LART results Commentary Thread

[Ken Corben]

Per Gavin's brilliant suggestion:

I was just thinking that we should probably start a new topic to discuss the results thread since we want to keep that one clean. We need a place where people can go. "No Gavin, you're a complete moron and here is why."

- Gavin

[Ken Corben]

True professionals - Blair, Toni and Brook are way more interested in the camera than the model. Well done gentlemen.

Loved working with these guys - very fun.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I see something funny in Gavin's bluescreen key. I guess I'll email him first.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Which funny stuff? The hole on the right side of her head? The unbacklit poorly supressed hair on the left? The dark line on her arm? The overly bright spill supression on the guy's shirt that could possibly be interpreted as rimlighting if I'm lucky? That they're both a bit too salmon? Don't leave me in suspense! :D

[Álex Montoya]

How come your models had so little to dress with?

[Steve Gibby]

How come your models had so little to dress with?

We've just begun to post preliminary frames and motion sequences from LART and you've already made negative assumptions? The models had plenty of clothing and makeup options. The scenes you'll see shortly on VUZE, and frames and TIFFs we post will illustrate a wide variety of production styles - and fashion styles.

[Álex Montoya]

Was just joking, Gibby.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I think he meant by square inchage not quantity of outfits :tongue:

[Simon Valderrama]

hello everyone, rednewbie here

tried to make a quick composite from the bluescreen .tiff in Shake ... i really do not see much blue channel as a problem, as all wavelet compression artifacts seem to be mostly in areas where contrast isn't found and not over edges or details.
this is quite cool, try to check what happens with DV and HDV compression artifacts in comparison, they are just the opposite ... blocks and squares around edges!

sorry for the bad english, here's the pic, downscaled to SD as SD is still the standard output for TV commercials (my test was aimed at that direction)

[chuck colburn]

True professionals - Blair, Toni and Brook are way more interested in the camera than the model. Well done gentlemen.

Loved working with these guys - very fun.

Love the chopped and channled look on that particular model.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

How come your models had so little to dress with?

lol

girls and automobiles: it's Discovery Channel tastic :watsup:

[KETCH ROSSi]

True professionals - Blair, Toni and Brook are way more interested in the camera than the model. Well done gentlemen.

Loved working with these guys - very fun.

I espect the close up shots from RED on this scene to be amazing judging from the stills.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
wwwKETCHFRAME.com

[chuck colburn]

Ouch!

She was made for that car.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Ouch!

She was made for that car.

She was indeed. I've graded and re-graded that collection of shots several times now instead of doing what I should be doing. :blush: I don't recall her name (although I do have her card here somewhere), she was very nice and a pro photographer herself, too.

[PFXNBM]

Her name is Chloe Atnip.

[Joel Kaye]

Her name is Chloe Atnip.

Bet she gets tired of being called Catnip by every frat boy and their 5 drunken brothers when she goes out.

[ChrisLyon]

What VUZE channel are you using?

[Casey Green]

What VUZE channel are you using?

Yeah, we need some of our content to validate this "LART results Commentary Thread". :wink:

[Ken Corben]

What VUZE channel are you using?

Launchng the GibCor channel on Vuze - coming very soon.



Yeah, we need some of our content to validate this "LART results Commentary Thread". :wink:

It's coming in a big way. Some of the best in the business are working on it for free around their real jobs - patience Grasshopper. Should be worth the wait.

Sharky

[Casey Green]

Launchng the GibCor channel on Vuze - coming very soon.

It's coming in a big way. Some of the best in the business are working on it for free around their real jobs - patience Grasshopper. Should be worth the wait.

Sharky


heheheh - indeed. Looking forward to it. And thanks in advance guys, for stepping up with your continued generosity.

[Dane Brehm]

I'm in the the above picture in the Red Shirt. AC/Gaffing with Brook and Blair with Cloe. Hot! Toni your still the Shit!

Look at those lines...Cloe
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g184/Dane416/CloeLeg1.jpg
The three of us got some great stuff of Olga
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g184/Dane416/LA_Olga_CellTower2b.jpg

As Far as VUZE goes we are currently interfacing with GibCor and Lucas Wilson to Edit and Grade the Tests an ad music. Lots of upload-edit-download.

[Casey Green]

Hey Dane,

Nice shots... great meeting and working with you.

Looking forward to seeing the results of our efforts.

Please don't be shy about uploading higher res version of the pics? :)

[hdjoe]

Hey peps,Joe from Dave's Garage,just wanted to say that it was great meeting all of you, we at the shop had a good time working with all of you and again we hold out our hand and our welcome mat is always there for you,so if your in the ever area drop in and say hi,if by chance you working near and need a car let us know hopefuly we can be of help,we have been checking out the photos as they are posted,you really made the rides pop,and the girls did'nt do to bad of a job makeing the cars look like a $million also!!!looking forward to more great photos,
Joe

[Casey Green]

Hi Joe,

Cool to see you dropping by here. It was great meeting you and certainly a pleasure to get to shoot at your facility.

Thank you SO much for your gracious hospitality. (and thanks for helping me track down the items I left behind.) :)

There will be tons of photos and links to clips posted here soon... you ain't seen nothin yet!

Rock on!

[Paolo Tinari]

Bet she gets tired of being called Catnip by every frat boy and their 5 drunken brothers when she goes out.

If cats had dealers, they'd buy catnip

[Dane Brehm]

Likewise Casey nothing but goodtimes. Thanks for bringing out the Warner Bros gear the LED blue screen was sic! Here's a few other model photos.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g184/Dane416/LA_GiniRELFECT.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g184/Dane416/LA_TFence.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g184/Dane416/LA_Green-Gini.jpg

[Casey Green]

Dane,

I was wondering about the Vuze player. I've been checking it out, but can't seem to find any timeline scrubbing ability.

I have a feeling many of us will prefer having this feature for the LART footage. I know whenever I'm examining test clips, I like to jump around quickly to various points in time.

Is this possible to enable? Or maybe I'm missing how it's done?

thanks for your help.

[mikeburton]

Hey Casey!
All you have to do to jump around in time in the Vuze Player is to drag the blue time bar that is advancing while the movie is playing to any point you like by simply click and drag. Simple as pie!
For LART, However, we will be uploading the files in Quicktime H264 so it will be familiar for everyone. Also, our player re-encodes the files uploaded to Vuze and although it does a nice job, we don't want any more compression after spending time grading and encoding ourselves.
This way everyone will be happy with the final encoded files. We might even do a special Apple ProRes HQ file for those of us who want to see a 2K version in its full glory, but that is still up for debate. Of course, only apple/FCS2 folks can take advantage of viewing that version. Steve and Ken have the final say so on that so start your campaigning now if you guys want ProRes HQ.
Anyhow, it was good hanging with you for the weekend at LART and hopefully we can work together again soon.
Mike

[Casey Green]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I did try exactly what you suggested before posting, and for whatever reason, I just can't get the Vuze player to let me drag the timeline control. Are there certain files, perhaps that don't allow this? (I've tried several and all behave the same way.)

As far as Quicktime H264 goes, yeah that makes sense...

I might suggest to Steve and Ken that once all the clips are posted, if people want a ProRes HQ version, perhaps we could have a poll to decided which ones are selected.

Anyhow, great meeting you too. Keep in touch.

[mikeburton]

Hmmm... Strange, PC or Mac? Cause I have never had a problem with that exactly. Then again, i almost exclusively work on a mac. I have a PC here at home that i will try to duplicate that issue. I will go ahead and inquire further and see if other comments like your have come in and get back to you with an answer. Also, our player is still very much in its infancy so bear with it for the time being. We are working to improve it!!!
Mike

[Casey Green]

Hmmm... Strange, PC or Mac? Cause I have never had a problem with that exactly. Then again, i almost exclusively work on a mac. I have a PC here at home that i will try to duplicate that issue. I will go ahead and inquire further and see if other comments like your have come in and get back to you with an answer. Also, our player is still very much in its infancy so bear with it for the time being. We are working to improve it!!!
Mike

hmmm... strange.

MBPro 2.16GHz ICD
1GB 667MHz RAM
OSX 10.4.11

We can continue this by PM, if you like, as to not derail the thread to far. :)

[Casey Green]

any update on an ETA? :)

[Dane Brehm]

Mike and I did a 2K ProRes test and it will be feasible to give viewers the ability to watch the LART test in 80mbit 2K ProRes. There will also be a 720P/1080P versions for download through our player.

HDforIndies Spain RED tests are up now if you want to checkout new RED footage....

http://www.vuze.com/channel/hd/hd_for_indies

[Paolo Tinari]

HDforIndies Spain RED tests are up now if you want to checkout new RED footage....

http://www.vuze.com/channel/hd/hd_for_indies


Oh.
My.
God.
...
Thats a unique look in my opinion

[ChrisLyon]

Any word on if I'm allowed to mirror these clips? I'm ready to do so, I just need the OK.

Edit: Is this even part of LART?

[IAN SUN]

Yes for 2K ProRes.

[ChrisLyon]

The ones that are up are just 1080p though, right?

So I'll be able to mirror the 2k ProRes files?

Just trying to clarify.

[planet e]

i don't think this is part of LART, just the VUZE rep saying this is how LART will be able to be viewed...probably some friendly moderator should break it out as its own thread, i think it would be worth discussing...

there's a big fat artifact on the dancer footage, about halfway through the file. kind of a split-screen-y type of thing. someone with more knowledge of what produces this should have a look.

[Casey Green]

This is the "sensor protect flare" which is a known issue and is being addressed. (I believe it is already fixed, but perhaps the firmware version was not yet released). There have been several threads which have discussed this before. (You can also see in the center of the light source where the sensor protect spot is seen.)

I also agree that this section should be moved into it's own thread.

Here is a link to one of the threads discussing the flare:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=117940#post117940

[Dane Brehm]

HDforIndies is not LART, the HD4Indy footage was shot in Spain on one of the early REDs. Almost all of it is Steadicam. The difference between HDforIndies and GibCor/Lart will be the Color done in Scratch by a Pro Colorist.

Vuze will offer a 1080p & 720p H264 versions for the global community. 2k ProRes files will be up for the High End Apple users w/ FCP (sorry no windows plug in at this time). Vuze will be the first Online distributor to offer 2k resolution files so any one with a 30inch monitor will have the time of there life.

All we ask is once the footage is posted that everyone please seed to increase the download bandwidth for all. Thanks!

[Emmanuel Cambier]

How do you seed?

[mikeburton]

To Seed, Just leave the Vuze client running. Simple as that!
Mike

[LEON]

Mike and I did a 2K ProRes test and it will be feasible to give viewers the ability to watch the LART test in 80mbit 2K ProRes. There will also be a 720P/1080P versions for download through our player.

HDforIndies Spain RED tests are up now if you want to checkout new RED footage....

http://www.vuze.com/channel/hd/hd_for_indies

Hi, I am curious about the night shots in Spain, what lens and F/stop
did you use ?
Thank you

[Dexter Gregoire]

Anybody see the verticle black line on the "Dancer" video uploaded by Mike Burton? It happens about halfway through.

In the center and then Left. Why is that happening?

[Adrian T.]

Anybody see the verticle black line on the "Dancer" video uploaded by Mike Burton? It happens about halfway through.

In the center and then Left. Why is that happening?

Just read the WHOLE thread before asking...


This is the "sensor protect flare" which is a known issue and is being addressed. (I believe it is already fixed, but perhaps the firmware version was not yet released). There have been several threads which have discussed this before. (You can also see in the center of the light source where the sensor protect spot is seen.)

I also agree that this section should be moved into it's own thread.

Here is a link to one of the threads discussing the flare:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=117940#post117940

[Dexter Gregoire]

Sorry, I thought it was fixed two months ago when the first footage hit Reduser.
Thanks, I see next build it will be.

[planet e]

This is the "sensor protect flare" which is a known issue and is being addressed. (I believe it is already fixed, but perhaps the firmware version was not yet released). There have been several threads which have discussed this before. (You can also see in the center of the light source where the sensor protect spot is seen.)

I also agree that this section should be moved into it's own thread.

Here is a link to one of the threads discussing the flare:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=117940#post117940

casey, thank you for the link...i even read that thread awhile back, but it is easier to know what is under discussion when you can actually see an example of the problem. good to know this is already fixed.

[Shawn Nelson]

Uh...so where's all the great footage?? How come it's already been a while since the big LART and we haven't seen more than a few furtive snapshots?

[mikeburton]

Steve and Ken are both extremely busy at the moment. We are working hard on all the post end of things to bring you guys some initial results shortly. Good things to come!

[Shawn Nelson]

Will a DVD(s) be sold of the LART results? Also, will raw R3Ds be made available in any way?

[Casey Green]

I don't believe any DVDs will be sold as this was a collaborative volunteer effort. As for the posting of .R3D files, here is what Gibby had to say about that:


This thread will be for members of the LART team to post images and links to motion sequences from LART that have been processed and cleared for posting.

On this thread shortly:

- Gavin Greenwalt and Jeff Kilgroe will be posting some images here shortly of greenscreen work. Nice stuff!

- Mike from VUZE is preparing some h264 sequences to post on the new GibCor channel of VUZE. Links will be posted here.

- Some cool r3d files from various scenes we shot will be be posted for download.

We have a vast amount of r3d files, pics, frames, and test result summaries to sort through, categorize, and post. It won't happen all at once, but we'll peck away at it and progressively post more and more results. :weight_lift: :help:

Enjoy!

[Ken Corben]

Per Matt Uhry's brilliant suggestion we shot an entire scene in daylight BACKLIT by the sun to test the strengths and weaknesses of the MYSTERIUM. Sans the new upgrades from RED so results may be better? I gotta' say the edited version looks good to my eye - coming soon on VUZE.

That's me handheld and Brian in low mode on the super sweet RED Actioncam shooting simultaneously.

Sharky

[KETCH ROSSi]

I remember only seen you guys come back from that shoot, as I was on the other lot with Blair and brook shooting the creasy chases of the girls going for the exotic cars.

That looked wryly fun, so much going on in this shot, now I want to see the 2k version of that too.

Again ken, it was so much fun been there with all of you.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI

BTW: My macbook Pro keeps in crashing when downloading from VUZE.com

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I can't wait to see how this got cut together. It looked like a lot of fun to shoot, but I missed most of it. I was inside wrangling data and attending to some other things. I ran a few cards back and forth so got to see some of the action as it happened.

[Dan Blanchett]

... and Brian in low mode on the super sweet RED Actioncam shooting simultaneously.

I'm getting one of those! Sweet indeed.

[mikeburton]

Quick LART update!
We have gotten approval to move into the Conform/Grading process of our post pipeline for the first content to be uploaded.
Sleep Tight!

[Ken Corben]

BTW - we ran short of monitors so the Gibster shot #8 with a RED 50-150m lens "blind" and frickin' nailed it. Matt Uhry called it the force... see for your self on the VUZE POST.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Also, will raw R3Ds be made available in any way?

Prepping...

[Ken Corben]

What VUZE Post Ken? Just looked... Great grab! Can't wait.

It's coming...the boys at VUZE are grading now in SCRATCH and will post the link and Steve and I will add the test parameters in additional posts.

[Álex Montoya]

How's everything going?

[Steve Gibby]

Good...hope to have footage up soon.

Since LART, GibCor has also been beta testing the RED EVF, RED Drive, Element EVF mount, Element ARRI dovetail, and shortly the Birger Canon adaptor. We've already posted some impressions of all of those on various threads on RED User, but sometime soon we'll post some more on them.

GibCor also recently purchased a Zeiss 8R lens for use in our water housings. I think Ken Corben will post impressions of that lens sometime soon, most likely on the Underwater Users thread and the lens test forum. Its a specialty wide angle lens, that not a lot of people will be buying, but I think many will be curious about the results. Initial burst chart tests on it were impressive.

[SF Geek]

Gibby,
I understand that you and the rest of the people still involved in LART are busy, but I would really like to hear impressions on the different accessories. It looks like I'll be making an order soon and I would really appreciate an unbiased review on the different items as well as tripod heads, if you guys tested any of those. I'll be able to look at some of the Red accessories before purchase, but not as in depth as might have been done at LART. Perhaps there is someone from the test with more time who could write something up. I understand that work takes priority.

thanks

[mikeburton]

Hey Everyone!

Here is a LART update from the Vuze Camp...

First off, thank you all very much for your patience. I know it has been some time since LART took place and we are all using the time we have as best we can to bring you footage from the event.

Everyone is currently getting back from the holiday and we are in the Grading Phase of our first few pieces of content from LART. We are still editing as well and will be bringing you multiple ways to be able to view the footage from 1K - 2K versions.

Thank you all again for your patience and we should have something shortly for your viewing pleasure on Vuze!

Mike Burton
Dane Brehm
www.vuze.com

[vincelucero]

BTW - we ran short of monitors so the Gibster shot #8 with a RED 50-150m lens "blind" and frickin' nailed it. Matt Uhry called it the force... see for your self on the VUZE POST.

I love challenging situations like that. Awesomeness Luke!!!! Or is it Yoda?

[Dane Brehm]

Whats funny thing is we actually used a couple of the high angle "blind" shots that Gibby shot and they look great.

That was a giant RED cluster F*** but Matt Uhry came through along with the great professionals we had on-set making it happen.

[Steve Gibby]

Whats funny thing is we actually used a couple of the high angle "blind" shots that Gibby shot and they look great.

Explanation for the forum: we had one more RED camera than we had LCDs to monitor them with. My personal LCD was being used on the ActionCam, but for the fight scene we needed a high angle shot from a rolling stair unit about 12' high placed by the side of the scene. I told Matt I could get the shot "blind", using no viewfinder or LCD for reference. He said "OK lets do it!". I shot the fight scene that way: using a prototype RED 50-150 zoom, estimating the distance to the action, focusing on the lens barrel according to my distance estimate, shoulder held the camera, keeping my head close to the lens barrel, leaving the lens at 50mm, and sighting down the lens to estimate the field of view coverage. There were several martial arts fights going on simultaneously, so I panned and tilted (shoulder held) to each after about 10 seconds coverage per fight. I have a copy of all the footage shot by all the cameras on both days of LART. I've reviewed my "blind" shots. They worked pretty well.

Moral of the story: "Even a blind hog can find an acorn occasionally"

[SF Geek]

I'm starting to think that LART didn't actually happen. I understand that Gibcor is very busy, but it does no good to get info on products after they have already been purchased. Is there nobody that can take up the torch Gibby, anyone you can trust?

[Steve Gibby]

I'm starting to think that LART didn't actually happen. I understand that Gibcor is very busy, but it does no good to get info on products after they have already been purchased. Is there nobody that can take up the torch Gibby, anyone you can trust?

Ahhhh....I assure you that LART actually happened: 30 professional producers, directors, DPs, cinematographers, and editors for two full days with 5 REDs, multiple kits, multiple lenses quickly tested, and several multi-camera professional scenes shot.

Everyone on the LART team has carried the torch, before, during, and after LART. We've worked hard, on top of busy regular schedules, to preview, edit, color correct, and process scenes for h264, 1080p, and 720p screening on VUZE.

Every one of the five cameras bought and brought to LART, and all the accessories and lenses, were bought by us early adopters collectively without the benefit of someone going before us to test the cameras, lenses, and equipment, so if you're complaining about maybe having to do the same thing because our donated time, free of charge, isn't getting to you fast enough, then your complaint will fall on deaf ears.

We're working through our results as fast as possible under the circumstances, and we'll roll them out when they are finished and we are ready...and you and others will get the benefit of our hard work for free. If it doesn't quite fit your timeframe, then that's the way it goes.

If it will help you, email me a simple list of the specific RED items you're looking to buy real soon, I'll email you back my opinion of those items. You can find my email address on the contact page of my web site at the link below.

[mattb]

hi, i was curious if any of the fight footage is up on the net yet?

My name is Matt Berberi, I'm one of the stunt guys that did some of the fights.
Anyways It was great to work with everyone and I cant wait to see the final products.
-Matt

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Part of the hold up is limitations imposed by the interweb. If you want to see all the various blue and greenscreen tests in r3d RAW without trimming it's around 15-20GB I think. Even just putting it up on an FTP is going to take a week of attended uploading and then a handful of people downloading could easily push most accounts over their bandwidth limits for the month.

If RED could release a trim tool or would allow us to use proof-of-concept trim tools. There would be a signficant flow of data.

I might just start converting things to cineform, but then you wouldn't be able to play with it in its raw state.

It's frustrating. But it's the way things are.

And that's ignoring all of our packed schedules. I think you'll probably see more in a few weeks as the holiday/new year crunch tends to thin out and get back into the routine. Or at least that's the cycle we tend to see.

[Steve Sherrick]

I'm starting to think that LART didn't actually happen. I understand that Gibcor is very busy, but it does no good to get info on products after they have already been purchased. Is there nobody that can take up the torch Gibby, anyone you can trust?

Ummm...Understand the frustration, but not the best way to go about trying to get results. Think about what these guys are doing. I imagine Gibcor is pretty busy these days considering some of the clients they are working with. So the fact they are cramming this in at all is pretty impressive.

And remember this, what works for one may have no use by another. So Steve would probably agree with this that even best review of a piece of gear can only go so far until you use it and come to your own conclusions. So yes, LART will provide a baseline for you but you'll need to test, test, and test as well.

Steve

[KETCH ROSSi]

I think that most importantly every one must not forget that what Gibby and Sharky put together at LART ( great event, had a blast ) was all done as a self funded project, they didn't get paid for doing this, but I assure you it did cost money to produce and GibCor paid for.

So beside the fact that I know we are all very thankful for their time (and money ) invested in LART, we now must all understand that most of as have to work ( well, I work from home so I should not count ) so it is to be understood that it will take longer to do this.

If anything we should all be happy for GibCor been so busy working their REDs, as the more this cameras are put to work by professionals, the more the cameras are put to all kind of tests, on the field.

I just recently sent out to Gibby just about 400 photos of LART ( well most of them of the girls, hoops) so also be looking forward to see some of them posted, but I patiently waite for the footage results to be posted.

BTW, this post it is not meant to offend any one, it is just that I want I want, should be thanks thanks, will waite to see what you guys had very generously pull out at LART for all of as to see.

P.S. If some of this makes no sense to you, don't wary I'm Italian and my center of toughts when translated in English might not always be as intended.


Ciao,
KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[Finner]

Well said Ketch

Both Steve and Ken worked very hard to pull LART off and all their planning and logistics to pull it off was a ton of work.

Thanks Steve and Ken

[KETCH ROSSi]

hi, i was curious if any of the fight footage is up on the net yet?

My name is Matt Berberi, I'm one of the stunt guys that did some of the fights.
Anyways It was great to work with everyone and I cant wait to see the final products.
-Matt

Hey Matt, are you in here?

BTW, this are all from LART ( daah, not to bad for an event that didn't tuck place)

Be patient guys results will come soon.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI

[Rob Lohman]

If RED could release a trim tool or would allow us to use proof-of-concept trim tools. There would be a signficant flow of data.

Soon, I promise! In the meantime maybe output some H.264 or ProRes clips?

[mattb]

hey, thanks for those photos ketch.

I didn't mean to sound impatient or anything in my previous post. I just have been trying to navigate through various threads on this forum, and after not having much luck, i thought maybe I'd just make a post and see if anything was available. But I totally understand that its not an overnight thing. So i hope i didnt sound impatient.

[Jim Arthurs]

I'm starting to think that LART didn't actually happen. I understand that Gibcor is very busy, but it does no good to get info on products after they have already been purchased. Is there nobody that can take up the torch Gibby, anyone you can trust?

It does take to to process footage and results, but not all the burden of public testing need be on L.A.R.T.

Last Monday RED 232's first public shoot was to create content and do tests for the REDUSER community. Jon Firestone and Chris Bagley are to be commended for organizing a very nice event where much good work was done. Chris Lyon as well for hosting services. Again, all of it in public service.

I personally did the posting of tests and footage, spread out over different threads, and now just now realized how much was done in one little morning/afternoon shoot and already shared with REDUSER, so here's a summary;

-Blue and Green screen .R3D files. These were the first usable key clips posted for everyone to test and experiment with. These were cleverly shot so that the maximum size was small enough to post. No crappy QT's or other compromises.

-Over 4 gigs of an entire sequence of shots presented as .R3D files. Tired of cutting the same clips over and over? Want to test a REDCINE workflow? Here's a full scene in wide, CU's and cutaways. Another first.

-3200K vrs 5600K testing. The first ever done and the results shared instantly.

-Rolling shutter. First public tests for both skew and compression.

Guys, I'd argue in the short history of RED no single camera has done so much for the group good as RED 232 and the people behind it. And this came from nowhere! We just did it and got the results out ASAP despite equally busy schedules.

One other point... L.A.R.T. did accept donations for a "snack fund"... so I'd be careful when telling someone "you'll get it when you get it and be glad of it" to at least check and see if they contributed to your party, as all these folks are in some way helping out... after all, I myself did... and the irony is that our RED #232 out of pocket expense for last Monday was the exact amount I personally gave to L.A.R.T. for snacks...

Regards...

[donatello b]

i know a few ( there could be many i just know a few) persons working on LART post things .. they have every day job and they are putting in their own time on post ...

lets hold on just a wee bit more ....

i've been out on test everyday for past 10 days and i have not had a chance to look at any clips, read the paper, look at mail ...whoops - taxes are due today - gotta go !!

[Casey Green]

Hopefully we see footage within the next week or so.

[jbeale]

I had a few specific questions about Red One performance. I was lucky enough to get hands-on with a camera for a day, and shoot my tests. Working through my footage and understanding what it is telling me will take me at least a month; probably much more. All my R3D files total under 11 GB... I suspect LART recorded a lot more.

[Steve Gibby]

-Blue and Green screen .R3D files. These were the first usable key clips posted for everyone to test and experiment with. These were cleverly shot so that the maximum size was small enough to post. No crappy QT's or other compromises.

Gavin Greenwalt and Jeff Kilgroe shot multiple blue screen and green screen tests at LART. If you track Gavin’s comments on this thread, you’ll see our progress processing them. Yeah, we didn’t rush them up to post, but then again we’re thorough in our approach to processing files.


-Over 4 gigs of an entire sequence of shots presented as .R3D files. Tired of cutting the same clips over and over? Want to test a REDCINE workflow? Here's a full scene in wide, CU's and cutaways. Another first.

At LART we shot 10 multi-camera professional scenes, using four RED one cameras – all with pro level DPs and cinematographers. As longtime professionals working in the industry, we are in the habit of posting our work professionally before sharing it for viewing. Some of the multi-camera scenes from LART are ready to put up, which will happen shortly. Others will follow when they have been professionally posted to our satisfaction.


-3200K vrs 5600K testing. The first ever done and the results shared instantly.

Actually we did 3200 vs 5600k testing at LART long before you did. Congratulations on sharing your results instantly. We felt better about analyzing our results and will post a summary along with our other results.


-Rolling shutter. First public tests for both skew and compression.

Actually, at LART we did the first public tests for rolling shutter, skew and compression. Congratulations on sharing your results instantly. We felt better about analyzing our results and will post a summary along with our other results.


Guys, I'd argue in the short history of RED no single camera has done so much for the group good as RED 232 and the people behind it.

Oh really? RED #8 has been used intensively for almost five months now, doing several world firsts (3D, underwater, aerial, B4, and on and on), and untold amounts of impressions and results have been posted here on RED User from the camera, and a boatload of other feedback from the camera to RED that was never posted here, and a relative latecomer camera like RED 232, outdoes that contribution to “the group” by simply doing some quick tests and rushing some results to the forum? And Offhollywoods RED 6 & 7 have contributed massive amounts of on-forum info and feedback, plus copious amounts of feedback to RED, and Blair’s #19 (at LART), and Billy’s #13 (at LART), etc, etc, etc. Your statement is ludicrous…


We just did it and got the results out ASAP despite equally busy schedules.

Congratulations on rushing your results to the forum. We had infinitely more footage and data to crunch from LART than you did at your one-camera test. We had 30 people, extensive lens tests, greenscreen/bluescreen, stabilization unit tests (Steadicam and ActionCam), five RED cameras, jibs, 10 stunt men, actors, a SCRATCH station, a VUZE editing station, and about 400GB of raw footage to sort through. Then it had to go to initial color correction, editing, correction, and finally mastering for delivery. That’s a ton more things to do than you had in your limited scope event.

And how do you know your schedule is as busy as the 30 highly experienced motion media industry veterans who comprised the LART team? Pretty heavy motion media industry in Colorado Springs, eh Jim?


One other point... L.A.R.T. did accept donations for a "snack fund"... so I'd be careful when telling someone "you'll get it when you get it and be glad of it" to at least check and see if they contributed to your party, as all these folks are in some way helping out... after all, I myself did... and the irony is that our RED #232 out of pocket expense for last Monday was the exact amount I personally gave to L.A.R.T. for snacks...

Me and Ken Corben put in several months of planning and management to pull off the LART event, with professional kits, crews, and facilities. We’re seasoned professionals currently co-producing multiple national television programs and a feature movie. If we line itemed in a budget breakdown what our time is worth to produce LART it would be a sizeable sum. We donated that time and revenue generation loss to this community for the good of the community. The donations for snacks for the LART team were much appreciated, as I posted. That said, it was just a tiny amount compared the out of pocket expenses and lost revenue from lost time that me and Corben contributed to LART.

-------------------------

This is a LART results commentary thread on the dedicated L.A. RED Test sub-forum. I used to moderate RED User, for several months, but due to a busy schedule I only moderate one forum on RED User – and this one is it. Scroll to the bottom of the page and view the moderators and you’ll see my name. Congratulations on your tests with RED 232. I think its great that you tested and posted results on other forums of RED User. I don’t think it is great that you chose to post on this dedicated LART results forum your belittling of LART and criticism of the speed of my rollout of the LART results.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Gavin Greenwalt and Jeff Kilgroe shot multiple blue screen and green screen tests at LART. If you track Gavin’s comments on this thread, you’ll see our progress processing them. Yeah, we didn’t rush them up to post, but then again we’re thorough in our approach to processing files.

I like instant gratification too, but a lot of us have been busy in different ways. I've got the LART blue/green footage here and have worked with it off and on. Unfortunately, my systems have been swamped and I haven't had a chance to finish what I've started working with in regards to the LART footage (integrating subjects from the bluescreen tests with CG elements). I don't have an ETA yet. It's not so much an issue of time, but of resources and conflicting deadlines. ...Holidays threw a kink in there too.

I'm curious to know a few things from Jim's tests... I haven't analyzed all his findings shot with camera #232. But what was found with the Red channel in 3200K vs 5600K and in between? At LART some of our most useful findings were actually contained in the Red channel and were not specifically related to the Blue channel or the various levels of noise and artifacting found there.

I've run across a lot of the diamond or box pattern noise and OLPF flares, but it seems that much of that has been improved with the new cameras and firmware.

Gibby has explained in several posts, but I think a lot of people are still confused about what LART was. It wasn't a strict regiment of highly controlled or analytical testing. It was an opportunity to test or try the RED camera in a variety of shooting situations. Much of the footage shot at LART probably isn't something to be critically analyzed, but rather it can show some characteristics of the RED image. And people can ask "how did the RED handle when you shot that?"

I honestly left LART with far more questions about processing REDCODE and image anomalies than I had going in. But I was able to confirm a lot of what I had surmised about RED and the use of the camera. I learned a great deal about RED workflow and configurations that one just can't get by reading online and looking at pictures. The knowledge I obtained at LART combined with what I know of the new batch of gen-"X" cameras has pointed me toward a specific set of tests I would like to begin once Erik's #519 and my #1110 arrive. ...Looks like we're going to just miss out on this next round of shipments for #519 though.

I do agree with Jim Arthurs in that posting usable test footage from a RED One shouldn't be a big deal. The lack of available footage from very specific and controlled tests is somewhat of a curiosity. No fault of the LART event by any means, I think once people see the bulk of the LART footage and realize what was shot, it will make more sense... With over 100 cameras in the wild, I'm surprised there isn't more downloadable goodies to look at.

[Jim Arthurs]

I don’t think it is great that you chose to post on this dedicated LART results forum your belittling of LART and criticism of the speed of my rollout of the LART results.

Fair enough.

I do feel critical of L.A.R.T for various reasons. Most of the tests I did were in response to of lack of L.A.R.T feedback on these topics. I will refrain from expressing my frustration in the future.

Regards

[Dexter Gregoire]

Is there a report anywhere available? A real report.

I don't care to see pictures of beautiful women. I'm married, I get enough t1ts and a55.

I want to read a report of what to expect as to the advantages and limitations of RED. Are you still keeping secrets?

[chuck colburn]

Gibby,

Suit up, breath deeply and ride those winter waves! lol

[Jim Arthurs]

I'm curious to know a few things from Jim's tests... I haven't analyzed all his findings shot with camera #232. But what was found with the Red channel in 3200K vs 5600K and in between?

Hi Jeff... feel free to grab the raw .R3D's or the DPX's if you wish... it's all "open source" so to speak for anyone to look at. It will be interesting to see how those images compare to the pre-modifications on the original 100.


Gibby has explained in several posts, but I think a lot of people are still confused about what LART was. It wasn't a strict regiment of highly controlled or analytical testing. It was an opportunity to test or try the RED camera in a variety of shooting situations. Much of the footage shot at LART probably isn't something to be critically analyzed, but rather it can show some characteristics of the RED image. And people can ask "how did the RED handle when you shot that?"

That's the best description I've yet heard. Thank you. Understand that forum members not involved in L.A.R.T. have heard mostly cross-chatter between L.A.R.T. members about how much fun they had, how hot this model is, the fun personalities of this guy or that guy, but precious little information about what was shot and what was concluded.


The lack of available footage from very specific and controlled tests is somewhat of a curiosity. No fault of the LART event by any means, I think once people see the bulk of the LART footage and realize what was shot, it will make more sense... With over 100 cameras in the wild, I'm surprised there isn't more downloadable goodies to look at.

Agreed. I've seen this same pattern happen with most cameras since the web has been a method for people to endlessly discuss them.

Jim J. himself mentioned that our skew tests were essentially what they were seeing in house. I don't think a couple extra weeks of looking at the images would have changed what we presented in either that case or the color temperature issue...

Besides, how valid are the hardcore tests done at L.A.R.T in light of the new generation of cameras? Maybe that phase should simply die away and let new info trickle in via other owners with the newer cameras?

[Michael Schrengohst]

Or, new RED owners in haste will rush less than perfect footage out the
door and then make endless excuses about backfocus, op error,
not understanding RED software or other excuses and then the naysayers
at the other sites who are upside down with expensive equipment loans go on the attack.
So I understand that LART may want to "upload" only the best RED footage available.

[Casey Green]

Hang in there, everyone. I'm sure LART results will be posted soon. I'm as anxious as anyone, and I was one of the participants.

I might suggest, however, that we start a new "LART Results Commentary Thread" when the Clips and Data are released, since this thread is already 90 posts deep. I know I wouldn't want to wade through all of these posts first.

[Finner]

That's the best description I've yet heard. Thank you. Understand that forum members not involved in L.A.R.T. have heard mostly cross-chatter between L.A.R.T. members about how much fun they had, how hot this model is, the fun personalities of this guy or that guy, but precious little information about what was shot and what was concluded.


What you have heard from myself or others has all been the superficial details due to NDA.

[Jim Arthurs]

Now (better) understood.

And Finner... you ARE a personality. :)

[Gunleik Groven]

Hey Jim & LART

Actually it has been very nice to have Jims footy to look at (as RAW and unprocessed footy) for a lot of differnet reasons. (for a guy still waiting...)

I agree it's kinda odd to post about it on this thread, but nevertheless, RAW footy has its absolute and non-diminishable value for future Red users.

So does professionally posted footy.

And the best is examples of both... (I know. You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT upload 400 gb of RAW material. But for some shots...)

Anyway. Don't make this a contest or complaint. It's all very much appreciated. I like seeing the problems as much as the successes, actually. The problems do not put me off, but let me prepare. The successes are inspirational.

Cheers

and thanks

Gunleik

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Also know that we've been throwing a lot of feedback straight at RED. For instance Jeff mentioned the diamond issue. Three of us made a point of pestering RED about cold weather performance whenever we got a chance during LART. It is going slow and we arne't making a lot of progress in some areas and I feel bad about it but there is also more subtle work at play based on what we're seeing than just posting r3d files and calling it a day.

Testing for the sake of testing is one thing. Testing for the sake of change is another.

For instance we did strobe testing at LART. You'll never see that footage because it didn't produce the result we wanted. I could throw it up tonight except it would serve no purpose except to confuse people and bring down a lot of anger at me for doing the test wrong. But it was one of those cases where you wouldn't know to do the test the right way until you've done it wrong once and seen what happened. :D

Also don't hold your breath for 'benchmark' footage. The greenscreen was admittedly haphazard and only 5'x8' I think. The Bluescreen was much larger but still not a professional cyc wall with color matched kinos a big light kid and a day of prep. What it will show though is a large variety of skintones, hair colors, clothing colors and the like to demonstrate the differences and challenges that RED might present. Variety over depth was the testing criteria.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I honestly left LART with far more questions about processing REDCODE and image anomalies than I had going in. But I was able to confirm a lot of what I had surmised about RED and the use of the camera. I learned a great deal about RED workflow and configurations that one just can't get by reading online and looking at pictures.
.

If that was your most important take away I'm sure you were not alone.. Couldn't we just have a discussion about, or even just hear about all that you people learned about RED workflow and configurations?
With the NDA's it's all a bit: we all went to this GREAT party but we can't talk about it.. Well you all did a LOT of shouting about it for months before it happened: LART has it's own fixed thread etc etc Everyone else just posts their footage or new opinions and fades away.
Also as time flies by and you can't talk about it or post any images, doesn't the whole thing become increasingly irrelevant for everyone else?

[Gunleik Groven]

I see your point Gavin, and as mentioned here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=137876#post137876
I've been reluctant to post in English what I've seen from some tests... :)

BUT
As I've actually bought into this thing, it's good to see the God, the Bad and the Ugly. Nothing's gonna change my view, but quite a lot might change my approach and how i shoot when I receive my cam.

The thing is:
Should we have a closed forum for people (like me) who's gonna buy the cam anyway - and really would like to see the best AND worst results from using it (and how these results wre e accomplished), or is just the good and pro results interesting?

I've seen real crap from Red (and probably will shot some). :)
Some of that crap has been due to technical problems with the Red.
Some have been due to people treating it as a 35mm film cam
And some have been due to basically bad shoting.

All have been quite informative. More so than the "best" shots. To me at least - as I've long ago bought into the thing...

I'm NOT looking for bad shots per se, just looking for informed information (or RAW files) to get a better picture on how to get a better picture.

Sorta.. p:

Cheers!

Gunleik

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Haha, well it's not a question of scaring people away by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that the test is useless. It was literally the very last thing anybody tested. The cameras were going in bags and people were saying goodbye and leaving for hotels/flights etc and I pursuaded a camera out of its bag to shoot some real quick stuff of a strobe light with Finner.

And unfortunately we happened to have the world's fastest strobe light. :) You can see it warm up... illuminate the frame for about 50 pixels and then fade out. And we were shooting at something rediculous like 1/1000th of a second and we still only captured 50 pixels of it.

It answered the question I had been curious about "does the RED read from top to bottom like a conventional sensor or are they doing something new and clever like outward from center or diagonally or who knows what." But that just confirmed that it was a standard readout pattern, which is pretty clear in a great number of other shots. Beyond that it was pretty much useless. And our strobe was too short and too slow to ignite to determine if there is any sort of feathering going on in the readout somehow. Jim Arthur's strobe tests are far more methodical and useful.

[Finner]

It did however give us some nice alone time in a dark bathroom Gavin.

[Gunleik Groven]

I reallly love the thought of that :)

g

[Jim Arthurs]

Gavin and Jeff... I appreciate the hard work you're doing here and know it's hard enough to pull time for this sort of thing... in regards to anything that fringes on testing... you know, it might be enough to just (soon as your NDA is MIA) write out a summary of your individual experiences and thoughts.

With all the rapid changes in firmware and the new cameras in general, this sort of thing might be more interesting than tests. Same goes for all the participants. I know I'd like to hear your war stories because everyone will have a different point of view on what they saw or experienced.

Since we can't clip yet down .R3D's into bite sized clips, distribution of all the scenerios you shot over the weekend is another thing... what to do... in addition to that on-line channel you're working with, one option could be that the material would be great booth presentation and RED theatre fare, or what ever RED plans for events like NAB and Apple tours...

Just a thought.

[Steve Gibby]

Gavin and Jeff... I appreciate the hard work you're doing here and know it's hard enough to pull time for this sort of thing... in regards to anything that fringes on testing... you know, it might be enough to just (soon as your NDA is MIA) write out a summary of your individual experiences and thoughts.

With all the rapid changes in firmware and the new cameras in general, this sort of thing might be more interesting than tests. Same goes for all the participants. I know I'd like to hear your war stories because everyone will have a different point of view on what they saw or experienced.

Since we can't clip yet down .R3D's into bite sized clips, distribution of all the scenerios you shot over the weekend is another thing... what to do... in addition to that on-line channel you're working with, one option could be that the material would be great booth presentation and RED theatre fare, or what ever RED plans for events like NAB and Apple tours...

Just a thought.

The NDA is simply a tool we always use in any project we are producing to ensure that we, as producers of the event, have the right to release the information when we see fit, and when we choose. Every attendee at LART signed an NDA which acknowledges that Steve Gibby has the final say on when and how the results are publicly distributed. There's no unnecessary secrecy going on here. Fact is, me and Ken spent copious amounts of time and resources producing the event, and as such reserved the right via NDA to release the results and specific info from the event. The NDA isn't going MIA. Its permanent. In asking the LART team member to at some point itemize their specific experiences, you are in effect asking them to disregard a written NDA they each signed as part of their entry requirements to LART.

Very shortly this morning I will be starting a thread on this forum posting the summaries of Finner and Matt Uhry on their lens testing at LART. They submitted their finding summaries to me, and as I always intended, their findings will be posted nearly verbatim for how they delivered them to me.

Jeff and Gavin did some excellent work under the limitations - and their work was much appreciated.

There's no secrecy or weirdness going on here - just normal business by professional producers who reserved the right to release info on an event they produced - something that happens every day, everywhere in this industry.

As right holder to the info and footage from LART, and knowing the public display of the top-quality footage from LART will be beneficial to anyone interested in RED cameras, and totally separate from our posting of edited LART scenes on the VUZE LART channel, I have specifically authorized RED to use some of the footage for display purposes. The LART team graciously donated their valuable time and equipment to the effort, so nobody, including myself, RED, or anyone else will ever use the LART footage in a commercially available enterprise.

Again, and I've posted it many times before, LART was never positioned as a deep-drilling bench test event. We tested scores of lenses, and the summaries of the results will be posted on a new thread I'll start shortly today. Yes we did have some limitations on the green and blue screen testing, but we only had two days for the event, and the facility we were in was fantastic for what we did - hands on multi-camera practical use of RED cameras and kits by experienced professionals.

The edited results of those scenes should be very valuable to RED User members in that it shows the end product potential of the cameras in experienced hands. We had the latest upgrades to the cameras as of the testing time, and yes there have been upgrades since then, but then end result, the footage, is and will be very comparable. I don't expect Stephen Soderbergh or other producers to toss away and re-do their movies shot on RED just because they were shot using earlier builds of the camera. Good cinematography, editing, and correction are the real technical core of a good finished product, and that stands the test of time.

[Steve Gibby]

If that was your most important take away I'm sure you were not alone.. Couldn't we just have a discussion about, or even just hear about all that you people learned about RED workflow and configurations?
With the NDA's it's all a bit: we all went to this GREAT party but we can't talk about it.. Well you all did a LOT of shouting about it for months before it happened: LART has it's own fixed thread etc etc Everyone else just posts their footage or new opinions and fades away.
Also as time flies by and you can't talk about it or post any images, doesn't the whole thing become increasingly irrelevant for everyone else?

See my NDA post above which sheds some light on your questions. Yes, me and Ken Corben, as producers of LART, and rights holders to the info and results of the tests and shooting, always intended to post summaries of LART testing results. Some of that has trickled out from LART members, but in actuality the proper source for posting of the results summaries is myself and Corben. Those results summaries of LART members are not heavily edited by myself or Corben, but rather grammatically corrected if needed, and verified for accuracy.

The NDA simply serves to ensure that the results are posted accurately, and stems the arrival of fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD), which obviously can run rampant on a forum when bits and pieces of inaccurate or partially accurate info filters outward.

Shortly today, on a new thread on this LART forum, I'll post the Matt Uhry and Finners excellent summary of their lens tests at LART. As I've already posted, edited scenes are nearly complete and will be posted on VUZE as soon as we can. All of the scenes shot at LART will not be posted simultaneously on VUZE. It takes a ton of post work to get them ready. We all have pride in our professional work and we're taking care to post these scenes correctly, just as we would with our regular movies and television programs we produce.

[Steve Gibby]

This thread is long and winding. I moderate this LART forum, so I think its a good idea for us to consider this thread closed, because I'm about to open a new LART results thread on the forum, with the initial post on that thread being the LART lens test summary.