How did Claudio Miranda's test go? [Archive]

claudio

12-10-2007, 09:50 PM

Rick Darge

12-10-2007, 09:56 PM

Thanks Claudio

The debayer wasn't good overall? Or it wasn't good for that particular shot? Did it improve once and if you were able to fix the problem?

Looking forward to the results

Álex Montoya

12-10-2007, 11:44 PM

Thanks a lot, Claudio.

BASSAM MSSALATIE

12-11-2007, 02:52 AM

On the first test on the F23 vs RED, we had an issue with the RED camera.

I Next day I saw them both projected side by side... I was not fully happy with the RED footage
(We discovered the debayer was not as good as it could have been. I will view this retransfered footage on Wednesday. I will post the results and more details on my site.

.

please we do not need some bad ideas or bad describing for RED without a proof .it is not okay for anyone here to tell bad about product without proof
Claudio :gun: if you are so busy man to do your test or to complete it then
don't Declare :tongue: bad things without completation we are here all of us
on the Line :nuke: and ,,for me i will not accept anyone thoughts without a proof ..:bye2: damn..

BASSAM MSSALATIE

12-11-2007, 02:53 AM

don't Let me show my ugly face..:holloween:

Mark L. Pederson

12-11-2007, 03:23 AM

I was not fully happy with the RED footage (mainly because I did not believe it showed its potential). We discovered the debayer was not as good as it could have been. I will view this retransfered footage on Wednesday. I will post the results and more details on my site.

I have been working on other projects and trying to finish this tests. It may take me a little time to post.
Claudio-

I am only curious here, who and how are you "processing" your REDCODE media? Are you working directly from the raw files in Scratch?

I am very curious to hear all of your observations as I have been offered an F23 for some testing during the first week of January at the request of a third party.

jaadgy akanni

12-11-2007, 05:51 AM

Claudio-

I am only curious here, who and how are you "processing" your REDCODE media? Are you working directly from the raw files in Scratch?

I am very curious to hear all of your observations as I have been offered an F23 for some testing during the first week of January at the request of a third party.

Mark, for the benefit of this forum, please accept the F23 for some testing. It will be highly appreciated. Thank you.

Ben Feuer

12-11-2007, 06:54 AM

Well, I suppose it would be interesting to see. But really, an F23 is a little out of my price range so it's not competitive even if it does look a little better.

Mark L. Pederson

12-11-2007, 07:23 AM

Mark, for the benefit of this forum, please accept the F23 for some testing. It will be highly appreciated. Thank you.

I will because I like to learn. I have no interest (or budget) to buy an F23. But it's always fun to play and learn!!

Jim McKinney

12-11-2007, 07:35 AM

please we do not need some bad ideas or bad describing for RED without a proof .it is not okay for anyone here to tell bad about product without proof
Claudio :gun: if you are so busy man to do your test or to complete it then
don't Declare :tongue: bad things without completation we are here all of us
on the Line :nuke: and ,,for me i will not accept anyone thoughts without a proof ..:bye2: damn..

Bassam, please. Claudio is a gentleman and a scholar. I don't think his comments were derogatory, and they certainly were qualified. When he has adequately tested this, I am sure he will politely and even-handedly share his views.

Keep in mind that the Red is not all things to all people. It's amazing and exciting, but it does indeed have its limitations. We should welcome someone of Claudio's calibre and position, who is willing to provide his dispassionate insights.

Jendra

12-11-2007, 08:23 AM

please we do not need some bad ideas or bad describing for RED without a proof .it is not okay for anyone here to tell bad about product without proof
Claudio :gun: if you are so busy man to do your test or to complete it then
don't Declare :tongue: bad things without completation we are here all of us
on the Line :nuke: and ,,for me i will not accept anyone thoughts without a proof ..:bye2: damn..

People are asking for Claudio's OPINION, and he is giving it. Maybe YOU don't want to hear it, but lots of us DO! Claudio's opinion is a lot more qualified than 99% of the people on this board and we can all learn a lot from him, so let's welcome him and not scare him away!

Of course you don't need to accept anyone's thoughts without proof, but it's not okay to say that it's not okay for someone to post their impressions of working with RED. We need independent and experienced thoughts such as his to know what this camera actually is and isn't instead of what we want it to be.

Posts such as yours are the reason why many professionals shy away from this community.

Tim Lüdin

12-11-2007, 08:36 AM

Yeah people

dont push Claudio away from this forum. He's one of the best DPs out there. And I love his work. He has a very healthy distance to the whole RED Thing unlike most of the people here. So we and RED better listen to what a top pro of his caliber has to say.
Dont shoot the messenger.

I also would like to see David Mullen getting a RED for a few days for testing. Unfortunately David got sick during LART and couldn't finish the testing.

So please be nice to those DPs they are not here to bash RED in the first place. I think they have better things to do.

Tim

Álex Montoya

12-11-2007, 09:00 AM

Yeah. It's pretty exciting to have Claudio here with us.

Corrado Silveri

12-11-2007, 09:49 AM

Yes, let's wait some other word from Claudio.

I think that his word was respectful and right.

Corrado

Casey Green

12-11-2007, 10:56 AM

Claudio, we look forward to hearing more from you.

Rick Darge

12-11-2007, 11:58 AM

Everyone, Stop turning this thread into a thread about Bassam.. Just move on or ignore those that bother you. I'm sure Claudio can do the same..

Oh well..

BASSAM MSSALATIE

12-11-2007, 02:58 PM

Bassam, please. Claudio is a gentleman and a scholar. I don't think his comments were derogatory.
i do respect him

People are asking for Claudio's OPINION, and he is giving it.

Of course you don't need to accept anyone's thoughts without proof,.
sorry but look what he said

On the first test on the F23 vs RED, we had an issue with the RED camera. This test was a wash.

... I was not fully happy with the RED footage (mainly because I did not believe it showed its potential). We discovered the debayer was not as good as it could have been. .

he did not mention any positiv thing about Red .

Yeah people

dont push Claudio away from this forum.
So please be nice to those DPs they are not here to bash RED in the first place. I think they have better things to do.

Tim

Everyone, Stop turning this thread into a thread about Bassam.. Just move on or ignore those that bother you. I'm sure Claudio can do the same..

Oh well..

Look Guy's i do really respect Claudio and his experience and every one ealse
but what is bothering me is i do not want to hear bad things about red without fast evidence for it .. i don't want to take impression or any visitor
checking this site or doing some search in the interenet titled(RED , Claudio)
AND find that this very big name talking about red and its sensor like that.
anybody would believe him ..without thinking .:sad:

Ruairi Robinson

12-11-2007, 03:14 PM

i do respect him

he did not mention any positiv thing about Red .

Would you rather him be positive, or honest?

You don't even have a camera yet, so why would it upset you if he isn't raving from the hills that he has found salvation in red...

Tim Lüdin

12-11-2007, 03:24 PM

Sorry Bassam, I didn't wanted to bash you either.
I know exactly what you mean. I also fear about bad press concerning red.
If to much bullshit comes up about red, it will hurt all REDusers and producers will stay away from RED. We won't be able to rent out our REDs and everybody will stay away from it. That's the worst case scenario.

But still, RED is beta. In the next months the RED team will tune the baby till it fully sings. Guys like Claudio, Mark, David etc. will be able to help us and the RED team to improve the cam by I great deal. Even if it will take another 6 months till the cam is fully ready from then on people will only talk good about the RED cam and all the naisayers will shut up. This is the final goal.

So dont be afraid about some honest posts here. Things will turn out good in the end, we all hope that.

Cheers
Tim

BASSAM MSSALATIE

12-11-2007, 03:27 PM

Would you rather him be positive, or honest?

You don't even have a camera yet...

yes I think you hit the nail on the head
Because i do not have camera yet that's why i am upset becuase this is not
serve me or serve any other one thinking to buy red. and hear negative ideas about it.
it is suppose for anyone has very good observations and found something is
not good to say the whole story and not saying it with Episods.
see you next week :bye2: to be continued :alien:

BASSAM MSSALATIE

12-11-2007, 03:29 PM

Sorry Bassam, I didn't wanted to bash you either.
I know exactly what you mean. I also fear about bad press concerning red.
If to much bullshit comes up about red, it will hurt all REDusers and producers will stay away from RED. We won't be able to rent out our REDs and everybody will stay away from it. That's the worst case scenario.

But still, RED is beta. In the next month the RED team will tune the baby till it fully sings. Guys like Claudio, Mark, David etc. will be able to help us and the RED team to improve the cam by I great deal. Even if it will take another 6 month till the cam is fully ready from then on people will only talk good about the RED cam and all the naisayers will shut up. This is the final goal.

So dont be afraid about some honest posts here. Things will turn out good in the end, we all hope that.

Cheers
Tim

very good disscussion . i like it :tongue: thanks

Finner

12-11-2007, 04:03 PM

On the first test on the F23 vs RED, we had an issue with the RED camera. This test was a wash.

iLook Guy's i do really respect Claudio and his experience and every one ealse
but what is bothering me is i do not want to hear bad things about red without fast evidence for it.

Bassam

You need to read the posts more carefully. Sounds like the first camera Claudio got worked so poorly that none of the tests even worked forcing him to do the test all over again a second time!

Frankly what I read Claudio seems very kind with his words considering that it looks like a whole day of his time was wasted due to to a problem with the camera.

Chris Pickle

12-11-2007, 04:08 PM

If people on this site (as they often do) continue to take offense when an undisputed industry pro has something to say about the Red that could be viewed as less than cheerleading, then this site will become irrelevant.

Can you imagine any other camera forum chasing away a top notch DP that works with one of the most important Directors in the entire business. It would be an embarrassment.

Chris

David Mullen ASC

12-11-2007, 04:11 PM

Don't be afraid of honest, objective observation that finds fault -- you can't cover that stuff up anyway, the truth always comes out. Better to face up to it and deal with it. At least you'll be able to advise producers more realistically about the pros and cons, which all formats have. You'll sound more believable to them anyway if you can list some "negative" aspects because then it will sound like you did some thorough research. If you try to gloss over any these potentional pitfalls, it could bite you on the ass later.

Cüneyt Kaya

12-11-2007, 04:12 PM

there are just 100 cameras, what kind of issue let the 1st test fail, would be interesting to know in detail.

btw.
if the technic maniac d.fincher trusts claudio skills, i think i will do the same and listen carefully what claudio will say.

Jon Atack

12-11-2007, 04:23 PM

Thanks Claudio, looking forward to more impressions if & when you can.

Cheers.

Rudi Herbert

12-11-2007, 04:58 PM

On the first test on the F23 vs RED, we had an issue with the RED camera. This test was a wash.

I went out again (a week later) with a different camera. Next day I saw them both projected side by side... I was not fully happy with the RED footage (mainly because I did not believe it showed its potential). We discovered the debayer was not as good as it could have been. I will view this retransfered footage on Wednesday. I will post the results and more details on my site.

Yes indeed, thanks a LOT Claudio for taking the time to give us your EXTREMELY qualified impression about RED, helping us make more educated decisions regarding our future use for this system.

Now, it sounds like Claudio had TWO different problems with the RED, the first time due to an undisclosed problem the test was of no use whatsoever, and the second time where the debayering left something to be desired and he will do yet another pass with that same footage. That shows objectivity and dedication, and I for one, will take Claudio's findings VERY much into consideration.

Gracias Claudio!

David Mullen ASC

12-11-2007, 05:01 PM

Of course, if the RED cameras keep on being improved... we're all going to have to retest them again next spring anyway...

Rudi Herbert

12-11-2007, 05:51 PM

David,

Thinking out loud here, would you be willing to test a RED if we managed to get a camera in your hands? Run a battery of tests based on whatever you ordinarily do with any camera you're not familiar with and on the minor problems the RED's been showing of which you're well aware, given the fact you've followed this forum for a long time now and you actively participate on the discussion of all technical matters pertaining the camera and cinematography in general. Would this be of interest to you, to run "David Mullen's RED test" and post the results for us here on Redforum?

David Mullen ASC

12-11-2007, 06:07 PM

I may be over-committed these days, during my "down time" ironically. I'm finishing a chapter for the ASC Manual that I have to deliver. I may be working on a digital glossary of terms for the ASC website. I finally created a website this week at the bequest of my agent, and now I've promised her I will spend the month updating my ancient reel. A friend wants me to storyboard a feature over the next two months.

And all of this gets superceded by any real shooting work that may come along...

BTW, my new website is:
http://www.davidmullenasc.com

However, I would be willing to collaborate with someone more anal-retentive than myself in terms of testing -- it may be a welcome break from my other projects! It may be better to wait until the next batch of RED cameras start being delivered...

Keith Alan Morris

12-11-2007, 09:06 PM

cool, i will check it out david.

Shawn Nelson

12-11-2007, 09:54 PM

Posts such as yours are the reason why many professionals shy away from this community.

That's kind of harsh, do 'professionals' really stay away from RedUser because of a few hasty posters?

BASSAM MSSALATIE

12-11-2007, 11:18 PM

Sorry for the delay. And also sorry for the lack of details, but it needs to be this way until I finish. I really want to get to the meat before I say anything public at this time.

On the first test on the F23 vs RED, we had an issue with the RED camera. This test was a wash.

I went out again (a week later) with a different camera. Next day I saw them both projected side by side... I was not fully happy with the RED footage (mainly because I did not believe it showed its potential). We discovered the debayer was not as good as it could have been. I will view this retransfered footage on Wednesday. I will post the results and more details on my site.

I have been working on other projects and trying to finish this tests. It may take me a little time to post.

Dear claudio : :help: please do not upset from me or my discussion here i am like all
others here waiting for your test results , it is missunderstanding about(not finished test ) i want you see your results as soon as you can maybe it will and it will help us here exploring hidden things no one will discove unless with good experience like you but please make it full test.. thanks :whistling:

jaadgy akanni

12-11-2007, 11:23 PM

Dear claudio : :help: please do not upset from me or my discussion here i am like all
others here waiting for your test results , it is missunderstanding about(not finished test ) i want you see your results as soon as you can maybe it will and it will help us here exploring hidden things no one will discove unless with good experience like you but please make it full test.. thanks :whistling:

An exhaustive test is what I expect from Claudio, and judging from what he's stated here, that's what he's aiming for. His might be the best findings we'll have the privilege to share so far.

I Bloom

12-11-2007, 11:33 PM

Claudio, glad you are taking your time with your tests. Your efforts are much appreciated. I have been looking forward to hearing more from you.

IBloom

Álex Montoya

12-11-2007, 11:52 PM

BTW, David, I saw The Astronaut Farmer three days ago. Amazing work. You think there's any chance that you'll upload bigger frame grabs in your site?

David Mullen ASC

12-12-2007, 12:11 AM

A DVD frame grab can't be bigger than 720 pixels across. My website has a limit of 640 pxiels across, and of course, bigger photos will take up more page space.

I reduced the photos to be about 60% of the original size.

Sanjin Jukic

12-12-2007, 02:24 AM

BTW, my new website is:
http://www.davidmullenasc.com

Congratulations David,

very good website and also a nice DP work.

Jendra

12-12-2007, 09:22 AM

Posts such as yours are the reason why many professionals shy away from this community.That's kind of harsh, do 'professionals' really stay away from RedUser because of a few hasty posters?

Yes, indeed a great many do. I converse with many top level industry pros on a regular basis who won't go near this forum.

Yes, it's harsh but I regularly hear in verbal conversation:
"just a bunch of fan-boys"
"wanna-bes"
"horrible signal to noise ratio" (the forums not the camera)
"waste of time"
"I don't want to say anything on there and get attacked by the wolves"
etc. etc.

Of course, I don't agree, because I am here and I think there is lots of valuable information on here. I usually defend the value of the forum to most of these individuals. The reason I don't spend more time here is I do find it overwhelming sometimes to sort through all the nonsense. And by nonsense, I mean the people who post who have nothing to say. Other online communities I belong to have guidelines such as "only post if you have anything tangible to add to the discussion." And I much prefer that than wading through tons of posts that say nothing but "great news!" "looking forward to it!" Thanks, man." etc.

My opinion is that kind of stuff just eats up bandwidth and is better left to private correspondences. But hey, I'm not the moderator, and I'll tolerate it for the sharing of information. But a lot of people I talk to just don't have the patience.

ChrisLyon

12-12-2007, 09:27 AM

A lot of that is true. I think the environment inherits some of the young independent spirit that hails from DVXuser. I try not to allow myself to pass off people who don't know what I know because I'm no expert myself.

I agree that the best deals are made in PMs.

Emmanuel Cambier

12-12-2007, 10:40 AM

Yes, indeed a great many do. I converse with many top level industry pros on a regular basis who won't go near this forum.

Yes, it's harsh but I regularly hear in verbal conversation:
"just a bunch of fan-boys"
"wanna-bes"
"horrible signal to noise ratio" (the forums not the camera)
"waste of time"
"I don't want to say anything on there and get attacked by the wolves"
etc. etc.

Of course, I don't agree, because I am here and I think there is lots of valuable information on here. I usually defend the value of the forum to most of these individuals. The reason I don't spend more time here is I do find it overwhelming sometimes to sort through all the nonsense. And by nonsense, I mean the people who post who have nothing to say. Other online communities I belong to have guidelines such as "only post if you have anything tangible to add to the discussion." And I much prefer that than wading through tons of posts that say nothing but "great news!" "looking forward to it!" Thanks, man." etc.

My opinion is that kind of stuff just eats up bandwidth and is better left to private correspondences. But hey, I'm not the moderator, and I'll tolerate it for the sharing of information. But a lot of people I talk to just don't have the patience.

<humour>
Yeah… great post, keep 'em coming, can't wait, Thanks a lot.
</humour>

It is true that if we could avoid that kind of "mud" everytime someone at Red post something new, it would make working on this boards a lot easier.

LET'S REFRAIN

Emmanuel

Jon Atack

12-12-2007, 12:36 PM

Agreed, Jendra.

I modded for five years on the most popular high end audio forum on the internet (then and now) and we called this phenomenum "dawgging" -- people sniping at and dragging down the pros, effectively driving them away. It was the reason I eventually left and the reason the star mixer who stepped into my shoes left after just two weeks.

Having said that, I do feel that posts by non-mods tending to police or drag down other posts ought to be included in the "nonsense" category.

Back to posting rarely,

Sanjin Jukic

12-12-2007, 01:51 PM

Posts such as yours are the reason why many professionals shy away from this community.

Agreed, Jendra.

I modded for five years on the most popular high end audio forum on the internet (then and now) and we called this phenomenum "dawgging" -- people sniping at and dragging down the pros, effectively driving them away. It was the reason I eventually left and the reason the star mixer who stepped into my shoes left after just two weeks.

Having said that, I do feel that posts by non-mods tending to police or drag down other posts ought to be included in the "nonsense" category.

Back to posting rarely,

I think some people having a huge illusion about RED camera forum(s) in general.

For example at the moment of this writing here we have at the RED user forum the number of active users: 989 (407 members and 582 guests).

Nobody on the Internet and even in a reality could control or even police this amount of visitors (online).

You just have to accept that you are living in a pretty messy world and that's it.

Simply: Take it or leave it.

Or form and launch your own "professional(s)" SUPERIORTY forum about what ever you want to discuss

and go much higher than another (mostly from a crap here) in overall discussions, etc... and then you would finish in a pure pro "Country".

I do not want to mention another metaphoric expression for this desired doing things or wishes because

I live in Austria and I know well what the history of this country was and even more about that abroad.

So what I wanted to say is one big, big wish to leave us from this kind and (or) another similar follower's intentions of that pure supremacy wishes.

And more about supremacy of so called professional world:

it is the most boring world (people) I ever met, saw, heard about, read about, etc.

Simply to say it is about to have a sense of understanding for people.

And RED h a s a huge understanding all the time and proofs that DAILY.

RED = the People's 4K camera.

-----------------

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Avanti popolo a la rescosa
Bandiera rosa, bandiera rosa
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Bandiera rosa la trionfera
Bandiera rosa la trionfera
Bandiera rosa la trionfera
Y viva la Socialiste, la bella liberta

The people’s on the march,
This road they’re treading
It leads to freedom
It leads to freedom
The people’s on the march,
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(Chorus)

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Victory proceeding, towards liberty
We’ll wave the scarlet banner triumphantly
We’ll raise the scarlet banner triumphantly
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Y viva la Socialiste, la bella liberta

German: Steht auf ihr Arbeiter,
steht auf Genossen
Die Rote Fahne werht siegentschlossen
Steht auf ihr Arbeiter, steht auf GenossenDie Rote Fahne erkamft die Macht

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Very appropriately for a song of the masses there isn’t a single explanation or origin but many."

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Jim McKinney

12-12-2007, 02:26 PM

Well despite momentary lapses, CML does pretty well.

the bottom line: WE SHOULD ALL STRIVE TO POLICE OURSELVES A BIT BETTER. (and on that note, I should shut up now and quietly and patiently (!) wait for Claudio Miranda to get back to us . . . )

Rudi Herbert

12-12-2007, 02:45 PM

I assume Caludio Miranda is a very busy person, who probably needs to carefully weight his options in terms of where to spend his "idle" time, and coming to a forum where, for whatever reason, he gets pushed and forced by others that perhaps have a lot more free time than him and, undeniably, a lot less experience about the subject he's discussing (and that means 99% of this forum) must make it without a doubt very frustrating, and intimidating, for him to wade through these turbulent waters. So yes, we should all be a bit more restrained, not in our enthusiasm towards RED, but in how we address other people. And so far, moderators in this forum mostly just move threads from one section to another, but take no stance with some very nonsensical, disrespectful and politically charged threads that are alllowed to drag on forever...

Such as Sanjin right now (whom I GREATLY respect for his passion AND knowledge about photography) entoning Red Flag songs...the very songs to whose tune the police brutally kicked our asses back in Cuba during my youth...very "liberating" of you Sanjin, not to mention "respectful" and knowledgeable of world history...I think I've had enough of this forum for today.

Sanjin Jukic

12-12-2007, 03:48 PM

Rudi,

don't take me wrong.

I am neither communist nor right-wing; I'm just a free thinker.

Tonight I feel like a Fellini's hero TOBY DAMMIT, (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063715/) sit in Ferarri drunk and

like Peter O'Toole (originally casted for that role) drive till I would smash a car and myself in a surreal or virtual crash.

Anyway it is Fellini's excellent short movie.

Looks like an indie film from 60's with a look of Leica still lens optics in colour feature film.

That's a real dream.

Gute Nacht.

P.S.And our Claudio is always welcome to express his thoughts and tests about RED here as we all know well from before.

redrum

12-13-2007, 11:36 AM

Jendra, thanks for saying it.

Shawn Nelson

12-13-2007, 11:11 PM

In all seriousness, how do I avoid being a "waste of time" "fan boy" and "a wannabe"? Does excitement about the camera and the Promethian act that Jim is doing put me into it? Or is it the general hyperbole sometimes exhibited? The wanton inclination towards tangents?

David Mullen ASC

12-13-2007, 11:41 PM

I remember when the F900 came out, a lot of "film is dead" types were complaining that professional cinematographers were luddites, nitpickers, and whatnot because, god forbid, they found flaws in the HDCAM image. There was a constant chorus of "you guys are so picky, you aren't being fair to digital, blah, blah, blah..." Well, seven years later... and most people are more than happy to talk about the flaws of the F900 HDCAM image now that there are better cameras on the market. Oh yeah, and it didn't kill film either as I recall.

So whenever someone tries to silence someone who has legitimate concerns with the RED, I am reminded of 2001 all over again. There is this basic fear some people have of exposing any new digital camera, warts and all, to the light, if they have pinned their filmmaking hopes on the camera. They aren't being emotionally objective -- they have a vested interest in convincing everyone that the technology is flawless and the best available.

Most of us who shoot for a living just want to discover the pros and cons so we can make rational decisions on which technology to match to which job, and how to deal with our choice on the shooting day, and in post. We don't expect perfection... but we do expect reliability and predictability of results. Sure, we want whoever has the best idea to win on principle, but we also want it to really be the best.

And as we are discovering here, products only become the best when all the bugs and flaws are brought to the attention of the designers so that they can make improvements. So anyone who is attempting to suppress legitimate concerns about the RED are not doing RED any favors in the long run.

I think most people here on this site have a healthy attitude towards the RED, cautious enthusiasm mixed with a real attempt to learn and understand how to use it. There are just a few who are constantly being the equivalent of flag-waving patriot that make some of the professionals who avoid single-product-commitment (on principle) feel uncomfortable.

Sanjin Jukic

12-14-2007, 05:04 AM

There are just a few who are constantly being the equivalent of flag-waving patriot that make some of the professionals who avoid single-product-commitment (on principle) feel uncomfortable.

Now we could see a distinction between the technocrats and intellectuals.

Here we have approximately about 1000 users who are constantly online 24 hours/7 days on this forum.

If all the time 100 of them are "hardcore professionals" that is about 1:10 or 10% of all users that are mostly non professionals, amateurs, enthusiasts...etc...The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

How they could talk and discuss.

Mostly all it sounds like a cacophony (by the way I live very close to the Arnold Schönberg Center in Vienna (http://www.schoenberg.at/default_e.htm)).

Some of the so called "professionals" showed here leaning towards a sense of supremacy, superiorty and hard control behavior that could turn the forum in a sort of Orwell's 1984 stage...

It was a reason then I waved a red flag (bandiera rossa) that represents a flag of RED people here.

A smart and liberal intellectuals sometimes have more understanding for a poor and dummy behavior than a hardcore technocrats who are interested in a pure techno values.

That was a reason that I said:

RED = The People's 4K camera.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/redone-flag.jpg

Chris Pickle

12-14-2007, 05:23 AM

OMG. After David's great post.... Then Sanjin uses this iconic image to promote Red. I'm speechless.....

Barend Onneweer

12-14-2007, 08:58 AM

... :sick:

David Mullen ASC

12-14-2007, 10:17 AM

It sends the wrong message though to "fly the RED flag" everytime someone mentions they found a bug in the camera. You don't want to cross the line from freedom to fascism, which is the problem with a lot of revolutions and revolutionaries. No one wants to be freed at the point of a gun.

And saying that people who address technical problems are somehow anti-intellectuals is not particularly fair. That's like saying that a cinematographer who has technical concerns is being less artistic as a result.

Babu Kantamneni

12-14-2007, 10:24 AM

David Mullen ASC

12-14-2007, 10:27 AM

A guy could come here and only post technical questions... but for all you know, he is the most intellectual, artistic guy in the world, maybe even be a radical, an iconoclast. Why make the assumption that people who don't display an artistic side on this forum must not have one?

Sanjin Jukic

12-14-2007, 11:00 AM

Sorry David it was nothing addressed to you personally.

And I have a huge respect for your cinematographer's knowledge, artistic achievement and personal niceness.

It was about a hunting where some techies wanted blame non-techies for overall cacophony of the forum.

As I said it is all the time about 1000 people online and you cannot have a melody of one style.

Here there are all kind of people, the good, the bad and the ugly.

Also I have respect for a work of many cinematographers like Vittorio Soraro, Janus Kaminski, Vilmos Zsigmond,
Tom Stern, Gordon Willis, Laszlo Kovacs, Ernie Holzman, Caleb Deschanel, Allen Daviau, Bill Dill, Hiro Narita,
Haskell Wexler, Dion Beebe, Michael Ballhaus,...just to name a few of them.

And I am subscriber of digital edition of American Cinematographer magazine.

Barend Onneweer

12-14-2007, 12:49 PM

And I am subscriber of digital edition of American Cinematographer magazine.

Oh... why didn't you say so immediately! In that case, it's all good. Keep goin'

:whistling:

Finner

12-14-2007, 01:10 PM

I heard Claudio would be posting results on his website fairly soon.

Sanjin Jukic

12-14-2007, 02:02 PM

Sorry Claudio but we all still waiting for your test report!!!

Rudi Herbert

12-14-2007, 04:01 PM

Hey Sanjin,

While we wait for Claudio to post his results, which I think would be best for him as an impartial oberver to post on his website and just link us to it, let me ask you and the rest something else.

I see in your kit you have an Angeniux 25-250 and a Cooke 10-100 zooms. How do you like those? I know David and many others prefer to work with primes, but one of the very positive things I've gotten from working with the DV and HDV cameras through the years is the ability to use a zoom as a "variable prime" and be able to keep a high level of improvisation and flexibility on set just by quickly exploring different options right then and there in the spur of the moment, before the muse flies away while we change from one prime to the next. I'm almost convinced that I'll go mostly with zooms for most of my RED projects, because I really like the ability to explore many options for framing at the twist of a ring...

I was watching The Bourne Ultimatum DVD last night and saw how they mostly used zooms, including the 25 lbs monster 12 x Angenieux for even the most frantically paced scenes. Besides the obvious style of that film and Paul Greegrass' background in documentaries, I see where using zooms is a great way to keep things rolling... Comments?

David Mullen ASC

12-14-2007, 04:10 PM

People who are used to zooms have a hard time getting used to primes, and vice-versa to some extent. There are legitimate reasons for using zooms, of course.

I do find, though, that you really learn the subtle effects of focal lengths by choosing primes throughout a feature shoot, so that you can guess whether you want to use a 50mm instead of a 75mm, for example. It leads to a sort of precision in framing and composition (that mathematical precision you sense when watching an Ozu movie, all shot on a 50mm, or something Gordon Willis shot like "The Godfather") whereas a zoom leads to a sort of looseness and vagueness about the choice of focal length. It's just a different style of working and creates a different look to the movie ultimately. Sure, it wouldn't make much sense to use only primes if you are after a "Bourne Supremacy" sort of feeling, let alone it wouldn't make much sense practically.

But don't knock shooting on primes until you've tried it. It's great to really get to know a single lens and all of its personality and how it affects the scene.

Sanjin Jukic

12-15-2007, 01:49 AM

Hey Rudi,

I have an old Cooke 25-250mm Cine Varotal PL mount, Arriflex/Zeiss 10-100mm with PL adapter (S16 mm), Arriflex/Zeiss 85mm T 2 with PL adapter.

The lenses are old and not in a perfect condition like a new one but in quite fine to play, do testing and to work carefully.

As David wrote it's up to the cinematographer's and director's aesthetic concept and to your experience and knowledge about each single lens you have, you were working with, etc.

Start to think about your experience with using still photo lenses.

I do have about 20-25 still photo lenses and exactly know the good and bad sides of each lens.

Also everyday learning and making notes.

Advantage to have RED and couple of PL lenses (old zoom and primes) privately owned (still waiting for my RED#694) is that you could daily test and learn about working with optics for moving pictures.

Zooms vs. primes is one of the famous photographer's/cinematographer's topic that have endless discussions.

Rudi Herbert

12-15-2007, 07:37 AM

Sanjin, David,

I agree that zooms vs.primes are one of those endless topics in photography. I like both very much. I guess when I first started taking photos I had only money left for a couple of zooms and went with them, and from there on amassed my experience with zooms mostly. But I learned to use them more like primes really, learned the feel and behavior of each of them in set scales, in "ranges" or "increments". Like I look at a scene and think: this will look well in the "low 20's" (anything from 21 mm to 25 mm), "high 30's", 50's, 70's, etc, etc. If I want a look in the low 20's, then I can compose from right then and there, whereas if I have a 24mm prime on the camera, I may have to move around until the image in the viewfinder is exactly what I want. But of course, I only use primes for wide angle, macro and portrait, so for me the primes are more the specialized tools instead of the zooms...

And getting back to this thread, I read that Claudio tested one the "old" cameras, the ones that exhibit some significant problems that seem to be now eliminated. That's a shame...But, let's hope to have his results soon. As somebody who's shot so much with the Viper and newer Sony, I can't wait to hear from him.

Emmanuel Cambier

12-15-2007, 07:59 AM

And what about a zoom like COOKE's S4/i 15-40 T2, it makes choosing between this and the equivalent S4 T2 primes (16-18-21-25-27-32-35-40) a lot harder I think.
I would like to know what you guys would pick up to rent if budget was not a problem, this zoom or the primes.
Actually I plan to by the COOKE Red Set, that's why i am asking.

Thanks

Emmanuel

Jendra

12-15-2007, 03:36 PM

And getting back to this thread, I read that Claudio tested one the "old" cameras, the ones that exhibit some significant problems that seem to be now eliminated. That's a shame...But, let's hope to have his results soon. As somebody who's shot so much with the Viper and newer Sony, I can't wait to hear from him.

I spoke with Claudio several times this week. When he re-did the test, he had a brand new camera directly from RED.

Adrian T.

12-15-2007, 05:42 PM

I spoke with Claudio several times this week. When he re-did the test, he had a brand new camera directly from RED.

I think it was an old camera though. Even the leader of the rebellion said so:

Claudio just tested an old camera.

The new cameras are not released yet. They're still working on them.

Jendra

12-15-2007, 09:43 PM

I think it was an old camera though. Even the leader of the rebellion said so:

The new cameras are not released yet. They're still working on them.

Aha. I guess it seems it was the newest available at the time. More than a week ago. Things sure do change fast around here!

Jannard

12-16-2007, 12:52 AM

I spoke with Claudio several times this week. When he re-did the test, he had a brand new camera directly from RED.

Claudio did not have a "new" camera as defined as the ones that we will ship later this month. It did not have the new sensor settings, the new DSP, the new cold fix, and it had one of the early prototypes of the new mount (I think). We have offered Claudio to test the "new" camera as soon as they are finished. But he did test an "old" camera.

Jim

Stephen Williams

12-16-2007, 02:20 AM

claudio

12-19-2007, 11:58 AM

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/redvsf23/redvsf23.html

Michael Lindsay

12-19-2007, 12:09 PM

Thank you for posting...

Michael Lindsay

PS How did you feel about not having a near identical angle of view?

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 12:18 PM

Thanks Claudio.

Very good test report and pictures.

The PROs are exactly what is a reason that me and a couple of thousand of us choosed RED.

CONs can be reduced as soon as possible.

It is about development and a flux.

And Jim said that you had an "old" camera anyway!

Looking forward to read with the same pleasure your next RED test too.

Tony Lorentzen

12-19-2007, 12:18 PM

Thanks for sharing, Claudio. Very interesting results... I thought RED had the rolling shutter issues fixed...

steve palazzese

12-19-2007, 12:19 PM

Thank you claudio, now i've got something interesting to read...

I Bloom

12-19-2007, 12:37 PM

Thanks Claudio.
Great tests, very enlightening.

Can you give more details about how the cameras were rated and how you exported your Red footage.

Ian

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 12:58 PM

Amazing to see the difference between the two cameras when it comes to flares. The Red's handling of them is down-right ugly... I know that Red's logo is a red dot... but this is ridiculous. I am glad this was fixed (it was, right?)

RED:
http://www.claudiomiranda.com/redvsf23/images/A004_C005_071206_0256.jpg

F23:
http://www.claudiomiranda.com/redvsf23/images/reel_001_Angeles_Crest_take_005_camA_0088567.jpg

Joe Vinson

12-19-2007, 01:02 PM

"16 gig cards are now available and the hard drives are ready"

:shifty:

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 01:06 PM

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 01:06 PM

Amazing to see the difference between the two cameras when it comes to flares. The Red's handling of them is down-right ugly... I know that Red's logo is a red dot... but this is ridiculous. I am glad this was fixed (it was, right?)

It was fixed long ago.

Please, in the future try to get a right info about RED just IN TIME.

CLAUDIO:"4K does not appear to be 4K. Sometimes appearing softer than the 2K F23."
CLAUDIO: Red has "Less dynamic range" then F23.

Uhm... Maybe I should stick with Kodak Vision 3 until Red has a chance to catch up.

You are free to do what ever you want.

I will stick with RED.

I Bloom

12-19-2007, 01:08 PM

Amazing to see the difference between the two cameras when it comes to flares. The Red's handling of them is down-right ugly... I know that Red's logo is a red dot... but this is ridiculous. I am glad this was fixed (it was, right?)

This issue was first apparent in the footage that Rocket posted from New Zealand a couple of month ago. Apparently by moving the IR/LP filter forward a few milimeters, the flare issue has improved in the new bodies. I'd love to see a test.

I think the most interesting thing about Cluadio's test is the difference in dynamic range. It's very visible in the tunnel shots. Since one trades highlight crushing for noise depending on how the image is rated. I'm wondering about these details. The F23 is a 14bit ADC. I'm wondering if you get all that data when you are recording.

IBloom

Jannard

12-19-2007, 01:10 PM

CLAUDIO:"4K does not appear to be 4K. Sometimes appearing softer than the 2K F23."
CLAUDIO: Red has "Less dynamic range" then F23.

Uhm... Maybe I should stick with Kodak Vision 3 until Red has a chance to catch up.

Maybe you should post the whole sentence...?

• 4K does not appear to be 4K. Sometimes appearing softer than the 2K F23. Possibly due to the camera I received that may of had a poorly collimated PL mount. The demo footage they sent looked sharper than my footage, so this may be the case. But then again I am judging the camera at hand.

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.

Shooting film is always an option...

Jim

Joe Vinson

12-19-2007, 01:10 PM

The RED stills do look a bit more "video-ish." I'm not sure it's something I would have seen without the side-by-side comparison, and there's a lot you could do with color correction of course, but it's more noticeable than I would have guessed.

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.

Great to hear, Jim!

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 01:13 PM

Stephen Williams

12-19-2007, 01:14 PM

Maybe you should post the whole sentence...?

• 4K does not appear to be 4K. Sometimes appearing softer than the 2K F23. Possibly due to the camera I received that may of had a poorly collimated PL mount. The demo footage they sent looked sharper than my footage, so this may be the case. But then again I am judging the camera at hand.

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.

Shooting film is always an option...

Jim

Hi Jim,

So the second camera Claudio received with a prototype new lens mount may have had FFD issues, or did I miss something.

Stephen

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 01:16 PM

I was fixed long ago.

Please, in the future try to get a right info about RED just IN TIME.

You are free to do what ever you want.

I will stick with RED.

I am just reacting to a test that a very respected DP just posted like 5 minutes ago. The Red does show some short comings. I still love the Red project. But I would also like to be objective when it comes to real abilities to each Camera System.

The most interesting thing to me right now is the dynamic range of each camera format, because this will directly impact my lighting budget since we will have a lot of night scenes. Please don't hate me for what Claudio has posted. It's HIS findings, not mine.

P.S. Claudio, thanks a million for the Test. It helps people like me on the brink of production to make better informed decisions.

Finner

12-19-2007, 01:20 PM

Amazing to see the difference between the two cameras when it comes to flares. The Red's handling of them is down-right ugly... I know that Red's logo is a red dot... but this is ridiculous. I am glad this was fixed (it was, right?)

It was fixed long ago.

Please, in the future try to get a right info about RED just IN TIME.

If it was fixed that long ago why did red send out cameras that it had not been fixed with. Red knew it was a head to head test why not send out your best cameras?

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 01:22 PM

Maybe you should post the whole sentence...?

Jim

Jim, you are right. I should have posted the whole of it. I assumed everyone here is or will be reading all of Claudio's test. I was simply making a reference to that area to the test.

In the end I am just going by the images. And so far they speak louder than any words and that is what will stick in people's minds. I am someone who is desperately trying to consider between Red, Another HD format, or Super 16mm for an upcoming feature. The problem I see so far is that the Red is still not completely finished and I have to make a decision soon. I am still leaning towards Red at this point. I am on your side, but I am still trying to be objective about this whole thing.

Jannard

12-19-2007, 01:25 PM

If it was fixed that long ago why did red send out cameras that it had not been fixed with. Red knew it was a head to head test why not send out your best cameras?

Good question... we made an error. Pretty simple. We are camera and manpower short and grabbed a camera that didn't have the fix. The fact that the mount was out (even though it was a prototype) is inexcusable. We have apologized to Claudio and he has been gracious enough to offer to retest a new camera as soon as we can get one there.

Keeping track of which cameras had which upgrades was one of the reasons we decided to just replace all cameras 1-100.

We are not perfect... this is a good example.

Claudio did everything right. We didn't.

Jim

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 01:26 PM

For all of you with RED vs. F23 I would suggest to blow up F23 image to 4K and then to compare with RED.

Then we could talk about dynamic range, etc...

Here the size matters.

Just do it first in Photoshop.

I thought dynamic range was independent of resolution. So what would all this accomplish?

Jarred Land

12-19-2007, 01:28 PM

Claudio did not have a "new" camera as defined as the ones that we will ship later this month. It did not have the new sensor settings, the new DSP, the new cold fix, and it had one of the early prototypes of the new mount (I think). We have offered Claudio to test the "new" camera as soon as they are finished. But he did test an "old" camera.

Jim

Jim is correct.. Claudio used the first prototype of the new mount on an old camera.. it wasn't even anodized so the internals where all silver. It also did not include the new low pass filter, which will help tremendously on multiple issues addressed.

Claudio was wonderful and very patient and understanding along the entire ride across multiple tests, and we look forward to working closely with him and his team when the new cameras roll out.

Evin Grant

12-19-2007, 01:29 PM

I think he's talking about the updated cameras having the new "Fix" that's supposed to add DR and reduce some noise.

I Bloom

12-19-2007, 01:30 PM

We had also acknowledged that the F23 had slightly better dynamic range than the original RED ONEs. That's why we went to work to improve it... which shows up in the new cameras released this month.

Shooting film is always an option...

Jim

I'm thinking that some of the difference might be in the post workflow. Or in how the test was exposed. That's what I'm trying to learn.

Graeme said at some point that more bits wouldn't be helpful since they would be lost in the noise floor. I'm still trying to understand his reasoning.

I hope we aren't entering a part of this thread where honest technical inquiry is confused with unfounded criticism. We need to ask these questions, so that we know how to use these tools.

Ian

Jannard

12-19-2007, 01:32 PM

I'm thinking that some of the difference might be in the post workflow. Or in how the test was exposed. That's what I'm trying to learn.

Graeme said at some point that more bits wouldn't be helpful since they would be lost in the noise floor. I'm still trying to understand his reasoning.

I hope we aren't entering a part of this thread where honest technical inquiry is confused with unfounded criticism.

Ian

I am OK that our $17,500 camera, with known issues that are now addressed, competes favorably with a $250K camera. I am keen to see the same test with our new cameras.

Jim

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 01:35 PM

I hope we aren't entering a part of this thread where honest technical inquiry is confused with unfounded criticism.

Ian

I hope not. I view this as a very good opportunity to learn what all the issues are so I can communicate better with the DP's that I work with. I know Red & Company in the end will embrace all objective criticism and better their camera.

Finner

12-19-2007, 01:36 PM

Hi Jim,

So the second camera Claudio received with a prototype new lens mount may have had FFD issues, or did I miss something.

Stephen

I have not seen or heard of one red camera that the FFD was correctly collimated from factory. In fact I have heard of a lot of focus pullers getting burned because of it. Thank goodness there is a new mount, I look forward to it having a lot higher QC then the previous ones.

BTW I have not heard of the red dot flare problem being fixed.

All this said a complete red package is close to only 10% of the cost of a f23. In my books it did very well but I do not expect it to be able to outperform a f23, f35, genesis or viper. If it comes close to even contending in the same group with any of these cameras red has done very well. Look at the price difference all of these others start at the $100,000 range for a complete camera without lenses. You get what you pay for and what we are getting for $17,500 is very good.

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 01:38 PM

I thought dynamic range was independent of resolution. So what would all this accomplish?

I don't know exactly but...

Try to shoot SD 4:4:4 and then blow up to 2K or 4K.

Or do a simple test with DSLR.

Shoot resolution about HD size and then blow up to 4K.

Just have a look.

And that's about shooting with RED in 4K.

Find here at REDUSER forum the posts by Graeme Nattress and he described all that very nice as a main RED scientist.

Finner

12-19-2007, 01:41 PM

I think he's talking about the updated cameras having the new "Fix" that's supposed to add DR and reduce some noise.

Yep thats what I was talking about.

Karl H

12-19-2007, 01:43 PM

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 01:43 PM

BTW I have not heard of the red dot flare problem being fixed.

Really? This is interesting. I thought somebody else just said that it was fixed. Sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when you get conflicting information. So that is why I turn to people like Claudio who's reputations I know and see what they have to say.

Look at the price difference all of these others start at the $100,000 range for a complete camera without lenses. You get what you pay for and what we are getting for $17,500 is very good.

This is very refreshing to hear. Kinda brings this whole thing down to earth a bit. Thanks.

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 01:53 PM

I don't know exactly but...

Try to shoot SD 4:4:4 and then blow up to 2K or 4K.
Or do a simple test with DSLR.
Shoot resolution about HD size and then blow up to 4K.
Just a have a look.
And that's about shooting with RED in 4K.

I hear you, but I have long ago learned that resolution is actually not that important when it comes to the 'perceived awsomness' of an image. But dynamic range IS. I don't know the exact reasons for all this, but this is why I am obsessing over dynamic range and image senzor size (for focal length reasons and not resolution) instead of resolution.

Jannard

12-19-2007, 01:56 PM

I hear you, but I have long ago learned that resolution is actually not that important when it comes to the 'perceived awsomness' of an image. But dynamic range IS. I don't know the exact reasons for all this, but this is why I am obsessing over dynamic range and image senzor size (for focal length reasons and not resolution) instead of resolution.

The question you need to ask is "how much difference was there in dynamic range between the F23 and Original RED ONE". Then, a month from now, you can re-ask the same question.

Jim

Finner

12-19-2007, 01:57 PM

'perceived awsomness'

Now you are getting all high on your horse with your big lingo.

Jannard

12-19-2007, 02:01 PM

I have not seen or heard of one red camera that the FFD was correctly collimated from factory.

Take the number of problems you have heard about, subtract that from 125 (including named cameras) and you will have your answer. About 20 have had collimation issues that we know of. Most of those were just not set up properly. That means 105 have had no issues. But 20 is way too many. That is why we built the new mount.

Jim

I Bloom

12-19-2007, 02:04 PM

I am OK that our $17,500 camera, with known issues that are now addressed, competes favorably with a $250K camera. I am keen to see the same test with our new cameras.

Jim

I think a direct comparison is like a boxing match where one contender has a baseball bat.

I don't think I'm ever going to use an F23 because of the outragious cost, so I want to know as much as possible about Red so that I know exactly how to use it.

One thing I'm trying to understand, is how sharp we should expect the image to be at 4K. I was demoing Redcine with my footage for a post house yesterday, and they commented that the footage looked beautiful, but anytime we saw it Full res high 1:1, I cringed because the comment was "It looks soft", even at maximum sharpening. Not something you wan't to here about your dailies. I haven't been able to determine if this is the lenses I'm using, or if I should expect it to look that way, in part because I haven't had the ability to do as many tests as I should. Is this something I'm doing wrong or something inherent in the camera? And does the new configuration affect anything sharpness wise?

Please understand Jim, that I'm not trying to dog on Red when I bring this up. I really would like to have a better understanding so that I can improve my work, and speak knowledgeably to the people I'm working for.

Ian

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 02:07 PM

Really? So that is why I turn to people like Claudio who's reputations I know and see what they have to say.

This is very refreshing to hear. Kinda brings this whole thing down to earth a bit. Thanks.

For me Soderbergh has the biggest reputations here.

Terribly sorry for Claudio and the others...please, without any bad thoughts and degradation,

but Mr. Soderbergh is a real value for me here.

He is Academy Award Winner Director and Cannes Palme d'Or Winner Director/Cinematographer/Editor, etc...

Does any one else here want more authority with doing films with RED now?

Just my 2 cents!

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 02:10 PM

The question you need to ask is "how much difference was there in dynamic range between the F23 and Original RED ONE". Then, a month from now, you can re-ask the same question.

Jim

For now, enough of a difference where in one shot I can see an outline of a building in the background while in the other I must really squint. I will of course love to see the new results in a month, but for now I feel it would undermine Claudio's test not to talk about it. Or should we all keep quiet until next month?

RED:

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/redvsf23/images/A001_C010_071206_0136.jpg

F23:

http://www.claudiomiranda.com/redvsf23/images/reel_001_Downtown_Los_Ang_take_009_camA_0096573.jp g

Finner

12-19-2007, 02:10 PM

Take the number of problems you have heard about, subtract that from 125 (including named cameras) and you will have your answer. About 20 have had collimation issues that we know of. Most of those were just not set up properly. That means 105 have had no issues. But 20 is way too many. That is why we built the new mount.

Jim

I did not mean to sound overly harsh with my statement. It's just after I got burned I e-mailed a bunch of owners and not one of them said their collimation was set right from factory. Stuff happens, oh well. Thing is you guys have gone well above to fix it and others and I appreciate it. I just am hopeing the new mount is as bomb proof as advertised.

Casey Green

12-19-2007, 02:13 PM

Yes, it's too bad Claudio did not have the latest Camera to test with. He did however put in his report that these issues were being addressed and that he would do other tests in the coming months when they are available.

I think the flare pattern shown is unfortunate, since this problem is supposedly fixed already, however, you can only do so much and there are Cameras in the field right now that may exhibit this problem until they are swapped out. So it is valuable information for people.

I would have liked to see the test done with a finished new model Camera, and many of the other existing tests would be great to have been done with them as well, such as LART, but you have to work with what you have at the present time, which is an amazing Camera that is still in beta and about to be upgraded dramatically.

As much as I did not like to see that image of the flare pattern, I think it will only help in the long run, when people can see the difference compared to the new cameras.

Finner was on the right track with what he was saying, in that we should keep in mind that RED is competing with $100,000 - $250,000+ camera systems, but I don't necessarily agree with the notion that we can't expect it to outperform them for this reason or that you get what you pay for and what we have at this price is outstanding for the price.

...but then again, sometimes people say things to get others motivated to prove them wrong. :)

I think with this still being very early on in the RED ONEs life, it still has much room to grow, and in many tests RED has already gone above and beyond the competition.

Jannard

12-19-2007, 02:16 PM

Claudio's opinion is completely valid and important... I think if you read the report and take it is context, it is very accurate. We just need him to test a new camera.

Soderbergh has not had one issue with his older mounts. Resolution has never been a problem, just as with most other tests and shoots. The "footage" that Claudio eluded to is a compilation from many RED shoots done at Plastercity. I think they have their own take on RED and we should hear from them shortly.

One test doesn't really tell you everything. Lots of shooting, under a myriad of conditions, will tell all of us a lot more.

Jim

David Mullen ASC

12-19-2007, 02:16 PM

What is your point, Sanjin? Claudio's opinion on cinematography issues must be less reliable than Soderberg's because Soderberg is more famous???

What about the technical team at RED? They are less famous than Claudio, so by your logic, they must know less than he does about cinematography.

The fact that Soderberg is a famous cinematographer-director does not mean he is the ultimate authority on technical matters related to cinematography. How many Oscars and Cannes awards a director racks up is not a measure of their technical knowledge.

Manfred Lopez

12-19-2007, 02:18 PM

For me Soderbergh has the biggest reputations here.

Terribly sorry for Claudio and the others...please, without any bad thoughts and degradation,

I have tremendous respect for Soderbergh as a director. But even he has been known to place convenience over technical perfection in his images (Full Frontal). But Claudio is all about the image. In the end I guess we need more opinions (until we can get a camera to test ourselves that is :biggrin: ).

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 02:24 PM

Wow here everything goes very fast with this online conversation.

Jim, about darkness in the picture I've got it.

Hope all others too.

About a dynamic range and etc.. I learned from the Swedish test here a lot even without RED in my hands that you can "fine tune" a lot.

Just needs a time to LEARN.

And could be good to think about afeature to have EXPOSURE snap shot enabled

via a tethered connection or even SD card that I saw RED has too,

just for people who want to work more with precise tuning of the picture.

Barend Onneweer

12-19-2007, 02:42 PM

Sheesh Sanjin,

I'm just glad that Jim takes Claudio's experiences (and those of others out there in the field) more serious than you do.

The whole point of these tests is to find out where Red excels, and where it's lacking. What's great about Jim is that (even though it may hurt a bit - I can only imagine having to acknowledge weak spots or oversights in your 'baby') he takes these tests very seriously.

That's why development is constantly being pushed. I'm sure that tests such as Claudio's make Jim want to improve this camera. It's why the first 100 are being replaced. Because Jim (and the team!) did very well, but these direct comparisons in combination with realworld experiences with the first batch make him want to do better.

I'm just saying, although some of the people here won't tolerate any criticism (and are indeed in some state of denial) I'm thrilled that Jim DOES want to hear about it and takes action where possible. Class act, Jim.

Bar3nd

Casey Green

12-19-2007, 02:54 PM

For me Soderbergh has the biggest reputations here.

Terribly sorry for Claudio and the others...please, without any bad thoughts and degradation,

but Mr. Soderbergh is a real value for me here.

He is Academy Award Winner Director and Cannes Palme d'Or Winner Director/Cinematographer/Editor, etc...

Does any one else here want more authority with doing films with RED now?

Just my 2 cents!

?????

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 02:55 PM

What is your point, Sanjin? Claudio's opinion on cinematography issues must be less reliable than Soderberg's because Soderberg is more famous???

David, what ever you think about Soderberg and his famousness but he BOOKED his next project with RED (a full RED feature film).

What about the technical team at RED? They are less famous than Claudio, so by your logic, they must know less than he does about cinematography.

David, Soderbergh is not in any competition here, not with RED Team nor even with Claudio Miranda.

He is by his own.

He is a famous and somebody that has a full respect from all parts of the INDUSTRY and beyond in USA and abroad (worldwide, global as you like it).

The fact that Soderberg is a famous cinematographer-director does not mean he is the ultimate authority on technical matters related to cinematography. How many Oscars and Cannes awards a director racks up is not a measure of their technical knowledge.

David, yeahh, what can I say now?

Nobody is having any authority in cinematography.

But Mr. Soderbergh did two features with RED and will do again his own next project with RED.

He did not place any doubts about RED (dynamic range, other issues, etc.) like some of other guys here.

He is able to see even BEYOND a present reality.

And do not forget that Soderbergh shot his last own feature before RED with Sony F900 Cinealta (BUBBLE (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0454792/)).

That it is about power of CHARISMA that Sodebergh has.

He can take a risk with RED and leads you/us to the new horizons that RED will offer to all of you/us.

He can SHOW his result (with RED) very soon in a theater release, DVD, HD DVD etc...

That is what I mean when talk about Soderbergh but not (a cheap) taking about a fact that

he is JUST a famous or NOT ENOUGH CRITIC(al) to RED.

And Soderbergh already said very clear:

"For me,this is Year Zero: I feel I could call

up Film on the phone and say,

'I've met someone'" (http://www.red.com/)

So if other guys met F900, F23, F35, Genesis, D20, FILM, etc.. I do not care at all.

I wanted this for years (something like RED) and I do believe in RED and RED Team

that can deal and handle all challenges of RED development to finish this project to

the POSSIBLE perfection for the price of US $ 17.500.

Adrian T.

12-19-2007, 02:58 PM

Come on, Sanjin. Get a good bottle of RED wine and leave us alone here.

Jan Reiff

12-19-2007, 03:05 PM

i only know the f23. it s a fantastic, very expensive camera. you can create great results for theatres, commercials.
i did not shoot with red, but well, i will have one in 3 month (or 4? doesn´t matter)...
but i have to say, i am watching all these tests, and i don´t see really a difference between red and the other high end cams (only in the prize, and here i have to thank jim and his team so very much). often i see the best images are actually from red. i think they play on the same level. some results are good, some bad (like the others - i didn´t like miami vice, but zodiac was awesome, so there is no final judgement about the digital cams possible in my opinion)
maybe i´am more interested in a good script than in technical aspects, that only professionals can see. every camera has its pros and contras, story and drama will define the quality of your movie (and the compositing and lightning and and...) and what i have seen from red, and now with this awesome improvements of the new series, the red - cam will be a perfect tool to narrate good stories in great quality. the first to be asked for the perfect image should be: where is the drama of my story. directing, emotion, acting... and not, where is my hundred pixel more or less...
red is on the very right way, because the team is able to listen to the user, the team is loving their own product. and this is the most important thing for me to buy the camera.

Barend Onneweer

12-19-2007, 03:07 PM

He is able to see even BEYOND a present reality.

I almost peed my pants. Why would anyone want to shoot using a camera for what it will be in the future?

I'm sure Soderberg shoots Red because of what it delivers right now - not next week, next month or next year.

Jim on the other hand is the man that sees beyond a present reality. And is stimulated to do so partly because of tests like Claudio's.

Anyway, this thread has turned into a pile of nonsense. I'm out.

Adrian T.

12-19-2007, 03:08 PM

[...]i have to thank jum and his team [...]

Jim is the name, not Jum. :clown2:

*ducks*

edit: ok, you fixed it already.

David Mullen ASC

12-19-2007, 03:10 PM

You're the one bringing up the ridiculous comparison between Claudio Miranda and Soderberg, which is apples and oranges at best. I don't see the reason to even make the comparison -- it's not like we're comparing a posted Soderberg test to a posted Claudio Miranda test where they got different results.

Soderberg's decision to use the RED or the F900 on "Bubble" tells us nothing about dynamic range other than it was acceptable for his particular project.

By your logic, because he used the Canon XL1 on "Full Frontal" the resolution, dynamic range, color, compression, et al. of that camera is good enough for any filmmaker -- afterall, it was good enough for Soderberg! Or the F900 on "Bubble" -- he trusted that camera for that movie, so I guess the image problems with the F900 are imaginary. We don't need better quality than the F900 because Soderberg used it on "Bubble" so it must be good enough for everyone, Claudio included. I don't see why we should even test these cameras, we should just shoot whatever camera Soderberg is using at the time. I mean, jeez, if he shoots his next movie on Super-16, does that mean now that Super-16 is better than 35mm or the RED?

There's no reason to be pitting Claudio's opinion against Soderberg. I doubt even Soderberg would want you to do that!

Anyone who follows Soderberg's career closely can see that he likes to experiment with different formats -- that doesn't mean that the particular format he picks is the height of technology, only to be bumped by the next format he picks. He shot his second RED movie on anamorphic lenses -- does that mean that Soderberg has decided that spherical lenses aren't good enough anymore? That anamorphic lenses are "better"?

Adrian T.

12-19-2007, 03:13 PM

You're the one bringing up the ridiculous comparison between Claudio Miranda and Soderberg, which is apples and oranges at best. I don't see the reason to even make the comparison -- it's not like we're comparing a posted Soderberg test to a posted Claudio Miranda test where they got different results.

Soderberg's decision to use the RED or the F900 on "Bubble" tells us nothing about dynamic range other than it was acceptable for his particular project.

By your logic, because he used the Canon XL1 on "Full Frontal" the resolution, dynamic range, color, compression, et al. of that camera is good enough for any filmmaker -- afterall, it was good enough for Soderberg! Or the F900 on "Bubble" -- he trusted that camera for that movie, so I guess the image problems with the F900 are imaginary. We don't need better quality than the F900 because Soderberg used it on "Bubble" so it must be good enough for everyone, Claudio included. I don't see why we should even test these cameras, we should just shoot whatever camera Soderberg is using at the time. I mean, jeez, if he shoots his next movie on Super-16, does that mean now that Super-16 is better than 35mm or the RED?

There's no reason to be pitting Claudio's opinion against Soderberg. I doubt even Soderberg would want you to do that!

Relax, David. Sanjin is a known troublemaker. Just ignore some of his posts. :wink:

Casey Green

12-19-2007, 03:20 PM

I agree - Sanjin has been temporarily banned at times for his behavior. Please, David, do not get too caught up in his remarks, ridiculous as they sometimes are.

After a quick look at his history, many times, he ends up stating at the end of an argument... "well, let's leave it to the experts." or someting similar. Also, he edits his initial posts many times, days after, which alters the meaning of the conversation.

Ignoring him seems to be the best route at this point, which is what I will be doing.

So, where were we?

David Mullen ASC

12-19-2007, 03:26 PM

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 03:28 PM

David are you in competition with Soderbergh because he is also a director?

My Sodebergh to Miranda comparison was in a way that Soderbergh did not complain (in public) about RED, for sure he did his list of issues to the RED Team.

Simply it is about a PROPAGANDA.

Any PROPAGANDA has close relation to POLITICS.

David, I see your POLITICS here as confronted to RED and also to the DIRECTORS.

I read about your feelings to the director's opinion in some of your posts before.

I'm sorry about that.

If something is wrong with RED then the RED Team knows this perfect and they are paid for that.

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 03:41 PM

I have a knee-jerk reaction against the cult of celebrityhood that affects even filmmaking, where the opinions of famous people are granted an excess amount of weight. Works fine for marketing purposes, but when it comes to evaluating technical data, I'd take, let's say, Graeme Nattress' opinion over Soderberg's... or any professional camera assistant's opinion on issues relating to a camera assistant's domain.

Sorry David but I can't talk with you in this way.

It looks for me like a Technocrats vs Intellectuals sort of discussion.

Even Technocrats vs Artists.

Sorry for other guys who complain about my posts but they do not have so much or anything valuable to say.

They are just taking a side.

That's very clear about all of them.

And is a group again.

Emmanuel Cambier

12-19-2007, 03:43 PM

Congratulations to Claudio.
Congratulations to Jim.

Now what about those taillights disapearing in the Red footage?
Is it a classic case of overexposure, or something weird going on in the red channel?

Emmanuel

Graeme Nattress

12-19-2007, 03:47 PM

Thanks David :-)

I'm obviously very biased about RED, but that's because the bits I've designed are designed to work they way I think about things. But remember, I used to shoot when I had time, and still shoot a lot of stills and the theory is tempered by reality, and by experience, and art too. All of these things have to come together to make a camera, and make it good, and after seeing some of the things I've seen shot on RED, I'm confident we've got a good camera that keeps on getting better.

Camera comparisons are never easy. Not least when you can't use identical lenses with identical apertures, and you're not producing the same size image with the same FOV. All they can do is add to the vast amount of data available, and you, the intelligent observer have to take all this information and knowledge and let it help and guide you to a better image.

Making the best possible image is not easy. It's never been easy, and if it were, where would the art be then? And you can't just rely on art, you've got to experiment, and apply science and mathematics (yes, ouch, you can't ignore them) and learn and keep learning, and keep shooting. That's why I never stop thinking of new ways to get better images from our sensor.

Graeme

Graeme Nattress

12-19-2007, 03:49 PM

To answer Emmanuel, I don't know and can't answer without seeing the RAW data. At least with RED, we can analyse the RAW and see what was going on, knowing it's a record of what the sensor saw.

Graeme

Ruairi Robinson

12-19-2007, 03:57 PM

Sorry for other guys who complain about my posts but they do not have so much or anything valuable to say.

/ignore

David Mullen ASC

12-19-2007, 04:05 PM

My Sodebergh to Miranda comparison was in a way that Soderbergh did not complain (in public) about RED, for sure he did his list of issues to the RED Team.

Simply it is about a PROPAGANDA.

I don't have the same passion for propaganda that you seem to have. I'd prefer an open discussion.

Leave the propaganda to the marketing team at RED, unless you're angling for a job in that department.

Simply put, problems don't get solved if no one ever talks about them so you're ultimately doing RED more harm than good by attempting to silence any criticism in pursuit of this RED propaganda agenda. It's critical people like Claudio that push manufacturers to make better equipment.

Finding a black dot in the center of the sun in a test doesn't have to be a big political issue, it doesn't have to be about "technocrats vs. intellectuals" everytime someone points the RED camera into the sun and posts the results. Most of us would rather leave politics out of this and concentrate on learning how to use the camera and how it possibly could be improved.

Jannard

12-19-2007, 04:17 PM

Everyone who has shot RED and given feedback is valuable. We have found issues and problems from Peter Jackson's "Crossing" movie (2 day shoot on 2 prototypes) to Soderbergh's 2 features shot on prototypes. The fact that Soderbergh didn't have one issue with our mount in 6 months of shooting didn't stop us from making a better one. Feedback from Steven and his AC were taken just as seriously as that from the "Wanted" shoot, PJ's tests, Claudio's test, our customer's experiences, our own experience, etc. The name on the suggestion doesn't matter. The information does.

We are only a couple of months in from shipping our 1st (not done) cameras and I have to say that, for a very small team, we are listening, changing, improving and advancing this project along at breakneck speed. I have said all along that we are not done... and probably will never be. What matters is that we are listening to ideas and feedback and making improvements while you sleep.

We have a great foundation for our platform. But in a few days, the platform will get elevated significantly. I want ALL our customers to feel like this is the best thing they have ever invested in (me included). You'll have to kill us to stop that from happening.

Jim

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 04:27 PM

I don't have the same passion for propaganda that you seem to have. I'd prefer an open discussion.

Leave the propaganda to the marketing team at RED, unless you're angling for a job in that department.

Simply put, problems don't get solved if no one ever talks about them so you're ultimately doing RED more harm than good by attempting to silence any criticism in pursuit of this RED propaganda agenda. It's critical people like Claudio that push manufacturers to make better equipment.

Finding a black dot in the center of the sun in a test doesn't have to be a big political issue, it doesn't have to be about "technocrats vs. intellectuals" everytime someone points the RED camera into the sun and posts the results. Most of us would rather leave politics out of this and concentrate on learning how to use the camera and how it possibly could be improved.

Open way (mostly) of doing things (thinking, complaining, criticizing, etc.,...) in this field of a PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT (a product desperately we wanted to have) is all new for us (worldwide).

And there are fights too.

Who is right and who is wrong we can get it when a product show up and improve the features.

And forums like this are also part of marketing and propaganda to the related products.

All is a part of the game.

By the way the sun black dot we had seen a long ago on this forum if I remember well.

It's not only about a silence and loudness.

It's about that similar feelings like if you would trust a "girl" you have met/got or not.

You can do a million complaints to this girl but that does not help.

It is something very fragile and gentle.

It needs a lot of understanding and patience.

It's about LOVE.

As Soderbergh clearly said that he met somebody.

SHE was RED ONE.

A femme fatale.

chuck colburn

12-19-2007, 04:28 PM

I've been thru some new products from inception to release and I must say this whole RED camera thingybob is quite spectacular. The time frame is astounding and the size of the in house staff (from what I understand) is even more amazing. Where do you find such people and what do you do to them to make them perform like they do? lol

Ruairi Robinson

12-19-2007, 04:37 PM

Open way (mostly) of doing things (thinking, complaining, criticizing, etc.,...) in this field of a PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT (a product desperately we wanted to have) is all new for us (worldwide).

And there are fights too.

Who is right and who is wrong we can get it when a product show up and improve the features.

And forums like this are also part of marketing and propaganda to the related products.

All is a part of the game.

By the way the sun black dot we had seen a long ago on this forum if I remember well.

It's not only about a silence and loudness.

It's about that similar feelings like if you would trust a "girl" you have met/got or not.

You can do a million complaints to this girl but that does not help.

It is something very fragile and gentle.

It needs a lot of understanding and patience.

It's about LOVE.

As Soderbergh clearly said that he met somebody.

SHE was RED ONE.

A femme fatale.

It just never ends. Jesus.

redrum

12-19-2007, 04:41 PM

One thing I'm trying to understand, is how sharp we should expect the image to be at 4K.
Sharper than a "true" 2K, but not 4K's worth. It's a bayer sensor, and a bayer typically loses about 33% due to the OLPF, the anti-aliasing filter, and the demosaicing process. The sensor is 4K in black and white, but in color it's probably about 3K. For example, the little HV20 claims a 1920x1080 sensor but it isn't. It's a 3-megapixel sensor, but they're factoring in the res loss from the de-bayer process to deliver a legit 1920x1080.

Red's a little different in that the sensor is a tad larger than 4K (4.5K) so that offsets some res loss I'd bet. Losing 1/3 to the demosaic you should end up with about 3K worth of usable res. Which should still surpass anything else, including a 2K F23, and should still go toe to toe with a 4K Dalsa because the Dalsa's limited by the same type of things (anti-aliasing and single-sensor bayer pattern).

I haven't been able to determine if this is the lenses I'm using, or if I should expect it to look that way, in part because I haven't had the ability to do as many tests as I should.
Lenses could definitely be part of the problem, but a modern cine lens should eliminate that. Run on over to Abel and put your Red on Mitch Gross's test bench and shoot a Putora using some Master Primes. That'll tell you (and everyone else, when you post the pictures) what the true max res is. While you're at it, test the 2K windowed mode too. And go download some of the Dalsa sample frames, your stuff should be as sharp as theirs.

Finner

12-19-2007, 04:42 PM

Ruairi

There is an easy way to deal with it. Just click on Sanjin's Avatar and then click on the add him to your ignore list. Then bingo all of his posts disapear. A lot of us wish reduser would just kick him off for good but for now I have found putting him on my ignore list as the best option.

Ruairi Robinson

12-19-2007, 04:47 PM

Jaime Vallés

12-19-2007, 04:49 PM

Thanks for posting the results, Claudio! Very interesting and enlightening. And it's great to hear that many of the issues are already being addressed by the folks at RED, so the next cameras should look even better. I look forward to seeing comparisons between the old and new versions of RED.

I love that my future camera is being compared favorably to the highest-end Sony CineAlta camera available!

LEON

12-19-2007, 04:51 PM

Nils Ruinet

12-19-2007, 05:10 PM

Graeme Nattress

12-19-2007, 05:39 PM

Mitch Deoudes

12-19-2007, 05:40 PM

Hopefully this post doesn't get lost in the flame war. I notice that nobody's discussing the following:

Rolling Shutter. On the footage I have shot. When the camera hit some rough ground (heavy vibration), the buildings appeared to expand and collapse. This could be a problem when shooting effects with fast moving objects.

I've seen rolling-shutter-related artifacts with photo flashes first hand, but I've yet to witness what claudio describes above. This sounds like a potentially serious issue, assuming "heavy vibration" means something one might experience by just driving around in a car. Would a similar artifact occur during extremely fast pans, etc?

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere.

mitch

p.s. - don't feed the trolls.

redrum

12-19-2007, 05:45 PM

Redrum, you forget though that all cameras with all kinds of sensors need low pass filters to avoid aliasing. It's especially important with bayer sensors as they will chroma alias if you don't. That means no camera should measure it's true resolution, but should always produce a lower figure.

Right, got caught up in the demosaic to the neglect of the other factors (my bad) but yes every system needs to have some manner of low-pass to cut off the highest frequencies, and that means they all register lower than their rated pixel counts.

I still say Red's going to be sharper than anyone else currently out because you start out with the most information so even though things like demosaicing are going to chop into your overall total, you're still going to have more left over at the end. Has Red stated any actual performance results for sharpness? My guess is 3K. Maybe if you someday make a super-Red with three Mysterium sensors and a beamsplitter, then you could have raw 4K @ 4:4:4, which might even approach the limit of human vision to resolve detail depending on how large your projection is?

redrum

12-19-2007, 05:48 PM

This sounds like a potentially serious issue, assuming "heavy vibration" means something one might experience by just driving around in a car.
It's called "wobble" and it plagues little consumer-cams, might not be such a big issue with Red because it's so heavy and isn't likely going to be put in the same scenarios.

Would a similar artifact occur during extremely fast pans, etc?
No, fast pans will make images lean. The wobbly jello effect happens in vibration. No idea how much the Red might be affected by it.

LEON

12-19-2007, 05:49 PM

Thanks David :-)

Making the best possible image is not easy. It's never been easy, and if it were, where would the art be then? And you can't just rely on art, you've got to experiment, and apply science and mathematics (yes, ouch, you can't ignore them) and learn and keep learning, and keep shooting. That's why I never stop thinking of new ways to get better images from our sensor.

Graeme

Dear Graeme, even with those bad comparing conditions, one thing only bother me a little. Have you seen the night shots with high buildings after sunset ?
Well, it's a detail but I found the red lights at the back of the cars were (on the shot made with RED)
very "white", dont you think so ?
I do not have this trouble with CANON 20D.
Do you ?

Graeme Nattress

12-19-2007, 05:53 PM

Issue with any kind of prism is getting lenses for the camera - especially for S35 sized sensor.

I don't think it's easy to see the full resolution a RED can produce now, unless you're sitting very near the screen. That's based upon what I saw at our IBC screenings and back then the demosaic was not as advanced as it is now, and getting better all the time.

I think we've said we're about 75% measured resolution, or just over 3k. That can improve to an extent, and the perception of it can improve too, but we're getting very close to the amount of detail the OLPF is letting through, and I'm very wary of the effects of aliasing on motion....

Graeme

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 05:53 PM

RedRum Thanks a lot.

I was waiting for these kind of input: raw 4K @ 4:4:4.

P.S. glad to see that all those X, Y,...are grouping again.:)

Graeme Nattress

12-19-2007, 06:01 PM

Actually Leon I do. A quick look through my library found this:

2273

Graeme

LEON

12-19-2007, 06:04 PM

Actually Leon I do. A quick look through my library found this:

2273

Graeme

you have great sense of humor, I am sorry to bother you!
Good work and hope to meet you one day !
Jean Luc Leon

Sanjin Jukic

12-19-2007, 06:28 PM

Jean Luc Leon,

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/place-charles-de-gaulle.jpg

hope to meet you here soon and "discuss" all about the RED.:ninja: :clown2:

RED = Nouvelle Vague

redrum

12-19-2007, 06:55 PM

Issue with any kind of prism is getting lenses for the camera - especially for S35 sized sensor.
For mortals, maybe. But for you guys? Surely some genius solution is underway... :shiftyph34r:

I think we've said we're about 75% measured resolution, or just over 3k.
Okay, so about what I thought... that makes sense, and it's still leaps beyond 2K.

That can improve to an extent, and the perception of it can improve too
Which is the really cool part of recording the raw data is that you wizards can even improve the look of already recorded footage!

Thanks for the corrections and the answers. Good stuff.

Finner

12-19-2007, 06:57 PM

The cameras lattitude comparisons turned out as I had thought.

Sony advertises over 12 stops but most rate it at 11 or so useable stop range.

Every high level DP that has shot red has placed it in the 9.5 or so stop range.

From the compareable stills on Claudios site I would judge the f23 about 1.5-2 stops better. The color of the f23 seems to hold better also. I am interested to see how the new shipping reds test out.

Problems I see.

1. The red dot flares are a problem and though some people that have never even touched a camera say that it has been fixed I have never actually seen any red employee post that the camera no longer does it (I could be wrong on this as they may have). A comment from a red employee on if the camera no longer does this would be good.

2. The black line vertical flair I do believe that I read somewhere that a red employee said that new cameras no longer do this. It would be great to get confirmation on that.

3.
Rolling Shutter. On the footage I have shot. When the camera hit some rough ground (heavy vibration), the buildings appeared to expand and collapse. This could be a problem when shooting effects with fast moving objects.
This is a quote from Claudios test page and I have not seen this before so it would be good to get an example of the problem and information on if the new cameras no longer do it?

Jannard

12-19-2007, 07:01 PM

Why don't we just wait a few days and test the new cameras...? Then it won't matter what anyone says.

Jim

Finner

12-19-2007, 07:03 PM

A new test would be great to see Jim.

Any chance you could answer the 3 questions I posted above?

Thanks

Floris Liesker

12-19-2007, 09:02 PM

I'm a little concerned about the clipping of the taillights too. This makes the image somewhat cold and unnatural to me. I've seen this more in red footage, white clipping of strongly coloured lights.
Strangely Red does display strongly coloured LED light quite well, even when it clips, like the orange LEDS on the back of the bus, image 14 on http://www.claudiomiranda.com/redvsf23/index.html

This red-turning-into-white happens as soon as the red channel clips.
It seems something weird happens in the sensor or the debayering that makes green and blue channel clip along with the red, making it white.

Strangely the blue channel of the F23 is very black in the taillights, making it a very warm orange colour. This must be due to some DSP I guess, but I like the result of it.

Is this an issue that has been looked into or maybe will be in the future?
Maybe something that can be done in Redcine while debayering?

I Bloom

12-19-2007, 09:37 PM

I'm just hoping that at some point we start talking about the cameras that are in peoples hands. If we are constantly comparing the real cameras to the theoretical future cameras than we can theoretically delude ourselves eternally. At some point we have to start learning the boundaries of what we have, that's what I'm hungry for, that's why I'm here.

IBloom

Jannard

12-19-2007, 09:51 PM

A new test would be great to see Jim.

Any chance you could answer the 3 questions I posted above?

Thanks

As soon as you change your avatar...

Jim

Gavin Greenwalt

12-19-2007, 09:51 PM

Kevin Lang

12-19-2007, 10:10 PM

Very nice work David! I see you worked with Dan Myrick he is a old friend of mine from the Blair Witch days.

Evin Grant

12-19-2007, 10:16 PM

Everything else being equal I think it's worth noting just how similar the images in Claudio's test are. Yes there are differences in DR and some other small issues but I'm still flabbergasted by how similar this $25,000 camera (Kit price) is to this $250,000 camera. Including shadow noise level and of course detail, which is actually better on the Red along with real 35mm DOF.

Finner

12-19-2007, 10:23 PM

As soon as you change your avatar...

Jim

At your wish sir.

Lost the leather jacket (black leather just is not as hip as it use to be). Also went with a seasonal flair. Hope you enjoy it.

Now about those questions.

Shawn Nelson

12-19-2007, 10:35 PM

Lol, Jim and his penchant for ambiguous elipses... :-)

Jannard

12-19-2007, 10:44 PM

I think it is time for me to go offline for a bit...

Jim

Finner

12-19-2007, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jannard
That was clever... I guess my best response to your new avatar is... "go read my old posts on this subject". All your questions have already been answered. :-)

Jim

Which posts of your 1,229 would you suggest?

Come on Jim cut me a break, the 3 would be quick to answer.

Jannard

12-19-2007, 11:16 PM

1. Fixed with OLPF change
2. Fixed
3. Don't know what he is looking at since I haven't seen the footage.

Now I'm going offline. Happy holidays to all.

Jim

Finner

12-19-2007, 11:21 PM

Thanks Jim.

When the Hoff comes to get #993 I have a big black speedo hug for ya.

Big happy holidays right back at ya.

Warren Kommers

12-20-2007, 10:05 AM

Although RED has a huge price advantage, 35mm DOF(which is huge), and more resolution, the F23 clearly has some things going for it at this point. Fortunately I do work on productions that can afford F23's and 35mm so the price thing isn't the biggest thing for me. I guess I never really understood how beta RED really was. It's cool that it was tested in the public this way and also very productive in terms of the feedback it generated for RED. This may end up being the biggest assest the camera has. The community.

However I hope this new camera can ball with that 11 stops the f23 has on Figueroa in Claudio's test. It looks good! I'm rooting for RED all the way though.

Although I'm curious what the threshold is for dynamic range, noise, and other image charcteristics until it just comes down to what's inherent in the sensor.

Also is it impossible to make the rolling shutter edge softer? Like a soft wipe in a transition? I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest that.

Philip Powell

12-20-2007, 10:37 AM

Warren Kommers

12-20-2007, 11:03 AM

"• Noise is far less and when you do see it it looks much more pleasing."

This surprised me as well. Especially follwing the general rule of thumb with sensor size and relative noise size of 4k to 1080.

Evin Grant

12-20-2007, 11:29 AM

The second to last two frames of the test really show the difference in noise characteristics. Personally I don't see the f23 being cleaner, just having a tighter grain/noise structure. The Red does display a bit more random blue channel noise but this may be fixable in processing. I've seen similar low light footage that's cleaner before.

Gavin Greenwalt

12-20-2007, 12:08 PM

I've noticed the red channel clip 'early' in lots and lots of shots. I think it just goes with the territory of having a green biased sensor. Often the data is still 'discoverable' in the red channel but you have to throw the white balance completely out of wack to find it.

If you have to boost the red channel by a stop to balance the light loss at the filter you're losing a stop of latitude.

(The biggest reason why I want a REDStream color mode)

I asked Mr Miranda specifically about this in an email and he said that the red channel was clipped in the raw data and was unrecoverable in the tail lights. So while it is something you have to be doubly careful of when checking your exposure (remember you lose a stop of highlight information in the reds under many lighting temperatures after WB) this was not a case where white balance was causing the clip.

Adrian T.

12-20-2007, 12:12 PM

I asked Mr Miranda specifically about this in an email and he said that the red channel was clipped in the raw data and was unrecoverable in the tail lights. So while it is something you have to be doubly careful of when checking your exposure (remember you lose a stop of highlight information in the reds under many lighting temperatures) this was not a case where white balance was causing the clip.

That's exactly why we need histogram and false color indicators based on RAW data instead of RGB preview data. Then we could detect such a clipping quite easily.

David Mullen ASC

12-20-2007, 04:23 PM

I Bloom

12-20-2007, 05:27 PM

I really enjoyed reading Claudio's conclusions. The only thing that surpised me a bit was his note on noise.

Under advantages of the F23 he wrote
"• Noise is far less and when you do see it it looks much more pleasing."

This kind of shocks me, considering how the Red is often sited as being so low noise Plus, several have suggested how easy it is to pull a key with as it's so low noise. I expected quite a bit of what he had to say, with dynamic range etc., but not the noise comment.

12:1 compression of noise does not look so good, since truly random noise is mathematically impossible to compress losslessly.

Hear is what a piece of Redcode looks like from a capped body:
How I created this image: I put the body cap on Red #87, (FYI this camera has not been updated) rolled for a few seconds.
Opened the R3D in RedAlert Exported 4K Tiff:
ISO 320,Kelvin 5600, Tint 0, Rec709, Exposure -.4, Saturation 1, Contrast 0, Brightness 0, RGB 1, Curve Flat
Opened Tiff in photoshop,
Applied levels 12, 1.0, 19
Cropped off a random little piece, scaled 400% with nearest neighbor, exported jpeg.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1198199631.jpg

As a visual reference I created an almost black 16 bit file in Photoshop and used the gaussian noise filter to create a similar looking histogram, then I applied the same levels and scaling.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1198199790.jpg

Okay, so what are we looking at, well noise on the Mysterium is going through transformations, first its being compressed, and then it's being debayered. So it doesn't look like the straight up 4:4:4 RGB noise you are expecting, it looks kind of clumpy. I think this is what Claudio is refering to when he says it's "not as pleasing".

Another thing to consider is that there is no signal here just noise. I think if you give Redcode an underlying signal it might yeild alot more pleasing results. The unpleasing noise appears to only be an issue in night exteriors where the image must be pushed hard and their is a ton of negative space.

Everything is a trade off. The F23 versus Red test is not totally fair since Red is compressing 12:1 plus bayer pattern and the F23 is not (Am I right?). A better test would be Red vs. Cineform compressed F23 footage. Or F23 versus uncompressed Red from the future optical Raw port.

I think it's clear that the noise level on both cameras is in fact extremely low.

IBloom

Jannard

12-20-2007, 05:56 PM

We still have some tricks up our sleeves... remember that we are new at this stuff. To be compared favorably, at this point in our development, with the F23 is a good thing. These tests also show us that we need to continue to improve, which is our intention. The F23 has a 2/3" sensor and uses B4 lenses. That can't change (until Sony releases the F35 for $350,000). Our image can change and will continually get better. The "Christmas Cameras" prove that. And that isn't the end of it.

We consider the F23 and Genesis to be the primary digital competition at this point. If we are in the game this early on, and at $17,500... we are doing our job. But it isn't done yet.

Jim

Warren Kommers

12-20-2007, 06:25 PM

But what good would that do? You don't expose a night exterior scene for the bright red tail lights in the shot (unless they are big in frame), you expose to get max information all around. Underexposing another stop or so would have ruined the night shots; I'd rather live with the red lights clipping in that case.

Mos Def David. Its trouble in film as well. However in a film DI you can select that strong red color and bring it down individually because there is information still there.

Sometimes Ive been lighting lately with intentionally stronger colors so they are easier to control individually in CC.

Warren Kommers

12-20-2007, 06:41 PM

It is heavy competition Jim and you guys are looking good in many areas. It does seem like there should be more to be dug out of that sensor.

I Bloom

12-20-2007, 07:40 PM

One thing I'd contend with Claudio's conclusion is that he puts the 12:1 compression in the disadvantages column. For everyone but the top tier, that can handle uncompressed 2K, that belongs in the other catagory.

IMO, 12:1 onboard compression is Red's main advantage.

IBloom

David Mullen ASC

12-20-2007, 07:47 PM

Well, if he's used to recording the Viper uncompressed to S-Two digital mags, then what would be the REDCODE compression level to get to the same data rate for 12-bit RAW 4K Bayer? You figure that a Bayer image is already a 3:1 form of data compression, and 4K RGB would be 4 times the data of 2K RGB, so... what, a 2:1 REDCODE compression of the RED would bring things down to something similar what the Viper sends out uncompressed, if Claudio wanted to keep using S-Two? Maybe a few selectable compression rates would be a good idea, like 12:1, 6:1, 2:1, and uncompressed?

C.H.Haskell

12-20-2007, 08:03 PM

Thanks for testing Claudio...the more we understand about the beast and bring issues to the surface then the more likely RED works to solves them...Thanks RED.

Have a good holiday everyone.

Mitch Deoudes

12-21-2007, 12:48 AM

It's called "wobble" and it plagues little consumer-cams, might not be such a big issue with Red because it's so heavy and isn't likely going to be put in the same scenarios.

No, fast pans will make images lean. The wobbly jello effect happens in vibration. No idea how much the Red might be affected by it.

Thanks for the terminology - google turned up a lot of good info. (You'll have to excuse my igorance in this case - I'm originally from VFX-land, and am used to getting my footage as scanned film plates!) Aside from the various threads on reduser, which can be a slog to sift through, IBloom gives a good overview here: http://www.redhax.net/wiki/Understanding_the_Rolling_Shutter_Artifacts

Another good primer here (with footage): http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

And alarmist and non-alarmist threads (with footage) here: http://www.ssontech.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=478
and here: http://prolost.blogspot.com/2007/05/hv20s-rolling-shutter.html

I think I'd have to disagree with you about why Red would be immune, however. It sounds to me like the only saving factor would be radically higher readout/reset speeds on the chip (higher w.r.t. the consumer cams you mention). No doubt the Mysterium is faster than a chip you'd find in a consumer-grade camera - but given its 60Hz rate... maybe not radically faster?

Perhaps larger video-heads than myself could answer: would these artifacts be lessened by shooting at 2K (thereby effectively doubling the speed at which the entire image is read/reset)?

I'd try this test myself, but tomorrow's the last day of our shoot, and I'm guessing they won't want to halt production for an hour or so while I run around shaking the camera violently and whirling it in circles.

Álex Montoya

12-21-2007, 12:59 AM

We've seen an example of a very fast horizontal pan where no vertical leaning was discernible so I guess the RED is suitable for most uses-

I Bloom

12-21-2007, 01:06 AM

Perhaps larger video-heads than myself could answer: would these artifacts be lessened by shooting at 2K (thereby effectively doubling the speed at which the entire image is read/reset)?

The readout speed might be quadrupled at 2K windowed, but maybe its doubled. I'm trying to devise and experiment using a strobe that could determine the exact readout period, similar to checking the timing belt on an engine.

Mitch Deoudes

12-21-2007, 01:38 AM

Álex Montoya

12-21-2007, 01:48 AM

IMO, 12:1 onboard compression is Red's main advantage.

Totally subscribe that. What good is to have an affordable UHD image acquiring system if you can't pay the editing system?

Let them have their RAW port. I'm more than happy with REDCODE (though the option to slightly vary the bitrate is a very good thing).

Emmanuel Cambier

12-21-2007, 02:48 AM

Mathieu Ghekiere

12-21-2007, 05:06 AM

Only now I've seen this thread, pitty the test has been taken offline.
Seems like it was a valuable test, even though it will be updated soon (because of the new RED camera's)

I Bloom

12-21-2007, 07:56 AM

Nice one, ibloom. Let me know if you'd like a hand with your tests - I'm in Manhattan. (Given the speeds involved, it seems like you'd want something along the lines of those LED shutter-speed testers you use with film cameras. But instead of a circle, maybe a grid, with one vertical "on" column that cycled from right->left at some known speed. Then just count the "steps" in your line when filmed with the Red. Easy to build, for someone who didn't drink away all their basic circuit design knowledge like I did. Wow, this is a long parenthetical.)

Oh, and thanks for posting the noise pics further up the thread. It really nicely illustrates the sort of thing you can see in some Red footage, the reason that it's more objectionable than just plain "noise", and the reason why variable compression / uncompressed output would likely be a first step to reducing the issue. (i.e. prior to noise reduction in post.)

The readout period is an extremely short time. I think alternating Red and Green LED's might do the trick, assuming they have a very tight spectrum.

Regarding these noise comparisons, remember this is heavily amplified noise, in order for us to get an idea of the texture, in a normal image, the noise from all of these cameras is barely noticeable.

Just for comparison sake I did the same test with an HVX, I imported a capped frame through FCP and exported a TIFF with Quicktime conversion, then in photoshop I stretched it to 1280 width, cropped it and applied levels 0,1.0,7

HVX 720p DVCProHD:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1198256281.jpg
Redcode:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1198199631.jpg
Photoshop generated reference:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/582_1198199790.jpg

I think by comparison, noise compressed by Redcode appears very pretty. Here's a nice desktop background: http://www.redhax.net/DesktopBackground.jpg

IBloom

Laco Zamba

12-21-2007, 09:14 AM

Claudio's test "Page has been pulled" :-(

Sanjin Jukic

12-21-2007, 09:23 AM

I like Claudio.

He is a really nice and honest guy.

Also he is an excellent DP.

Álex Montoya

12-21-2007, 09:58 AM

This has become too political for my tastes. What I wanted was both parties to benefit and grow from these tests. Again both cameras offer a tremendous value to the industry. There are many shots the Red has an advantage over the F23 and visa versa. These tests are my own and it is my process on how I judge and how I choose to implement them in future jobs. This test only needs to satisfy myself. Everyone has their own tastes and needs to judge what is important for their task at hand.

Claudio

That's too bad.

When he says "this has become too political" what does he mean? I mean, Jim has been very straightforward with him. Maybe Sony has said something?

Barend Onneweer

12-21-2007, 10:09 AM

That's too bad.
When he says "this has become too political" what does he mean? I mean, Jim has been very straightforward with him. Maybe Sony has said something?

My guess is that the way some people here at the forum responded to Claudio's observations is what made him pull the pages. He did the test for himself. He chose to share his findings with us and got bashed for it.

Emmanuel Cambier

12-21-2007, 10:09 AM

Or one of us ?!

Álex Montoya

12-21-2007, 10:14 AM

I don't think so. An overwhelimg majority of us have welcome and juciously commented the tests, even the people at RED.

And I really wouldn't say that Sanjin's poor behaviour could be described as a political issue. In fact, I don't think anyone here pays him too much attention at all.

Jannard

12-21-2007, 11:21 AM

I can't speak for Claudio, but we have talked and he is anxious to shoot a new camera as soon as we can get him one. Claudio is a very good guy, extremely talented, honest and fair.

Jim

Rudi Herbert

12-21-2007, 11:36 AM

Well, that is terrible...

I don't know why Claudio got upset and disspointed through the whole process, but from the get go, I got the impression he was a very easy going, relaxed kind of guy not really prone to explode at the smallest thing. So, whether from this side or "the other" something must have ticked him off enough to decide not to share with us any more. And when a proven professional, who works for productions that can afford WHATEVER they want, film, imax, whatever, decides to test RED, is not for financial reasons, it is simply for interest and passion for the medium. And his findings are an invaluable tool for us all who plan to use RED for our projects. Shunning him away, or contributing to it, is the absolute worst thing we could have done. And whether it was the comments of an isolated member or two, or whatever, guess what, the whole Reduser forum suffers as a result. How stupid of us really...

And by the way, Claudio is the closest thing to the "preferred" cinematographer of who is arguably the most perfectionist, technically demanding, madly obssesive about detail A-list director to be among Hollywood's most sought after. David Fincher, whether you like his work or not, is that rare bird that can afford to pick his work and make technical demands based on his artistic vision that most studios would deny anybody else, but he gets away with whatever he wants. And Claudio, as this man's collaborator, could have given us all so much insight into the world of digital cinema. But of course, the best we could manage was to scare him away. Great going!

One last thing, Claudio Miranda is in my opinion, FAR MORE knowledgeable about cinematography than Soderbergh will ever be, Oscars and Palme d' Ors aside. How many of us could afford to hire him to perform tests on the cmaera we intend to buy or have bought?

David Mullen ASC

12-21-2007, 11:49 AM

It was the attitude of some of the posters here that frustrated him -- the "politics" he was referring to is the attitude of "you can't say anything negative because RED is not just a camera, it's a way of life and you're attacking our way of life so I'm going to undercut your status so people won't listen to you".

That's too much nonsense to deal with when all you want to do is test some cameras and decide which one to use.

Claudio did thank me privately for standing up for him but the truth is that a talented and successful cinematographer like him shouldn't have to fight to get some respect on this forum. In the long term, this site needs more people like him.

Jannard

12-21-2007, 12:11 PM

There is a tendency toward RED moving from "scam to supercam" in less than a year's time. Truth is somewhere in between (closer to supercam I hope). But the RED ONE, with all its great attributes, is not perfect... yet :-) That's why it will "never be done". There will always be things that can be improved and Claudio's test pointed out many of them. We knew about most of them, many of which have been addressed in our new cameras.

It is all about presentation. "RED is a scam and stupid" doesn't work. "RED is perfect and if you say anything that points to a flaw... you are stupid." doesn't work either.

Claudio couldn't have been more fair, given the camera he had at the time, in his assessments. He had no agenda. Just what we like to see. Some are out to demonstrate that RED is a failure... we don't tolerate that. Nor will we support the masking of problems. I was the 1st to point out the over-heating issues Soderbergh had on day one of "Guerrilla". I posted the issue the same day of the shoot. We have been open in our celebrations and open in the flaws. All the flaws do is give us something to fix when we get up the next day.

We embrace tests like Claudio's. And I think he embraces our methodology of listening and fixing. Pretty easy stuff.

Jim

Joe Vinson

12-21-2007, 12:18 PM

I think the moral here is:

Just because you live in Vienna doesn't mean you have to be a Wiener.

Ruairi Robinson

12-21-2007, 12:28 PM

Manfred Lopez

12-21-2007, 12:29 PM

I think that if the moderators on this board have been quick (in the past) to ban anti-red trolls, then they should also do it for pro-red trolls. Fair is fair. People like Claudio and David are the reason I am here... so I can learn from people who's work I can actually see in the movies. Now one is gone. I hope it doesn't happen again.

Gbabymogul

12-21-2007, 12:32 PM

Claudio did thank me privately for standing up for him but the truth is that a talented and successful cinematographer like him shouldn't have to fight to get some respect on this forum. In the long term, this site needs more people like him.Hey, I stood up for Claudio too. Where's my e-mail ?:biggrin: About a year ago when we were discussing who to test the camera i made a list that included Mr.Mullen and Claudio. Two cinematographers who were both familiar and experts with both film and digital and who had a good amount of artistry to go along with their tech knowledge. Dion Beebe was another.

This forum needs professionals who are making movies (on this forum) to balance the theoretical with the practical application of knowledge. It's unfortunate that Claudio doesn't particpate, even though he's a busy dude. What I wanted wasn't a definitive winner to validate my purchase, but to use the tests as a spring board to evaluate the camera and find ways to improve it, both back in Orange County and ON SET, with lights, filters, pan speeds, maybe new hardware etc... All of that is about STORY. For me, that's all I care about - how to acheive the desired asthetics within the budgetary and narrative bailiwick. I really couldn't care about anything other than focus on story (for me). Part of that is the visual poetry of the image so knowing the tech stuff is important until I can afford (and hopefully he's interested) in someone like Claudio.

Imho, leave the marketing to the experts and let's embrace different points of view (as long as they are respectful) because every real world test lets me know what's achievable with what budget, and even more with what talent and passion.

Btw, if Claudio is reading this, i'd ask him to put up the test again, unless he's planning on another test. It's emblematic of good real world testing.

Obrigado.

Barend Onneweer

12-21-2007, 01:08 PM

I think that if the moderators on this board have been quick (in the past) to ban anti-red trolls, then they should also do it for pro-red trolls. Fair is fair.

What he said...

Adam C Lubkin

12-21-2007, 02:10 PM

Claudio, if you're still reading this thread, I hope it's becoming obvious that there's overwhelming support and appreciation here for your input.

Adrian T.

12-21-2007, 02:25 PM

But what good would that do? You don't expose a night exterior scene for the bright red tail lights in the shot (unless they are big in frame), you expose to get max information all around. Underexposing another stop or so would have ruined the night shots; I'd rather live with the red lights clipping in that case.

Well, when you see that the tail lights clip you could try to gel them. Of course this doesn't work with background cars which don't belong to production.

But at least you'd know immediately about the clipping. :biggrin:

BTW, congrats for your promotion to moderator, David! :sorcerer:

Antoine Fabi

12-21-2007, 03:06 PM

Brook Willard

12-21-2007, 03:29 PM

Glad to see the results posted. It was definitely a fair comparison and it's great to see a direct comparison between the cameras. There are definitely a few more stones I'd love to overturn in the F23/RED comparison, but this gave me a great at-a-glance comparison. Claudio is spot-on with the pros and cons of each system as they stand today. I'd love to see an F23 DPX and a comparable R3D file to compare, but that's just my personal curiosity - not a request.

I'm looking forward to both personally testing and reading tests of the current RED bodies versus the newer "X" RED bodies.

David, thanks for remaining the reality check many on this forum need. Welcome to the ranks of the yellow-named nerds. :)

redrum

12-21-2007, 03:41 PM

I think that if the moderators on this board have been quick (in the past) to ban anti-red trolls, then they should also do it for pro-red trolls. Fair is fair.
Well said, the useless fanboy hype doesn't help anything, it's guys like David and Macgregor and Claudio telling us the straight story that helps.

A troll's a troll, doesn't matter which side of the bridge he lives under, and trolls drive away the good folk.

David Mullen ASC

12-21-2007, 04:24 PM

Could you tell me some other movies that used primes vs zooms ?

Well, as I said, Ozu's movies are a good example of what a 50mm prime looks like in Academy 1.37.

Wes Anderson's films like "Rushmore" and "The Royal Tennenbaums" are interesting because they are mostly shot on a 40mm anamorphic lens, but when he puts up a zoom lens, it is for an obvious zooming shot. In "Bottle Rocket", which wasn't anamorphic, I think he used a 27mm lens for most of the movie.

Orson Welles made extensive use of the new (then) 18mm lens when he did "Touch of Evil". A lot of "I am Cuba" also used the 18mm. Frankenheimer used it a lot in the 1960's, on movies like "Seconds" and "Seven Days in May".

Most of the first CinemaScope movie, "The Robe", was shot on a 50mm anamorphic lens, since that's all they had to work with.

This discussion should be moved to some other thread though.