Is RedCine the only way possible to convert Red Raw media?

[Thomas Mathai]

In the past, it would be easy to convert Quicktimes or AVIs to something else as long as the codec was made available.

Even if a Quicktime or AVI Red Raw codec is available for Final Cut, Premiere or After Effects, etc, is it essensial to use RedCine to do image conversion or can we use any of the supported apps to do it?

[Brook Willard]

You will be able to play back REDCODE RGB stuff in QT-enabled applications... apparently. REDCODE RAW data has no pixels to display... so of course you'll need REDCINE to first develop said data. Until some other company does it... maybe.

[Ace]

I think you are confusing the role of raw with the role of a codec. They are completely different things.

A Raw file is like a piece of film. It needs to be developed. A Raw converter goes way beyond just "playing back" the file. Theres exposure adjustment, temperature balance, curve adjustment, demosaic, etc. It translates the greyscale data captured from the sensor into usable imagery. Once processed, you can then choose to export into whichever file format you prefer. Weather it be uncompressed, or RED's own Redcode codec.

[Graeme Nattress]

There will be ways to use the quicktime codec for RAW use. However, you'll probably get the best control and user experience in REDCINE.

Graeme

[Rob Lohman]

REDCINE will be one (*) way

* :)

edit: Graeme just gave it away...

[Mark L. Pederson]

Graeme & Rob -

any decision yet if REDCINE will transcode other file formats (DPX, QT) TO Redcode? Or will it only transcode FROM Redcode?

[Graeme Nattress]

It only takes REDCODE input, and will output to practically anything - exhaustive list will follow in the future when we've tested all the output options.

Graeme

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm sure I'm asking too soon here, but is REDCODE (the codec) going to be given away to third parties? Is there plans for licensing? If a company wanted to be able to transcode to REDCODE (from DPX, QT) for other reasons (I have some ideas ...) , will that technology be available from RED for free? In a another app for a fee?

[Graeme Nattress]

A good thought. Those are details we're really going to have to work on.

Graeme

[Mark L. Pederson]

Seperate from whatever the radical ideas I have on how REDCODE could used in production & post workflow - archival is just a no-brainer!

My company works on projects in all kinds of formats 720p, 1080p, DPX, SD, DVCPRO 50, DV etc. etc.

Now imagine that every project could be transcoded and archieved into one "universal intermediate" codec - REDCODE.

Then, whenever you need to revisit the media - REDCINE gives you what you need.

REDCODE = universal digital intermediate

Isn't this what CineForm is doing for HD content for Xbox?

[Rob Lohman]

Well, if you output to REDCODE you left the RAW domain. If you ingest RAW and change *nothing* then you could in theory output RAW again, but that's not how the real world works.

So with our codec installed any QuickTime compatible application should in theory be able to export to it.

You will not be able to (nor would that be useful) put that back into REDCINE. It only understands the files the camera generates.

[Mark L. Pederson]

so, let's say I have an HD feature film, 1920 x 1080 in 10 bit RGB codec - color corrected in SCRATCH (in 32 float). I output to HDSCAM SR for master, but I want to archieve for possible film-record out later. Or, a feature film in 2K DPX (10 bit log) - Don't you think it would be handy to be able to take the uncompressed 10 bit media or 2K DPX and transcode to REDCODE (12 bit) to archive?

[Thomas Mathai]

I"m looking at it from a post facility point of view. Sometime next year, I'm sure to see some footage from Red camera for either film out or DI.

It always makes more sense from my standpoint for me to convert the Raw media and integrate it into the pipleline, instead of just be given DPX files, which I wouldn't know what was done to it.

I'm sure there are a lot of post facilites that want as much control as possible over the images that enter their pipeline.

For some, RedCine may not fit into their pipeline elegantly, so that's why I was wondering if it's absolutely essential that the Red Raw media has to be converted with RedCine.

I will assume Scratch will probably support Red Raw sooner than the other DI apps, just because how actively used it is with the test material.

[Thomas Mathai]

so, let's say I have an HD feature film, 1920 x 1080 in 10 bit RGB codec - color corrected in SCRATCH (in 32 float). I output to HDSCAM SR for master, but I want to archieve for possible film-record out later. Or, a feature film in 2K DPX (10 bit log) - Don't you think it would be handy to be able to take the uncompressed 10 bit media or 2K DPX and transcode to REDCODE (12 bit) to archive?

If you have an HDCAM SR as your master, you just make a clone of that and give it to the facility you want for your filmout.

If you want to save on space, you would convert the DPX to Red Code.

[Thomas Mathai]

I think you are confusing the role of raw with the role of a codec. They are completely different things.

A Raw file is like a piece of film. It needs to be developed. A Raw converter goes way beyond just "playing back" the file. Theres exposure adjustment, temperature balance, curve adjustment, demosaic, etc. It translates the greyscale data captured from the sensor into usable imagery. Once processed, you can then choose to export into whichever file format you prefer. Weather it be uncompressed, or RED's own Redcode codec.

I know what Raw is, I just wanted to know if RedCine was the ONLY way to convert Red Raw media.

This is where I would rather have the control over what is done to the Raw than the person handing it to me.

If I'm going to be responsible for the final image output, then I want control over all the steps, instead of being handed files that someone else tweaked without knowing how the files were tweaked.

With film scans, I can always tell when a negative wasn't properly developed and make adjustments when rescanning.

[Mark L. Pederson]

If you have an HDCAM SR as your master, you just make a clone of that and give it to the facility you want for your filmout.

If you want to save on space, you would convert the DPX to Red Code.

that's correct.

but I'd rather output AND archive a higher resolution image than HDCAM SR -

ideally, I want to output REDCODE from SCRATCH - (I'm working in 32 float, why go to 10-bit files that are much larger than 12 bit REDCODE files??)

The 2K or 4K 12-bit lin in REDCODE is my master - REDCINE gets me whatever I want to layoff, encode for DVD, etc.

[danielg]

I thought REDCODE was a I-frame only wavelet encoder. Is this correct?

[Graeme Nattress]

REDCODE is indeed I-frame only (no GOPs) and is wavelet based. Beyond that, we have a special variant for RAW too (REDCODE RAW).

Graeme

[Rob Lohman]

Thomas: why not do the conversion in REDCINE yourself? Just ask for the original camera negatives and process those yourself.

offhollywood: if you can export to REDCODE then that should work. But that is a different REDCODE than REDCODE RAW which is what the camera generates (and is loadable *in to* REDCINE)

[Mark L. Pederson]

Thanks for that clarification Rob ..

So REDCINE only takes REDCODE RAW in -

Out of the camera is REDCODE RAW or UNCOMPRESSED RAW (or HDSI) -

What gives you "REDCODE"? (Not REDCODE RAW?)

[Gbabymogul]

What gives you "REDCODE"? (Not REDCODE RAW?)

I assume anything that's not RAW - REDCODE RGB 1080p, REDCODE RGB 720p. BTW - #6 & 7 ? Nice ;)

[Thomas Mathai]

Thomas: why not do the conversion in REDCINE yourself? Just ask for the original camera negatives and process those yourself.

offhollywood: if you can export to REDCODE then that should work. But that is a different REDCODE than REDCODE RAW which is what the camera generates (and is loadable *in to* REDCINE)

Well if I have to use RedCine I will.

It's always easier to use the tools I already have at my disposal.

I'm just looking to address these questions that I know will pop up in the following months.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Obin, you're missing the point of what REDCINE is. It's not a colour correction application. It's primarily a RAW converter, and it has controls needed and required by a RAW converter. Also, the beginning of the workflow, where REDCINE is used, primarily, is not the place where you normally do advanced colour correction.


(this quote is from dvxuser) Graeme, I was hoping REDCine would work like Apple Aperture's raw capabilities, or a similar photography RAW converter. When the data is straight out of the camera, it is the best time to do color correction with custom curves etc. Will this not be the case?

-John
RED #613
www.myspace.com/ShootRED

[Rob Lohman]

Thomas: that's possible as well if they can load a QuickTime file (have to be careful to get more than 8-bits per channel though) or you can export something like a DPX sequence from REDCINE without doing any processing to the footage at all.


offhollywood: exporting to the QuickTime codec will give you that.

We are still finishing up all the post workflow tidbits, it's quite complex (behind the scenes). We will come out with a clear overview (picture?) once it has all settled.

As it looks now REDCINE will import all files generated by the camera and no doubt recordings made on the RED-RAID in the near future. It will not load your own generated REDCODE files.


PerfectOptics: no, not color correction in the traditional sense of the word. That implies much more and different controls. The application does have color controls but these are meant (together with the other controls) to get the image in the right range before further processing. Just like a one light in film terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-light

It indeed operates like other RAW converters, but on moving images.

For final color correction & other post effects you want to use tools more adapted to do that, like 3-way color correction, secondary color correction, power windows and so on.

[Brook Willard]

I can only hope that some new 4K 3-way color correction w/ secondaries moves down into an accessible range - within Final Cut Studio would be nice :D

Shake could hold me over but I'm just hoping a more streamlined option appears.

On this mysterious timeline that we'll see at some point... what will happen after pushing an EDL through REDCINE? Once we have our online picture lock coming out of the app for final color work... will that be entirely up to us or will there be some RED [or inherently REDCODE compatible] solution? I keep having to stomp out my inner rumor-monger every time I see Apple make a big move like buying Silicon Color... if only there was some RED-Apple collaboration ;)

[Simon Blackledge]

Will the REDCINE application be available seperatly? Post houses etc that shoot/hire using red?

[Mike Zinner]

Rob,

Will the color controls in REDCINE be kind of the Cineform RAW color tools, basically white balance and color matrix? Or even more sophisticated stuff?

This is what their stuff looks like, as mentioned on David's blog.
DemoCineFormRAW-WIP.wmv (http://www.cineform.com/downloads/DemoCineFormRAW-WIP.wmv)

Btw. I know you guys are competing with Cineform in a way but also that David Newman is under a NDA with Red. That makes me hope (and I guess a lot of guys here) that Cineform will still be treated as first class citizen and that a lossless conversion from REDCODE RAW to Cineform RAW will be available in REDCINE.

Not that I want to pay Cineform e.g. $2k for fun... But if I get all the real time effects I now have for 1080p available for 4K - those $2k would definitely be the best investment ever, after the $17,5k for the Red One of course :)

Thanks,
Mike

[Rob Lohman]

Mike: Graeme is the color (control) man, so he might have a more accurate answer, but amongst the features (subject to change!):

- White balance (Kelvin / tint)
- Saturation
- Gain
- Exposure
- Brightness
- Shadow
- Contrast
- Curves
- Output gamma

And the earlier mentioned resizing, cropping & positioning together with some other little things

p.s. keep in mind there is a difference in working real time on a preview proxy from 4K versus working on an actual 4K images. David has indicated as well that just the debayer on a 4K image is already very expensive (time consuming)

[Graeme Nattress]

You missed out curves!

Graeme

[Rob Lohman]

D'oh! Added them in now, thanks Graeme

[Thomas Mathai]

Thomas: that's possible as well if they can load a QuickTime file (have to be careful to get more than 8-bits per channel though) or you can export something like a DPX sequence from REDCINE without doing any processing to the footage at all.


offhollywood: exporting to the QuickTime codec will give you that.

We are still finishing up all the post workflow tidbits, it's quite complex (behind the scenes). We will come out with a clear overview (picture?) once it has all settled.

As it looks now REDCINE will import all files generated by the camera and no doubt recordings made on the RED-RAID in the near future. It will not load your own generated REDCODE files.


PerfectOptics: no, not color correction in the traditional sense of the word. That implies much more and different controls. The application does have color controls but these are meant (together with the other controls) to get the image in the right range before further processing. Just like a one light in film terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-light

It indeed operates like other RAW converters, but on moving images.

For final color correction & other post effects you want to use tools more adapted to do that, like 3-way color correction, secondary color correction, power windows and so on.

Combustion does a nice job of converting to DPX without having to appy a lut, Shake too.

[Thomas Mathai]

I can only hope that some new 4K 3-way color correction w/ secondaries moves down into an accessible range - within Final Cut Studio would be nice :D

Shake could hold me over but I'm just hoping a more streamlined option appears.

On this mysterious timeline that we'll see at some point... what will happen after pushing an EDL through REDCINE? Once we have our online picture lock coming out of the app for final color work... will that be entirely up to us or will there be some RED [or inherently REDCODE compatible] solution? I keep having to stomp out my inner rumor-monger every time I see Apple make a big move like buying Silicon Color... if only there was some RED-Apple collaboration ;)

I have never been a fan of having all my finishing tools in my NLE while editing, just makes it all cumbersome in the end, especially when you're doing long form.

That being said, it's nice to be able to throw on a quick CC, or key and have it sent to someone or another workstation for finessing.

EDL is an old concept that needs to be retired. I know there has been lots of talk about AAF and MXF, but a lot of app developers need to get serious about passing through and maintaining metadata information as we move from app to app.

I think this will happen quicker when more affordable asset management software comes to market.

A lot of indie filmmakers have one or 2 systems that they load everything on to do their work. As systems get cheaper, I see a typical indie studio including a few main workstations, a server for asset management and a small render farm to do all the crunching.

[David Newman]

p.s. keep in mind there is a difference in working real time on a preview proxy from 4K versus working on an actual 4K images. David has indicated as well that just the debayer on a 4K image is already very expensive (time consuming)

However we aren't working with a proxy, the entire image is present (up to 4096 by 4096 -- the codec can hold more, yet most NLE tools can't.) We all know we won't "preview" to that resolution for a few years, but previewing at 2K in multi-stream real-time is doable today. When the playback is stopped, scrubbed, or zoomed in, all 4096 pixel data is demoasiced and presentated (on the fly.) This is important for any effects work that requires access to online resolution and data.


I know you guys are competing with Cineform in a way but also that David Newman is under a NDA with Red. That makes me hope (and I guess a lot of guys here) that Cineform will still be treated as first class citizen and that a lossless conversion from REDCODE RAW to Cineform RAW will be available in REDCINE.

We hope not to be treated as a competitor either. We should be seen as just another NLE vendor wanting to support the Red camera, and that is a good thing. Just as Red shouldn't prevent the users adding Cooke lenses to their camera, we should be an optional post-production solution. As CineForm compression is already available with a Quicktime wrapper on the PC (soon on the Mac), all REDCINE needs to do is expose 12-linear RAW data to the QuickTime API and the user than then select CineForm RAW as a target format for post.


Not that I want to pay Cineform e.g. $2k for fun... But if I get all the real time effects I now have for 1080p available for 4K - those $2k would definitely be the best investment ever, after the $17,5k for the Red One of course :)

Thanks Mike, we do intend to make post a good experience for a wide range of cameras. You might be shooting RED ONE as your primary camera, it is nice to know your post tools can cut in pickup shoots everything else (Sony's nice new HDV 24p, P2, HDCAM, etc.) while maintaining real-time workflow.

[Brook Willard]

I have never been a fan of having all my finishing tools in my NLE while editing, just makes it all cumbersome in the end, especially when you're doing long form.

I couldn't agree more. Final Cut Studio is a suite of applications - Final Cut Pro is just one of them. I'd want color control moved to a separate app.

[Rob Lohman]

However we aren't working with a proxy, the entire image is present (up to 4096 by 4096 -- the codec can hold more, yet most NLE tools can't.) We all know we won't "preview" to that resolution for a few years, but previewing at 2K in multi-stream real-time is doable today. When the playback is stopped, scrubbed, or zoomed in, all 4096 pixel data is demoasiced and presentated (on the fly.) This is important for any effects work that requires access to online resolution and data.

I guess the word 'proxy' is wrong. Funny thing is we had internal discussions about this word. It's not a separate proxy file. It is indeed a 'preview' instead of a separate proxy. We are talking about the same thing :)

[David Newman]

Rob,

You got it. Proxy is an evil word to us, as in implies offline. Just as DPX is not a proxy for REDCODE, CineForm is the same yet lightly compressed, whereas in many cases DVCPRO-HD would be used as a proxy. We are an online format full-resolution, full-quality format.

[Häakon]

I couldn't agree more. Final Cut Studio is a suite of applications - Final Cut Pro is just one of them. I'd want color control moved to a separate app.
Very interesting. I think the thing I dislike most about FCS (and one reason I have yet to "make the switch" is because everything is separated. I love being able to have my timeline, apply realtime effects, text/character gen support, and color grading all in one place so if I want to change something - even something small - I don't have to render out, export to another app, render it again there, and bring it back into FCP. The only application I think should definitely be a standalone in the Studio suite is DVD Studio Pro, but that's just me. As has been said many times previously, choices are a good thing!

I also like offline editing too... so I guess I'll just bow out of this one. :-P

[Brook Willard]

The handy thing is that there is rarely any "rendering out" to another app. You just go to the file menu and select "send project to _____". Ten seconds later you have the whole project opened up in another app. You get all of the unnecessary controls out of the way and can focus on one task.

Currently, color controls are right in Final Cut Pro. While this is great for small tweaks, I prefer to do my finishing outside of my NLE - in a workspace strictly dedicated to the image.

But that's all a discussion for another thread :D

[Häakon]

That's pretty cool. Most of my "rendering out" experience when working with FCP has been to After Effects, though - and there's no "send project to" for that. :) But there's no question that Apple's suite has become a very popular one, and given the Red team's preference for it, I will probably be migrating down that path at some point this year.

[Appleton]

For final color correction & other post effects you want to use tools more adapted to do that, like 3-way color correction, secondary color correction, power windows and so on.Rob, what would you be looking at for when onlining 1080p/2K for colour grading and finishing RED footage ?

Scratch obviously is a good choice, and if it could somehow be competitively bundled with REDCINE, you'd have a winner.

Maybe NAB will answer the question ? Finishing software is one part of the puzzle I'm still working out. Thanks.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Rob, what would you be looking at for when onlining 1080p/2K for colour grading and finishing RED footage ?

Scratch obviously is a good choice, and if it could somehow be competitively bundled with REDCINE, you'd have a winner.

Maybe NAB will answer the question ? Finishing software is one part of the puzzle I'm still working out. Thanks.

SCRATCH is alot more expensive than the RED ONE CAMERA, so you are not going to see that bundled with REDCINE. My opinion, having just added it to our facility, it's worth every penny. But it is a very, very high end tool. More firepower and features than many folks need. So, it might be interesting for the Assimilate folks to consider a leaner/limited version for RED USERS with upgrade path to the full app - what do you think Lucas & Nacho?

I'm sure Apple will add color features or a "color room" to FCP since they "acquired" staff & technology from Silicon Color (Final Touch) - and they have been lagging behind the color tools in the Avid Nitris for while now -

In the meantime -

Stu's plug-in COLORISTA is really great way to kick FCP up a notch or two -
and it's a whopping $200 - http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/magicbulletcolorista.html

available today -

[Lucas Wilson]

SCRATCH is alot more expensive than the RED ONE CAMERA,

It is more expensive than the camera, but only if put together with a lot of modules. You can have a version of SCRATCH without all the bells/buzzers/whistles for less than the price of the camera... but also without color correction.


So, it might be interesting for the Assimilate folks to consider a leaner/limited version for RED USERS with upgrade path to the full app - what do you think Lucas & Nacho?

I think it's a pretty good idea... I don't just hang out here because I'm casually interested... ;)

Lucas
------
Decider of Things
Assimilate, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Mark L. Pederson]

you are in the right place ... at the right time ...

[Appleton]

Interesting. Nice rundown offHollywood. I'd prefer a separate set of colour tools, rather than an integrated NLE one. NAB should be intersting, in that aspect.



I think it's a pretty good idea... I don't just hang out here because I'm casually interested... ;)

Lucas
------
Decider of Things
Assimilate, Inc.
Los Angeles

Count me as "seriously interested", Lucas.:)

[Rob Lohman]

Scratch is a fantastic system. I have to add that I'm not a colorist so I'm not intimately familiar with all the post (color) software available. I'm starting to learn and play, but it's not my area of expertise. That would be programming :)

[Graeme Nattress]

Indeed Scratch is very powerful and stable. It's the sort of program that if you know you need it, then you need it, and it will do exactly what you want. The trick is to see if that's the case. If so, it will serve you well and be good value for money.

Graeme

[Jim Arthurs]

But there's no question that Apple's suite has become a very popular one, and given the Red team's preference for it, I will probably be migrating down that path at some point this year.

Yes, my feelings as well. A couple reasons why;

-I spend way too much time helping my clients run their FCP setups, answering questions about a NLE I don't own or know (which I find they know even less than I, yet and consider themselves very up to speed).

-Just yesterday I was setting up my CC session with a colorist who uses Final Touch... and guess what NLE runs in conjunction with that? It ain't Vegas or Edius...

So, the RED is a mighty enough camera to chase the platform and NLE preferences of those who are making it.

[Emanuel A.]

Rob and Graeme, do you have any opinion on the Synthetic Aperture (Color Finesse 2.1 HD+ -- HD/2K Resolution)? And BTW, vs. the Assimilate product?

EDIT -- BTW, also for you Jim! Do you have any idea on this?

[MikeCurtis]

Emanuel - Color Finesse is decent, but check out the new Colorista - I suspect it will be a more interesting solution. Uses GPU acceleration and other goodies, available for a ton of different apps all in one license.

Blogged on it at:

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/12/colorista-new-shiznit-for-diy-color_19.html

-mike

[Gunleik Groven]

Emanuel - Color Finesse is decent, but check out the new Colorista - I suspect it will be a more interesting solution. Uses GPU acceleration and other goodies, available for a ton of different apps all in one license.


Have you had time to put it through its paces yet?
I've been looking at color finesse for a while.
is there anything that gives you some of Shakes colorhandling in FCP (adding basic grading from one image to another through a sample area)?

Yep. Know it can be done in FCP. Just soooo easy in Shake...

Gunleik

[Nick Shaw]

Have you tried Conduit? Not as comprehensive as Shake, but it is Nodal image processing in 32-bit float, and it's GPU accelerated and works within the FCP timeline. I've found you can do some pretty nice grading with it.

Nick

[Gunleik Groven]

I'll dl it and try it out. Didn't know it had color features as well.

THX!

Gunleik

[Emanuel A.]

Emanuel - Color Finesse is decent, but check out the new Colorista - I suspect it will be a more interesting solution. Uses GPU acceleration and other goodies, available for a ton of different apps all in one license.

Blogged on it at:

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/12/colorista-new-shiznit-for-diy-color_19.html

-mikeMike,

Thank you very much for the tip.

Do you think this will handle well the 2k or even the 4k (if available)?

With a similar outcome if compared with Color Finesse?

The Color Finesse 2 HD+ apps is SD, HD, 2k and up. And well, they're saying «Color Finesse is a true 32-bit floating point color corrector, not just "floating point capable" and not in only a few correction tools.». Besides, the synthetic-ap has some credits [LINK (http://www.synthetic-ap.com/products/cf/showcase.html)].

But this Colorista [LINK1 (http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/magicbulletcolorista.html)] (or that one also provided for your website LINK2 (http://prolost.blogspot.com/2006/12/why-colorista.html)) has an unbeatable price: $200 vs. $1,900 is a substancial difference! I hope you gave me the tip I've been waiting for my route. Although I'd like to have your point of view on a full comparision related all these aspects -- 'cause I'm not coming from the techie side and you've definitely been building a reliable reputation on such poorly-sourced field (but not @yours where your blog is a fine exception!).

Your helpful input is very welcome!

Emanuel :)

[Stu Maschwitz]

Do you think this will handle well the 2k or even the 4k (if available)?

Colorista works in hardware, like Final Touch and Scratch, so you'd need a video card capable of holding the 4k image in memory.

Colorista is not a direct replacement for Color Finesse. Colorista is designed to provide an experience as much like operating a Da Vinci or other high-end color system as possible, right within your NLE.

The workflow that I imagine with Colorista and RED is: coloring in realtime in the NLE environment at some reduced resolution (maybe 720p or 1080p), DVCPROHD CoDec, or Sheer, or somethingn else mildly compressed, and then offloading the project to After Effects for 16-bit 4K rendering from the original RAW frames.

More about Colorista [LINK]
(http://prolost.blogspot.com/2006/12/why-colorista.html)
-Stu