Extreme Slow Motion

[Joe Walker]

I don't mean to sound like a complete and total dumbass, but I've gotten a little confused reading the boards lately. From what I've read, and please correct me if I'm wrong, 60fps in 4k, and 120fps in windowed 2k for slow motion photography is possible, albeit the camera must be tethered to a RAID drive. I've searched around and there seems to be some confusion on the subject, probably just me confused. I don't mind being tethered to another drive for this, just curious if this is the case. I mostly shoot music videos and slow motion is a must for my line of work. Any help you guys can give me on this subject, or verbal beatings would be appreciated. THanx.

Joe W.

[Finner]

I have come to understand the same thing Joe.

4k- speeds greater then 30fps thethered to a max of 60fps.

2k- speeds greater then 60fps tethered to a max of 120fps.

The specs are always changeing though, but this was the info I last saw.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yep... To get 31 to 60 fps for 4K or 61 to 120 fps for 2K, it must come out of the "RAW port" on the camera. From what I understand is there's two issues at play here. One, the internal processors can't quite keep up with the data rates needed to process and deliver this data via the other connectors (like the eSATA variant - supposedly - for the RED DRIVE). The second issue being that the RED DRIVE and other current on-board recording options can't handle the write speeds necessary to record these faster frame rates.

So, given the limited info right now, I think it's safe to assume that the faster frame rates and 4.5K recording will need to be tethered to a system that can parse and record the incoming data stream. I don't know if that entails just a RAID or other storage system with enough bandwidth to handle it or if there needs to be external processing as well in the form of a computer that can "capture" and process the data stream and then record it to the appropriate RAID or storage volume.

I would assume that with the modular nature of RED One combined with the ever increasing abilities of storage media and CPU power, that on-board recording of these formats will eventually be possible. Not this year, probably not next year, but after that, who knows...

[Andreas Fernbrant]

I do extreme sports, I'm also one of those who need extreme slowmo.
What happend to RED-RAM? For me mobility is an huge issue, I'm never going to fly to a location with a RED RAID.
Unless it turns up to be really small.

How about a slowmo drive? Some contraption you plug into the slot (Flash, RAW, RAM slot)
It buffers frames out to a RAM that in return records to a hard drive in a pace that the drive can handle?
(Could be one unit - RED-SLOWMO) In most common situations a 1 minute max "brun" would be enough.

[Brook Willard]

A few of us have been asking for such a device - something of an outboard frame-buffer/REDCODE compressor - but there's been no official word. Maybe it will exist, but for now it doesn't.

[Jared VanLeuven]

You can overcrank to 120fps if you go down to 720p (EDIT - onboard, untethered).

[Stephen Williams]

I do extreme sports, I'm also one of those who need extreme slowmo.
.

Hi,

Not sure if 120 fps can really be described as extreme slowmo. I have often shot sports at 500fps with a Photosonics actionmaster.

Stephen

[Joe Walker]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who's in this boat. For me being tethered is not a huge issue, until a director tells me that he needs a steadicam shot going down a hallway at 60fps. But it would be incredibly helpful to have some kind of way to shoot high speed un-tethered. Stephen, what kind of sport requires 500fps?! The highest speed I've ever been asked to shoot was 120fps. I think you can call 120fps extreme slow mo. I would think 500fps would be like........insane slow mo!

[Finner]

A few of us have been asking for such a device - something of an outboard frame-buffer/REDCODE compressor - but there's been no official word. Maybe it will exist, but for now it doesn't.


This would be a great system Brook it seems like a frame-buffer system like you mention would also be an easy upgradable bolt on part. As it evolves and gets larger and faster in combination with flash and hard drives you probably one day would be able to see 500 and up short bursts. Tools like that would also probably be a great rental unit as you would only need them in specific situations.

The upgradable options this camera can have are really remarkable. I am very excited about this camera in the first place and if the RED team continues to come up with RED upgrades that improve the camera and it's uses every year, well lets say it would take a bit to get used to.

[Stephen Williams]

Glad to see I'm not the only one who's in this boat. For me being tethered is not a huge issue, until a director tells me that he needs a steadicam shot going down a hallway at 60fps. But it would be incredibly helpful to have some kind of way to shoot high speed un-tethered. Stephen, what kind of sport requires 500fps?! The highest speed I've ever been asked to shoot was 120fps. I think you can call 120fps extreme slow mo. I would think 500fps would be like........insane slow mo!

Hi Joe,

At 500 fps any movement looks very different not just slowed down. You can see the shape of a tennis ball change as it hits the racket. If you want your shots to look very different then 360 fps + is needed.

Stephen

[Tom Lowe]

As I understand it, the write speed to the drive is not the issue. The bottleneck right now, if I recall Graeme correctly, is the chip/processor not being able to compress the 4K 31+fps fast enough onboard the camera.

Hopefully this means that the processor chip can be upgraded as chips naturally become more and more powerful, to allow for a gradual increase in 4K REDCODE RAW framerates, hopefully up to 60fps.

Overcranking is so essential these days. Many of us are really spoiled by the HVX or 35mm cams.

[Vlado Struhar]

I agree,

I was shoting 2000fps for music video in 1,5K res. We were crashing flower wase and it was a snap in realtime. But when I saw it played back it was incredible. Fragments of glass were rotating in the air like if there was no gravity.

If there is anyone interested I can upload it to my ftp...

We were shooting it on a special digital camera that could store 1 sec of footage at 1000fps. In windowed mode (160x120 - not much usable :) ) it was able to run 100 000fps! Now, that's called insane slo mo.

Vladus
www.vladostruhar.com

[Tom Lowe]

By the way, as long as we're on the subject, does anyone know what type of cable will run from the RAW data port to the RAID? Ethernet?

What type of tethered distances will be realistic? Could you have someone on a steadycam 300ft away from the RAID?

[Vlado Struhar]

It would have to be 10Gbps ethernet to be able to push >300MBps

[Vlado Struhar]

The only storage solution we have in our studio that is so fast is our 4 lane eSATA raid (cca 450 MBps).

[Stuart English]

The plan is to offer (at least as an option) single mode fibre, that way the distance between camera and recorder can be up to several kilometers.

[Andreas Fernbrant]

The way I see it, 2K windowed to the "buffer" would be enough. 720P is too much of an compromise for me.
I would like to be able to do native 1080P footage thus 2K is needed.

[Chris Kenny]

The plan is to offer (at least as an option) single mode fibre, that way the distance between camera and recorder can be up to several kilometers.

Can you shoot REDCODE RAW to an external RAID, if you stick to the same limits as internal recording (30 fps @ 4K, etc)? Seems to me there might be some applications where off-board storage at a significant physical distance from the camera is desirable, but where you don't need uncompressed.

[Tom Lowe]

The plan is to offer (at least as an option) single mode fibre, that way the distance between camera and recorder can be up to several kilometers.

Thanks, Stuart. I've never dealt with cable like this. Is it delicate? Easy to work with? Expensive? Can you tell us more about it? Or anyone who knows about it.

[Alex Boothby]

Stephen, what kind of sport requires 500fps?!

Croquet. Curling. Cricket. Any C-word activity..
Chess.

[Ace]

Hi Joe,

At 500 fps any movement looks very different not just slowed down. You can see the shape of a tennis ball change as it hits the racket. If you want your shots to look very different then 360 fps + is needed.

Stephen

Theyve installed those new 1000fps broadcast cameras here at the Australian Tennis a couple of weeks ago, and I gotta tell you.. seeing the playback after each shot, you could literally see the tennis racket wobble like jelly and bend in unimaginable ways after hitting the ball. You see the muscles on the players faces contract in realtime! Trippy shit. Now all I need to watch the tennis is some good acid.

[Alex Boothby]

I worked on the film The Cell where we shot photosonics of a wet dog shaking blood off its body - at 900 fps that was the craziest thing I ever did see. Spooky.

[Ace]

I worked on the film The Cell where we shot photosonics of a wet dog shaking blood off its body - at 900 fps that was the craziest thing I ever did see. Spooky.

I thought the cell had some of the most brilliant cinematography ive ever seen. Kudos!

[Joe Walker]

So you guys shot that with a photosonics at 900fps?! Wow. What about the blood drops hitting the pool, what frame rate was that at? I remember watching the making of portion on the DVD and it referred to the scene where J-Lo hovers down was shot at 120fps with an Arri 435. Incredible stuff, and good job to all of you guys by the way.

[Charles Perkins]

You can overcrank to 120fps if you go down to 720p (EDIT - onboard, untethered).

is this to the red drive?

[Nick Shaw]

is this to the red drive?

Yes it is.

2k at 120fps will only be possible once the RED RAID becomes available, and that is off-board recording

[RobRoySyd]

If anyone's interested in extreme slo mo check these guys out: http://www.cordin.com/

Their cameras made a very large contribution to the development of the atomic bomb. Today's best cameras are good for well over 1 million fps although not many frames at that speed :biggrin:

There's a good article here http://www.popsci.com/popsci/printerfriendly/science/51580b4511b84010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html on Cordin and the guys behind it, sound a bit like an older version of the Red team.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Cordin cameras are awesome. ...It's just cool that they use gas turbine engines to spin their mirror system fast enough to process all those frames.

I got to see one of their cameras in action a few years ago in a tour of a ballistics lab. I really wanted to play with it, but it was a totally hands-off tour. :(

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Hi,

Not sure if 120 fps can really be described as extreme slowmo. I have often shot sports at 500fps with a Photosonics actionmaster.

Stephen

Yes, Stephen is right: I shot tests for a boxer or did some foodstuff with a digital Slowmo. The Boxer was shot with 1000p/s

http://www.elementp.ch/en/portfolio/innovation/the_boxer.php

Or watch this Trailer: At the end, there are to people and waterscenes: This was shot between 1000 and 2000

http://www.elementp.ch/en/portfolio/commercial/trailer_commercial_en.php


So, if RED will handle in the near future at least 500 frames, that would be great.

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

There you go>

http://www.pstechnik.de/en/weisscam.php

I wonder why no one talks abut them. 950 fps at 720p.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

There you go>

http://www.pstechnik.de/en/weisscam.php

I wonder why no one talks abut them. 950 fps at 720p.

Thats exactly the technology I used.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

But there are others, like

http://www.cine-speedcam.com/

It's a bit tricky, but it works

[Tony Lorentzen]

There you go>

http://www.pstechnik.de/en/weisscam.php

I wonder why no one talks abut them. 950 fps at 720p.

Maybe because it's rediculously expensive and picture quality isn't that great. Ofcourse - there's always something very captivating about seing things in real slow motion.