Pull List

[Brenton]

(following on from a conversation started in "Subtle bugs in redcine" http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6305")

We all know that RedCine will support a Pull List function. But is that an EDL Pull List like we're all familiar with (film scanning/neg cuttin, etc) or will it functionally just load the whole shots used into a library?

I understand the functional issues of fully supporting EDLs and leaving it to better suited online systems and am not expecting full EDL support from RedCine.

What I am expecting is the ability to read a simple cuts only EDL.
Reading an EDL and generating a pull list with handles would be gravy :)

In the interim if it only pulls the shots that'll at least save the time of doing it manually, but it must ultimately be able to select the shots with in/outs to prevent the wasted transfer and storage of the unused portions of the shots, at least until R3D becomes an accessible format amongst many applications.

Regards

B

[Mike Prevette]

I hope he means Redcine won't actually conform your EDL for you, it will just load all the footage requested. Hopefully with in/outs. We need to be patient at this point and see how much they are willing to give us for free.

[David Battistella]

I hope he means Redcine won't actually conform your EDL for you, it will just load all the footage requested. Hopefully with in/outs. We need to be patient at this point and see how much they are willing to give us for free.

Mike,

I think you have a good point. If they make it easy to work with they might get more people adopting it quicker.

There have been formats that have crashed (M2, BETAMAX) for being just a bit to tight.

In the early going I think it is really important to do everything they can to make RED stick in the marketplace.

If they gave us exactly what you described in your post they could turn around and say, "We've made it very simple for you to integrate the highest quality RED footage into your workflow." They have done this with RED ALERT and QT and that is going to rock people.

David

[Brenton]

I hope he means Redcine won't actually conform your EDL for you, it will just load all the footage requested. Hopefully with in/outs. We need to be patient at this point and see how much they are willing to give us for free.
Correct. I'm not looking for RedCine to replace my [DI conform box of choice].

I agree about being patient. What I am trying to find out is if my interpretation of a Pull List and RED's is the same or not.

Creating a pull list with in/outs or creating a pull list with whole shots will affect how much time, storage and human resources I need to assign to future RED transfers.

Regards,

B

[MichaelP]

The ability to create a pull list will most likely be generated by the NLE based on the events from the timeline. Here is a link to a full set of lists I used for Cinematographer Style which went through a scan and DI process:
http://www.24p.com/FilmScribeOutput/CStyleAssembly060105_Scan.htm
This particular list was done based on Camera Roll and KeyKode, but source metadata can be whatever the user chooses - TC, DPX, File names, any or all of these combined dependent on source type and the list already contains the requested handles (user defined).

This particular list was saved out as HTML set directly so that everyone involved with the production could access the conform information as needed. But the same set of list(s) can be generated as TAB, or XML for easier parsing and import into REDCINE to any downstream conform application.

These were generated from Avid FilmScribe v.2.1.

Michael

[David Battistella]

Would a PULL list do this?

Preferred workflow

CUT QT PROXY IN FCP>
open XML in REDCINE relink to r3d>
output flat/onelight 2K DPX version with 10 frame handles
Open DPX in any number apps for finish before filmout or HD mastering.

Make sense?

David

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i think what lucas mentioned here, is a good overview of how the workflow with the Pull list would be.

.................................................. ............................................
Hey David,

All good points... but.... I think you misunderstand something.

RED has repeatedly said that Redcine WILL have a Pull List capability that allows you to take list information from FCP or Avid, import that to Redcine, and then use that information to cull footage into a timeline that can be output to DPX for any other DI application.

Let's say you're using Clipster as your conform station, and editing in FCP. The workflow would be:

1) Edit in FCP
2) Export EDL / XML / whatever it will end up being
3) Import XML / whatever it will end up being to REDCINE
4) "Conform" Pull List in REDCINE
5) Export DPX with embedded timecode in headers
6) Import DPX to Clipster
7) Import EDL to Clipster and conform from DPX

The advantage that SCRATCH gives is that you don't need steps 4 - 6 as SCRATCH natively supports R3D.

There are currently quite a few post facilities in LA working on RED projects. I know personally of the following workflows:

1) Edit FCP -> Conform SCRATCH -> Color/Finish SCRATCH
2) Edit FCP -> Conform SCRATCH -> Color/Finish Pablo
3) Edit Avid -> Conform REDCINE -> Color/Finish Lustre
4) Edit Avid -> Conform REDCINE -> Color/Finish Resolve
5) Edit FCP -> Color/Finish FCP.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

.................................................. .................................

you could change clipster for after effects, color, or any other finishing tool.
i think, if the workflow lucas has shown becomes reality soon, its pretty good for a free tool.

ok, you get all the shots you need as DPX and then you use your EDL for these.

After this type of PULL LIST is intergrated into redcine...the needed transcoding time and storage space gets important.

But i have one FCP workflow question, if i use the quicktime wrappers made by redalert, which are linked to the original r3d. files, as offline editing source, then import the EDL to redcine and output DPX, how can i "tell" my di tool:

ok di Tool, you see the EDL and the wrappers? Cool...You know what? This time the "source" files are the created dpx from redcine and not the r3d files.
EXACTLY: How do i say my di tool of choice, come on , conform from DPX?

BTW HOW CAN I QUOTE FROM ANOTHER THREAD?

[MichaelP]

[QUOTE=K.Berlin;115503]
2) Export EDL / XML / whatever it will end up being
3) Import XML / whatever it will end up being to REDCINE
QUOTE]

Lucas - it is these two small steps that need to be defined... When is "whenever" and "whatever" planned?


Michael

[Curran Giddens]

But i have one FCP workflow question, if i use the quicktime wrappers made by redalert, which are linked to the original r3d. files, as offline editing source, then import the EDL to redcine and output DPX, how can i "tell" my di tool:

ok di Tool, you see the EDL and the wrappers? Cool...You know what? This time the "source" files are the created dpx from redcine and not the r3d files.
EXACTLY: How do i say my di tool of choice, come on , conform from DPX?

I think after you export the DPX you will have to create a new EDL to import into the DI tool of choice. The new EDL would point to the DPX files.

[Mike Prevette]

Or like I mentioned in another thread make a sequential series of folders. With the frames of each shot in them. Then you just import the folders in order and there is your cut.

[Mark L. Pederson]

I think after you export the DPX you will have to create a new EDL to import into the DI tool of choice. The new EDL would point to the DPX files.

I skimm'd this thread - so sorry of I am missing the concept here - but DPX holds the meta-data (time-code and reel#) - so .... not sure why you are talking about a "new edl". You can use the EDL right out of Avid or FCP (or any other NLE)
on a DPX conform (as long as you created your DPX's correctly)

[David Battistella]

Mark,

So you have to create DPX files of the WHOLE r3d file, not just the frames you used.

I guess you could manually, shot for shot, manually input the in's and out's in REDCINE.

Is that the idea?

[Brenton]

But i have one FCP workflow question, if i use the quicktime wrappers made by redalert, which are linked to the original r3d. files, as offline editing source, then import the EDL to redcine and output DPX, how can i "tell" my di tool:

ok di Tool, you see the EDL and the wrappers? Cool...You know what? This time the "source" files are the created dpx from redcine and not the r3d files.
EXACTLY: How do i say my di tool of choice, come on , conform from DPX?

Short answer : Read the manual / talk to the support desk / ask in a user-forum.

Longer answer : An EDL is purely a reference to a given frame at a given time from a given source for a given duration.

DPXs have the ability to contain metadata (Tape/Reel & Timecode for example) which if exported correctly will match the Quicktime wrappers & your EDL.
(I know the Tape/Reel is not transferring at the moment but there are ways to get this information into FCP/Avid)

An EDL will tell the DI box what 'Tape' & what 'Timecode' it is looking for.

When the [DI box of choice] (Smoke in my case) loads the EDL, I then point it at the DPX files, it reads the 'Tape/Reel' & 'Timecode' from the DPX header & bingo!* one project conformed. *only a slight over-simplification of the ease of the process, but it's not that challenging :biggrin:

It's all part of the process that we do as online editors.


Mark,

So you have to create DPX files of the WHOLE r3d file, not just the frames you used.

I guess you could manually, shot for shot, manually input the in's and out's in REDCINE.

Is that the idea?

This is what I'm trying to figure out with this thread :)

Having to transfer the whole shot regardless of what's used is wasteful in terms of man hours (enterring In/Outs) and storage (unused portions of shots).

I'm hoping it's closer to your earlier post.

Regards

B

[Curran Giddens]

I skimm'd this thread - so sorry of I am missing the concept here - but DPX holds the meta-data (time-code and reel#) - so .... not sure why you are talking about a "new edl". You can use the EDL right out of Avid or FCP (or any other NLE) on a DPX conform (as long as you created your DPX's correctly)


When the [DI box of choice] (Smoke in my case) loads the EDL, I then point it at the DPX files, it reads the 'Tape/Reel' & 'Timecode' from the DPX header & bingo!* one project conformed. *only a slight over-simplification of the ease of the process, but it's not that challenging :biggrin:



I was blind, but now I can see the light. Thanks!

[mezmo]

I skimm'd this thread - so sorry of I am missing the concept here - but DPX holds the meta-data (time-code and reel#) - so .... not sure why you are talking about a "new edl". You can use the EDL right out of Avid or FCP (or any other NLE)
on a DPX conform (as long as you created your DPX's correctly)

Hi Mark,
Doesn't that depend on what Redcine pulls. If it only pulls whole shots
then another new EDL will need to be created by Redcine so you can conform
DPX in your conform box of choice. Similar to Excaliber the film neg cut software.
Not an expert just thinking out loud.
Mezmo

[mezmo]

Hi Mark,
Me again. Pulling whole shots has to give the max flexibility
in final conform. Redcine has never been touted as a conform Ap.
Me thinks this has to be the way they'll go.
Mezmo.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Course in a dream world I would love REDCine to look at the EDL. Compile a pull list and a frame range.

Export only the frames/frame blocks. that are needed, add a slate to the header and then modify the EDL to the new clip lengths and names.

*stops dreaming*

[MichaelP]

I believe the goal is to provide a pull list from the NLE which contains the source metadata and the desired handles - from there RedCine loads the file and exports just the frames indicated as DPX or other format as needed. NLE's already generate pull lists - it is a matter of defining the format needed to import into RedCine. There are multiple levels of defining a span of frames depending on source format being used and how one goes about retrieving those sources:

1. The shot as used in the composition (the cut)
2. The shot as used in the composition with handles (pull list with or without handles - user defined)
3. The entire source of the shot (flash to flash for film, entire source file for file based formats - scene pull list)
4. Camera Roll
5. Lab Roll

For example, the XML export from Avid that will soon be available contains all of the above on a per shot basis on a per event basis so downstream processes can pull, process and conform from a single list. Transforms can be applied to create subsets of metadata for specific purposes. How this metadata gets used will be entirely up to manufacturers, but all metadata will be available for parsing to get from point A to point B. And C, and D, etc.

Michael

[Nick Shaw]

The way I would like to see it work with FCP is to be able to media manage a sequence to an offline consolidated version with handles (just as you do to prep for a tape conform) then export the new "Master Clips" bin as XML. Redcine could then read that XML, and create a Redcine project with those clips in, with per shot in and out points from the XML. Ideally it would also set the Redcine output settings so that the rendered files would corespond to the names in the "Master Clips" bin. This would require filename settings on a per clip basis in Redcine, which I believe is not currently the case. Then you could tweak as desired in Redcine, render, then just re-link in FCP.

I know I'm making this sound simple, and I'm sure the implementation is far from simple, but I thought I'd just lay out how I'd like it to work.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I believe the goal is to provide a pull list from the NLE which contains the source metadata and the desired handles - from there RedCine loads the file and exports just the frames indicated as DPX or other format as needed. NLE's already generate pull lists - it is a matter of defining the format needed to import into RedCine. There are multiple levels of defining a span of frames depending on source format being used and how one goes about retrieving those sources:

1. The shot as used in the composition (the cut)
2. The shot as used in the composition with handles (pull list with or without handles - user defined)
3. The entire source of the shot (flash to flash for film, entire source file for file based formats - scene pull list)
4. Camera Roll
5. Lab Roll

For example, the XML export from Avid that will soon be available contains all of the above on a per shot basis on a per event basis so downstream processes can pull, process and conform from a single list. Transforms can be applied to create subsets of metadata for specific purposes. How this metadata gets used will be entirely up to manufacturers, but all metadata will be available for parsing to get from point A to point B. And C, and D, etc.

Michael

Wow. So let me dig back in time to my old original "pre-redcine-annoucement-feature requests"

So with this I would export an SD proxy of all footage from REDCine. (practically real-time if you use the 1/4 LQ setting)
Edit in Avid.
Export a pull list from avid.
REDCine could pretty trivially be told exactly which frames the i/o points should be set to (including fades/transparencies?) and export only those.
Avid would then be able to export a new OMF with the trimmed online footage which I could then import into a Nitris system, Combustion or smoke system?

REDCine already can export within a in and out mark. It would be TRIVIAL to load two pieces of metadata from the XML file for each pull entry and set the input and output points. I imagine on the order of 1-2 days of work.

RED Make it Happen! If you don't, for the love of God, please make REDCine command line driven so that I can write something over a weekend in python and do it myself.