one to one pixel for monitoring

[Michael Brennan]

Stuart,
Can't find any reference in the archives, how feasible is a one to one pixel display on the 720p output?

Ideally activated by a momentary push button.
Very useful for a quick focus or lens check on the fly or during replay in the field.

Many RED users will put the camera to innovative use and may have to pull focus on the fly, not a common activity with 35mm film.


Mike Brennan

[Cüneyt Kaya]

gibby used this method with success, look to the threads, he started.
because i dont remember in which thread he talked about it.

[Brook Willard]

There's a 2x [ish?] zoom mode as of today. Having spent a lot of time using that feature, I wonder about the real benefits of a 100% zoom focus mode. I've been pleasantly surprised by how sharp I can eye focus using the current zoom mode.

That said, it would be nice.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I would say that in all that we have done with our red cameras, all that we have learned ... all that we have seen ... be able to see 1 x 1 pixel "zoom in" from the sensor is the single most exciting feature which is NOT in any current spec -

IMHO this would make the Red camera "complete" -

and this is much more exciting to me than RGB or 1080, etc. -

even with the "focus assist" and the "zoom in" button - it takes some real skill to get 100% rock solid critical focus when you are shooting fast - and when you film it out and throw it up on a big sheet - you sure can see when you are off even the slightest. This is the one feature I hope Red re-considers and rolls into the spec.

Pixel for pixel. Out the preview.

[Brook Willard]

IMHO this would make the Red camera "complete"

Personally I'd rather have simultaneous multiple outputs first. :bleh:

[Mark L. Pederson]

Personally I'd rather have simultaneous multiple outputs first. :bleh:

you will have that so fast your head's gonna spin -

[Mike Prevette]

insert snarky comment about hiring a good 1stAC here.

[Joel Kaye]

one to one monitoring

I don't really see how this will work if the subject and/or camera are moving around unless you've got a 4K display. Great for setting marks though.

I just think the focus assist has to be good enough to do it. It's got access to 4K of info and if it can paint the screen accurately with cues then you're there. Fighter jets have heads up displays that put crosshairs on targets. They don't have one to one monitoring (or lines on the edge of the screen). To me focusing RED should be more like a video game and less like navigating the Santa Maria.

Either that or get 1080P or 2K coming out to a monitor so we can use a 24" monitor for focus. But really I just want to be able to use that viewfinder to focus.

[I Bloom]

I'd like a 1:1 display as well, but I'd like it in a window so the operator can continue to hold the frame.

Actually, I'd like it to look like this:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1194404337.jpg

[david farland]

Nice ibloom,

Show selection of 1-1 pixel for areas that the focus assist show maximum output (= maximum focus).

/begin: madman rave section
Little bit like the picture of a magnifying glass viewing an out of focus newspaper except the high magnification view would not be controlled by where you pointed the magnifying glass but at what object was in focus. This information is feed by the focus assist signal. As controlled by lens focal ring more than just where centre of camera was pointed. It'd be a little bit like an flying disc moving around your view finder as you moved the camera and adjusted the focus area with focal ring. Of course you'd have to have it biased towards the centre but could use the new Red handled joystick w/ thumbwheel gitzo to move it off the centre if either the whole X or Y axis was in focus. Maybe you could have 3 levels of magnification insuring the entire frame (unless the critical focus was hard against the frame edge) was showing in the view finder.

/end: patent pending section

Can we have it by 31st Dec?

Cheers,

[Jeff Kilgroe]

...I'd just like a camera.

ibloom, I like the windowed idea. Maybe take it one step further and let the operator cycle or toggle a couple different sizes of windows and position it wherever they want in frame. Or select how many of those windows are visible and what sort of arrangement.

[Mark L. Pederson]

To me focusing RED should be more like a video game and less like navigating the Santa Maria.

Either that or get 1080P or 2K coming out to a monitor so we can use a 24" monitor for focus. But really I just want to be able to use that viewfinder to focus.

I don't know how hitting a hot button which displays a 1280 x 720 window of the sensor which you can move around with your joystick (to sample different parts of the sensor) is like navigating the Santa Maria. To me, that's a simple as it gets. Push a button, see pixel for pixel, push a button - back to frame.

And that would be the point, any size monitor would work. You would not need a 24" 1080 or 2K monitor.

[I Bloom]

...I'd just like a camera.

ibloom, I like the windowed idea. Maybe take it one step further and let the operator cycle or toggle a couple different sizes of windows and position it wherever they want in frame. Or select how many of those windows are visible and what sort of arrangement.

I agree that choosing arrangements might be nice. But simplicity is key. Just accept the fact that in a run and gun situation no focus assist will be perfect. To some extent they will spraying bullets at the target. More bullets more bulls eyes, I guess.

I'd rather not need to be touching the joystick while I'm operating. It's already difficult to get to the back of the camera. In a documentary situation, where the operator is also focusing, I prefer one hand on the lense and the other on the body, I 'd like to hit a single button and get confirmation that I'm sharp, hit a button again and go back to concentrating on framing.

Likewise I'd rather not have an AC touching my joystick. Especially while I'm operating. I'd prefer them not touching the joystick on the camera while I'm operating either.

I apologize. That may be my first lowbrow joke on Reduser.

IBloom

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yes, definitely simple is the way to go. I'm thinking more along the lines of making it configurable, but while operating it's a simple toggle on/off situation.

[Joel Kaye]

I don't know how hitting a hot button which displays a 1280 x 720 window of the sensor which you can move around with your joystick (to sample different parts of the sensor) is like navigating the Santa Maria.

I want to go handheld and be able to focus on moving actors. Imagine that for a moment.

You think I can hit a hot button in the middle of a live take, hold the camera, joystick the magnified area around, guess what just happened to the composition, recompose and hold focus with my 3rd hand? I think I'll be pretty good but...

If an actor moves from one part of the frame to another there's no way to track them and hold focus if I can't see the whole frame.

What you're describing is a good solution for setting marks. To me that's like charting a course - which is ok but not the best. You're relying on stars (actors) and plot points.

Damn that was a good metaphor.

[Häakon]

I've voiced my preference for this feature many times myself, but since there hasn't been any response from the RED camp on the issue, add me to this list as well. :-) I don't find the current "2x" mode sufficient in all situations; a 1:1 mode would be greatly appreciated.

[david farland]

Nah,
i think there's a way. If you've got this floating bubble/s of clear magnified pixels floating on top of the in-focus section round your view finder and you can effect how aggressive or expansive the magnified areas are, then I think you could use it to see if you're tracking your focus point correctly. you would vary the amount of magnification of your focus bubble and maybe on the out of focus rest of picture place some transparent grid or some other overlay. One hand on the focus ring and the other in the AC's teeth for taking liberties or on the focus assist switch.


Dave,

[I Bloom]

One hand on the focus ring and the other in the AC's teeth for taking liberties or on the focus assist switch.
Earlier on I was hoping you could have the focus assist, say on the LCD and not the EVF, but it sounds like that's not in the cards?

IBloom

[nzben]

Following link is to a tried and tested focus assist device. Good value for money, light, reliable, available now. (compatible with Red Camera)

http://www.freefoto.com/preview/13-55-6?ffid=13-55-6

[Mike Prevette]

^^^ what he said

[Häakon]

Following link is to a tried and tested focus assist device. Good value for money, light, reliable, available now. (compatible with Red Camera)
Your sarcasm is noted, but until the new lens mounts are made available and the actual focus numbers on my lens match up with real world results, the only choice I have is to use my monitor. And like others, I'd prefer a 1:1 zoom over/in addition to the "2x" crop.

[nzben]

Come now, don't be so sensitive!!

Back to the original post, yes 1:1 pixel ratio would be handy. I have used the zoom in function on occasion to check eye sharps against tape, but as with many of the suggestions on this thread, this is not something that you can use practially during a take to pull focus from. (note difference between pulling focus and seeing a sharp image)

At the end of the day, perfect focus is achieved by putting the lens focus distance in exactly the right place. How you come to decide where that place is can be achieved using many different methods. Often simplicity is best.

As to your comments on having to trust eye sharps until the lens mount is replaced, have you followed the tread titled PL Mount? This discusses what the problem actually is, and that you can correct it. You will need access to an allen key, some shims, some time & patience.

[Joel Kaye]

Back to the original post, yes 1:1 pixel ratio would be handy. I have used the zoom in function on occasion to check eye sharps against tape, but as with many of the suggestions on this thread, this is not something that you can use practially during a take to pull focus from. (note difference between pulling focus and seeing a sharp image)

Just to clarify - I'm not saying I don't want 1 to 1. I think that's sort of a given. I really want better additional tools for full frame pulling focus. A friend of mine will have an EX1 in a couple days. It's supposed to to have a new focus assist. I'll check it out. Disclaimer - I haven't used the Red focus assist as it now stands but if it was super accurate I doubt this thread would be here.

I think Dave and iBloom have some pretty good ideas. Seeing the full frame as well as user configurable 1:1 areas might work. I'm still a fan of highlighting sharp edges in frame. Like peaking on steroids.

[P Andersson]

normal - full screen
one push - iblooms grid
second push - one pixel per pixel generated from center square
third push - back to full screen

(as an option, the grid could be jumped from square to square with a joystick, then the second push of a button would reveal that area as center)

[Dalibor Fencl]

I believe, the center square is completely useless. Imagine: double portrait - useless. Single face - eyes aren't in center. Cowboy shot to long shot - characters never in the middle ....

[Brent J. Craig]

Add this focus puller's vote for a 1:1 mode, but here's what would make it useful - You need to be able to display it on the monitor the focus puller is using, but NOT have it on the operator's or director's monitors.

We need multiple similtaneous outputs with selectable options - zoom vs no-zoom, framelines vs no framelines, dramatic warnings with giant red 'X's vs something a little less shocking for the director/clients!

[Häakon]

This discusses what the problem actually is, and that you can correct it. You will need access to an allen key, some shims, some time & patience.
Hi,

When I spend $40,000 on a camera setup I don't expect that I will have to spend time shimming and tweaking it to get it to function properly. That being said, I am very interested to see how the new PL mount performs; hopefully it will render that discussion moot.

[Michael Morlan]

Add an eye tracking feature to the EVF/LCD so when the operator/a.c. glances at the top-right third, for instance, the 1:1 PIP slides up there. :w00t:

Seriously, the center-screen 1:1 window is functional but a pain requiring re-framing especially for focus. iBloom's idea is cool although I'd go with half as much 1:1 screen real estate so I could better watch the frame.

I'd always hoped for separately controlled features on the outputs so the a.c. could have their display set up just for them. I'll be glad just to get my camera...

M

[nzben]

Hi,

When I spend $40,000 on a camera setup I don't expect that I will have to spend time shimming and tweaking it to get it to function properly. That being said, I am very interested to see how the new PL mount performs; hopefully it will render that discussion moot.

Of course you don't. I'm suprised at how many people seem happy to live with the situation. On a professional job, if you had a camera with that problem, you wouldn't use it, full stop. We had to find a work around because there was only 1 camera available. We could have left it as it was and told the production company "you can use the camera, but there are focus issues". I would say that in that case the camera wouldn't have done nearly as many shoots. I was just happy to have found a way (in conjunction with the camera owners) to get the mount to a workable state, so we could shoot and not have any worries about focus. I've never had to shim a camera before, and I shouldn't have to really.

The new mount has been announced as completed and although I really hope it works, I for one won't be 'waving my hands in the air like I just don't care' until I have seen it on a camera, working, no problems.

[Brent J. Craig]

When I spend $40,000 on a camera setup I don't expect that I will have to spend time shimming and tweaking it to get it to function properly.

Professional gear requires maintenance. Always has, always will.

[david farland]

If you accept you're gear will always go out of alignment that's your business. Not accepting it usually results in improvements.
Now....there's corrective and preventive maintenance.
If I buy a car I will accept the need to carry out preventive maintenance like an oil change once in a while. I won't accept i've got to continually align the headlights with a collimator/shims every few times I take it out....that's just a shite design.

Cheers,

[Michael Brennan]

On a recent job, using a 42x HD lens I was able to correct some backfocus shift probably caused by these factors

1/camera head and lens heating up in sunny weather

2/ Lens being hung underneath a helicopter, pointing down and getting the odd 1.5G hit from very bumpy weather

3/Possible loose/slack gears in the lens

I was able to do a backfocus check and adjustment without shutting down aircraft or removing lens because I had a one to one pixel display in the aircraft and remote control of backfocus.
Brilliant.

More to the point I saw that it had shifted because we had 1:1 pixel display!


As for RED, to do reliable backfocus check in the field the average assistant almost certainly needs 1:1 pixel monitoring or the adjustable PL mount may be an accident waiting to happen.





Mike Brennan


.

[Häakon]

Professional gear requires maintenance. Always has, always will.
Certainly, but it shouldn't require that maintenance right out of the box. There are clearly enough issues that RED has taken it upon themselves to design a new mount and call back the first 100 cameras to be retrofitted. I have to hand it to them, though, they are taking care of their customers and doing what it takes to get things right. Other companies would release a "B" version that you'd have to buy all over again...

[Joel Kaye]

So I got a few hours with the new Sony EX1 yesterday.

The focus assist was amazing. It's basically the same as the JVC but seems more sensitive in lower light.

We were out at a high school soccer game. I was able to focus easily on whatever I wanted to off the 3" LCD while zoomed with NO damn A/C measuring distances or pulling out huge monitors.

I pointed into the crowd zoomed into where I had a couple feet of DOF and racked from about 60 feet away to maybe 40 away without hunting for focus. Just bang, bang... one smooth move from one target to the next.

We come home and plug the HD-SDI out (1080 thank you very much) into the 24" JVC reference monitor and sure enough it's dead nuts in focus.

Sitting there playing around in the house I found myself looking AWAY from my JVC monitor and TO the little LCD's focus assist to focus the camera. It's just easier to have those highlights lighting up whiskers or champagne bubbles than it is trying to looking even at 1:1 at a monitor 4 feet away. I'm not saying the monitor isn't great to have there to verify everything - but the truth is that focus assist WORKS.

Now why you can get good focus in 1080P on a 3" inch screen on a $6500 CAMERA and not very easily on a $1700 LCD on a $20,000 camera is beyond me. Maybe it's a feature that's still coming for RED - but fighting using that type of focus assist is just stupid IMHO.

Get over it and find a way to stick it in there. It's embarrasing - or it's about to get embarrasing when that camera gets out there... 'cause it's a category killer. That camera is the best designed thing overall I've seen yet. The only thing missing is 35mm DOF. 1/2" ain't bad... but it's not the same.

[nzben]

As for RED, to do reliable backfocus check in the field the average assistant almost certainly needs 1:1 pixel monitoring or the adjustable PL mount may be an accident waiting to happen.


Mike Brennan


.

Mike, with a properly setup PL mount, you can't adjust back focus and you dont have to. Thats the point. You check it in prep, all your lenses should match up to their markings - if not get the camera tech to check it.

As for the comment re: adjustable PL mount, I hope you are wrong, it's my fear as well.

[nzben]

So I got a few hours with the new Sony EX1 yesterday.

The focus assist was amazing. It's basically the same as the JVC but seems more sensitive in lower light.

We were out at a high school soccer game. I was able to focus easily on whatever I wanted to off the 3" LCD while zoomed with NO damn A/C measuring distances or pulling out huge monitors.

I pointed into the crowd zoomed into where I had a couple feet of DOF and racked from about 60 feet away to maybe 40 away without hunting for focus. Just bang, bang... one smooth move from one target to the next.

We come home and plug the HD-SDI out (1080 thank you very much) into the 24" JVC reference monitor and sure enough it's dead nuts in focus.

Sitting there playing around in the house I found myself looking AWAY from my JVC monitor and TO the little LCD's focus assist to focus the camera. It's just easier to have those highlights lighting up whiskers or champagne bubbles than it is trying to looking even at 1:1 at a monitor 4 feet away. I'm not saying the monitor isn't great to have there to verify everything - but the truth is that focus assist WORKS.

Now why you can get good focus in 1080P on a 3" inch screen on a $6500 CAMERA and not very easily on a $1700 LCD on a $20,000 camera is beyond me. Maybe it's a feature that's still coming for RED - but fighting using that type of focus assist is just stupid IMHO.

Get over it and find a way to stick it in there. It's embarrasing - or it's about to get embarrasing when that camera gets out there... 'cause it's a category killer. That camera is the best designed thing overall I've seen yet. The only thing missing is 35mm DOF. 1/2" ain't bad... but it's not the same.


Focus assist can be good, esepecially in the situation you described. I used the new panasonic monitor the other day that has a function that creates red peaking on the sharp pixels. It was actually handy as we crashed into an unplanned closeup (35mm DOF) and I was able to see where the focus was.

However, in the situation where you are shooting planned sequences, ie, drama with actors, camera moves, etc, most ACs will not focus pull off the monitors or some sort of focus assist device. It just doesn't work like that. Its certainly handy to have tools like that to refer to, but you can't pre-empt spacial change of 1 or more objects by staring at a graph on a monitor. It's one thing to look at focus on a 3" LCD monitor, but that means nothing when it gets projected on a 60 foot screen.

[Chris Kenny]

The technical issue with having a 1:1 mode is presumably that it would require a real demosaic, which I assume isn't currently being done for live video taps, since at 2K or less you can get away with just treating each group of four pixels as a single pixel.

This feature (and, I would guess, live 1080p output) might have to wait for on-camera RGB support, since that's presumably when we'll see real demosaicing implemented in-camera.

[Joel Kaye]

drama with actors, camera moves, etc, most ACs will not focus pull off the monitors or some sort of focus assist device. It just doesn't work like that.

Maybe most don't but these tools are new and aren't really part of the workflow YET. Regardless, after the shot if you can play back with focus assist on then you could verify you nailed it so it's still valuable.

I've shot drama with a focus assist and it worked just great on planned shots. You can use it to set your marks and you can see when someone has leaned in or out of focus and adjust. It's like a video game. Do it for a few hours and you get it figured out.

Is it going to work better for a great AC that can tell 6'3" from 6'8" while parked off to the side of a scene? No. Probably not. I'm not asking that guy to change anything. Keep on doing it that way.

But how many RED owners are going to have that guy on their shoot? RED is trying to sell 5000 cameras and year and there are probably a few hundred AC's that good.

I stand by what I said though. If they can stick in a $6500 camera and give people the choice to use it or not then they ought to be able to get it into RED.

[nzben]

Maybe most don't but these tools are new and aren't really part of the workflow YET. Regardless, after the shot if you can play back with focus assist on then you could verify you nailed it so it's still valuable.

I've shot drama with a focus assist and it worked just great on planned shots. You can use it to set your marks and you can see when someone has leaned in or out of focus and adjust. It's like a video game. Do it for a few hours and you get it figured out. RED.


These are the situations where I think it will have it's strength - before the shot to aquire marks, and after the shot to check.