CineForm NEO 4K Beta, RedCine compatible, and available for trial.

[David Newman]

Since RedCine became available (48 hours ago) we have been tweaking the CineForm QuickTime engine so that we can offer CineForm NEO 4K. Fortunately Red's timing was good as we were about to release a new version of all our Products, and we had NEO 4K beta ready, just in case.

If you are new to CineForm (where have you been?) here what you need to know : CineForm offers a 4:2:2 and 4:4:4+ wavelet compressed digital intermediate format, that gives the visual quality of DPX files without the huge file sizes, and is pretty fast. We support either AVI and MOV wrapped media, on PCs and Intel Macs. Blah blah blah.

How does this impact RedCine? Almost all codecs offered by QuickTime panel in RedCine are 8-bit only, many are also chroma sub-sampled, so you are likely plannig to use QuickTime or generating proxies then switch to DPX down the road. Using the CineForm you can directly output high precision masters, in a lightly compressed format (between 5:1 to 10:1), at resolutions up to 4K (and beyond.) Very handy for effects work where proxies will not do, and too many 4K DPX files on disks are painful.

Now both NEO 4K and RedCine are in beta, so there be things that will come up. I have found one RedCine bug that prevents deep pixel codec like CineForm (and others) from producing a 4096 wide export, yet 4104 and 4088 works fine (CineForm codec wants width to be divisable by 8, that is why +/- 8 was used.) I have reported this to the Red team. If you export a 4096 project as 4088, it will scale, so create a project that is 4088x2048 to match you export (no scaling is good.) That is only .2% of frame smaller. :) I'm sure this will be fixed.

We have only tested with the two clips upload, as we sadly don't have a access to Red cameras. So I look forward to others with footage to help us refine our products.

On the we have the NEO 4K for PC, but not yet on the Mac. The Mac codec is licensed up to 2K 4:4:4 at the moment. Prospect 4K is also coming, but NEO is all you need to get started on some compressed 4K composites. Note: the CineForm 4K files will work in Prospect 2K under Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0/CS3.

Here are the betas for :
NEO 4K -- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/NEO4Kv320b142a-071116.zip
Prospect 2K -- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/Prospect2Kv320b142a-071116.zip
CienForm Mac Codec (2K)-- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/CFHDCodec-MacOSv1.4.0.43-071116.zip

If you new to any of these products, they work as a 15-day trial.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

you are really fast...pretty cool...

how will the workflow be

redcine----direct to cineform, or do you need an intermediate codec?

i mean will redcine output cineform directly or which formats are the best to export
from redcine and then transcode to cineform?

[David Newman]

We are the intermediate. Well it is a confusing word now, as sometimes we are the acquisition format, or master format, but we are most commonly an online post production format. We are the intermediate between your source Redcode/RedCine and your output: film, HDDVD, etc.

[SalaTar]

Touché'

And thank you for a real real-time

[SalaTar]

"You just got youre ass handend to you on a platter, what do you do?"
"I am going to Redland"

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Which one is right?
1.neo 4k will do the file conversion of redcode.
2. redcine will render out cineform.
3. redcine exports xxx----neo4k uses xxx as source--- convert to cineform.

[David Taylor]

When Neo 4K is installed you can export directly out of RedCine to CineForm MOV files at up to 4K spatial resolution. If you select a spatial resolution of 2K or greater the resulting CineForm files are 12-bit CineForm 444 (RGB). These files become your new master. Neo also includes importers/exporters for AE.

If you have Prospect 2K installed (with Premiere Pro), you can render out of RedCine into 12-bit CineForm 444 files at up to 2K spatial resolution. Prospect 2K also (beyond Neo) has CineForm's real-time processing engine for for an online workflow using Premiere Pro. When we release Prospect 4K you'll have an online 4K solution using Adobe tools.

These tools represent an alternative to exporting uncompressed DPX files from RedCine as David Newman mentioned above.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

thanks now, everything is clear, i am very excited...great job.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Tried NEO on my PC with a 2K & 4K conversion - it fails to write frame 0 and then quits?
Scaled the 4K to 4088 as suggested.
???

[David Newman]

Try 2048x1024 or 1920x1080 first to see whether there are issues with export in general. Help us narrow it down. I was doing 4Kx2k exports on a 2GB core 2 duo laptop (Dell M90.)

Idea! Make sure the keyframes is set to 1. My system first defaulted to 7, and that didn't work.

[Vladimir Eugene]

I'm a PC man and believe your work will help many others. What can I do to help. I do have a RED cam with me and was planning on being in San Diego sometime this weekend

[David Newman]

Thank you, at moment I'm looking for additional 4K and 2K footage, and as many users to help Red and CineForm work out the kinks in the QuickTime export from RedCine. Are you shooting this weekend in SD?

[Michael Schrengohst]

Try 2048x1024 or 1920x1080 first to see whether there are issues with export in general. Help us narrow it down. I was doing 4Kx2k exports on a 2GB core 2 duo laptop (Dell M90.)

Idea! Make sure the keyframes is set to 1. My system first defaulted to 7, and that didn't work.

Hello,

Yes, that worked - did a 1920x1080 export - Keyframe set to 1.
Looks good. Will play some more later.
Thanks

[David Newman]

Thanks for trying again, I look forward to yours and other feedback.

[Mike McCarthy]

It seems to be working for me, but I am curious to see file size and playback performance once it finishes converting at 4088x2048. Is the RedCine to Cineform process multithreaded? I am only getting 50% CPU usage on my dual socket workstation, but Hyperthreading might be skewing that. (Time for an 8 core system)

[Mike McCarthy]

Also, does the lack of a 4K varient of Prospect mean that the 4K resolution is not supported by the CineformRT engine in Premiere. If so, are we supposed to use desktop mode with Cineform as the render codec?

EDITED: It displays the 4K clip in my Prospect2K project, and the image appears, but playback leaves much to be desired.

I tried using AE, but the 4K (4088) file did not work. It only displayed as a white screen. The 2K version worked fine. The 4K fine plays in Qucktime, and by "plays" I mean there is image data. What machine specs will we need to get realtime playback of Cineform4K files? (Presumably at 2K display)

[reality]

Im very excited for this. I assume Neo 4k will be free since its made for Redcine?

[Mike McCarthy]

Don't hold your breath, this is a 15 day trial. RedCine support is one of MANY capabilities in Neo4K.

[Lauri Kettunen]

David N. & David T.,

I'm taking my hat off as a sign of admiration.

You guys enable something which only some time ago would have sounded like highly optimistic wishful thinking. You make it even better; instead of rushing to the markets including customers with lot of capital resources, you make these things possible for indies taking into account most indies are, in fact, out of money.

It's great that Cineform is not run by economists focusing fully on the next quarter of year but instead of engineer oriented people thinking of what happens in the long run!

[MikeHedge]

yay!!! David Taylor and David Newman posting wow...

so exciting....

Mike McCarty very interested in your plans for your new system.

David Newman, contact me. I have a lot of RED footage from the Utah shoot, some of which I can use for testing. If I can throw all the R3d clips in a timeline using Cineform 2k, sync sound somehow, do some editing, and do a EDL/XML to a Neo 4k that would be awesome. I have access to a Sony 4K SXRD.... so It would be awesome to be able to show some Macgregor footage at 4K. As far as I know, Zach and Mac have started the edit.

anyone know a magical way to play back 4k via the Sony 4k projector that doesn't involve a QuVis?

mike
behedge@yahoo.com

[Sanjin Jukic]

David very good what CineForm is doing for Mac.

Playback of QT 2K file output from REDCINE in CineForm HD/2K codec
for Mac is a bit slower than output from REDCINE in 2K Apple ProRes HQ 422.
But I'm sure the thing could change soon.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/redmag_cf2K422.jpg
Info from QT Inspector for Cineform 2K 422 QT output

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/redmag_2Kproreshq422.jpg
Info from QT Inspector for Apple ProRes 2K HQ 422 QT output

Mac Pro test computer hardware specification >>> (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=108792&postcount=22)

[Simon Blackledge]

ok as usual I'm lost with all these cine neo options etc..

For mac.. what exactly do we need to DL install ?

Also is it available now? just the codec to purchase for OSX pipelines?

Cheers

Si

[donatello b]

"I assume Neo 4k will be free since its made for Redcine"

no, not free .... only free to try out for X amount of time ...
cineform reader is free - reads cineform files on your computer ... but if you want to encode ( render out) then you will need to buy ...

[Vladimir Eugene]

Thank you, at moment I'm looking for additional 4K and 2K footage, and as many users to help Red and CineForm work out the kinks in the QuickTime export from RedCine. Are you shooting this weekend in SD?

I'm shooting this weekend. Currently in LA, but can head down there. Give me a call

Vladimir
213/804-6184

[Fredrik Harreschou]

If I can throw all the R3d clips in a timeline using Cineform 2k, sync sound somehow, do some editing, and do a EDL/XML to a Neo 4k that would be awesome.

I guess it depends on your project but I would say this is even better:
Upgrade your Prospect 2K to Prospect 4K (TBA) and work in 4K throughout and output to all "lesser" formats from that master. Then you only transcode once. I'm pretty sure the reason for using NEO now is just a "beta solution".

Your statement of throwing R3D-clips in the timeline isn't quite right either. You have to transcode to Cineform 12-bit RGB 4:4:4 before editing.

Please correct me if I'm wrong! :)

[David Newman]

Also, does the lack of a 4K varient of Prospect mean that the 4K resolution is not supported by the CineformRT engine in Premiere. If so, are we supposed to use desktop mode with Cineform as the render codec?

EDITED: It displays the 4K clip in my Prospect2K project, and the image appears, but playback leaves much to be desired.

I tried using AE, but the 4K (4088) file did not work. It only displayed as a white screen. The 2K version worked fine. The 4K fine plays in Qucktime, and by "plays" I mean there is image data. What machine specs will we need to get realtime playback of Cineform4K files? (Presumably at 2K display)

We haven't completed 4K support in Premiere yet, so there will be issue for a few more weeks. Things will work better in Premiere today if you turn off the 32-bit float mode. Also re-wrapping MOV to AVI will work better in Premiere today. We need to get the 4096 fixed as your timeline is likely to be 2048, which as nicely accelerated, whereas 4088 decoded as 2044, will then need to be scaled to 2048 for playback (not efficient.) 4096 expoorts will solve this.

White screen in AE, sounds like your need a Quicktime upgrade. AE works fine with the 4K images, this what we did all our testing with. Unfortunately the Quicktime player will not do wavelet sub-res decode requests, so 4K playback will be slow. AE does handle sub-res decodes.

[David Newman]

It seems to be working for me, but I am curious to see file size and playback performance once it finishes converting at 4088x2048. Is the RedCine to Cineform process multithreaded? I am only getting 50% CPU usage on my dual socket workstation, but Hyperthreading might be skewing that. (Time for an 8 core system)

RedCine is threading well on dual cores. The Quicktime components are not yet are thoroughly threaded as our DShow components, yet the encode time is still a faction of the RedCine development time. New Quicktime threading is coming to both platforms.

[David Newman]

David very good what CineForm is doing for Mac.

Playback of QT 2K file output from REDCINE in CineForm HD/2K codec
for Mac is a bit slower than output from REDCINE in 2K Apple ProRes HQ 422.
But I'm sure the thing could change soon.

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/redmag_cf2K422.jpg
Info from QT Inspector for Cineform 2K 422 QT output

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/extras/redmag_2Kproreshq422.jpg
Info from QT Inspector for Apple ProRes 2K HQ 422 QT output

Mac Pro test computer hardware specification >>> (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=108792&postcount=22)

The CineForm 2048 output now defaults to 4:4:4. So CineForm 444 2K is lower bit-rate than ProRes 422. Not bad.

[David Newman]

ok as usual I'm lost with all these cine neo options etc..

For mac.. what exactly do we need to DL install ?

Also is it available now? just the codec to purchase for OSX pipelines?

Cheers

Si

Sorry it is a liitle confusing, we don't sell a Mac only solution. The Mac license comes with NEO HD/2K or soon with NEO 4K. You get both PC and Mac licenses as we are promoting a cross platform solution. The PC part of NEO includes a lot of conversion utilities that Mac user can run under Parallels.

Available now:
NEO HD (PC up to 1920x1080 4:2:2) + which includes a 2K Mac license is $599.
NEO 2K is 2048x2048 4:4:4 Mac and PC is $799.

our plan is for NEO 4K to be $999 for the two plaform license, supporting unrestricted resolution. Do 8K encodes if you wish.

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Sorry it is a liitle confusing, we don't sell a Mac only solution. The Mac license comes with NEO HD/2K or soon with NEO 4K. You get both PC and Mac licenses as we are promoting a cross platform solution. The PC part of NEO includes a lot of conversion utilities that Mac user can run under Parallels.

Available now:
NEO HD (PC up to 1920x1080 4:2:2) + which includes a 2K Mac license is $599.
NEO 2K is 2048x2048 4:4:4 Mac and PC is $799.

our plan is for NEO 4K to be $999 for the two plaform license, supporting unrestricted resolution. Do 8K encodes if you wish.

Since you brought it up: Any idea on pricing for Prospect 4K?

[David Newman]

Since you brought it up: Any idea on pricing for Prospect 4K?

We are thinking $1999 for Prospect 4K, the old Prospect 2K price which just dropped to $1499. Subject to more thinking of course.

[Noah Kadner]

I get one error during install that installing this software will replace a newer version with an older version. Then I try to render out to CF in the QT player and get a kernal panic crash. What did I do wrong?

-Noah

[David Newman]

Interesting. You are using a Mac I'm guessing. That versioning error is not likely to be the CineForm codec but the Pace protection software (which we really don't like -- any non-dongle alternatives on the Intel Mac?) So the crash (which I've never seen) may be related to Pace if there versioning issue. Do you have the same issue exporting out of RedCine?

[Rune Hansen]

Interesting. You are using a Mac I'm guessing. That versioning error is not likely to be the CineForm codec but the Pace protection software (which we really don't like -- any non-dongle alternatives on the Intel Mac?)

There's also the HASP dongle by Aladdin on the Mac.

Cheers,

-rune

[David Newman]

Users, generally don't like dongles.

[Jay A. Kelley]

David,

I am very interested in this codec. Here is what I need.. Hopefully you can point me to the right place:

My interest at this time is more the 2k 1080p/i 720 and even 480i formats. I have no problem using premiere pro so that's fine.

My main concern is render speed from RedCine, and the ability to export to other formats from premiere.

I had HOPED to have a lot more choices in output formats in REDCine (like AVI, WMV ect.) this would have been great for shooting for clients, then going to REDCine and outputting their requested codec off to their hard drive. It's kind of what I thought REDCine was going to do.

However, if Avid, Premiere, and all the other editing systems support quicktime, then I guess that will work alright

[Mike McCarthy]

We haven't completed 4K support in Premiere yet, so there will be issue for a few more weeks. Things will work better in Premiere today if you turn off the 32-bit float mode. Also re-wrapping MOV to AVI will work better in Premiere today. We need to get the 4096 fixed as your timeline is likely to be 2048, which as nicely accelerated, whereas 4088 decoded as 2044, will then need to be scaled to 2048 for playback (not efficient.) 4096 expoorts will solve this.

White screen in AE, sounds like your need a Quicktime upgrade. AE works fine with the 4K images, this what we did all our testing with. Unfortunately the Quicktime player will not do wavelet sub-res decode requests, so 4K playback will be slow. AE does handle sub-res decodes.

Updating Quicktime fixed the AE issue, but I converted to AVI regardless. I am getting 6fps in AE when decoding 4K at 2K, which is about the same as I get reading 2K at 2K, so that is great. Now I just need a faster system to increase all of those numbers. I didn't see much difference between AVI and MOV besides that Premiere put render bars over my 4K AVI. Looking forward to 4096 wide files for less scaling issues, so hopefully it won't take them too long to fix that in RedCine. Does RedAlert create Cineform4K files at full res? (If I use a Mac)

[Mike Zinner]

Great, now we are getting somewhere and to have the Cineform Intermediate as an output codec for RedCine is great.

But my "real" optimal workflow would be - instead of using RedCine - to directly stream RedCode RAW to CineForm RAW and then work with those files directly on the PP timeline / in AE.

1) No de-bayer + encoding times
2) Retain the flexibility of RAW directly on the PP timeline and not being locked down to the color settings you set in RedCine before rendering out
3) Maybe speed improvements during playback

David, could you comment on the 2K / 1K playback speed of 4K Cineform Intermediate vs. 4K Cineform RAW files? And could the Cineform RAW be extended to store the additional metainfo found in RedCode Raw (once the conversion is figured out :) )?

[Troy Smith]

I have a question for david, or anyone that knows,
I'm wondering if I render out from redcine 1080 cineform,
and take those to a 1080 cineform project in cs3, is there a recommended I/O card that works with cineform to get 1080 out to a HDTV, without having to render to the I/o cards codec.

Appreciate any ideas on this.

Stricko

[Fredrik Harreschou]

I have a question for david, or anyone that knows,
I'm wondering if I render out from redcine 1080 cineform,
and take those to a 1080 cineform project in cs3, is there a recommended I/O card that works with cineform to get 1080 out to a HDTV, without having to render to the I/o cards codec.

Appreciate any ideas on this.

Stricko

Prospect HD v3 supports both the Xena-HS and Xena-LH(e) HD-SDI card in Premiere. (BMD Decklink/Multibridge is almost there, according to Cineform.)
In Premiere, you can even use the second monitor function of your graphics card, if it supports that. AE needs AJA/Blackmagic etc.

[Troy Smith]

thanks for that fred,
I appreciate the answers.

Stricko

[Sanjin Jukic]

The CineForm 2048 output now defaults to 4:4:4. So CineForm 444 2K is lower bit-rate than ProRes 422. Not bad.

Amazing David!

[Mike McCarthy]

Great, now we are getting somewhere and to have the Cineform Intermediate as an output codec for RedCine is great.

But my "real" optimal workflow would be - instead of using RedCine - to directly stream RedCode RAW to CineForm RAW and then work with those files directly on the PP timeline / in AE.

1) No de-bayer + encoding times
2) Retain the flexibility of RAW directly on the PP timeline and not being locked down to the color settings you set in RedCine before rendering out
3) Maybe speed improvements during playback

David, could you comment on the 2K / 1K playback speed of 4K Cineform Intermediate vs. 4K Cineform RAW files? And could the Cineform RAW be extended to store the additional metainfo found in RedCode Raw (once the conversion is figured out :) )?

In 2K, Cineform RAW usually is harder on the system than Cineform444. I believe this is because the debayer has to be done live with RAW files. I assume 4K would be the same way.

[David Newman]

In 2K, Cineform RAW usually is harder on the system than Cineform444. I believe this is because the debayer has to be done live with RAW files. I assume 4K would be the same way.

Once you develop RAW to 444 no more demosaic is required, that is why 444 can be faster. However much of the RAW speed was impacted by 3D LUT processing, which also gets cooked in once you develop to 444.

[Troy Smith]

David I'm wondering since you mentioned that cineform in pp is best in a avi wrapper, is there any advantage to render from redcine in a uncompressed qt format, then take those to ae and render out the cineform avi wrapped files from there? Or is it fine quality wise to do two passes with the cineform codec, being redcine to cineform qt, then cineform qt to cineform avi within ae.

Thanks
stricko

[David Taylor]

Stricko, Redcine renders into CineForm MOVs (as I suspect you know). As part of the Neo 4K install there is an installed utility called HD Link (I know, but we had the name first....) that will literally re-wrap MOV to AVI (and vice versa) without touching the underlying compression. Although it requires an extra step, it is NOT a generation hit, and because it's a re-wrap it's about as fast as a file copy.

[Troy Smith]

sweet, I get it now,
one more question if u don't mind,
cineform raw vs 444
Ive read the write up on your site about the raw,
I guess I'm wondering is it advised to go from redcine to
cineform raw and edit with those, or go straight to 444,
sorry for this newb question, just trying to understand
for what type of situations one would chose raw or 444
and if chosing raw, at what point does one render to 444 etc.

Just trying to understand the offerings cineform has in a practical sense.

Thanks for your patience with these questions.

Stricko

[David Newman]

CineForm RAW like REDCODE RAW is an aquisition format, it contains the potential to be "developed" to full 4:4:4, but is stored using the very efficient bayer structure. CineForm RAW was the first of it kind, Redcode the second, currently they are all only two (and let's kept it that way :) .) Out of RedCine you render to CineForm 444.

Interesting facts:

CineForm RAW -- one value per pixel (bayer format.)
CineForm Intermediate 422 -- averages two values per pixel.
CineForm 444 -- three values per pixel.
CineForm 4444 (+alpha channel) -- four values per pixel.

All are based on the same wavelet engine.

[Troy Smith]

thanks,
so at what point in a workflow
would someone render to cineform raw?

Or do I not need to worry about it, just shoot red, render out to cineform 444
and edit and color grade away, then output to whatever medium I want.

stricko

[David Taylor]

Stricko, the CineForm workflow to support Red is to shoot RedCode, then render from RedCine into CineForm 444 as your new online master. We will be offering *additional* workflow elements in the not-too-distant future to further improve efficiency, but we're not yet ready to announce details. Existing customers of CineForm are accustomed to our regular feature improvements, and we intend the same in our support for Red. Our final forward-looking comment is that we think you'll like the features we have planned....

[Mike McCarthy]

Just to clarify for myself and everyone else, there is no way to render any file to CineformRAW, correct. Currently, the only way to generate a Cineform RAW file is through the SI-2K or other Raw Digital Cinema Camera, correct?

And on a related note, there is no way to trim a Cineform RAW file without "developing" it to Cinefrom444 or 422, right? If there is, how do you do it?

[Mike Zinner]

On a side note, Cineform RAW files can be used directly on the Premiere Pro timeline and you have the ability to modify the (almost) same color settings as you do in RedCine - with the big advantage of being able to do this right in the editing application and not having to render any intermediate file in a separate application first. Only if you do secondary color correction in e.g. Color Finesse you would render out to Cinefrom444(4) for the clips you need it and bring them back to the timeline. The rest would go from RAW directly to the final output render.

This doesn't suite everybody of course, but for me it would simplify things a lot if I could keep using the RAW files as long as possible in my workflow to tweak the settings at any time and not be locked in to the settings I made prior editing - and only "develop" the files for the final output rendering.

Their is more information about the Cineform RAW workflow on their site.

[Troy Smith]

Ok thanks cineform daves for your explanations, I look forward to
prospect4k, I luv premiere and its going to be great doing 4k right in the
app I know and luv.

Stricko

[David Taylor]

Just to clarify for myself and everyone else, there is no way to render any file to CineformRAW, correct. Currently, the only way to generate a Cineform RAW file is through the SI-2K or other Raw Digital Cinema Camera, correct?
Correct. CineForm RAW (and REDCODE for that matter) are acquisition formats, they are not render-to formats. You can theoretically convert from one RAW format to another without developing, but once "developed" the image becomes a traditional YUV or RGB image


And on a related note, there is no way to trim a Cineform RAW file without "developing" it to Cinefrom444 or 422, right? If there is, how do you do it?
On an NLE timeline you can manipulate a CineForm RAW clip like any other, so it can be "trimmed" without rendering. Other tools that can trim external to an NLE can theoretically trim CineForm RAW clips too. But...we haven't announced CineForm RAW support for the Red camera, so this discussion is somewhat theoretical. :)

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Correct. CineForm RAW (and REDCODE for that matter) are acquisition formats, they are not render-to formats. You can theoretically convert from one RAW format to another without developing, but once "developed" the image becomes a traditional YUV or RGB image


On an NLE timeline you can manipulate a CineForm RAW clip like any other, so it can be "trimmed" without rendering. Other tools that can trim external to an NLE can theoretically trim CineForm RAW clips too. But...we haven't announced CineForm RAW support for the Red camera, so this discussion is somewhat theoretical. :)

I notice that you say announced, and not "planned" or "started development for"...:sarcasm:

[David Taylor]

I try to be somewhat precise with words, but to keep you on your toes the word "announce" could encompass "planned" or "started development for".... :greedy:

[SalaTar]

Davids just teted latest beta of 2KDL on beta box (dell M65).
RedCine 2k to CF 2k seems fine with latest Qtime on it.(dont use 7.2)
PPRO2 worked Great as well as RGB play back (its seems faster now on the NV cards) with mov file.

Great job
:weight_lift:

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Exactly what I was thinking...:biggrin:

[Jannard]

It would be a bit misleading to imply that Cineform will be able to open REDCODE RAW without a transcode. RED has agreements in place, at least for a certain time period, that would prohibit this type of native support.

The long term plan is to have REDCODE support, and be supported by, as many companies as possible. But I would be careful about making a purchase based on a loose inference of full support with no time period stated.

Jim

[David Newman]

No worries there Jim, we're only interested in transcoding, nothing else was being implied. Transcoding everyone's camera format to CineForm is what we do well, native support is a thing for the big NLE vendors. We are quite happy that RedCine works as well as it does for rendering out to CineForm. Once the 4096 wide bug in fixed RedCine we are all set. Thanks for following the thread.

[SalaTar]

CineForm ConForm...thats what you need to call it

[Michael Lindsay]

....RED has agreements in place, at least for a certain time period, that would prohibit this type of native support.....
Jim

Hi Jim (or anyone else willing to answer)

I heard about this from a high end software/hardware manufacturer. They mentioned/mumbled 2years? Is this correct/way off? I realise that agreements get made to aid development so I'm not complaining at all. Just trying to get as much info as possible to support any post purchasing decisions I make to work with our 2 red cameras.

thanks for any more info (if possible)..

Michael Lindsay

[David Newman]

More mundane, use 4080 wide not 4088, as I goofed, divisible by 16 works better for real-time playback in Premiere Pro.

[SalaTar]

Adobe can say no, but do they (red) control all 3rd parties?

[SalaTar]

Thanks David will re-encode

[Jason Rodriguez]

And on a related note, there is no way to trim a Cineform RAW file without "developing" it to Cinefrom444 or 422, right? If there is, how do you do it?

They can be trimmed . . . I typically use the free Virtual Dub (http://www.virtualdub.org) utility in it's "Stream Copy" mode.

[David Newman]

A new build of NEO 4K has been created to work around the RedCine 4096 export issue. With this new build you can set your project and export resolution 4095, and internally the codec will treat the image as 4096. This way you get your full image out of RedCine (minus 1 pixel on the edge) to a 12-bit CineForm 444 MOV master. When RedCine is fixed for 4096 16-bit QT exports, the projects can be set back to the default resolution.

Improvements have also been made to the AVI 4K importer for After Effects and Premiere Pro, plus there will be a new version of Prospect 2K tomorrow that supports 4K RT playback on a 2K project timeline. We would till recommend re-wrapping the MOVs as AVIs (very fast and lossless) for Premiere Pro work, but the AE will work fines in 16-bit per channel RGBA from MOV files.

New NEO 4K 3.2.0.143 : http://www.cineform.com/downloads/NEO4Kv320b143-071119.zip

Please offer any feedback from your testing.

Thanks.

[Obin Olson]

If only I had my RED camera to test with!
I guess framerates are a non issue as Redcine just exports "frames" and you guys transcode to "video" files right? your not looking at extra frames etc like dvcproHD right?

Hey David! nice to see you 'round here! I am sure you can't say they same for me hehehhe :) I will FIND your weirdest bugs while you sleep!!! LOL

Really though your latest builds are getting better and better. thanks for that you know I am the biggest fan of your workflow :)

[Mike McCarthy]

A new build of NEO 4K has been created to work around the RedCine 4096 export issue. With this new build you can set your project and export resolution 4095, and internally the codec will treat the image as 4096. This way you get your full image out of RedCine (minus 1 pixel on the edge) to a 12-bit CineForm 444 MOV master. When RedCine is fixed for 4096 16-bit QT exports, the projects can be set back to the default resolution.

Improvements have also been made to the AVI 4K importer for After Effects and Premiere Pro, plus there will be a new version of Prospect 2K tomorrow that supports 4K RT playback on a 2K project timeline. We would till recommend re-wrapping the MOVs as AVIs (very fast and lossless) for Premiere Pro work, but the AE will work fines in 16-bit per channel RGBA from MOV files.

New NEO 4K 3.2.0.143 : http://www.cineform.com/downloads/NEO4Kv320b143-071119.zip

Please offer any feedback from your testing.

Thanks.

Let me make sure I have this straight: I set my REDCINE project to 4095 and export at 4095, and Neo4K will automatically add an extra line to the edge, and then I setup a PREMIERE project at full 4096, for my "4095" wide file? (Or more likely a 2K project)

[Joel Kaye]

No worries there Jim, we're only interested in transcoding, nothing else was being implied. Transcoding everyone's camera format to CineForm

Well David - if Apple doesn't step up I think you're going to make some sales. Sure looks like you may be the conduit to the best post solution for a lot of us.

Does your codec work in FCP and Color well? Or are you really optimized more for Premiere? And what about Premiere on the Mac?

I'm getting a brain cramp...

[Mike McCarthy]

The Cineform codec works in Premiere on a Mac, and should work in FCP as well, but there are major advantages to using Cineform with Premiere on a PC. Prospect's Cineform RT engine allows realtime effects and editing in Premiere, with realtime SDI Monitoring if desired, from the XenaLHe.

[jeremie]

stupid question but is the codec working in compositing/vfx software like Nuke ?

[Obin Olson]

i'ts just an AVI codec like the rest. can you open others in Nuke? it works in Fusion...

[Irri]

It opened in FCP for me, but not in Color or Nuke. I may have done something wrong though.

[David Newman]

Let me make sure I have this straight: I set my REDCINE project to 4095 and export at 4095, and Neo4K will automatically add an extra line to the edge, and then I setup a PREMIERE project at full 4096, for my "4095" wide file? (Or more likely a 2K project)

That is correct, either a 4096 wide project in AE, or Prospect 4K (coming soon, in private beta) or a standard 2048 wide project in Prospect 2K. In Premiere set it to default to scale to frame size. This way 4K and 2K can used interchangably. You can zoom around in 4K up to 200% without losing resolution, which is pretty nice.

[David Newman]

It opened in FCP for me, but not in Color or Nuke. I may have done something wrong though.

Currently Color support no third party codecs, only very particular codecs or file formats (in does support generic QuickTime.) This is a limitation Apple is looking into. It impacts Redcode as well.

Nuke, shouldn't have this limitation. Does it open ProRes, DNxHD or Sheer? All of these codec should support 16-bits per channel, like CineForm. If CineForm has an issue with Nuke we will happily address that.

[David Newman]

i'ts just an AVI codec like the rest. can you open others in Nuke? it works in Fusion...

AVI vs MOV also a factor. Many applications will work fine with AVI or MOV, but not the other (particularly on the PC.) Some applications are only 8-bit with AVI and 16-bit MOV (Combustion) or visa versa. To help overcome this limitation, we support rewrapping MOVs out of RedCine to AVIs for the applications that prefer that.

[Irri]

Hi David

I might have been a little quick to post that result. I just exported a file in Redcine then asked a compositor to see if it would open in Nuke. Nuke came up with a lengthy error message that I didn't read. There has also been an update to Nuke which we haven't installed. I'm out of the office now so I can't check ProRes etc.

[David Newman]

Irri,

let me now what you find with Nuke, even private message me the contents of the lengthy error message.

[jeremie]

i'll try with the newest version of nuke tonight, i ll tell you.

[jeremie]

hmm i m on vista64, redcine won't export (error writing frame 0 ) cineform4k, but work at 1080p, but shows up as the first frame freezed all the way.
and nuke is crashing when try to playback the file.
trying other settings, i ll let you know

[David Newman]

I didn't think RedCine liked Vista. What resolution did you export give you the error writing frame 0. You should also write a DPX with the same setting and compare -- that we we can determine which is a QT/CineForm export bug, and which is a RedCine bug, and maybe which is a Vista bug. We have only tested OSX 10.4 and Window XP-32bit, both now are working well in our tests.

[jeremie]

hmm ok export seems to work at 4k ( i was using RED ONE 4K instead of 4K 2.1 ), 2k and 1080p, but when i try to playback the .mov the clip plays, but it shows me the first frame freezed during all the duration of the clip, same in other applications. It's like a 232 ( duration of my clip ) frames clip of one frame...
dpx works well.

Wow sorry for my crappy english.

[Sanjin Jukic]

I didn't think RedCine liked Vista.
Nobody likes VISTA.

Not even SCRATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but our BillG is still a cash cow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????!!!!!!!!!!! !!????????????

[David Newman]

hmm ok export seems to work at 4k ( i was using RED ONE 4K instead of 4K 2.1 ), 2k and 1080p, but when i try to playback the .mov the clip plays, but it shows me the first frame freezed during all the duration of the clip, same in other applications. It's like a 232 ( duration of my clip ) frames clip of one frame...
dpx works well.

Wow sorry for my crappy english.

We have seen the frozen frame issue, but not often, and is was OS X. Seems RedCine might be running out of memory, as the compression uses memory also. We will be looking more into that.

[Anders Holck]

David, Redcine seems to have that occational problem with all QT codecs on Mac Os X.

[David Newman]

I just reproducted the one frame bug using Sheer, so in not just CineForm. Seems there is memory issue using 16-bit codecs with RedCine. I hope they get fixed soon.

Just saw your post, thanks Anders.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Hi, David, and thanks very much for your input here and work on the Cineform products that will support RED.

I've never edited anything but SD DV, so this is all new territory for me. But I would REALLY like to keep editing in Vegas.

You've spoken several times about Premiere Pro. Can you comment on how Cineform codecs perform in Vegas and, specifically, how these new 2K and 4K products work in Vegas? (I know Vegas maxes out at 2K but am happy to see that they now support 32-bit floating point color in version 8.) Are there workflow advantages specific to using your codecs in Premiere or a PC app other than Vegas? And do you have an opinion on which Vegas will handle better -- the MOVs from REDCINE or the ones rewrapped into AVIs by Cineform?

[jeremie]

I m really excited about this cineform4k, was wondering how i ll handle 4k vfx work, now i ve got my answer.
David do you have any like comparaison pics or so between your codec and dpx?

[Mark Pedersen]

David,

Great to see you and David Taylor on this Forum. Welcome to the revolution! :)

Can't wait to dig into Cineform 4K once my camera arrives.

Best,
Mark

[David Newman]

Hi, David, and thanks very much for your input here and work on the Cineform products that will support RED.

I've never edited anything but SD DV, so this is all new territory for me. But I would REALLY like to keep editing in Vegas.

You've spoken several times about Premiere Pro. Can you comment on how Cineform codecs perform in Vegas and, specifically, how these new 2K and 4K products work in Vegas? (I know Vegas maxes out at 2K but am happy to see that they now support 32-bit floating point color in version 8.) Are there workflow advantages specific to using your codecs in Premiere or a PC app other than Vegas? And do you have an opinion on which Vegas will handle better -- the MOVs from REDCINE or the ones rewrapped into AVIs by Cineform?

Vegas will use the Video for Codec at 444 (good) up to 2K (which is OK), in 8-bit (not so good.) We intend to support the 32-bit modes within Vegas, it just takes time, and we some many projects.

P.S. Any programmers out their want to do the Vegas implementation for us :)

[David Newman]

I m really excited about this cineform4k, was wondering how i ll handle 4k vfx work, now i ve got my answer.
David do you have any like comparaison pics or so between your codec and dpx?

Start with a DPX, look at it, and that is what CineForm 444 looks like :biggrin: In the past I ran an informal competition to see whether people could determine which files where uncompressed and which compression as CineForm 444. There are a bunch of blog examples on this here: http://cineform.blogspot.com/

Particularly relevent entries:

Visually Lossless and how to back it up : http://cineform.blogspot.com/2007/09/visual-lossless-and-how-to-back-it-up.html
HDCam-SR vs CineForm 444 : http://cineform.blogspot.com/2007/04/mastering-to-hdcam-sr-vs-cineform-444.html
Green Screen Challenge (a.k.a. can you tell the difference between uncompressed and compressed) : http://cineform.blogspot.com/2007/03/green-screen-challenge.html

[jbeale]

P.S. Any programmers out their want to do the Vegas implementation for us :)

Unlikely that I'd have the skillset to implement that, but I'm curious about it in general. Is there some published API that Sony offers to developers for Vegas 8 giving access to the 32-bit float representations internally? I thought 3rd parties were stuck with the existing limits of 8-bit export from Vegas via whatever path it provides (VfW?) regardless of whatever programming the 3rd parties might do on their end.

As Glenn Chan pointed out to me, Vegas 8 can output uncompressed in 32-bit float mode, which I tried and the resulting AVI is actually 128 bits per pixel ! (includes 32 bits pad, it seems). So you could convert that externally, but with the obvious shockingly large storage overhead penalty.

[I Bloom]

These betas are for Windows only... correct?

[David Newman]

These betas are for Windows only... correct?

NEO 4K and Prospect 2K are Windows only, however in the first post I also link the Mac version of the codec.

Here it is again:

CineForm Mac Codec (2K)-- http://www.cineform.com/downloads/CFHDCodec-MacOSv1.4.0.43-071116.zip

It is currently limited to 2048x2048 resolution. We will offer the resolution unlimited version for Mac in a few weeks. Note: FCP is limited to 2K at the moment.

[David Newman]

Is there some published API that Sony offers to developers for Vegas 8 giving access to the 32-bit float representations internally? I thought 3rd parties were stuck with the existing limits of 8-bit export from Vegas via whatever path it provides (VfW?) regardless of whatever programming the 3rd parties might do on their end.

There is an API for 32-bit float I/O support for Vegas. We just haven't found the time to use the Vegas API in the same way we have done for Premiere and After Effects.

[jbeale]

There is an API for 32-bit float I/O support for Vegas. We just haven't found the time to use the Vegas API in the same way we have done for Premiere and After Effects.

That is quite interesting, I did not know that API was available. Can you give me a pointer to a web page, or a contact at Sony Creative Software who could hook me up with that API? Thanks!

[David Newman]

That is quite interesting, I did not know that API was available. Can you give me a pointer to a web page, or a contact at Sony Creative Software who could hook me up with that API? Thanks!

I don't think is available for a public download, but development partners can get it.

[Rob Lohman]

Nobody likes VISTA.

Not even SCRATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm pretty sure Scratch should run on Vista these days (but it might not be supported). REDCINE seems to work on Vista, but we're not supporting it yet.

Keep in mind this is on the 32-bit platforms. The 64-bit platforms might be a different game.

[David Taylor]

We have posted a FAQ on the CineForm site showing settings for RedCine exports to CineForm 444 MOV files, including the workaround for the 4096 export bug. http://www.cineform.com/products/FAQ.htm#RedSupport

Also, we have posted the Trial of Neo 4K directly through the Downloads area of our site so you don't have to hunt through posts in this thread.

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Vegas will use the Video for Codec at 444 (good) up to 2K (which is OK), in 8-bit (not so good.) We intend to support the 32-bit modes within Vegas, it just takes time, and we some many projects.


Any time frame on when you expect to get full implementation within Vegas? I don't get my camera until April. Would sure love to have the editing platform worked out by then.

ETA: I see David Taylor is responding to similar questions in the Vegas thread, so perhaps we should consolidate further discussion there. (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6022&page=2)

[Dalibor Fencl]

Hi Davids,

my question is: Is RAW (Redcode or Cineform) to given colorspace development lossy operation in terms of latitude in any color? (I don't mean any compression artifacts and so here.)

[David Newman]

Hi Davids,

my question is: Is RAW (Redcode or Cineform) to given colorspace development lossy operation in terms of latitude in any color? (I don't mean any compression artifacts and so here.)

Not inherently, no. If you development the image with increased saturation, corrected white balance, brightness and contrast, then those operations can truncate adjust the upper and lower bounds of the target color gamut. Using PDLog or Cineon Log protects against such clipping. It is a mistake to develop your look so the image looks nice on your display and then output from RedCine with the same curve, if you intend to enhance the color in down-stream tools. Get your approxiate look, then output with a log preserving curve, that you can reverse as needed in post.

[Dalibor Fencl]

Thanks David, I'm just not sure I understand what is Log Preserving Curve.

Maybe just a link helps ...?

[David Newman]

Thanks David, I'm just not sure I understand what is Log Preserving Curve.

Maybe just a link helps ...?

PDLog will do the trick. I'm not sure what REDLog does, so I can't recommend it yet. PDLog typically sets white at 685 out of 1023 (for 10-bit), leaving plenty of code words remaining for whites greater than white. This way you can saturate and white balance without clipping highlights for downstream processing.

[Jason Sinclair]

It would be a bit misleading to imply that Cineform will be able to open REDCODE RAW without a transcode. RED has agreements in place, at least for a certain time period, that would prohibit this type of native support.

The long term plan is to have REDCODE support, and be supported by, as many companies as possible. But I would be careful about making a purchase based on a loose inference of full support with no time period stated.

Jim
It's a shame that cineform is out of any agreements as it is probably the closet to acheiving a good 4k workflow at present and matches the ideal of small companies with intelligent ideas that have seen RED grab such a foothold in camera technology business. I hope this is sorted out because to me CineForm and RED are a partnership made in heaven. But in business people have to make agreements and sometimes those agreements have to be protected. Such a shame.

[Thor Wixom]

We have only tested with the two clips upload, as we sadly don't have a access to Red cameras. So I look forward to others with footage to help us refine our products.

David,

My camera (137) is now only weeks away. My offer still stands to shoot footage for Cineform to use for R&D.

My email is thor2loki@comcast.net.

-Thor

[David Newman]

Thank you. We have had a little help form a few other users, so we are starting to get a range of footage. Of course the camera continues to improve so we will need more footage that reflects the upgrades.

Thanks again.

[Nathan Troutman]

This has been a very interesting read to go through this thread. Certainly output ONCE from Redcine into a format (cineform) for both online and offline is very nice. However on the FCP side 4K editing is not supported (as far as I know) so you'd still have to generate a 2K cineform file to edit with FCP and then re-conform to 4K and finish on some other system.

Also, I believe the reason the BIG RED MAN jumped in on this is specifically because of the Red/Apple partnership with FCP. On the Mac side with FCP the plan is to ultimately have all of what Redcine does built into FCP itself for native Redcode editing and native Redcine-equivalent 1st color correction options. Meaning the final endgame for FCP users would be to shoot Redcode and then simply open FCP. You can edit, do all of your Redcine operations, and then when you're done you export to whatever final formats you need. The rumors I've always heard is that Color will eventually open up to 4K rendering support so you can then finish there. With this workflow you will never transcode until you're done and you export your final movie. Granted this is all made possible because Redcode can run off 2K, 1K, & 720P proxies which allows FCP to handle the editing and allows Color to still work in real-time using the proxies. The big advantage in this workflow is obvious - never have to bake-in to an editing format AND also allows you to do your 1st color-correction with the Redcine tools inside FCP AFTER you've put together your edit.

If I'm dreaming all of this up - please someone correct me:love:

[JoshBertrand]

I'm beginning to become more interested in the Cineform workflow for the Mac to now. Keeping files in 4K in a 1080P FCP timeline with 444 color would be ideal for me. Can FCP handle that, or is Premiere the only solution for that now?

[David Newman]

FCP is limited to 2K exports. We will seeing what tricks we can manage to get 4K into FCP. However initially the 4K workflow will be effects work only on the Mac, and the PC will support 4K online editing.

[Rob Lohman]

I'm beginning to become more interested in the Cineform workflow for the Mac to now. Keeping files in 4K in a 1080P FCP timeline with 444 color would be ideal for me. Can FCP handle that, or is Premiere the only solution for that now?

How is this different from what REDCODE is doing now? You're loading 4K footage into whatever timeline you want.

FCP can currently only handle 2K footage, so there's no way to really load actual 4K footage (or render that out). Hopefully that will change....

[Troy Smith]

i thought the difference is that the redcode ref qt files will not render out of fcp as good quality, because its from the ref qt file, which i've read somewhere by a red person that there maybe some aliasing etc, but that may change in the future, so the difference being, u could finish in fcp with the cineform, where as with the redcode files you have to render them from redcine for the final conform to prores or which ever codec before making a final render out of fcp? Or go to scratch for the final conform and render?

Is this true, or is the redcode qt ref files rendering straight out of fcp at a perfect quality render, good enough for 2k master? If not then I see the cineform being quite useful if one doesnt want to do a conform in scratch or what not after they've finished editing.

[Nathan Troutman]

FCP can currently only handle 2K footage, so there's no way to really load actual 4K footage (or render that out). Hopefully that will change....

I hate to read anything in to that, but I am:ph34r:

With native Redcode support in FCP, 4K rendering and export in FCP, Color, Motion, etc, & a Redcine plug-in for FCP and I don't know how a Red owner wouldn't be getting an Mac Pro and buying Final Cut Studio. This is a super workflow. Remember PC people the Mac Pro can also run XP natively. So partition your hard drive and you can have a Mac and a PC all on the same machine:innocent:

[Troy Smith]

As far as running xp on a mac, I thought that you need boot camp or somethign to run it on a mac, so it's running emulator style, not as solid as a straight install, or have things changed in the last month or so?

stricko

[David Taylor]

Nathan, it is as Rob said - you get 2K out of FCP, not 4K. Hopefully this will change.

If you use ProRes for your FCP export you get 2K YUV. If you use CineForm 444 you get 2K 444. 2K 444 will be an appropriate export resolution for the majority of projects, so there is a viable finishing workflow using FCP. But currently without CineForm 444 you would normally go out through ProRes, and I would hate to see you do this as the delivery resolution is only marginally larger than HD.

Otherwise FCP is your proxy edit station with a 2K/4K finish elsewhere, such as with Scratch.

[Kenn Michael]

As far as running xp on a mac, I thought that you need boot camp or somethign to run it on a mac, so it's running emulator style, not as solid as a straight install, or have things changed in the last month or so?

stricko

Bootcamp allows you to boot into a straight install of XP or Vista. It's not running in emulation. Lucas from Assimilate talked about running Scratch successfully in XP on a Mac Pro using Bootcamp.

[Troy Smith]

Bootcamp allows you to boot into a straight install of XP or Vista. It's not running in emulation. Lucas from Assimilate talked about running Scratch successfully in XP on a Mac Pro using Bootcamp.

cool, that's good to know.

[SalaTar]

Otherwise FCP is your proxy edit station with a 2K/4K finish elsewhere, such as with Scratch.

and that is the issue

[SalaTar]

Bootcamp allows you to boot into a straight install of XP or Vista. It's not running in emulation.


This is WRONG...
it is running an emulation.

[Nathan Troutman]

Nathan, it is as Rob said - you get 2K out of FCP, not 4K. Hopefully this will change.

I was talking about the last part of what he said - hopefully that will change. . . If you read into that then you might get the idea that Final Cut Studio might go to 4k sometime down the road. I'm sure Red would be a big part of pushing for that. So maybe Rob is just teasing us dropping little hints. Red should know the plans Apple has with Final Cut Studio.

Boot Camp directly boots a Mac Pro into XP or Vista(I believe Vista works too.) This is not an emulation. So when you take into account that the price of a Mac Pro is very competitive compared to a similarly equipped Dell. I'm not sure exactly why you would go Mac if you're on the fence. It gives you more options.

[JoshBertrand]

How is this different from what REDCODE is doing now? You're loading 4K footage into whatever timeline you want.

FCP can currently only handle 2K footage, so there's no way to really load actual 4K footage (or render that out). Hopefully that will change....

Rob, I haven't tested any Cineform workflows but I suppose it is similar to transcoding to ProRes at this point in Final Cut (though with a 4:4:4 option). What I'd love to be able to do is put 4k (or 3k) files into a 1080p sequence so I have a little room for stabilizing or reframing. I have no interest in a 4k finish as I lack a venue for it. The biggest deal right now is just performance. On my quad-core Mac Pro 1k RedQuick files play back fine, but I'm looking to edit and finish from the same files and a little extra resolution would be great. ProRes is possibly a viable solution in the future if Apple supports higher than 2k resolution, and Redcode RGB might work just as well once it is finished. I'm only considering Cineform as they seem to be on the cusp of providing the ability to transcode to a 4k 4:4:4 format that will playback in a 2k (or 1080p) sequence (albeit not in Final Cut yet). Once this is working on the Mac (preferrably in FCP, but I'll run it in Premiere if need be) I'll give the beta a go and see what the real-time performance is like.

I'd love to use Recode RAW through the whole process with no transcodes, but I feel like the ability to do that comfortably in real-time is a long time away. If it's not then I'll do a little happy jig right now. Ultimately we have to find a way that works best for each of our needs at the time we need it. Keep up the freakin' amazing work you guys are doing. Much respect!

[Rob Lohman]

That's exactly what you can do today. Load the 2K QuickTime file into your 1080 FCP timeline. No transcode needed. This has been working for the last two months.

Or am I missing something?

[David Newman]

That's exactly what you can do today. Load the 2K QuickTime file into your 1080 FCP timeline. No transcode needed. This has been working for the last two months.

Or am I missing something?

Maybe. Can you online with these proxies? Are they 4:4:4 encoded? Do they support the 32-bit float modes of FCP? Are they fast enougth? Are they movable to other applications and platforms? While some of these are likely true for an Redcode QT proxy, likely not all, and therefore there are reasons to use CineForm. It will depend on the user's needs. Always best to try out all your workflow options.

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

No worries there Jim, we're only interested in transcoding, nothing else was being implied. Transcoding everyone's camera format to CineForm is what we do well, native support is a thing for the big NLE vendors. We are quite happy that RedCine works as well as it does for rendering out to CineForm. Once the 4096 wide bug in fixed RedCine we are all set. Thanks for following the thread.
well, I think that its no technical problem making HDlink convert REDCODE RAW to CineForm Raw... except that for agreements which I don't understand much... But, I think the agreements problems would implement things such as IRIDAS/Assimilate handling of the footage,,, Cineform RAW uses IRIDAS .look files to apply look to the Cineform RAW footage from SI-2k,
if converted from REDCODE to Cineform RAW then it would be possible to use thoose .look with the converted material... which I think Assimilate wouldn't like that much as they're supporting the native REDCODE on their system...

well, I don't know much about that, its just thinking out...
but, REALLY it would be great to have this conversion from REDCODE to Cineform RAW available... the best of all .. is of course having direct support of REDCODE in all apps...

[Karl H]

I would ask this...

Am I correct in assuming if you import Redcode, when you render on the FCP timeline you would have to render back to another codec such as prores? So anything with an effect on it would suddenly be a different quality/compression? If I edit in Redcode, what do I produce a master as?

Also, can you import Redcode into color right now?

Equally I'd ask if cineform stays in a singe 4:4:4 codec throughout the pipeline and CC? If so then thats a huge reason to go cinefom, along with is superior realtime performance. If you cant take cineform into color, then thats a bitch. But at least you can take it into AE or combustion for VFX work and render out at the same quality.

Anyone know the answer to these questions?

[Mike Zinner]

darkline, from what I have gathered so far (no guarantee that it is true):

1) Apple Color does not work with Quicktime codecs at this point, so it is not possible to use Redcode RAW Qucktime wrappers nor Cineform. I am sure Apple is working on fixing that but at the moment you have to render out image sequences (DPX, etc.). This is does not work for me at all so I will not use Color until that is fixed.

2) If you got the money, Assimilate SCRATCH ($30k for the full system and best workflow) is the way to go. Full support for RED and agreements in place that guarantee a long partnership between the two.

3) Only affordable real-time online workflow (without any offline cutting cr*p) that is suited for my needs (effects work) is Cineform on Windows.

* That hits me hard because I have switched to Mac during the last 6 months and I do not want to go back - but I see it that way, Macs are the fastest machines to run Windows in Bootcamp, anyway. Btw. Premiere Pro on OS X is a new product and if I take a look at the support forum I see that it suffers from a lot of problems - and there is no Cineform Prospect for the Mac version yet, anyway.

* No direct conversion into Cineform RAW. I also see a chance that we will get direct conversion support in Cineform's HDLink - but Cineform will have to do reverse engineering of the REDs file format since I don't think there are any contracts in place and the only support Cineform gets from RED is generic support of all installed Quicktime codecs in RedCine (= which is exactly no support at all).

* But I also try to see this positive. Cineform Intermediate 444 can be decoded in real-time even faster than Cineform RAW and as soon as you have to apply a secondary color correction or any effects you have to render to Cineform Intermediate 444 anyway. The only drawback are the huge rendering times in RedCine - this is really is a pain. So I am not giving up my hope for the direct conversion to Cineform RAW in HDLink yet.

[Karl H]

Thanks Mike,

I was thinking about switching to FCP, but mainly for color. If the redcode/color workflow remains a problem for the next 6 months or so, then I would go cineform on the PC.

[David Taylor]

Mike and Darkline, you've both got it pretty much correct. The first concept is that both REDCODE and CineForm RAW are acquisition codecs. That means that when you render (from either codec) the result is in a non-Bayer codec. And yes, CineForm 444 is an excellent choice because of its 12-bit 444 (RGB characteristic). Most all other codecs used in post are YUV 4:2:2.

You can use CineForm RAW and CineForm 444 simultaneosuly on the timeline. So if you render portions of your timeline to CineForm 444 it works well.

Also as stated, Color does NOT support QT codecs. This is a problem with the architecture prior to Apple purchasing Color. Apple has assured us they realize this is a problem and it's on their list to fix, although we have no indication of where it is on the priority list as Color has other issues also.

[laguun]

Also as stated, Color does NOT support QT codecs. This is a problem with the architecture prior to Apple purchasing Color. Apple has assured us they realize this is a problem and it's on their list to fix, although we have no indication of where it is on the priority list as Color has other issues also.

Sadly, bit only color, but also FCP is limiting the quality for the use with red very much:
- it has no 4k, only 2k, so you need to dump 75% resolution
- it has only 8bit colordepth in RGB, which reduces the colorresolution, dependending on the source 20-40%, or one uses braodcast colors, yuv.

Therefore, for quality reasons, Adobe offers the much better quality the camera records: 4K and 16bit color/rgb are supported.

regarding some of the mayor differences between cineform and redcode via qt... (if i understand it correctly, please correct me if i am wrong, our tests with cineform are far from completed).

- Cineform is functional on windows and osx, redcode QT as of yet only OSX.
- Cineform is highquality and realtime, redcode QT is lowered quality realtime or non realtime.
- Cineform can be written by applications and be used as output/mastering and intermediate format, redcode QT can´t.

what i am unsure of: Cineform is up to 4K, redcodes QT wrapper gave me only 2K, but this may be related to our osx setup back then in november - running the first redalert version with only fcp, so it might have been an issue with qt or something else.

[David Taylor]

Laguun, there are a few things that third parties supporting FCP can do. FCP supports a 32-bit floating-point YUV mode which converts losslessly to 32-bit RGB. CineForm uses this mode for all renders within FCP. Although it's slower arithmetically than the parallelization we can do with higher bit depth integer processing, the latter is not an option in FCP. So we use 32-bit FP for all renders which is more precision than we need for 12-bit CineForm 444.

Yes FCP has a 2K limitation, although I've got to believe they will change this sometime soon. Meanwhile I suspect that many projects, even for theatrical release, will be finished at 2K, so 2K CineForm 444 is perfect as an online workflow in FCP (the issues with Color aside).

I don't know enough details about the plans for REDCODE evolution to comment, nor would it be appropriate. But CineForm Intermediate / 444 / RAW is cross-platform and cross-applications compatible and is designed for an online real-time workflow. CineForm files are used frequently in high-end workflows as the master format, and increasingly as a replacement for DPX files. We're actively working with numerous Hollywood facilities on compression-based workflows to augment what has been mostly an uncompressed DPX world to date. This becomes even more important as 4K becomes a more mainstream format.

To your final comment, in the current release of CineForm's Mac codec we limit spatial resolution to 2K because of FCPs limitations. However, very soon after New Year the next CineForm Mac codec release will support up to 4K. (Actually the spatial resolution will be unlimited, so you could go to 8K if you wanted). There is no limit on spatial resolution for P4K/N4K on Windows.

[laguun]

Laguun, there are a few things that third parties supporting FCP can do. FCP supports a 32-bit floating-point YUV mode which converts losslessly to 32-bit RGB. CineForm uses this mode for all renders within FCP. Although it's slower arithmetically than the parallelization we can do with higher bit depth integer processing, the latter is not an option in FCP. So we use 32-bit FP for all renders which is more precision than we need for 12-bit CineForm 444.

Nice - for us (as we have to deal with dpx and many other rgb formats roundtripping through softwares) sadly this sadly isn´t smooth.



Yes FCP has a 2K limitation, although I've got to believe they will change this sometime soon.

I really hope so. Not only for mastering in 4k, but also for large pan & scans, multiscreens etc 4k (and up) shhould really be supported by apple.



Meanwhile I suspect that many projects, even for theatrical release, will be finished at 2K, so 2K CineForm 444 is perfect as an online workflow in FCP (the issues with Color aside).

theatrical release is typically at 2k. however, especially for noise reduction, keying etc one usually drops from the maximum resolution (be it 1536, 2048 or whatever vertical) to 2k -as final step-. Additionally it makes no sense to shoot with a 4k camera just in order to erase 75% resolution before starting the online.

Same with audio. we record 24bit 96khz - even when the cd/broadcast master will be 16bit 44khz/48khz, or dolby digital via film low kbit rates.



I don't know enough details about the plans for REDCODE evolution to comment, nor would it be appropriate. But CineForm Intermediate / 444 / RAW is cross-platform and cross-applications compatible and is designed for an online real-time workflow.

Yes, thats was missing most for us in redcode - i sure hope red will go that way, once the urgent things as fileformatlockdown etc are final.



To your final comment, in the current release of CineForm's Mac codec we limit spatial resolution to 2K because of FCPs limitations. However, very soon after New Year the next CineForm Mac codec release will support up to 4K. (Actually the spatial resolution will be unlimited, so you could go to 8K if you wanted). There is no limit on spatial resolution for P4K/N4K on Windows.
Thanks for the information - and yees, we will certainly use 8k, as we do special venues sometimes. last project was for an opera, shot with 3 hdcam side by side and then projected/screened via multiple 1080p displays.

i have to admit, however, that i am still sceptical regarding datareduced and again datareduced workflows. we will test cineform en detail in january and i sure hope that the positive impression most users of your product told us will be reproduced here.

[David Taylor]

i have to admit, however, that i am still sceptical regarding datareduced and again datareduced workflows. we will test cineform en detail in january and i sure hope that the positive impression most users of your product told us will be reproduced here.

We accept and respect that everybody wants to test and verify the posted visual quality claims of CineForm compression. After all, compression has been a bad word in post (hence your skepticism), but mostly because people have tried to apply compression in post that was designed for cameras or distribution. It's only in rare cases that camera or distribution compression formats (HDCam, DVCPRO HD, MPEG (and variants), etc) are appropriate for post production. People began to use acquisition formats in post because it was convenient, even though those formats were never designed for the rigors of post.

When CineForm designed our compression, it was originally intended for 1) multi-generation post workflows, and 2) very high performance on Intel-architecture CPUs without the need for specialized hardware. Post requirements have significantly higher quality demands on compression algorithms than do cameras and distribution. We like to think we've done a pretty good job as indicated by the visual quality analysis of CineForm 444 compared to the respected HDCam SR format. For those who haven't seen that analysis, please see the Quality Analysis page on the CineForm website.

Laguun, after you perform your analysis, others on this site might be interested in the results.

[Thor Wixom]

David(s),

Not to change the subject (thank you, Laguun), but I do have a question about AMD processors.

AMD sent me 2 turnkey systems based on the first generation Opteron processors about 2 years ago.

They have served me well, but will they continue to serve me if I switch my workflow to Cineform? Or, will I need to invest in new Intel machines?

Thanks for all the questions you have answered over the past months. I look foward to your response.

-Thor

[David Taylor]

Thor, your Opteron's should work fine. Before Intel's architecture surge a couple years ago we recommended Opteron's exclusively. The Opteron' Hypertransport memory architecture works well with our algorithms.

[Jay A. Kelley]

David,

I asked this on an old thread with no response.. So I am trying here.. I am considering a Quadro FX 1700. Will this work well for your Cineform/Premiere workflow? I had thought to use the 8800gtx but I am hearing bad things about the "overlay". I am assuming the overlay is Premiere's Monitor, or is this just a feature that allows video output to the 2nd monitor on the system? I guess I should understand this first since my future capture card will most likely do this anyway.

Some education would be good here :)

Jay

[David Taylor]

Hi Jay, sorry for the slow response to your earlier question.

The recommended workflow for Prospect 2K/4K, whether CineForm 444, CineForm 422, or CineForm RAW, is to use an AJA Xena card for your reference display. In this case you don't use the overlay, so the discussion about the overlay surface of the 8800 is not relevant, and you can use whichever graphics card works best with RedCine. A choice to use the overlay for video preview is a compromise compared with an Xena LH/e.

However, if it is NOT an option to use a Xena card then issues with overlay support become relevant. NVidia in general does not do a good job with the overlay surface as it is better tuned for games. We tend to have better luck with ATI cards. We often recommend Matrox Parhelia cards but there is no GPU support for RedCine with Parhelia so this is probably not a good option in this case.

[Jay A. Kelley]

David,

I have been looking at the black magic cards.. Would they work? I like the fact that they are cross platform.

Jay

[David Taylor]

The SW architecture of the BM cards is different than AJA which is why we haven't supported them yet for monitoring (only capture). That said, we're working on it as we speak. No specific schedule, but hopefully in the next few weeks-ish.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hey,

I am trying to render a 1080p file using REDCine and Cineform.. But I keep getting FAILED TO RENDER FRAME 0

Any advice on this? The system is new so it's not old hardware

Jay

[David Newman]

Jay, please submit a trouble ticket at www.cineform.com/support so we can get to the bottom of this.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Wow,

Now THIS is the kind of fast response/support I was looking for.
Thank you David.

I have already submitted a ticket

Jay

[David Birdy]

David,

Can you give any details on the best hardware solutions available to work with your software.. I am very interested in developing a hardware & software solution that will yield SRW type quality.

Thanks

[David Newman]

David,

If by developing you mean, building a solution to market to others, you need to contact us directly. If you want a CineForm capture solution for SRW quality from dual-link or HDSDI, that does already exist, please see www.Wafian.com. Or you can convert your workstation with Prospect HD/2K/4K with an AJA card -- although Prospect only single link HDSDI only today.

[lance617]

Talked to David Taylor several times back in May. Happy to see the 4K version for the Red. Our DP for the upcoming film has been doing rigorous testing and seems to think the Red will work for us. I told the guys CineSys about the codec and they should have contacted you. They are putting together the Linix SAN (the XSAN just wasn't fast enough for our 4K workflow) and 4K finishing /4KDI Piranha systems for us. We will still be using FCPro for editing. If Red testing results meet our performance need for the film we will be using two REDs for the A & B cameras and one for steadicam, along with one or two Phantoms.

Which products will we need?
Will all your software be in final production form by end of February? (we begin PP Mar 17th)

Lance
Mockingbird Films

[David Newman]

Yes we expect, by the edit of Febrary the CineForm Mac workflow will be production ready at 4K, it is now at 2K 444. We are a bit further ahead on the PC, but Mac is a high priority for us.

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

Yes we expect, by the edit of Febrary the CineForm Mac workflow will be production ready at 4K, it is now at 2K 444. We are a bit further ahead on the PC, but Mac is a high priority for us.

WOOW :ohmy: .we will wait for it ..:huh:

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hey David, I filled out a ticket about 3 hours ago... What happens next?
Jay

[David Newman]

We only been at the office half that time. :) Jake is has sent a reply to say we are checking it out. We've been focusing on 4K exports, we need to retest 1080p.

[David Newman]

Do you get the "Estimating duration..." before the export failure as 1080p is working fine here. Make sure Keyframes is set to 1 -- RedCine incorrectly reads our decoder setting for keyframe support (our QT Encoder doesn't use keyframes.)

[Jay A. Kelley]

You need to call me, things have changed over here.. Problem now seems to be specific to your Codec... Quicktime seems to work with everything else (don't ask me why!!)

Jay

[Jay A. Kelley]

Quicktime is no longer frozen on Frame Zero with SOME codecs. If I had to take a guess on something, I would suggest to people that you install REDCine BEFORE quicktime. It's a shot in the dark, but it worked over here.

Cineform stills suffers from teh Cannot Write To Frame Zero problem

[David Newman]

Please open HDLink, to so if you have a licensing issue (I think Jake will ask you the same question) -- that tell if you are activated, or have x-days left on a trial. Also CineForm is one of the few codecs to use the 16-bit per channel mode, we have found some RedCine failures only occur using the deep pixel formats.

[Richard Andrewski]

Hi,

I am getting this issue too. I have even tried uninstalling Quicktime, installing Redcine and then using your Codec with quicktime and it doesn't work. Gives the "Processing" for just a second and then goes to the "Write Frame 0 error". Any ideas? I can get other codecs like MPeg4 to work but not Cineform HD.

[David Newman]

Hi,

I am getting this issue too. I have even tried uninstalling Quicktime, installing Redcine and then using your Codec with quicktime and it doesn't work. Gives the "Processing" for just a second and then goes to the "Write Frame 0 error". Any ideas? I can get other codecs like MPeg4 to work but not Cineform HD.

We are looking into what has changed, RedCine or CineForm, as it seems to be trying to negoiate for the wrong pixel format.

[Mat@imageWork]

Hi David

it is amazing to see how many talent are connected to this site...

Cineform's still support Iridias Speedgrade? Could you give us the bandwith NEO 4K and space with in NEO 4K for 10 min? Do you plan to put a hardware acceleration card to help the engine process? Did Cineform coded for multiprocessor (8 and more)?

Thanks a lot Mathieu

[David Newman]

Cineform's still support Iridias Speedgrade? Could you give us the bandwith NEO 4K and space with in NEO 4K for 10 min? Do you plan to put a hardware acceleration card to help the engine process? Did Cineform coded for multiprocessor (8 and more)?

Hi Mathieu,

Yes CineForm supports Speedgrade and vice-versa -- we are even share a both with them at NAB. For 4k by 2K footage CineForm RAW varies between 30-45MB/s (18-27GB for 10 minutes) and CineForm 444 varies from 60-90MB/s (36-54GB for 10minutes), you can also encode to 422 which puts you in-between. Hardware acceleration is a possibility, although software speed is already pretty good on fast workstations. We are threaded and tested up to 8 cores, although more should work fine.

[Mat@imageWork]

Thanks David,

On differents threads, people speak about export R3D in Cineform444 very quickly. Our main R3D problem is too to render in DPX or whatever intermediate codec to grade and finish your work. And after that we have 4K DPX bandwith to deal with. That's where cineform is usefull.

With all your experience now on Reduser forum by now (7 april 2008), how could we get cineform quickly with R3D. What is the best quality setting to use with cineform (flimscan 1 etc...) And finally, what are the compagny who are actually support Cineform (in a realtime and full quality preserve perspective)

Thanks again David

Mathieu
First shoot for a commercial with RED
See the video here. Take 2 min to laod (http://web.mac.com/frenchcancan/Frenchcancan/1-SNAP.html)

[David Newman]

Filmscan2 is our top quality, but it is completely overkill, particular for a bayer source developed to 4:4:4. Filmscan1 for 4K is fine. Shortly after NAB the remainder of the questions should be easier to address.

[Maz Mawlawi]

Using latest Redcine on a PC and installe trial version of Prospect 4K...when we try to export r3d file to cineform quicktime codec we also get the "frame 0" error.... this happens on 3 different computers....

[David Newman]

Yes, there is currently a RedCine bug with 16-bit QT codecs, well at least when using ours. We found that RedCine would work for CineForm if we only support one 8-bit pixel format, but that defeats the purpose of using CineForm compression. We have given Rob Lohman debug CineForm components to help determine the issue.

[Maz Mawlawi]

ok thanks David,
we plan on buying some prospect 4k license(s) once it's working. We also have a few hardware question but I will email cineform directly for that.

thanks for your support1

[Lauri Kettunen]

David,

Should I be able to export from REDCINE to Cineform mov-files in a PC? Do I need Quicktime Pro for that? I'm pretty sure I as able to export files with the previous REDCINE version, but no longer.The standard instructions of uninstalling etc does not help.

I'm trying to export 2K (not 2K, 2:1) files created with my RED. The system yields an error message in exporting the first frame.

[Maz Mawlawi]

Lauri,

it appears there is a bug with the latest version of Redcine exporting to Cineform. David and co are looking into it. (it has to do with 8 and 16bit exports)

[Jannard]

Yes, there is currently a RedCine bug with 16-bit QT codecs, well at least when using ours. We found that RedCine would work for CineForm if we only support one 8-bit pixel format, but that defeats the purpose of using CineForm compression. We have given Rob Lohman debug CineForm components to help determine the issue.

I thought we were going to wait until our development was done? We are rebuilding REDCODE from scratch as we have said before. And we are not going to spend time de-bugging anything until we are done. Then we will release the SDK. I thought that was pretty clear?

Jim

[Maz Mawlawi]

lol....Jim it was pretty clear....but some of us never give up....we want evertyhing NOW....like little impatient kids....:bleh:

ok..ok...we'll wait for the SDK.......:blush:

[Jannard]

My mistake on this one... ignore my post. Sorry.

Jim

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

David, we are getting "failed to write frame 0" no matter what (size, computer, process, kyframes...).
ANy way to avoid this at present time?

Also, how can you differenciate if the qt export was done at 8bits or 16bits (i mean, how am i sure the information stored in the qt file comes at 16bits into the codec compressor and does not enter at 8bits ending at 16bits?)

[David Newman]

Hi Macgregor,

Good to met you at NAB, and that 4K playback 16x9 issue was fixed that same night.

The RedCine "failed to write frame 0" is the CineForm Catch-22 -- we can't ship what works today, and what ships today doesn't work for CineForm yet. We don't think RedCine has ever correctly worked with 16-bit codecs, if we offer 8-bit first it seems to work, but we are not interested in offering an 8-bit solution. We don't think it is our bug and as we are never given a frame to compress, but I have given Rob Lohman a debug component and we are happy to change anything if needed. In the meantime DPX exports from RedCine is the only quality way to data into CineForm files.

[Sean]

What would be the main steps in geting DPX to Cineform? Is it just a matter of exporting DPX sequences from RedCine and then using a Cineform product to convert those files to Cineform HD? I wonder if there's an advantage to that step when importing to Avid, rather than just importing the DPX directly to Avid and allowing for Avid to transcode it to DNxHD?

[David Newman]

What would be the main steps in geting DPX to Cineform? Is it just a matter of exporting DPX sequences from RedCine and then using a Cineform product to convert those files to Cineform HD? I wonder if there's an advantage to that step when importing to Avid, rather than just importing the DPX directly to Avid and allowing for Avid to transcode it to DNxHD?

The CineForm tools provide a DPX to CineForm conversion utility, however that is not likely the best workflow for Avids which have to convert CineForm files to DNxHD anyway.

[Maz Mawlawi]

...you appear to already have a working product...I am not sure I understand why RED is even asking you to wait for the SDK...I mean you obviously don;t need it for cineform products to work properly. I can't wait for your product(s) to come out David, The NAB demo was very impressive and made us realize how behind Redcine is......Right now Redcine is a piece of junk.... I said it before...Love the Camera, HATE the software....(ok now that I vented my frustration I feel better...) ;-)

[Sean]

The CineForm tools provide a DPX to CineForm conversion utility, however that is not likely the best workflow for Avids which have to convert CineForm files to DNxHD anyway.

That's what I thought. Thank you for confirming that!


...you appear to already have a working product...I am not sure I understand why RED is even asking you to wait for the SDK...I mean you obviously don;t need it for cineform products to work properly. I can't wait for your product(s) to come out David, The NAB demo was very impressive and made us realize how behind Redcine is......Right now Redcine is a piece of junk.... I said it before...Love the Camera, HATE the software....(ok now that I vented my frustration I feel better...) ;-)

You're not alone in your frustation, obviously. But from other posts, including a couple from Jim Jannard, it sounds like RedCine will be re-released with the new Build 16 factored in. But it's all sort of reading between the lines a bit. I'm a bit confused.

[Scott Webster]

The RedCine "failed to write frame 0" is the CineForm Catch-22 -- we can't ship what works today, and what ships today doesn't work for CineForm yet. We don't think RedCine has ever correctly worked with 16-bit codecs, if we offer 8-bit first it seems to work, but we are not interested in offering an 8-bit solution. We don't think it is our bug and as we are never given a frame to compress, but I have given Rob Lohman a debug component and we are happy to change anything if needed. In the meantime DPX exports from RedCine is the only quality way to data into CineForm files.

David,

Just getting my head around what is achievable with Cineform.
Neo 4k lists on your page that it is possible to output from RedCine to Cineform 444:

Support for exporting from RedCine to CineForm MOV files

Is that not correct? You still have to go to DPX and then to Cineform?

What will the future workflow be? Will it bypass RedCine altogether?
r3d>Cineform with Active Metadata control?

[David Taylor]

Rocketeer, in the first RedCine release it was possible to export 8-bit CineForm MOV files, but never 10/12-bit CineForm files. With updates both Red and CineForm have made, no exports currently work properly. Red has all the information they need from us to update the QT components on their end. But I suspect their future updates are waiting for Build 16 which requires a new build of RedCine anyway. I have updated our website to reflect this.

It is our intention to not need RedCine after the Red SDK is released.

[Maz Mawlawi]

It is our intention to not need RedCine after the Red SDK is released.

Music to my ears!..........:biggrin:

[donatello b]

today i finally did some 2k proxy in FCP and exported out to 2k cineform ...
i then did same clips exported to ProRes HQ ... the cineform had just slightly more detail in blacks ... other then that -so close i can't call it .. do prefer the shadow detail ..

took the cineform clips to a PC and dropped them in Vegas (used 24p 1080 template and customed it to 2k ) ... viewing on a Dell 24" monitor they looked excellent ... tried some 30-40% move in and still excellent ...

on a year old 24" iMac ( dual core) it's borrowed, so don't know much about it... using same clip in FCP
2k proxy's to 2k ProResHQ approx 6 min
2k proxy to 2k cineform approx 17 min
4k R3D in Redcine and render out to 2k cineform = when it said 23hrs i cancelled ...

[laguun]

on a year old 24" iMac ( dual core) it's borrowed, so don't know much about it... using same clip in FCP
2k proxy's to 2k ProResHQ approx 6 min
2k proxy to 2k cineform approx 17 min
4k R3D in Redcine and render out to 2k cineform = when it said 23hrs i cancelled ...
There seems to be a bug in your system: cineform transcodes rather at ~10 frames per second, much faster than redcine.

[donatello b]

"There seems to be a bug in your system: cineform transcodes rather at ~10 frames per second, much faster than redcine."

could be a bug ... using older redcine build 72 because newer versions don't work on the mac here ...
i think the 10 frames per second is on 8 core systems ...

bottom line is Red to Cineform looks excellent !!!

[Vladimir Eugene]

"There seems to be a bug in your system: cineform transcodes rather at ~10 frames per second, much faster than redcine."

could be a bug ... using older redcine build 72 because newer versions don't work on the mac here ...
i think the 10 frames per second is on 8 core systems ...

bottom line is Red to Cineform looks excellent !!!

Nice meeting you at the Reduser Party, what you're saying sounds very good. Did that 2K file play in realtime in Vegas. Was it 8 bit or 10?

Vladimir