PL Mount and data connection

[Greg M]

In order to align the data connections on my Arri Ultra Primes the lens mounts with the focus scale facing up rather than toward the operator as it should (see attached image).

When the new PL mount is installed is it possible to re-align the data connection so the lenses will mount with the correct orientation toward the operator?

[Steve Gal]

I would like to see this change as well.

[Greg M]

One more question- Is the data connection actually capturing data in the current release?

I don't see any lens information in the metadata.

[chuck colburn]

Most PL mounts have a slot in each of the four ears which allow four different mounting configurations. 90 degrees apart.

[Greg M]

Most PL mounts have a slot in each of the four ears which allow four different mounting configurations. 90 degrees apart.

This is about the data connection, not the PL slots. Yes I can rotate the lens to the correct position in the PL mount, but if I do the Data connection on my lens does not mate the camera body.

EDIT:
I attached two more photos to better illustrate what I am asking for;
1. This is the correct orientation of the lens on the body (obviously "correct" is subjective, but it is the typical position so the operator can see the focus scale)

2. If the lens is in the position shown in the first image the data contacts are not aligned as shown in the second image.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

is there any reason why it is build that way?

[Sanjin Jukic]

How it is with ARRI, Moviecam, Sony, Viper... cameras?

How it is with Cooke lenses and Angenieux Lenses?

Also with RED lenses?

[Greg M]

is there any reason why it is build that way?

Ok, did a bit more research and this is what I learned;

The Red lenses and Cooke S4i lenses have the data port dead center of the two focus scales which is why Red has the port at this position. Arri LDS lenses have the port above one of the focus scales and on the Arri camera bodies they have two data connections 90 degrees apart so you can put the lens in either position.

So the data port is in the correct place if you have Cooke or Red lenses...If you have Arri LDS you are SOL...unless Red decides to add a second connection similar to Arri.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

thanks.....so gear we use really means gear we use

http://www.red.com/gear_we_use

[chuck colburn]

This is about the data connection, not the PL slots. Yes I can rotate the lens to the correct position in the PL mount, but if I do the Data connection on my lens does not mate the camera body.

EDIT:
I attached two more photos to better illustrate what I am asking for;
1. This is the correct orientation of the lens on the body (obviously "correct" is subjective, but it is the typical position so the operator can see the focus scale)

2. If the lens is in the position shown in the first image the data contacts are not aligned as shown in the second image.

Sorry about that. I see what your talking about now. I'm not fimiliar with those lenses but most PL mounts have a slot on the lens side seating surface that mates to a pin or such on the lens itself. This keeps the mount from rotating on the lens. If these are your personal lenses perhaps you could have an additional slot cut on the back of the PL mount to align right on the RED camera.

[Greg M]

Sorry about that. I see what your talking about now. I'm not fimiliar with those lenses but most PL mounts have a slot on the lens side seating surface that mates to a pin or such on the lens itself. This keeps the mount from rotating on the lens. If these are your personal lenses perhaps you could have an additional slot cut on the back of the PL mount to align right on the RED camera.

I can get it to align, its just that when the data connection is aligned the focus scale is on the top and bottom of the lens instead of left/right.

[chuck colburn]

I can get it to align, its just that when the data connection is aligned the focus scale is on the top and bottom of the lens instead of left/right.

Ok, Some lenses have moveable scales. As I said I don't know those primes but you might ask Arriflex about that. Or you could tape mark the footage scale like in the days of yore.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

ARRI has two standard systems that you can apply on the camera the LDM-1 that works with Ultra, variable, standars and super speeds. Then they have the LDM-2 that is compatible with certain lenses from Angenieux and Cooke. These two mounts are usually "mounted" when the camera is rented and they know what lenses are to be ordered. There is other LDM mounts that works with other lenses if you ask for it. I think that we maybe should put in an request that the RED team (god bless their souls :innocent:) that they maybe could consider a solution for this? I myself prefer Cookes but there's a lot of times you need want for example the Ultras. The RED camera so far has been designed to be the ultimate modular "little" beast, so why not squeeze this "little" feature in as well :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:


fred

[Fredrik Callinggard]

My apologies for my bad grammar. I type before I think :poster_stupid:

[Sven Seynaeve]

Looking myself at ultra & masterprimes for the red I would also ask to the Red team being able to use all of these would give us extra flexibility.

I've seen different adapter rings on the arri site, but had not the time to figure it
out exactly .

[Harry Clark]

It's my understanding that Red's metadata will work only with Cooke's "i" or the Red lenses. I think that LDS is a closed system and, although a Cooke "i" lens (and in theory a Red lens) will supply data to an Arricam, the Arri LDS won't supply data to Red.
Could be wrong about this, but I had a conversation with Les Zellan along these lines...
Cheers,
Harry

Digital FX, can you confirm this?

[Greg M]

I can confirm that I dont see any lens info in the Metadata...but I have posted several times asking if they are actually capturing data yet and have not had a response. I assume that the data port is not active yet.

I sure hope you are wrong though as I was really looking forward to having lens info in the metadata for our VFX work. I will be very dissapointed if the LDS lenses arent supported.

[Benjamin Rowland]

Greg (digitalfx), did you ever find out more on this issue?

[Brook Willard]

Looking into the lens mount, it seems like the contacts could be rotated to the proper position. Since the entire lens mount [old and presumably new] can be removed from the camera body, I see no reason why it couldn't be rotated 90˚ to move the contacts into place. Since the contacts are connected with a cable, the cable could be lengthened or shortened as required to put the lens mount in its proper orientation.

Thoughts?

[Greg M]

no, I have not looked at this as to my knowledge the data is not included in the Metadata w/ the current builds...as soosn as someone can confirm this is enabled I will do some more testing.

btw- looking at an arri 435 Extreme it has the contacts in both positions...can anyone w/ REVISED body confirm if this has been added to the ne PL mount?

[Evin Grant]

There are holes at the top but no contacts.

[Mark Pedersen]

Evin, Greg, Brook,

How can we escalate this to the Red team to get a clear answer? According to the Cooke Website, Cooke and Arri collaborated to make the two systems compatible. Seems the Red, with it's open system philosophy should support metadata capture from the two dominant lens manufacturers, who have worked together to create a compatible system for the industry.

Greg, I sent you a PM regarding the Ultraprimes and where you sourced them. Can you get back to me on that? I'm interested in a set, but would feel better about shelling out the dough if I was able to take full advantage the intelligence built into the system.

Thanks guys,

M

[Wes Printz]

I noticed this in early photos of the mount. Initial thought would be install the connectors at the top AND left side of the mount as on the ARRI Mounts, so either system can be used, and the lens mounted correctly. Not all RED owners will be buying lenses, many may be renting as lens choice is generally a decision of the D.O.P.

Next question is... Is there a separate Lens Data display in the works to show approx DOF, lens marks and other data available? or incorporate this info on the LCD / EVF? Possibly plug into the RS232 Port?

[Brook Willard]

Pana-tech, the metadeta from the lenses isn't even captured by the camera at this point. I'm sure a display like that will come eventually, but lens metadata capture is still at least a build away.

As for "escalating" this to the RED team... I'll bet you $10 they've been aware of it for months. Hopefully there's a solution, but I wouldn't expect a mount redesign at this point [as they've just redesigned and shipped a new mount anyways...].

[I Bloom]

If the holes exist for the seperate contacts then it might be possible to mod your mount so that it can take both. I know I'm going to want that, I can think of somebody who I will be doing that type of work as soon as he gets his camera.

Ian

[Greg M]

There are holes at the top but no contacts.

Evin, do you mean screw holes or a hole where a contact could fit?

Can you post a pic?

[Mark Pedersen]

Brook,
What I meant by "escalating" is that it sounds like there hasn't been any response or information coming from Red on this issue, and was wondering if you guys have any influence with Red since you have cameras and/or have been involved in the development process longer than I have.

There are two fundamental issues here that need to be addressed1)can physical contact be made and with the scales in the correct orientation and 2)assuming lens/body contact can be made, does the red software recognize and communicate with the data output from the Ultra/Master lens?

It would seem like the physical connection would be the more difficult problem to solve (there's always a solution in software - just a matter of time and resource allocation - plus there must be some existing data compatibility/standard if Arri and Cooke collaborated on this).

Given the pressure to solve the shimming issue, etc., and to get cameras shipping again, I suspect that Red did not provide two data connections on the new mount. If they had, I would think would have mentioned it in the "announcement" and/or forum discussions. (In fact, the lens data feature seems to have gotten very little attention to date, even though it's an important feature).

So assuming that Red didn't add a second set of contacts (something that should be easy enough to find out!) it would seem the next step would be to see if Arri lenses can be modified or adapted to align to the contact position on the Red without having to deal with focus scales in the wrong position.

Greg, have you checked with Arri to see if there are alternate mounts or a way to rotate the data connection/PL mount relative to the focus scales?

Hopefully there is an existing solution from Arri/Zeiss (like a certain version PL mount) that takes care of the issue. Or something that a qualified lens technician could do as a mod.

Once the physical contact is made, I would think Red could easily support the metadata capture.

So Red guys, can you weigh in here?

I'll check with Arri next week to see if they're aware of the issue and know of a solution.

Thanks all, and Happy New Year!

It should be a fun with new toys in hand :)

[Wes Printz]

I wouldn't expect a mount redesign at this point [as they've just redesigned and shipped a new mount anyways...].

One might think that with a newly designed mount, and 200 cameras shipping, this may have been addressed and the contacts installed in both positions. The engineering, machining, and materials cost alone would be incentive enough to only want to do this once.

From looking at the new mount picture posted by Jim, it appears to have 8 mounting screw instead of 6, which would impede placement of the second set of contacts? I could be wrong here, if I am let me know.

I understand what RED is doing with the open design format, and think it's great. I feel they may be trying bit too hard to deliver as quickly as possible, which is not a bad thing to serve your customer, but the down side could result in hardware updates, which eventually costs RED and the end user time and money, which could be spent in better places. They have been great at responding to customer feedback to address issues found by the first 100 brave souls.

[Wes Printz]

So assuming that Red didn't add a second set of contacts (something that should be easy enough to find out!) it would seem the next step would be to see if Arri lenses can be modified or adapted to align to the contact position on the Red without having to deal with focus scales in the wrong position.


This would be the equivalent to someone building a new compact automobile to compete with the big boys, but making the wheels with 6 lug nuts instead of 4, and having all the wheel manufacturers modify THEIR product to fit yours.

There are things called industry standards for a reason...

[Evin Grant]

Evin, do you mean screw holes or a hole where a contact could fit?

Can you post a pic?

I can on monday when #199 arrives but #102 (Tonaci's) had holes in a small plate but there were no gold contacts like the first 100. My guess is that they will retrofit or send out the part when this feature is enabled.

[Harry Clark]

WHAAAAAAAATTTTTT???
Why would they remove a feature like this on shipping cameras? Metadata on a digital cinema camera is terrifically important. The old film vs. digital debate aside, the Red One has tremendous opportunity to be THE effects camera of choice, with high resolution and wide dynamic range. The addition of frame-accurate lens data makes it a grand slam!!!!! PLEASE don't tell me they've reneged on yet another promise (YES I KNOW IT'S SUBJECT TO CHANGE)
UGGGHHHHHH.
H.

[Greg M]

I can on monday when #199 arrives but #102 (Tonaci's) had holes in a small plate but there were no gold contacts like the first 100. My guess is that they will retrofit or send out the part when this feature is enabled.

so the entire contact is now missing? I thought you were referring to a space for the second one. Why would they remove this?

[Evin Grant]

I don't think they've "Reneged" on anything, calm down! The holes are there so my guess is they want to keep the wear and tear off the contacts till the firmware supports the meta data recording. As far as I can tell they have every intention of including the /i data connection, just in the near future.
It could also just be a fluke with #102, lets wait a few days and see if any of the other X gen cameras have contacts.

[Greg M]

it just doesn't make sense...why remove something that was already there. These contacts should last the life of the camera, they didnt do this to prevent wear. Actually I was hoping we would see the second contact on the new cameras/mounts.

[Mitch Gross]

I can tell you for a fact that Arri is well aware of the issue and has made sure that RED is aware as well.

Mitch Gross
Abel Cine Tech

[Harry Clark]

OK, then... let's hear it from someone in the know... JIM? JARRED? please tell us the contacts are still there...
Cheers,
Harry

[Greg M]

I can tell you for a fact that Arri is well aware of the issue and has made sure that RED is aware as well.

Mitch Gross
Abel Cine Tech

Excellent news!!

[Evin Grant]

Here is a photo of the mount courtesy of Tonaci.
http://www.redninjas.net/mount.jpg

[Mark Pedersen]

So I assume the holes are where the gold contacts are mounted... but why wouldn't the contacts be there? That seems so... well unfinished. Plus the are in the same top position. Any holes 90 degrees from these?

If not, and assuming that a mod or "lens data contact kit" is coming from Red, that still doesn't solve the problem with focus scale positions on Arri Ultras.

Unless Arri has a version of their mounts that place the contacts in the same position as the Red/Cooke.

The plot thickens...

And all conjecture and speculation until we hear from Red directly.

[Wes Printz]

Thanks for the pic Evin,

This does not look like the one Jim posted a photo of a while back. That one appeared to be stainless steel or some other metal. Unless, that may have been prior to a possible black oxiding process.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_mount34.jpg

Also, it does not appear to have the index pin for the lens, unless it is not visible in this photo due to shadowing. As in the original photo... the contact pins are not there either, does not appear to be anything different except the color. Of course only looking at provided photos here.

[Evin Grant]

The mounting pin is the bright dot in the upper right. The metal of the mount has a different sheen than the previous mount, I believe it's stainless.

[Mark Pedersen]

OK, so bottom line, assuming the holes are all there, it doesn't appear that the cameras that are currently shipping will have the /i or LDS mechanics.

So... that means if Red intends to support it, which I assume they will (why else would the have the holes?) then we will either need to send the cameras back to have the contacts/wiring etc. installed, or Red would need to ship new PL mounts out to existing customers (not very cost effective). And of course, release another software build.

I guess I just don't understand why Red wouldn't at least install the damn contacts, etc. so all they would have to do downstream is release a software build that supports the metadata.

[Wes Printz]

I agree, as I posted earlier, cost of engineering, machining and materials would have been enough incentive to do this on phase 2 of the mount on the 200 units shipping. At least install the hardware, address usability later via software as done with the audio.

[Jarred Land]

/i support, when we have fully implemented it (its lower on the list), will be an upgradable part... We removed the pins from the cameras shipping as if we left it in, since it sends low voltages, it would short out when you put a lens on.

Its a pretty easy install, but of course you can send your camera back to Red for a checkup and we can install it when its time... but that wont be anytime soon.

[Harry Clark]

since it send low voltages it would short out...???
buuuttt...
Arri cameras don't short out. LDS and non-LDS lenses get mounted to Arri cameras thousands of times each day. And surely you know that some Red owners will have LDS lenses and some will not. And rental house cameras will go out with all sorts of lenses.
Dalsa uses LDS too.
How exactly will the camera not short out in the distant future when LDS maybe gets implemented??? If it ever does?
Very disappointing. It's feeling more and more half finished in order to rush it out the door...
H.

[Tonaci Tran]

The i/support can come later. To finally have the camera is such a relief.. it would have killed me if they delayed it just for the i/support. So count me in as glad they got them out the door. To each his own, but the build has been solid so far so I would disagree about the camera being half finished.

You do have the option to wait though: "You can choose to not take delivery of your RED ONE in your scheduled batch of deliveries if you would prefer to wait until more features are enabled. When you are ready to take delivery of your camera, RED will deliver your camera after you have made final payment. Your serial number will remain the same."

[Jarred Land]

since it send low voltages it would short out...???
buuuttt...
Arri cameras don't short out. LDS and non-LDS lenses get mounted to Arri cameras thousands of times each day. And surely you know that some Red owners will have LDS lenses and some will not. And rental house cameras will go out with all sorts of lenses.
Dalsa uses LDS too.
How exactly will the camera not short out in the distant future when LDS maybe gets implemented??? If it ever does?
Very disappointing. It's feeling more and more half finished in order to rush it out the door...
H.

If your disappointed Harry, call or email Brent and he will give you a full refund.

and to answer your question, if the port is installed before the camera recognizes it, the camera cant turn the port off when it doesn't get a signal from the lens, and keeps sending power.

i/ support was not part of the camera when you put your deposit down, so its not like we are trying to short changing you or anyone else. Sorry you still feel that way though.

[Harry Clark]

Jarred, please.
I wish that everyone at Red would stop responding to every bit of negative commentary with "Hey, if you don't like it we'll just give you your money back." It's like the nuclear bomb of the Red world.
I'm not asking for my deposit back. I'm not saying the camera sucks. I'm saying that there are a few features that I personally was very excited about, and the LDS connection was one of them. I'm sad now that it's gone (or postponed) I'm sad that rendering is a bigger obstacle than I anticipated.
I'm excited that the PL mount is better. I'm excited the dynamic range is better. I'm excited that the drives seem ready and that 16 gig cards are available. I'm excited that the camera is generating lots of interest and hype, which will translate into lots of rentals for me.
And I'm excited about the journey and the public input into what is normally a closed process at Sony, Arri, Panasonic et al.
But I'm entitled to my opinion. I hope LDS returns. Sorry if you think that means I want my money back. I don't.
Cheers,
Harry
ps- thanks for the explanation of why the port shorts out at present. I understand now.
Cheers,
H.

[David Birdy]

Sony cannot compete with this type of personal service....No one can..
Cheers Jarred & Red team!

[Jarred Land]

Your saying (publicly) your disappointed, and I just wanted to make sure you were aware that we are here to fully support you if you are not happy.. I would hate for you to already be unhappy about the camera before you even receive it since your so close to getting delivery.

And just so we are clear... RED is not an LDS system... RED is an /i system. The first protocol we will support is the /i system.

[Harry Clark]

No. I'm still happy about the camera overall. :) And looking forward to that email about #344.
And sorry about the tone; I get excited about the possibilities and dream the dream and then any little percieved setback gets me going.
And yes, my bad, I keep calling it LDS but what I mean (and mostly care about since I own S4s) is "i".
I think that the way Les at ZGC explained it to me is that "i" is an open platform and Arri's LDS is closed and for all practical purposes impossible to implement by outsiders... yes?
Cheers,
Harry

[Jarred Land]

no worries Harry.. we are here to help. Just want to make sure the camera lives up to your expectations.

[Bill Goehring]

I'm excited that the drives seem ready and that 16 gig cards are available.

Are these two things true? If it's been announced by RED that either the RED DRIVE or 16GB cards are available, I've missed it.

I ask because I expect to begin production on a documentary based on interviews as soon as I receive #348, and being constrained to four-minute loads (or there abouts) will greatly diminish the usability of the RED ONE for my immediate purposes.

[Wes Printz]

And just so we are clear... RED is not an LDS system... RED is an /i system. The first protocol we will support is the /i system.

Thanks for the explanation as to why only one set of contacts, not both. Cooke /i support only, makes sense now.... who's making the lenses???

[Jarred Land]

LDS is (currently) a closed proprietary system, where the /i system is an open standard so other companies can adopt it like (like Red), which is how we put it on our zooms and on our camera. Its the same signals and the same contacts, just different info moving back and forth.

[Greg M]

LDS is (currently)

So Jarred, is this a hint at the future for my LDS Ultra Primes?

[Mark Pedersen]

LDS is (currently) a closed proprietary system, where the /i system is an open standard so other companies can adopt it like (like Red), which is how we put it on our zooms and on our camera. Its the same signals and the same contacts, just different info moving back and forth.

Jarred,

So by a closed system, are you saying Arri won't open it's software interfaces or APIs to other camera manufacturers? But their cameras will accept the data from Cooke /i lenses? So a one way street in?

According to the Cooke press release:
http://www.cookeoptics.com/cooke.nsf/press/ibc2003:

"Cooke and Arri have agreed to make the new Cooke S4/i system compatible with Arri cameras equipped with Arri's Lens Data System (LDS). This cooperative effort will allow Cooke S4/i information to be available directly via the Arri Lens Mount contacts."

According to the Cooke s4 /i communications protocols PDF, the systems are physically compatible if not identical. Clearly there must be a level of software compatibility between the systems if the data is interoperating on the Arri camera.

Currious why, if Arri is cooperating with Cooke to allow their lenses to send input into their camera, that they wouldn't commiserate and open up their software protocols to other camera manufacturers (like Red) so they would benefit from lens sales targeted at non-Arri bodies. Is it because they see other camera manufacturers as competitors—unlike Cooke, which is solely an optics company? (Apparently Arri must not make much on sales of Arri/Zeiss LDS lenses!)

I hope they soon realize that the industry would benefit from a common lens data protocol. I seriously doubt if it would impact sales of their film cameras in any way, and in fact, could potentially enhance sales because the entire industry advances.

Your thoughts?

Any discussions with Arri attempting to open up their system?

[Jarred Land]

thats what i think i said.. the connections are both the same, its just different data.

We have no problem working with Arri, or no problem working to get LDS integrated, but its not that simple.. its one thing to get lenses to talk to to an Arri body because Arri still controls the data... its another thing for Arri to give us the keys to the protocol to implement into our camera. And the ball isnt just in Arri's court , we need to allocate the resources for development and integration.

[Mark Pedersen]

Understood. So for someone contemplating Zeiss/Arri lenses with LDS, is it a reasonable expectation that once other priorities are addressed that Red will make a concerted effort to incorporate Arri's LDS system as well as Cooke /i?

Or should we assume that Red will not support LDS in the future, so if we want a lens system capable of providing metadata, we need to choose Cooke or Red glass?

I know these are ultimately business decisions—and ultimately you may or may not have control of the situation with Arri opening up their protocol, but it would be nice for those of us facing business decisions regarding lenses to know what the Red product roadmap looks like.

Any guidance or at least intent would be helpful.

BTW, it would also be great to get an update on the Red primes. I know you guys have your hands full, but again, to make a decision between Cooke/Arri and Red, it would be helpful to at least know what the target specs are for the Red primes (T-stop, number of diaphragm blades, are they all the same length with consistent focus/iris gears, etc.).. any "tease" would keep us faithful going :)

I have a set on order and hope they will perform exceptionally well against the incumbents.

[Jarred Land]

i know its not the answers your looking for Mark, but there is no real answers to your above questions.. i could make up answers for you, but i would just be, well, making up answers.

I can tell you one thing though.. if you ordered a prime set its gonna be hard for you to be disappointed.. they are heads and shoulders better than what we showed at NAB.

[Wes Printz]

From the Cooke web site:

"Scheduled delivery of the Cooke RED Set begins in January 2008 from Cooke Optics and authorised resellers."

[Mark Pedersen]

OK, I'll take that as "no current commitment" to Arri LDS support, but will remain optimistic given that you're an innovative entrepreneur that loves shaking thing up :)

So back to the Red lenses. OK, so I'm now intrigued. But I don't remember seeing any Red primes at NAB. Just prototype zooms and some mysterious (can't touch those) prime lenses in a display case. Or did I miss something?

Anyway, is there an update on shipping date? Any specs you can share? Will they be T2 or T 1.3s? What's the bokeh like? C'mon, give a little :)

[Brent J. Craig]

The other thing about Arri's closed/proprietary LDS system is that licensing it is not cheap. I have heard they charge Cooke $1500 USD per lens to include LDS. On a $17,500 camera body it may be cost prohibitive.

Licensing LDS for use on a body that directly competes with their expensive new D20 might be very difficult indeed.

I think most people are realizing that open standards are much better for everybody involved.