver.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I'm constantly flabbergasted about how Red Ray keeps being mentioned in theatrical distribution context by people outside of RED. (snip)
Why should majors, with their strong commitment to DCI/SMPTE, start paying license fees for proprietary tech? Why would exhibitors care for yet another platform, one that wouldn't even deliver mainstream content? To cut a long list short: There's no way Red Ray could even dent the theatrical distribution market. Which is still, by the way, a "wide distribution" market in my book. (snip)

First of all, IMHO the current DCI spec was pretty well thought out considering the technical landscape at the time it was created. That said, I contest your assertions about the potential (or lack thereof) for RedRay or another more modern architecture to supplant DCI (as currently used). Better, faster and cheaper usually finds a way (not always - Betamax fans) and I'd bet money somebody at RED is digging though any metadata/security, etc issues that would come into play.

FWIW I can imagine several flavors of RedRay datastreams that might include a 10-15mb/s offering for online distro and a 20mb/s version in a well encrypted container for theatrical. I'm just excited to see any development of critical pieces to the 4K ecosystem and good looking 4K distro at 20mb/s or less would be sweet.

Cheers - #19

[Yannick Verry]

A small question about the sound. Red-ray will obviously propose multi-channels (let's say 7.1 and beyond).
At this time, a 7.1 DTS-MA often tops at 4.5Mbps. For a 2h movie, it's about 3500MO per soundtrack.

Finaly, the final film size will remain pretty big... no ?

[Jeremy Torrie]

I saw joseph's posts showing two RedRays, one that says playback...any more info forthcoming?

When can we put a deposit down in the Red Store?

[Wayne Morellini]

Just listened to Ted's speech to the DCS Workshop (http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/content.php?page=Lighting Workshop ).

In it he speaks about RedRay briefly, and mentiones 20Mb as the bitarate for RedRay.

Previously it had been spoken about as 15Mb. Is the target now 20?

-Steve

I suppose this could be encoding security overhead like just suggested, but notice how the encode rate keeps going up, like somebody predicted. The bigger the screen the more noticeable quality differences. People need to get out of this 48cm television at the end of the room syndrome and realize that the future is a wall sized TV's (2M and over across). I have done work on designing a much more sophisticated codec system than Red Ray, and it is not easy for most professionals/experts to come up with even what Red ray is probably doing (otherwise we would be swimming in them).

Has anybody information on how Red ray works?

So, what does h265 consist of (been too sick to keep up with) there are sufficient technologies in the market now for a great boost?

Thanks.

[Stuart English]

A small question about the sound. Red-ray will obviously propose multi-channels (let's say 7.1 and beyond).
At this time, a 7.1 DTS-MA often tops at 4.5Mbps. For a 2h movie, it's about 3500MO per soundtrack.

Finaly, the final film size will remain pretty big... no ?

Correct, up to 7.1 Channels on the consumer player. And up to 12 Channels on the pro version.

The final "movie" file size is quite small as the average RED RAY 4K data rate is only 20 Mbit /sec

[Claus Mueller]

Does it mean that the RED RAY 2k data rate is 5 Mbit/sec (or a bit more because of some "overhead")?

[Stuart English]

Does it mean that the RED RAY 2k data rate is 5 Mbit/sec (or a bit more because of some "overhead")?

That is a really good question, but we'd prefer to consider what the possibilities are for 4K distribution.

1080p and 2K are the past.

4K resolution is the future.

[Tony Lorentzen]

I'm still having a hard time figuring out how the heck the RED guys have been able to package 24 frames of 4K into a 20 Mbit signal. That's 2.5 megabytes - or just over 100 KBytes per frame of 4K. Pretty amazing stuff!

[Claus Mueller]

That is a really good question, but we'd prefer to consider what the possibilities are for 4K distribution.

1080p and 2K are the past.

4K resolution is the future.
Of course 4k is the future, no doubt. Even YouTube goes 4k and Apple will go retina on all devices. But sometimes you want send someone a 1k, 720p or 1080p preview in a global network.
How about software encoder initially up to 1080p as a plug-in in your browser, think YouTube, iTunes etc.

[Stacey Spears]

Stuart,

The current specs on the RED website say 4k can playback up to 25fps and 2k up to 48fps. Is this still the case? My question is will we be able to play back 3D 4k at 48 fps so that we can one day watch the Hobbit, and future 3D movies, at home in all its glory? If you can't answer today, understood.

[Jeremy Torrie]

What's truly incredible is we have internet access up here at 15Mbits/sec. We're not that far away.

[Stuart English]

Of course 4k is the future, no doubt. Even YouTube goes 4k and Apple will go retina on all devices. But sometimes you want send someone a 1k, 720p or 1080p preview in a global network. .

Yes, but we can give you 1080p HD directly from either version of the player via an internal high quality downscaling engine. Your clients will thank you as the result is 1080p in a visual glory that no-one outside of a production studio or industry trade show has ever seen. It ain't 4K, but it is really good.


How about software encoder initially up to 1080p as a plug-in in your browser, think YouTube, iTunes etc.

There is 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264 for that application - all the NLE systems have that as a standard function.

We do provide .MP4 file decode capability on both of the RED RAY players in addition to RED delivery codec decode. The former therefore allows you to read these 720p or 1080p 8-bit H.264 .MP4 files created for someone to play on their laptop or i-display, but the latter is the high performance proprietary codec that delivers all the visual goodness of a 4K 10-bit RGB source...

[Stacey Spears]

Comcast just launched 105 Mbps. http://www.comcast.com/About/PressRelease/PressReleaseDetail.ashx?PRID=1067

[Stuart English]

Comcast just launched 105 Mbps.

Very nice. So your 120 minute long 4K resolution RED RAY movie will download in about half an hour...