Curious Case of Benjamin Buttons

[Greg M]

rumors rumors rumors

[M Most]

Principal photography took place in New Orleans this summer on 35mm, but they just came back in town recently to shoot retakes and brought in two RED ONES from LA.

"Benjamin Button" was primarily shot on the Thomson Viper, not film. Same basic methodology as "Zodiac." David Fincher has been interested in digital cinema for some time, so I'm not at all surprised to see him try Red.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Exciting to see Claudio on the Red if that is true - he was by Offhollywood back in September, and he has had other demonstrations from Team Red. Can anyone confirm that this info is correct?

[Robert Sanders]

Yup, Benjamin Buttons is another big Viper show.

I have to say that I think Michael Mann's use of HD actually hurt the cause. After Collateral and Miami Vice I was amazed anyone would shoot with the Viper ever again.

But it wasn't until I saw Zodiac that I realized what the Viper could actually do. I thought Zodiac looked fantastic.

And then it become clear that Mann actually "likes" the bottom-end of the Viper, he likes that nasty noise floor and intentionally shot those films like that. For a while I just thought he was stressing the cameras to the limits. Now I realize he was doing it intentionally, which kinda baffles me.

[I Bloom]

And then it become clear that Mann actually "likes" the bottom-end of the Viper, he likes that nasty noise floor and intentionally shot those films like that. For a while I just thought he was stressing the cameras to the limits. Now I realize he was doing it intentionally, which kinda baffles me.

Miami vice is one of the first movies I've seen with a lot of night exteriors, with backgrounds lit with existing light. Yeah the noise is gross, but there are sync shots where you can see an exposure off of streetlights reflecting off the clouds. That puts you into the feeling of really being there at night. It's a trade off but I can't wait to do more of this on RED.

IBloom

[Greg M]

"Benjamin Button" was primarily shot on the Thomson Viper, not film. Same basic methodology as "Zodiac." David Fincher has been interested in digital cinema for some time, so I'm not at all surprised to see him try Red.


sorry, typo...you are correct.

[Greg M]

I can confirm that this is simply a rumor

[Robert Sanders]

I'd love to hear what Fincher and Claudio Miranda have to say about RED.

[Seth Larney]

This is big news ..

Awesome :)

[Jacob_Ross]

but there are sync shots where you can see an exposure off of streetlights reflecting off the clouds. That puts you into the feeling of really being there at night. It's a trade off but I can't wait to do more of this on RED.

IBloom

I agree. A lot of folks hated Miami Vice's look but I thought it was great.... really gritty but glossy and synthetic at the same time, suits Miami well

[brandon herman]

i wasn't crazy about the super-fuzzy video noise bits; they kind of took me out of the movie.

But the film looked awesome in other scenes...and I liked how it felt like an episode of Cops when the Miami Vice squad attacks the trailer home.

And Michael Mann gets a lot of energy out of the scene when he can move quickly and not light everything to death.


"Benjamin Button" is going to be incredible. Fincher is the man.

[Poe]

I agree, I loved the look of "Miami Vice", including the grain. The cinematography strongly evoked images we were so used to seeing ourselves in daily life - on reality TV, news and also with our own home cameras.

Seeing that iconic "COPS" look, the very naturalistic lighting and colors and - as another poster pointed out - seeing streetlights reflecting off the clouds and that tangible atmosphere of heat and humidity psychologically sold the movie for me completely.

For some members of the public and certainly for many filmmakers who demand only clean, pristine images, i can certainly agree Michael Mann's visual aesthetic may have given them the talisman to ward off HD and its "evils", but I think for some people it gave a fleeting, albeit grainy, glimpse of where movies WILL definitely go in the future and made our hearts skip a beat or three.

Mann can keep on pushing the pixels as far as I'm concerned. :)

[claudio]

Someone pointed me to this blog... I am the cinematographer on Benjamin Button and we did NOT use the RED on this movie. Where did you get your confirmation? We did switch for one scene to F23. Mainly we shot Viper, some film and a little F23. Both digital cameras were shot 4:4:4 filmstream onto S2 hard drives. I did look at some early tests of the Red camera, but it was not ready.

Claudio

[Greg M]

Hi Claudio,
where you back in New Orleans a few weeks ago?

[Brandon Fraley]

-just gotta step in and say I'm a big fan, Claudio (if you are him)-

...continue :)

-As a side note, when I was at RPM post for the RED training, a guy there told me that a few weeks earlier, Fincher was in there screening room with Jim, looking at RED stuff, and was heard saying "if only the cameras were available earlier..."

doesn't mean anything, just interesting

[claudio]

I was in New Orleans. We finally finished shooting the movie. 160 days. I have been with this for over a year.

I am feeling there are a lot of false statements. All the test footage I have seen on the RED camera was not up to par. All the latitude tests I have seen have come up short (maybe this is part of the compression). I have contacted RED and they have not responded to tests I want to facilitate. I have seen the camera and I am impressed with the camera for the price. I do not want to give the impression that I am from any camp. Viper has its own issues. F23 has some of its own as well. I love the RED's size, 35mm lens mount, 4K and simple design. I am not sure about the compression. At 2K on the Viper every frame is approx 8meg (based on images I have pulled) x 24 = 192 meg per sec. That same information at 4K is 768meg per sec. Now compress that and fit it on a flash cards does not seem correct. I would love to test the camera with a dual link adapter to truly test the camera then run that test against their compression and see what I am loosing.

But what I want to get to the bottom is. Who is spreading these rumors? Who is confirming RED on Benjamin Button?

I will contact Fincher and ask about what he saw. Fincher and I were shooting together between Nov 5-17 and did not mention Red. If David is gloating about the RED I am sure I would of heard. I do know he saw some footage a couple of months ago, but the report was not favorable.

[Joe Carney]

Claudio, when was the last time you looked at RED footage? The compression is wavelet based, so it's common for data rates to be less than usual.

[Anders Holck]

Bummer, would have been great news though. Fincher approved :-)

Cant wait to see Benjamin Button.

Are you attached to Rendevous?

[Greg M]

Claudio,
I sent you an email. I started the thread based on a report from a crew member who was on location. He stated that two Reds were shipped to New Orleans recently. He never actually said the cameras were used only that they arrived from LA. He would have no reason to make up this story, but I will get to the bottom of it.

For now I'll ask moderators to delete this thread as it appears this is false info. I apologize for posting the info w/o first hand knowledge.

[RCFisher]

Claudio you also have to remember the data rates you are quoting are for uncompressed 4.4.4 images. The compressed images from the Red are Raw images from the sensor - compressed. Much like images from a DSLR. My Nikon D200 has a compressed setting for the Raw images that's 1/3 of the data from the sensor uncompressed and that's still less than the 30MB of the uncompressed tiffs. Also you can't use the images without deBayering the frames into DPX (uncompressed) files or whatever you need. The images from the Viper are regular uncompressed images that can then be color corrected then used. The best way to think of the data from the Red is the raw data is the digital negative which has to be processed into prints to use in the post production pipeline.

[Joel Kaye]

If David is gloating about the RED I am sure I would of heard. I do know he saw some footage a couple of months ago, but the report was not favorable.

I wonder if part of this is what is being addressed with the upgrades. I'm pretty curious what his issues were. All I know is RED seems to be putting out the best images in it's class. Perhaps it can't compete with a million dollar system. Fair enough.

[claudio]

The last time I saw the camera was a 2 months ago. I some raw 4k stills a month ago and did not see much range in the negative. I do know the compression is wavelet based. I just worry that we are throwing too much info away. What is the meg per sec of RED at 4K?

I have not been asked to work on Rendevous. As far as I know it has not been green lit. We are working together on a commercial later next month.

What is the quote about paying the grip $100? Does not seem funny.

[RCFisher]

Yeah that comment isn't funny.

A good grip is worth his weight in unobtanium!

I think the Data Rate is around 40MB/sec in 4K, these are RAW frames not uncompressed RGB frames.

[Dominic Cochran]

What is the quote about paying the grip $100? Does not seem funny.


No, him quoting it WAS funny, it's the original post that isn't... the guy (JohnathanLB) he's quoting is the joke!

But "confirming" false information is NOT funny, and doesn't do anything to help Red succeed... might want to wait to ACTUALLY confirm next time before pulling the trigger on posting.

[Greg M]

What is the quote about paying the grip $100? Does not seem funny.

I guess you had to be there. This board is full of characters, and the quote is from one who claims I am retarded because I pay my crew more than $100/day. I couldnt take his bs any more so I added one of his quotes to my sig...he is full of gems.
I guess in hind site it looks like I support that comment...I obviously dont.

[Dominic Cochran]

Also, good to see you moving up Claudio... love your work as a gaffer... Welcome to the site.

[Dominic Cochran]

Hey DfX... don't change the sig! That thread was hilarious! :-)

In a kind of scary way of course...

[Greg M]

No, him quoting it WAS funny, it's the original post that isn't... the guy (JohnathanLB) he's quoting is the joke!

But "confirming" false information is NOT funny, and doesn't do anything to help Red succeed... might want to wait to ACTUALLY confirm next time before pulling the trigger on posting.

Well, I have apologized to Claudio privately. I have also asked the moderator to delete the thread. I will deal with my source "privately" as well.

[Greg M]

Hey DfX... don't change the sig! That thread was hilarious! :-)

In a kind of scary way of course...

I think it is being read the wrong way by those that are not familiar w/ the source

[Jay A. Kelley]

Don't be too hard on him Digital, while I am guessing he told you the cameras were on set, it was YOUR call to spread the rumor (yep, it's a rumor, you shared something you did not see or confirm).

That guy only told you.. YOU told an entire formum.. I think the larger fault rests on your shoulders. Don't nail him for getting info wrong, just fix it by never doing it again.

For the record.. I am NOT smacking on you.. You've been a very cool guy on these threads, and I know from your earlier posts I am not telling you anything you don't already know.. Nevertheless....

You got hosed on this one.

:)

Jay

[RCFisher]

Maybe we should start a new thread on grips.

Many years ago I had this argument with my business partner who thought I was paying grips too much money but most of the grips I used were great. One of the guys, I used as often as I could book him, I rarely had to ask for anything because he was already doing it by the time I got around to pointing out the problem. I dumped that partner and that grip has been a friend ever since, going on 28 years.

[Greg M]

thanks Jay

[Dominic Cochran]

I think it is being read the wrong way by those that are not familiar w/ the source

Oh well, I suppose so... I guess the hilarity can't last forever... :-)

Thanks for hooking me up with your friend by the way, if I can convince the partners, it's looking good!

[Jay A. Kelley]

There are times when people can be cheap and hire people that call themselves grips for little or no money.

Then there comes that day when you want to shoot something with more than just standard coverage.. You actually want to "make" a movie. Suddenly you have more setups per day, but not more days.

At this point the grips on your set are going to make you or break you. They will make the difference between 8 setups per day, vs 15 to 25 setups per day.

How much will you pay then?

:)

I'd pay a LOT

Jay

[Brandon Fraley]

no offense intended of course, but we don't have any evidence that this is indeed Claudio Miranda.

I mean, we've seen trolls do similar things before. I would probably actually believe D-Fx's source before the guy who just grabbed the handle "Claudio" and tells everyone on the board that Fincher doesn't like the camera.

Again, no ill will intended to the actual Claudio, here or not. Just sayin...

[Evin Grant]

I'd bet money it's Claudio, it's just the right syntax and knowledge base.

Anyway, I'd like to keep the thread open, it has some good info and Claudio's input is valuable. Greg, why don't you just edit your initial post to be more in line with the current facts.

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm sure it's Claudio, he also posts now and then on Cinematography.Com. Besides, there is nothing suspicious about the post.

But then, how do you really know that I'm M. David Mullen, ASC?

[Brandon Fraley]

But then, how do you really know that I'm M. David Mullen, ASC?

good GOD!

lol, well, if "David" says that it's "Claudio", then I'm "Brandon" :)

done and done

[claudio]

Claudio you also have to remember the data rates you are quoting are for uncompressed 4.4.4 images. The compressed images from the Red are Raw images from the sensor - compressed. Much like images from a DSLR. My Nikon D200 has a compressed setting for the Raw images that's 1/3 of the data from the sensor uncompressed and that's still less than the 30MB of the uncompressed tiffs. Also you can't use the images without deBayering the frames into DPX (uncompressed) files or whatever you need. The images from the Viper are regular uncompressed images that can then be color corrected then used. The best way to think of the data from the Red is the raw data is the digital negative which has to be processed into prints to use in the post production pipeline.

I graded the dpx files on the movie everyday. The files the Viper and F23 spits out are dpx files. We are recording to S2 hard drives. Everyday I get selected frames to grade. These have been my dailies for the last year. I have graded F23 and Viper and I am very familiar with their dynamic range. I have seen other peoples RED tests. Including through the pipeline. And I have not seen a good dynamic range. I ask the operator to show me what is in the blacks and all i find is nothing. It feels like a thin negative. I did not like what I saw. But to be fair, I do need to do my own tests.

I did test the 4K Dalsa before we did CCBB. Each frame was 16MB (Raw native 16bit Bayer Pattern) x 24fps = 400MB/sec. The images were beautiful, but we had some unresolved issues before shooting. So now I hear that the RED camera is running 40MB/sec for the same resolution. I know the wavelet compression is good, I am just not sure it is that good. I feel what I have seen is over compression and what I want to test is find a way that I can record more throughput to a Hard Disk recorder via a dual link interface or fiber optic.

Also if you run your D200 camera in full RAW mode at 24 fps (if it was possible) would you not fill your card in less that a minute? My camera raw is 9MB (4064x2702) x 24 fps = 216MB/sec 12.960GB/min.

To be fair we are working with a very expensive system and the RED system would be 1/10 the cost of what we are using.

I am looking forward to future tests with the RED. There are many things I do love about this camera.

[Anders Holck]

Well no matter what, it sure would be very interesting to see a test between the Viper/s.two and the RED. Especially with a DP like you.

[Finner]

Hi Greg

It's to bad you got poor information.

By the way is that a new website you have Greg? It looks good.

[M Most]

The files the Viper and F23 spits out are dpx files. We are recording to S2 hard drives.

I'm not nitpicking, but the Viper and the F23 output video streams - in your case, 4:4:4, RGB dual link video. The S.two takes these streams and writes them to a disk array as a DPX file sequence. I just don't want people to be mislead and think that the cameras themselves are file based and output file sequences when that is not the case.

Claudio, I think perhaps you are experiencing something very similar to what I did prior to last NAB. I went in believing that compression at the beginning of the storage/processing chain was unacceptable, and that numbers don't lie. What I found myself thinking after seeing a number of tests from both Red and Cineform (via the Silicon Imaging camera) was that perhaps I was overstating the issue, and that given a higher original image resolution and properly done compression it was possible to achieve what I did not think possible, and with some serious workflow advantages to boot. The real lesson I took away from that show - and I wasn't alone in this - was that numbers sometimes do lie, and that the result is what matters, not what it took to get there. Certainly your eyes don't lie, and any dynamic range issues are things that should concern you, but I wouldn't look at the numbers - particularly regarding compression ratios - and draw conclusions directly from that. Particularly in the case of what Red is doing. Wavelet compression from a 4K Bayer source, done on the Raw data prior to debayering is very different than DCT, JPEG, or MPEG compression done on RGB image sources.

Of course, as with the Dalsa, the Silicon Imaging, or any digital still camera, the Red images require a full quality debayer pass to really yield the best results. And that is not quick - and many of the images already made available were not processed that way. Debayering artifacts are often mistaken for compression artifacts, even though they're not really part of the captured image and not the result of any compression - and are eliminated with a properly done, full debayer. So make sure you're comparing apples to apples, and that those apples are fully ripe.

[Graeme Nattress]

Research has shown that if you're going to compress a digital image, the "best" place to apply the most compression is as near to the start as you can. At that point, least has been done to the image that can cause the compression to be less efficient.

Graeme

[Ruairi Robinson]

Research has shown that if you're going to compress a digital image, the "best" place to apply the most compression is as near to the start as you can. At that point, least has been done to the image that can cause the compression to be less efficient.

Graeme

huh?

exactly what research are you referring to? it certainly goes against my experiences, and what I'd assumed would be common sense, and common practice, at least in my experience.

Why would compression become less efficient if "work" has been done to it?

(like... say... noise reduction, for example...)

R.

[claudio]

I'm not nitpicking, but the Viper and the F23 output video streams - in your case, 4:4:4, RGB dual link video. .

You are correct. I miswrote. I should have said the system. But what I am trying to get to the heart of the matter is why I am unimpressed with the images i have been presented. Maybe the presentation was not up to par. For me it seems the compression is a place to look. I really do not care about the math as much as the result.

I do need to reevaluate the RED camera. There has been many updates. Since my posting on this site, it looks like I am getting my tests. I am very open and looking forward to these tests. After these tests, I will have a more concrete opinion about the camera.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Hi claudio

I sure see nothing wrong with those Blacks :
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/152_1196012584.jpg

Here is the link to the original uncorected 4k picture:
http://digitalfx.tv/clients/red/offhollywood/suspicion_03.tiff

But I'd like to know what someone of your experience would be looking for in those black.

Yours

Emmanuel

[Graeme Nattress]

Yes, NR can make an image more compressable. What the research was, and I think I heard about it from a BBC engineering contact, was that doing the heaviest compression at the end, for delivery, was, theoretically, the worse place to apply it. Applying strong compression at the head, with the cleanest signal, was preferential. Of course, this is a "general" thing, and some post production can make an image more compressable, whereas a lot of things can make it worse.

We're in a slightly different game as we're dealing with RAW sensor information, and I think we have shown that a reasonable amount of compression at the head of the chain can be done very well.

Graeme

[Ruairi Robinson]

Yes, NR can make an image more compressable. What the research was, and I think I heard about it from a BBC engineering contact, was that doing the heaviest compression at the end, for delivery, was, theoretically, the worse place to apply it. Applying strong compression at the head, with the cleanest signal, was preferential. Of course, this is a "general" thing, and some post production can make an image more compressable, whereas a lot of things can make it worse.

We're in a slightly different game as we're dealing with RAW sensor information, and I think we have shown that a reasonable amount of compression at the head of the chain can be done very well.

Graeme

Well, it's pretty easy to test this. I knocked up a grad in photoshop in 16 bit colour, and did an extreme curves colour correction before and after saving as REALLY heavily compressed (quality 1) jpg.

here's the uncorrected grad
http://www.ruairirobinson.com/red/16bit_grad.tif
and the curve I'm using: http://www.ruairirobinson.com/red/colour_correction.acv

and the colour correction done in 16 bits
http://www.ruairirobinson.com/red/16bit_cc_grad.tif

here's the colour correction done AFTER compressing in jpg quality 1
http://www.ruairirobinson.com/red/grad_compressionfirst_ccafter.jpg

and the correction done BEFORE saving as jpg quality 1.
http://www.ruairirobinson.com/red/grad_ccfirst_compressionafter.jpg

As you can clearly see, the version with the correction done after compression is way way crappier looking.

Obviously this is an extreme example, but it the point remains. Compression is MUCH better at the very end of the chain if you want to retain image quality.

R.

[claudio]

Hi claudio

I sure see nothing wrong with those Blacks :

But I'd like to know what someone of your experience would be looking for in those blacks.

It is not about blacks hitting zero. A jpeg does a good job with that. The files I get from the Viper/F23 look pretty flat so the image is very malleable. The more dynamic range I have, the more chances I have of bringing down a blown out sky or lifting something out of the blacks.

I did open your file. I discovered no new information in the blacks.

Here is an example:

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/heinekenttl.html

[P Andersson]

great work

[Joel Kaye]

here's the colour correction done AFTER compressing in jpg quality 1


You're making a pretty theoretical argument here.

The proper way to test something like this is compare an uncompressed frame from RED with a frame compressed by RedCode Raw and then uncompressed again.

If you want to capture uncompressed RED footage it'll be coming when that capture solution is added to the camera. Until then the image is going to get compressed and it's either going to be good enough for you or not.

What I do know is I've seen at least one compositer who has a lot of experience with film posting that the keys he got out of the RED footage he tested were the best keys he'd ever seen. Better than film. Clearly many more people will continue to test that.

[Evin Grant]

Here is a DPX file that is about as full range as I can find. It will appear very flat, it has almost no correction applied, only a small bump in brightness and little bit of highlight retention.
http://www.redninjas.net/SamPullUp.jpg
Ctrl Click to download. (32MB)
http://www.redninjas.net/SamPullUp.dpx

[RCFisher]

I think what Claudio needs is several frames directly from the camera, Raw. And let him have at it with RedCine. The frames should have extremes, in both over and underexposure, as well as some flat images. That way he can discover what lies within much like converting a Raw image from a still camera. Raw files have a ton of dynamic range that converted images almost never have.

Also when I got my D200 a while ago I did tests on both compressed and uncompressed Raw files and discovered that the compressed Raw files looked almost the same as the uncompressed Raw files after conversion, debayering. I shot a lot of subjects over a week or so since I started a 2 month QTVR panorama project soon thereafter. I was amazed with the results. Until then I had been a Uncompressed all the way kinda guy. Modern compression done really well early in the image chain doesn't seem degrade the image too much and saves a huge amount of bandwidth and storage.

[Gbabymogul]

Umm, what Claudio needs is the camera to test. His Viper tests were far more inclusive then a few random ones, including enviro tests (which red could use right now) :wink:. Claudio that Heineken commercial is one of my favorites. :wink:

There were a few names on a list I had who would do a great job of testing the camera while knowing the digital and film equivalents very well. Claudio was at the head of the list, Mr.Mullen, Dion Beebe, Mathew Libatique, and a few others.

Claudio, I would LOVE if you post any test results here, with you usual mix of perspicacity and honesty; it would be very much appreciated ...

:beer:

Obrigado

[Anders Holck]

Here is a DPX file that is about as full range as I can find. It will appear very flat, it has almost no correction applied, only a small bump in brightness and little bit of highlight retention.


Hi Evin.
Do you generally see this level of compression noise in the blue channel?

[Manfred Lopez]

Since my posting on this site, it looks like I am getting my tests.

Great! I hope you share your findings and opinions on this board. I for one would be very interested in reading what you have to say.

[zak forrest]

I think it is being read the wrong way by those that are not familiar w/ the source

yeah you should have left the quote up there man. i love that...

[zak forrest]

All I want in this world is for Claudio to test the Red the way he wants and to post his results.

I would also love to know what exactly him and David saw, was it the wedge tests, milkgirls, or what...?

[Adrian T.]

What about Claudio participating in the upcoming LART (L.A. RED Test). I think it would be great to have another unbiased view based on experience with other digital cameras.

Gibby, Ken, what do you think?

[Emmanuel Cambier]

It is not about blacks hitting zero. A jpeg does a good job with that. The files I get from the Viper/F23 look pretty flat so the image is very malleable. The more dynamic range I have, the more chances I have of bringing down a blown out sky or lifting something out of the blacks.

I did open your file. I discovered no new information in the blacks.

Here is an example:

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/heinekenttl.html


Well I think I start to see what you mean, it is true that the original file does not contain more informations in the black zones but just some kind of grey, wich is not very helpfull, I agree.
The thing is, and this the meaning of my first question, this grey zone is not suposed to retain any relevant informations, as the Jpeg shows, it's just meant to be solid black, so here's my question again, what are you expecting to find in those blacks ?
I mean the picture doesn't seem under or overexposed, at least not the woman nor the background, it's just the black car's roof (bottom right corner) that doesn't seem to have readable informations, but does it matter so much since you'd probably want to have those black really black anyway.

Poor Claudio, it must feel like hiting a hornet's nest, but you'll survive, don't worry.

Yours

Emmanuel

[Evin Grant]

Hi Evin.
Do you generally see this level of compression noise in the blue channel?

I wouldn't call it compression noise, it's just the normal noise you see when exposing at ISO 640. I have no way to know what is compression and what is just regular old noise. As far as the blue channel it's typical but not bothersome.

[jaadgy akanni]

I would also love to know what exactly him and David saw, was it the wedge tests, milkgirls, or what...?

All we humans are fallible, and sometimes see things through the eyes of a prejudiced mind, eyes that are predisposed against a reality. And as stubbornness takes the best of us, we can't see things with our real eyes.

[Paris Remillard]

I saw the Digital Cinema Society/Offhollywood demo at the NY Tech Expo thing last week or the week before, whenever it was, and they had some night shots that they were playing with in Scratch, if I remember right. Well, it was either Scratch or RedAlert. Either way, they were pulling a lot of information out of the blacks in those shots. And they were pulling the exposure all over the place in a few others shots, as well. There really was a lot of information to be found in there without the shots falling apart at all. I was very happy with what I saw. Then again I'm not shooting with a Viper or F23 everyday so I can't make a direct comparison, but...the RAW images looked very flexible to me.

[Bruce Allen]

Poor Claudio, it must feel like hiting a hornet's nest, but you'll survive, don't worry.

Claudio is right but sadly is facing the normal Reduser reaction.

My favorite is when people who clearly haven't shot much on either film, higher-end HD cameras or even the Red One itself get very emotional defending it!

Personally I'm finding I'm having to do more roto / painting / tweaking than I expected on the Red footage that I'm working on (across multiple projects / shoots) because there's a bit more noise / compression in the blacks and less information than I thought there'd be. But hey, my expectations in hindsight were stratospheric. Red delivers stratospheric minus 10 feet for an awesome price.

Again, this doesn't mean Red is not a mind-blowingly good camera!

Also, it will improve - eg:
1. Red's announced hardware improvements that will lower noise floor
2. Gradual improvements in RedCode
3. Future uncompressed / higher bitrate storage options.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[David Mullen ASC]

All we humans are fallible, and sometimes see things through the eyes of a prejudiced mind, eyes that are predisposed against a reality. And as stubbornness takes the best of us, we can't see things with our real eyes.

You're talking about a pro-digital director, so why would he have a prejudiced mind against RED footage? Fincher is a visual artist, and thus he has a well-developed but personally idiosyncratic taste that isn't going to follow everyone else's notions of what looks good or bad necessarily. In this case, I don't think it's not an issue of being prejudiced or predisposed, just that he saw something that he didn't like. But obviously he probably saw earlier footage where whatever it was that he didn't like may have been fixed by now, or maybe it's just a taste issue. He may even prefer the depth of field characteristics of 2/3" cameras, who knows.

You're talking about a director who made one of the first big, expensive studio movies to be shot digitally and recorded only to hard drives -- and for some reason, you think he's somehow stubbornly stuck in the past?

[donatello b]

when somebody like Scott Billups states that 4k DPX from RED alert are the BEST chroma keys he has EVER seen - ... and RED > DPX pulls a key
better than all film and all digital formats. = i listen ...

if you are having problems keying then i have to ask what did you/they do wrong when they shot the green screen ??

[Jannard]

There can be a huge difference between the results you are getting and what the camera is capable of. It is one of the reasons you hear "this is the best footage I have ever seen" and "well, it's good, but not as good as I thought".

There are 100 things to go wrong in shooting and processing RED footage. If you get it right, this is an incredibly noise free, high resolution, accurate color camera. If you are not seeing it, we need to know some details so we can help. However, if your expectations are that it is noiseless at ISO 2000... that just isn't fair.

We have had several "name" DP's tell us they are now getting better images from RED than anything they have ever shot before. And several of the highest profile VFX masters tell us they have never seen footage this easy to pull a key from. If you are not, something is wrong somewhere.

Talk to us... we are here to help. But we need more than "the image is not as good as I expected".
Jim

[Brandon Fraley]

...exactly what i was going to say

[jaadgy akanni]

You're talking about a director who made one of the first big, expensive studio movies to be shot digitally and recorded only to hard drives -- and for some reason, you think he's somehow stubbornly stuck in the past?

David, I wasn't referring to Fincher. I haven't read or heard him actually state his impressions on the RED, so I couldn't possibly have the audacity to deem him "stubbornly stuck in the past." I was actually referring to Claudio's statements. The more professional one is, the more careful one should be not to make statements that are non-empirical.

[Yash Keough]

Well I'm only an amateur really...and while I don't have any clue who is right on the compression and wha is actually going on...but what I find impressive is that the images are a major step above anything indies have had to work with at the price point for years. Now I may very well be wrong but I think that the average cinemagoer, when shown something shot on Red, would be hard pressed to tell the difference between red and film... Up until recently... I think there was still a noticeable enough difference that it wasn't too uncommon for somebody to notice that something was different. Anyways... Just my two cents :-)

Cheers

[Rudi Herbert]

There can be a huge difference between the results you are getting and what the camera is capable of...If you get it right, this is an incredibly noise free, high resolution, accurate color camera.
Talk to us... we are here to help. But we need more than "the image is not as good as I expected".
Jim

Jim,

In the spirit of RED and RedUser and the openness and genuine disposition to help the whole RED team continues to show, would you consider at some point posting some sort of "guidelines" if you will, knowledge based on your own experiences and those shared with you by many RED users, whereby it would help us "get it right" and make the camera produce the best images it can? I'm thinking some loose suggestions as to what settings work best for bright exterior shots, overcast exteriors, interiors, etc. I know it is impossible and even counter productive to compare and/or base one shooting condition with/on another one, since everything changes from shot to shot, including the DP and director's tastes and aims. However, I think that it would be useful to know that, for example, if you want to shoot crisp, clean, saturated images under bright sunlight, such and such setting should be enabled to conserve highlights, save the blacks, etc, etc, etc. Perhaps these guidelines could be based on meter readings/ISO settings, in an effort to even out the intended target with the advice offered?

This may be impractical or sound amateurish, but I still wonder how you would eliminate the harsh clipped highlights visible on "Crossing the Line" (still my favorite RED piece), which appear on far more places that the clouds by the way (helmets, weapons, leather jackets, etc) to bring an otherwise perfect scene into balance. And I am concerned because we just put our reservations down for three REDs and out first feature with them will feature plenty of bright exteriors. So, if someone has already figured out how to fix something that eluded a very accomplished cinematographer, well then, I would be very grateful for the advice. And for what is worth it, we are set on RED, we believe in it and we'll do whatever it takes to remedy its shortcomings to enjoy its advantages, but any help from the pioneers that come before us would be a god sent.

Regards,

[Bruce Allen]

And several of the highest profile VFX masters tell us they have never seen footage this easy to pull a key from. If you are not, something is wrong somewhere.

Talk to us... we are here to help. But we need more than "the image is not as good as I expected".
Jim

We're talking more about latitude and recovering detail from noisy shadows, not pulling a key.

Pulling a key is easy on Red with well lit footage. But you don't need 11.3 stops of latitude to pull a key.

EDIT: BTW, I still advocate Red over everything else to all and sundry, including random people I meet on the street. But I do warn them that reduser is full of crazy folks who haven't actually used the camera who rush like angry ants to defend it against any perceived threat (even if the "threat" costs a ton more, doesn't have cool 35mm DOF, needs expensive storage, etc - eg isn't really much of a threat at all).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jannard]

We're talking more about latitude and recovering detail from noisy shadows, not pulling a key.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce... I need some help. What ISO, what type of content? What app are you using and which settings did you use?

I'm keenly interested. We have footage here that is noiseless (really) at ISO 320.

Maybe you could let me know where I can upload the RAW file and see what you are talking about.

When you talk about more latitude... what are you comparing to? Are you trying to recover detail in the shadows due to under-exposure or are you just not seeing enough range? Any details would be helpful.

Jim

[Stacey Spears]

But I do warn them that reduser is full of crazy folks who haven't actually used the camera who rush like angry ants to defend it against any perceived threat

Sadly this is not limited to REDUSER. This seems to be common on most forums these days whether is it food, car or AV related. My favorite is still the Blu-ray forum where if you post anything positive about HD DVD, or negative about BD, they ban you.

There are those who know their stuff, those who are there to learn and those who parrot what others have said, right or wrong. Its the parrot's that are the loudest, so they must be right. :)

Sorry for the off topic post, but I know how Bruce feels.

[Jannard]

Stacey... we are all just trying to get to the bottom of issues to make our program better. We are not in denial. I was the 1st to post over-heating issues on Soderbergh's 1st day of shooting. Problems come and we fix them (or try to). Bruce has said that there are issues in trying to recover detail from the noisy shadows... a legitimate concern. I also know that we have the least noisy cinema camera in existence so it makes sense to try to understand the disparity. Real issues, real info, real solutions... whether it means we have something to fix or some info to share. Not rocket science, just a community trying to help each other.

The RED fans are worked up because the anti-RED sentiment runs deep... from day one. It is hard to control emotions on this topic. But here, we need to separate the "war" from the "quest". We are all in this together.

Jim

[claudio]

I originally came to this site to state that the RED camera was not used on CCBB. This was the original start of this thread.

When I started CCBB we were considering RED, D20, Dalsa and Viper. I looked at all these camera's. The only camera ready and best photographically at shoot time was the Viper. I do not believe there is anything wrong in stating I was not happy with the images I was presented. I have no allegiance to any medium. I have no sponsors. I shot Fincher's first HD (Viper) commercial (Xelibri). It is in my best interest to use the best camera possible for the job and if the camera is cheaper it will make the producers happy as well. I am very open otherwise I would not be doing these tests which we will all benefit from.

[Warren Kommers]

Although Zodiac was one of the fineset photographed HD films to date(savides da man), it had issues because of the limited 2/3" chip. There were definate scenes(35mm ish wide shot) where the DOF was not shallow enough to tell when they were racking between characters and I could not tell who I was supposed to be paying attention to. But they were racking and there was intention from Fincher that was not being communicated because of the medium. Now I love David Fincher movies but it was confusing enough that it took me out of the movie. Which is one of the worst things that can happen. For me this is the hierarchy of image characteristics.

1) DOF - Focus or should I say lack of focus is the ultimate control. This is the most effective way to get the audience to look at what you want them to. It is storytelling. It is control. When a image pops up the first thing your eye is going to go to is the thing in focus 80 percent of the time unless it's in the total dark and the rest of the image is not. Also assuming that not everything is in focus. As a director/storyteller this alone is worth far more than latitude.

2)Resolution - When I watched Baraka in 70mm this struck me. The less noise/grain the more 3D the 2D screen looks. Grain/Noise identifies the screen. The whole point 98 percent of the time is to make the audience forget they are sitting in a theatre right! However, thats not to say you may want to identify the screen at some point. Noise/Grain is part of the palette.

3) Color space/Latitude - Very important don't get me wrong. However, all I have to say is Saving Private Ryan or.....Traffic. How unrealistic is the color in these films or the crushed contrast. We as an audience have a lot of latitude(no pun intended) on the color and dynamic range. Again thats not to say it's very important it's just in the grand sceme of things.

RED has the first two in the bag over the Viper for sure. I would also argue that it probably wins number three as well. Who knows what images people have seen that makes Claudio and David feel this way. However, I think the unlikely dynamic range factor over RED is less important than what RED has going for it that the Viper does not. Wait....did that make sense?

In the end it's all a personal preference. Maybe there is something about the size of the Viper that allows David to get a shot he could not with 35mm or RED. And if that were the case then my personal list would have to be reconsidered to what these new shots were adding to the story.

[I Bloom]

This thread is like a fog.

Claudio. Your website is an education. I'm going to be back many times.

I guess I'm very confused about what one could want from Emmanuel Cambier's tiff file, that isn't there. Is is possible you could post a DPX file of an image with lots of information in the blacks for comparison.

IBloom

[Stacey Spears]

Jim, I am sorry, I think you might have misunderstood my post, at least I hope. :)

I understand the history of RED and the uphill battle for respect you have had to endure. I completely get the passion. My comments were not directed at the REDUSER community, but all enthusiast groups in general.

We are a passionate, if not a crazy, bunch of people and sometimes coming in from the outside can be difficult if you are not wearing your flack jacket. I think an anthropological study of new group behavior would be a fascinating project. Perhaps a documentary on social networking in general, which covers news groups, facebook, MySpace, Internet Cafés, etc…

I was not making any comments on the RED One itself. Your participation clearly shows you care. As I posted before, RED is as good as it is because you built it for yourself (The ultimate camera enthusiast), the rest of us just happen to directly benefit from your passion. I enjoy my daily fix of REDUSER. More like multiple fixes per day.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

First, thanks to OFFHOLLYWOOD for providing the wonderfull image I have been posting earlier, and to DIGITAL FX for hosting it.

Well I am ready to face the fact that the RedOne is not without limit.
In all the pictures shot on the camera, I have laid my greedy hands on, I have noticed that there is 2 kinds on cliping.
The obvious one is in the highlights of course, and the obvious fix is to only allow white regions presenting no noticable details, to clip.
The less obvious cliping that red shows is in the black zones of an image. It is true that some zones don't have any details in it, just a noisy grey, with no cure in sight. Come on guys check all the footage you want, and you will find those zones. So I would agree with Claudio that there is a limit to the amount of informations in dark unlit areas, and when you reach it it's like cliping your highlights, no way back, i'm facing the truth here.

Where I would tend to disagree with Claudio is in the conclusions one could draw from such discovery.
It seems that this limit hapens when the sensor will output a luminance of around 25 (RGB). 25 seems to be the lowest luminance reading in all uncorrected images downloaded, 255 being the highest.
If you leave those dark zones as is you have no detail and a lot of noise, and if you lower it by approx. 10 you are left with zero noise and still no detail, but your zone now looks like pure black (still reading 15 in luminance).
So, to me, the problem is where in the picture are located these zones in terms of exposure.
From all the images I've seen I would tend to conclude that these zones happen to fall where a deep black is expected if not desired.
Therefore I wouldn't object them as long as the Display system can reproduce blacks in a satisfying manner, otherwise you're stuck with grey patches in your images.

Now maybe there is something for Red to look for in those blacks, we shall see.

Sincerly yours

Emmanuel

[jaadgy akanni]

First, thanks to OFFHOLLYWOOD for providing the wonderfull image I have been posting earlier, and to DIGITAL FX for hosting it.

Well I am ready to face the fact that the RedOne is not without limit.
In all the pictures shot on the camera, I have laid my greedy hands on, I have noticed that there is 2 kinds on cliping.
The obvious one is in the highlights of course, and the obvious fix is to only allow white regions presenting no noticable details, to clip.
The less obvious cliping that red shows is in the black zones of an image. It is true that some zones don't have any details in it, just a noisy grey, with no cure in sight. Come on guys check all the footage you want, and you will find those zones. So I would agree with Claudio that there is a limit to the amount of informations in dark unlit areas, and when you reach it it's like cliping your highlights, no way back, i'm facing the truth here.

Where I would tend to disagree with Claudio is in the conclusions one could draw from such discovery.
It seems that this limit hapens when the sensor will output a luminance of around 25 (RGB). 25 seems to be the lowest luminance reading in all uncorrected images downloaded, 255 being the highest.
If you leave those dark zones as is you have no detail and a lot of noise, and if you lower it by approx. 10 you are left with zero noise and still no detail, but your zone now looks like pure black (still reading 15 in luminance).
So, to me, the problem is where in the picture are located these zones in terms of exposure.
From all the images I've seen I would tend to conclude that these zones happen to fall where a deep black is expected if not desired.
Therefore I wouldn't object them as long as the Display system can reproduce blacks in a satisfying manner, otherwise you're stuck with grey patches in your images.

Now maybe there is something for Red to look for in those blacks, we shall see.

Sincerly yours

Emmanuel

Emmanuel, this is the kind of post I appreciate; very helpful indeed. Merci!

[Graeme Nattress]

That's how all sensors work. They clip at the highlight end, and just fade into noise as you get darker and darker. The limited between where you can discern detail in the shadows and detail in the highlights is the signal to noise ratio or dynamic range.

The actual level at which this occurs is not really important as long as we're giving you the full precision from the sensor to a high bit format. Noise has a distribution, both positive above black, and negative below black. Yes, we preserve and give you this below black, so as to preserve the entire noise floor of the sensor. If you try to look below this nominal level of black, it's pure noise and no detail at all, but clipped noise can look unnatural so we preserve it, and then you can either clip it out, or crush it on a curve. Your choice.

Graeme

[Álex Montoya]

I don't get it, Emmanuel. What did you expect? Infinite shadow detail?

[Robert Sanders]

Even if the Viper had more shadow detail, in my opinion it doesn't matter, as those areas are fraught with noise that is really unpleasant looking. Again, my opinion, but I really do not like the noise characteristic of the Viper's noise floor.

[donatello b]

isn't 0 -255 8bit scale ?
... these are 12bit files, so should we be talkin 0-4000 scale ?

[jaadgy akanni]

Even if the Viper had more shadow detail, in my opinion it doesn't matter, as those areas are fraught with noise that is really unpleasant looking. Again, my opinion, but I really do not like the noise characteristic of the Viper's noise floor.

But Claudio is obviously of the opinion that the RED One doesn't have enough dynamic to perform with as much "malleability" as the Viper. Here's his quote:
"The files I get from the Viper/F23 look pretty flat so the image is very malleable. The more dynamic range I have, the more chances I have of bringing down a blown out sky or lifting something out of the blacks".

Could someone please expand on the phrase "lifting something out of the black' as it relates to the RED ONe?

[Emmanuel Cambier]

That's how all sensors work. They clip at the highlight end, and just fade into noise as you get darker and darker. The limited between where you can discern detail in the shadows and detail in the highlights is the signal to noise ratio or dynamic range.

The actual level at which this occurs is not really important as long as we're giving you the full precision from the sensor to a high bit format. Noise has a distribution, both positive above black, and negative below black. Yes, we preserve and give you this below black, so as to preserve the entire noise floor of the sensor. If you try to look below this nominal level of black, it's pure noise and no detail at all, but clipped noise can look unnatural so we preserve it, and then you can either clip it out, or crush it on a curve. Your choice.

Graeme

Hi Graeme

How about a tool in RedCine that would allow us to bring those blacks (and the noise) down were they belong without altering the rest of the image's brightness.
I know curves could do that, but I'm thinking of something more straight forward (pun intended).

In Aperture I use the brightness control exclusively for that purpose, it's forking fine since it leaves the highlights intact (wich i boost with exposure 's slide), but the medium part of the image can end up a bit under exposed.

I don't have access to RedCine or Red Alert cause I'm on a G5, so I have to use my imagination, maybe it's all in ther allready.

For Everybody, I'm more than happy about red footage and noise level and shadow details and all…
But Claudio is not, so I think it's worth trying to understand his point of view wish I don't share, and try to find out if there is something missing on the bottom end of our beloved cameras.
I don't think therse is anything missing, but let's all check it, can't hurt.

Yours

Emmanuel

[David Mullen ASC]

Claudio hasn't shot extensive tests of the current RED ONE yet so I would stop beating up on the guy for not having a definitive opinion. He may change his mind on the next digital feature, who knows. You guys are getting way to sensitive about this.

Don't forget that all of "Zodiak" went through an expensive but advanced noise reduction process at John Lowry's company, normally used for film restoration work. With that tool in your arsenal, you may be more comfortable with detail in the shadows that has some noise in it.

Clearly Claudio is more comfortable working with 10-bit LOG images and hasn't yet explored the issues regarding working with the RAW files from the RED camera -- he probably saw some RGB conversions from RED ALERT that looked a bit limited in terms of latitude, as we have all seen in some people's test footage. I'm sure on some future project, he'll take the time to explore it further. I'd stop with the nitpicking of everything he is saying based on an initial reaction.

[Graeme Nattress]

By definition, a blown sky has blown and there is no more detail there. It doesn't matter how many stops DR your camera has - if you blow the sky out - ie, it clips, there is not data there to pull back. None. Not on any camera.

Video cameras that shoot "raw", like the Viper use a log curve to fit all their sensor dynamic range into a 10bit range to go over HD-SDI. That, if it's done so as to preserve all the DR, will look very flat and boring (and green too, if it's the Viper).

RED is different. We don't shoot to legacy video tape, over legacy serial digital video interfaces. We shoot data and store data. The data is stored RAW, and then "Developed" in post. That developing process can keep all the DR the sensor recorded or you can throw some away or make the image look all pretty, or whatever you feel like.

In REDAlert / REDCine, you can usually get some detail back in "blown" highlights as they might not actually be blown. The default "development" has some "headroom" in there to help you keep a little extra highlight detail, but it's there if you set the exposure in our apps lower.

Lifting out of the blacks is just putting a secondary colour correction or a primary colour correction curve to boost the brightness of dark areas of the image to make them more visible. By default, the log curve we use, and the way we use the REC709 gamma curve show you ALL the dynamic range, and blacks are quite boosted by both those curves rendering all their detail reasonably visible to begin with.

That's why we don't generally measure of analyze dynamic range with nice images, but with calibrated transmissive charts so we can really see what's going on. You can read about that on other postings by me though.

Graeme

[Graeme Nattress]

Emmanuel, exposure always crushes / clips highlights, so if you want to see / rescue what's on in the top end, boost brightness, reduce exposure. To nicely blacken up the shadows, increase contrast, or, for finer control, play with curves.

To further David's point, looking at a developed image in REDCine/Alert can be like looking at a positive print made from the negative, or it could be like looking at a scan of the negative, or somewhere inbetween. Obviously, if you judge the DR of film by looking at a print you'll think it has a much lower DR than if you look at the scan of a negative.

Graeme

[Stacey Spears]

isn't 0 -255 8bit scale ?
... these are 12bit files, so should we be talkin 0-4000 scale ?

Besides the range difference, you have non-linear vs. linear information. When working in 8-bit, you are working with non-linear values. The 12-bit from the sensor is linear.

One of the most exciting aspects of the RED camera, to me, is the fact that we are getting access to the unadulterated sensor data. This is, of course, if you don't count compression.

Claudio keeps pointing to compression as a possible cause. One way to dispell this is to actually provide a frame of truly uncompressed 4k along with a compressed version.

[Warren Kommers]

Don't forget that all of "Zodiak" went through an expensive but advanced noise reduction process at John Lowry's company, normally used for film restoration work. With that tool in your arsenal, you may be more comfortable with detail in the shadows that has some noise in it.


True. I forgot to mention that. It's a noisy camera.

[I Bloom]

I don't get it, Emmanuel. What did you expect? Infinite shadow detail?

If I'm understanding correctly he is saying that values below 25 (this is if you take a file into photoshop and use the eye-dropper tool across 256 possible values for example, in 12 bit land that would be 400 aye.) Thats 10% of the total signal... anything below that is mud. Even if it's not in the noise floor. NOT TRUE friends. Emmanuel look closely at that histogram, that tiff has been graded.

Lets start fresh.

Here's a shot I did, at night, all existing light. Wide open on and 18mm Superspeed. 355/360 shutter.

I took the .R3D into RedAlert and exported it with these settings.

ISO 320
5000K
Tint 0
REC 709
Exposure 0
Saturation 1
Contrast 0
Brightness 0
RGB all 1
DRX 0.50
Black offset 720
Flat curve.

The tiff file is here: http://www.redhax.net/NightShot.tiff (Please do mirror ;)
http://www.bealecorner.org/red/RED-NightShot.tiff

And here's a JPEG:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1196107578.jpg
and the histogram:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1196107966.jpg

Take it the tiff into photoshop. Open levels and set the RGB levels to 0,1.0,25. Here is what you get. I used the color range selection to show whats above 25.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1196107233.jpg
Maybe there is a flaw in my methodology here but I hope that prooves to you there are details in the blacks on RED below 10%. Tons.

And keep in mind this is Redcode compression part of 4 minutes of material recorded to an 8GB flashcard.

IBloom

[Casey Green]

Claudio hasn't shot extensive tests of the current RED ONE yet so I would stop beating up on the guy for not having a definitive opinion. He may change his mind on the next digital feature, who knows...

Good point. And let's not forget that all RED ONE cameras are being updated with a new daughter board to the sensor. This had been stated by RED to result in "increased dynamic range and reduced noise" and be a "major breakthrough".

Original thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5454

I have a feeling that this may be the "tweak" that helps find the Cameras sweet spot and those really concerned with DR should wait to see images from these updated cameras. Hopefully these cameras will be out in the field soon.

Anyone who has one yet?

[Graeme Nattress]

You might even get a tad more in the highlights if you set the exposure a little lower in REDAlert. You can take it down to -0.4 or more depending on the white balance.

Graeme

[Gbabymogul]

They tested Red, Dalsa, Viper, and the D20, so it follows that he isn't unaware of raw imaging etc... look forward to your results (when using the newest version cameras).

ps - Is Brad Pitt as handsome as they say ? :biggrin:

;)

[I Bloom]

I don't think the daughter board update matters. That's just Jim putting the nails in the coffins of his competition.

Adios muchachos. You were good.

[I Bloom]

You might even get a tad more in the highlights if you set the exposure a little lower in REDAlert. You can take it down to -0.4 or more depending on the white balance.

Graeme

What about Gamma, should we use Linear light?

IBloom

[Deanan]

They tested Red, Dalsa, Viper, and the D20, so it follows that he isn't unaware of raw imaging etc... look forward to your results (when using the newest version cameras).


They did not test RED One before CCBB.

[Graeme Nattress]

Linear Light, REDLog and REC709 gamma all preserve the dynamic range. Use whichever is appropriate for your output.

Graeme

[Gbabymogul]

When I started CCBB we were considering RED, D20, Dalsa and Viper. I looked at all these camera's. The only camera ready and best photographically at shoot time was the Viper. I do not believe there is anything wrong in stating I was not happy with the images I was presented. I have no allegiance to any medium. I have no sponsors. I shot Fincher's first HD (Viper) commercial (Xelibri). It is in my best interest to use the best camera possible for the job and if the camera is cheaper it will make the producers happy as well. I am very open otherwise I would not be doing these tests which we will all benefit from.I assumed looked at means evaluated, since this was before Boris and Natasha.

Either way, general discussion on dr and raw is cool, but it's the questioning Claudio's abilities that's funny to me.

Like I said, he's just one opinion and he hasn't seen the latest versions. He may really dig the camera.
This community has got to relax (have some perspective), but that's just my opinion.





Signed,

Respectfully, appreciatively, but honest reservation holder.

[claudio]

Both the F23 and RED were not available in time for CCBB when it started over a year ago, but the F23 was used in the final scene shot 3 months ago.

Here is a test I did to compare the F23 and the Viper. These images have been color corrected. Because the F23 has more range in the highlights the sky holds more detail. It's hard to tell without moving full rez images, but the noise on the F23 is much lower. Also look at what happens to detail on the ground when the sun hits the chip. This test was run at full rez and I did see it projected. But you can see where the F23 shines.

These test were to show:
How the S2 hard drives handled vibration. This test tore the bumper off our rental. Hard drive did not fail
Highlight and shadow detail.
Extreme over and underexposures
Recovery from under exposure
Recovery from over exposure
Day and night available light
See how far I can bring up underexpose before an unacceptable amount of noise.

This only shows a portion of the test.

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/f23vsviper

If we did not care about manipulating the image we would all be happy with jpegs.

We are shooting tests tomorrow. I will be running it side by side with the F23 which has more range and less noise than the Viper. Unfortunately I am working Wed thru Sun, so I will not be able to view the footage till after then plus I may need sometime to play with the red footage.

I really do not want to comment any more about RED till then.

[John Allardice]

Liked the test Claudio,
The F23 definitely showed the increased DR in the night shots, being able to lift the floor of the image without losing the detail in the highlights, as was starting to happen on a couple of the viper shots.
But I still love the Vipers shoulder on the daytime stuff, the roll-off into full white seems much more filmic in nature.... Although this is probably helped by the slightly warmer almost 'chocolatey' tint to the vipers footage (I'm a sucker for that hue in desert stuff)

[jbeale]

Thanks for the very interesting dark parking lot TIFF IBloom! (in this post:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=112776#post112776 )

I also added a copy of the TIFF to my page-of-Red-stuff here: http://www.bealecorner.org/red/index.html

[Anders Holck]

We are shooting tests tomorrow. I will be running it side by side with the F23 which has more range and less noise than the Viper.

Very much appreciated :-) Should be very interesting...

[Rudi Herbert]

This is exciting!

Claudio's test clearly show the F-23 to have more range and less noise than the Viper, it is undeniable, which would seem to signal the F-23 as the "standard" among all the ultra expensive HD cameras. If Claudio will test RED against the F-23, then I can't imagine a better test to really show the capabilities of the RED. Can't wait to see those images...Anybody care to do Claudio's gig from Wed thru Sun so he can concentrate on the test? :-)

[Scott Webster]

He should see if he can gain access to the F-35...:shiftyph34r:

[Mike Prevette]

Thanks for posting that test Claudio. Thank you for taking time to be here as well.

[Greg M]

WOW, out of pocket for a few days and this thread has come alive.

Thanks Claudio for staying in here and supporting this discussion.

[Robert Sanders]

Don't forget that all of "Zodiak" went through an expensive but advanced noise reduction process at John Lowry's company, normally used for film restoration work. With that tool in your arsenal, you may be more comfortable with detail in the shadows that has some noise in it.

I didn't realize that. That would explain a lot.

I'd read an article interviewing James Cameron where he touted the wonders Lowry could do to badly exposed HD. He went on to say that he would run his entire film through the Lowry process regardless of how well it was exposed (or looked) simply because Lowry's algorithm's were doing great things to the image.

Makes me wonder what this process costs. David mentioned above that it was "expensive". I wonder how expensive. Hundreds of thousands?

[Warren Kommers]

I didn't realize that. That would explain a lot.

I'd read an article interviewing James Cameron where he touted the wonders Lowry could do to badly exposed HD. He went on to say that he would run his entire film through the Lowry process regardless of how well it was exposed (or looked) simply because Lowry's algorithm's were doing great things to the image.

Makes me wonder what this process costs. David mentioned above that it was "expensive". I wonder how expensive. Hundreds of thousands?

It's very expensive. Intially they were budgeted for a few scenes and then Fincher made it happen on the entire film. Zodiac is definately not representitve of the Viper out of the box. Let's hope Apple buys Lowry's magic algorithms like they did Final Touch(now color) and it will be availble for $699 to all!

On Panic Room he intentionaly underexposed 5277 by a ways so that the only way it could be recovered is by doing a DI with noise reduction. That's how he got the studio to pay for the entire film to be DI'ed. This is back when hardly any films if any were finished this way. That's at least what Technique's(technicolor DI facility) story was when I was there. Good story at least.

[Vincent S]

I don't want to sidetrack this good thread but here is a Apple article I read on Lowry's work on restoring star wars

http://www.apple.com/ca/pro/film/lowry/starwars/index.html

[David Mullen ASC]

That F23-Viper test shows me that there is an extra stop of information at either end on the F23, and the image seems less "muddy" at night. There is also some color casts creeping into the whites in the sky on the Viper footage. I don't know if it's whole "green" thing that people talk about.

Of course, the F23 is a few years newer than the Viper, with a 14-bit A/D instead of a 12-bit A/D, etc... I'm sure the "Viper 2", if that comes out, will have some improvements.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Boy I am enjoying this thread a lot.. This is cool
Jay

[Robert Sanders]

It's very expensive. Intially they were budgeted for a few scenes and then Fincher made it happen on the entire film. Zodiac is definately not representitve of the Viper out of the box. Let's hope Apple buys Lowry's magic algorithms like they did Final Touch(now color) and it will be availble for $699 to all!

On Panic Room he intentionaly underexposed 5277 by a ways so that the only way it could be recovered is by doing a DI with noise reduction. That's how he got the studio to pay for the entire film to be DI'ed. This is back when hardly any films if any were finished this way. That's at least what Technique's(technicolor DI facility) story was when I was there. Good story at least.

Those are great stories! I'd heard rumors of dailies from Panic Room appearing almost completely black.

I noticed the noise problems on the "available light" scenes in the HD Quicktimes of the trailer for Zodiac Apple released about a month or so before release. I still have them saved on my hard drive. It was that tell-tale noise coupled with the Miami Vice footage that convinced me that the Viper's noise floor was not very pleasant (at least to me eyes).

And then the final release of Zodiac looked silky smooth and relatively noise free (looking forward to the HD-DVD release of the director's cut). I'd love to know more about what Lowry's proprietary technology is doing to reduce so much noise yet retain all that detail. It's pretty amazing. But I'm sure that's what an entire room full of Xserve's is for, eh? LOL

I've been playing with the Nattress FX plugins for Color. Particularly the noise reducers. They're cool. But the amount of detail loss is surprising.

[Robert Sanders]

Also, looks like Lowry Digital Images is now DTS Digital Images.

http://www.dtsonline.com/digitalcinema/contentservices/digitalimages.php

[RCFisher]

Claudio does the F23 have a cine mode like the Vipers Filmstream mode that doesn't apply gama curves or a color matrix to the image? I liked the quality of the Viper myself even though it had a little less latitude. I does seem to have a bit of green cast to the image compared to the F23 which seems colder or more neutral. The F23 seemed a little bit sharper. Were the same lenses used on both cameras? This could play into the color cast a bit but chances are it didn't. My big gripe with the F23 is the cost which is close to $200K I think, the Viper is around $100K and the Red comes in at $17.5K, $30K with some acc. The one thing these expensive cameras do have is non-interpolated color so you have max color detail and increased image detail compared to a bayer sensor of the same resolution. But it would be pretty difficult to make a 4K 3-chip camera and the lenses would be huge!

[Graeme Nattress]

And remember that too much sharpness can be a bad thing if it leads to excessive aliasing. Anyone shot a Viper or F23 pointing at a nice high resolution zone plate?

Graeme

[RCFisher]

That's the nice thing about starting with a 4K image, it holds it's detail and clarity longer without adding sharpness (unsharp mask) to it.

[David Mullen ASC]

Claudio does the F23 have a cine mode like the Vipers Filmstream mode that doesn't apply gama curves or a color matrix to the image?

Actually the FilmStream mode does convert the linear-ish RGB signal into a LOG gamma curve. That's pretty much all it does, however -- for other features, you have to use one of the other modes.

The F23 can do the same thing -- you can use their S-LOG curve and nothing else basically and record information outside of broadcast color space.

[Petr Dvorak]

ps - Is Brad Pitt as handsome as they say ? :biggrin:

;)

... dont know but he is smaller than you expect :biggrin:

[MalcomXB]

when somebody like Scott Billups states that 4k DPX from RED alert are the BEST chroma keys he has EVER seen - ... and RED > DPX pulls a key
better than all film and all digital formats. = i listen ...

scott is mr. hdv. he also says that the 24f from xlh1 looks the same as 35mm film. no offense to him or you, but that guy has said some stuff that is wrong.

I hope that red will eventually get it right, but i >>>listen<< to what people say who are not getting $ from the company who wants it said

x

[Ruairi Robinson]

Some updated info, this is strictly RUMOR.

To clarify my first post-
Two RED ONE Cameras shipped into New Orleans several weeks ago and were delivered to a set called The Curious Case of Benjamin Buttons, call sheets were labled The Curious Case of Benjamin Buttons, and slates were labled The Curious Case of Benjamin Buttons.
They were shooting VFX shots with a look alike Brad Pitt. The cameras shot several scenes. The DP was Keith Smith.

I have no idea if this was actually for the feature The Curious Case of Benjamin Buttons, it could have been promos, behind the scenes, who knows what. This could have been some fake movie, or a very expensive practical joke.

I was not there personally to witness this, but was told this by the person who delivered the cameras to the set. He would have no reason to make this up. The cameras came from a rental house in LA that I will not identify.

THIS IS STRICTLY A RUMOR!!

Would help if you got the title right!

R.

[Greg M]

there you go, it was a practical joke...sounds like we were punked

[Michel Hafner]

I'd love to know more about what Lowry's proprietary technology is doing to reduce so much noise yet retain all that detail. .
Temporal filtering...

[Petr Dvorak]

I'd love to know more about what Lowry's proprietary technology is doing to reduce so much noise yet retain all that detail.

me too...

http://spotlight.iridas.com/200509/artwork/cola/index.html

[sparkhope]

Anyone know whether Claudio had a chance to complete the RED test?

[Adrian T.]

Anyone know whether Claudio had a chance to complete the RED test?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6503 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6503)