EPIC-M 'Backup-Body' Rental

[michael zaletel]

Are there currently any rental houses or EPIC-M owners out there willing to rent an EPIC-M body by itself at 1/2 the full package rate assuming the body would be on set for emergency backup purposes only and not used otherwise. (Perhaps full rate would kick-in if body needs to be used for any reason).

Please advise if you know.

Thanks,

-michael zaletel

[Greg M]

Michael,
Why would it matter if you used the camera or left it in a case, the camera is still not available to the rental house. Therefor renting at half price makes no sense...its not like the act of using the camera decreases its life, there are no moving parts.

[Steve Das]

...its not like the act of using the camera decreases its life, there are no moving parts.

yes...it's not like miles on a car.

[Meryem Ersoz]

Won't most rental houses replace non-functioning gear with gear that is working? Isn't access to support kiind of the point of paying rental house prices?

(which is sort of like paying an extra 20%-30% for that same peace of mind versus paying a 50% back-up fee to a single camera owner...)

[Greg M]

Won't most rental houses replace non-functioning gear with gear that is working? Isn't access to support kiind of the point of paying rental house prices?

(which is sort of like paying an extra 20%-30% for that same peace of mind versus paying a 50% back-up fee to a single camera owner...)

sadly, this point is lost today....we are constantly asked to match a quote from an owner that lowballs his camera. Then after we decline the job and try to explain the value of our 24/7 support, expertise, etc, etc...99% of the time we get a call with a plea for help, even though we didnt supply the camera. Never fails.

The notion of a back-up body is nonsense...what you really need is to rent from a company that stands behind you and be willing to pay for that service. You get what you pay for. <<rant off>>

[michael zaletel]

Michael,
Why would it matter if you used the camera or left it in a case, the camera is still not available to the rental house. Therefor renting at half price makes no sense...its not like the act of using the camera decreases its life, there are no moving parts.

Hi Greg:

I would rent my EPIC-M to you for on-set backup at half-price.

If Digital FX only has 2 EPIC-M's, how can you promise the support you claim to give on a 2-camera job if you don't have a backup body on-set or readily available. EPIC-M's aren't exactly easy to come by in an emergency situation. You can't put a RED One on an Atom™ in the case of a body failure.

I just figured if I'd be willing to do it, others might be willing to as well. The reason I would do it is because chances are, my EPIC-M body would be locked safely in my case, untouched and unused and I would still receive rental income with minimal support or risk. If the renter did need to break the seal, they would pay full price for the full rental period and everyone would win.

-michael zaletel

[F/VESCO]

If you rent a car and keep it parked in the garage will Hertz give you a 1/2 rate?

[michael zaletel]

If you rent a car and keep it parked in the garage will Hertz give you a 1/2 rate?

I would rent my EPIC-M at 1/2 rate to you if you kept it in the case. I wouldn't do that for everyone of course, but for friends and family and trusted RedUsers, sure. Why not?

A 'backup body' rental is a much simpler business transaction, requires far less work on the front and back end and far less support and risk during the rental than a full EPIC-M package rental. Again, I just figured if I'd be willing to do it, others might as well.

I just get a little concerned about taking on the huge responsibility of shoot that can afford an EPIC-M package without having a backup body available. Just because a project can afford an EPIC-M package, doesn't mean it can afford 2 full packages in case a backup is needed.

Once I get my EPIC-X, this won't be a problem but for now, I like to explore options. If I have to add the full cost of a full-package to my project estimates, I'll be to high. Some say this is the reason for rental houses (because you get the support and backup camera if something goes wrong) but most rental houses right now don't have enough EPIC-M's to really follow through on that promise at any given time.

Thoughts?

-michael zaletel

[Greg M]

Sorry Michael,
Dont take it personally, its just that I see things differently. I dont and wont rent my camera for half price, especially an M that is so hard to come by and cost in excess of $60k. A Red One is a perfect "back-up" for an Epic, its the same sensor.
Regrading the notion that you should rent a back-up in the first place is due to some stupid rumor back when the Red One first started shipping and people claimed they failed. I have been renting Red bodies longer than 99% of the people on this forum and I have never had a Red fail that was not due to operator error. And in the course of my thousands of rentals Ive never had a client that lost footage or was left without a camera. NEVER.

Its time to put this rumor to rest. A Red camera does not need a backup, just because its a Red camera. Its odd that I never had a request for a back-up Sony or a back-up Arri 435. Why is it that we need a back up Epic. The camera is rock solid.

And regardless of why...you shouldnt be renting it for half price. Thats my rant for the day.

BTW- From my experience, a "back-up" body means the B camera. (I realize thats not your intent, its just what I see from typical rentals). I love the renter that needs a "Back-up" body, yet also orders a "back-up" AKS package too. As if I was born yesterday.

[Arnaud Paris]

Funny discussion, I guess you haven't counted in yet the extra money you'd have to pay for the guy that will be there from the rental house to check whether you're using the camera or not ;)

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Funny discussion, I guess you haven't counted in yet the extra money you'd have to pay for the guy that will be there from the rental house to check whether you're using the camera or not ;)

I assume you can see the hours of usage on the Epic, just as with the Red One, so no need for that ;-)

[michael zaletel]

Sorry Michael,
Dont take it personally, its just that I see things differently. I dont and wont rent my camera for half price, especially an M that is so hard to come by and cost in excess of $60k. A Red One is a perfect "back-up" for an Epic, its the same sensor.
Regrading the notion that you should rent a back-up in the first place is due to some stupid rumor back when the Red One first started shipping and people claimed they failed.

Hi Greg,

I don't take it personally. That's what this forum is for. That doesn't mean I agree with your arguments.

1. A Red One is NOT a 'perfect' back-up for an EPIC. Doesn't fit the new 3D rigs, it doesn't do 300 fps 2K, 120 fps 5k or HDRx and it doesn't do 5K.
2. The notion of a back-up is just good business in situations where the alternatives are unacceptable. There are lots of pieces of equipment I have NEVER had fail that I would still want to have a backup for if the shoot could not continue without it.
3. The possibility of operator error or accident is the reason why a backup is a good idea. If something can go wrong, it will.
4. A Red Camera only needs a backup if not having a backup would be unacceptably expensive. Like 50 paid crew standing around.
5. Just because you've never been asked to backup a Sony or Arri 435 doesn't mean none of your clients ever had one fail or have an accident during an expensive shoot.
6. If you get an inquiry for a 3D shoot and you only have 2 EPIC-M's free (others already rented out), wouldn't you feel a lot more secure if you had a source for a backup if anything went wrong of if an operator made a mistake?

I'm not saying I am going to rent my EPIC-M package for 1/2 price to the public. I am saying that I would be wiling to rent my EPIC-M body to you and other EPIC-M owners as an on-set, unused backup for 1/2 the price of a full package and that if you have to use it for any reason, you would pay full package price for the body only.

Sincerely,

Michael Zaletel

[Greg M]

When I say "back-up" I meant "I need a backup for half price backup"

Of course we rent multiple bodies all the time. Most productions rent 2-6 bodies, for that matter I have at least two bodies on every commercial shoot. The cost of the extra bodies is justified in the time savings when reconfiguring handheld to studio or jib, zoom body and prime body, etc. We generally have a body just for the Optimo, one for primes and one for steadicam.

My rant is strictly about the notion of a backup that sits in a case unused (for half price). This is not realistic on a set, every camera body is used to some extent or another.

[michael zaletel]

Boy am I glad I bought an EPIC-M and am also on the EPIC-X Stage 2 early list!

I had no idea how hard or expensive it would be to get a 2nd EPIC for backup if I needed one. :)

-michael zaletel

[Detlev Eller]

... well, half price or not ... i guess, the real question is "how much to have it ...." ....

Just for the sake of this discussion -
depending on the circumstances, i would agree to a backup deal ... :-)


... which would probably not fit "mathematically" with half of what others charge ...
it is just a deal.

;-)


Point in case for Michael,
since the camera would not be used, there is less risk involved ...

... and i guess more important, it is good collaborative attitude to help out a fellow M enthusiast, anyway ....

... which would be the real motivation ....

:-)

[Greg M]

sorry to derail your thread...hope you find what you need.

[Detlev Eller]

... well, there is always risk .... people bumping into each other, electric hazards, water, food, the baby falling on the floor ... whatever ... come on guys .... stuff can happen .... !
depending on the shoot, timeframe and uniqueness of the production situation as well as the budgetary means, i think it is very wise to work with backup systems .... for the mission critical parts ...

... that is, if the outcome matters.

[sergio arguello]

these are IMHO tricks of the producer trade...backup/1/2 price? equipment out is equipment out...If a production feels the need to have backup anything, be it camera, computers, its usually due to location and the complexity to replace the item in a timely fashion as to not lose valuable shoot time and thus passed on to client or written into
that line in the budget. Now the only time i've found this not to be the case is on low-budget projects, and if this is the case IMHO low-budget is not ready for M, and should be
shooting MX.


Are there currently any rental houses or EPIC-M owners out there willing to rent an EPIC-M body by itself at 1/2 the full package rate assuming the body would be on set for emergency backup purposes only and not used otherwise. (Perhaps full rate would kick-in if body needs to be used for any reason).

Please advise if you know.

Thanks,

-michael zaletel

[michael zaletel]

sorry to derail your thread...hope you find what you need.

That's okay Greg. Thanks.

-michael

[Meryem Ersoz]

I would rent my EPIC-M at 1/2 rate to you if you kept it in the case. I wouldn't do that for everyone of course, but for friends and family and trusted RedUsers, sure. Why not?

among owner-operators where I live, we will occasionally back each others' camera rentals, in trade, to support each other as owner-operators in the rental market - because there is no local rental house that carries an inventory of RED cameras here. I imagine there's quite a few REDs in Arizona as well - or surrounding states. an arrangement such as this seems to make the most sense. creating swap arrangements is sometimes the only way to get everything you need locally, in our smaller markets....and cheaper than what you were originally asking.

although I guess that M cameras are still scarce enough that it is hard to make these kinds of arrangements.

[Tim Whitcomb]

These are different times than the early days iof the RED ONE and M-X upgrades. Owner operators who think they are going to pay for their cameras are in for a major lesson. There are also many quality alternative cameras taking revenue.. namely Arri Alexa.

I have to agree with Greg on this one Michael.. As innoucuous as your idea may seem. I think you are devaluing the EPIC-M with posts like this and that is a risky (frustrating) proposition to those of us who
do this for a living... not a hobby. Especially, given your mainly a software developer :) (glad the referral worked out btw! I look forward to the game!)

But if you indeed only meant this for friends and family and trusted Redusers... perhaps a PM would be have been a better idea? Because like Greg, if people want a back up - we charge full price because its off the market.

cheers!

[Willis Chung]

I think you are devaluing the EPIC-M with posts like this

+1

Understand where the host is coming from to get his Epic-M out as much as possible without the act of being greedy, but that's one of many reasons why the market for the R1(MX) became so saturated. Therefore, selling your camera short, doing what rental houses would NEVER do, is what defines you as "Greedy" and is one of the bigger reasons how the $60k camera gets devalued... - for the sake everybody doing it for a living whether it's private or rental house, don't do it!

[Mike Weber]

I guess the unasked question is: How much is a "full price" EPIC rental?

[michael zaletel]

I have to agree with Greg on this one Michael.. As innoucuous as your idea may seem. I think you are devaluing the EPIC-M with posts like this and that is a risky (frustrating) proposition to those of us who
do this for a living... not a hobby. Especially, given your mainly a software developer :) (glad the referral worked out btw! I look forward to the game!)

Hi Tim,

This would be for the next installment of our i4vegas.tv project. Not really a hobby, at least not financially. :)

I just don't want to have location agreements, permits, cast and crew in place in Vegas while live streaming to a large Internet audience without a backup M body on call. I may have to pay full package price for such a backup to my M if my X doesn't show before July.

Thanks for the referral. This is why I love RedUser.

-michael zaletel

[Detlev Eller]

Value and Devalue ...

I think it is up to the EPIC-M owners, to keep the prices reasonable .... up, that is.

;-)

The folks running after cheap hardware package deals and compete on price are in a different pond, than the ones offering a particular production quality and aesthetics and are competing on value.

I am on the stand, that the EPIC as a tool offers far more possibilities than any so called "competing" tool.
In my eyes, there is none.

If price is the only differentiator, fear of loss of business is natural.
In top end quality, price does not matter (so much) ...


One will eventually suffer. the other blossom. But not all can play both games and some choose the easy route.

Anyhow, i think it has been a reasonable question of Michael to ask, especially on our community page ...

[Harcharan Singh]

Hi,

In 'current' scenario where EPIC-M is like gold sand , I think 1/2 price for backup body does not arise..ie if anyone has a backupbody at all. I think it should be charged 'premium' or atleast the full 100% charge for the backup body because if any of the working units fail this body will save the $$$$ you have spent on the shoot.

Maybe after 6 months when there are more EPIC-M's or EPIC-X's in market then due to supply demand economics the 50% charge for backup body may hold good and it will also depend on other factors such as number of days , current projects in hand , availability of EPIC's in the area it is required.

Harcharan