Dropped Frame Meter

[roryhinds]

what is the Dropped Frame Meter for?

Why would the camera drop frames?
Surely thats not a good thing...

(I understand why drop frames happen due to lack of data record playback speed, but its a worry that this can happen with RED)

[Mark L. Pederson]

what is the Dropped Frame Meter for?

Why would the camera drop frames?
Surely thats not a good thing...

(I understand why drop frames happen due to lack of data record playback speed, but its a worry that this can happen with RED)

I can only assume - most likley - this is to alert you should it happen due to excessive movement / vibration when shooting with the forthcoming REDDRIVES.

[Stuart English]

Well its just there to alert you to any dropped frames (of course) ....

Why could that happen? - There could be excessive shock to certain types of media, and if anyone has to use an available CF card which has lower data throughput than the RED CF cards, it would be good to know if a frame got dropped. e.g. you might be able to get away in an emergency with using a non-RED CF card for 2K 23.98 fps but not in varispeed record at 72 fps.

[roryhinds]

so using RED media guarantees no drop frames?

[I Bloom]

so using RED media guarantees no drop frames?
It sounds like under excessive stress a RED mechanical drive, could drop frames. Not so under normal circumstances.

RED CF would be immune to such stress and would not drop frames.

[ericyoung]

Well its just there to alert you to any dropped frames (of course) ....

Why could that happen? - There could be excessive shock to certain types of media, and if anyone has to use an available CF card which has lower data throughput than the RED CF cards, it would be good to know if a frame got dropped. e.g. you might be able to get away in an emergency with using a non-RED CF card for 2K 23.98 fps but not in varispeed record at 72 fps.

You know what would be really useful? If frames are dropped, then some metadata that records the timecode at that point would be great. It'd save having to search a whole clip for single corrupted frames and you'd know if those dropped frames occurred during a vital part of the take or only in the bit where the director was giving a note or had already called cut.

[roryhinds]

drop frames on a camera are bad news.
either the camera can record at the selected frame rate or it can't.

[Graeme Nattress]

Well, for years we've recorded to tape, and it's only when we got to the edit suite did we find out if we had drop outs, etc. I think it's great that RED the camera, like RED the company tells you the honest truth....

Graeme

[redicule]

The dropped frame meter warns you if grips or lighting have rigged a 4X4 or similar nearby that could fall and damage the camera. Can anyone from Red confirm what range this meter has and what the smallest and largest frame sizes it can detect are?

[Mike Prevette]

12x12

[ericyoung]

drop frames on a camera are bad news.
either the camera can record at the selected frame rate or it can't.

Even if it can, the card may be faulty or damaged, contacts may become dirty, etc. It never fails to amaze me how some crews can break the toughest gear!

[Rob Lohman]

drop frames on a camera are bad news.
either the camera can record at the selected frame rate or it can't.

How do you propose to do this with a hard disk based media?

[roryhinds]

certify the drives to capture a certain frame rate up to a percentage of capacity of the drive.

Sure I except if your shooting to spinning discs and the drive gets nocked or there is excessive movement there will be a problem. So shooting to flash is the way.

A reliable shooting platform is needed. Try telling clients we may or may not be shooting at full frame rate and frames might be dropped during shooting... they won't like it.

Reliability is vital.

It has still to be clarified what the drop frame counter is intended for.
(Only for spinning discs?)

[Nils Ruinet]

It has still to be clarified what the drop frame counter is intended for.
(Only for spinning discs?)

Imagine you have to use uncertified CF cards. This feature can be useful to check if this card works with redcode or not...

Also, a problem on a drive or card can always occur, why wouldn't you want to know about it as soon as it happens ? Better than finding out during post...

Graeme, what happens if you have a dropped frame ? Does the camera duplicate the previous frame ?

[Stuart English]

The metadata knows if you did drop a frame, so the choice is there what to do about that - either in post or re-shoot that clip. The issue about the meter is NOT that RED media drops frames, we make sure that the data rates used for each resolution and frame rate makes that very unlikely to happen, but there are going be situations where people will use 3rd party media, or take inappropriate media into a situation (hard disks into an F16) where its better to know than not to know, if a frame gets dropped.

[Rob Lohman]

certify the drives to capture a certain frame rate up to a percentage of capacity of the drive.

That's what we do!


Sure I except if your shooting to spinning discs and the drive gets nocked or there is excessive movement there will be a problem. So shooting to flash is the way.

That's exactly why it's there (or when you inserted flash that's too slow [ie, non RED media] or might be bad).


A reliable shooting platform is needed. Try telling clients we may or may not be shooting at full frame rate and frames might be dropped during shooting... they won't like it.

That's not what we're doing at all. We just give you warnings in case problems do happen so you can act on them while you're still on set instead of find out about it in post.


Reliability is vital.

Exactly. But you can always have problems (maybe the CF card is not seated properly), hence it's good to tell you there are issues.


It has still to be clarified what the drop frame counter is intended for.
(Only for spinning discs?)

Do my explanations above help?

[Finner]

Exactly. But you can always have problems (maybe the CF card is not seated properly), hence it's good to tell you there are issues.

Rob this brings up something that I keep forgetting to bring up. Since I worked with a red many months ago I became concerned with the CF port. The CF card slot is fairly large and a little sloppy which brings up a concern of bent pins. Other products CF ports I have worked with have much tighter tollerances and guides for the CF card to slide in and pop off with less care needed and often time is a luxury that we do not have on set so more of a dummy proof system would be better.

Thanks

[Wes Printz]

so using RED media guarantees no drop frames?

I don't think RED or any media provider can make a guarantee like that! There are too many variables in the field. It may minimize room for error, as Checksums are performed, R/W speed etc... Even in tape, no manufacturer makes a statement guaranteeing NO dropouts.. I recall one brand had a statement "fewer dropouts than others" I've not seen a statement where film cameras are guaranteed to shoot 24 FPS by their manufacturers.

That's why, I'm sure the team has specifications for media compatible for use with the camera to optimize data storage. That's like FORD guaranteeing you will not have an accident in one of their vehicles.

[Ryan Manes]

RED # 38 is Dropping Frames Consistently.
In Fact I can only get it to stop by shooting 2K.
This is a recent problem.
Shooting 4K 2/1 23.98 audio Channel 1 active
Shooting to RED 8-gig CF card.
This may have something to do with build 12 that we installed.

Another thing thats weird is that if i try to put in a card while the camera is already on,
it glitches out and reboots itself, or tries to anyway.
We're making preparations to send it back for our X version hopefully that will fix it.
Any one else experience this?

[Häakon]

Another thing thats weird is that if i try to put in a card while the camera is already on,
it glitches out and reboots itself, or tries to anyway.
We're making preparations to send it back for our X version hopefully that will fix it.
Any one else experience this?

I never experienced dropped frames, but I definitely had to deal with the reboot glitches and other strange anomalies. The verdict was that the CF module was faulty - apparently this was the case on several of the early numbered cameras. Once I let RED know about the problem, they replaced the CF module for free and I have not had any problems since. I didn't have the time to wait for the "X" version to arrive, but I assume that your updated model will completely solve the problem.

[Greg M]

RED # 38 is Dropping Frames Consistently.
In Fact I can only get it to stop by shooting 2K.
This is a recent problem.
Shooting 4K 2/1 23.98 audio Channel 1 active
Shooting to RED 8-gig CF card.
This may have something to do with build 12 that we installed.

Another thing thats weird is that if i try to put in a card while the camera is already on,
it glitches out and reboots itself, or tries to anyway.
We're making preparations to send it back for our X version hopefully that will fix it.
Any one else experience this?

Never had dropped frame problems. I would suggest you ship the camera back to Red for service, this is not normal.

I had some power issues and they handled it promptly.

[LighthouseMEdia]

Agreed!!! Let me know in the field while I can fix it!! Just another great innovation!

[Rich Schaefer]

Where is the drop-frame meter?

I found it! It would be cool if it was also on the body's display!

[Phil D]

I can't ever remember a 35/16 mm film camera telling you it was scratching your film as it whizzed through the gate, or that it was leaking light and fogging your film, or that the film was making a concertina inside the camera of your last take, until it was to late and your work was ruined.

The fact Red tells you when something has gone wrong should save a lot of time, money, and waisted work. Lets not gripe at a feature designed to assist us.

[Rob Lohman]

Did you try recording to a different Compact Flash card?

[Ryan Manes]

Today 12:43 PM
Did you try recording to a different Compact Flash card
Rob Lohman



Yea multiple cards, frame rates, audio channels, resolutions.
All different configurations.
It seemed to be okay when shooting 2K but thats it.

It's in a box now on its way back to RED for the X cam switch out,
so I fully expect to not have to worry about it any more,
but if you guys wanna fiddle with #38 just to understand it go for it,
it's your camera now. :biggrin: