D-Taps on Battery Plate [Archive]

Jarred Land

12-06-2007, 11:01 AM

We are receiving complaints that people are plugging in external accessories through the D-tap upside down, and blowing up monitors etc.

You can easily plug D-Tap cables in upside down and reverse the polarity, which can be damaging if not fatal for both camera and the accessory you are trying to power..

Please be careful when you plug in D-taps... they are a pretty standard power port that most people have seen before, and the problem relates to any device that uses d-taps (not just Red). It might sound obvious, but it is happening out there and people are expecting us to be liable for repair. Plugging stuff in backwards isn't under warranty, but we really do feel bad when it happens :)

jbeale

12-06-2007, 11:11 AM

I have no experience with D-taps or even know what one looks like (sounds like I'm not the only one! :-) I wonder if some kind of warning label or polarity marking logo would reduce this type of call?

Update: I guess this is an example:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/485555-REG/IDX_FS_CABLE_KIT_FSCABLEKIT_Dual_D_Tap_Cable.html

It is unfortunate that anyone allowed a DC power connector that is reversable, to become a standard. I guess it was originally intended just for lights, which could work either way? On the other hand, I've heard a fair number of people have killed their camcorder's 4-pin mini-firewire port by jamming the cable in upside down, so I guess "idiot-proofing" is hard.

Finner

12-06-2007, 11:21 AM

Other cameras that I have worked with have all the power taps only able to plug one way making it impossible to reverse the polarity. Is it not possible to use taps like this when most accesories are very expensive and idiot proof taps are a necessity.

Greg M

12-06-2007, 11:30 AM

Jarred,
FYI- All of my d-taps EXCEPT Red do not allow the cable to be plugged in the wrong way. You should talk to your vendor about this, it looks like the design needs a fix. I posted a request that this should be addressed about a month ago.

NOTE TO RED USERS:
The d-tap is clearly labeled with a + and -...the connector also has the same.

BE SURE TO CHECK POLARITY BEFORE PLUGGING THE CABLE IN

I have taped over my connector w/ red gaffers tape to prevent an accident, as you shouldnt be able to plug this in backwards.

Mike Prevette

12-06-2007, 11:38 AM

Greg M

12-06-2007, 11:41 AM

No hammer needed Mike...the connector fits either way with ease. Bottom line is it should not.

Scott Webster

12-06-2007, 11:42 AM

The plug has a flair to it so you are only able to plug it in one way, BUT from what I heard the RED's port is a little to lose on the tolerance of that flair, and so with a big enough hammer you can get it in upside down. I haven't confirmed this with my own eye it's just heresay

Mike, You do not need a hammer. The D-tap will connect as easily the wrong way as the correct way. It is not possible to do this with any other D-tap port.

Jarred Land

12-06-2007, 11:54 AM

you guys are all right.. Dtaps are named Dtaps because they are supposed to be keyed with the shape of a "D".

problem is, depending on what cable you use (who its made by) , you can plug it in backwards. This is not a Red only problem, I have a Varicam here, and Anton and IDX plates that all accept the D tap backwards.

Trust me.. we saw this 8 months ago when we first got our plates and I screamed bloody murder... only to realize its actually there isnt much we can do about it (except get rid of the D-tap all together)

Greg M

12-06-2007, 11:54 AM

btw- this is somthing I pointed out to my staff-
When inserted the correct way you can hear a subtle click, when inserted the wrong way you wont hear the click. Just something to keep in mind.

Hopefully this will be fixed though.

Greg M

12-06-2007, 11:59 AM

Anders Holck

12-06-2007, 12:04 PM

I had these non standard "Chineese" D-Taps on my steadicam batteries.

The fix was to apply a few drops of superglue on the inside of the connector to get it in spec.
Not only does the connector have a D shape, but the two power pins are mounted off center, towards the straight side.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/431644.jpg

Not that it should be nesscesary.....

John DeBoer

12-06-2007, 12:04 PM

Jarred:

I just went back and checked my IDX plates, F900rs and varicams. It is impossible for me to plug them in backwards.

We are not using Knock off cable ends, so might that be the problem, and not the camera side?

Jarred Land

12-06-2007, 12:28 PM

Jarred,
You guys should talk to Anton Bauer. They are making a RED specific AB plate complete with LEMO connector...this should be ready anytime now and Red should consider adding this as an option. For now I have covered the RED D-tap and we only use the AB D-tap which works correctly.

we have.. all our battery plates can take a Vlock or Anton Bauer plate.. there are mounting holes for both.

I like your idea of swapping out the V-lock D-tap for a AB plate w/ Lemo.. would solve this issue really quick.

Greg M

12-06-2007, 12:30 PM

here is another solution...super glue this to your RED :)

but seriously, this will not allow reverse connections, as long as you are sure the single connector to your RED is correct.
We use this to power multiple devices.

Finner

12-06-2007, 12:32 PM

Scott Webster

12-06-2007, 12:57 PM

I like that idea very much as well as with the speed things on set a problematic D tap will cause constant issues.

Does this mean RED is considering changeing the bad D taps to Lemo's on all the camera bodies?

I think you and Jarred have read Greg's post the wrong way. I interpreted his post to read that Anton Bauer will be supplying an AB plate with a lemo tail to connect to the camera. I'm sure the AB plate itself will have the standard D-tap port.

I hope the AB plate will have the ability to provide the power remaining readout on the camera LCD rather than 'AC'

Greg M

12-06-2007, 01:19 PM

I think you and Jarred have read Greg's post the wrong way. I interpreted his post to read that Anton Bauer will be supplying an AB plate with a lemo tail to connect to the camera. I'm sure the AB plate itself will have the standard D-tap port.

I hope the AB plate will have the ability to provide the power remaining readout on the camera LCD rather than 'AC'

correct-- The AB mount will include the lemo cable to plug in the back of the Red...and yes I hope it supports the power reading as well.

Jarred Land

12-06-2007, 02:05 PM

My bad i did mess up the wording, I meant to say " switch out the V lock with the new lemo from AB. AB's plate's Dtap is very tight and its very hard to put in the plug backwards ( although it is still possible).

Just to be clear.. we are not thinking of removing the D-taps off the red V-Lock.

Red did anticipate people wanting to use AB plates, which is why we including AB bolt patterns.

Curran Giddens

12-06-2007, 02:32 PM

Maybe the user manual should have a warning in Physical Controls section for newbies like me:

CAUTION:
BE SURE TO CHECK POLARITY BEFORE PLUGGING THE CABLE IN.
The d-tap is clearly labeled with a + and -...the connector also has the same.
Plugging the cable in the wrong way may result in equipment failure.

Wes Printz

12-07-2007, 06:19 AM

I have seen this problem mostly on the SWIT brand battery plates. The tolerances don't seem to be adhered to as tightly as IDX or Anton Bauer. When making cables, I opt only for the true Anton Bauer Power tap plug. IDX offered me a sample a while back I said thanks, but I'll stick with the what I've been using. I have seen the imitation Power-tap plugs fit reversed in an Anton Bauer plate as well. There are other places you can save money, not in the connectors which power your camera or accessories or should I call it... your investment.

Recently, I ran across a problem with a SWIT V-lock plate which the battery was able to "wiggle" loose, and the camera would shut down. By substituting the V-lock Ass'y from an IDX plate, the problem was resolved.

Jarred, has the IDX pattern been included as well?

Stuart English

12-07-2007, 06:56 AM

.. has the IDX pattern been included as well?

Yes it has.

Jarred Land

12-07-2007, 08:14 AM

When making cables, I opt only for the true Anton Bauer Power tap plug.

i would agree with that.. the AB D-Taps are definitely solid.

Bob Rudis

12-13-2007, 11:26 AM

Harry Clark

12-13-2007, 06:58 PM

I agree with the other posters about the rock-solid OEM Anton Bauer parts. I have 2 HDX-900s, an SDX-900, and HVX-200, and several of the A/B 4-way power tap splitters. Lots of power cables for monitors, Firestores, even a special zoom cable that works with my Pro-35.
There is NO WAY to plug in one of the A/B connectors backwards unless you force it. I'll be using the A/B part ONLY. No knockoffs on my camera.
But seriously, why no fuse and polarity protection on the camera???
Cheers,
Harry

ericyoung

12-14-2007, 03:23 AM

Jarred, Wondering how/why you guys decided to go with anything other than an AB plate for battery power. AB has been an industry standard for quite a while and many professionals have a significant investment in AB batteries. I appreciate that your giving us the opportunity to shake it up by supplying the proper bolt patterns for various power options. Just curious. Sorry if this was covered already, haven't seen it.

And many professionals also use V-lock and PAG (PAG people will have to drill their own holes!).

Guess it depends which "industry" you're talking about. AB are definitely not the only standard :biggrin:

Brent J. Craig

12-14-2007, 05:51 AM

I have genuine AB D-tap connectors and I can easily plug them in backwards on Reds #50 and 51.

This does NOT happen on any of the other gear I have used around the world.

This is a serious problem that Red needs to fix.

(and the monitor I'm powering was $6000 so it is a real concern!)

Greg M

12-14-2007, 10:43 AM

Illya Friedman

12-14-2007, 11:21 AM

i would agree with that.. the AB D-Taps are definitely solid.

Here's some trivia everyone will enjoy.

Dtap is a common misnomer.

Technically, there's actually no such things as a "Dtap" from Anton Bauer. The actual plug is known as an Anton Bauer PowerTap or Ptap for short.

There's a list of AB Accessories here:
http://www.antonbauer.com/productindex.htm

It's kind of like saying "I could care less" which is a famous bit of incorrectness you find said and written every day.

I.

Michael Hastings

12-14-2007, 01:06 PM

Here's some trivia everyone will enjoy.

Dtap is a common misnomer.

Technically, there's actually no such things as a "Dtap" from Anton Bauer. The actual plug is known as an Anton Bauer PowerTap or Ptap for short.

There's a list of AB Accessories here:
http://www.antonbauer.com/productindex.htm

It's kind of like saying "I could care less" which is a famous bit of incorrectness you find said and written every day.

I.

Irregardless, I couldn't care less, but I will be with you momentarily.:wink:

Larry McKee

01-01-2008, 01:22 AM

OK, here is something that just occurred to me. Is it possible to power the camera through the Anton Bauer PowerTap? If so, you could have a battery on an AB plate and run a cable from its PTap to the PTap on the camera's battery plate. That way, you could swap out camera batteries without having to power down.

I would put a meter to the Lemo before trying this little trick. Wouldn't want to suddenly send 24v to the camera. :huh:

EDIT: If this worked it would also allow you to move the weight of the battery away from the camera for jibs, car mounts and such.

RCFisher

01-01-2008, 10:51 AM

I think the only issue would be supplying enough current to the camera through the dtap. The extra battery would be paralleled through the dtap so it wouldn't have a chance at being 24vdc. It's my understanding that the camera needs 75 watts which is about 6.25 amps at 12vdc. Would the wire you use be able to supply that kind of current? 18 gauge can supply that but you would be better off with 16 gauge wire to reduce the line loss. and will the connectors support that current?

Larry McKee

01-01-2008, 10:57 AM

I wasn't sure if the PowerTap was parallel or not. It makes sense that it would be, just didn't know. So thanks for clearing that up.

You may be right about the current, but how big are the wires inside the LEMO cable?

Larry McKee

01-01-2008, 11:02 AM

As long as the connector could handle the current, you could build your own cable with this http://www.enggadgets.com/s.nl/it.A/id.701/.f?sc=7&category=2579

EDIT: The connector should be able to handle the current long enough for a battery switch. The issue would only pop up during long term powering like on a jib or helicopter mount. If indeed it was an issue. Might not be.

The other thing that I don't know is if there is a diode in the battery plate that keeps the current to the PowerTap going in one direction. If that is the case, you wouldn't be able to power the camera through the connector at all.

Anders Holck

01-01-2008, 11:52 AM

I would be EXTREMELY carefull of putting any power INTO the Powertap.
I'd say dont even think about it.

I dont know about the RED v-lock plate, but Anton Bauers genue Gold Mount plates do not contain a diode bride only a Fuze to protect from overloads.

Larry McKee

01-01-2008, 12:14 PM

No kidding about being careful. Wouldn't want to toast my camera just to save a 60 second power up. But, if you made a pig tail that stayed on the plate that had a 4 pin XLR on the other end, you would greatly reduce the chance of swapping polarity. Assuming, of course, the pig tail was wired properly and throughly tested before installation. Then, you could power from any industry standard 12v supply, be it another battery or a power supply. Assuming, again, the PowerTap connector can handle the current.

Anders Holck

01-01-2008, 12:19 PM

Also NEVER parallel two batteries of different chemistry and/or Voltage!

It's common in the Steadicam business to use a use a NiCD battery to voltage boost to 24V but the booster battery is ALWAYS attached in SERIES to the Li-Ion battery NEVER in parallel!

Larry McKee

01-01-2008, 12:26 PM

OK, this little PowerTap exercise may be just too risky to play with. Oh, well, it would have been a quick solution to a couple of problems.

Thanks for the input.

Wes Printz

01-01-2008, 01:10 PM

From what I have read the camera is not protected from reverse polarity,

Have you read the manual? Operations Guide Build 12 v1.8.6, Page 56
D.C POWER INPUT: The power input is protected against reverse-polarity connection, ESD, under voltage and over current.

Anders Holck

01-01-2008, 01:24 PM

Ok sorry, missed that. I have edited the original post.
I would still not recommend using the Power tap for power input.

Michael Morlan

01-01-2008, 04:20 PM

The B4B GT-TS v-mount hot-swap adapter solves all your v-lock battery hot-swap needs:

http://tinyurl.com/33ncby

M

Jarred Land

01-01-2008, 04:23 PM

you gotta be careful with double adapters to make sure they do not over amp the camera.

Evin Grant

01-01-2008, 04:35 PM

I've been able to run the camera, an AJA Downconverter and a Preston FIZ all off the Red battery while on a Steadicam, there was no Red LCD but I think that amount of draw is acceptable, no?

Larry McKee

01-01-2008, 04:48 PM

There is also this one http://tinyurl.com/2rhnpv

Guess we will have to wait until RED starts shipping longer cables before we can move the battery away from the camera.

Wes Printz

01-01-2008, 04:53 PM

I've been able to run the camera, an AJA Downconverter and a Preston FIZ all off the Red battery while on a Steadicam, there was no Red LCD but I think that amount of draw is acceptable, no?

YES, it would be acceptable. The RED Power Tap port is rated at 70 or 75W, (Trying to recall the sticker). One DM2 Motor at Stall, the MDR2 draws close to 1A, Idle less than 300ma. the AJA less than 1/2A. You'll be safe.

You can run the AJA from the AUX port as well.

Michael Morlan

01-01-2008, 04:57 PM

you gotta be careful with double adapters to make sure they do not over amp the camera.

If my electrical theory serves me correctly, you can't over-amp a load. The load will draw what current it will based on its resistance on a circuit. As an example, if I connect a 100watt bulb to a 20amp circuit and 60amp circuit, it is not affected by the difference in available amperage.

Perhaps there is some other factor like camera protection circuits that I am not aware of...

I can't remember; What is the deliverable amps and amp-hour rating of the RED batts?

Jarred Land

01-01-2008, 05:46 PM

There is also this one http://tinyurl.com/2rhnpv

Guess we will have to wait until RED starts shipping longer cables before we can move the battery away from the camera.

we sell a battery clip with a 6 foot lead... you want longer?

Jarred Land

01-01-2008, 05:51 PM

If my electrical theory serves me correctly, you can't over-amp a load. The load will draw what current it will based on its resistance on a circuit. As an example, if I connect a 100watt bulb to a 20amp circuit and 60amp circuit, it is not affected by the difference in available amperage.

Perhaps there is some other factor like camera protection circuits that I am not aware of...

I can't remember; What is the deliverable amps and amp-hour rating of the RED batts?

thats what i thought too... but we have had people try and make double plates and run into problems.

Larry McKee

01-01-2008, 06:01 PM

we sell a battery clip with a 6 foot lead... you want longer?

I saw them in the Store, but I didn't think they were available yet. Good to hear I was wrong.

Evin Grant

01-01-2008, 08:14 PM

I just received one and a Quick Plate, which is THE way to go for CF recording.

Rich Schaefer

01-01-2008, 09:20 PM

AB makes a hot swap plate. Here is my rig:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r224/richcam1/IMG_1010.png

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r224/richcam1/IMG_1011.png

Dual batts are a good idea, my #115 takes 95 seconds to boot-up. It will be a very long 95sec. when I unexpectedly (no battery communication) [lose] power during a take and have to change batteries and reboot with talent is on set and 35 people are staring at me. I am already working on my song & dance.

Now if we can get the battery data from the AB batteries to talk to RED we will be styling! Dose anyone know if the data is universal?