eSata storage solutions for MacBook Pro? [Archive]

Peter Richardson

11-08-2007, 02:53 PM

Hey guys,

I am going to purchase some sort of storage solution before the end of the year that is compatible with my MacBook Pro, and wonder if anyone has suggestions. Right now I'm thinking I'll connect an external RAID system to an esata/Expresscard adapter for external storage. I will also be using a Gigabit ethernet tape backup like the Quantum SDLT 600a. Right now I'm looking at two possible RAID solutions:

http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?pid=10906

or

http://www.g-technology.com/Products/G-SPEED-es.cfm

I am partial to G-Tech's products -- own many and have never had a single problem. The only catch is that, without the RAID controller, I will be limited to RAID 0 or RAID 1 functionality. With the Lacie, I could have RAID 5, though the transfer speeds are slower (187 MB/sec vs .250 MB/sec for the G-Speed).

I'm not extremely concerned with RAID protection as all footage will first be archived to DLT or LTO, but I would be a little concerned about running a RAID 0 with so many drives (my understanding is that the failure rate increases proportionally to the number of drives in this configuration).

Anyway, I'm curious to know if there are other solutions out there I should be considering. I know many will say I should get a MacPro, but with the kind of work I do it's really important for me to be on a laptop. Most of what I edit will probably be ProRes 422, but I will also want the option to edit 4k. When the new MacBook Pros with much faster chips ship (supposedly) some time middle of next year, about when I expect to receive my Red, I will upgrade to that.

Thanks in advance for your input!

Peter

Simon Blackledge

11-08-2007, 03:03 PM

I've had nothing but problems with Lacie so I steer clear.. other opinions will vary like everything else though.

I have found quite a few options to consider..

e-sata
http://www.enhance-tech.com/products/desktop/t4h_cr.html
Raid 5 on board.

Also.. another option is over Dual_Gig_E
Slower> yes.. but with a small router you can have 4 or 5 people looking at the files.. once they are on the raid.. anyone can get to them and not interrupt the archive guy.

http://www.enhance-tech.com/products/desktop/t8ip_interoperability.html

Si

Peter Richardson

11-08-2007, 03:14 PM

Thanks for the reply Flameop. I checked out that esata drive -- looks good. I did notice that the transfer rate was only 80MB/sec. Would that be fast enough for 4k redcode? Thanks,

Peter

Cail Young

11-08-2007, 05:09 PM

REDCODE RAW at 4K is around 25MB/s, so 80 is heaps.

Mike McCarthy

11-08-2007, 05:22 PM

What are you planning to use to connect them to your MacBook Pro? They both require 4 eSATA ports.

CalDigit's HD Pro should be the ideal solution for you, in that it is big and fast, but it is more expensive. It has Raid 5 controller in the array case. PCIe is the way of the future.

J. Bernard Vallon

11-08-2007, 05:24 PM

REDCODE RAW at 4K is around 25MB/s, so 80 is heaps.

Remember that the maximum datarate is seldom attained, check to make sure that 80 MB/s the minimum sustained speed, and not the max speed.

We've been using these at the photography studio with much satisfaction.

http://www.newertech.com/products/gmax.php

I've had nothing but problems with Lacie so I steer clear.. other opinions will vary like everything else though.

Me too.

Peter Richardson

11-08-2007, 05:37 PM

C.H.Haskell

11-08-2007, 05:55 PM

No go for Lacie, I cant keep those things around long before they die on me. I have been using a FirmTek SeriTek/2SM2-E (http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-2sm2-e/) card with a firmtak 2xHDD enclosure and this was a cheap solution for me at the beginning but I soon realized I needed an enclosure that had not only sata but firewire 800 and the other connections as well.

I really like the express/34 route but is it just me or is the macbook pro express slot finicky? My Sata express card will eject on its own, it barley stays in the slot and throws my drives offline...makes me worry.

Looking for a good mobile RAID set up myself...thanks for sharing.

Jeff Kilgroe

11-08-2007, 09:17 PM

Mike McCarthy

11-08-2007, 09:35 PM

I'm branching OT a bit here, but I just had a nasty run-in with a Western Digital My Book Studio 1TB drive. It has FW800/400, USB 2.0 and eSATA interfaces on it. A single WD 1TB 7200rpm 16MB buffer HDD is inside of it.

I won't bore with the details, but don't buy this product. It's junk. Even though it was the "Studio" edition that's billed for studio and business use.

Care to go into more detail? I just bought one and am in the process of filling it. I am not worried about transfer rate, as it is for archive, but any reliability issues concern me.

Peter Richardson

11-08-2007, 10:21 PM

sbaechler

11-09-2007, 01:30 AM

Here are a few RAID systems from a german distributor. They are made for field work and all have handles to carry them.

Interfaces are eSATA, SCSI, iSCSI, Fire Wire 800 or USB-2.
http://www.mh-service.de/Forensic-PORTABLE/foresic_storage.htm

Jeff Kilgroe

11-09-2007, 08:12 AM

Care to go into more detail? I just bought one and am in the process of filling it. I am not worried about transfer rate, as it is for archive, but any reliability issues concern me.

I had serious problems with my transfers just hanging up intermittently when connected via FW800 to both a G5 Quad and a Macbook Pro. I swapped the drive for another, tried different cables, tried just using FW400, still the same results. I did try it with USB 2.0 on the MBP and no troubles for nearly 4 hours that way, but I didn't buy it for the USB interface. I completely lost all data on this drive on one lock-up instance. I had to re-partition and format. This was under OSX 10.4

The included smart-power driver for USB / FW connectivity doesn't work under Leopard either. WD is "aware" of the issue... But haven't bothered to release an update even though it was pointed out by Leopard beta testers months ago.

Smart power isn't an issue with eSATA as it's not supported in that mode. The drive is intelligent enough to at least not power itself off in the middle of reading/writing data when connected via eSATA. That's something that happened to me twice with FW800 -- it just went into standby mode because it felt like it. But I only tested eSATA briefly from a Windows system, I don't have any Mac with eSATA on it right now.

Anyway, after my experience with this drive, I can neither trust nor recommend it. And with two separate units on two different computers doing the same thing when all my other external drives work just fine. Too bad, the price on this drive is great. I bought the MyBook Studio 1TB at Best Buy for $369 (regular $399). The same WD drive that's inside of it sells bare for $325 from most online vendors. FWIW, I've heard mostly bad things about the Gig-E NAS version of this drive.

Lexicon

11-12-2007, 03:02 PM

Id second jeffs experience. I used to think WD's were good drives, but i havent had good experiences with the Mybooks -- corrupted P2 clips etc. Too bad because rhey are really cheap at costco. Looking forward to that caldigit though :) anuone recommend a vendor for those?

Peter

WD's are popular because they are cheaply made. WD also makes a lot of those "private label" drives that are repackaged from their excess inventory. That's the primary reason why OEM's use them for their PC builds. I don't know anyone I've ever worked on a contract with saying Hitachi is my new favorite company. They jumped on the 1TB bandwagon and ran off! It's a shame the Seagate 1TBs have been disappointing. They've had all sorts of nasty problems with their newer drives lately but people love that five year warranty.

Chris Parker

11-14-2007, 10:00 AM

Go CalDigit all the way. Great products. Great service.

Also, Peter, how do you plan on connecting the Quantum SDLT BAckup drive to your system? i figure your FW BUS will be used up with a CF Card reader, and your pci port will be used up with your e-sata controller. Not quite sure how the quantum products work (connection-wise) myself, so looking to see what your solution is....

Peter Richardson

11-14-2007, 12:15 PM

Great to get your endorsement of the drives. I will be placing an order for the 8TB version today -- very excited. Regarding the Quantum 600a LTO, it connects via Gigabit Ethernet, which is the main reason I'm going with it instead of a different solution. Have to maximize every port on the MacBook Pro!

Peter

Chris Parker

11-14-2007, 12:17 PM

Great news on the GB Ethernet connection. Now I can truly max out my MacBook Pro, as I was considering LTO3 as well. Cheers.

Peter Richardson

11-14-2007, 12:24 PM

Yeah, I think that Quantum LTO drive is a great way to go for laptop people, as long as you don't mind the price. That being said, I got an incredible deal from Michelle at Custom Supply Inc -- mid 6's when the next nearest quote was high 7's. Michelle handled the group purchase of OConnor gear that Steve Tammi put together. They are awesome. Let me know what you decide to do and if you get the drive.

Peter

Chris Parker

11-14-2007, 01:16 PM

Sounds great Peter. Will do, and when the time is right, I might hit you up for your contact to get that sweet deal.

Steve Sherrick

11-14-2007, 02:39 PM

Here are drives to avoid in almost all situations:

1. Lacies. The only ones that seem stable are there Rugged series. I have seen too many others die.

2. Western Digital. Just had to hand one back to a client and say I can't work with it. It was a My Book 320gb. Heard lots of problems with their drives and I don't trust them. I do have one of their passport USB drives and It's great.

3. Seagate external firewire drives. The ones I have tested go to sleep quite often, no matter what you have your settings at. I think I read that this is due to saving wear and tear on them but it gets annoying when you don't want it to be sleeping. Takes a couple of seconds to wake up. Maybe they are not all like this but it's enough to make me say avoid them. Otherwise, I dig their products.

4. Maxtor. Don't like the externals I've used.

So what drives do I like.

Firewire: Other World Computing, GTech, especially GRaids
eSata: CalDigit has been on my list of ones to try out. I will also look at some of the other ones that have been mentioned.

Richard, I am looking into the same kind of configuration with the DLT drive running of ethernet and a Raid running off Express slot.

Steve

Brian Broz

11-14-2007, 02:46 PM

Steve Sherrick

11-14-2007, 02:52 PM

Caldigit all the way!
Been using the S2VR duo with my 17" (1920x1200) Macbook Pro. If you purchase one, it includes the eSATA Xpresscard adapter.
No complaints or issues using in the field (other than a bit of fan noise).
Hope that helps,

BB

Brian, the only issue I think is the best sustained data rates you can achieve are 100mb/s correct?

This may not be a problem for what we are trying to accomplish in the field with the Red Camera, but for editing purposes, no uncompressed HD solution as far as I can tell.

Steve

Chris Parker

11-14-2007, 03:18 PM

you are right steve. not with the s2vrduo. but caldigit has a whole line to suit any need you may have.

Steve Sherrick

11-14-2007, 03:22 PM

I think it's actually the limit of the eSata card that's the problem. I don't think there is a solution out there that I know of that can handle rates much more above that. The Raids themselves can handle uncompressed HD with some of their higher end products but the bottleneck is in the card. If I'm offbase here, someone please chime in. This is how I understand it.

Steve

Chris Parker

11-14-2007, 03:37 PM

It looks to me like with the S2VR Duo, you can do uncompressed SD (or ProRes) as a max. But with the S2VR HD, you can do uncompressed HD. I think you can hook these up to the laptop with the same connector.

http://www.caldigit.com/S2VRHD.asp

For the HDPro, I think you need a tower. But I could be wrong.

Chris Parker

11-14-2007, 03:41 PM

I was wrong. This is cool. You CAN hook up the HDPro if you want to your laptop, and I believe since the RAID controller is built into the Hard Drive, you can do uncompressed HD on your laptop. Although the last piece of the puzzle is the speed of the eSata interface.

"The CalDigit ExpressCard (eLane-1ex) easily plugs your HDPro into your MacBook Pro, or PC laptop, and enables you to edit ProRes 422, DVCProHD, DVCAM, HDV, uncompressed SD and up to 10 bit uncompressed HD."

from this wicked page:

http://www.caldigit.com/HDPro.asp

Steve Sherrick

11-14-2007, 04:08 PM

I was going by their specs on this page.
http://www.caldigit.com/FASTA-1ex.asp

Which says
"The only SATA ExpressCard that is designed for Video Editing. This adapter supports DV, HDV, DVCPRO HD, 8-bit and 10-bit SD video workflows."

But perhaps there isn't a bottleneck in the card. Has anyone tested with this yet? Have you been able to edit uncompressed HD using the HD Pro on a Macbook pro with this esata card? I am very interested if this is the case. I'm interested in it regardless, but the ability to do some uncompressed HD in the field would be cool.

Steve

feb31films

11-16-2007, 10:01 AM

Id second jeffs experience. I used to think WD's were good drives, but i havent had good experiences with the Mybooks -- corrupted P2 clips etc. Too bad because rhey are really cheap at costco. Looking forward to that caldigit though :) anuone recommend a vendor for those?

Peter

I've been editing DVCPro HD (p2) on my Macbook Pro for about 4 months with zero problems. Using one of WD MyBooks (on deep discount at Best Buy) and connected with an Express34 card from Lycom which I bought here (http://www.macgurus.com/productpages/sata/Exp34-Cardbus_Index.php)
SO far it's been awesome. Will be upgrading to a true RAID soon and that CalDigit looks tasty! Incidentally, Macgurus is a reseller of those drives.
But there was a good point made about the MyBooks: connect with eSata to avoid that nasty powersave mode.

Jeff Kilgroe

11-16-2007, 10:40 AM

All of my problems with the MyBook Studio model I was using seemed to point at the SMART Power functions.

Anyway, the power functions are disabled when connected via eSATA and that could be all that's needed to make a functional unit.

I have just ordered a CalDigit 2TB (2 drive) unit and it comes with a PCI-E eSATA card that will work in my G5 Quad and in the Mac Pro I intend to buy as soon as Apple updates their line. I also ordered the CalDigit ExpressCard eSATA adapter -- newegg.com has that EC adapter for < $80. I had to do some serious digging to find someone who actually had the 2TB unit in-stock though. They're hard to find.

I have also had good luck with my G-Tech units. I'll see how the Caldigit compares, but it looks good and in some ways it looks better. I have a 500GB G-Drive Q that is excellent, but I've never used it with eSATA, only FW800/400.

Peter Richardson

11-16-2007, 11:57 AM

Hey guys,

I just purchased the CalDigit HDPro 8TB unit with the esata adapter. MIchelle at Custom Supply got this for me for 8600 -- good deal I think. She was able to get the Quantum 600a LTO (not the DLT) for 6350. Another great price based on my research. I should get these some time after Thanksgiving and will do some tests regarding throughput and report back.

I am also a big fan of G-Tech drives (all I use now) but they didn't have anything that compared to the CalDigit HDPro, IMO. CalDigit also uses Hitachi drives, same as G-Tech.

One important point regarding the Quantum drive: apparently Quantum is doing some deal b/c the LTO drive is new, that whatever vendor gives you your first quote and logs you into their system as "theirs" must sell you the drive, even if you call another vendor and get a lower quote. I know this sounds ridiculous (it is). Just make sure that if you do call around for quotes, you don't give them a name. I did call around, and no one could beat Custom Supply's price (they did the group purchase for OConnor gear that STeve Tammi put together). Not sure if other vendors logged my name, but I'll be buying it under my company, so I'm safe. I'm also buying a Fuji lens from Custom Supply at a killer price (just over $23k for a 13x4.5). Good people.

Peter

Steve Sherrick

11-16-2007, 11:59 AM

Jeff, looking forward to your tests with this configuration.

Steve

Huckster

12-02-2007, 07:31 PM

Peter Richardson

12-03-2007, 11:50 AM

I think your disk array probably doesn't have a RAID controller built in. What brand is it?

luis bustamante

12-03-2007, 03:03 PM

Hi Peter,

I'm wondering if you got the quantum drive already and how is it working via ethernet. Any info you may want to share will be highly appreciated.

Thanks!

SalaTar

12-03-2007, 04:04 PM

http://www.wiebetech.com/home2.php

Huckster

12-03-2007, 09:23 PM

the unit is a Cavalry Personal Disk Array CADA002SA4 2TB 4 Drives SATA RAID 0 to RAID 5 System

the controller? a Rosewill eSATA express card 34
I can't seem to get a very good answer from either Rosewill nor Cavalry. I have been told that an Addonics RAID5/JBOD eSATA ExpressCard 34 might work.

Huckster

Jeff Kilgroe

12-03-2007, 10:00 PM

HELP!!!!
I have a MacBook Pro & I just bought a 2T disk array. I also bought an express card 34 to go for it to work on my laptop. Come to find out, I can't run RAID 5 on my MacBook Pro. I don't understand!!!! If you can help, please reply! I am new to this list and to to forums. I have a huge paper weight siting here.

For OSX, software based RAID 0 (striping), RAID 1 (mirroring), or RAID 0+1 (both together). If you want RAID-5, you have to buy a RAID unit that supports it internally or a RAID controller that can support it. Software RAID is slow anyway and I would recommend the proper RAID system or controller route.

You must have at least 3 drives to do a RAID-5 array, I don't know of any ExpressCard 34 controller that has more than 2 eSATA ports and trying to run a RAID-5 from the controller through an eSATA enclosure with a port splitter isn't the most efficient way to do it either. Best to get an external RAID that handles RAID configurations internally and has a single eSATA connector to run to a conventional eSATA card. The CalDigit S2VR RAID units are excellent, BTW.

Jeff Kilgroe

12-03-2007, 10:11 PM

Hmmm...

The Cavalry RAID unit supposedly comes configured as a RAID-5. Weird that it doesn't work. Then again, it's a bit on the cheap side and doesn't exactly have stellar reviews. Get what you pay for, eh?

Peter Richardson

12-04-2007, 01:35 AM

Hey guys,

I am picking up my CalDigit HDPro 8TB and Quantum 600a lto drive tomorrow. In order for the Caldigit to work with my MacBook Pro, I had to get the elane-1ex ExpressCard adapter, which apparently are fairly hard to come by right now. Supposedly I will see transfers up to the limit of the Expresscard bus, around 180 MB/s. If I decide to get a MacPro, I'm told (by CalDigit) that the HDPro is doing up to about 380 MB/s. Anyway, I will report back and let everyone know how it goes!

Peter

Jeremy Newmark

12-04-2007, 07:02 AM

Hi Peter,

I'm wondering if you got the quantum drive already and how is it working via ethernet. Any info you may want to share will be highly appreciated.

Thanks!

We've been using the 600a for the last 4-5 months. It is a great little drive. Because it's ethernet based, it allows you to move it around to various systems (both PC and Mac) very easily. It uses a simple ftp interface which is very easy to use. It's pretty quick when dealing with large files, but if you have a lot of small files, it can take awhile to transfer them back and forth.

Jeff Kilgroe

12-04-2007, 09:59 AM

Peter, the Caldigit EC34 eSATA adapters are pretty easy to find. Newegg sells them for $75. They're nothing special either. It's a common card, re-branded. My H2VR duo worked flawlessly at LART off two other brands of cards.

Let us know how the HDPro works!

luis bustamante

12-04-2007, 10:26 AM

We've been using the 600a for the last 4-5 months. It is a great little drive. Because it's ethernet based, it allows you to move it around to various systems (both PC and Mac) very easily. It uses a simple ftp interface which is very easy to use. It's pretty quick when dealing with large files, but if you have a lot of small files, it can take awhile to transfer them back and forth.

Thanks a lot for the info. Exactly what I was hoping to hear.

Peter Richardson

12-04-2007, 01:52 PM

Hey Jeff,

That is what I thought, too. Apparently the elane-1ex is a much different card than the Fasta-1ex. I spoke to the guys at CalDigit and it is a $500 card. They are not making them yet but will be come February, so the one they sent me is from another manufacturer. I just got my CalDigit today and am consolidating a bunch of footage to it now. Setup was a breeze and the connection cable on the elane-1ex is really robust. If anyone can recommend a utility to test the transfer speed I'd be happy to run it.

Once I'm done with consolidating I'll be trying out the 600a.

Peter

Jeff Kilgroe

12-04-2007, 03:56 PM

You're right Peter, sorry for posting the erroneous info. The eLane-1ex is a different card and is required for certain configuration of the CalDigit arrays -- like the HDPro. I was just thinking of my FASTA-1ex while typing on my iPhone at the airport. :) Not to knock the FASTA-1ex though, it works just fine and is priced comparably to other good ExpressCard eSATA cards with the same or similar options / chipset.

Do let us know how the HDPro works. I'm seriously considering one of the HDPro RAID systems here.

Peter Richardson

12-04-2007, 04:16 PM

No worries Jeff! Made the same mistake myself and ordered the Fasta-1ex, but the reseller, Custom Supply, along with CalDigit caught the mistake and sent me the elane, instead. Both great companies to work with. So far the HDPro has been working flawlessly. Let me know if there are any benchmarks you'd like me to run. I think I'll be selling all my G-Raids ;)

Peter

Dan Blanchett

12-09-2007, 07:28 PM

Any testing results or feedback yet on using the Caldigit with a MBP?

Peter Richardson

12-09-2007, 07:37 PM

Working great so far. If anyone can suggest a benchmark utility I'd be happy to run it.

Peter

Jeremy Newmark

12-10-2007, 07:30 AM

AJA Kona System Test

http://www.aja.com/html/support_kona3_swd.html

Peter Richardson

12-10-2007, 11:01 AM

Thanks Jeremy! Here's what I got:

Write: 167.3 MB/s
Read: 179.4 MB/s

I think this is nearing the max speed of the Expresscard bus. Let me know what you guys think.

Peter

vincelucero

12-10-2007, 11:13 AM

Thanks Jeremy! Here's what I got:

Write: 167.3 MB/s
Read: 179.4 MB/s

I think this is nearing the max speed of the Expresscard bus. Let me know what you guys think.

Peter

nice! how do you like the lto?

Peter Richardson

12-10-2007, 11:19 AM

LTO is great -- though it really slows down when writing a bunch of small files. But you can pretty much set it and forget it, so it's not too much of an issue. Nice buying 400GB's of storage for $40 :)

Peter

Gerry Curtis

12-10-2007, 04:13 PM

Thanks for posting your speed tests-was that configured at Raid 5?

Peter Richardson

12-10-2007, 04:24 PM

yes, RAID 5.

Gerry Curtis

12-10-2007, 04:53 PM

That's good to hear, thanks!

riverrunner

12-22-2007, 11:43 AM

New to forum, ? To anyone. Looking for a raid 1(2x500gb) solution for my digital x rays for my hospital cases away from office. It will act as my server in office as well. My PC software requires a usb key(not best for travel) Have been looking at the cal digit and the g safe. I need something that has background for being transported and safe. Any thoughts on the storm drive? I run all macs in my office, but will be running my intel macbookp in bootcamp because issues with parallels and some of my digital sensors.
Reliabilty is my biggest concern. Files are no more than 10mb(being very generous most are 5-6 or smaller). Thanks RR