Laser Projection

[Steve Johnson]

After hearing what Ted was saying at NAB about a 4K Home laser projector, this is now being reported by some if the Apple websites that Apple has filed a patent for laser projection for laptops, computers, phones and tv's.

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/04/16/apple-patents-hybrid-laser-projection-technology-for-use-in-lapt/


I haven't read the patent yet but would seem that laser projection might be the way forward if Apple is looking into it.

Thoughts?

[L. Langer]

It's been a foregone conclusion for years. Nothing new. Every big player in the HDTV and projector market has laser-based designs in their portfolios and Mitsubishi released their LaserVue projection HDTVs some time ago while several projector makers have released laser-based projectors in the past few years. The quality is there though there are some issues with high-resolution laser-displays but the physical size requirements for the technology (which are bulky projection TVs when you get right down to it) is the primary reason why you haven't seen them brought to market since they can't really compete with the smaller footprint of LED/LCD displays.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Mitsubishi has patents for laser projection as well. They initially demoed a DLP rear-projection HDTV using lasers about 5 or 6 years ago at CES. Never released a product. Patents are a funny thing. When it comes to most high tech type stuff, you can patent a specific design or way to do something, but an underlying concept typically remains open. Lasers are an established light source used for a great many things. Apple or even RED are not the first to seek patents for something that uses lasers, even projection, and they won't be the last.

I can't wait to see what RED comes up with! I really don't care if it uses lasers or not... If it gives us pristine 4K images and can be priced in-line with other high-end home theater projectors, that's a win. I'm hoping it will also be good enough to use for color work.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Problem with all projectors is you have to be in a blacked out room. Your screen has to be very bright which means it has to be almost black. This is fine for about 5% of home theaters I've seen.

Projection is a non-starter for the vast majority of the market. Rear-projection can get darker but still not as dark as an LCD or Plasma and you still have focus and geometry issues in rear-projection which destroys sharpness and usability as a UI display. Not to mention rear-projection normally has terrible viewing angles.

For my uses I don't want to sit in a black room while watching movies or TV during most of the day and I don't have the room for two viewing areas. And I'm what I would consider one of the more demanding customers when it comes to displays. So I'm not surprised that Lasers haven't caught on. Who wants milky washed out blacks or who wants to black out their living room? If a 4k Projector was under $2k I would consider getting one just for when I want to move my flatscreen out of the way and go wall sized cinema but otherwise I'm sticking with a flat-screen.

[Steve Johnson]

Mitsubishi has patents for laser projection as well. They initially demoed a DLP rear-projection HDTV using lasers about 5 or 6 years ago at CES. Never released a product. Patents are a funny thing. When it comes to most high tech type stuff, you can patent a specific design or way to do something, but an underlying concept typically remains open. Lasers are an established light source used for a great many things. Apple or even RED are not the first to seek patents for something that uses lasers, even projection, and they won't be the last.

I can't wait to see what RED comes up with! I really don't care if it uses lasers or not... If it gives us pristine 4K images and can be priced in-line with other high-end home theater projectors, that's a win. I'm hoping it will also be good enough to use for color work.

I am with you Jeff on the hoping it will be good enough to use for color work. I think if you look at RED from acquisition using RED One, Epic, Scarlet, post production - third parties, through to distribution with REDRay then these are all professional tools. Jim said that RED are a professional company and it would make total sense for their projector to be color accurate. If e REDRay does DCP (which they are saying it will) then it makes sense to have color accurately on the projector. It will be a great addition to view dailies, editing with, sound mixing with, color correction and viewing of final delivery.

[AnthonyFlores]

I'm eager for one as well, though personally just as much as professionally. My limited experience with them this NAB at both the Red and Sony booths -- which has been far superior to both any recent home viewing OR theater experience -- totally sold me. Besides, however fast technology is moving, it's going to take a while before a decent sized 4k display to be sub $10,000. If Red's projector gets us to 4k < $10,000 first, I'm all for it!

Anthony

[mikeburton]

This is more exciting to me than the new camera systems. I really hope these can come to market in a year or less. If it's priced under 25K and is color accurate, delivering enough brightness and 4K Resolution put me down for one ASAP! I've quietly hoped RED would come to market with their own line of projectors for quite some time now and I know they'll deliver on the specs/price ratio. I've been contemplating a 2K Barco for some time now and I'd love for a less expensive and hopefully smaller alternative to arise.

[Simon Dunne]

Jim, buy the rights to SED!!! I'm sure you can make your money back many times over and still beat the competition in terms of product application. Projectors are good, grade 1 8k monitors are even better ;)

[Peter Versey]

I've been looking forward to a really good reasonably priced laser projector (and eyepiece !) for some time.
The advantages of laser projection are a much larger colour gambit, more exact colours, brighter image with increased contrast, fewer parts , sharper pictures ,
no costly lens, no expensive lamp replacement down the line.
You can see where Kodak have been going with this at
http://avscience.com/2010/12/kodak-laser-projector-presentation/

It should be better and more affordable, so hopefully Red will not charge us all too much for it when it arrives in the RED Shop : )

Peter Versey
UK camera operator/DP

[Ivan Kovax]

Just a follow up on this:

I was not able to attend NAB this year, and have heard much talk of this projector, red dragon, mission control...

Despite the early stage, does anybody have some more specifics regarding this 4K laser projector? What does RED mean by "home projector"? does this mean a theater projector will be coming somewhere along the line?

I remember in the early days Red spoke of releasing a 4k projector, but that project was put on the back burner for a while. I am very excited about the reboot of this idea!

I have a feeling that Red will soon be a household name, and not just among tech geeks :)

[Steve Johnson]

Ivan

No specs on the projector. It was just announced that they where working on 4K laser projector. That's it.

Speculation - priceless

For everything else, there's MasterCard! :-)

[jake blackstone]

I am with you Jeff on the hoping it will be good enough to use for color work. I think if you look at RED from acquisition using RED One, Epic, Scarlet, post production - third parties, through to distribution with REDRay then these are all professional tools. Jim said that RED are a professional company and it would make total sense for their projector to be color accurate. If e REDRay does DCP (which they are saying it will) then it makes sense to have color accurately on the projector. It will be a great addition to view dailies, editing with, sound mixing with, color correction and viewing of final delivery.

RedRay and DCP are two completely different things. The only common aspect of both being an image delivery method.

[Steve Johnson]

RedRay and DCP are two completely different things. The only common aspect of both being an image delivery method.

Jake

I think what I meant was that if REDRay plays DCP files.

Steve

[Ivan Kovax]

Ivan

No specs on the projector. It was just announced that they where working on 4K laser projector. That's it.

Speculation - priceless

For everything else, there's MasterCard! :-)

I'd do with even some priceless speculation right now :)

[Steve Johnson]

Ivan

Well for what it's worth, I'll still go for the fact that Jim has stated that RED is a professional company, so I'll bet that anything shot on RED (either a R1, Epic or Scarlet, will look great through this projector. I would guess that it might be high end home user / low end professional. But I think Red knows that if they release something that is affordable, yet professional enough to Color grade on, then added that we can watch all our 5K footage / final films through a projector - they will sell a bucket load. Hell, I'd even put one in the edit bay, one in the sound mixing room and another..... Oh I'd take 4/5 straight away.

But hey....its mindless speculation :-)

[Ivan Kovax]

Steve,

For what its worth I tend to agree! But you know... what Red is doing is very interesting. I am sure Jim has his sights set on big things. Sure it started with One camera. But now we are getting Red Studios, Red Ranch, Red Ray (both home and pro) home laser projector... and lastly, Red just produced their first real short movie...

There are interesting things in the works in Orange County, I'll tell you that much :)

Ivan

[Axel Mertes]

Jake

I think what I meant was that if REDRay plays DCP files.

Steve

I think the entire concept behind RED RAY stands or falls with the fact if it plays DCPs or not.
Its a fact that theaters will not invest in two concurrent player systems. DCP is the defacto standart right now and so both the studios and the theaters will use DCP in the first place.
So the the only way to spread a new format to the theaters is by making a player that plays DCPs and the new format (RED RAY or whatever it will be called in the end) and does all this at an unbeatable price level.
Having a matching projector along makes just sense, but for theaters thats a totally different beast than a home system.

Anyhow, if RED RAY PRO does not play DCPs it'll be a niche product. If it plays DCPs, it will take the theaters by storm, for sure.

Axel

[Larry Kelly]

I was under the impression that Red Ray Pro not only plays DCP but also allows one to author DCP using the output to utilize something like the 4K Laser projector to proof the work. This I am very excited about as it will allow small independents to author their films in DCP and play them on the primary projectors in local theatres instead of having to premier their films on the screen door laden digitals typically available for local releases. Making this available at our local film Co-op will be able to make this service available to our members at an affordable price. We also have an Epic coming, can't wait!

[Steve Johnson]

I think the entire concept behind RED RAY stands or falls with the fact if it plays DCPs or not.
Its a fact that theaters will not invest in two concurrent player systems. DCP is the defacto standart right now and so both the studios and the theaters will use DCP in the first place.
So the the only way to spread a new format to the theaters is by making a player that plays DCPs and the new format (RED RAY or whatever it will be called in the end) and does all this at an unbeatable price level.
Having a matching projector along makes just sense, but for theaters thats a totally different beast than a home system.

Anyhow, if RED RAY PRO does not play DCPs it'll be a niche product. If it plays DCPs, it will take the theaters by storm, for sure.

Alex,

I would agree and I am sure it will play DCP. It is interesting to read on the Red website the features for the RedRay:

"REDRAY™, the first choice for bringing RED into every home. Representing the ultimate in home theater playback and offering RGB HD, 2K and 4K playback to projector or panel through its consumer friendly HDMI connectors, REDRAY™ supports CF card and SSD media, USB-2, Firewire 800 and e-SATA. With 7.1 channel 24-bit audio and on-screen menu overlay, REDRAY™ will be the standard for digital cinema delivery in every environment."

That last statement would seem to indicate that this is just the start - "will be the standard for digital cinema delivery in every environment" - so I will go to say that I predict that RedRay will do DCP - at least for the Pro version.

As for the laser projection, I think if Red are going to these lengths to produce a 4K Laser Projector, then it will be the first version for "home cinema" - with maybe a cross over into post houses as a cost effective alternative to a Barco / Christie. My biggest hope is that it allows for color accurate grading so we can use it in a Red post workflow. Of course being able to view your hourlies on a Red 4K projector would be awesome, and viewing your final output on it would be great two. If it allows for the color accurate grading, then I would buy at least 4 - one for the editing room, grading room, sound mixing room and viewing theatre.

Guess we'll find out sometime in the future...

[Stephen Gentle]

That last statement would seem to indicate that this is just the start - "will be the standard for digital cinema delivery in every environment" - so I will go to say that I predict that RedRay will do DCP - at least for the Pro version.

I think the idea of RED RAY is to replace DCP.

[Steve Johnson]

I think the idea of RED RAY is to replace DCP.

I agree - I just think that there will be a hybrid version first offering both DCP and RED.


Its a fact that theaters will not invest in two concurrent player systems. DCP is the defacto standart right now and so both the studios and the theaters will use DCP in the first place.
So the the only way to spread a new format to the theaters is by making a player that plays DCPs and the new format

I would agree with Axel that to get theatres onboard, a hybrid would work as the might not go with the 2 players. Unless the RED format is adopted by all studios for releases, but then every digital theatre in the world would HAVE to adopt it. No I know Jim Cameron got all the digital theatres adopting 3D for Avatar, and it worked. Not saying it won't for RED, I just think there will be a phase in approach with a dual player that will play RED format (whatever that becomes - RedCode) and DCP.

[Wayne Morellini]

Ah, an interesting thread.

There are a few different types out there. and a few on the market for a while. One that is like one of my old desgns is from www.microvision.com/showwx/ Not the best way to do it, but such a design could yeild a 4k display, particularly with some redesign cheaply. Forgot to mention, I think it was them that have a good chunk of laser projector patents from aquiring another large portfolio from a competitor. It also can take more powerful lasers for bigger screens.

I've previously been designing product concepts, and the technologies for them. I've come up with many new display concepta, but been concentrating on laser projection in particular, withnsomewhare over one hundred different desgns. A few years back I realised it was possible to design a large screen 4k display for realistically $80. 8k I do not know how easy it could be, the bigger the easier to increase resolution to some extent. I just came up with another refinement to it the other night. I also managed to come up with an ultimate laser projector concept, but am unsure of the physics on this. I've taken a section upto 100% efficency, and the other section should be able to reach close to 100%, I might have a design for that somewhere already. This is important for the long charge life products I am interested in, even watches. I have some interesting hybrid reflective display tecnology towards this too, and this afternoon have devised a system for a foldable many segment display with practicaly invisible joins, but with samsung's recent foldable oled display development it might be irrelevent.

I forgot to mention, I have been devising a mechanism to do a cheaper 4k display shortly (this year) as a touch editing surface. But nothing compared to what I could do with a few million in investment.

The industry is catching up with some of these ideas slowly, but this sort of stuff has been doable for years, it is only the laser efficency issues that restricted.

The problem is Red have not been hiring all the right people.

[Wayne Morellini]

It's been a foregone conclusion for years. Nothing new. Every big player in the HDTV and projector market has laser-based designs in their portfolios and Mitsubishi released their LaserVue projection HDTVs some time ago while several projector makers have released laser-based projectors in the past few years. The quality is there though there are some issues with high-resolution laser-displays but the physical size requirements for the technology (which are bulky projection TVs when you get right down to it) is the primary reason why you haven't seen them brought to market since they can't really compete with the smaller footprint of LED/LCD displays.

We are looking at units as thin as normal flat panels at least. People are too fanaticle about this thickness issue. The thickness of a laser vue is acceptable, unless you want to use it as a lay down touch surface, or handheld, or have some seroiuse space restrictions. Do you know the laservue is based on an Australuan design, that origionally supposed to release for $1700, and I still have not seen one here. For a leading edge upmarket set, I am surprised they have not tried to at least differentiate themselves in the past with shd resolution, may well have doubled their sales back then (read between the lines).

One of the real problems with laser is speckle, but there are ways around that.

[Wayne Morellini]

Problem with all projectors is you have to be in a blacked out room. Your screen has to be very bright which means it has to be almost black. This is fine for about 5% of home theaters I've seen.

Projection is a non-starter for the vast majority of the market. Rear-projection can get darker but still not as dark as an LCD or Plasma and you still have focus and geometry issues in rear-projection which destroys sharpness and usability as a UI display. Not to mention rear-projection normally has terrible viewing angles.

For my uses I don't want to sit in a black room while watching movies or TV during most of the day and I don't have the room for two viewing areas. And I'm what I would consider one of the more demanding customers when it comes to displays. So I'm not surprised that Lasers haven't caught on. Who wants milky washed out blacks or who wants to black out their living room? If a 4k Projector was under $2k I would consider getting one just for when I want to move my flatscreen out of the way and go wall sized cinema but otherwise I'm sticking with a flat-screen.

There are projection surfaces designed to give a strong contrasty image in light, and with better blacks. I have a few personal designs. They ussualy are were very (very) expensive, as the patents for them are not out of date. I imagine anything that is really good is still expensive. A couple of nights ago I was looking for large touch screens, and came accross a video of maybe the showxx 20 lum laser projector on a cheap advanced projection surface in 700 lum lit room. Not the best video, but might research to get some for examination (luv to find a site that lists and evaluates them all).

The purist might insist on a white mat projection surface, but in reality better and good enough is possible for home use.

Haven't read the patent, but good to see that there is talk about Apple releasing hdtv this year, something I have been pushing for over the years. Be great if they had 40 or 50+ inch 4k tvs.

[Nathan VanderByl]

Wouldn't the biggest hurdle to getting a RED-based projector in cinemas worldwide, formats aside, be servicing/replacement parts? I also don't see RED delivering a consumer product. I imagine they will fill the niche much like they did with the RED One - a product that competes with all the "big boys" in the 4K projection world in a much smaller package and at a much cheaper price.

[Nathan VanderByl]

Haven't read the patent, but good to see that there is talk about Apple releasing hdtv this year, something I have been pushing for over the years. Be great if they had 40 or 50+ inch 4k tvs.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that - Apple builds ecosystems around a limited set of products that work great within them. If sales of AppleTV were notable, I could see them getting behind one.

[Wayne Morellini]

The good thing about laser/led based projection systens are extra long lamp life, and probably reduced servicing and manufacturing costs.

For Red a upmarket consumer projector in the $3-5k range, helps subsidise the cost of the projector for production purposes, as it could increase sakes many times. As well, there are certain common design advantages with a cinema sized version that is bigger and requires the secured encryption channels. The only issue is ever changing consumer standards. I mean, hdmi 1.4 is not adequate for the sort of 50hz non interlaced dual feild stereo 3d we need to be looking at, display port is better and i suspect we will see this capability soon in another version, so display port/thunderbolt on the product is a must. At 8k the situation is even worse. So, until this is worked out a projector will need a replacable upgrade card for the ports.


Nathan


It is a longterm veiw, what do they do next to keep business up, as the current product lines are getting fully developed in meaningful market differentiation (feature list) as many competitors become just as refined and appealing. Apple has allready announced they are pkanning on moving to concentrating on software differentiation in sime of these product lines. So they eventusally need new product lines to grow and survive, 3d tv with mac/ios becomes an option. The challenge for apple is to figure out where to go next. They seem to be limited, vision is vision, it can be all encompassing, but many people have troible seeing the future. I used to do a lot of conceptual design work, that included many designs like apple has, ten or more years before they came out, as did a freind of mine that designs computers to a limited extent. I know where they can go, my present designs concepts look ten years ahead, plus they are missing a huge gap in mobile features/design that i am considering exploiting. Same with cameras, everything out there looks primitive to what is on the drawing board.

About the Apple Hdtv, they have been exploring lay down Ms surface like products, but I will be dissapionted though, if this is merely a mix up with the apple tv set top box again. Watch that one, as they are apparently evaluating/evaluated the use of theri Arm chip in the macbook air, and the apple tv product could become a cloud based home computer. Most all the range could be replaced with Arm computers eventually, the os on itouch etc moved to being based on the mac os years ago. The Arm cpu used to be the most powerfull cpu in the world when released and after, at times, as powerfull as a mini computer at 4mhz in the 80's. It suceeds in the mobile space because it is an ols very efficent design.