Lav mic comparison

[Michael Panfeld]

Hi: notwithstanding form factor/size differences, how would you rate the following lavs in terms of overall sound quality and in ability to mix with a boom or shotgun mic (obviously lavs and boom/shotguns are different animals to begin with). They all are being used in tv/film by pros. All are uber expensive, something talent doesn't realize when they nonchalently attempt to un-mike themselves (grrrhhh!).

Sanken COS-11
DPA 4071
Sennheiser MKE2
Countryman B6
Sonotrim

Thanks

[Dave Blackham]

Tram mics need adding to that list, they match they well to Sennheiser MKH series mics.

[Erich Roland]

yes Trams.

I have no clue and probably couldnt tell the diff myself, but I do pay attention to what the recordist pro's use and more often then any other brand I see them using Tram.

[Michael Panfeld]

@Elsi: Thanks, but this is purely about sound quality. Money is irrelevant in my question.

@Erich and Dave: Sonotrim is Tram. The Sonotrim is the Tram lav model specifically designed for film dialog.

[Dave Blackham]

There are a number of reasons for Trams. One is they are easy to rig due to the form factor the another is they match Sennheiser MKH and also Schoeps well too, Ive never had one fail in heat cold very wet or humidity, quite neutral in character, I've never had any reason to question head room or noise so couldnt even tell you what the figures are except its not an issue. I realise this doesnt answer the questions about the list of mics above. Some like Sanken COS-11 though and some Sonotrims but there are not as in as wide use.

[soren k jensen]

I use mkh 416, dpa 4017 shotgun and dpa 4071 lavs. cannot compare shotguns to lavs. I find myself using the 416 whenever I can because of its bite. 4017 when I want neutral, and the dpa 4071 lavs when I need to. the 4071 is a very good lav mic, and when I can I use it wired. Works fine, but shotgun always sounds better. Only used countryman for music, prefer the dpa's.

[Stephen Pruitt]

I own the B6, the Sonotrim, and the COS-11. I've also used the Tram and the Lectrosonics M-150.

The skinny:

1. The B6 is valuable primarily for its incredibly small size. It sounds very good, but is so darn easy to hide that in practice it can actually sound better than the other lavs, because it is often easier to place "in plain view." We actually like to mount the B6 in an actress's hair (if she has dark hair), and, up on top, you almost never have any worries about ruined takes from clothing noise.

2. The COS-11 is much larger than the B6, and sounds a little bit better to my ears, but it is a bit harder to hide, as well.

3. The Sonotrim sounds flat-out amazing, MUCH better than the Tram. BUT, it is also harder to place vis-a-vis the B6 or COS-11. This mic, well-placed, cuts incredibly well with the Schoeps CMC6/5/441 hyper cardioid microphones. In a quiet setting, I prefer the Schoeps booms. In a not so quite setting, the Sonotrim is definitely the better choice. In general, I try to lav every actor every time. . . just in case.

Of course, YMMV.

Stephen

[Kim Frank]

Here you can read and hear a comparison of all popular Lav Mics...
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/lavs_brockett.html
To my ears the Sanken COS-11 sounds best even underneath Wardrobe

[Dave Blackham]

Thats a really useful link, thanks.

Im not so sure I agree a Sonotrim sounds better than a Tram TR50 just different. They are not the same mic though but clearly similar.

Soren makes a good point. Lav's should not be regarded as a principle mic. A super cardiod or cardiod mic is always going to be prefered when it can be place in an optimal position. If it can resort to a LAV which is for 95% of the time always in the wrong position plus all the other issues that go with it such as clothing noise, wind and so on. Sennheiser MKH40/50/60 and Schoeps CMIT and CCM mics rule here.

[Tim Duran]

Dave, it is my understanding that lavs come in different pick up patterns as well. If so, is there a commonly used pattern? When would you use something else?

[Dave Blackham]

Lav's are mostly Omni directional. We have about 40 and all but 2 are Omni. The other two are cardioid and I cant even remember when I last used them. If I wanted a small cardioid mic Id use a Schoeps CCM4.

Omni's are placed in terms of proximity ie the closer it is to the source the more it favours the source as oppose to a directional mic by pointing at it. So for our needs Omni's are generally fine.

The Cardioids tend to be useful if you want to hide a small mic some were (not body worn) or some times for stage shows or attached to a musical instrument. They can be more of a problem body worn if they inadvertently point at some undesired sound if moving around.

A couple of points on mic placement, the first rule of mic placement is it is more important what a mic is NOT looking at rather than what it IS looking at. This affects all directional mics interms of placement. If you point it away from the offending noise you can generally make good the desired sound ie reject the sound you don't want.

You can create a boundary mic from an Omni LAV by placing it on a flat surface and it becomes hemispherical in polar pattern, you can find accesory kits to do this but Bluetack (UK stuff don't know what this is called in the US) or gaffer tape have worked fine for years.

Form an Omni mic (it isn't directional) proximity is important, it should matter too much which way its oriented, if body worn on the chest not too low so as to loose the voice and not to high or it may get to nasal. Also placed in hats, or in hair can work well too. They can be available in a selection of colours, Black, white, Flesh tone, Brown, Blonde from some manufacturers. Tram used to do colour selection but I don't know about other manufacturers.

Visit Make up to get some Toupee tape or Lingerie tape to mount them. Don't ever use cheep Gaffer tape to attach to them as the glue comes off and its a royal pain to get of again.

[Marc Wielage]

Im not so sure I agree a Sonotrim sounds better than a Tram TR50 just different. They are not the same mic though but clearly similar.
They're sourced from an almost identical pickup, but the Tram's are designed to have a deliberate high-frequency peak to cut through clothing; the Sonotrims are made to be much flatter. For me, I'd rather have the HF peak, because to me, it works with most of the actors I deal with (particularly when the lavs are well-hidden); the argument against them from some mixers is that the Trams are too "edgy." I think this can be EQ'd out by the re-recording mixer, but it's a subjective call.

I would also recommend the Oscar Sound Tech lavs (http://oscarsoundtech.com/) as being very good matches for Trams at a much lower price. The Oscar Sound Tech mikes are available with or without the treble peak, so you have the choice of going with a "Tram" sound or a "Sonotrim" sound.

Countryman B6's are mandatory for situations where you have very skimpy wardrobe (especially tight-fitting T-shirts or tanktops), but be wary of their sensitivity to wind and breath pops.

Cardioid lavs are a specialty mike I would only use for very noisy interview situations where I could clip the lavs on the outside. They're also much better at rejecting feedback in PA situations. Countryman's new B2D is a champ for this purpose, but it's not cheap.

I would note that sometimes lavs have to be the principle mike when there's nowhere else to go, particularly "wide and tight" 2- or 3-camera situations. There are entire movies and TV shows out there that are shot 80% with wireless lavs these days; Tony Scott's Unstoppable is a good example. In a perfect world, absolutely, booms are the best way to go, but it's not always practical. To me, post is all about having choices, and being able to hand in a decent boom track and iso lavs for a missed line here or there at least helps the post crew avoid the need for ADR.

[Stephen Pruitt]

What Marc said.

Stephen

[Kim Frank]

How do you know they used Lavs most if the time in unstoppable? Did you work on it, or can you point me to the article? Do you happen to know what Lavs they used?

[Marc Wielage]

How do you know they used Lavs most if the time in unstoppable? Did you work on it, or can you point me to the article? Do you happen to know what Lavs they used?
Very widely reported in the trades. It might have even been in a past issue of American Cinematographer -- a lot of the movie was shot multi-camera, and/or confining spaces inside or on a train, so there was simply no place to put the boom. What blew my mind is that they got usable dialog at all inside the main locomotive, given the diesel engine in there.

Remember, it's not just what specific lavs they used -- it's how they were used, and how the film was mixed (by Bill Kaplan). Think of the microphone merely as a lens.

[Trailangel]

Think of the microphone merely as a lens.
Isn't that how the Zoom H4n got it's name...? It works like a Zoom lens.

[Mark Allen]

After doing a lot of comparison listening on the web, I recently did a test where I matched a COS-11 with a Sennheiser MKH60 and I feel it was a very fine match actually. To my ears, the Sanken is definitely the most boom mic sounding lav I've heard. I really like it, but I can't say I've put it through it's paces in a variety of environments. I was testing only in interior location.

Of course, though I have to say there was some clothing noise on the wireless track now and then. Perhaps a better sound person could have eliminated that.

And on the subject... if you're thinking lower budget... I thought this idea was a little bit brilliant and a great use of modern technology FOR INDIES ONLY who are used to limitations... obviously you can't mix levels etc... (I don't want to be flamed for respecting this idea): http://www.danmccomb.com/posts/678/zoom-h1-as-wireless-lav-4x-cheaper/

[Dave Blackham]

Its interesting to hear your views. The important thing is to listen, not make an emotional decision on hearsay or what ever. COS-11's are very good, no question. I don't find them as easy to rig as a Tram which is my only view but they do sound very neutral and are a great mic.

The other thing to consider is different voices are suited to some mic's better than others. So where one mic sounds great on one person it wont be so great on another. One female presenter we work with doesn't suit a tram but does suit a Sony ECM77. Some times a variety of mic's is good to have.

I think the link is great BTW

[Mark Allen]

I just checked out some comparisons of the Oscar Tech to the tram. Remarkably similar sound - and very inexpensive comparatively to all lavs. Definitely seems like a bargain option... combined with some H1's that's some pretty cheap remote lav system for indies.

I still prefer the COS-11 lav over any other I've used or heard, but it is perhaps a little more difficult to hide and manipulate.

[Patrick Miao]

Has anyone tried the rode Lav with the micon connectors? I found out about them from this site and was wondering if anyone has tried them out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1djyJxV3hV4

[Allan Black]

Yes we have .. and find that lav is the real deal for the price. Rode have released more Micron connectors too.

http://www.rodemic.com/news/rode-extends-micon-compatibility

Cheers.

[Mark Allen]

I checked out a bunch of mic comparisons (and rented a few) recently and determined that while I love the COS11's sound, all things considered (that mostly I'll be taking audio from the boom), I am going to opt for a less expensive option. The Oscarsoundtech 801 did, in fact, sound nearly identical to the Tram... however I've heard scattered reports that the OscarSoundTech TL-40 sounds like either a B6 or a COS11... but I can't find any TL-40 audio samples anywhere. Does anyone have experience with this mic and can report to me the sound or point to or post samples?

(BTW I am going to be using them with the H1's... I just loved that technique)

[Mark Allen]

I just received my Oscar Tech TL-40's today and tried them wired into my zoom h1's. initial feeling is very positive. I will be using them on a production this weekend and will report back. Originally I was going with the 801's but people said the TL-40's were more like the COS-11's. I can't make that comparison because I don't have a COS-11 handy and my previous test with the COS-11 was going into a different recorder - but what I'm hearing is not quite the same brightness, but definitely a full and warm quality to the sound. More on this later... but I really love this portable recorder solution for lavs - especially since we so often shoot in warehouse areas where we get mass interference and the audio is useless regardless of the high quality equipment.

[Ryan Bedell]

another mic to try is the countryman B3. Looks like a fat B6. Sounds like a fat B6. Handles like a fat B6. Same cable and everything. IF you don't need the B6 ultimate hidability, but don't want ot go with something as large as the COS-11 it's a really good choice. And pretty cheap to boot.

[Marc Wielage]

BTW, if you'd like to hear a major film where quite a bit of the dialog was done on wireless Tram TR50's, watch The King's Speech. Nominated for (but did not win) an Oscar for Best Sound. This documentary goes into mixer Tom Midgely's philosophies and techniques in great detail:

http://soundworkscollection.com/thekingsspeech

To echo Ryan's endorsement of the Countryman B3, I would also add that this lav is also waterproof (or at least water resistant). It's a little harder to find than the Tram or the Oscartech, but it's a very similar-sounding mike.

[Mark Allen]

I have now used the TL-40's combined with the Zoom H1's on a series of spec commercials I was doing to experiment with different production techniques. (Shot with the D60, not my RED because my RED was rented out and for all but one of these it was just me and the actors, no one else and I needed something I could solo shoot within 2-4 hours.)

Here are some samples:


TL-40's only, nothing else, no boom:

http://zooppa.com/ads/matchingdonors-wants-a-piece-of-you/videos/battle-scars

TL-40's mostly, with just a tiny bit of DR100 open micing added in for "stereo reverberation" (was an interesting trick I must say)

http://zooppa.com/ads/amazon-freedom-to-choose-video-contest/videos/change-for-a-dime

TL-40's mixed with Senn MKH50 (attached to C-stand). (DP Howard Newstate & VO btw will be replaced, didn't have it in time here)

http://zooppa.com/ads/horizon-back-to-school-blues/videos/two-of-me

[Dave Blackham]

Just reading back through this thread. The majority of the mics, particularly the TR-50 and similar styled mics and Cos 11's are all going to be with in the top couple of % of available personal mics. The difference will come in use and matching to other mics also the voice of the actor, so to a large degree its more personal choice based on what the mics is capable of. All though my own choice is still pretty much TR 50's its best to have a selection fo mics dependent on the circumstances. I dont think the one size fits all principle works here.

[Patrick Miao]

That's the impression I get as well. Sort of like movie cameras.

[Hans von Sonntag]

I have Voice Technologies lav along with my Schoeps. I had to chose between the Trams 50, the DPAs and the Voice-Techs. I chose the Voice-Techs because they match the Schoeps best. It's a personal choice an has a lot to do how one thinks that voices should sound like. There are many around who like a MKH 416. For me it sounds like a Coke bottle. The same personal preference is with Lavs. Great that there are so many choices.

Hans

[Marc Wielage]

Note there are different generations of MKH416's, going back to the 1970s. This mike was long in production, and they don't all sound the same. I'll tell you that a recent-vintage P48 MKH416 does not sound like a coke bottle. In some ways, I prefer the newer MKH60 -- the boom ops like it more, because it's a lighter-weight mike than the 416, but has very similar characteristics -- but they each can cut through to get dialog in tough locations.

Some sound engineers really like the Voice Techs, and those are also very similar to the Sonotrims. Both are essentially flat versions of the Trams. I prefer the Trams for situations where I have to bury them under a layer of clothing, since the peaked high end cuts through a little better. The DPAs and Countryman mikes also have their loyal users.

As far as matching lavs with booms, so much depends on acoustics, it's a dicey area. Re-recording mixers and dialog editors are so good nowadays, I think they can get very close with EQ and even convolution reverbs to get the lavs to have more of a natural "room" sound. Tom Midgely of The King's Speech goes into this in some detail.

Realistically, I think a lot boils down more to where you place the mike and how it's used, not just what microphone is used. The choice of wireless transmitter is also a big factor in sound quality. Giving the post sound people options later on is the key -- anything to avoid ADR when possible.

[Dave Blackham]

Note there are different generations of MKH416's, going back to the 1970s. This mike was long in production, and they don't all sound the same. I'll tell you that a recent-vintage P48 MKH416 does not sound like a coke bottle. In some ways, I prefer the newer MKH60 -- the boom ops like it more, because it's a lighter-weight mike than the 416, but has very similar characteristics -- but they each can cut through to get dialog in tough locations.


I agree, the other point is how reliable the mic is in the environment. Ive used a 416 in very humid literaly under a waterfall and very hot +60 C and down to -40C it worked fine, No issues. However in an MS pair or in just Mono they phase like crazy on a pan so in my view that are not suited to panning or stereo use. An MKH 60 will not work in hot humid conditions, the capsule wont out put audio. It doesnt phase and is great for MS work.



Realistically, I think a lot boils down more to where you place the mike and how it's used, not just what microphone is used. The choice of wireless transmitter is also a big factor in sound quality. Giving the post sound people options later on is the key -- anything to avoid ADR when possible.

I couldnt agree more. This overrides any choice of mic, if its in an unsuitable place then your doomed. First rule of mic placement. It is more important what a mic isnt looking at than what it is looking at. ie dont point it at something you dont want to hear, theres usually a placement to place what isnt desired off mic and still capture on mic the sound you require.