The Sony EX 1... no "O" [Archive]

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Joel Kaye

11-30-2007, 07:58 AM

EX - O as in OH MY GOD.

Had about 4 hours with the camera so this is just a preliminary gut feeling on the camera.

Picture quality looked great in 1080P. Very anxious to compare with RED. Seemed to have very nice dynamic range. Lens was sharp with very little noise. Started seeing noise about +9db that was probably similar to my HD-100 at zero BUT I didn't side by side that so I could be totally wrong.

Focus assist - GREAT. I mentioned it here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6184&page=4

Physical design is amazing. Slighty smaller than an HVX. About 6 lbs I GUESS. Things they got right - almost everything:

- Regular XLR and BNC connection for HD-SDI
- HD-SDI puts out 1080
- THE LENS works like a manual lens. Pull the focus ring back and it's a fully manual lens with focus distances. It's smooth to pull focus with but it does not have teeth for FF unit. The LCD also shows a graphical line that indicates both how far away you are focused AND a DOF line to show the range of DOF you have. Kewl. No breathing. Perfect. Sharp. Didn't do resolutions tests, but I'm guessing it's Discover Channel sharp.

- battery - small and lasts a couple hours.

- media slots. TWO (why doesn't RED have two slots? OR 4?)

- nice picture right out of the box. Couldn't really test the dynamic range but I suspect it's as good or better than any other sub $10k camera.

- The codec. We didn't test everything but we did go out and get some fast action sports stuff. High School soccer under the lights at night. I never saw a codec problem in the footage. That's not to say it's REDCODE raw. I'm sure it's not. It's just not something that's a visible problem. We were viewing via HD-SDI onto both a JVC 24" reference monitor and a Dell 24" via a BlackMagic HDLINK.

With a camera like this I'm guessing you'd move right to Cineform or Prores in post.

There were a lot of other little touches. Playing with the camera I felt like they looked all the other cameras in the category said "beat them all on everything" and then they did it.

I'm hard pressed to see why you'd buy another camera under $10k unless you couldn't afford $6500 for this one, or you need to change lenses - and were really going to do it. There may be a few things... the HD-SDI doesn't have audio for instance. The last bastion of the HVX is the codec though I've seen plenty of macroblocking on that camera. And its' 4:2:2 has been thorougly debunked as more like 2.7:1.3:1.3 when you consider the pint sized 960x540 chip hidden in the HVX. HVX users always seem baffled by the gorgeous imagery others get out of HDV cameras... as if the Earth wasn't flat after all.

Even if you're shooting greenscreen you'd be better of taking the HD-SDI out of the Sony and going to a computer or Cineform's upcoming $2,000 recorder.

This camera did exhibit the vignetting problem some have been talking about. Here's a tip. You can't see it in any normal shoot. We never saw it in any of our footage. Only pointing at a white wall will reveal very slight vignetting in the corners at some focal lengths.

My gut reaction is that for anything other than a movie you're going to want to test this camera. Even as a B movie camera to RED it could be the ticket. Have to see how it cuts.

But RED can learn a few tricks from Sony this time. It's a very well designed, easy to use camera.

Rudi Herbert

11-30-2007, 11:30 AM

Joelnet,

Thanks for the review. I read Adam Wilt's review of the camera and now yours and I like what I read. While we wait for our REDs, and even after they arrive, this would be a good option for lesser gigs that don't require such a professional touch. Is there a way you could post a link to some footage shot with the camera just to get an idea of what it looks like? That would be really useful. Politics of big companies aside, I've always loved Sony's colorimetry.

Thanks,

Chris Forbes

11-30-2007, 11:39 AM

some footage that I have posted on DVinfo.

www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/SloGatePRORES.mov 110.0 mb

www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark001.tif
www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark002.tif
www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark003.tif
www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark004.tif
www.thevideodepartment.net/EX1/IntheDark005.tif

I love the clean blacks and high sensitivity of this camera.

I got my camera the day before Thanksgiving. And I haven't stopped smiling since.

Joel Kaye

11-30-2007, 01:59 PM

Joelnet,

Thanks for the review. I read Adam Wilt's review of the camera and now yours and I like what I read. While we wait for our REDs, and even after they arrive, this would be a good option for lesser gigs that don't require such a professional touch. Is there a way you could post a link to some footage shot with the camera just to get an idea of what it looks like?

I'll try to get a couple clips. I didn't keep any footage.

This doesn't really show the resolution but it's fun to watch anyhow:

http://web.mac.com/philip.bloom/Philip_Bloom/Ex1_and_Letus_Extreme.html

Petr Dvorak

12-01-2007, 09:29 PM

I was surprised that cheaper A1 is sharper than EX 1.

comparsion of preproduction EX 1 and Canon XH-A1
http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Sony-XDCAM-PMW-EX1---Vorserienmodell.html

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/15_1196572895.jpg

Justin Anderson

12-02-2007, 03:16 AM

Graeme Nattress

12-02-2007, 04:46 AM

Yes, that's a small zone plate, the circular area. It's for making it easy to see aliasing artifacts, which appear like circular ripples in a pond. The aliasing on the A1 is obvious, whereas the EX appears better engineered, with much reduced levels of aliasing. Both are similarly sharpened though....

You can see more aliasing in the horizontal direction on the Canon. Presumably this is due to it's non-square pixels in it's 1440x1080 array, the larger horizontal dimension leading to greater aliasing horizontally.

Graeme

Andrew Young

12-02-2007, 08:54 AM

With a camera like this I'm guessing you'd move right to Cineform or Prores in post.

Just curious, why would you not edit native and only go to one of the above or uncompressed when your ready to render your final effects and output?

I had a brief look at the camera the other day and was also very impressed with the design. Will be doing some filmout tests soon. Looks like it could rule the roost in the sub 10K market.

Joel Kaye

12-02-2007, 09:02 AM

Just curious, why would you not edit native and only go to one of the above or uncompressed when your ready to render your final effects and output?

I had a brief look at the camera the other day and was also very impressed with the design. Will be doing some filmout tests soon. Looks like it could rule the roost in the sub 10K market.

I'd have to test the Native editing. Maybe that would be the way to go. I'm kinda thinking of the old HDV and don't really know anything about this codec other than we were at 35mb/s. So maybe you'd edit native. It would be worth testing native vs. other options for color grading and FX.

Uncompressed is great if you've got the throughput. Cineform is a way to save a lot of disk space and use a smaller raid while still having access to play with the pixels. Ditto for Prores. I wonder if a Cineform vs. Prores test has ever been done.

re: the rez comparizon - EX1 clearly looks better than then Canon in pics above. Perhaps the edgy Canon gives the illusion of resolution at first glance. Both of those guys dust the HVX.

Rudi Herbert

12-02-2007, 10:28 AM

Just curious, why would you not edit native and only go to one of the above or uncompressed when your ready to render your final effects and output?

Editing native on anything that's still GOP based, however good it looks to the eye, means having to deal with "pulling" and "stretching" the GOPs for cuts and effects, a huge mess that also results in real bad image degradation VERY fast. Cineform or Prores would be the way to go from the get go, but editing HDV or GOP based compressed formats natively is counterproductive even if you have the storage and computing power to deal with it.

My $.002 from personal experience,

Fix

12-02-2007, 11:10 AM

The Ex seems like an incredible tool for EFP/ENG work. I dont think it can stand up to RED's cinematic ability though. So if you want to make movies than go for RED.

From what I'w heard you can match it perfectly up to an F350 or even F900... And that's great for only 6500$!

Andrew Young

12-02-2007, 06:28 PM

It would be worth testing native vs. other options for color grading and FX.

Just to be clear, I would not recommend doing FX or color grading in a GOP based codec. But there is still no reason (I believe) to tanscode all of your footage into an intrafame codec from the get go when you can offline native (with all your FX and CC) and then paste the whole thing into a timeline that is based on an intraframe codec and render. Even better, FCP studio 2 allows you set it to render all XDCAM material as ProRes, so whenever rendering is needed, you're no longer GOP based. It's a nice feature that would seem to make transcoding unnecessary.

Editing native on anything that's still GOP based, however good it looks to the eye, means having to deal with "pulling" and "stretching" the GOPs for cuts and effects, a huge mess that also results in real bad image degradation VERY fast.
True, but when you use the above workflow, I believe (based on my own experience), you get around the GOP issue.

I have heard great things about Cineform. Does anyone know if it is fully supported on the Mac yet?

Scott Webster

12-02-2007, 06:55 PM

Well this sample didn't look too shabby

EX1 and Letus Extreme (http://web.mac.com/philip.bloom/Philip_Bloom/Ex1_and_Letus_Extreme.html)

Sven Seynaeve

12-02-2007, 07:23 PM

Seems to be having good results. I'd like to try this one as well real soon, for replacing my havier cams in situations where i could better be off with this one
for budgeted productions.

Dominic Jones

12-03-2007, 06:08 AM

- The codec. We didn't test everything but we did go out and get some fast action sports stuff. High School soccer under the lights at night. I never saw a codec problem in the footage. That's not to say it's REDCODE raw. I'm sure it's not. It's just not something that's a visible problem. We were viewing via HD-SDI onto both a JVC 24" reference monitor and a Dell 24" via a BlackMagic HDLINK.
This camera does indeed look very promising, and I'm looking forward to shooting something on one (I'm very much looking forward to getting a 35mm adapter on one, too).

However, it would be nice to have an appraisal of the codec - monitoring live via the HD-SDI output will be (almost certainly) pre-compression, which would explain why it looked so good!

Did you take the same shots in to an NLE yet? I'd love to hear your comments on how that looks vs the live feed you were watching whilst shooting...

Thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed report, always much appreciated.

Jim Arthurs

12-03-2007, 06:33 AM

My gut reaction is that for anything other than a movie you're going to want to test this camera. Even as a B movie camera to RED it could be the ticket. Have to see how it cuts.

Thanks for the info Joel. Certainly a good second camera and if the RED wasn't in the picture, I'd probably be swapping the HVX for it and calling it a day.

Did you have a chance to test the skew of the rolling shutter? Just level up and frame up some vertical lines, set the shutter speed higher to reduce motion blur and "scrub pan" back and forth. If any of the vertical lines have skewed or seem bendy, then that's a non-starter for me...

Petr Dvorak

12-03-2007, 12:55 PM

just some more comparisons - EX1, XH G1, HVX200, Z1J

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genkosha.co.jp%2Fvs%2 Fsp%2F200712%2F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Joel Kaye

12-03-2007, 01:22 PM

If any of the vertical lines have skewed or seem bendy, then that's a non-starter for me...

I didn't specifically test that. I only had a few hours and no light... rainy afternoon/evening. I saw the local high school had lights on and sure enough there was a soccer match. We shot some of the game, some of the crowd, tried 60P, 24P, some fast shutter, some follow and rack focus. I did get out on the long end of the lens to try to follow the action. There was a lot of big pans.

When we got back we watched the clips over and over between two monitors via the HD-SDI and we sure didn't notice anything. I was looking for colors, codec problems and weird edges mostly but I think we would have caught any big bendy or skewed stuff. Rent one and test for yourself when you can. I think all of us see things our own way. RED has a rolling shutter too of course.

I really liked the camera. I'm on the verge of selling my cam and taking that money and putting it into the EX1. RED is just not going to be as practical for a lot of stuff.

On this page is a EX video shot from the inside of an aerobatic plane:
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/xdcamVideoGallery.shtml

Maybe you'll find something in that footage.

Jim Arthurs

12-03-2007, 02:54 PM

Rent one and test for yourself when you can. I think all of us see things our own way. RED has a rolling shutter too of course.

Thanks Joel... looks like someone already has done the test and posted it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_g6cTLzjmc

That's bad, no matter who's eyes you're seeing with.

Now, having said that, has someone done the same test with a RED? I hope rolling shutter testing was part of L.A.R.T. I'm thinking from the various 3D track tests that the REDs shutter is MUCH better, but someone needs to take the RED outside and shake it back and forth... common guys...

Otherwise, I'm pretty impressed with the little Sony. Too much sharpening in the stills posted in the other link, but download the 30p 1080 still and the HVX200 30p 1080 and put them on layers in Photoshop. Flick between them and immediately put your e-bay ad together for your HVX...

Joel Kaye

12-03-2007, 03:10 PM

Thanks Joel... looks like someone already has done the test and posted it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_g6cTLzjmc

That's bad, no matter who's eyes you're seeing with.

Wow. I wonder if that's real - doesn't say who did it and the quality is pretty low. No matter... I'll send that to my friend and get him to do tests. And yes, how would RED handle that is a good question.

Joel Kaye

12-03-2007, 04:14 PM

Thanks Joel... looks like someone already has done the test and posted it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_g6cTLzjmc

That's bad, no matter who's eyes you're seeing with.

My friend said that's got to be a hoax. It's the first test he tried and he's never seen anything like that.

Jim Arthurs

12-03-2007, 04:55 PM

I hope it's a hoax.

Now we just need to see the same kind test done in a verified fashion. Maybe your friend could post his test if he still has it.

Oh, and let's do that to the RED while we're at it...

Weston Ford

12-03-2007, 05:28 PM

Yes I'd like to see proof there isnt CMOS wobbling. I'm much more worried about that than I am over the possibility of vignetting.

Jim Arthurs

12-03-2007, 07:37 PM

Okay, I tracked down the only pan/tilt shot I could find from the Sony camera, did a tripod based 3D track, front projected it into a sphere enviroment and removed the pan/tilt motion from the shot. As far as I can tell, there aren't extreme skew effects happening here... if there were, the long vertical lines in the scene would flex as the shot plays out.

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/EX1/ROLLING_SHUTTER_EX1.mov

However, this is a crap shot and fouled by auto stabilization, a camera that isn't actually locked down, but slid on a table, and god knows what else.

If anyone wants to take one of these cameras outside in the city with straight vertical lines filling frame, shoot a nice pan only shot at full wide where you go with a fast shutter speed and a bit more snappy pan, I'd be glad to track it "real good" and we can put this to bed. Try to get the camera over nodal point, which is easy to tell, simply check to see if near and far objects don't shift against each other. PM me if more info is needed...

I'm sure LART is doing something similar with RED. If not, they should have.

Joel Kaye

12-03-2007, 09:28 PM

If anyone wants to take one of these cameras outside in the city with straight vertical lines filling frame, shoot a nice pan only shot at full wide where you go with a fast shutter speed and a bit more snappy pan, I'd be glad to track it "real good" and we can put this to bed. Try to get the camera over nodal point, which is easy to tell, simply check to see if near and far objects don't shift against each other. PM me if more info is needed...

I'll send your request along and see if my friend can get it done.

Alex.Mitchell

12-03-2007, 10:16 PM

My friend said that's got to be a hoax. It's the first test he tried and he's never seen anything like that.

As the guy who did the test that everyone is getting their panties in a twist about, I'd like to say that, well, it isn't fake. Damnit.

If you'd like to know how I got it to do this and other things, I'll just link the DVXUser thread and quote myself.

Here's the link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=116961 (my results are on page 3)

And here's the quote:

Haha, wow, I go to work for a few hours and this is what happens. Hmmm, intriguing.

Alright, so everyone is saying that this is an HV20? Well, I do have the raw MP4s from the camera sitting right here. I'll try to outline the conditions as best as possible for both the skew and the partial exposure.

When I tested for skew I was shooting 1080 24p with the shutter angle @ 180 degrees. I had it mounted in studio on a pretty beat up boegen 501 head and the lightest pair of sticks around. What I did is aim the EX at something thin and bright, then I zoomed in to about 40mm and panned the camera from left to right. It really wasn't that hard, and you can see the results now. I don't have any webspace to host the raw clip, but if anyone out there can I'll give them the MP4. I don't know if that'll make a difference though, because I'm sure people will just claim that I converted my "HV20" footage or some bullshi* like that.

The flash exposure is a really weird case, and I'll explain it here. We decided that, as a crew, we'd try to fit the EX into our live to tape workflow so we brought it to a basketball game on friday night. The photographers from the campus newspaper must have been there too, because some guy was mounting four flash bulbs around the court: one on the backs of either set of bleachers (one was just left of the camera) and there were also bulbs on either end of the court. They were all synced and went off at the same time. I just happened to be lucky enough to get one on camera. I also have the raw MP4 for that too. For that shoot we were using 1080 60i with the shutter off, although in retrospect I should've shot 720 60p. My bad I guess.

So yeah, I guess I'm a liar or something? Seems kinda weird. I dunno, I guess maybe I thought people would think to take this at face value, but the internet is always full of surprises.

P.S. Everything besides the recording format was set to factory default by the way. Only thing I changed was the video out and I added the 4:3 markers in the LCD.

So there you go.

peter roehsler

12-04-2007, 01:19 AM

a frame-grab 1080p25 - I think this camera will do for TV work ...

Jim Arthurs

12-04-2007, 11:06 AM

just some more comparisons - EX1, XH G1, HVX200, Z1J

I took the EX-1 1080P, EX-1 1080i, and the HVX200 1080P frames and layered them up into a single Photoshop file so you can quickly compare them by turning the various layers on and off.

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/EX1/EX1_sharpnessvrsHVX200.psd

(24megs)

It looks like there is a small but very real quality increase in the EX-1 1080P over the interlaced (as expected), and the difference in detail and dynamic range over the HVX is almost criminal.

Even with the high level of sharpening on all the samples, it's clear that there is some bang for buck with the EX-1. I would love to compare resolution here to RED 2K windowed.

Of course, there are many, many, many areas that the quality of the RED overshadows this little 8-bit wonder, but I'd hate to be someone who bought into the higher end Sony ED HDCAM 350 line of cameras. It's clear you get most all the benefits and a full raster imager without the $20K + price tag.

ahusain

12-04-2007, 09:47 PM

i can corroborate alex's experience:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1116224&postcount=43

i've been a bit too busy to post the footage, but i should do that at some point.

it's easy to show jello-like rolling shutter distortion on the ex1:
(1) zoom into any rectangular object
(2) jiggle the camera mostly up and down

you'll see the distortion on the LCD and on the mp4 footage. there's no way you can miss it.

this camera won't work for shakey shots (handheld shakey, helicopter shakey, etc.). i bet the red won't either (correct me if i'm wrong). probably not many of us shoot like that. if you have this camera and you really need a shakey shot you can just rent an xh-a1: with that much shaking the footage will be indistinguishable.

As the guy who did the test that everyone is getting their panties in a twist about, I'd like to say that, well, it isn't fake. Damnit.

If you'd like to know how I got it to do this and other things, I'll just link the DVXUser thread and quote myself.

Here's the link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=116961 (my results are on page 3)

And here's the quote:

So there you go.

Weston Ford

12-05-2007, 12:12 AM

this camera won't work for shakey shots (handheld shakey, helicopter shakey, etc.)

Will reasonable handheld shots...such as the style of the ones in Schindlers List show any rolling shutter distortion? Or do you really have to go crazy with the shaking to notice.

Craig W. Bickerstaff

12-05-2007, 01:02 AM

Will reasonable handheld shots...such as the style of the ones in Schindlers List show any rolling shutter distortion? Or do you really have to go crazy with the shaking to notice.

They must have done some funky stuff to get that effect if it's in fact real.
But considering I saw no signs of such distortion when I used the camera not to mention in all the footage I've seen I'm going to say you'd be pretty safe.

Fix

12-05-2007, 03:44 AM

I have experience with cmos chips for about 2 years and never encounter such a evident problem shown in the youtube video. Bet you can do some pretty shaky stuff with the EX-1 and only a handfull of people will notice the wobling effect, if any. As Alex put it. Its there (because of the cmos...), but most of the time only to a minor extent IMO.

There are some videos on the net showing som major wobling effects. Surprising as it may seem, maybe they just coming from some bad units.. You can do a "The bourne ultimatium" flick with a Cmos chip anytime. And thats a darn shaky shot movie, if you know what I mean.

Joel Kaye

12-05-2007, 08:39 AM

As the guy who did the test that everyone is getting their panties in a twist about, I'd like to say that, well, it isn't fake. Damnit.

Hey Alex. Thanks for posting that and straightening things out. (maybe "straightening things out" isn't the best choice of words really).

Finner

12-05-2007, 10:36 AM

Matt, Manny, Billy and I did rolling shutter tests at LART. I am under NDA though and do not know if I can say any more then that?

Fix

12-06-2007, 03:30 AM

Finner, we would love to know the result from that test. Give us some more input when you have the chance. thx.

Mark Pugh

12-06-2007, 04:32 AM

Can anyone say WHY there is an NDA over LART?

sceneeast

12-06-2007, 04:49 AM

I was considering getting Sony's EX-1 as second camera for the RED. I have heard on other website about Sony's EX-1 Vignette problem. So I ask a friend of mine to attend DV West for me and check it out. He went yesterday because I am in New York and could not attend.

He spent a lot of time at the Sony booth and was just about 100% convinced about the EX-1. That was until he got home and watched their marketing video. At first glance he was like Wow Pretty etc etc. But the more he watched it, the more he saw macro-blocking large blocks of square pixels in the sky and in some of the backgrounds in the talking heads shots.

He Said, "The funny thing is that they had some shots during the interviews of some stuff shot on a subway, and so does my sample DVD shot with HVX200. Slow shutter artifacts are plainly evident in Sony’s own video!" "But not on mine."

"So now I am conflicted, either a billion dollar company can't properly down res their own stuff to standard def DVD, or is their actually a problem."

"So I am confused, yet still pleasantly pleased with my cameras HVX200 capabilities."

"Now if Sony screwed up, that will have to be seen."

Has anyone else gotten this marketing video and seen this problem or has the camera and have the same down res problem. What about the Vignette problem?

Bob

Craig W. Bickerstaff

12-06-2007, 05:05 AM

sceneeast

12-06-2007, 05:11 AM

Thanks for info. Bob