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Emmanuel Cambier
02-11-2007, 10:50 AM
Here are a few infos I stumbled on :

COPYRIGHT 2005 DMG World Media Ltd.

The companies I have in mind are Panther, Sachtler and Vinten. Since the beginnings of television, Vinten has provided excellent camera support for studio and OB applications. As the camera and lens weighed, at that time, some 80 kg the main issue in designing the pan and tilt heads for such cameras was 'counterbalance'. Stabilising the camera when tilted has since then been Vinten's domain, with smooth panning being achieved by a friction device combined with the mass of the camera equipment.

Another type of camera support is needed if a 16mm portable movie camera is to be operated. The cameraman Wendelin Sachtler looked for it and he found himself--with the help of friends--designing it. A 15 kg camera needs counterbalancing when tilted, but more important for smooth movement is perfect damping of vibrations caused by the operator, wind etc. And no jerks are acceptable when panning. Friction based systems need a certain input force to overcome the 'stiffness' at the beginning of movement and tend to 'swing back' at the end of any movement. Whilst a friction system combined with heavy mass can control the movement, with a lightweight camera in most cases the result is a jerk. Sachtler's design philosophy is therefore predominantly concentrating on friction free--so called 'fluid damping'. The word 'fluid' characterises more the fluent feel of the movement rather than fluid being involved with damping system, which is definitively not the case. All modern systems avoid liquids and use grease instead.

The Panther solution

Panther perfected dollies and cranes to support the moving camera, predominantly aiming to allow for smooth horizontal 'rides' and jerk free 'flights' of a camera. Now, in view of HD and HDCAM, DVCam and all the other compact and portable video cameras, it was a logical step forward for Panther to add pan and tilt heads with good tripods to their range of camera supports.

Besides a series of traditionally designed fluid heads for DV, ENG and EFP/Film cameras, with the friction free 'Sachtler style' damping and counterbalance, the first of a new design is the Fluid Head X15. In a new way it combines the advantages of continuously adjustable counterbalance and continuously adjustable friction-free fluid damping which can also be preset in defined, reproducible steps. Panther is calling this feature step & spin.

Let us look inside the damping system first. Imagine two cones fitting into each other, one is static and the other one rotates like the pan or tilting part of the head. In-between the cones you make sure there is a gap, small but ensuring that the cones do not touch each other. Now put viscous grease in-between the gap, vary the gap and make sure the gap is always filled with grease. As a matter of fact the gap varies from 1/10 to 6/10 of a millimetre which results in heavy to light fluid damping. In addition the selector--a ring around the horizontal and vertical part of the head--has defined click stops, numbered 1 to 12, which allow for precisely adjusting the horizontal and vertical drag to the same amount. This is an essential feature for diagonal camera movement. The system is based on a well established patent, but the way of using the idea is new and is protected itself under a new patent. The recipe for the grease was nearly forgotten, but now the formula is exclusively revitalised.

For the continuously adjustable counterbalance, a complete new technology is used. The goal was to allow--from minimum to maximum load--the full range of +/- 90[degrees] angle of tilt and offer identical performance in both forward and backward tilting. As with many effective solutions, the one used in the X 15 Fluid Head from Panther is simple but protected by a patent. Please imagine a bar shaped plate which is supported by two sets of springs. On top of the plate rotates the axle of the vertical part of the head. By tilting the camera forward or backward, the cam pushes on the plate and gets pushed back in the same way no matter what the direction is. To save space and weight, the assembly is somewhat more complex than the principle. The cam is not pushing, it is dragging on the plate and it is located between the springs. However it works the same as the principle--simple. To adjust the power of the springs, one has to know that the more one presses a spring the more the resulting force. As long as one makes sure that the spring does not become flat, the tension can be varied by the preset of the springs length. The shorter the spring the more power one gets out of it. By turning the knob for setting the balance at the X 15 Fluid Head one moves a ramp, which varies the initial length of the springs.

Within the main assembly, instead of spiral springs a disk type is used, because of its performance at the end of its maximum power. Spiral springs continuously increase their force whereas disk springs match better the required counterbalance in the range 80[degrees]-90[degrees] of tilt without additional correctives.

Bringing it all together, one concludes that a new standard has been set. The further features are a sliding balance plate with quick lock for the camera, illuminated bubble level, telescopic pan bar, prepared to accept two pan bars for EFP use, positive locks for pan and tilt, durable aluminium housing, black synthetic coating and standard 100mm bowl to fit any professional tripod of the customer's choice.

Needles to say, Panther is making suitable tripods of very high stability with new features for their entire range. The range starts with the Fluid Head T 4 and T 6 for compact DV cameras (74 mm bowl) up to the T 10 (100mm bowl) for general ENG recorders. The L 40 is a modular system which can also be used to add the 3rd (roll) axle to an existing head. Tripods are made from the combination of carbon fibre tubes and connectors out of aluminium with tight tolerances for high stability and anti-twist. All double extension tripods do feature double tube designs in both stages, another element for extra stability.

In summary, we have not invented the tripod but have put together an utmost appetising menu of most valuable ingredients.

COPYRIGHT 2005 DMG World Media Ltd.



If anybody could compare this head to some other RedOne compatible heads like :
- Sachtler Panorama plus (with Speed Lock CF HD tripod)
- O'connor 1030 HD (with adequate tripod)

The Panther System X15 SX1500 is listed here as well:
http://www.libraprobroadcast.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=panther%2Dsx1500&cat=14

Note that here it includes the C100/2 HD tripod which are different from the C75 tripod included here:
http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=10806&cat=0&page=1

this explain the price difference I think

I happen to live 800 klms from the nearest shop where I could check this myself, so anybody with better access is welcomed to comment. Especially Red Team drag shooters.:)
Yours Emmanuel

Stephen Williams
02-11-2007, 11:02 AM
http://www.libraprobroadcast.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=panther%2Dsx1500&cat=14[/url]

Note that here it includes the C100/2 HD tripod which are different from the C75 tripod included here:
http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=10806&cat=0&page=1

this explain the price difference I think

I happen to live 800 klms from the nearest shop where I could check this myself, so anybody with better access is welcomed to comment. Especially Red Team drag shooters.:)
Yours Emmanuel

Hi Emmanuel,

If you can afford an O'conner I would look no further. IMHO the very best.

Stephen

Emmanuel Cambier
02-11-2007, 11:18 AM
Thank you Stephen.
Did you have the chance to play with the panther?
I think the ability to use actual steps (12 of them) is of true interest since this is the best way to set the tilt and the pan to the exact same amount of drag, which will allow precise diagonal moves.

Stephen Williams
02-11-2007, 11:34 AM
Thank you Stephen.
Did you have the chance to play with the panther?
I think the ability to use actual steps (12 of them) is of true interest since this is the best way to set the tilt and the pan to the exact same amount of drag, which will allow precise diagonal moves.

Hi Emmanuel,

I have not, but it's a fairly new product relative to the O'conner and costs about the same. I will try to get a demo, I generally like Panther gear, but in the USA is not very popular, so on balance it's a greater risk.

Stephen

Adrian T.
02-11-2007, 12:47 PM
Here's the manual for the X15:
http://www.panther.tv/fileadmin/_pdf/_manuals/bcM_fluidhead_X15.pdf

And here's the brochure about all Panther tripods/heads:
http://www.panther.tv/fileadmin/_pdf/_brochures/bc_fluidheads_en.pdf

Steve Tammi
02-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Hi Emmanuel,

I have not, but it's a fairly new product relative to the O'Conner and costs about the same. I will try to get a demo, I generally like Panther gear, but in the USA is not very popular, so on balance it's a greater risk.

Stephen

I am thinking along the same lines... The Panther heads may indeed be a great piece of equipment but what about service & re-sale etc. Given that I have not found enough glowing user reviews about how awesome panther heads are compared to everything else the safe bet for the money seems to be O'Connor.

Paul Hazlett
02-11-2007, 03:55 PM
First we need to find out how much Red will weigh before you can pick out
a tripod.

If you are speaking about what brand and not which model. Look at Sachtler
for top shelf, and Cartoni for solid tripods at a good value.

While Panther is interesting it is still new and I think averaging the same prices as Scahtler.

Steve Tammi
02-11-2007, 04:06 PM
First we need to find out how much Red will weigh before you can pick out
a tripod.

If you are speaking about what brand and not which model. Look at Sachtler
for top shelf, and Cartoni for solid tripods at a good value.

While Panther is interesting it is still new and I think averaging the same prices as Scahtler.

Yes, good advice recommended by several people. I wouldn't consider buying a head/tripod until I have tested the camera on several setups. But I think it is prudent to do research before the camera arrives. O'Connor, Sachtler, Vinten, Cartoni and maybe Panther seem likely candidates.

Justin Anderson
02-11-2007, 07:26 PM
it'd be cool to get some feedback from the Red guys at the race to see how the Panther handled. And if they'd recommend it for future RED use.
Jarred? :)

Brook Willard
02-11-2007, 07:27 PM
I'm gonna bump this to OT... it's not specifically RED related.

Brian Ferguson
02-11-2007, 10:08 PM
Yes, good advice recommended by several people. I wouldn't consider buying a head/tripod until I have tested the camera on several setups. But I think it is prudent to do research before the camera arrives. O'Connor, Sachtler, Vinten, Cartoni and maybe Panther seem likely candidates.

We are talking to O'Connor about trying out some heads with the protos and Red Rail. O'Connor is a good fit because we are both in Orange County, CA. As we get more information about Red Rail and lenses and balance and "center of gravity" we can give you better information about what sized heads fit with different Red configurations. This is all part of our "road to NAB". We are going to give you info that would apply to whatever manufacturer that you prefer but O'Connor has been very helpful and they have a large presence in the rental houses - along with Sachtler, who are both owned by Vinten.

Oh yeah most of you saw the Frankie NHRA photos... yes that was a Panther X15 head. It is also a very nice product.

jeremie
02-12-2007, 04:13 AM
is old o'connor 1030s any good?

Jeff Kilgroe
02-12-2007, 09:25 AM
I'm gonna bump this to OT... it's not specifically RED related.

Hey Brook,

Since there's so many posts regarding tripods, matteboxes and other such things -- and more sure to followw... How about an an actual forum for companion hardware and accessories instead of just lumping them into the OT section. Or is this a request that should be forwarded to Jarred?

PaulClements
02-12-2007, 10:22 AM
I'm gonna bump this to OT... it's not specifically RED related.

Surely discussing how well things compliment and work (Or are expected to) with the RedOne camera couldn't be more specific?

If these questions are about other items in general then I'd agree, but they are more than often brought up here in context to the Red Camera.

I'm not just referring to this post, which I'd agree is more general than other ones that have been moved, but since AppliedVisual made the point about a seperate accessories forum it seemed more appropriate. We have one for lenses but that's only part of the equation for a suitable RedOne setup. Deeming all other accessories as Off topic will lead to a lack of discussion on them as people often just glance at the main news forum.

Emmanuel Cambier
02-12-2007, 10:51 AM
I'm not just referring to this post, which I'd agree is more general than other ones that have been moved

Well I'm not sure what you mean by "more general" since I'm only trying to determine what is the best head to put my Red camera on, and not a DVX or a sony…;)

But I sure wish I had a more apropriate section to post it in…
Brook… Jarred…

Emmanuel

PaulClements
02-12-2007, 12:47 PM
Hi Emmanuel, I guess what I meant was the thread doesn't exactly say "would this be a good head to use on a red one setup", it rather suggests "Is this a good head to buy". Whereas other ones such as the tripod thread was more "I'm looking at buying a new tripod and want to consider one for use with the Red when it arrives, does anyone have any suggestions". It's simply more specific and is directly linked to discussing the Red Camera in that instant. However I do point out that "more than often brought up here in context to the Red Camera" and I did mean this thread included! I simply put it in there in case someone responded with something like, where in this thread does it ask about using it with RedOne. Incidently if that had been the case I would've simply replied that by posting it here in the RedUser Forums it implies using it here!

And Breathe...

PaulClements
02-12-2007, 12:48 PM
Personally I think an accessories forum is essential. With individuals developing products such as Curts motor driven follow focus, and others discussing underwater housings in the RedUser User Groups sections, people asking about tripods, matte boxes, batteries etc AND with the release of the prices for accessories soon to be announced I think it'd be a great addition and focal point for more in depth discussion on issues that can be just as important to a great many people who are purchasing this camera and don't have the required knowledge (Myself included) to budget for the rest of the equipment they are going to need or want.

And Breathe... :)

Emmanuel Cambier
02-12-2007, 01:50 PM
Hi Emmanuel, I guess what I meant was the thread doesn't exactly say "would this be a good head to use on a red one setup", it rather suggests "Is this a good head to buy". Whereas other ones such as the tripod thread was more "I'm looking at buying a new tripod and want to consider one for use with the Red when it arrives, does anyone have any suggestions". It's simply more specific and is directly linked to discussing the Red Camera in that instant. However I do point out that "more than often brought up here in context to the Red Camera" and I did mean this thread included! I simply put it in there in case someone responded with something like, where in this thread does it ask about using it with RedOne. Incidently if that had been the case I would've simply replied that by posting it here in the RedUser Forums it implies using it here!

And Breathe...

hey… I love you man:o
Please do breath.

Now back to serious (off topic) stuff.

How important you guys think it is for a fluid head, to have defined steps of drag as opposed to continuous setting?

Emmanuel

Finner
02-12-2007, 01:57 PM
hey… I love you man:o
Please do breath.

Now back to serious (off topic) stuff.

How important you guys think it is for a fluid head, to have defined steps of drag as opposed to continuous setting?

Emmanuel

Also no idea here why this is considered off topic????

Drag is very important, especially when you get in to heavier weighing cameras. Oconnor is great because it does not have set 1-9 or 1-12 click settings but control over the whole scale of dampening in very small non-click dial amounts.

Emmanuel Cambier
02-12-2007, 03:40 PM
Drag is very important, especially when you get in to heavier weighing cameras. Oconnor is great because it does not have set 1-9 or 1-12 click settings but control over the whole scale of dampening in very small non-click dial amounts.

Hey Finner

Could you elaborate a little more why you dislike click settings ? Or rather why you like continuous settings ?
As a reminder click settings "syndicate" say they are the best way to set your tilt and your pan drag settings, to the exact same amount of drag, allowing most precise diagonal mouvments.

O'connnor = continuous
Sachtler = clicks
Panther = continuous + clicks

Yours "continuously clicking" emmanuel:)

Finner
02-12-2007, 08:29 PM
The click settings are fine but what if for a shot you are trying to get 7 feels to loose and 8 feels to much. I have rarely had this happen before but sometimes it does. Oconnor heads just give you the chance to control the tilt and pan in much smaller steps.

Steve Gibby
02-12-2007, 10:15 PM
As Briferg mentioned, RED will have some recommendations by NAB for potential tripod/rig configurations. Since RED One will be flexible, modular and scalable for use in multiple genres of production, if you do a lot of those different genres on a regular basis, then one single tripod will probably not do the trick for all those types of projects. My suggestion then would be to buy the best tripod you can, with a wide range of adjustments, and rated for the weight ranges that you do most of your shooting in. For the infrequent gigs with needs outside that range, simply rent a specialty tripod on a per-project basis. A RED One system will see weight ranges fully loaded from as low as 12 pounds to as high as 50 pounds (or higher). That means if you mostly do hike-in nature and travel shooting, with a total camera system weight of maybe around 15 pounds, you can get away with fairly lightweight carbon fiber sticks/decent fluid head combo like a Miller Solo. It goes upward from there, depending on your usual camera weight, and what you can afford.

For mobile non-hardlined EFP production of sports, travel, nature, etc., I've had great use over the years from Vinten tripods - as have a lot of my associates who shoot in those genres. I've also used a lot of Sachtler and OConnor heads for heavier loads and more stationary productions, with excellent results.

I'm a big fan of not taking the new price hit on tripods. I like finding well cared for used heads, having them checked out closely, then mating them up with a pair (or a few pairs) of used sticks, again in good condition.

Emmanuel Cambier
02-13-2007, 04:23 PM
The click settings are fine but what if for a shot you are trying to get 7 feels to loose and 8 feels to much. I have rarely had this happen before but sometimes it does. Oconnor heads just give you the chance to control the tilt and pan in much smaller steps.

So does the Panther X15 which has 12 clicks + continuous settings.

How about diagonal moves with the O'Connor 1030 ?
Did you ever had any problems ?

Does all this leaves the Sachtler Pannorama Plus out in the cold as a "no good" ?

I'm just trying to figure things out really, I could go with any brand, it's just that for europeans to go with O'connor is as "risky" as it is for americans to go with Sachtler or Panther.
Which brings one big question that originated this whole thread:
Why on earth did RedTeam choosed to shoot the dragsters on a Panther x15 ?
Since I presume those guys have access to all kinds and brands, why pick up this one?
If there is a good reason to do so, I'd like to hear about it.
I hope I've made it clear that I am in no way biased against O'Connor or Sachtler, as a mater of fact I may pick up one of those in the end.

As Gibby put it ever so nicely, it all depends on what you're planning to shoot, but it is also true that if you are planning as I do to shoot with around 20-25lbs on the head, then the 3 affor mentionned heads are great picks, and it gets really hard to choose.
That's why I'm trying so hard to gather informations well in advance.
Hoping this can be of any help to others as well.:)

Yours Emmanuel

Finner
02-14-2007, 07:39 AM
I am waiting for NAB to check out a bunch.

There are many good heads, The thing is you will rarel hear complaints about oconnor heads.

PaulClements
02-14-2007, 01:42 PM
The thing is you will rarel hear complaints about oconnor heads.

Apart from those on a tight budget that would love one! :)

Emmanuel Cambier
02-14-2007, 05:15 PM
Hey guys…
I was just wondering, since many of us will use the Red EVF while shooting, it would be handy to know which heads support eyepiece extensions options.
I know the Sachtler Panorama plus has "a viewfinder extension bracket".
The Panther X15 has "a flange for eyepiece extension".
As for the O'Connor heads I can't find any information in this regard. Is anyone in the know?

Maybe we could regard this thread as a base for NAB checking for the lucky ones like Finner who are gonna be there?

Emmanuel

Emmanuel Cambier
02-14-2007, 05:39 PM
I found some info on the 2060HD and it does have eypiece leveller options.