I need closure

[Jeremy Hughes]

Okay, this is going back a bit. Will the firmware updates eventually add onboard 1080p/1080i and 720p RGB?

Couldn't find the old thread.

[Jannard]

Firmware updates will be done for 1080P and 720P (not 1080i). They will be Special firmware builds (separate from 4K and 2K) won't be done until sometime in 2008.

Not sure why you would ever want these... but we will do them.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Last night I gave an hour and a half presentation to a big meeting of Portland's industry on the Red. The big point I gave was to think of Red's footage as a digital negative, 4k as 35mm and 2k as 16mm, then to convert at will in Red Cine.

It's a really great way to approach it, shoot your negative, then convert to whatever you want. It keeps the process simple, pure.

[Greg M]

I like that Shawn!

[Chris Parker]

Me too. Also, let's let the RED team work on the REALLY important stuff....like getting all the video outputs hot at the same time.....hint hint :innocent:

[Samuel Doyle]

thanks Shawn,

suddenly it all seems so clear.....


S

[HD Hildebrand]

Last night I gave an hour and a half presentation to a big meeting of Portland's industry on the Red. The big point I gave was to think of Red's footage as a digital negative, 4k as 35mm and 2k as 16mm, then to convert at will in Red Cine.

It's a really great way to approach it, shoot your negative, then convert to whatever you want. It keeps the process simple, pure.

I agree, that's exactly how I've been describing it. You may see a movie on regular 480 when it's viewed on an SD broadcast, but the original neg was shot on 35mm. It looks amazing when converted down and even more amazing when up on the big screen.

[Häakon]

The big point I gave was to think of Red's footage as a digital negative, 4k as 35mm and 2k as 16mm, then to convert at will in Red Cine.
What's this Red Cine you speak of? ;-)

[Shawn Nelson]

What's this Red Cine you speak of? ;-)

Oh gosh, don't even get me started. I was asked in front of the crowd "So when is Red Cine coming out?"

Without missing a beat I replied "Three weeks ago"

[Gunleik Groven]

WOW!

So you're betatesting RedCine, I guess.

G

[Nathan Buxton]

Firmware updates will be done for 1080P and 720P (not 1080i). They will be Special firmware builds (separate from 4K and 2K) won't be done until sometime in 2008.

Not sure why you would ever want these... but we will do them.

Jim

Will they still be recorded with redcode raw? They would then need to be processed for colour/contrast prior to broadcast, no?

And also.. once you make this firmware will you be making another "I was wrrrrrrrong" thread? :P

[Dalibor Fencl]

Last night I gave an hour and a half presentation to a big meeting of Portland's industry on the Red. The big point I gave was to think of Red's footage as a digital negative, 4k as 35mm and 2k as 16mm, then to convert at will in Red Cine.

It's a really great way to approach it, shoot your negative, then convert to whatever you want. It keeps the process simple, pure.

That's exact. 4k as 35mm and 2k as 16mm.
But let's continue, 1080p as HDTV professional video camera, 720p as HDV consumer video.

It's about versatility, possible recording time and speed of workflow.

[Omnius]

. . . 1080p as HDTV professional video camera, 720p as HDV consumer video. . . .

720P as a Consumer video?

I think your a little misguided there buddy:biggrin:

I've never seen a consumer camera in 720P
Most consumer cameras out there have been sporting the inherently evil 1080i label.

720 Progressive is a Professional format.

JVC GY-HD 250 (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101625), JVC GY-HD 250 Libre (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101715) etc etc

Nothing near as good as Red, but nowhere near the consumer spectrum

[Andrew Benz]

That's exact. 4k as 35mm and 2k as 16mm.

I do agree with this on the surface, but it is only a starting point ( I understand where Shawn is coming from when speaking to large audiences though- the minutia gets in the way of being succinct...) when making statements like that I think more explanation is needed to take that concept further and to be more accurate.


But let's continue, 1080p as HDTV professional video camera, 720p as HDV consumer video.

This would fine if all 1080p and 720p were created equally across the spectrum of camera manufacturers... this is simply not even close to being the case. Would you think a Varicam and a canon hv-20 similar? No. It seems they take many different paths depending on costs, target markets and end users for many different reasons to be simple.


It's about versatility, possible recording time and speed of workflow.

Now this is something that I can get behind and evangelize... :)

Cheers,

Andrew Benz

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've never seen a consumer camera in 720P

:huh: JVC GY-HD1U & HD10U

That's as consumer as it gets, was 720p and was the first HDV camera on the market. Sanyo and some other manufacturers of very consumer-orientd products, have had 720p offerings. Some available in the states or in Europe, some only within the Japanese / Asian market.

But I'm just picking nits. You're right that most all consumer market systems have been "1080i".

[Jeremy Hughes]

Don't forget Sanyo's High Definition Xacti and Canon's PowerShot TX1.

Now, I probably won't be using them all that much anyway. Especially if cropped 2K 120fps onboard comes along. I'll probably only use them when it's something that's not that important that I'm recording. Or for when I'm working on an older system.

I just wanted to know. On the first version of their website, they said something like "Not ready for 4K? Dial it back." And then it said 1080p/i and 720p or something. He he... I remember the lowest resolution recordable onboard was going to be 1K.

[Paul Hazlett]

Last night I gave an hour and a half presentation to a big meeting of Portland's industry on the Red. The big point I gave was to think of Red's footage as a digital negative, 4k as 35mm and 2k as 16mm, then to convert at will in Red Cine.

It's a really great way to approach it, shoot your negative, then convert to whatever you want. It keeps the process simple, pure.

I can help but get a picture of Shawn, looking like his avatar picture giving the presentation, saying is "is it warm in here or just me?"

[Jiri Bakala]

Most consumer cameras out there have been sporting the inherently evil 1080i label.

720 Progressive is a Professional format.


...as opposed to..? what? Interlaced? Interlaced, whether we like it as a format or not, has been used as a professional format for decades. Besides, formats on their own are neither professional nor consumer. When Haskell Wexler shot 'Who Needs Sleep' on PD100 and PD150 (in interlaced miniDV), the 'format' in his hands surely didn't make his work non-professional, did it? Likewise, I have seen people shoot with HD100 (720 progressive) and there will be some using Red as well, whose results will hardly qualify as professional. Sony's HDW730 (1080i) and many other cameras are surely professional eventhough they only use interlaced formats.

[Shawn Nelson]

WOW!

So you're betatesting RedCine, I guess.

G

No, I was being sarcastic about how Red announced the release of Red Cine a month ago and now we haven't heard anything about it, I have yet to see it.

[Shawn Nelson]

I can help but get a picture of Shawn, looking like his avatar picture giving the presentation, saying is "is it warm in here or just me?"


Lol, my avatar was taken of me in the center of Edinburgh Scotland, in March.

[Rocco Schult]

720p is recommended by the EBU (European Broadcastign Union, more or less same than SMPTE for most of you guys). Consumer or not, it will be broadcast standard over here in one way or another. In 50p flavour. Stations are preparing for it already. I am on consulting for a TV series here and the request is 720p50 for the master.
I don't like it at all, but thats the res we need to put our work out at.

[Brent J. Craig]

Firmware updates will be done for 1080P and 720P (not 1080i). They will be Special firmware builds (separate from 4K and 2K) won't be done until sometime in 2008.

Not sure why you would ever want these... but we will do them.

You need to remember that even though Red One is in a class by itself, for many projects it is competing against normal HD cameras.

If Red shot good 'ol 1080p in some sort of normal file format I could probably sell TV commercial clients on it for every job. "It's like an F950 but you don't need the $100,000 deck", "It's like a Varicam but does true HD res", "It's like a Genesis but several thousand dollars less to rent". You get the idea.

It is fantastic that Red can shoot 4k. The people selling cereal to kids watching Saturday morning cartoons don't care.

[Anders Holck]

EBU isn't really recommending 720p.
What they do recommend is a system capable of 50p, and not 50i.
As 1080p50 is not available for broadcast yet, they recommend stations to use 720p50 for broadcast until it's available.

They do push really hard for the set top chipset producers to make 1080p50 a reality though.

[GlennChan]

If Red shot good 'ol 1080p in some sort of normal file format I could probably sell TV commercial clients on it for every job.

What about looking at it this way:
You are shooting a digital negative that you can process into what you want (e.g. downscale to HD). You can also do repos on the footage if you like. A similar idea to film (but not exactly of course). And it's not like people complain about film having "4k" resolution (or whatever resolution you think film is).

Can you not sell your clients on that?

Or do they need one of the benefits of shooting 720p or 1080p. Higher frame rate, a quicker turnaround (or something else).

[R. Gonzales]

What about looking at it this way:
You are shooting a digital negative that you can process into what you want (e.g. downscale to HD). You can also do repos on the footage if you like. A similar idea to film (but not exactly of course). And it's not like people complain about film having "4k" resolution (or whatever resolution you think film is).

Can you not sell your clients on that?

Or do they need one of the benefits of shooting 720p or 1080p. Higher frame rate, a quicker turnaround (or something else).

Hey Glen,

Sound good but sometimes it's like "I want a tape at the end of the day attitude.

IMO any producer who is looking for 1080 footage to take back to their shop to edit for broadcast, at the end of the day won't be willing to pay for the extra time to down convert 4K files. At that point they might as well just shoot on a Sony.

And yes that same producer could accept 4k files and have their editors convert the footage but how long is it going to take? I believe in what Red is doing and its great for shooting features and commercials and even some Music clips. However, when shooting EFP and concerts, the turnaround can be ridiculous at times. Check out Queens of The Stoneage,

(http://entertainment1.sympatico.msn.ca/Music/Molson/QueensOfTheStoneAge)

From production to delivery in 3 days.

I would have loved to shoot that in 4K Mullticam set-ups with Red's excellent dynamic range. Having the ability to shoot in a HDTV format opens up more doors (not just the commercial/movie bus) and expands the cash flow. I hope you understand.

Made for TV productions in Canada is increasing and with a population just over 32 million people the budgets aren’t there and we need to be competitive.

Method

[GlennChan]

Was the Queens of the Stoneage concert shot by Frameblender? I remember Tim mentioning a shoot where they used a number of HVXs/P2 and.... craziness. And I think they are planing their future concert projects to be shot on Reds. Them being a FCP shop, it makes a lot of sense.

If the workflow is what I think it will be (with FCP and other quicktime-capable apps)... you will be able to do your offline edit *without* transcoding. And then from there you have to conform and output (the conform step might be slower than the P2 workflow).

2- IMO the Red can be suited to EFP and concerts (and Frameblender is getting a Red for that purpose).

If you look at Frameblender's model, what they are doing is pretty cost effective. They're avoiding most of the overhead in owning big iron systems (FCP/AE/Shake/Color online), no cute receptionist, and they can keep their investment in VTRs down.

Shooting with Red is in line with that. You don't need to own decks for ingest... and depending on how the workflow pans out, you should be ahead compared to shooting on a F950 (which would arguably give the same technical quality). And then you don't need to own/rent HDCAM SR decks.

2b- The data-based workflow of P2 probably helped compared to tape-based (where you need to capture in real-time) in terms of turnaround. Ultimately you may or may not be ahead compared to tape (depends on your workflow).

[Allan Stallard]

Hey Shawn, I'm wondering why you describe 16mm as 2K when deliverables for 35mm cinema are mostly 2K, and many times even delivered on SR 4,4,4 HD tape.

[Joe Carney]

What I've been telling people about RED is that RED with RedCine is to video what a very high end DSLR and Adobe Lightroom are to still images. They usually get it, even if it's not 100% accurate. Saves a lot of explaining.

[R. Gonzales]

Was the Queens of the Stoneage concert shot by Frameblender? I remember Tim mentioning a shoot where they used a number of HVXs/P2 and.... craziness. And I think they are planing their future concert projects to be shot on Reds. Them being a FCP shop, it makes a lot of sense.

If the workflow is what I think it will be (with FCP and other quicktime-capable apps)... you will be able to do your offline edit *without* transcoding. And then from there you have to conform and output (the conform step might be slower than the P2 workflow).

2- IMO the Red can be suited to EFP and concerts (and Frameblender is getting a Red for that purpose).

If you look at Frameblender's model, what they are doing is pretty cost effective. They're avoiding most of the overhead in owning big iron systems (FCP/AE/Shake/Color online), no cute receptionist, and they can keep their investment in VTRs down.

Shooting with Red is in line with that. You don't need to own decks for ingest... and depending on how the workflow pans out, you should be ahead compared to shooting on a F950 (which would arguably give the same technical quality). And then you don't need to own/rent HDCAM SR decks.

2b- The data-based workflow of P2 probably helped compared to tape-based (where you need to capture in real-time) in terms of turnaround. Ultimately you may or may not be ahead compared to tape (depends on your workflow).

Glen,

As a person who shoots for Frameblender I am in a very good position to know what their plans are. Tim is planning to shoot a Live Multi cam event on the Red shortly (on CF cards no less), but has no future plans to shoot all of his concerts on any one format.

Of course I have advised against this but true to form Tim will just carry on as he always does.

As for camera ingest at 1080 I just don't see what the problem is. Is there a problem?

Other companies that farm out their post to their favorite avid editor is going to be looking for a format they can relate to. And the thought of shooting for 12 or more hours and collecting about 3 hours of 4K footage then having to down convert for 9 hours that I wont be paid for is money out of my pocket.

I am not sure how you plan on dealing with the down convert after you shoot for one of your clients but if you have e some secrets please shear. But if you own your own post house then this is a mute point. I am not trying to start a fight :) I am just looking for answers on saving time and money.

I think that the Red one could be a future proof camera system with it’s ability to be upgraded with both hardware and software. But unless you own your own post facility and your not just a owner operator when shooting HDTV content your going to get burned financially if producers are unwilling to pay for you to baby sit a down convert (time = money).

At least that’s my experience in the field.


Method

[GlennChan]

As for camera ingest at 1080 I just don't see what the problem is. Is there a problem?
No I don't think so.

Other than the issues you'd have in either case... can you dump THAT footage into an Avid easily? (I guess we'll see what Red will do.)
Hopefully that won't involve dumping the material onto tape. (Which some people are doing with P2.) That would suck... (but then again it'd still be workable).

2-
your going to get burned financially if producers are unwilling to pay for you to baby sit a down convert (time = money).
Well they're going to have to pay for that... otherwise they can't edit their footage (or the editor needs to get on FCP and learn that). No?

[R. Gonzales]

2-
(or the editor needs to get on FCP and learn that). No?

Yes!!

And that has been the biggest issue. Avid editors (not all) who are refusing to open their minds and learn FCP. This would make Life so much easier. And I am tired of holding peoples hands. Any way I am looking forward to Shooting on RED 1178, it’s going to be a wild ride.

Method

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What about looking at it this way:
You are shooting a digital negative that you can process into what you want (e.g. downscale to HD). You can also do repos on the footage if you like. A similar idea to film (but not exactly of course). And it's not like people complain about film having "4k" resolution (or whatever resolution you think film is).

Can you not sell your clients on that?

Or do they need one of the benefits of shooting 720p or 1080p. Higher frame rate, a quicker turnaround (or something else).

You are also forgetting VFX. There is a pretty noticeable amount of time that gets taken up by delivering a 1080p vs 720p master. So yes you have the negative and can go back and render out a higher resolution copy of the footage later but deciding if you want the extra money spent on VFX for a 1080p "futureproof" copy may not make sense if the subject matter is time sensitive.

[GlennChan]

And I am tired of holding peoples hands.
Well some people say that about FCP editors. ;) It just happens that a lot of FCP editors don't come up the traditional way and therefore there are certain things they don't know... like making a proper EDL for online.

Ok digression over. :D


You are also forgetting VFX. There is a pretty noticeable amount of time that gets taken up by delivering a 1080p vs 720p master. So yes you have the negative and can go back and render out a higher resolution copy of the footage later but deciding if you want the extra money spent on VFX for a 1080p "futureproof" copy may not make sense if the subject matter is time sensitive.
I don't think that's the issue here. (?) If you shoot 4K, you can do your VFX at whatever resolution you want. It might even be better to send the 4K original, and let the compositor use the extra resolution (and lack of compression) if it's beneficial and downconvert themselves.
e.g. If you stabilize the image, then it's slightly better to start off with 4K.

[Clint Johnson]

Sorry if this has already been covered and I missed it despite daily, near religious, scouring of this forum - it may not even be a doable workflow and I am making a fool of myself (not the first time and won't be the last)... but how good are the Quicktime proxies themselves? Are they just good enough to run through and NLE to generate an EDL or would they suffice for a render out of the NLE as finished work where the trade offs favour time over quality and the customer can't wait for REDCINE to render out?

Does REDQUICK wring them out of the r3d file with great alacrity due to being even divisors of the resolution leading to the 2k, 1k, .5k files or can it be coded to kick out quicktime files that are 1920x1080 and 1280x720?

If it is a matter of being even divisors of the captured resolution- and there is the possibility of custom formats - could the Red be set to record at 3840x2160 so as to let REDQUICK easily throw out the proxies in standard HD resolutions?

I may be missing the functionality here since I don't have my Red yet or access to the software... but as long as the r3d files and the proxie files are kept together would the editors be able to use the proxies this way in their NLE of choice for the quickest edit and output of HD possible?

[Michael Booth]

Firmware updates will be done for 1080P and 720P (not 1080i). They will be Special firmware builds (separate from 4K and 2K) won't be done until sometime in 2008.

Not sure why you would ever want these... but we will do them.

Jim

Simply put, I have corporate clients who don't need anything originating in any more than 720p - and will be encoded for DVD. They are totally happy with work shot with the HVX200/RR M2 35mm adaptor at 720p. As you can fit a lot more on a CF card at 720p there's no real point to shooting in 2k or 4k. Not for those jobs anyway.

It will be great to have a camera that I can shoot those jobs with in 720/1080p, shoot a film in 4k and do higher end corporate work in 2k. All in one it covers all bases.