Nikon vs Canon - Birger Lens Mount

[Billy McCannon]

I own neither Nikon nor Canon lenses so I’m not compelled by previous investment or brand loyalty to opt for either. I had a slight bias toward Nikon which was the obvious choice before the Birger Lens Mount became a possible alternative, but now Canon seems to be a no-brainer.

The offer of a free remote control is focusing my mind on a decision.

The time lag between the release of the Canon and Nikon favours Canon as does the fact that Birger has experience with Canon.

The overwhelming factor in Canon’s favour is that Canon EF & EF-S mount will offer a much greater choice of lenses with electronic iris & focus control?

Nikon offers a full range of primes with manual focus but the AF-S range offers no prime lenses under 105mm, which limits that system to the use of zooms and teles.

Is there a case for Nikon?

[jaadgy akanni]

Nikon's AF-S zooms are great lenses, which I'll use as variable primes as well. I have on order, the new AF-S 14-24mm f/2.8 and AF-S 24-70mm f/2.8 full-frame lenses. I've already read some excellent reviews on the 24-70mm. Together with my AF-S 70-200mm f/2.8 these'll make a formidable team. I'll also get the (dumb) Nikon mount by RED for use with my manual Nikon primes. I'm partial to Nikon 'cause I prefer its aesthetics to that from canon glass. Canon glass is great too, but not to my liking. To each his own.

[albert rudnicki]

If you decide to go and use manual controls on the lens or Birger mount brakes( i know it will not:); you may find your self in a very bad situation.
I've struggled a great deal with canon and 35mm adapter, for every time a wanted to change the aperture I had to remove it from my camera and put it on DSLR change the f stop then go back on the camera....

This is simply why I am going with Nikons; more options

Cheers

[Evin Grant]

Jaadgy, you can use your manual Nikon lenses on the Birger as well. It's the same mount. I'll probably buy both mounts.

[Billy McCannon]

Thanks guys.

Why get both mounts? Is it for back up or is there something the Red Nikon mount can do that the Birger Lens Mount can't do?

[Mark Crabtree]

There are many more adapters to let other lenses be mounted on EOS than on Nikon.

Adapters to EOS include Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon F, Contax just to name a few.

[Steve Murray]

I own neither Nikon nor Canon lenses so I’m not compelled by previous investment or brand loyalty to opt for either. I had a slight bias toward Nikon which was the obvious choice before the Birger Lens Mount became a possible alternative, but now Canon seems to be a no-brainer.

Is there a case for Nikon?

Having shot Nikon for 30 years and now shooting Canon for the last two I would go with the Birger Canon mount. There is no reason to go Nikon if you do not already own the lenses, none. Also the Nikon focus direction is backwards - a big deal for AC's who are used to the other direction.

With your RED # you will be shooting with Canon right away or you can wait for who knows how long waiting on a Nikon mount....

Both make very good lenses. But if you are used to Cine lens quality and consistency you will find that still lenses are not made as well and some are very sharp, some are not. Test your new purchases - either brand.

Nikon vs. Canon - who cares.... The image is all that matters in the end. The sooner you can start shooting the better. Go Canon. IMHO

[jaadgy akanni]

There is no reason to go Nikon if you do not already own the lenses, none. Also the Nikon focus direction is backwards - a big deal for AC's who are used to the other direction.
Nikon vs. Canon - who cares.... The image is all that matters in the end. The sooner you can start shooting the better. Go Canon. IMHO
However, know that with the Birger mount, focus direction doesn't matter 'cause it should work just like on a DSLR. Also, decent Follow Focuses(or is it "foci"?) are reversible.

Canon vs Nikon, who cares? I care because I've shot with both and have always preferred the Nikon look. Someone else may have the opposite opinion on this, so it's a matter of taste.
BTW, according to Jim, the RED Nikon mount should be released in January.

[Steve Murray]

However, know that with the Birger mount, focus direction doesn't matter 'cause it should work just like on a DSLR.
I'm confused.... You think being on a Birger mount - which we have not seen nor touched yet - is going to have a reversing method for focus for Nikon? Why? Did Eric say that somewhere? I looked at his posts but could not find anything about that, did I miss it? The Birger is not auto focus and the Nikon lenses all focus the other direction so how does this apply? If it works just like on a DSLR then it will be focusing backwards, yes? Am I missing something? Direction does matter to an AC who is used to going the other way.


Also, decent Follow Focuses(or is it "foci"?) are reversible.
I think it's a lot to assume that everyone has an expensive FF that will reverse direction, I do not and I think many RED folks will not have the budget for one of those.


Canon vs Nikon, who cares?[/B] I care because I've shot with both and have always preferred the Nikon look. Seems to me that because the RED is digital and the images require post processing / color grading there is no way anyone will be able to tell what brand lens was used for any shot based on a "look". No way. The shots will either be sharp or not and that is about all that matters since all RED images will be DI (Digital Immediate) and once color graded only the final images will matter.

You can prefer & use whatever brand you want but that is not a reason to advise someone who is asking for advice on the best way to go with the Birger mount. Eric is about 5 months behind what he originally said he planned to do. I'm sure he is going the best he can but as we know all too well "things change" in the world of RED. The Birger Canon mount will be available much sooner. It is not about Canon / Nikon -- it's about being able to shoot images sooner -- time is money.


BTW, according to Jim, the RED Nikon mount should be released in January.

That will be great for all the Nikon folks.... but since things change a lot as RED is being developed I would not count on the RED Nikon mount until they are actually shipping -- just as Jim has always advised about this process.

[Bill Goehring]

I'm confused.... You think being on a Birger mount - which we have not seen nor touched yet - is going to have a reversing method for focus for Nikon? Why? Did Eric say that somewhere? I looked at his posts but could not find anything about that, did I miss it? The Birger is not auto focus and the Nikon lenses all focus the other direction so how does this apply? If it works just like on a DSLR then it will be focusing backwards, yes? Am I missing something? Direction does matter to an AC who is used to going the other way.


Excuse me, Jaadgy, mind if I cut in on this dance?

I think the difference here is that traditional follow focus units rely on a mechanical linkage: gears on the FF mesh with gears on the surface of the lens.

Yes, Nikkor optics--DSLR or not--may very well rely on focusing the lens barrel in the reverse direction to cinema and Canon lenses.

But the Birger Mount relies on an ELECTRONIC interface, so I think it may be a trivial difference to drive the internal gearing with the electronics one way or the other by merely reversing the polarity with which the internal lens motor drives the gearing.

[Evin Grant]

Thanks guys.

Why get both mounts? Is it for back up or is there something the Red Nikon mount can do that the Birger Lens Mount can't do?

Sorry, I meant both Nikon and Canon Birgers.

I own quite a bit of Nikon glass, AFS and MF so that's one reason, but there may be some client's that own EOS and that option is profitable too.

Personally I prefer Nikon glass, it's just my preference.

[Joel Kaye]

I'm confused.... You think being on a Birger mount - which we have not seen nor touched yet - is going to have a reversing method for focus for Nikon? Why? Did Eric say that somewhere?

I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned but even if not the Birger is an electronic control. Reversing directions should be very easy and I'd be totally stunned if he didn't do it.

Even though I've got Nikon lenses I'm getting the Canon Birger because odds are it will work better, sooner and my camera is coming sooner. Plus some Canon's have image stabilization that may translate better to RED than Nikon's based on some things I've read. That's a wildcard though...

[Steve Murray]

But the Birger Mount relies on an ELECTRONIC interface, so I think it may be a trivial difference to drive the internal gearing with the electronics one way or the other by merely reversing the polarity with which the internal lens motor drives the gearing.


I understand how it could work now, thanks Bill.

[Bill Goehring]

I understand how it could work now, thanks Bill.

Sure thing.

[Mike Zinner]

I remember a post by Erik from Birger stating that the Nikon mount will offer better iris control because their Nikon mechanics will have more steps. Here it is:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=89417#post89417

[jaadgy akanni]

I remember a post by Erik from Birger stating that the Nikon mount will offer better iris control because their Nikon mechanics will have more steps. Here it is:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=89417#post89417

Nice retrospect;I'd forgotten about that one. Here's part of what Eric said:
Canon lens irises are limited to 1/4 stop per step... mathematically it is really 1/3 stop per step, but there a four steps per stop - wrap your brain around that! Nikon lenses are only limited by the resolution of our mechanism, which will probably be better than that in the Canon lenses.

Some of the really inexpensive Nikon lenses have a direct encoder on the focus mechanism (after the gear train) so these may offer better performance than the equally inexpensive Canon lenses. But I think this last distinction is meaningless, as one is not going to spend $17K on a camera and $1K on a lens mount to use a $99 lens

Thanks Mike.

[Joel Kaye]

Some of the really inexpensive Nikon lenses have a direct encoder on the focus mechanism (after the gear train) so these may offer better performance than the equally inexpensive Canon lenses. But I think this last distinction is meaningless, as one is not going to spend $17K on a camera and $1K on a lens mount to use a $99 lens

Actually the $99 Nikon 50mm 1.8 rates as a very sharp lens from the reviews I've read. This does mean rolling the iris during a shot should be smoother with the Nikons.

I'm A LOT more worried about smooth accurate focus. And odds are you could smooth out the Canon 1/3 iris increments in post if they are noticable.

[Eddie]

After fumbling around with an old AI-S nikon lens all day trying to get accurate focus, I am now shure, that I will go for the birger canon mount and a supergrip. Maybe you can get away with using nikon primes on a tripod with ff and gearings but for anything handheld things are gonna fall apart. Critical focus is at the heart of 4K, and the focus throw of the AI-S lenses is way too short at the long end. The 35mm f/2 has about 2cm clockwise to play with from 1m-infinity! Also it is a bit sloppy when you are racking back and forth.
Secondly I believe that the canon mount will (unofficially) support foccusing with sigma primes and tokina zooms (for canon) which open up some nice bang for the buck options. (please correct me if I´m wrong on this) A set of atx pro zooms from tokina would do the trick for me for now (apart from a little CA they have an outstanding performance and a nice build based on angenieux patents) leaving plenty of cash for some more exotic lens choices along the way.
all the best Eddie

[Siva Kollipara]

Plus some Canon's have image stabilization that may translate better to RED than Nikon's based on some things I've read.

How far this IS/VR works for motion pictures, They may be best for Still photography, Has any one tested them for HD or RED?

If IS/VR has no value, we can save good money without any loss in quality optics.

[chuck colburn]

And remember no matter what lens you are using to always go wide open and stop down to your chosen stop. But you guys know that. lol

[Nils J. Nesse]

I've ordered the Nikon mount, BUT.

It bothers me that most of Nikon's best primes will not have focius control on the Birger mount. Like the 85mm F1.4 AF-D and the 105mm F2 DC AF. If Birger could make this work, the mount would be about twice as useful. (I like to work with primes.)

I guess the Birger mount works the same as the Nikon D40(x) DSLR, which can autofocus only on AF-S lenses. (No AF motor in the camera body.)

Sigma have their Nikon mount AF-S equivalent lenses, with the HSM designation (Hyper Sonic Motor). These will autofocus on the D40(x), so I guess there's a good chance they will work with the Birger also? This would open up a few possibilities, although I would much prefer to use Nikon.

The Sigma 30mm F1.4 HSM seems like a good buy for a low light normal lens, when you need focus control. Sigma 14mm F2.8 has HSM, while Nikon 14mm does not have AF-S. Also I own the 150mm macro with HSM, which is very nice.

[Siva Kollipara]

And remember no matter what lens you are using to always go wide open and stop down to your chosen stop. But you guys know that. lol

Actually I do not know thanks for the tip, but want to know why one should wide open, as it already the functionality of Auto lens?

[chuck colburn]

Well most if not all lenses have some slop in the iris and/or control ring. This is not such a concern with still images but to be spot on (or at least as accuretly as the aperture scale is calibrated) you should open the iris up all the way and then stop down to your given stop. This takes the lash/slop out of the mechanisim. This is standard operating procedure in the motion picture world. It could be these still camera lenses with electrically controlled apertures don't have this problem. I don't know.

[Nathan Troutman]

Like everyone else here I've been trying to make my decision so I can place my order by tomorrow with Birger so I can get the free goodies.:sorcerer:

It is too bad Nikon doesn't have hardly any AF-S primes (and nothing at all in the normal range you'd like to have 20mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm.) But we already have two AF-S Nikon f2.8 zooms and a Sigma super wide zoom. I'd love to have more prime lens options but there's no way I can justify spending the extra for Canon. There are the Sigma prime options but I'm not sure about Sigma quality.

The only think about Canon is putting together a prime EF L-series set is pretty expensive. It almost makes you go for two Canon L series zooms. Canon does have many other good options that still use the ultrasonic motors with non-L primes, so you could go that route. If I was starting from scratch I would probably go Canon, but it certainly wouldn't be very cheap. If you stayed away from the L-line you could put a nice prime set all USM for probably about $1500.

Here's a good question: What's better an L-series zoom or a non-L series prime?

[albert rudnicki]

Like everyone else here I've been trying to make my decision so I can place my order by tomorrow with Birger so I can get the free goodies.:sorcerer:

It is too bad Nikon doesn't have hardly any AF-S primes (and nothing at all in the normal range you'd like to have 20mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm.) But we already have two AF-S Nikon f2.8 zooms and a Sigma super wide zoom. I'd love to have more prime lens options but there's no way I can justify spending the extra for Canon. There are the Sigma prime options but I'm not sure about Sigma quality.

The only think about Canon is putting together a prime EF L-series set is pretty expensive. It almost makes you go for two Canon L series zooms. Canon does have many other good options that still use the ultrasonic motors with non-L primes, so you could go that route. If I was starting from scratch I would probably go Canon, but it certainly wouldn't be very cheap. If you stayed away from the L-line you could put a nice prime set all USM for probably about $1500.

Here's a good question: What's better an L-series zoom or a non-L series prime?

Nathan you really want the L series.:matrix:

[Michael Hastings]

Like everyone else here I've been trying to make my decision so I can place my order by tomorrow with Birger so I can get the free goodies.:sorcerer:

It is too bad Nikon doesn't have hardly any AF-S primes (and nothing at all in the normal range you'd like to have 20mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm.) But we already have two AF-S Nikon f2.8 zooms and a Sigma super wide zoom. I'd love to have more prime lens options but there's no way I can justify spending the extra for Canon. There are the Sigma prime options but I'm not sure about Sigma quality.

The only think about Canon is putting together a prime EF L-series set is pretty expensive. It almost makes you go for two Canon L series zooms. Canon does have many other good options that still use the ultrasonic motors with non-L primes, so you could go that route. If I was starting from scratch I would probably go Canon, but it certainly wouldn't be very cheap. If you stayed away from the L-line you could put a nice prime set all USM for probably about $1500.

Here's a good question: What's better an L-series zoom or a non-L series prime?

I was at Arri here in Ft. Lauderdale and we were talking about the RED, D20, etc. and there engineer brought up that he thought one of the biggest adjustments in thinking that is going to happen is how critical an issue dust on the sensor is. It seems that using the zooms as variable primes may help with this aspect of digital shooting.

[Nils J. Nesse]

Nathan you really want the L series.:matrix:

The always controversial Ken Rockwell has an article on L-series lenses (http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/l.htm) worth considering.

[Mike Prevette]

AquaVid,

Dust on the sensor isn't much of a concern to those of use that have spent time with film cameras. We check the gate every time we get a good shot in the can. It wasn't much different with HD where I would hit the "return" switch after each good take to make sure there was no error.

[Warren Kommers]

What about the feathering of the actual focus pull on this mount? Is it jerky like the auto focus? Can it be fast? Can it be slow? Can you do what you do with a speed crank? Great idea I'm just concerned how it will perform in a professional enviroment.

[Mike Prevette]

Hollywood, I'm thinking the same thing. My thinking is that it more than likely will not work so well for pulls. The USM motors in Canon lenses are VERY different from servos used in most cine style systems. I don't think they will have the resolution nor the fluidity necessary for pretty pulls. I of course could be proven very wrong.

[Eddie]

You can either pull focus by turning a rail mounted knob, or the knob and slider on the remote control- so speed crank shouldn´t be a problem. Also I believe the focus movement should be quite smooth since the AF lenses have between 2000 and 4500 discrete focus steps, which should deliver a very smooth pull.
I don´t know about the knobs as such though... Hope they have a good feel to them.

[Eddie]

ooops, one question opposite answers... lets hope someone gets their hands on a unit some time soon.

[Jim Arthurs]

The USM motors in Canon lenses are VERY different from servos used in most cine style systems. I don't think they will have the resolution nor the fluidity necessary for pretty pulls. I of course could be proven very wrong.

Hi Mike. What is known is that each of the various Canon lenses have differing numbers of steps, ranging from the high hundreds to the several thousands depending on the lens. These steps are not distributed in a linear fashion, but fall with greater density in the closer focus ranges where they are needed. The Birger will re-map these steps to a fixed high number of linear steps (4000 ish) on their controller knob using the full rotation of the knob for each lens.

What is not known (until L.A.R.T) are great number of important details, my personal list includes;

1.) What is the process used for mapping a lens? Does it happen each time the mount is powered up?

2.) What is the tactile response of the knob? How quick and responsive to commands will it work? Will slow focus creeps be very smooth or exhibit stutter?

3.) How do you control iris? I _think_ you simply throw a switch on the knob to change from focus to iris.

4.) On power up, does both focus and iris return to the last settings?

5.) How rugged and dependable is it? Will it work when in an active physical enviroment with lots of camera ballistics?

And on and on.

Personally, I really hope it's all that and a bag of chips. We'll see...

[Siva Kollipara]

This might be little out of this topic, but thought of asking in Birger discussion.
Can someone explain us the difference between these two methods.
1)Red Nikon Mount($500) + RedRcok FF($645)+RedRock Remote($500) = $1645, cannot work for CPU lenses
2)Birger Nikon Mount + remote(currently Free)=$1450, but what I understand if we need to use Manual Lens, we need to buy another FF, which another is$645 or so.

What I want understand is, why many people leaning towards Birger solution?

[Jim Arthurs]

What I want understand is, why many people leaning towards Birger solution?

The main reason (for me) is the potential of really good electronic focus pulling, both wired and remote/wireless. I say "potential", because that is what it is until someone reveals the nuts and bolts of a working unit and has run it through its paces and reports in.

I'm also excited about the Canon EF and EF-S zooms and feel they'll be perfect for my personal lens set. For instance, the 10-22mm is a heckva lens and will also be perfect for any occasional 2K windowed work.

[albert rudnicki]

The always controversial Ken Rockwell has an article on L-series lenses (http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/lenses/l.htm) worth considering.

Good read, but how can you compare 14mm to 50mm...
Agreed that you should not ignore other lenses, but I have used both in production (35mm adapter) and wouldn't invest in a none L lens. L last forever when used regularly. Others fall apart in heavy use.
Cheers

[Mark K.]

The reverse focussing of the Nikkor lenses compared to cine lenses is an interesting point to consider. However I think it's fairly safe to assume that if you can't afford a reversible follow focus to use with your 35mm still lenses, you probably can't afford an AC with the experience on cine lenses to be put off by that fact.

[Bill Goehring]

I think the difference here is that traditional follow focus units rely on a mechanical linkage: gears on the FF mesh with gears on the surface of the lens.

Yes, Nikkor optics--DSLR or not--may very well rely on focusing the lens barrel in the reverse direction to cinema and Canon lenses.

But the Birger Mount relies on an ELECTRONIC interface, so I think it may be a trivial difference to drive the internal gearing with the electronics one way or the other by merely reversing the polarity with which the internal lens motor drives the gearing.

Once again, at the risk of quoting myself from just a few pages back in this thread, I think what you're missing here is that the Birger Mount is electronic, not mechanical, so a higher-cost, reversible-gearing mechanism shouldn't be necessary, at least not with AF-S lenses.

Of course, this will not be the case with CURRENT Nikkor primes or with the manual RED Nikon Mount, but the current line-up of Nikkor AF-S zooms covers the entire range of almost anyone's conceivable focal length needs.

I also have a feeling that, with the demise of the DX format and the emergence of the FX format, in time, there will be an AF-S refresh of Nikkor primes. After that, you will not only have a great selection of the most up-to-date zooms but primes as well.

[Nathan Troutman]

in time, there will be an AF-S refresh of Nikkor primes. After that, you will not only have a great selection of the most up-to-date zooms but primes as well.

I really hope so because right now that's the big advantage Canon has with their L-series primes (even if they do cost a thousand dollars a pop.)

I thought visakk brought up an interesting point. You could get a good follow focus set-up both manual and remotely by going the Redrock way he mentioned.

1)Red Nikon Mount($500) + RedRcok FF($645)+RedRock Remote($500) = $1645.

If I had to counter I'd say that: 1st the Redrock remote is not available yet so we don't know what if any issues it may have or what it's performance might be like (then again until this weekend we don't know much about Birger either.) 2nd you still have to attach gears to your lenses and deal with lens travel and physically attaching the follow focus to the lens. This may be a plus to some who might prefer to have the old tried and true manual feel for all lenses. 3rd if you buy or have a manual follow focus like Redrock's you can still use the Birger mount with manual Nikon lenses just like you would with the Red Nikon mount. So add in $645 to the $1450 and at $2095 you have just as many options as the all Red and Redrock approach.

I think the excitement about Birger is the hope that this "hands-off" all electronic approach to focusing might prove to be a step forward for pulling focus in a better way. The hope being that the servo motors will be smoother and better than anyone's hand could ever be.

I'm also hoping for all of that and a bag of chips as well!

[Bill Goehring]

Quoting the Birger Engineering reservation order form:
"Deposit is fully refundable until seven days before shipment is scheduled. Requests for order cancellation must be received by email or FAX."

Seems to me that allowing Birger to hold a $290 refundable deposit in exchange for the promise of a free blue tooth unit priced at $600 is a good deal--and you can bail out up to one week before delivery, no questions asked.

This deal may not be quite as good of an insurance policy for those purchasing the Canon system, which is due to ship within weeks, since there will be less time for flaws in the system to come to light before scheduled shipment. But, if you're considering the Nikon, Sigma or fourthirds mount, there should be plenty of time to hear how the Canon mount is working from LART testing and those taking shipment in December.

I placed my order for a Birger Nikon Mount on November 23rd; it was among the first orders received by Birger. Erik said in a phone call today that I should be able to expect shipment by early February.

[Karl H]

Hi Mike. What is known is that each of the various Canon lenses have differing numbers of steps, ranging from the high hundreds to the several thousands depending on the lens. These steps are not distributed in a linear fashion, but fall with greater density in the closer focus ranges where they are needed. The Birger will re-map these steps to a fixed high number of linear steps (4000 ish) on their controller knob using the full rotation of the knob for each lens.

What is not known (until L.A.R.T) are great number of important details, my personal list includes;

1.) What is the process used for mapping a lens? Does it happen each time the mount is powered up?

2.) What is the tactile response of the knob? How quick and responsive to commands will it work? Will slow focus creeps be very smooth or exhibit stutter?

3.) How do you control iris? I _think_ you simply throw a switch on the knob to change from focus to iris.

4.) On power up, does both focus and iris return to the last settings?

5.) How rugged and dependable is it? Will it work when in an active physical enviroment with lots of camera ballistics?

And on and on.

Personally, I really hope it's all that and a bag of chips. We'll see...

These are the exact things I would like to know too. I actually pre-ordered 2 focus knobs and 2 cables just incase I needed 2 wheels (one for Iris, one for focus). I will cancel one of the knobs if it turns out you can flip a switch between the two.