Student Filmmaker

[Nathan Garofalos]

Would anyone be willing to donate any useful materials (time, resources, contacts, etc…) to an aspiring student filmmaker? I am shooting a new feature in early 2008 with the hopes of premiering it at Sundance in 2009. If anyone could help me out in any way that would be great, thanks.

Nathan

[number6]

Would anyone be willing to donate

Nathan

No...

[Bruce Allen]

Tenshredd7, everyone's pretty generous out here. But it's more of a two-way community thing than a one-way donation thing... I hope!

So, talk to people in your area, try to help them out (whether in your specific areas of expertise, or whether it's just being a PA for a day - I've done both ;) and people will get to like you and try to help you.

Most of us would love to be shooting a feature in early 2008 too with hopes of premiering it at Sundance in 2009 but it's not really practical. I must say, you might want to delay things a bit if you haven't done enough pre-production (early 2008 is soon!).

Anyway: here's my plan:
1. be nice to people and help them out

2. Once you have been nice to people, and they start offering to help you out, you'll want to have evidence of creative filmmaking talent (good short film, etc), plus a killer script / great idea... eg something worthwhile for people to get excited about.

Then... very important:
3. Continue to be nice to people, once they've done you favors.

You can go the other route (just burn your way through credit cards, other peoples' money, favors, etc in the hope that your film will be a huge success and you'll be the next hot director), but that's not what Reduser is about, I hope. Some directors definitely used that method to get to the top though :(

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[number6]

Yeah, what he said.:biggrin:

[Brandon Fraley]

exactly, offer help, don't ask for it.

Everyone understands what you really want, but THAT's how you get things

[Jeremy Teman]

Don't rob a bank dude!

[Jason Francois]

I will give you a tip for starters....Don't put all your eggs into one basket and focus just on Sundance. It wreaks of "student filmmaker". Better to start with making the best film you can and letting the schedule and such fall where they may. I've seen more than one filmmaker (myself included) base everything around Sundance and miss other important opportunities that could have made their film successful. Keep in mind that getting into Sundance can also be very political, like a lot of big festivals...so it's about more than just making a great movie.

[Nathan Garofalos]

What would be other festivals that would be appropriate for me to take my film too? Also on annother note, what are film schools looking for in a potential student?

[Jeremy Teman]

Aren't you already a film student? Or just student?

[Nathan Garofalos]

I'm just a student. I didn't get accepted into my top choices the first time around. So I am re applying with the hopes of getting in. Do you have any advice?

[Dan Blanchett]

You might get more feedback on a topic-specific forum like this one:

http://www.studentfilmmakers.com/bb/

Good luck!

[vincelucero]

you tube...

[Shawn Nelson]

Give up any idea of a feature until you've done at least a dozen short films.

Ditto to earlier advice, first offer to help others. Learning from other's screw ups is much cheaper, and less stressful.

Btw, public access will let you use cameras, editing bays and basic light kits/audio kits for free. Check your local area.

[Phil Becque]

Why not make your own short with a DV camera and edit on a PC or MAC? You will still need all the same elements as a feature but with far less outlay. The hardest part of my recent award winning 84 minute doc was the first 5 minutes.

I had a 100 page script for a 90 minute project but the beggining was crap. I kept putting it off - eventually and after about 6 unsuccessful attempts I came up with a beggining that was just right.

If you already have an idea - make a demo of a few mintues and get some reaction/advise from people in the know.

All the best, Phil

[Russ McDonald]

Give up any idea of a feature until you've done at least a dozen short films.

Ditto to earlier advice, first offer to help others. Learning from other's screw ups is much cheaper, and less stressful.

Btw, public access will let you use cameras, editing bays and basic light kits/audio kits for free. Check your local area.

No one buys shorts, if you have a feature length script, shoot the feature.

[Shawn Nelson]

No one buys shorts, if you have a feature length script, shoot the feature.

hey Adobeone, I like your posts and the way you think, but on this point I disagree.

The point to this is long-term sustainability, the ability to get into the industry and stay there. I agree that shorts don't make money, I am painfully aware of that. However, what are the odds of a first-time filmmaker's first feature making any money? All together now - zero!

However, taking the same amount of money and effort of a single feature, and instead put that into 12 shorts, he'd come out the other side knowing pretty well what it takes, and could then do a feature with a hope of selling it.

Most indies don't learn much from their features, because they put too much time and money and are too close to them. They make mistakes that could have been rectified in one short but instead are spread over 90 minutes. Then they get mad when no one wants to buy their $30k jewel.

[redcinematographer]

What would be other festivals that would be appropriate for me to take my film too? Also on annother note, what are film schools looking for in a potential student?

If you subscribe to withoutabox.com you will find out about many other festivals and when your film is ready you can submit it through the site too.

[Russ McDonald]

hey Adobeone, I like your posts and the way you think, but on this point I disagree.

The point to this is long-term sustainability, the ability to get into the industry and stay there. I agree that shorts don't make money, I am painfully aware of that. However, what are the odds of a first-time filmmaker's first feature making any money? All together now - zero!

However, taking the same amount of money and effort of a single feature, and instead put that into 12 shorts, he'd come out the other side knowing pretty well what it takes, and could then do a feature with a hope of selling it.

Most indies don't learn much from their features, because they put too much time and money and are too close to them. They make mistakes that could have been rectified in one short but instead are spread over 90 minutes. Then they get mad when no one wants to buy their $30k jewel.

There is one Axiom in the film business, lost to 80% of the artist that make them.

Adobeone film Maxim number 1. The art of cinema is the seamless blend of art and commerce.

First rule of commerce, if you have something that more than one person is willing to pay for you have leverage.

The effort it takes to do 12 shorts, is the same if not more, that it takes to make a feature. Mistakes are made everyday by more experienced filmmakers, than the person we a talking about.

Our young filmmaker could crash and burn, or hit a home run. It happens everyday in Hollywood. Their are so many ancillary markets for feature length films. Even a 30,000 gem can make allot of money.

You prove way more to me as a Producer, and an Investor if you can complete a full feature, than twelve separate short films.

[Andrew Kimery]

You prove way more to me as a Producer, and an Investor if you can complete a full feature, than twelve separate short films.

Since we are talking about very limited budgets, what about a really nice looking short (that is a cut down from a feature length script) vs. a poor looking feature? A nice looking, proof-of-concept short could be pedaled around to investors in hopes of raising money to shoot the feature on a bigger budget.


-A

[Nathan Garofalos]

I have made less than a dozen shorts, but about every one is five minutes or more, My script is done, and i have a casting call for actors in january, then i plan on rehersing for a few months along side with my location scouting. I have a storyboard, a very rough story board that doesnt corospond to my locations, that i want to complete as soon as i get my locations set. I also am now toying with the idea fo doing shorts instead to get me into college, rather than liek 7 shorts and a feature. But what shuold i do about lights? i want to shoot more than a basic 3point set up, but dont want to spend a ton of money on it. Any ideas? Thanks.

[Russ McDonald]

Since we are talking about very limited budgets, what about a really nice looking short (that is a cut down from a feature length script) vs. a poor looking feature? A nice looking, proof-of-concept short could be pedaled around to investors in hopes of raising money to shoot the feature on a bigger budget.


-A

In fairness to Shawn the short as a learning tool, or a calling card, he's right they are worth the time.

In your context Adkimery, to use it as a tool to move the project to the next level. I would highly recommend that you do so, keep it short, more like a trailer than a 10 min visual synopsis. That's what I did with Eddie's Night Out. I spent about 1300.00 to do the trailer, and it got me 50,000. A month later I was shoot my first feature.

I'm a jump in the deep end guy, I had over 15 years experience before I shot Eddies. Those first couple days, I was aware of what I was doing, but it felt like I was watching myself do it. It was intimidating, and believe me I'm not a guy who gets intimidated easily.

[Shawn Nelson]

I've shot a dozen shorts over the last 5 years plus one mini feature (55 min). I feel pretty ready to do a feature, but I'm going to buckle down and do at least three more shorts to make sure that when I do a feature I can make it exceptional.

[Russ McDonald]

I have made less than a dozen shorts, but about every one is five minutes or more, My script is done, and i have a casting call for actors in january, then i plan on rehersing for a few months along side with my location scouting. I have a storyboard, a very rough story board that doesnt corospond to my locations, that i want to complete as soon as i get my locations set. I also am now toying with the idea fo doing shorts instead to get me into college, rather than liek 7 shorts and a feature. But what shuold i do about lights? i want to shoot more than a basic 3point set up, but dont want to spend a ton of money on it. Any ideas? Thanks.

Nathan

The key to making your decision, it to reverse budget your film. Whatever money you have to make your film. Cut it in half 50% goes to post, 50% goes to shooting.

Look at the math, the 50% you have for post-production has to include your your media kit, as well as promotional items for the festival . These materials are important, they got to be on par with your competition if you want to make an impact.

Than look at what's left, do you have what it takes to do what you want to do. The more locations the more money it takes. I shot Eddies in San Diego at the old Wonder bread factory. I had allot of exteriors, all of it was shot within 5 blocks, and that was a big challenge. San Diego is great for that kind of shooting.

Your young, you have time on your side.

[Phil Becque]

Hi Folks,

I'm not trying to piss on anyone elses experience here but the idea that you can't make money from a short is well past it's sell-by-date.

There is a film maker who made a short about Jewish boy friends - or something like that - she has it downloadable from iTunes - she's made a lot of money at 20 cents a pop.

I'm sorry I don't have the link any more but internet marketing of shorts is a viable biz plan now. Nokia will also pay for 3 minute shorts that are 'entertaining' in some way.

Also check out this link:

http://www.internetmarketingforfilmmakers.com/

This is ideal for shorts because it's still quite hard to download a 90min feature.

NOW, I agree that if you are going the feature route there are more traditional distribution routes open to you. And I have been down the withoutabox FF submission route with reasonable success; but that is still not certain. Many times you won't even get a screening.

My point is that now there are multiple ways you can get revenue for your product - even if it's 'only' a short. Check out iTunes?

All the best, Phil

[Zakaree Sandberg]

But what shuold i do about lights? i want to shoot more than a basic 3point set up, but dont want to spend a ton of money on it. Any ideas? Thanks.

Be resourceful..
You dont need mole, arri, k5600... so on...
I have lit some awesome sets with a common home depot lighting system..
China Balls are a cheap favorite that are used professionally.. they might not be your typical pier one import china balls, but they are basically the same:)

[Nathan Garofalos]

Phil,

How would I go about selling a short to itunes? Do you think that it would be possible to make a short that would generate enough revenue to shoot a feature? Also, what kind of lights from home depot would be ideal for lighting a scene, or where and what are china balls? The balls you see in a oriental movie made of paper machee? What would be a good type of material I could rig up to bounce the light?

[Phil Becque]

Hi Nathan (and anyone else with a short film),

If you go to this link -

http://www.apple.com/uk/itunes/contentproviders/faq.html

or poke around on the iTunes WEB site like have for 5mins you should be able to figure it out. Rememer you are a 'content provider' in their terms.

I should say I have not made a short, so I don't have direct experience but I know that other people are getting a revenue stream going from iTunes. How much that's worth and whether that would pay for a feature; is beyond (even) my (considerable) psychic powers to predict (he added modestly).

What I can predict (if my experience is anything to go by) is the sheer bloody minded effort and application you are going to need to get ANYWHERE in the film biz - as I am discovering with my own attempts at distribution.

First think of something really hard - like walking to the South Pole and back from where you live - we'll call that one unit of effort - then think of a really large number - no not that one! a really BIG number like 99 raised to the power of 10000000000000000000000000000000.

Then multiply that by the number of times anyone has ever said "No" to you. Remember to include all those women - that's a lot right? Then divide that by 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001
Now you end up with the number of effort units required to get to first base - congratulations!

First thing I'd do is sign on to withoutabox: http://www.withoutabox.com/

You will need to submit your short to many festivals to have any chance of getting a screening - let alone 2 awards like I have for my latest feature (he boasted). The only point of getting an award (apart from walking around like a self absorbed, grinning twat for two months) is that you can promote your film as being 'award winning' and for some reason . . . this helps when you talk to distributors or do your own on eBay (like me).

I remember reading one of the posts on the WAB forum - the gist of which was "my overnight success came about after submitting my film to 350 Film Festivals over a period of 18 months" - at that point I had become down hearted because the first festival I submitted to (Toronto) had not even had the decency to tell me that I didn't have a screening. That's true of about 20% FF's BTW. They will publish the screening list - you go will go through it several times - skipping over catagories like "Lesbian Firsts" only to find that your project has not been accepted.

So unless you thrive on rejection - you might want to find someone who can do all of that for you - a friend or relative who cares about your project and wants to help is best.

As for your lighting questions - I fear you are asking the wrong person - I went out and purchased a basic lighting kit because I got fed up of trying to do it on the cheap. The results were dramatically better. But like Zak I have lit things with as little as $20 - although in my case the results were less than optimum - well all right then - piss poor.

Good luck with your project and remember "that a man is only as big as the dreams he dares to live" - you could thank Cam Diver for that pearl - but he's too busy pulling his legs out of a great white shark to respond at the moment.

All the best, Phil

[Nathan Garofalos]

Thanks Phil,

I really appreciate your time and everyone else who has been givving me great ideas. If anyone has any other ideas, or advice, please let me know. Also if anyone is going to be up in Lake Tahoe this month or the first week in January let me know. Thanks again.

[Nathan Garofalos]

These are all videos my friend Kyle and i have made, we work on alot of projects together. The first video is an intro to a male beauty pagaent I helped put on at my school, none of it is serious, just something fun i wanted to make, then we showed the video at my school before the pagaent (its all a HUGE joke) http://youtube.com/watch?v=n_0B-MOznvk

This video is just joking about a tv show i did at my school called VTV (viking telivision) and how it was hellish. http://youtube.com/watch?v=7VXuKgIX47I

This Last video is an intro Kyle and i made that makes fun of our AP calculus class... It speaks for its self. http://youtube.com/watchv=wyAHmIesMlk

Hope you enjoy.

[Samuel Doyle]

Nathan, best advice is to listen to people like Phil.......

S

[Craig Bowman]

http://hollywoodcamerawork.us

No student should be without this DVD series.

[Nathan Garofalos]

Okay, but why do you say that?

[Shawn Nelson]

Ditto to the Hollywood Camera work. It does an amazing job of explaining the why behind camera moves. If you would watch those DVDs repeatedly until you really know them, you'd have come a long way in knowing about framing and composition.

[Nathan Garofalos]

Alright, that sounds good. Does anyone know where I could get it for less than 400 dollars?

[Craig Bowman]

Alright, that sounds good. Does anyone know where I could get it for less than 400 dollars?

Try reading the paragraph right below the price when you visit the site. There is currently a 30% Christmas discount.

[BENTrandom]

Just chiming into say that the advice given so far is all excellent. I think the old adage of "Learn by Doing" is particularly important when working on shoots.
Also, make shorts! Even if its with the family camcorder and two VCRs (This is how I first learned editing outside of in-camera). Nothing helps you learn like a long string of terrible failures. :biggrin:
As an example my company has been making shorts since we were in college. When we made our first feature (Which has 5 directors making it a sort of hybrid short film anthology but one narrative feature... confusing I know) we still have been making shorts as we worked on post, traveling to festivals and selling for distribution. And not only have we been making shorts but we've also been helping out on other people's shoots as well. We're all still learning by doing.

Just so you can see I'm not blowing smoke: http://www.randomcreatureface.com/

[Shawn Nelson]

BENTrandom, how did that turn out, having a feature made up of the short films? Did you at least break even on the venture?

[BENTrandom]

Hey Shawn,
I think it turned out surprisingly well but I might be a bit biased haha
It's a concept that really isn't used all that often so that is something to keep it unique. But, apparently, as we've learned, that also makes it difficult to market. That's mainly the reason we started selling a special edition of our DVD to keep some revenue coming in. We are in talks with a distributor but they aren't sure if they want to release it under their current label or a new subsidiary they are starting. Either way we'd break even and possibly make a decent profit off of it. Hope that convoluted answer helped.

And here's a couple of the reviews that might explain the film's story a little more:
http://www.dreadcentral.com/node/11162
http://creep.bravehost.com/reviewsummerschool.html
http://www.fatally-yours.com/horror-reviews/summer-school/

[Nathan Garofalos]

Would you ever consider shooting this way again?

[BENTrandom]

Well, if you mean shoot in the way of an anthology style film. Definitely, if the material works for it. It was fun to see how each different director handles their story and having them as crew on my parts helped keep the vibe of the film consistent. And I plan to keep shooting with the same core crew as long as physically possible because I now know they'll go the extra mile to get a quality product.
If you mean shoot a feature length film on weekends for a production budget of $8,000.00 on a DVX100A... not so much. It was an amazing learning experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I can't see anyway I'd be able to (or really want to for such a subatomic budget) do it again since I graduated after we shot it and need to pay these pesky student loans off. That and we're always trying to up our quality and that takes a bit more money. Obviously I'm on this site because I believe the RED is part of that growth.
That's not to say if you've got limited funds as well you shouldn't get a decent camera (obviously the RED would be fantastic) , a unique script (unless you can attach a quasi-famous celeb this will be your big selling point), a dedicated crew (that will show up everyday you need them even if you can't pay. Good luck on this one), and good actors (local colleges with theater programs can find you some great people). Oh and feed people. Especially if there is no pay. That goes for features and shorts.

[donatello b]

Nathan ... where are you located ?
working on other projects is a good learning experience too ...

[Phil Becque]

http://hollywoodcamerawork.us

No student should be without this DVD series.

Thanks for posting that Craig!

I've just ordered this - it looks like just what I need. I hope it arives this week so I can watch it over XMAS!

All the best, Phil

[Nathan Garofalos]

donatello, I'm in South Lake Tahoe. I agree, working on other projects is good learning experience. It great being able to see what other people are doing, and for me, making movies is just fun and enjoyable. I love it.

BENTrandom, I did this fifteen minute short and I feeding everyone helped an awful lot. I couldn't pay people, but I had the schedule planned out to shoot if over two weeks, and at the end of the first week, I met with my cast and crew at my house and had a mini screening and let everyone give me their input. I liked getting their feedback, but also more importantly, everyone was happy because they felt like they were getting a say in the project. The feeling of having a voice may have made everything run more smoothly.

[Nathan Garofalos]

How come when you make a boom for a boom mic set up, that whenever your fingers move slightly on the boom shaft, you get a static sound. I have a boom set up that I normally use that I bought off of BH, and it is awesome, but I need another mic for a 2 camera shoot I am doing, and cant go out and buy a new boom pole. How do I make it so I the boom operator doesn't make that static sound. I've tried wearing rubber gloves, and putting foam on the boom, but still, even the slightest movement makes it static. Why does my carbon fiber one not get that sound when I twist my hands?

[Vladimir Eugene]

How come when you make a boom for a boom mic set up, that whenever your fingers move slightly on the boom shaft, you get a static sound. I have a boom set up that I normally use that I bought off of BH, and it is awesome, but I need another mic for a 2 camera shoot I am doing, and cant go out and buy a new boom pole. How do I make it so I the boom operator doesn't make that static sound. I've tried wearing rubber gloves, and putting foam on the boom, but still, even the slightest movement makes it static. Why does my carbon fiber one not get that sound when I twist my hands?

I'm not a sound man, but I had a similar experience. I don't believe it's the actual material of the poll, but the suspension holding the mic. wether you use to rubber bands that suspend the mic in the air. I used a golf ball retriever that extends up to 20 feet for 20 dollars, changed the screw on head, put some nice elastic on there. Another trick is to have them hold the position and swing thier arms, back or shoulders. if they don't change the grip, it should be ok

[Nathan Garofalos]

So just try to mimic my nice boom pole as best as possible, and ill be okay? And tell the guy doing the sound that he shouldn't move his hands?