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View Full Version : CineForm Prospect 4K now in beta.



David Newman
12-04-2007, 04:18 PM
Prospect 4K has arrived. This allows you to encode 4:4:4 4K CineForm out of RedCine and edit them online in a PC Premiere Pro timeline.

Information on how to use Prospect 4K, and the workflow is here:
http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/Red-Prospect4K.htm

Prospect 4K includes all the features of NEO 4K, but adds Premiere Pro integration and real-time editing features.

I look forward to your feedback.

P.S. Those whos trial has run out on NEO 4K, the 3.2.1 version of Prospect 4K or NEO 4K will give you an additional 15-days.

P.P.S Download can be requested from here : http://www.cineform.com/products/Downloads/Downloads.htm

Gian Joon
12-04-2007, 04:27 PM
That is awsome. Congrats David.

Kevin Halverson
12-04-2007, 04:35 PM
Looks interesting, will check it out in the next few days.

Thanks!

Joel Kaye
12-04-2007, 05:00 PM
Prospect 4K has arrived. This allows you to encode 4:4:4 4K CineForm out of RedCine and edit them online in a PC Premiere Pro timeline.


Do you have a recommended video card? I've heard the new 8800GT does not have video overlay enabled. Does that keep it from working with Cineform in Premiere?

David Newman
12-04-2007, 05:09 PM
Do you have a recommended video card? I've heard the new 8800GT does not have video overlay enabled. Does that keep it from working with Cineform in Premiere?

It work fine, you just won't get the external monitor output. For any real work, we recommend using an AJA Xena LH or LHe card, graphics cards have too many issues.

Joel Kaye
12-04-2007, 05:16 PM
It work fine, you just won't get the external monitor output. For any real work, we recommend using an AJA Xena LH or LHe card, graphics cards have too many issues.

How about the Blackmagic cards? I know the Intensity is supported by Premiere.

David Taylor
12-04-2007, 06:42 PM
How about the Blackmagic cards? I know the Intensity is supported by Premiere.

Joel, because Prospect 4K uses the CineForm RT engine (as opposed to the Adobe engine), CineForm is in control of driving HD-SDI monitoring cards (not graphics cards). We integrated support for AJA quite some time ago, but because the SW architecture of the BM cards is different, we haven't finished supporting them (yet) for RT monitoring. Hopefully that isn't too far off, but in the mean time AJA cards work very well.

Mike McCarthy
12-06-2007, 12:08 PM
The Cineform website recommends using P4K to edit at 2K resolution in Premiere. I assume that is for better interactive performance. So if you wanted a 4K master at the end, is the plan to reimport that project into a true 4K Premiere project, or will it be significantly better to do into AE at that point?

David Newman
12-06-2007, 02:45 PM
2K workflow is actually the most practical, and still get all the benefits of 4K oversampling and re-cropping while in the edit. You will notice we still recommend 4k exports from RedCine. The 2K workflow will also help when mixing 2K slowmotion sources with 4K 24p sources. Currently 2K is the most common Digital Cinema Package resolution, also for DPX film outs. So the 2K workflow is the most practical for but a rare few very high-end project. For those high end projects we would still recommend a 2K edit, then use After Effects to generate the 4K masters, which is better at handling the huge memory footprint for 4K frames.

Steve Sanacore
12-06-2007, 03:44 PM
Do these statements apply to the Mac OSX side as well as PC side? I have been Mac based and was wondering what my best choice was for video cards, Black Magic or AJA for working with my upcoming RED camera and footage.

Thanks for any help.

Radoslav Karapetkov
12-06-2007, 04:01 PM
4:4:4 4K

Excuse me for asking, but is this actually possible?

It was discussed recently in another place that the nature of the CMOS sensor makes it practically incapable of this.

Otherwise, great news for Adobe folk!

Sven Seynaeve
12-06-2007, 04:16 PM
Dear David, this is a wonderfull job you've done so far. This is something that will definately end up in my chain.

David Newman
12-06-2007, 04:19 PM
Excuse me for asking, but is this actually possible?

It was discussed recently in another place that the nature of the CMOS sensor makes it practically incapable of this.

Otherwise, great news for Adobe folk!

Encoding to 4:4:4 4K, yes completely possible, we are doing that now. What you are getting at is a bayer sensor capable of fully resolving to 4:4:4 4K. While is it it not as detailed as a 65mm film scan, 4K bayer sensor can still resolve more than 2K, typically closer to 3K+.

Radoslav Karapetkov
12-06-2007, 04:26 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

BASSAM MSSALATIE
12-06-2007, 04:28 PM
IS CINEFORM WILL WORK with Mac enviorements (with fcp) same as with Pc's... (cs3):glare:

David Newman
12-06-2007, 04:33 PM
FCP is still 2K only, so that will be an issue for 4K onlines. Under FCP we are only recommend 4:4:4 2K exports from RedCine. Mac PPro CS3 maybe soon. Currently we are focusing on the PC CS3 workflow as PPro/AE supports 4K and we are already tightly integrated.

Sven Seynaeve
12-06-2007, 04:33 PM
I've been going through your explanations, but I can't understand why you didn't make that 4k preset at all???

If we can edit at 4k res, we should be able to have 4k output as well? Certainly when we own a 4k projector, wouldn't this be nicer to have this option???

David Newman
12-06-2007, 04:38 PM
You can make you own preset, we just strongly believe there is very little benefit. Also we aren't limiting 4K exports, load your project into AE and export at 4K. 4K exports for Premiere Pro is currently not supported, although we will be working on that for those crazy enough to own a 4K projector. ;)

Sven Seynaeve
12-07-2007, 12:32 AM
Ok, good you'll be working on it , please keep us informed. There's just aja or another brand who should take up and letting us being able to hook up a 4k output card in our workstation, as far as I know , we're not yet able to do this or are we???

Sven Seynaeve
12-07-2007, 01:00 AM
Maby Nvidia could work on a sollution, as they have the quadro plex system, who is capable to stream 4k out of the box already.
Or do you think other brands will produce these soon?

Lauri Kettunen
12-07-2007, 03:22 AM
Having Prospect 2K license, is tProspect 4K a trial version or will it run under my existing license?

David Newman
12-07-2007, 08:21 AM
Lauri,

Prospect 4K is a different license with a 15-day trial. I expect there I will be a $500 upgrade from P2K when P4K is released if you are interested.

Kevin Halverson
12-07-2007, 09:17 AM
Hello David,

I have been holding off on installing the Prospect trial as I want to have the option of purchasing the actual finished product at the end of the trial period if I decide to go that direction. Do you have an ETA on the finished product yet? I want to time it so that I don't have any down time between the trial's expiration and the ability to obtain the finished product.

David Newman
12-07-2007, 09:31 AM
That is fair. Other than 4K exports from Premiere Pro 4K, it is very close to being ready, however we interested in beta testing feedback. We will rollout trial extensions if the release version is not ready. We have all ready done that with NEO 4K.

Kevin Halverson
12-07-2007, 09:45 AM
Thanks David,

Perfect! I will start testing immediately and will be happy to provide feed back. Where is the best place to provide any notes we come up with? This forum or another? I am not as interested in 4k exports for now, my main interest is 4k acquired material, processed through RedCine and finished in 2k and 1080 on CS3 while maintaining 4:4:4 color space.

Thanks!

Kevin

David Newman
12-07-2007, 09:49 AM
This site can work for feedback. Although more CineForm eyes are on this forum over at DVinfo.net http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=76

Mike McCarthy
12-07-2007, 10:34 AM
Thanks David,

Perfect! I will start testing immediately and will be happy to provide feed back. Where is the best place to provide any notes we come up with? This forum or another? I am not as interested in 4k exports for now, my main interest is 4k acquired material, processed through RedCine and finished in 2k and 1080 on CS3 while maintaining 4:4:4 color space.

Thanks!

Kevin

If you are planning to downsample to 2K in RedCine, then Prospect2K is all that is required, but if you are going to wait until after the edit to downres, then obviously you will need the full capability of Prospect4K. Also, I believe the trial expiration will only apply to encoding, so you should be able to playback and edit the files during any "downtime" if the trial expires, you just won't be able to process out of RedCine, or export to Cineform out of PPro/AE.

David Newman
12-07-2007, 12:12 PM
If you are planning to downsample to 2K in RedCine, then Prospect2K is all that is required, but if you are going to wait until after the edit to downres, then obviously you will need the full capability of Prospect4K. Also, I believe the trial expiration will only apply to encoding, so you should be able to playback and edit the files during any "downtime" if the trial expires, you just won't be able to process out of RedCine, or export to Cineform out of PPro/AE.

You down-res to 2K in RedCine now, so yes you can then use a NEO 2K or Prospect 2K license. It is true that the decoding never expires in the trial versions, however all the real-time pipeline expires in Prospect 2K/4K, so to continue editing you need to import the Prospect project into a desktop editing mode. Or purchase a full license. Note: Decoding in tools like AE are not impacted in any way.

Lauri Kettunen
12-08-2007, 01:10 AM
I expect there I will be a $500 upgrade from P2K when P4K is released if you are interested.

David, thank you for the info. Will get the upgrade once it is available.

Joe Carney
12-08-2007, 02:46 PM
Lauri,

Prospect 4K is a different license with a 15-day trial. I expect there I will be a $500 upgrade from P2K when P4K is released if you are interested.

Does this mean that P4K for new clients will be almost 2,000 USD per license?

David Newman
12-08-2007, 02:53 PM
$1999 is the planned price for Prospect 4K, and NEO 4K at $999.

Sean
12-08-2007, 04:25 PM
Makes it so tempting to change my entire suite to Premiere. I'm Avid Media Composer on PC at this point. And I simply will not go to Apple/Final Cut. (Stubborn, yes.) Cineform seems really smart and responsive.

Kevin Halverson
12-08-2007, 04:29 PM
CS3 is a great suite, can't recommend it highly enough.

Mike McCarthy
12-08-2007, 06:25 PM
I can't say that I have extensive experience with the other options from Apple and AVID, but I have always been an Adobe guy and felt no reason to switch. It is the most versatile toolset of the three, but admittedly it doesn't have every single capability that the others have. It supports every format in one way or another through Matrox, Cineform, etc. and good performance even at high resolutions. Those don't all necessarily apply to the new OSX version, but it is getting there.

David Newman
12-08-2007, 08:34 PM
The one advantage Premiere Pro has while being the complete underdog for high-end TV and film production, is Adobe's openess to work with partners. Imagine After Effects without it effects API. Premeire is similarly expandable, allowing third-parties like CineForm to mold the Adobe products in new directions.

Rudi Herbert
12-10-2007, 03:15 PM
I feel the same way about Premiere, however, if you have time to read a rather long thread I posted elsewhere, which is related, here it goes:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6540

Kevin Halverson
12-10-2007, 03:44 PM
Hello Rudi,

I did see your post based upon your conversation with Mike Most, it made for a good read. However, I don't completely agree that one is 'forced' to use FCS for RED originated footage. We are planning a workflow for an upcoming pilot/episodic based upon:

RED -> SCRATCH -> CS3 -> SCRATCH -> D5 VTR

Were not fully tested yet, but so far, it is looking reasonable. How CineForm will fit in is still to be determined as we are just beginning to work with the beta. The investment made in learning Adobe products and the integration across their products is too important to discard.

Kevin

Rudi Herbert
12-10-2007, 07:56 PM
Kevin,

Thanks for your reply. Of course, one is never truly "forced" to do anything, but right now, a logical and intuitive flow as there is with FCP cannot be had with Premiere. Or can it? Maybe the Cineform solution works like a charm and once you rewrap the .r3d files onto Cineform ones, then that's it, I'd be on a path where I'm both comfortable and effective. So please keep us posted on your progress as it'd be very important for us Adobe users.

Thanks again,

David Newman
12-10-2007, 08:49 PM
We are seeing a good number of downloads, and we had some nice email feedback of positive and things we can make better. How many others have given this a try?

Kevin Halverson
12-10-2007, 09:16 PM
I am wanting to try it out too but have been working with CineForm's support about an installation issue. Hope to get through it and get down to some real testing within the next few days.

Karl H
12-22-2007, 05:34 AM
$1999 is the planned price for Prospect 4K, and NEO 4K at $999.

Hi David, I know that the difference between Prospect 4K and Neo 4K is the realtime engine for Premiere. Is that the only difference? And can you give a ballbark estimate of how much faster it is to use Prospect over Neo?

David Taylor
12-22-2007, 08:03 AM
Darkline,

Yes, the RT engine in P4K is the primary difference with Neo 4K, but it's a pretty big difference. As you may know, Wavelets have a multi-res decoding property that is a "built-in" characteristic of the way the compression works. You can think of the lower-res decode as a "dynamic, real-time proxy" because it is created in RT from the full-res source file. Because the preview resolution is not a proxy, and because it derives directly from the source file, it is a "perfect" representation of the source. In fact you can color correct using the preview resolution.

The CineForm RT engine understands this characteristic and allow both user-defined and dynamic switching between full-resolution and preview resolution displays on the timeline. In addition to the multi-res decoding, CineForm has real-time effects, transitions, and other filters that operate with CineForm files. Think of P4K as a hardware accelerator that is implemented in software.

When outside PPro, we aren't able to use our RT engine, so we offer Neo 4K. Both include a myriad of conversion features through our application called HD Link.

While the CineForm codec is compatible with virtually all apps on Windows and Mac, we don't have the ability to accelerate those (non-PPro) apps using our engine. There are things we can do inside the codec itself however, and we do. For instance, we can observe the calling application and know when to deliver 8 bit versus 10 bit. That's a simple example, but descriptive of the "smarts" that we build into the codec to try to improve features/functions even if we don't have our RT engine present.

A final comment is that recently we released a shell-based tool (free utility) to batch-convert DPX files into and out of CineForm 444. So for those with traditional DPX files and workflows, you now have the option of much smaller files and accelerated workflows by converting to and from CineForm 444. The converter is available through our website.

This is perhaps longer than you expected, but hopefully it was descriptive.

David Taylor
12-22-2007, 08:06 AM
Darkline, despite the length of my previous post I didn't answer your second question. CineForm files in PPro using P4K will play roughly 4X faster than CineForm files without our RT engine because of the multi-res decoding built into the engine. More than that, PPro forces you to render frequently (our engine does not) so there is a workflow impact also.

Karl H
12-23-2007, 09:10 AM
Thanks David, that explains a lot. Much appreciated.


Im buying a new PC (or Mac) soon so I'll download and test then.

Jay A. Kelley
12-23-2007, 03:17 PM
Prospect 4K has arrived. This allows you to encode 4:4:4 4K CineForm out of RedCine and edit them online in a PC Premiere Pro timeline.

Information on how to use Prospect 4K, and the workflow is here:
http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/Red-Prospect4K.htm

Prospect 4K includes all the features of NEO 4K, but adds Premiere Pro integration and real-time editing features.

I look forward to your feedback.

P.S. Those whos trial has run out on NEO 4K, the 3.2.1 version of Prospect 4K or NEO 4K will give you an additional 15-days.

P.P.S Download can be requested from here : http://www.cineform.com/products/Downloads/Downloads.htm


David... SOLD!!! I want this.. I am very exciting about this.. I will be starting with the 2k as I have no need for 4k at this time in my life. Thanks for the work!

Jay
production@dreamwelder.com

Jay

Jay A. Kelley
12-23-2007, 05:18 PM
Guys,

What is Adobe's answer to "color" or is there one? This seems to be the only piece missing.

Jay

David Taylor
12-24-2007, 12:01 AM
I don't think Adobe has a direct response to Color, but CineForm and Iridas just announced a technology alliance that will span cross platform, and of course that includes compatibility with Adobe products. Iridas has already integrated CineForm RAW on Windows. MacOS pending....

Luis Otero
12-24-2007, 12:50 AM
FCP is still 2K only, so that will be an issue for 4K onlines. Under FCP we are only recommend 4:4:4 2K exports from RedCine. Mac PPro CS3 maybe soon. Currently we are focusing on the PC CS3 workflow as PPro/AE supports 4K and we are already tightly integrated.

David,

I do have a Intel Mac, running CS3 for Mac, and PP2 for XP through Bootcamp. I bought the NEO 2K since all your graphs in your website say that there is HD Link for PC and Mac. Once installed, I just realized that there is not HD Link for Mac CS3. How soon this will be available? I assume it would be for free since the website mention HD Link for both operating systems, right?

Rudi Herbert
12-24-2007, 06:49 AM
Guys,

What is Adobe's answer to "color" or is there one? This seems to be the only piece missing.

Jay

Jay,

If you have the full CS3 suite, you can always do color work in AE at full quality. Sometimes, I import a frame from a scene into Photoshop, grade it there to my liking, then import the "look" into AE and the whole clip into AE as well and apply the look to the clip and let AE render the settings into the whole clip. Works pretty fast even with uncompressed HD, so with Cineform files it would be even faster. Other than that, there's a pluggin for either Premiere or AE called "Color Finesse" from Synthetic Apperture that is just awesome IMO, 32 bit floating point precision, 3 weel primary correction, the works. They are worth a look. I've seen clips graded with Finesse compared side by side with the same clip done on a Da Vinci, an Inferno and a Quantel, and save for the obvious differences and nuances of every system, the quality was absolutely the same as those million dollar monsters...

JustMe
12-24-2007, 07:40 AM
"HD+ are currently shipping for Macintosh, with the Windows version coming soon."
"it was after the completion of Dust to Glory that we finished integration work with Synthetic Aperture to allow 10-bit color correction directly within Premiere Pro. "

Wonder what happend to these idea's

Joe Carney
12-24-2007, 09:25 AM
Jay,

If you have the full CS3 suite, you can always do color work in AE at full quality. Sometimes, I import a frame from a scene into Photoshop, grade it there to my liking, then import the "look" into AE and the whole clip into AE as well and apply the look to the clip and let AE render the settings into the whole clip. Works pretty fast even with uncompressed HD, so with Cineform files it would be even faster. Other than that, there's a pluggin for either Premiere or AE called "Color Finesse" from Synthetic Apperture that is just awesome IMO, 32 bit floating point precision, 3 weel primary correction, the works. They are worth a look. I've seen clips graded with Finesse compared side by side with the same clip done on a Da Vinci, an Inferno and a Quantel, and save for the obvious differences and nuances of every system, the quality was absolutely the same as those million dollar monsters...

Check out Colorista and/or Magic Bullet looks for AE and PPro.

Gian Joon
12-25-2007, 11:54 PM
...CineForm approach is more video centric than film, online rather than offline, so its workflow will likely appeal to different users.


.

David, this quote is from some other thread. I am not able to understand what you mean by Video Centric approach.

Gavin Greenwalt
12-26-2007, 12:21 AM
Well David won't be able to answer any more questions... so I'll try to do the best I can for what I think he meant.

Film Centric means:
Edit SD or HD offline 24p telecine footage.
Create EDL
Cut Negative or conform DPX files based on EDL.

Video Centric Means:
Edit, Grade and Conform the actual footage in an intermediate codec such as Cineform, DV or HDCAM.

Tom Lowe
12-26-2007, 01:40 AM
So for someone planning to finish at 2K, P2K is really all we need? We could always keep the 4K masters in archive just in case.

Mike McCarthy
12-26-2007, 10:44 AM
Yes, basically that is the idea.

Luis Otero
12-26-2007, 12:06 PM
David,

I do have a Intel Mac, running CS3 for Mac, and PP2 for XP through Bootcamp. I bought the NEO 2K since all your graphs in your website say that there is HD Link for PC and Mac. Once installed, I just realized that there is not HD Link for Mac CS3. How soon this will be available? I assume it would be for free since the website mention HD Link for both operating systems, right?

I really would like to get an estimate as to when HDLink will be available for Mac...!!!

Gian Joon
12-26-2007, 03:01 PM
Thanks Gavin.

David Taylor
12-26-2007, 06:05 PM
Tom,

You still have a workflow decision to make regarding Prospect 2K or Prospect 4K, even if your final project is 2K. If you export all material from RedCine at 2K then all you need is Prospect 2K.

But if you want to maintain some 4K material for certain effects work (like zooms) then you might want Prospect 4K. P4K will allow you to export from RedCine at up to 4K for the shots that need it, even if most of your material is 2K. You can intermix both 2K and 4K material on the Prospect timeline without a problem. But at the time of render, all new renders will be at the spatial resolution of the project settings.

Jay A. Kelley
12-26-2007, 06:14 PM
David,

Is it correct to assume that cineform footage rendered at 480 - 720 - 1080 will be faster than that at 4K?

Also do you support Color Finesse? If so, can I expect the same latitude and flexibility as I would with DPX files?

Thanks

Jay

David Taylor
12-26-2007, 08:45 PM
David,

Is it correct to assume that cineform footage rendered at 480 - 720 - 1080 will be faster than that at 4K?
Yes. However a 1K decode of a 4K file is almost as fast a full res decode of a 1K file. The main advantage to the 1K file is the file size and disk bandwith required is much lower.


Also do you support Color Finesse? If so, can I expect the same latitude and flexibility as I would with DPX files?



The more accurate question should be - does Color Finesse support 32-bit float yet within Premiere and AE; all 32-bit plug-ins will preserve headroom with CineForm. Color Finesse was planning that upgrade last year.

Jay A. Kelley
12-27-2007, 04:45 AM
David,

I am currently working on building a PC system for my REDCine / Cineform Adobe Premiere work.. I am running into some issues on the Graphics Card side.. I am being told the Nvidia 8800 GTX is NOT a good choice on the Cineform / Premiere part of things.

Can you please advise on a good Nvidia brand that will also afford me some gast GPU work for REDCine? Is there something wrong with the 8800?

Jay

PS You may want to venture into the OFF TOPIC section where there is a thread talking about new systems for REDCine.. May be helpful to throw in your advice from Cineform's percpective.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6965

There's some very good talk going on over there.

Paolo Tinari
12-30-2007, 05:53 AM
I was working with Prospect and gtx 7800 with the known color shift problems. Last month i've placed a Quadro 4500 and the problem doesnt exist anymore.
I'm actually testing succesfully P4K with his workflow through Premiere, AE and Color Finesse.
Only issue so far is the rendering speed with my AMD 64x2 2.41GHz.

Antoine Baumann
12-31-2007, 07:48 AM
the "problem" with the 8000 seires is that there is not anymore overlay option in the driver. But I've seen people that got around this problem and used 8800 with cineform happily.

sorry i don't find the link but you should be able to find some info.

antoine.

Jay A. Kelley
01-01-2008, 12:45 PM
I was working with Prospect and gtx 7800 with the known color shift problems. Last month i've placed a Quadro 4500 and the problem doesnt exist anymore.
I'm actually testing succesfully P4K with his workflow through Premiere, AE and Color Finesse.
Only issue so far is the rendering speed with my AMD 64x2 2.41GHz.

Paolo, how is Finesse? Is that working well for you? Also in regard to the rendering times - Please explain.. What are you seeing to output 10sec of footage.

Jay

JustMe
01-01-2008, 01:49 PM
Paolo, how is Finesse? Is that working well for you? Also in regard to the rendering times - Please explain.. What are you seeing to output 10sec of footage.

Jay


bout the same out of afx 7 on my laptop as rendering out of RedCine to to another format.