RED narrative production issues- R&D priorities! [Archive]

morpheusfilm

11-23-2007, 12:45 AM

I've finally had the chance to go through the system and do tests and have been contemplating the realities of using the camera to shoot a feature. The following serious issues seem to be the most important things for me, as a professional DP to overcome and convince producers and directors that this is the system to use.
1) The most serious problem and top priority for me is to have the ability to use the on-board LCD while sending a signal at least to the director. The integrated LCD monitor is essential for focus assist and exposure /color/histograph/waveform info and to be forced to switch to an external on-board with none of these integrated functions just so the director can see something too, is a real problem. I can see that mounting the integrated as well as another monitor is the way to solve this, but it really is a clunky way of working and is a serious impedance to efficient on set work. This needs to be solved immediately and I'm not even going into the fact that there is no viewfinder enabled so the operator and the focus puller have to work off the same monitor. There are many situations in which the 1st AC must operate on the other side of the camera and then we have a real problem.
2) Sound- The camera is Goddamn loud. Even in quiet mode it is almost at a level that I can only call it an MOS camera. I don't know any sound man in LA that is not going to complain about this camera vigorously and openly, causing numerous political problems on set. The noise seems to be mostly coming from the left bottom side of the camera where the cards slot in. The card slot itself has a hole all around it that because there is no insulation the fan sound is emminating out of it big time. The drive also reverberates a lot. I will be forced to drape a frickin blimp on the camera every time I shoot a closeup of an actor. Could the RED folks at least put some sound insulating baffel or replace that drive cover with something that can help this issue. Also we all know that quiet mode is for shit when we will all be shooting next summer in 90 degree heat. The camera just shuts down. I would suggest making one of the user programable buttons capable of switching from normal to quiet mode so you could do so efficiently just before rolling.
3)Fix the poorly designed dovetale mounting plate. After two weeks of use the stock locking mounting plate is absolutely useless. It wobbles like the tower of Piza. Our camera has been converted to Arri dovetale but that causes problems with the Redcage configuration and makes coversion to hand held a real pain in the ass. Everything else in the system is so well engineered that this critical oversight is really embarassing.
4) Forget about the RED lenses. Yes they are cheap. The also suck beyond belief. We took one look at both the primes and the zoom and sent it all back. I haven't seen so much lense breathing since fucked up film school Angenieux 12-120's. I would respectfully suggest that the companies resources could be much better used in making the camera work fully to capacity as opposed to spending the 5+ years in R&D to make a good set of primes. No DP who has any real professional experience could possibly except those lenses of yours. Everyone is going to be using Zeiss glass or Cookes anyway. I repeat; FORGET ABOUT DEVELOPING A SET OF LENSES FOR NOW.
5) Ok- lower on the list but still damn important is playback. Yea I know, firmware upgrade in the future but what this means realistically on set is that we must rent an external HD deck to record the 720p signal so the director can have playback. Extra cost=producer's wonder 'Is it all worth it'. And yea, we could have a downconverter in the workflow to make it more cost effective for playback, but who the hell wants to look at a 640X480 version of 4k? It's like getting a massage in Bangkok without the happy finish.
6) Speed. Really dissapointing. 4K/60P? When oh when- 'cause I can already see that every damn action sequence I'll have to shoot will be in 2K. And then we have to match the 2k to 4k and I won't even go into the depth of field issue. You cannot use this camera to do stunts, fights, car action, pyro or anything else that requires slo mo. Did I say really disappointing?
7) 11.3 stops latitude. Again a real disappointment. I kept hearing 13 and that would have been really something. Because I have filter configurations that can gain another stop, but 11.3? I can get almost 11 with my varicam. Why oh why is it that nobody seems to recognize that this is the main failing of digital capture vs. film. Film has 16+ stops. Each and every stop is DOUBLE the amount of light and capability to render detail. Critical for highlights. It is the MAIN difference in the mediums and ONLY when digital can break the barrier of letting me shoot day exterior locations with no light attenuation will the medium become what I know will replace film. Every action sequence ranging over large day exterior areas basically means no lighting- car chases, running street sequences, run and gun actor follows, exterior steadicam, landscape establishing- all of it is uncontrolled and until you can get the damn sensors to get at least 13 stops, you're not even in the ball park. I loved the earlier posts suggesting Hi-dynamic range with dual capture using differing gamma curves. But alas speed, speed....
I want to say that yes I really like where it is going and I wholeheartedly support what the developers of RED are trying to achieve, I just wanted to lay out here the real world concerns I know will be the obstacles to get a prod. company to take the plunge into RED. And I wanted to set out what MY priorities would be for it's crucial initial development for use in feature film, which I believe is really the main use of this system.

Álex Montoya

11-23-2007, 01:15 AM

We took one look at both the primes and the zoom and sent it all back.

Have the primes been released?

Are you a troll?

Bruce Allen

11-23-2007, 01:26 AM

Morpheusfilm, this is more a "passionate constructive criticism" thread for a future RED TWO, right?

I'm just asking because it kinda sounded like you were upset because all of these things aren't in RED ONE?

For example, 4K / 60P would be awesome as heck but Red has always been very open on their website that that could only happen with a fast disk array. Which they (And others - Codex?) are working on. To do compressed 4K / 60P in high-quality Redcode in realtime would require the mother of all FPGA chips, which would make current heat / size / price considerations seem like a little game of tiddlywinks.

A lot of your points make a lot of sense... just why do you seem so angry? Are you just enthusiastic - did I misread you? Reduser seems so vicious these days, maybe it's all in my head?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

dino g

11-23-2007, 01:35 AM

WOW.

Interesting perspective. I have already worked with several very well known DOP's and they have a different take on the camera...

but i will try and address some of your concerns as an early serial number holder and someone whom has done a fair amount of "real world" work with the camera.

1. mounting the lcd with the red israeli and then one of many smaller lcd's with a loop out to video village will solve this problem, done this with great results on may shows thus far. not so clunky if you have the right equipment, rigging and attitude.

2. the camera you used must have a problem. we have shot sync sound on at least 10 shows without one problem, camera when rolling is QUIET, there must be a setting that is wrong, and or you were using the wrong build...more on that later. (i do recall one build that did have a problem with the fan, perhaps you were on that build.)

3. my dovetail works fine, go out and get some 19mm rods, and accessories and bag the arri mounting plate. every rental house in LA has 19mm accessories, they are just not used to using them. ask nice and they will dig them out.

4. rent cookes, master primes or ultra-primes...you will not be disappointed, i am certain that no one expects the RED lenses to perform like the aforementioned, rather they are for little johnny that is stepping up from his HVX or Z1U and wants to shoot without renting or selling his car.

5. PLAYBACK IS ENABLED IN Build 9, 1.5.1...AND IT WORKS FUCKEN GREAT MATE! We have had it since 11/02/07...21 days and bullet proof...you should download it and or pay attention to what is happening, again been out for three weeks!

6. the new daughterboard may address this...but until, the 2k 72fps works great and looks great.

7. academy award nominated dp's say it has that range just by shooting and looking at the redalert/redcine output...even better range than film in the shadows...so, maybe you need to do more tests or find a better scratch/color operator.

not trying to pick a fight, but not sure where you are coming from; this is not film, it is a great first attempt at approaching the film resolution and quality, on set work flow and post production work flow for INDEPENDENTS!!!! THAT CAN'T AFFORD 1,000,000 FEET OF FILM FOR THEIR FEATURES...

you got the duckets for a film camera, stock, processing, telecine, neg cutting, IN, IP, Prints, shipping, 5+ man camera dept....then this might not be the camera for you...if you dig the analogue sandwich, good luck with that, you will see less and less of that as time goes by, it is just a fact.

this is a DIGITAL CINEMA camera, made for the future workflow of an all digital acquisition, distribution and exhibition model. it will and is saving millions of dollars by staying all digital and will also help save the environment, if just a little bit.

in the past ten days i have been on two major shoots; multi-million dollar commercials and music videos where there were two 435 packages, master primes, 5+ member camera dept and little ole RED with just little ole ME and my IMAC...and after 8 hours, the fucken film cameras are in cases and the RED is shooting master shots!!!!

so not sure what world you are in, but RED is changing things, and you can fight it all you want, but at the end of the day, it is a business and just like there are very few 1979 lincoln continentals driving on the freeways because gas is 3.50 a gallon, there will be fewer and fewer film cameras going out on jobs as this camera gets out there, i have seen it happen first hand. one shoot 2 435's and one red, two weeks later, 3 reds...

good luck

p.s. a double carriage return works wonders when telling a story with letters...you should try it sometime.

p.s.s. LESSON ONE IN CONVINCING A PRODUCER TO USE RED.....SHOW HIM HOW MUCH MONEY HE/SHE WILL SAVE.

LINE 2004 RAW STOCK....0
LINE 3040 CAMERA LOADER....0
LINE 3122 CAMERA EXPENDABLES....0
LINE 5036 PROCESSING.....0
LINE 5039 TELECINE PREP....0
LINE 5044 TELECINE....0
LINE 5065 TAPE STOCK....0
LINE 6392 CARTAGE/COURIER FOR TAPES & STOCK TO LAB/EDIT....0
LINE 7002 ASSISTANT EDITOR FOR DIGITIZE.....0
LINE 7010 3 WEEKS EDIT BAY RENTAL FOR DIGITIZE....0
LINE 7233 NEGATIVE CUTTER....0
LINE 8221 INTER-NEGATIVE...0
LINE 8231 INTER-POSITIVE...0
LINE 8322 PRINTS....0

this could go on all night....DO THE MATH.

Bruce Allen

11-23-2007, 01:42 AM

EDIT: the above post covered it better... it wasn't there when I started this one ;) What's up, KOSMOS3D?!?

...breaking it down further:

1) I'm sure will be fixed in the future, since it was promised

2) may or may not be fixed. Can't you turn the fan totally off though? It may or may not be an issue with future cameras (circuits are constantly evolving - 2010's chips will generate less heat if asked to do the same thing that 2007's chips are doing, but maybe they'll be trying to do 4K / 240P RedCode and then you'll have a hot camera again in slow-mo circumstances - although for slow motion it won't matter so much - once you hit quiet operation at normal speeds you're all set ;)

3) maybe it'll be revised (they have already improved the PL mount)

4) Some of the issues you mentioned seem physically impossible - eg it's incredibly hard to make a small, light, close-focus zoom without breathing. On the other hand I agree about other issues of lens construction and wish Red had skewed their lenses in a more Zeiss / Cooke-like way - eg trade off size, weight and close-focus for less breathing, less play, etc.

5) I'm sure playback will happen soon.

6) 4K / 60P can't happen on REDCODE right now for reasons discussed above.

7) 11.3 stops was all that was promised. Some people (including me) thought it would be 11.3 "usable filmmaker's stops", not 11.3 "scientific, counting into the noise floor" stops, but hey, that was just wishful thinking. Certainly, that's enough for a lot of outdoor stuff with clever use of grads, filters, maybe a digicon, etc. Of course it'd be great if it improved. Red has mentioned putting in new circuitry with a lower noise floor, so maybe it will, a bit.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

dino g

11-23-2007, 01:50 AM

Just Representin Yo!!!! For My Peeps!

Radoslav Karapetkov

11-23-2007, 02:30 AM

Maybe film workflow still has some advantage... in some situations... But this advantage is so small [based on what I've seen\read\heard], and the price for it is so huge that it is not worth it... especially for indie-level productions...

And things will get better and better for RED and other digital cameras... unlike film, where no groundbreaking revolutions are expected...

The main problem with film is its price and also workflow difficulties... that's why it's doomed...

Film will die and so will RED ONE [meaning that there will be RED TWO and other developments in the future].

Cinema will live on...

My 2 cents.

Sanjin Jukic

11-23-2007, 03:03 AM

4) Forget about the RED lenses. Yes they are cheap. The also suck beyond belief. We took one look at both the primes and the zoom and sent it all back. I haven't seen so much lense breathing since fucked up film school Angenieux 12-120's. I would respectfully suggest that the companies resources could be much better used in making the camera work fully to capacity as opposed to spending the 5+ years in R&D to make a good set of primes. No DP who has any real professional experience could possibly except those lenses of yours. Everyone is going to be using Zeiss glass or Cookes anyway. I repeat; FORGET ABOUT DEVELOPING A SET OF LENSES FOR NOW.

But I would not forget it.

Still exists a perfect glass that is not commercially rehoused in cine lenes.

LEICA-R set of primes:

Wide angle lenses:

15 mm 1:2,8 LEICA SUPER-ELMARIT-R 15 mm f/2.8 ASPH.
19 mm 1:2,8 LEICA ELMARIT-R 19 mm f/2.8
28 mm 1:2,8 LEICA ELMARIT-R 28 mm f/2.8
28 mm 1:2,8 LEICA PC-SUPER-ANGULON-R 28 mm f/2.8
35 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 35 mm f/1.4
35 mm 1:2 LEICA SUMMICRON-R 35 mm f/2

Standard lenses:

50 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 50 mm f/1.4
50 mm 1:2 LEICA SUMMICRON-R 50 mm f/2

Telephoto lenses:

80 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 80 mm f/1.4
90 mm 1:2 LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-R 90 mm f/2 ASPH.
180 mm 1:2 LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-R 180 mm f/2
180 mm 1:2,8 LEICA APO-ELMARIT-R 180 mm f/2.8
280 mm 1:4 LEICA APO-TELYT-R 280 mm f/4

Macro lenses:

60 mm 1:2,8 LEICA MACRO-ELMARIT-R 60 mm f/2.8
100 mm 1:2,8 LEICA APO-MACRO-ELMARIT-R 100 mm f/2.8

Suprer telephoto lensess:

280-800 mm 1:5,9 LEICA APO-TELYT-R Module System

------------------------------------

Somebody would add that Panavision already did rehousing Leica for the Primo-L lens series (http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?maincat=1&cat=195&id=79&node=c0,c2,c21,c22,c23).

That's true but they did it with ELCAN (Ernst Leitz Canada) (http://www.elcan.com/ELCAN_News/SuccessFiles/commercialOEM_panavision.php) and also no piece of Panavision equipment is for sale.

But there are still Leica Camera AG in Solms, Germany (http://www.leica-camera.us/) and Leica Cinema GmbH in Zürich, Switzerland (http://www.easymonitoring.ch/handelsregister/leica_cinema_gmbh_859115.aspx).

So if RED is looking for a better glass in the future LEICA is the best way to go.

Cail Young

11-23-2007, 05:23 AM

You can, you just need the $6k fiber port and the $??k RAID fridge. The Mysterium runs at 60Hz, no?

Andrew M.

11-23-2007, 05:49 AM

Morpheusfilm, not bad as for 3-rd post of yours.
I see many contradictions in your post. Also you are not the owner of RED so you forgot to mention that you are buying apples and comparing to oranges.
If you scan the posts on this forum for tips and advice you could find many answers to your problems.
Your post sounds like typical DP that got used to the old type of ...., forgive me, the LEGACY equipment, and has trouble to figure out the new ways the industry is going to operate.

I guess you had brief encounter with the RED camera, one day?

Ask more questions here, spend more time shooting on RED and half of your show stoppers will be gone.

Stuart English

11-23-2007, 05:51 AM

Yes, 4K 60fps could be recorded to an external DDR device once you have the RAW PORT installed. For compressed RAW (i.e REDCODE), the current limits - as expressed on Build 9 v1.5.1 - are 4K to 25fps and 2K to 75fps. Things also change pretty quick around here with new firmware builds.

p.s. Its not possible to shoot with RED PRIMES, they are not released yet.

Graeme Nattress

11-23-2007, 06:04 AM

Film has 16+ stops. Let's just disagree on that one small point here. None of the published curves for any film stock that I've seen show remotely near 16 stops, never mind more.

Graeme

Graeme Nattress

11-23-2007, 06:07 AM

Good point Stuart. If anyone's on FXPHD, Mike did a very balanced review of the RED Lens there, that rather contradicts the above posters feelings about it.

Graeme

Fergus Meiklejohn

11-23-2007, 06:18 AM

this guy has got to be a troll (yawn..:watsup: )

Andrew M.

11-23-2007, 06:30 AM

I red two more posts of Morpheus, actually it is one double posted, and looks like Morpheus is obsessed with dynamic range. I like the fact that his post triggers discussion though. Morpheus, all what is posted in this thread was already posted on this forum few times but educating the new members always brings some new ideas.

Morpheus, there is many inconsistencies in your opinion that I attribute to the fact that you are new here and you didn't play with the camera long enough.

1) RED primes - where did you see it? I think primes are not released yet?

2) Dynamic range of the film – first, who is using more then 14 stops stock?
Are we taking scientific material used for special purposes, you are forgetting that before the original negative is shown on the screen in the theaters it is copied 3 or 4 times as oppose to the digital cinema that shows exactly 100% what you shoot.

3) Monitor output versus view finder output, where you have been when we discussed it extensively here.

4) Noisy fan on the camera, again, minimum 5 threads on this forum discussing it, where did you see film camera that is more quiet?

sander kamp

11-23-2007, 06:56 AM

Morpheus, apparently the dynamic range is good for people like Steven Soderbergh and Peter Jackson. What where you planning on shooting that it's not enough for you?

And next time you're in Bangkok try a real Thai massage - not a shady one, it's cheap and good for your health!

dino g

11-23-2007, 07:41 AM

having slept on this a bit i forgot to also mention one thing....1,000 foot loads are much "BULKIER" than a a small LCD...

not sure which 35mm camera you are talking about unless it's an IMO with a 100 footer, but that IS an MOS camera...

but i think by 18 posts you may actually get the fact that you are a bit outnumbered in your opinions and I agree that you may need a bit more time behind the wheel so to speak to further develop your understanding of RED's capabilities.

thanks for your post, it helped with the digestion of turkey and stopped me from eating more because i was furiously typing.

cheers

Paolo Tinari

11-23-2007, 09:39 AM

Actually is Pisa, not Piza, the tower. And it "wobbles" since august 1173...
Maybe you meant pizza, a tower of pizzas, but that would not wobble too, imho, cause of the cheese making a solid grip between the layers.

planet e

11-23-2007, 10:24 AM

the best part of morpheus' post is that it got dino to respond with more useable information for the rest of us...

as an independent producer, i'm mystified by the producers who enter this site, waving their egos and declaring their self-importance and vast experience. under the nose of the world's most humble billionaire, who treats his customers, from high-end home moviemaker to feature filmmaker, with equal respect.

no camera is going to be the only camera for every application or for every user. go shoot your film camera with cooke lenses, who cares? feed the swagger...

I Bloom

11-23-2007, 11:03 AM

Forget about the RED lenses. Yes they are cheap. They also suck beyond belief. We took one look at both the primes and the zoom and sent it all back.

It seems like no primes exist except the 300mm which I shot with some and was happy with. It compares favorably with a 300mm Canon PL mount I've used for 35mm. At some point I want to do some serious testing, but I was initially impressed.

All oppinions are valid Morpheus, but I think you should be more specific about the problems you encountered, and on which lenses you encountered them in order to be constructive.

i am certain that no one expects the RED lenses to perform like the aforementioned, rather they are for little johnny that is stepping up from his HVX or Z1U.

I think you may be wrong about the RED primes and about the people who are shooting with the HVX. Check the camera specs on some of the films at Sundance last year.

We are all just lucky that the RED lenses aren't priced in Euros.

IBloom

Siva Kollipara

11-23-2007, 11:54 AM

"Change" is the only constant word in this chaning world.

Dear morpheusfilm,
Though they are partiall valid points, you don't have to so avert to them, learn how to handle them.

RED is a company that openly accepts the constructive criticism, infact many of the features of RED ONE were suggested by members like you and me.

After few years, unless you are Academy Winner/ASC member, you no choice except to use RED, because it was already decided by your employer not you.

Ever heard of joke "Death by Bunga Bunga" ..? choice is yours.

A quote from 300 "choose your words carefully, they may be your last words as 'cinematographer'".

morpheusfilm

11-23-2007, 01:11 PM

Your post sounds like typical DP that got used to the old type of ...., forgive me, the LEGACY equipment, and has trouble to figure out the new ways the industry is going to operate.
I've been shooting HD for years but I wasn't posting to make some personal attack on the RED as much as evaluating the camera from a real production standpoint, and attempting to explain what I believe are the highest fix priorities. I actually tech for this camera and go out with it from a rental house. We have the latest version firmware build and the playback crashes the camera as many times as it works. There still is no way for the propriatory onboard LCD to work while simultaneously you send a signal to the director- Yes there is a work around that involves mounting a second external on board connected to the HD SDI port, and then you can send the other hdsdi or preview signal to the director but what about the focus assist? You can't use it if you want to send a signal anywhere else. You end up having to switch back and forth in the menu from RED LCD to the HDSDI ports constantly, and carry two on boards if you want to do it fast, which you will need to do. And quiet mode is still bad if you are under 8 ft from your subject as far as sound goes, plus when the camera heats up and you are in a warm environment, the camera shuts down. This has happened several times on set and involved another 5 minute delay while the camera re-boots, with everyone standing around waiting for camera. But hey, take it as me just grinding an axe if you wish but I certainly know that these limitations are real problems with high stress production situations.

morpheusfilm

11-23-2007, 01:18 PM

And yes it was the 300mm and the zoom.

morpheusfilm

11-23-2007, 01:34 PM

Let's just disagree on that one small point here. None of the published curves for any film stock that I've seen show remotely near 16 stops, never mind more.

Graeme
Try doing the grey card test with Kodak stock 50D #5201 and will find just how many more stops film has. And again I would point out that each stop is DOUBLE the amount of light so even the difference between 11.3 and the 14 which you suggest is significant enough to make a difference, especially when the RED currently has no way to skew the gamma curve to have more lattitude in the highlights than in the shadows. Sure you can underexpose but then overall contrast is effected and you have to tweek all the client/directors monitors so that they won't be worried by your purposeful underexposure. RAW is pretty nice and simple though. It would just be nice to move the gamma midpoint to either favor the shadows or favor the highlights. This is how you would get the best from DAY EXT. and NIGHT INT.

Floris Liesker

11-23-2007, 01:45 PM

Try doing the grey card test with Kodak stock 50D #5201 and will find just how many more stops film has. And again I would point out that each stop is DOUBLE the amount of light so even the difference between 11.3 and the 14 which you suggest is significant enough to make a difference...

I don't think you need to teach Graeme what a stop exactly is.
Anyway, he didn't say 14 stops, he said 13.3 of which 8.3 is linear.
A lot of stock would have considerably less DR than that though.

Kodak themselves show only 11 stops of DR in their graph of 50D 5201.
http://www.kodak.com/global/images/en/motion/products/negative/5201_char2.gif

dino g

11-23-2007, 01:49 PM

i guess some cameras work better than others, mine has never ever crashed on playback and i have used it constantly since 9/7/07 and playback since 11/2.

camera reboots in 90 seconds...not sure where you get 5 minutes. and the newest firmware yet to be released, or so i have heard, cuts that time to a lower number.

and high stress comes from poor planning, no it is not your fault, but read my post to new owners...it is imperative that anyone whom rents the camera or owns the camera to understand the nature of the camera at this time and along the way, nobody promised anyone a finished product, in fact jim clearly states that it may never be finished.

good luck and use those carriage returns it helps break down individual ideas into digestible chunks.

Graeme Nattress

11-23-2007, 03:51 PM

We use stops because that adequate reflects the right proportion of how the light sensing dynamic range feels to our eyes. To say each stop is double the light is right, but our perception to light is non linear, so talking in stops with 14 just being one more stop than 13 gives the right feel to the numbers. To say that extra stop is DOUBLE (and it must be in caps) the light, is misleading as every stop is double. One stop is not different to the rest.

To say: "RED currently has no way to skew the gamma curve to have more lattitude in the highlights than in the shadows" is not just false and misleading, it shows that you really don't understand dynamic range, image sensors or how the RED is working. And of course, because the sensor is linear, unlike with film, under or over exposure doesn't effect contrast as you're not putting different parts of the tonal range on a curve.

As pointed out, the film curves don't show that much dynamic range. You'd think that if that stock was oh-so-superior, it's creators would show greater range in the curves that they use to advertise it with.....

Graeme

Babu Kantamneni

11-23-2007, 04:09 PM

Sometimes frustration and pointing fingers will help learning and I think I am.

Bruce Allen

11-23-2007, 04:15 PM

To say: "RED currently has no way to skew the gamma curve to have more lattitude in the highlights than in the shadows" is not just false and misleading, it shows that you really don't understand dynamic range, image sensors or how the RED is working.

Very true, Graeme!

As pointed out, the film curves don't show that much dynamic range. You'd think that if that stock was oh-so-superior, it's creators would show greater range in the curves that they use to advertise it with.....

I think that the film stock folks might be more conservative in their graphs?

The only way to tell is for someone to do a side-by-side with film and Red.

Problem is, once you get hold a Red for a day you don't exactly feel like sitting around and doing test charts! What a waste of such a beautiful thing! And especially if you had to get a film camera, pay for scanning, etc. That's quite a packet of cash that I'd much rather spend shooting something ;)

But if someone does do it, let's hope they do it properly. Eg not just monochrome stouffer wedges and resolution charts... but put colored gels on it, test the limits of color resolution, etc. similar to what they did in this test of still cameras:
http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/

If I have to consider shooting bluescreen instead of greenscreen, I'd want to know how much resolution would be lost, etc.

I think the Red will win in the price/performance category hands-down, and will very likely be superior to film for shooting greenscreen plates, etc, and not far behind film for general shooting at standard speed. For something like high-speed photography of blondes against bluescreen (where Red would be 2K windowed and not have the Bayer green advantage), _maybe_ film or a F23 would make more sense, but those have their blue channel issues too.

Anyone want to do a decent test? Maybe in a few months when Red has released their new lower-noise circuits and they've had a bit of breathing-room to tweak their algorithms?

Then there would be no need for all of these weird discussions. Although I think everyone secretly enjoys them ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Graeme Nattress

11-23-2007, 04:25 PM

There's not perfect camera or technology. All we can do, is use our best thinking to come up with the best compromises and balance of features.

Monochrome tests are good as they can show you what's going on, in general. I've used colour tests too, to get more of a picture of what's happening. Resolution isn't all that makes up the picture - you could have high resolution of nasty looking pixels and not be happy. I also like zone plates to look for aliasing issues and for a much better way to measure resolution than a standard resolution chart too.

But really, what it comes down to, is the "whole" picture. That means looking at the whole thing, through a full pipeline and output as a finished product. The geeky techy stuff can help you get the best out of the finished product, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And to me, to have 4 to 5 mins of lovely looking 4k on a CF card I can get quickly onto my computer and begin working with is as important as the image itself.

Graeme

Bruce Allen

11-23-2007, 04:49 PM

Wholeheartedly agree with you, Graeme. And as CF card sizes increase and prices decrease, easy Avid workflows etc pop up, the advantage just increases.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

morpheusfilm

11-23-2007, 05:07 PM

I don't think you need to teach Graeme what a stop exactly is.
Anyway, he didn't say 14 stops, he said 13.3 of which 8.3 is linear.
A lot of stock would have considerably less DR than that though.

Kodak themselves show only 11 stops of DR in their graph of 50D 5201.
http://www.kodak.com/global/images/en/motion/products/negative/5201_char2.gif
Kodak shows -7 stops in underexposure and plus 6 in overexposure. 7+6 = 13 stops total but you will notice that in the overexposure section, the graph simply stops and is cut off, not showing the actual gradual tapering of how the film actually continues to react. It has a curved edge just like the shadows but they don't publish it because they don't want to guarantee it as filtration and lenses affect this out point, as well as processing. Overexposure and underdevelopment (zone system techniques) can actually alter this entire curve gaining you several stops, something Ansel Adams discovered and used to his great advantage.

Graeme Nattress

11-23-2007, 05:30 PM

Kodak already disclaimer the graph so to further remove a portion is very strange. I think you misreprent the zone system though. The printing process cannot increase the DR over that which was recorded. You can print it so as to help the viewer see the recorded DR at it's best but not actually improve it. On the chart, although graph extends far to the left, the actual point of no more shadow detail is where it goes flat, not beyond.

morpheusfilm

11-23-2007, 05:56 PM

To say: "RED currently has no way to skew the gamma curve to have more lattitude in the highlights than in the shadows" is not just false and misleading, it shows that you really don't understand dynamic range, image sensors or how the RED is working. And of course, because the sensor is linear, unlike with film, under or over exposure doesn't effect contrast as you're not putting different parts of the tonal range on a curve.
Graeme[/QUOTE]
I understand exactly that the sensor is linear and in fact does not have the gamma curve configuration of the f900 or varicam. What I'm suggesting is that this is perhaps a flaw since the camera is definitely showing it's midpoint to be closer to the highlight end of the scale. That means the median 0 point (properly exposed skin tones) falls closer to the highlights which means there are more stops latitude in the shadows than in the highlights. Of course you can just change the exposure and effectively shift the entire linear scale to a better zone where highlights will be best recorded but then skin tones will be darker. I've been through this extensively with the Varicam, which basically when you switch the Panasonic monitor to "Film Gamma" it essentially corrects not what goes down to tape but just what appears on the monitor so that the director/prod. can feel safe. Of course I know this is in fact the best way to work the camera- have you ever seen the RAW files out of the Panavision Genesis? Flat and with skin tones 2/3 to a stop down. That's exactly where you want to be with a RAW type configuration.
Problem is that on set, directors and producers get nervous. A friend of mine who is shooting ABC's "Brothers and Sisters" originally was going to use the Genesis, but because the ideal raw files (in fact you can't mess with the genesis either) looked the way they did in uncorrected post, and because the producers just didn't understand what they were looking at, and because they couldn't slow production down to a pace that would allow an on-set DIT to tweek every set up, they canned the Genesis and went for 35mm. I guess I got used to the versitality of the Varicam and being able to call where that 0 mid point was going to fall. I could give it 6 stops in the highlights and 4 1/2 to the shadows for day exterior and then for night ext. split the scale exactly opposite. Having presets that can load in a camera quickly is usually a lot faster than skewing the directors/clients/editors monitor between locations. But hey, maybe my 20 years of experience, the half dozen HD features I've shot and my degree in cinematography from Brooks Institute really doesn't put me on the map with you guys as someone who may have a thing or two to say of interest. Everyone seems so involved in defending the system- STOP - It's not necessary, I'm already sold and know that the camera is going to change the whole face of film making. If you guys read the title of this post it is; "R&D Priorities" and that's because I'd like to see the camera shine on set and sure - take over the world- as soon as possible. But there are some serious shortcomings and I don't see a problem with discussing what needs to be fixed first, and what second and so forth for the system to gain the reputation that it will deserve.

morpheusfilm

11-23-2007, 06:07 PM

I think you misreprent the zone system though. The printing process cannot increase the DR over that which was recorded. You can print it so as to help the viewer see the recorded DR at it's best but not actually improve it. On the chart, although graph extends far to the left, the actual point of no more shadow detail is where it goes flat, not beyond.
Exposing the negative and processing it has nothing to do with printing. Of course you cannot improve the DR in printing, but you certainly can improve the DR by overexposing the negative and then underdevelopinng it in a cooler temp chemistry and for a longer time. You are essentially lowering the ASA rating of the film but taking advantage of the higher DR built into the emulsion. The thing is Kodak of course pushes the ASA rating to the limit usually of what the film can possibly do while retaining acceptable DR range. This is less important in a low speed stock. And the graph you looked at yes- on the left side it is the shadows and it goes flat, but I was commenting on the right side where you see the graphed response simply ends. There is more there in the highlights, a lot more in fact.

dino g

11-23-2007, 06:36 PM

shot 8 toyota spots w my camera at brooks three weeks ago and everyone loved it and praised it....

the senior gaffer; an older asian gentlemen, was very impressed w the range, look, workflow et. al,

dont forget sound and story...picture is not everything in story telling.

onset at brooks...with gaffer in view...

David Mullen ASC

11-23-2007, 07:36 PM

Technically the Panavision Genesis does not shoot & record "RAW" files (RAW referring to a Bayer-filtered image that has not gone color-processing to become RGB), it converts the signal from its RGB striped sensor into RGB and records it as 10-bit 4:4:4 1080P HD video, with a LOG gamma curve (Panalog).

And Panavision has a LUT box so that the LOG image is gamma corrected for viewing on a monitor in REC 709 color space.

dino g

11-23-2007, 08:01 PM

i love it when you talk dirty like that...

Tonaci Tran

11-23-2007, 08:12 PM

Hi there,

Constructive criticism is cool but why do you have to be so angry and pissed about it?

"This needs to be solved immediately"
The camera is Goddamn loud.
FORGET ABOUT DEVELOPING A SET OF LENSES FOR NOW.
You cannot use this camera to do stunts, fights, car action, pyro or anything else that requires slo mo. Did I say really disappointing?
11.3 stops latitude. Again a real disappointment

For someone who is so unhappy about this camera, I would recommend that you simply use another camera. I recall all of the skepticism surrounding the camera before it came out. It didn't surprise me..however, I never expected such resentment towards a 17,500 4k camera. What other 4k digital cameras are there? and how much do they cost? No one is forcing you to use it. I'm sorry but your rants complete ignore the fact that there is really NO OTHER CAMERA comparable in price/features/performance. You might as well complain that RED should have made an 8k camera. The work is not done yet..and RED will continually improve and enable more and more features. Everyone at RED is working around the clock. Demanding everything to be enabled right now is just unrealistic.

sander kamp

11-23-2007, 09:51 PM

Tonaci Tran

11-23-2007, 10:26 PM

I agree with everybody that Morpheus tone makes it hard for us to exactly understand his position but the point might just be that this could happen to ANYBODY who picks up the camera without going through these boards everyday and without direct access to technical support from someone from RED. How brilliantly the camera was designed and how great value for money it is, at the moment it still a technical challenge to work with and we have to give Morpheus some credit for pointing that out. I am trying to imagine myself on a set with fifty people all waiting for me to load different firmware that might or might not solve a problem :waaa:

Also the fact that not all cameras seem to respond to new firmware in the same way worries me a bit. How are new camera owners supposed to find out whether there problem is unique?

I hate the waiting game but it might be a good thing that RED is not shipping new cameras until certain things are worked out.

"it still a technical challenge to work with and we have to give Morpheus some credit for pointing that out."
"this could happen to ANYBODY who picks up the camera without going through these boards everyday "

Morpheus points out really nothing new. You don't need to read these boards everyday to know the firmware progress. The software feature issues he has pointed out are noted in Red.com's suppport section which lists everything thoroughly:
http://www.red.com/support/release_history/4
Most of his rants are already solved, playback/fan noise, or at least will come in due time.

"at the moment it still a technical challenge to work with "
Yes, but look at what has been accomplished thus far with this camera. Feature films, music videos, commercials already completed. I worked 3 weeks straight with RED on an independent feature film (5 weeks total) that just wrapped, and though issues came up, we were able to work through them. You have some choices: wait until the camera matures more to your liking, complain/use another camera, or venture where few have gone before and rise to the occasion..the choice is up to you.

dino g

11-23-2007, 10:37 PM

at the moment it still a technical challenge to work with and we have to give Morpheus some credit for pointing that out.

Also the fact that not all cameras seem to respond to new firmware in the same way worries me a bit. How are new camera owners supposed to find out whether there problem is unique??

It is not a technical challenge to use this camera. he gets no credit for pointing out something that is just not true!

here are the steps....simple simple simple

plug in the battery cable
plug in the monitor cable
plug in the monitor cable to the monitor
load a battery on the shoe
turn on the camera with the power on button (90 seconds)
set your project config (4k, 2k, 4k2:1)
set frame rate
load cf card
format cf card (8 seconds)
set shutter, asa, color temp and f-stop
press the red button
NOW YOU ARE SHOOTING
press the red button again....
STOP Shooting.

repeat until card is full
unmount card
load into your computer
drop qt proxy into fcp
cut your show.

do not load new firmware during a shoot...it is that simple.

load your firmware the day or night before and spend a few hours testing it and learning about it. it is just common sense stuff, it is by design not that complicated. this is how you test whether or not your camera works with the firmware.

finally, if your camera does not work properly...BRING IT BACK!!!!

they want you to be happy, they really really do and will do anything and everything to make sure you are. (period)

Tonaci Tran

11-23-2007, 10:39 PM

sander kamp

11-23-2007, 11:11 PM

I haven't seen or worked with the camera. I just (im)patiently waiting on the other side of the world and reading everything there is on the internet. It's hard for me to see from this distance what's true or not true. I think people who have problems with the camera have the right to complain, but then again they should not complain about problems that are avoidable or even fixed already.

Anyway, just give me my camera and I'll be happy to find out myself. I live in a country that would fall apart without adhesive tape and rubber bands and people would probably freak out about a camera without any problems :)

I just wonder: should I warn possible clients that some problems are to be expected? In the sense that it is a new system and still being worked and such? Or is there a possible workflow that just works?

dino g

11-23-2007, 11:21 PM

no need to warn, in my humble opinion. if you learn your camera you will be fine, the camera works great. again, i have posted many play by plays of recent jobs, two days ago an 18 hour day 45 cards used not 1 problem, not 1...clients, dp, director, artist all very very very happy.

get your camera and use it for a week, then go big....

sander kamp

11-23-2007, 11:30 PM

morpheusfilm

11-24-2007, 12:25 AM

Morpheus, I have a couple questions for you:

"We took one look at both the primes and the zoom and sent it all back."

What primes are you talking about? There are only two RED lenses available. Your statement suggests you worked with 3 red lenses.

"The drive also reverberates a lot"
What drive are you talking about? RED drives have not been released yet.
Didn't work with multiple primes. I'm talking about the 300 mm and the zoom offered right now.
The 300 mm breathed terribly and if you can not get a tele lense to not breathe then please don't even attempt a wide angle. The problem with optical physics design involved with breathing on a tele vs. a wide prime are quite different and if the optical designers at RED can't get even get a 300mm to play nice then the likelyhood of them getting an 18mm to work correctly are slim to none. I won't even go into the travesty that is the zoom lense they offer. That is why I again say; FORGET DEVELOPMENT OF A PRIME LENS SET AND FOCUS THE COMPANIES RESOURCES ON MAKING THE CAMERA WORK TO FULL PROMISED CAPACITY. No DP worth his salt is going to waste his time with lenses other that the Zeiss Ultra's, Master's or the Cooke S4's.
The drive I speak of is the RAM buffer which ramps up with the fan to ensure the information sent to the card slot is secure and regularized. Put your ear to the left bottom rear of the camera next to the square cowling that encases the card slot. It is really loud especially in "Normal" mode. And unfortunately, if you plan to shoot in LA in the summer, Normal mode is the only mode to shoot in to insure that the camera doesn't shut itself off. We are in winter time now, but summer is coming and a camera that can't be silent in 90 degree heat is not going to cut the mustard. Period. And please, will you people stop with your asignations and pronouncements upon my view of this camera system. I love the system and the potentialities it represents. I know that it will most likely change the face of film making. I say High5 to kicking ass on Sony and Panasonic and JVC and all the other crappy corporations that want to string us out with small increments of new technology and then make us pay through the nose. But if the RED is going to take over the field of digitally captured narrative cinema, then they have some basic problems to solve so a DP won't be embarassed on set and have to make excuses for the limitations of the medium he has chosen, layed his reputation on the line, and diplomatically talked the producers into embracing.

morpheusfilm

11-24-2007, 12:37 AM

And one more thing- I have been watching these boards and listening to the development for the last two years, PSS - Trolls are people too.

dino g

11-24-2007, 12:52 AM

The DOP's that have used my camera in the last 2 1/2 months are HEROES to their directors and producers for recommending the camera. the time is now, the development is passed the point of what ifs and maybes....it is a reality and high end people are very very happy, not sure why you insist on bringing up negatives that quite frankly do not exist and in a very real way have the potential of scaring people (producers and directors) away from the systems that works great NOW.

i feel bad for you that you had a camera that did not work properly. and it is amazing what can be done with air conditioning these days, not to mention simple $2 ice packs and $10 fans.

Tonaci Tran

11-24-2007, 01:30 AM

Jim has offered owners the option of waiting until all the features are enabled before taking delivery of their camera, likewise, no one is forcing you to use this camera now. If the features that you want are not enabled then it looks like you will simply have to wait. Your responses are so punitive as if to suggest that RED is slacking and not prioritizing. They have released a working camera that has been capable of shooting full length features, music videos and commercials.

There have been target dates for enabling of features, but RED has never made ANY promises in regards as to when ALL features will be enabled. In fact, Jim has pointed out that we will continually receive improvements to the camera.

Since you have stated you have been following development how is that you can't understand there is just so much a relatively small team can accomplish in such a short timespan?

sander kamp

11-24-2007, 01:48 AM

Of course I don't know but it seems unlikely to me that RED is developing their own lenses in house. The last thing I heard they are a small team of 25-ish people and hard at work making a camera. They probably outsourced the lenses or they buy them from someone else and with the potential of selling thousands of them they get a nice discount. Some have even suggested they come from Cooke since they have the same interface to connect to the camera.

But why the bold words and calling the zoom lens 'a travesty'? Are you really suggesting nobody should buy these lenses?

Álex Montoya

11-24-2007, 02:31 AM

Someone stated he was sure that RED lenses were re-housed Sigmas. Only sure thing is that they don't do them in-house. It has been stated several times.

And I find funny that he states that there's "no way to skew" exposure to take full adventadge (sp?) of RED's dynamic range and afterwards he explains that it can, in fact, be done: what he meant is that producers can get nervous looking at the monitor. LOL.

I Bloom

11-24-2007, 03:50 AM

This thread doesn't belong in General Cinematography. IMHO

Graeme Nattress

11-24-2007, 05:52 AM

I understand exactly that the sensor is linear and in fact does not have the gamma curve configuration of the f900 or varicam. What I'm suggesting is that this is perhaps a flaw since the camera is definitely showing it's midpoint to be closer to the highlight end of the scale.

You see, that's exactly what I mean! There's a vast difference between a camcorder recording a processed YCbCr or RGB image in 8 (or 10) bit range, and a camera that's recording raw 12bit sensor data. You can't use knowledge from the former on the latter as how they work is fundamentally different.

The sensor in the F900 and Varicam will be linear too. That data then gets processed and curves put on it to get into a form recordable by video technology. That's why altering said curves can get you more or less DR on tape.

We don't do that because we don't need to make you make any decisions like that while recording that could come to bite you back later on. RAW is RAW is RAW. Yes, it's "compressed", but it's still RAW and still (always) carries the full DR that the sensor can produce (no matter what you tweak on the visual look).

As for the visual look through the LCD or EVF while shooting, there are numerous on-board controls that allow you to alter the "developing" curve (the curve that develops the raw linear image to a viewable image) in such a way as to render it "pretty" for the crew to watch.

So yes, as much as we need good feedback from users, we need that feedback to a) make sense, b) be educated by an understanding of what we're doing and c) not be written in the format that makes us think someone is trolling. We're all very approachable people here, and I've had numerous tech discussions with all kinds of people wanting to learn how the image processing flow works, and how they can get the best out of it. If you want to join in that discussion, talk about the subject, pass on information and generally join in the general education of all that goes on here, then we're all happy to talk.

Graeme

Adrian T.

11-24-2007, 07:13 AM

Put your ear to the left bottom rear of the camera next to the square cowling that encases the card slot. It is really loud especially in "Normal" mode. And unfortunately, if you plan to shoot in LA in the summer, Normal mode is the only mode to shoot in to insure that the camera doesn't shut itself off. We are in winter time now, but summer is coming and a camera that can't be silent in 90 degree heat is not going to cut the mustard. Period.

Can't you see that nobody else is complaining about this? That can only mean that there was something wrong with your particular camera. Get it serviced!

And please press your enter key once in a while. Your posts are hard to read - not only for their content.

Stuart English

11-24-2007, 07:22 AM

The drive I speak of is the RAM buffer which ramps up with the fan to ensure the information sent to the card slot is secure and regularized. Put your ear to the left bottom rear of the camera next to the square cowling that encases the card slot. It is really loud especially in "Normal" mode. And unfortunately, if you plan to shoot in LA in the summer, Normal mode is the only mode to shoot in to insure that the camera doesn't shut itself off. We are in winter time now, but summer is coming and a camera that can't be silent in 90 degree heat is not going to cut the mustard.

There isn't a RAM buffer Morpheus, if you hear anything ramping up it is the fan. What operators will probably want to be using in wintertime is the new VARIABLE fan setting that we have started to alpha test (beta test firmware will be available in a few days). That mode keeps the camera pretty much silent in both preview and record modes when the ambient temperatures is 10C/50 F or below. As for Summer in LA, the first feature film shot on RED was in Spain in an ambient of 100F+, here the dual speed concept - higher fan speed during preview, slower during record works well. You will have to be the judge though if its quiet enough on set for your specific application.

planet e

11-24-2007, 08:12 AM

I won't even go into the travesty that is the zoom lense they offer. That is why I again say; FORGET DEVELOPMENT OF A PRIME LENS SET AND FOCUS THE COMPANIES RESOURCES ON MAKING THE CAMERA WORK TO FULL PROMISED CAPACITY. No DP worth his salt is going to waste his time with lenses other that the Zeiss Ultra's, Master's or the Cooke S4's.

what part of "then don't use them" don't you understand? RED never claimed to make the best cine lenses, only the best cine lenses at an affordable price point. they are bringing this technology to a broad range of users, and affordability and accessibility are core to their mission. if you can afford better lenses, then you should *use* better lenses.

glad we have that problem solved. next!

Mark Crabtree

11-24-2007, 08:50 AM

As Red owners/users we are all riding together in a lifeboat. You are in the boat if you have a camera in your hands now and are able to post first hand experience, but be careful what you post! These posts will be printed and proclaimed by Red naysayers and Red enemies (Sony, Panasonic, Arri) as proof that Red is not the right choice. How many times does Jim have to say that this camera is still being developed? We have it in our hands now so we can get started with our projects and help in the developement. Most of the people using the camera right now are greatful as hell to have it and are producing exceptional work. If you want to express scathing criticisms I suggest you call Red on the phone or send them an email. Tone on this forum is important because we are working with this camera right now and do not want our clients spooked. If you want to push yourself out of the boat don't take the rest of us with you.

Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock

11-24-2007, 09:03 AM

Well, as somebody who plans to shoot classical concerts, he has me worried.

Jochen

Tonaci Tran

11-24-2007, 09:04 AM

There isn't a RAM buffer Morpheus, if you hear anything ramping up it is the fan. What operators will probably want to be using in wintertime is the new VARIABLE fan setting that we have started to alpha test (beta test firmware will be available in a few days). That mode keeps the camera pretty much silent in both preview and record modes when the ambient temperatures is 10C/50 F or below. As for Summer in LA, the first feature film shot on RED was in Spain in an ambient of 100F+, here the dual speed concept - higher fan speed during preview, slower during record works well. You will have to be the judge though if its quiet enough on set for your specific application.

Thanks for clearing that one up. I didn't have a RED on hand to verify his drive noise claim.

Sam Druckerman

11-24-2007, 04:18 PM

Well, as somebody who plans to shoot classical concerts, he has me worried.

Jochen

Don't be!!

I am a former musician, music teacher, and someone who still owns a 32 track music recording system. And........

My RED camera when in record mode is the quietest camera I've ever used.

This thread serves as a example of what can happen when one persons opinion or experience is givin Way to much weight.

I resisted replying to this thread because I don't like to participate in discussions with new posters who seem angry and haven't done there homework....

May I suggest we all move on.

Adrian T.

11-24-2007, 04:42 PM

I am a former musician, music teacher, and someone who still owns a 32 track music recording system. And........

My RED camera when in record mode is the quietest camera I've ever used.

Sam, thanks for putting us at ease!

This thread serves as a example of what can happen when one persons opinion or experience is givin Way to much weight.

I resisted replying to this thread because I don't like to participate in discussions with new posters who seem angry and haven't done there homework....

May I suggest we all move on.

Wise words! :watsup:

Steve Sherrick

11-24-2007, 10:42 PM

Sam, is it quieter than those Firestore drives on P2 shoots? Some of those have been unacceptable when the camera is within 5-10 feet of the microphone. I define quiet as being able to interview someone who is soft spoken and never hear the camera, drives, or any of it. If I'm able to gain up to get the interview and the camera or drives stay far down in the noise floor, then I'm happy. Sounds like that is the case with the Red and that is good to know. My only question for you guys with cameras:

Have you been doing a lot of audio recording? At this point, the only way is via double system. I do wonder about the people who are planning on putting a mic on top of their Red. Wonder how much noise will be picked up. I was hoping to see some sound tests come out of LART but not sure that is going to happen.

Anyway, thanks for the reports guys. If Morpheus is being straight with us (and I have no evidence he isn't, so I'll just assume he is) then some of his views are interesting, in particular the noise issue and lens critique. But they don't seem to match the comments by a lot of other people with cameras. Hmmm...

Steve

Sam Druckerman

11-25-2007, 12:53 AM

But they don't seem to match the comments by a lot of other people with cameras. Hmmm...

Steve

Hi Steve,

I believe you answered your own question, but....

PM sent.

dino g

11-25-2007, 01:29 AM

we have done 4 jobs where sound was very important.

we used a deneke tri-sync box attached to the camera and plugged into the timecode port via a 5 pin lemo.

there were professional sound mixers on set and they never complained about the camera level.

one set of spots (8) were for a toyota dealership and it was all testimonials, so the whole shoot was very audio intensive.

another 20 spots we did for FX network featuring tangueray also with the same sound mixer all had important tag lines which were in most cases more important than the visuals. again no problem with the fan noise or camera.

in my experience a professional set with 30+ crew members and lots of lights and other gear tends to have a sound level around that of a low rumble, even when everyone is perfectly quiet.

that said, i have not shot a two man crew interview documentary style in a small 10 x 10 room, in that case there may be some issues, but then again, i test the camera often in my home office and when the camera shoots it goes very quiet...

maybe i will take out a sound mixer and put a mic on the camera and see what the levels are coming off the camera...give me a couple of days as the holidays and company will keep me from sequestering myself for such an endeavor.

Mick van Rossum, NSC

11-25-2007, 08:23 AM

But I would not forget it.

Still exists a perfect glass that is not commercially rehoused in cine lenes.

LEICA-R set of primes:

Wide angle lenses:

15 mm 1:2,8 LEICA SUPER-ELMARIT-R 15 mm f/2.8 ASPH.
19 mm 1:2,8 LEICA ELMARIT-R 19 mm f/2.8
28 mm 1:2,8 LEICA ELMARIT-R 28 mm f/2.8
28 mm 1:2,8 LEICA PC-SUPER-ANGULON-R 28 mm f/2.8
35 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 35 mm f/1.4
35 mm 1:2 LEICA SUMMICRON-R 35 mm f/2

Standard lenses:

50 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 50 mm f/1.4
50 mm 1:2 LEICA SUMMICRON-R 50 mm f/2

Telephoto lenses:

80 mm 1:1,4 LEICA SUMMILUX-R 80 mm f/1.4
90 mm 1:2 LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-R 90 mm f/2 ASPH.
180 mm 1:2 LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-R 180 mm f/2
180 mm 1:2,8 LEICA APO-ELMARIT-R 180 mm f/2.8
280 mm 1:4 LEICA APO-TELYT-R 280 mm f/4

Macro lenses:

60 mm 1:2,8 LEICA MACRO-ELMARIT-R 60 mm f/2.8
100 mm 1:2,8 LEICA APO-MACRO-ELMARIT-R 100 mm f/2.8

Suprer telephoto lensess:

280-800 mm 1:5,9 LEICA APO-TELYT-R Module System

------------------------------------

Somebody would add that Panavision already did rehousing Leica for the Primo-L lens series (http://www.panavision.com/product_detail.php?maincat=1&cat=195&id=79&node=c0,c2,c21,c22,c23).

That's true but they did it with ELCAN (Ernst Leitz Canada) (http://www.elcan.com/ELCAN_News/SuccessFiles/commercialOEM_panavision.php) and also no piece of Panavision equipment is for sale.

But there are still Leica Camera AG in Solms, Germany (http://www.leica-camera.us/) and Leica Cinema GmbH in Zürich, Switzerland (http://www.easymonitoring.ch/handelsregister/leica_cinema_gmbh_859115.aspx).

So if RED is looking for a better glass in the future LEICA is the best way to go.

Sanjin,

In Holland there is a set of rehoused Leica lenses for rent, but apparently nobody rents them because people think they are to harsh. It consists of a 15/19/24/35/50/75/100 macro and 135. They were rehoused by Vandiemen optics when he was still active. Nice mechanics though.....
Maybe you should make them an offer....