PDA

View Full Version : Vegas



Gbabymogul
11-18-2007, 04:27 PM
Not much posted about using Vegas, but now that redcine is out, maybe we could get a workflow going. Not having used Vegas before but considering it now, what would be th best workflow to get a 1080p final master for festivals etc...


1) Shoot 4K RAW.
2) Load footy into computer.
3) Process in Redcine, and output either,
a) qt proxies (reference r3d files) possible?.
b) or scale to 720/1080 best format to edit and monitor 720/1080p in Vegas realtime, which one ?
4) edit
5) generate edl
6) import edl and generate a pull list
and
___________________________________
high end finish
a) go directly into Luki's cg/conform/data management (work directly)
b) take dpx's into high end suite for color grade, mix, and output deliverable for film out or high end master format...HD/SD Video - Rec. 709 color space, gamma 2.2, 10 bit 4:4:4 or 8 bit 4:2:2 , D-Cinema (DCI) - XYZ color space, gamma 2.6, 12 bit linear color resolution , Film - Kodak LUTs, gamma 2.6, Kodak Vision color print film, Fujicolor positive print 3513/3516 7
___________________________________
for indies
7) manual conform from pull list
OR
8) use pull list to take clips, scale to 1080p,
(possible to take into other indie program to conform, which ?)
9) Go into color grading program for final cg (using either pull list manual conform or conform from other program).
10) output deliverables
11) take to post house for full output
HD/SD Video - HDCAM SR, D5, HDCAM, Digibeta, DCI approved data files (TIFF, DPX, JPEG 2000), dubs: , DVD, HD DVD, Blue-ray, for festival and screeners for sales agents etc...

The only questions I have are :

1. What format to output from redcine to edit the best quality and real 24fps 1080p/720p in Vegas ?
2. Is the color grading in Vegas good enough so that you don't have to go to another program to color grade it with ? And which would you choose for festival and distribution ?
3. What kind of computing power will you need with 1080p 24fps (depending on format best to edit in vegas with). Is it possible to build a cheap computer just for that and processing raw to diff. formats.
I keep hearing that Vegas, despite a good computer, doesn't display, edit or monitor real time 1080p 24fps. Is that true ? Anyway to edit and monitor real time ?
2. How do you monitor 1080p out of Vegas, especially to a projector for dailies ?
3. Has anyone tried editing a project yet shot on red in Vegas ? What was your project settings, finishing apps, advice ?

forgive the ignorance about vegas please and feel free to tell me what it can do and can't, currently. i have no idea what is possible with it, but since no one else was mentioning it ;)

Obrigado :beer:

jbeale
11-18-2007, 05:17 PM
I've been using Vegas for several years to edit DV and HDV material, but I can't help with your questions since I don't have a high-end computer. Do you really need real-time 1080p to edit with? I'm not doing national broadcast stuff, but it's certainly possible to edit with a lot lower resolution than the final output...

I will say that Vegas can accept pretty much any format you are likely to use. For example the H.264 .mov and .mp4 example files that people have posted here, load into Vegas just fine.

Gbabymogul
11-18-2007, 05:33 PM
Do you really need real-time 1080p to edit with? I'm not doing national broadcast stuff, but it's certainly possible to edit with a lot lower resolution than the final output...

Ideally, I want to edit and finish in 1080p in a small studio for fest and alternative distribution, and then go back to a 4K master if and when we decide to go theatrical or get distribution. Primarily this is because then i can check at the deliverable level, focus, composition, color, artifacts, motion, not to mention we just like editing in 1080p.

And i'm still deciding on what nle and computer to get. Actually, i' a wee bit surpised more people haven't mentioned vegas as a great price and non-proprietary option.



:beer:

Gbabymogul
11-18-2007, 05:38 PM
II will say that Vegas can accept pretty much any format you are likely to use. For example the H.264 .mov and .mp4 example files that people have posted here, load into Vegas just fine.

Someones gotta want red & vegas :)


:beer:

jbeale
11-18-2007, 05:56 PM
Vegas tops out at 2048 x 2048 resolution, so if you need 4k output you would definitely need to go elsewhere. It has primary and secondary color correction tools which are perfectly adequate for my event video work, but I'm not a professional colorist.

Right now I'd opine Vegas is not ideal for theatrical work, because it only has one output format at >8 bit depth. That being 10-bit Sony YUV, a format probably little known outside of Vegas users. The current version, Vegas 8 actually has a 32-bit per pixel floating point format, but that is only internal to the program for now. Maybe they will expand the output formats later.

If you're really curious, I think Vegas has a free trial, so you can test it.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/product.asp?pid=457

SalaTar
11-18-2007, 06:01 PM
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5976

Gbabymogul
11-18-2007, 07:19 PM
hmm, i don't have an intel mac, so i can't test red workflow to vegas. Any input would be much appreciated ...

:beer:

David Taylor
11-18-2007, 07:58 PM
One option is to consider exporting CineForm files out of RedCine. They are fully compatible with Vegas.

Finner
11-19-2007, 01:21 PM
I'm a little confused by people set on using avid or vegas over final cut. Arguments aside of which system is better it just seems that if a person plans to mainly use red then final cut is the clear winner.

It's been quite evident for a long time now that red and apple are in bed together and it only makes sense that final cut (as far as red features and options) will always be a few steps ahead of other editing programs. Especially with reds plan to always improve and change. So why invest and build a system that will always be behind? I just don't get it?

jbeale
11-19-2007, 01:51 PM
One option is to consider exporting CineForm files out of RedCine. They are fully compatible with Vegas.
This is very interesting... can Vegas handle input and output of higher bit depths than 8 bits, via cineform? For some reason I thought it was still restricted to 8 bits, but I'd be happy to hear differently.

Joe Carney
11-19-2007, 07:52 PM
This is very interesting... can Vegas handle input and output of higher bit depths than 8 bits, via cineform? For some reason I thought it was still restricted to 8 bits, but I'd be happy to hear differently.

Me too. I don't know when Cineform will offer Neo 2K Edit with full 10bit support in Vegas 8. But if we keep asking, I'm sure they will respond.

I would love to use Red and Vegas togther, just have to be patient.

As far as resolution, I'm hoping the RED QT proxie files work fine in Vegas, so actual 4K isn't needed.

Also, Vegas will be one of the first true 64bit NLEs early next year, so I'm wondering what features will be added at that time. Will it be enough to move to Vista 64? hmmmmm.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
11-21-2007, 05:01 AM
My workflow was simple.
We created qts proxies in redalert in a a mac. With QT pro we re-encoded them as photo jpeg files wich was fast. Maybe it took us half a day to recompress all files preserving the file name.

With the qt photo jpeg files we edited in vegas normally, and export and edl. After effects opens the EDL. With the edl in hand he manually replace the video files with dpx sequences exported in redalert. DPX take ages to render.

Color correcting in AE and done!

David Taylor
11-21-2007, 07:34 AM
I don't know when Cineform will offer Neo 2K Edit with full 10bit support in Vegas 8. But if we keep asking, I'm sure they will respond.



I apologize for the slow response to this good question. Paraphrasing and embellishing from a quote by David Newman in a different thread:

Currently Vegas will use the CineForm Video for Windows Codec at 444 (good), at up to 2K (which is OK), but currently with 8-bit precision (not so good.) Yes Vegas now supports floating point, but CineForm needs to access its floating point modes through its API. Previously all CineForm support in Vegas has been managed through traditional codec interfaces. We intend to support the 32-bit modes within Vegas, it just takes time as we're working on a number of RAW worfklow features right now.

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
11-21-2007, 11:23 AM
I apologize for the slow response to this good question. Paraphrasing and embellishing from a quote by David Newman in a different thread:

Currently Vegas will use the CineForm Video for Windows Codec at 444 (good), at up to 2K (which is OK), but currently with 8-bit precision (not so good.) Yes Vegas now supports floating point, but CineForm needs to access its floating point modes through its API. Previously all CineForm support in Vegas has been managed through traditional codec interfaces. We intend to support the 32-bit modes within Vegas, it just takes time as we're working on a number of RAW worfklow features right now.


2K RGB 10 bit would really be just perfect for vegas. Will it be real time? Has anyone tried?

Gbabymogul
11-21-2007, 12:12 PM
My workflow was simple. We created qts proxies in redalert in a a mac. With QT pro we re-encoded them as photo jpeg files wich was fast. Maybe it took us half a day to recompress all files preserving the file name.

With the qt photo jpeg files we edited in vegas normally, and export and edl. After effects opens the EDL. With the edl in hand he manually replace the video files with dpx sequences exported in redalert. DPX take ages to render.

Color correcting in AE and done!
Obrigado ! :beer:

So you're doing finish in ae. I was hoping the 32 in Vegas would be good enough, but I suppose it's still 8. Otherwise, you need a good conform/finishing like those mentioned. For anything besides features, i can see your workflow as efficacious.

I dig vegas for the tandem edit and audio (not too mention real time). Whereas regular nle's are more specific (a lot of diff. departments) to each, edit, audio, sfx, cg, so that's why i'm chuffed to hear about a good workflow.:biggrin:

Look forward to your film.


obrigado.

Gbabymogul
11-22-2007, 02:28 AM
What about using vegas as an offline and then onlining with hd speedgrade ?

The money you save on vegas could go towards a program that reads, conforms (from edl) and has some cg apps that Lustre has (which i love). Also if you use their on set app (cheap) you could get a good jump on post.

I know it's a bit pricey at $13K, but it may be the solution for those of us that want a conform for features (manually doing one doesn't make sense for features) and still get pro results (although not high end). Native cg would be nice but if it can read the edl, and the right qt format from red, then it may be the dogs bollocks.

What do you think ? Is this barkers ?

Read that qt is 8, but maybe that wasn't with all the outputs that redcine now has ? Are all qt formats 8 ? There's gotta be a way to get 10 into speedgrade :wink: If it can read vegas edl and if it can get a format with 10 then I may have a great solution, for a lot less lettuce.

pm'd the ceo. yeah, speedgrade!!!

I want to finish 1080p so it could be perfect !!!hehe, indiestyle, baby !!!

Joe Carney
11-22-2007, 08:41 AM
What about using vegas as an offline and then onlining with hd speedgrade ?

The money you save on vegas could go towards a program that reads, conforms (from edl) and has some cg apps that Lustre has (which i love). Also if you use their on set app (cheap) you could get a good jump on post.

I know it's a bit pricey at $13K, but it may be the solution for those of us that want a conform for features (manually doing one doesn't make sense for features) and still get pro results (although not high end). Native cg would be nice but if it can read the edl, and the right qt format from red, then it may be the dogs bollocks.

What do you think ? Is this barkers ?

Read that qt is 8, but maybe that wasn't with all the outputs that redcine now has ? Are all qt formats 8 ? There's gotta be a way to get 10 into speedgrade :wink: If it can read vegas edl and if it can get a format with 10 then I may have a great solution, for a lot less lettuce.

pm'd the ceo. yeah, speedgrade!!!

I want to finish 1080p so it could be perfect !!!hehe, indiestyle, baby !!!


QT supports >8bit codecs. Sheer for QT is 10bit. The question is which apps support >8bit in QT. AE 7 and newer does, not sure about Vegas 8 though. That's why you'll probably see a lot of editing/fx work in AE instead of other apps on the PC, at least initially.
Vegas has great media management features built in, so once again, just being patient for > 8bit support for third party.
Now if someone could write a DPX and OpenEXR plug-in for Vegas.... I'd buy it.

btw, Satish from debugmode has updated FrameServer to work with Vegas 8 Pro.
This could be a short term solution to current problems.

http://debugmode.com

Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso
11-22-2007, 10:07 AM
Wow, i didnt know about speedgrade. Price seems very good. DOes it include hardware? Is there any other solution for real time grading in mac or pc at this price level?

Gbabymogul
11-22-2007, 12:17 PM
Zeke, thanks mate, going to check out that.
Assuming i edit with the photojpegs in vegas, then the real question is a high quality online finishing codec from redcine that speedgrade can read, conform, and then cg output to (1080 or 2K!) dpx if you want. Whether its 8 or 10 in vegas isn't as important, as your outputting to speedgrade from your source footy. mostly i need to know if speedgrade will read a vegas edl (and thus conform from the pull list) and what codec from redcine it can use for final 1080p finishing, cg, mix etc...

Right now you can use qt proxies, go to redcine, render dpx's or aja uncompressed qt's and then replace the proxies in the reels browser, but that is sort of a manual conform, when i'd prefer to take my edl and conform automatically.

Speedgrade is planning on 32 float (YcRcb) rendering capability and allow full depth support, so these guys are going to provide a great finishing solution for those of us with reds at a veeery cool price :biggrin:
just have to find out those questions .
:beer:

Joe Carney
11-23-2007, 09:12 AM
Zeke, thanks mate, going to check out that.
Assuming i edit with the photojpegs in vegas, then the real question is a high quality online finishing codec from redcine that speedgrade can read, conform, and then cg output to (1080 or 2K!) dpx if you want. Whether its 8 or 10 in vegas isn't as important, as your outputting to speedgrade from your source footy. mostly i need to know if speedgrade will read a vegas edl (and thus conform from the pull list) and what codec from redcine it can use for final 1080p finishing, cg, mix etc...

Right now you can use qt proxies, go to redcine, render dpx's or aja uncompressed qt's and then replace the proxies in the reels browser, but that is sort of a manual conform, when i'd prefer to take my edl and conform automatically.

Speedgrade is planning on 32 float (YcRcb) rendering capability and allow full depth support, so these guys are going to provide a great finishing solution for those of us with reds at a veeery cool price :biggrin:
just have to find out those questions .
:beer:


You might want to check out Sheer from bitjazz.com. He has a lossless compression QT codec that can convert from a variety of formats. Plus it's less than 200.00 USD, but it needs a lot of I/O compared to RED or other wavelet codecs. Sheer if fully supported in AE on windows and FCP on a mac.
He's also been working on a directshow (avi) version for quite some time, but no release date yet.

When I actually install Vegas 8, I plan on downloading the free trial and seeing if Vegas sees it as 10bit.

Gbabymogul
11-23-2007, 02:46 PM
He's also been working on a directshow (avi) version for quite some time, but no release date yet.

When I actually install Vegas 8, I plan on downloading the free trial and seeing if Vegas sees it as 10bit. Yup, could be good.

How does it deal with metadata ?

I'd be really interested to see how it plays with Vegas and the kind of results you get...

The 32 floating YcBr that speedgrade is working on is redcode, so ouputting from redcine that format and conforming and cg would get you a very high end solution for a lot less $ (if you don't need 2K/4K editing and monitoring). And if you wanted to, you could go film out from speedgrade pretty easily.

Lut preview on set, stills to editorial and premarketing, production and post story board use to conform and cg of 32 redcode ... this would be perfect for personal indies to a financed flick. Just a few questions to answer.

I'd still like anyone to post what their workflow is or want for Vegas. More choices = custom quality.

:biggrin:

:beer:

SalaTar
11-23-2007, 03:02 PM
You do realize??? CineForm works actively with said companies?

donatello b
11-23-2007, 04:02 PM
" Sheer from bitjazz.com"

i have sheer - last time i tried it was in Vegas 7 and it crashed - ( haven't tried it in V8 ) ... but even if it didn't crash Vegas would ony be able to output 8 bit with sheer ... same with microcosm's 16bit codec - Vegas can only output 2k 8 bit using it - AE can output 16 bit per channel using microcosm codec ... FCP can playback sheer files in RT ...
i'm not getting 10 bit using cineform codec in V8 ...

Joe Carney
11-25-2007, 07:31 AM
" Sheer from bitjazz.com"

i have sheer - last time i tried it was in Vegas 7 and it crashed - ( haven't tried it in V8 ) ... but even if it didn't crash Vegas would ony be able to output 8 bit with sheer ... same with microcosm's 16bit codec - Vegas can only output 2k 8 bit using it - AE can output 16 bit per channel using microcosm codec ... FCP can playback sheer files in RT ...
i'm not getting 10 bit using cineform codec in V8 ...

David said 10bit cineform is not yet supported in Vegas 8. Don't know about sheer yet. Vegas 8 supports directshow codecs now, so in theory, >8bit via directshow should work.

GlennChan
11-25-2007, 12:51 PM
It supports directshow now???

Joe Carney
11-27-2007, 10:15 AM
I thought it did, are you saying it doesn't?

more..
I just called sony support and they don't support directshow. Don't know where I got that from.
So.. it's still 8bit only as far as external codecs go. Which means I wasted money on an upgrade.
My Bad, I should have understood their "codecs" supported information better.

Maybe I can get my money back. If not, Ces't la vie.

Now, I have to determine if I'm moving to Adobe or FCP. I'm leaning toward Adobe.

Since I have new uninstalled Vegas 8 and AcidPro 6, I'll see what I can get on Ebay.

Note...I can still use Vegas 7/SoundForge 8 for surround mixing and basic hdv editing.