Red Raid

[HD Hildebrand]

Are there any thoughts on having removable drives in the Red Raid like the cineporter plans?

Check this new link:

http://www.spec-comm.com/cineporter.php

[Billy Summers]

hmm...:confused:

[Brook Willard]

Are you referring to the big honkin' RED RAID for recording uncompressed RAW? Or the "RED DRIVE" mini-RAID for recording REDCODE RAW?

[HD Hildebrand]

Red mini drive, or as it states on the Red accessories page - Red Drive / Red Raid:

http://red.com/accessories.htm

[Holosynthetic]

big honkin'? just how big will this RAID be? I was considering the purchase of it seeing as how I will be doing lots O 3d animation and I would fancy some 4.5k uncompressed raw footage.

[MikeCurtis]

removable drives - the data rates for Red are so high, I would GUESS that they'd have to spec the drive themselves so you don't put an underperforming drive in it. Cineporter etc. are working with datarates that are small fractions of what Red Drive will have to deal with.

I'm guessing, but I do know a fair bit about drives and the publicly stated data rates of Redcode RAW.

[Brook Willard]

Well, we know that the RED RAID will have the ability to capture some ~900MB/s [correct me if I'm wrong, team]. So 900MB/s is just over 50GB/min or just north of 3TB/hour.

RED RAID will not be small. Will it be a fridge? I doubt it.

And as for the RED DRIVE mini RAID? I imagine they're far enough along that they've selected the internal drives already [which we know to be 2x 160GB 2.5" drives as of the last update].

[Holosynthetic]

Solid state disks for the mini raid?

[Brook Willard]

I don't believe so.

[Tom Lowe]

Red-RAID mini doesn't record overcranked 4K out of the RAW data port? It's just for REDCODE.

4K overcranking (31fps and above) can only be done on a regular, big old RAID tower, right? Old school style.

[Brook Willard]

It's not the "red RAID mini," the product name is "RED DRIVE". I only add "mini RAID" to the end of that to clarify that the "DRIVE" contains two separate drives to assure fast enough recording.

You are correct. The product "RED RAID" is large, cannot be mounted on the camera, interfaces via the RAW Data Port and is used for recording uncompressed RAW 2K at up to 120fps and uncompressed RAW 4K or 4.5K at up to 60fps.

We do not know how large the RED RAID is, how much it will cost or how much storage it has. We simply know that this is the larger external RAID for recording high data rates.

See the attachments for visual clarification.

The formats listed on the attached images do not represent all available formats and should be disregarded

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Solid state disks for the mini raid?

Probably not at launch time, but in the future, there's a good chance of it. 2.5" HDD form-factor flash drives are coming this year in 128GB capacities - they were demonstrated at CES. Looks like late this year and about double the price of a 160GB hard drive. Don't forget that perpendicular recording tech is going second-gen this year with 2.5" and 1.8" HDDs too, so we should see 320GB notebook drives with magnetic platters. In other words, by the end of this year, off the shelf tech could potentially allow for RED DRIVE (mini RAID) units in 256GB capacity based on FLASH media and/or 600+GB capacities based on magnetic hard drive tech.

Upcoming FLASH tech should prove to be a huge deal for RED. I'm curious to see what they come up with in regards to their FLASH module and if it's going to truly be necessary over the next year or so as FLASH products continue to mature at an increasing rate -- meaning that RED DRIVE and RED FLASH could eventually (within the next couple years) converge into the same product..

[Patrick Jennings]

"The product "RED RAID" is large, cannot be mounted on the camera, interfaces via the RAW Data Port and is used for recording uncompressed RAW 2K at up to 120fps and uncompressed RAW 4K or 4.5K at up to 60fps."


does this mean the "controller" of the RED DRIVE in separate from the camera?

all the compression and recording controls are on the actual RED DRIVE?

all that connects the camera and the RED DRIVE is an uncompressed RAW 2k feed?



if this is true, does that mean we could hook up any 1080 HDMI or HD-SDI feed straight to the RED DRIVE?

[Brook Willard]

No. The REDCODE compression is handled by a processor inside of the camera. The RED DRIVE merely stores the compressed REDCODE [RAW or RGB] footage. I don't actually know where you got that concept from my post...?

RED DRIVE can handle REDCODE compressed footage only. It cannot handle uncompressed data of any kind. Again, the compression takes place inside of the camera.

RED RAID is designed for uncompressed data. We do not know much more.


RED DRIVE - Small, can be mounted onboard, 320GB, interfaces via small port on rear of camera body.
4K REDCODE RAW [35mm] at up to 30p
2K REDCODE RAW [S16mm] at up to 60p
1080p REDCODE RGB [35mm] at up to 60p
1080p REDCODE RGB [S16mm] at up to 60p
1080p REDCODE RGB [2/3" B4] at up to 60p
720p REDCODE RGB [35mm] at up to 60p
720p REDCODE RGB [S16mm] at up to 120p
720p REDCODE RGB [2/3" B4] at up to 120p

RED RAID - Big, cannot be mounted onboard, unknown storage, interfaces via RAW Data Port.
4.5K Uncompressed RAW [S35mm] at up to 60p
4K Uncompressed RAW [35mm] at up to 60p
2K Uncompressed RAW [S16mm] at up to 120p
No official word on lesser formats

This should clarify things.

I should note that all of this data is available on RED's official website. (http://red.com/formatoptions.htm)

[Andrew M.]

What is the interface type of RED RAW data port interface unit?

[Rob Lohman]

optical

[Andrew M.]

optical

any standard format?
single fiber? dual fiber?
10GBase
10GFC
How fast?

[Chris Forbes]

is it a ruggedized fiber channel connection?

[Rob Lohman]

We can't give you any more details, otherwise we would've already done so.

Obviously it needs to support at least 900 MB/s (max resolution & frame rate)

[Andrew M.]

So it is 10GB.
The question is?
10GBase or 10GFC or Apple Xserv RAID like SFP Fiber Channel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SFP_transceiver
Must be one of these.
I would bet on SFP

[Jeff Brue]

10 GB fibre to my knowledge doesn't support that kind of data rate.Not at least with any kind of OS overhead, the machines and the hard drives just arn't there ( i know i build SANs amongst other things). The min you would need mechanically is a 40 drive enclosure. But if anyone can do it I'm sure Jim's team can, i just know some of the engineering headaches they're already facing are only going to get more monstrous when that system is going to be taken out of the Lab and onto set.

[Andrew M.]

10 GB fibre to my knowledge doesn't support that kind of data rate.Not at least with any kind of OS overhead, the machines and the hard drives just arn't there ( i know i build SANs amongst other things). The min you would need mechanically is a 40 drive enclosure. But if anyone can do it I'm sure Jim's team can, i just know some of the engineering headaches they're already facing are only going to get more monstrous when that system is going to be taken out of the Lab and onto set.

What about Apple or Sun system?
Should do the job with 12 disks?

[Chris Forbes]

We can't give you any more details, otherwise we would've already done so.

Obviously it needs to support at least 900 MB/s (max resolution & frame rate)

Is that 900 MBytes not Mbits . . . per second? "Holy bandwidth, Batman"

[Vlado Struhar]

What about Apple or Sun system?
Should do the job with 12 disks?

I think you could reach 500MB/s max. with 12 drives.

[Rob Lohman]

Yes, megabytes per second, not mbits.

[Chris Forbes]

So that is 7200 megabits\sec if my math is right. What are the other data rates?

REDCODE is 27 megabytes\sec 220 megabits\sec is that constant?

[Andrew M.]

I think you could reach 500MB/s max. with 12 drives.

Bit more in the config where each drive takes only one bit of data.
Since we can pack 12 bits very fast in the RED case.

[Chris Armstrong]

Ciprico has a relatively new raid product that supposedly can do 1.5GB/s, though they use a bunch of 2.5" laptop drives. Great if you're looking for something that is physically small, but not so great if you're wanting a large storage array.

MediaVault 4440:
http://www.ciprico.com/Products/MediaVault.cfm#MediaVault_4440

[Chris Forbes]

Ciprico has a relatively new raid product that supposedly can do 1.5GB/s, though they use a bunch of 2.5" laptop drives. Great if you're looking for something that is physically small, but not so great if you're wanting a large storage array.

MediaVault 4440:
http://www.ciprico.com/Products/MediaVault.cfm#MediaVault_4440

If they have that much through-put it wouldn't take anything to scale the storage up.

How loud do you think those Raids are going to be? Need some ADR loud I bet.

So how long of cable can you get for that much bandwidth? Camera to video village.

[Jeff Brue]

One note that ciprico is a 4 port 4 Gb device. So its out. Its just one of those things, by the time you account for overhead youd really need a device capable of 15 Gbs a second. Again its doable if they go with infiniband, otherwise I also wouldnt say a custom optical connector isnt out of the realm of question.

But at that point youre talking about some very hard technology.

[Chris Forbes]

But at that point you're talking about some very hard technology.

I think we past that point a while ago :bye2: next stop bleeding edge. I think I'm getting a gadget buzz on.

[Corrado Silveri]

Something like:

http://www.keisoku.co.jp/en/product/vw/recorder/udr20e/index.html

?

[Jeff Brue]

Something like it but its not a single fibre port device....maybe the red team is thinking along the lines of some kind of external optical to quad link HD-SDI interface but even thats broken by the idea of recording 4.5k.

In any case its still too low bandwidth 807.5 MB/s + 10% for disk overhead is the magic number for 4.5k raw uncompressed at 60 fps.

Just like everything else they've set themselves a challenge, i've got a bit of faith though.

[Simon Blackledge]

But then you need to decide if you want it protected :-/ Were just ordering a new av raid.. it's a nightmare!

1x raid 10disks >twin e-sata (raid0) 450Mbs so 2 cards +20 disks..900Mbs

with the one we ordered you can do raid5 but it drops to 320Mbs.

still not enough! :-0

[Jeff Brue]

the raid slow down in speed can be solved just by adding more disks and cards, really youre looking at a 40 drive raid 50 to hit those speeds in a direct attached mode.. Otherwise you're gonna look at heading into SAN land.

[david farland]

Doesn't make sense to have storage >1TB available at 1GB/sec.

It would be a low volume/high bandwidth cache device feeding a higher volume/low bandwidth san or similiar.

Dave,

[Chris Forbes]

It is fairly common to combine a raid 0 and a raid 5 into a single array so you have the speed of one and the redundancy of the other. Or just go SSD all the way.

http://www.superssd.com/products/ramsan-400/

[Gregory Leno]

It is fairly common to combine a raid 0 and a raid 5 into a single array so you have the speed of one and the redundancy of the other. Or just go SSD all the way.

http://www.superssd.com/products/ramsan-400/

I'm afraid to ask how much that baby is?

But...OK... How much is it?

~G

[Jarred Land]

Something like:

http://www.keisoku.co.jp/en/product/vw/recorder/udr20e/index.html

?

we have actually been using the "KG" box alot in house to play back 4k uncompressed, and thats the box we used to power the projector for the Nuart screening.

[Brook Willard]

You guys must have some really great toys in there...