Low-cost monitoring

[Adam Jeal]

Can someone from BMD please tell me if it is possible to use the following set-up for grading with Resolve;

Decklink HD Extreme 3D+,
HDLINK Pro DVI
Eizo ColorEdge CE240W

If so, is it capable of quality results? - I can't afford to get a dedicated grading monitor at the moment.

Many thanks,

Adam

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I am not from Black Magic, but the answer is that you can use that set up.

It will give quality results. Not feature level, not even broadcast level - but certainly low end cable and web level results. You will have to depend more on the scopes and less on your eyes.

What I'm wondering is why you'd drop coin on an EIZO before just getting a nice HDTV ?

A quality plasma HDTV will actually have greater native display capacity than just about any LCD/LED panel. Now here is the thing ... when you get a dedicated display, you still have a nice, and probably large plasma HDTV. You can show presentations on it, and use it for client display when they sit in. It frankly kicks ass.

Another thing I do? I just watch TV and BluRay on that display. Because its a calibrated display you get just a fantastic sense of the color work others are doing.

Oh, and another thing ... you can totally skip the HDLINK. The HDMI output on the Decklink is rock solid. You only miss some calibration features. You can get most of the benefit by sending test patterns out from your software and calibrating using the displays regular tools. (I send various generated bars out from every bit of software I use to make sure I am seeing the same thing from all of them - which is supposed to be the case but surprisingly is often not the case.

[Adam Jeal]

Thanks Alexander,

I think I'm going to have to look at something better, as I'm looking to grade indie feature films. I can't use the HDMI on the decklink as my PCI-e slots are used as follows;

Slot 4: Highpoint RocketRaid 4322
Slot 3: Decklink Extreme 3D+
Slot 2: Nvidia GT120 (GUI)
Slot 1: Nvidia GTX285 (GPU)

Is it a good idea to be grading features over HDMI?


Adam

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Well, its not a great idea ... but you can do it.

The principal problem isn't any kind of issue with the HDMI protocol or the display quality though, its a calibration issue. That and a consistency issue.

What I have done is to correct a whole project with HDMI displays, then get a "known good" calibrated monitor in for a day or two, and build a LUT that gives me a delta between the calibrated display and my own. Often this turns out to be very very tiny, the difference between two different calibrated displays.

Consumer devices tend not to hold their calibration well over time, so I recommend checking them roughly twice as often as professional devices. Small price to pay really for the cost savings.

Now ... if you are inclined, you can use the BMD HDLink 3D which goes HD-SDI to HDMI. That will save you a pile of effort in calibrating the display.

Now, your configuration issue ... this is why I tend to specify Resolve systems with two Quadro 4000 cards. I use one for GUI, and one for Resolve GPU ... leaving a slot open for HDMI.

In the future ... I expect we'll have Thunderbolt, but that we won't expand the available PCI slots in the Mac Pro. So ... some stuff will just have to hang off the Thunderbolt bus ... Ultrastudio 3D I'm thinking, and Thunderbolt may be the HBA too ... which will let you add in a Rocket and more GPU's ... especially if you can use single slot cards like the Quadro 4000.

Is any of that useful info?

[Adam Jeal]

Very. Thanks Alexander!

:)

Adam

[Philipe Ratton]

Hey Alexander, or whoever want to chime in, while we are at it, what about the ColorEdge CG243W (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/651901-REG/Eizo_CG243W_BK_ColorEdge_CG243W_24_1_Widescreen.ht ml) ?
Its supposed to be as good as the dreamcolor. Using the same set up as Adam but two quadros 4000 and a HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort, what kind of results can one expect ?

[John Saunders]

Now, your configuration issue ... this is why I tend to specify Resolve systems with two Quadro 4000 cards. I use one for GUI, and one for Resolve GPU ... leaving a slot open for HDMI.


Forgot about the raid card which would use all 4 spaces...


We have the same setup (GTX285 and GT120) and we ended up using a HDlink to go to our panasonic plasma.

I also thought that the HDMI out was 8 bit with resolve (maybe they fixed that with V8?) and if so that's another reason to use an HDlink.


Hey Alexander, or whoever want to chime in, while we are at it, what about the ColorEdge CG243W (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/651901-REG/Eizo_CG243W_BK_ColorEdge_CG243W_24_1_Widescreen.ht ml) ?
Its supposed to be as good as the dreamcolor. Using the same set up as Adam but two quadros 4000 and a HDLink Pro 3D DisplayPort, what kind of results can one expect ?

Just out of curiosity are you using the coloredge because you already have it? If you plan to buy one why not look into the 21 inch FSI? Its $2500 and although not full 10bit it has all the IO and scopes that you would expect and comes calibrated.

And since it has SDI you don't need the HDlink making the price the same.

[Adam Jeal]

Hi John,

Yes, I've already got the Eizo. I really like the look of the FSI's esp. the LM-2461W, but AFAIK they don't have any UK dealers. It would cost me nearly $300.00 to ship it from the States and then I'd get hit with 14% duty and 20% VAT on top. Ouch!

Adam

[John Saunders]

Hi John,

Yes, I've already got the Eizo. I really like the look of the FSI's esp. the LM-2461W, but AFAIK they don't have any UK dealers. It would cost me nearly $300.00 to ship it from the States and then I'd get hit with 14% duty and 20% VAT on top. Ouch!

Adam

Yeah, that sucks...

On a plus side I do like the HDlink and so far it has worked real well for us. The plasma is uncalibrated (still burning it in) but the HDlink lut controls look like it they will make it a little easier and more accurate.

The Eizo dosen't have an HDMI input right? Are you sure that the DVI will take a HDMI signal (not all will, I think the DVI has to be HDCP compliant)? I would test it using hdmi out of a dvd player (using an adapter or hdmi to dvi cable) before you go much further.

I know this from experience...

[Adam Jeal]

I'd go dual HD SDI out of the Decklink into an HDLink Pro DVI and plug the Eizo's DVI into that. I've heard a rumour that the HDLink Pro has a problem with the Eizo's. It'd be great if someone from BMD could chime in..

Adam

[John Saunders]

Yeah, what I would wonder about is if the DVI is sending a computer resolution out or a HDTV signal out. Because some DVI computer monitors don't accept HDTV signals.

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Forgot about the raid card which would use all 4 spaces...

Two Quadro 4000, Decklink 3D+, HBA and BMD HDMI bracket works fine. Yes that's five bracket spaces.

The Quadro 4000 is a single slot card, so you can put the HDMI bracket in the "extra" space that is for the double width GPU cards.


I also thought that the HDMI out was 8 bit with resolve (maybe they fixed that with V8?) and if so that's another reason to use an HDlink.

I didn't think that 8 bit HDMI was a Resolve limit, but rather a card limit. I thought they fixed that with the Decklink Extreme 3D+ (as opposed to the non + version.)

Well, now I have to re-test HDMI out. I'd love for someone from BMD to chime in on this.

In any case HDMI 1.4 is supposed to work up to 16 bits per channel and up to 4K, though I know no implementation that supports either.

When shopping for consumer plasma panels for professional use take some care.

There are 14 bit plasma panels, and they are fairly common, though often their inputs/processors are limited to 10, or even 8 bits! I got bitten by one, I have a 50" Samsung cheapy that has a fantastic 14 bit panel with 8 bit electronics. Next time I buy (for 3D) I'll be taking a computer shopping with me to drive the panels with a 10+ bit output. (Resolve Lite on a Thunderbolt Ultrastudio 3D and MacBook Pro should do fine.)

[John Saunders]

Two Quadro 4000, Decklink 3D+, HBA and BMD HDMI bracket works fine. Yes that's five bracket spaces.

The Quadro 4000 is a single slot card, so you can put the HDMI bracket in the "extra" space that is for the double width GPU cards.

Good point, will the cables go "around" another card? If not you might have to do something custom. Also the manual says that the GTX285 and the GT120 are the "optimal" cards, so is there any advantage going with 4000s other than only using 2 actual spaces?

Before we got the HD link we notched our estata raid card for the HDMI cables to go through so that we wouldn't have to cut a hole in the case.

I know that the Decklink outputs 10bit but for some reason I thought I read that Resolve limited it. I could be totally wrong though.

[John Saunders]

Oh and how would you test if the HDMI is outputting 8 or 10bit?

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Good point, will the cables go "around" another card? If not you might have to do something custom.

On my Decklink 3D+ the cables easily go around. My machine has just the Apple default ATI 5770, but when planning I tried running the cables around that card and its fine.


Also the manual says that the GTX285 and the GT120 are the "optimal" cards, so is there any advantage going with 4000s other than only using 2 actual spaces?

You may have an older version of the manual. Also, the manual is written for dedicated Resolve performance ... it doesn't pay much mind to the notion that you may need to run Resolve and then flip over to say Premiere or Media Encoder, which I do several times a day.

The GTX285 is arguably faster than the Quadro 4000, but they are very close. The GT120 though is dog slow by todays standards.

So, for Resolve performance ... you just need to drive a GUI, the GT120 is just fine for that. You could build a dedicated Resolve system around a GT120/GTX285 or a GT120/Quadro 4000 combination with great results.

For general use though, the GT120 sucks balls. That's the technical term I believe.

Anyway, I'd very much rather have the Quadro 4000 in the system.

Now, for me two Quadro 4000 cards is practically ideal because they use less power than the GTX285 and less space, plus they are quieter. (I have to do audio as well as picture.)

For absolute top Resolve performance with good general performance with 2 GPU cards a GTX285/Quadro 4000 is the best choice.

Now ... if you follow the Hackintosh stuff, you can use some PC cards in OS X now, including some very fast cards. Lion supposedly has built in support for other Nvidia cards. I'm hoping to experiment with one of these, some of which are single slot like the Quadro 4000, for use as a Resolve card, and use a real "Mac version" Quadro 4000 for the GUI to drive all my other applications.



I know that the Decklink outputs 10bit but for some reason I thought I read that Resolve limited it. I could be totally wrong though.

Or you could be totally right ... now I'm unsure.


Oh and how would you test if the HDMI is outputting 8 or 10bit?

Make an image that contains a color ramp that is smooth in 10 bit ... it will show banding in 8 bit. I'd do 4 ramps: one ramp for R, G, B and grayscale. This is trivial to create in After Effects or Motion and then export as ProRes4444 for testing. (You can also create these in Color & FCP. I wouldn't be surprised to be able to create them in Resolve and Premiere, but I don't know how yet.)

You can also verify this in your application with the full field waveform. The ramp will be a smooth line in the WFM, if you see banding in the image displayed with a smooth WFM, your output is being decimated.

There are better tests, you can create a set of bars with known 10 bit color values. say 16 bars. Pick them so 8 of the bars are the best 8 bit approximation of their 10 bit neighbors. The difference will be readily apparent.

Also, in natural footage skies will often show limits.

Right now I am working a DVCPRO HD project, so its 8 bit source footage anyway. Its funny to see banded source footage suddenly become smooth as you CC it in float space. Next project looks like it will be DSLR ... so more of the same. After that I hope to have some Red or Alexa footage in here again.

[Filip Vandoorne]

for low-cost high-quality calibrated montoring i would recommend the eizo CG245 with a hdlinkpro 3D displayport. The CG245 has displayport and is 10bit over displayport. Also the CG245 support 23,98/24/50 hz also -- you must disable edid in the hdlink pro preferences over the usb port and enable wide frequency for 24-25Hz in the Eizo - hidden menu , see chapter 3.6 of the manual . The display supports native REC709 and EBU.
ps. a hdmi to displayport won't work, you need the hdlink pro.

[Adam Jeal]

Hi Filip,

What about the Eizo CE240W? can you use this with an HDLink Pro?

EDIT: I've just looked at the CG245W. It looks nice! apparently it supports DCI color spec as well - I'm thinking that this may be an option with a HDLink Pro 3D displayport.

Update found this on another thread http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?60070-Any-Eizo-CG245W-experience&p=779575&viewfull=1#post779575;

We looked at the Eizo's but until the very recent new CG245, the CG-range did also not natively support 50-48hz signals. The new CG245 has a 'secret' startup to enable those frequencies on the displayport connector !- activate range to wide with use speciale menu- see chapter 3.6 of the usersmanual. Also use the hdlink pro displayport with the latest firmware 3.5 and use a usb cable on the hdlink pro to enable in the HDLink Utility preferences the override EDID settings. This combination gives native 50hz and 48hz images on the CG245, which is a natively 10bit panel, and has build-in video color profiles for EBU, REC709, etc. There is even a DCP profile, but then the display expects an xyz signal, so the rgb of the hdlink pro give a 'green' image. You can solve this by making your own DCP profile that you can upload into the monitor with the free eizo software and the build-in calibration probe

Seems like it may be just what I need!


Adam